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  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    MattW said:

    First.

    So 42% support.
    28% oppose.
    5% don't know.

    What happened to the other 25% ?

    That's rather a large hole.

    26% "neither support nor oppose", a separate category from "don't know" which presumably reflects mixed feelings.

    Less unexpectedly, there is a similar "no opinion" cohort for statues. Probably lots of people don't really care what happens to statues if it's done in an orderly way. Have we EVER seen anyone actually examining a statue and the plaque explaining who it is?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    tlg86 said:

    nichomar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Motogp riders haven't been doing anything BLM related, as far as I am aware.

    Are there any black participants?
    Don't think so. I suspect that were it not for Lewis Hamilton, F1 wouldn't have done anything either.
    Motorsport is very white.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    tlg86 said:

    stodge said:


    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.

    It's actually very easy and cheap to eat badly as well. It's not just "takeaways", it's the high salt and sugar intake many have.

    One thing that irritates me is watching Ramsay, Oliver and the other "celeb" chefs smother food with salt and pepper as though it were the only thing food ever needed.

    Cheap food doesn't have to be bad food but it often is - supermarket meat is full of water and tasteless but for many that's the only option they have. The supermarkets killed the local butcher, fishmonger and greengrocer and we now pay the price in terms of health issues.

    I was brought up on Farley's Rusks (anyone remember them?). That's why I had and still have a sweet tooth. Chocolate is another problem - it should be classed as a soft drug (it is addictive). We consume 7.6 kilograms (17 lbs) per person per year.

    BiB - That is completely untrue where I live. Sainsbury's does a roaring trade, but so do the local butchers and greengrocers. It's not an either/or.
    At most big supermarket outlets, the majority of the the floor space is for raw ingredients (veg, meat) or for components (canned tomatoes, sauces, spices) etc.

    A big chunk of the rest is drinks, and domestic supplies (eg toilet paper, cleaning stuff)

    The problem is education, and lifestyle.

    For example, cook in bulk and freeze seems to be a minority idea.

    Or have a couple of dishes "on the go" in the fridge at any one time - eg a container of chilli con carne....
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    FPT
    Justin124 said:
    ' Had the SNP not supported the Tories in late March 1979 the Government would not have fallen at that point - and no GE would have taken place on 3rd May. The election would have then been in June or October that year.'

    Carnyx said:

    'Something inevitable came 3-4 months early, at best, in other words.

    Jim Callaghan never blamed the SNP. '

    The difference in timing of the GE could well have proved crucial. A few more weeks or months would have given Callaghan time to enable memories of the Winter of Discontent to fade a fair bit further than had occured by 3rd May. As a result the Tory lead in vote share might well have narrowed to circa 3% rather than the 7% margin Thatcher managed that May. That would likely have meant a Hung Parliament - probably a minority Tory Government supported by the Ulster Unionists. Probably far too weak to increase VAT from 8% to 15% a month later.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    edited July 2020

    tlg86 said:

    nichomar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Motogp riders haven't been doing anything BLM related, as far as I am aware.

    Are there any black participants?
    Don't think so. I suspect that were it not for Lewis Hamilton, F1 wouldn't have done anything either.
    Regardless of the rights & wrongs of BLM, only one black employee out of 1500 seems striking.

    "‘Dorna haven’t done enough’ says MotoGP’s only Black paddock member"

    https://tinyurl.com/y66nwe8n
    It is a sport that is dominated by Spain and Italy, so you wouldn't expect much diversity compared with some other sports.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    A fat slob is still a fat slob whether they're called it or not.

    People have the freedom to make their own choices but they have to take the responsibility for what the consequences are.

    Excessive and inappropriate drinking and smoking are now not tolerated and have restrictions places upon them.

    If obesity is now to be the focus of public health action then we need to consider what action is to be taken to reduce it.

    And we need to accept that includes the stick as well as carrots.
  • I'm probably a wokeist as many would consider me (woke for me is just a term used instead of PC but there you go).

    I would like to see statues of slave traders removed but not in the illegal way it was done.

    I think black lives matter but the organisation itself - especially the UK one - doesn't have aims I agree with and I don't support them.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,280
    A big mystery is the fact that in the 60s and 70s people consumed more calories than they do today but were much thinner.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kle4 said:

    Tres said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Fat shaming is one of the last hold-outs of acceptable everyday bigotry.
    I know AndyJS has in the past suggested height shaming is another one.
    People can't control their height. Most people can control their weight.
    I do think we send out very conflicting messages on weight and body shaming and the like. I think public messaging on eating better and doing more exercise is actually very strong, and ultimately it is down to individuals to do more for themselves and government having yet more awareness campaigns or banning advertising would have limited additional effect. But despite being so strong on the need to be healthy and the health industry being so huge, we also don't want to put so much on individuals to change their own behaviours, which in most cases will be the major factor. I'm not rich now but I used to be a lot poorer (albeit not four yorkshireman poor) and was a lot skinnir then, it isn't inevitable that poor people will be porky.
    Look East, young man

    GDP per capita of Vietnam: $2,300

    GDP per capita of UK: $42,000

    Obesity rate Vietnam: 2.1% (one of the lowest in the world)

    Obesity rate UK: 25% (one of the highest in Europe)

    Covid deaths Vietnam: 0

    Covid deaths UK: 45,738

    Vietnamese food is absolutely delicious, and super healthy, which is not unrelated.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    LadyG said:

    I think if you want to make unhealthy choices then that's up to you.

    And I don't think we should glamourise unhealthy lifestyles.

    But being size 0 isn't the definition of healthy, people are naturally bigger than others.

    I don't think telling people they're fat slobs is helpful at all. It won't help them lose weight or get the help they need (if they need help, perhaps they don't want it and that's their choice).

    If you want to make unhealthy choices that is up to you, to a certain extent, BUT because we have a universal health system, we all have to pay for you, if you are obese and just keep eating, and therefore get diabetes etc. So British society (and other welfare states) can justifiably say "NO, put down the extra pies, please".

    I suggest warnings on food, as with tobacco, and maybe a small tax on junk food, and sugary drinks. It goes against my libertarian instincts but it is clear obesity is now a major threat.

    Incidentally I wondered, some time ago, if obesity might prove to be a clinching factor in covid death rates. I might have been on to something.


    "Obesity can increase risk of coronavirus death by up to 90%, PHE report finds"


    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/obesity-overweight-coronavirus-risks-increase-death-a4508281.html
    Once again I reiterate the health costs of the obese smokers and drinkers are lower per lifetime. Even before you figure in the reduced pension costs.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/22/alcohol-obesity-and-smoking-do-not-cost-health-care-systems-money/#4232ecf764aa

    from a dutch norwegian study

    If it is all down to health costs if anything we would encourage it
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    A fat slob is still a fat slob whether they're called it or not.

    People have the freedom to make their own choices but they have to take the responsibility for what the consequences are.

    Excessive and inappropriate drinking and smoking are now not tolerated and have restrictions places upon them.

    If obesity is now to be the focus of public health action then we need to consider what action is to be taken to reduce it.

    And we need to accept that includes the stick as well as carrots.
    Nobody is saying people have the freedom to make their own choices. Why are you trying to turn this into an argument that nobody is having?

    Even if you recognise the need for people to take responsibility for themselves, we as a society can still make it easier for people to make the right choices.

    My old employer completely refurbished the office and dining environment with a partial aim to help people eat healthier. They started providing free fruit, removed many unhealthy choices from vending machines, and gave employees much more fridge space and cooking facilities. People started eating more “proper meals” at lunch time rather than chocolate and snacks. It really worked.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    kinabalu said:

    Fair point - but remember Goodwin is a University man. He's probably surrounded by students who think everyone's woke.

    The football thing is getting absurd. I cannot see why game after game the players should be kneeling in this fashion - there are so many other causes/injustices around the world that deserve attention and not all of them involve white people.

    Football relies heavily on black talent so the issue is particularly resonant.
    Football has been engaged with campaigns like Kick It Out for years. Footballers have been speaking about the racism they've been facing both on and off the field since long before BLM kicked off over here.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,398
    LadyG said:

    kle4 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    kle4 said:

    Tres said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Fat shaming is one of the last hold-outs of acceptable everyday bigotry.
    I know AndyJS has in the past suggested height shaming is another one.
    People can't control their height. Most people can control their weight.
    I do think we send out very conflicting messages on weight and body shaming and the like. I think public messaging on eating better and doing more exercise is actually very strong, and ultimately it is down to individuals to do more for themselves and government having yet more awareness campaigns or banning advertising would have limited additional effect. But despite being so strong on the need to be healthy and the health industry being so huge, we also don't want to put so much on individuals to change their own behaviours, which in most cases will be the major factor. I'm not rich now but I used to be a lot poorer (albeit not four yorkshireman poor) and was a lot skinnir then, it isn't inevitable that poor people will be porky.
    Look East, young man

    GDP per capita of Vietnam: $2,300

    GDP per capita of UK: $42,000

    Obesity rate Vietnam: 2.1% (one of the lowest in the world)

    Obesity rate UK: 25% (one of the highest in Europe)

    Covid deaths Vietnam: 0

    Covid deaths UK: 45,738

    Vietnamese food is absolutely delicious, and super healthy, which is not unrelated.
    No Vietnamese round my way, sorry to say. Though a pub not too far away does Nepalese once a week which I've been meaning to check out.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    nichomar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Motogp riders haven't been doing anything BLM related, as far as I am aware.

    Are there any black participants?
    Don't think so. I suspect that were it not for Lewis Hamilton, F1 wouldn't have done anything either.
    Motorsport is very white.
    Arsene Wenger always used to say football is great because most kids have a go at it and so those who are talented tend to make it. Valentino Rossi called his autobiography "what if I had never tried it?" The reality is, for drivers/riders to make it requires their parents to have the desire and money to get their kid started.

    The engineering and technical side should, in theory, be more accessible.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    @LadyG can you recommend any Vietnamese dishes to try? I don’t think I’ve ever had it.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    stodge said:


    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.

    It's actually very easy and cheap to eat badly as well. It's not just "takeaways", it's the high salt and sugar intake many have.

    One thing that irritates me is watching Ramsay, Oliver and the other "celeb" chefs smother food with salt and pepper as though it were the only thing food ever needed.

    Cheap food doesn't have to be bad food but it often is - supermarket meat is full of water and tasteless but for many that's the only option they have. The supermarkets killed the local butcher, fishmonger and greengrocer and we now pay the price in terms of health issues.

    I was brought up on Farley's Rusks (anyone remember them?). That's why I had and still have a sweet tooth. Chocolate is another problem - it should be classed as a soft drug (it is addictive). We consume 7.6 kilograms (17 lbs) per person per year.

    Was it supermarkets which killed the local butcher etc or modern work patterns ?

    Supermarkets are open all hours while the local butcher etc are open 9-5 at most.

    In my experience the areas which still have the local butcher etc are the more upmarket ones with affluent pensioners and non-working wives/mothers who have the time and money to do a traditional 'market street' style shop.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Pagan2 said:

    LadyG said:

    I think if you want to make unhealthy choices then that's up to you.

    And I don't think we should glamourise unhealthy lifestyles.

    But being size 0 isn't the definition of healthy, people are naturally bigger than others.

    I don't think telling people they're fat slobs is helpful at all. It won't help them lose weight or get the help they need (if they need help, perhaps they don't want it and that's their choice).

    If you want to make unhealthy choices that is up to you, to a certain extent, BUT because we have a universal health system, we all have to pay for you, if you are obese and just keep eating, and therefore get diabetes etc. So British society (and other welfare states) can justifiably say "NO, put down the extra pies, please".

    I suggest warnings on food, as with tobacco, and maybe a small tax on junk food, and sugary drinks. It goes against my libertarian instincts but it is clear obesity is now a major threat.

    Incidentally I wondered, some time ago, if obesity might prove to be a clinching factor in covid death rates. I might have been on to something.


    "Obesity can increase risk of coronavirus death by up to 90%, PHE report finds"


    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/obesity-overweight-coronavirus-risks-increase-death-a4508281.html
    Once again I reiterate the health costs of the obese smokers and drinkers are lower per lifetime. Even before you figure in the reduced pension costs.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/22/alcohol-obesity-and-smoking-do-not-cost-health-care-systems-money/#4232ecf764aa

    from a dutch norwegian study

    If it is all down to health costs if anything we would encourage it
    That's fascinating, and counter-intuitive. I shall research further. Ta.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    Andy_JS said:

    A big mystery is the fact that in the 60s and 70s people consumed more calories than they do today but were much thinner.

    People were less sedentary then, less jobs required sitting in a chair 8 hours a day, more people walked to work and the shops etc
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,087
    edited July 2020
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fair point - but remember Goodwin is a University man. He's probably surrounded by students who think everyone's woke.

    The football thing is getting absurd. I cannot see why game after game the players should be kneeling in this fashion - there are so many other causes/injustices around the world that deserve attention and not all of them involve white people.

    Football relies heavily on black talent so the issue is particularly resonant.
    0-0 85-90 MC vs NC
    So if football believes in equality it is time for them to ask why eg mixed race, chinese and latino are perhaps under-represented amongst players.

    Rather like the very obvious need to address the major over-representation of LGBTXYZ in the House of Commons.

    Personally I don't think the alleged principles will survive contact with the experience of power.

    On Goodwin, I have him down as a somewhat divergent thinker - with whom I often agree but often disagree.

    I believe he is a member of Heterodox Academy.


  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Andy_JS said:

    A big mystery is the fact that in the 60s and 70s people consumed more calories than they do today but were much thinner.

    Seems unlikely though there was probably more activity then too.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    edited July 2020
    LadyG said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    It comes down to choice, you are responsible for the choices you make no one else.

    If you choose to stuff your maw with unhealthy stuff that is entirely down to you. You made a conscious choice to eat it so who else is it you think is to blame.

    Now I put my hand up and say I probably drink more than I should mainly down to stress....however I could find other ways of stress relief that pouring a glass of whiskey and the reason I don't is because its the easy way out to just pour a glass of the amber fluid and savour it . In other words the other methods of stress relief are too much effort and I am lazy.

    Letting people think they have excuses for personal choices robs them of agency, I eat unhealthily/drink too much/smoke too much etc.....but its not really my fault because work/commute/kids tire me out so you can't blame me. That let off allows them to continue the unhealthy behaviour with a clear conscience.
    Yes. Fat shaming is wrong - ie verbally abusing people for being blobs - however there MUST be some sense of personal responsibility and social tutting.

    People take heroin out of stress, they kick the dog because of stress, they guzzle too much wine out of stress (me), they eat seventeen KFC buckets a day out of stress. All of these should earn an element of social disapproval, in various forms.

    We did it for drink driving, and we are now doing it for smoking.
    Sort of agree. But there's a difference in that smoking and drinking are bad habits but being fat is you - it's how you look - which is more personal.

    People get at me for smoking and drinking and I find it irritating sometimes but never hurtful. If they were to get at me for something about my appearance, even if it was self-inflicted, let's say I have yellow teeth and a pot belly, although I don't, not yet, then I would be upset. And - key point - it would be as likely to cause me to say, "Well fuck you then, mine's a triple and where can I smoke?" as it would to make me wise up and see the light.
  • Northern_AlNorthern_Al Posts: 7,461
    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    LadyG said:

    MattW said:

    First.

    So 42% support.
    28% oppose.
    5% don't know.

    What happened to the other 25% ?

    That's rather a large hole.

    Well it is 26% due to rounding and it is 'Neither support nor oppose.'
    And that, I suspect, is a lot of people unprepared to give their true opinion, which is therefore unlikely to be positive.

    The fact that 30% do not think the protests should have happened NOW, and 38% actually think they should NEVER happen, suggests a large reservoir of quiet disapproval.

    Will footballers and cricketers continue to take the knee before every match until full racial equality has been achieved?
    Seems like a good idea.
    How would you define "full racial equality"?
    Well for starters no more monkey chants or other racism in football stadia.
    That crap was almost completely cleared from British football many years ago. Thankfully. You still get the odd idiot who might hiss at Spurs, but it is a tiny minority.

    If that is your metric then I'd say it is job done.
    What a relief it's only a tiny minority. That's fine then.

    Raheem Sterling and others have a different view.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A big mystery is the fact that in the 60s and 70s people consumed more calories than they do today but were much thinner.

    People were less sedentary then, less jobs required sitting in a chair 8 hours a day, more people walked to work and the shops etc
    There is an idea that central heating has had an effect. Maintaining body temperature is consume a lot of callories.

    An interesting aside - people working in Antartica have to consume food like crazy not to lose weight in the cold.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631

    @LadyG can you recommend any Vietnamese dishes to try? I don’t think I’ve ever had it.

    https://www.recipetineats.com/vietnamese-pho-recipe/ is one I have made and can recommend
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Posting because this is the developing story from a spanish viewpoint, they are not necessarily my views I hope they provide a broader perspective.
    I do wonder where everybody is getting their numbers from though

    The President of the Valencian Generalitat, Ximo Puig, has asked the British authorities this Sunday to exempt the region, and especially the Costa Blanca, in Alicante, from the recommendation not to travel to Spain and the imposition of quarantine. The head of the Consell has transferred to the British officials that the Valencian regions receiving British tourists, and particularly those of Alicante, have a lower incidence of coronavirus than Great Britain itself. For this reason, he considers that the British decision "does not seem justified with the objective data currently available". The head of the Generalitat has shown his enormous concern about the situation, and about the consequences that the decision may have for the tourist season
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    LadyG said:

    Pagan2 said:

    LadyG said:

    I think if you want to make unhealthy choices then that's up to you.

    And I don't think we should glamourise unhealthy lifestyles.

    But being size 0 isn't the definition of healthy, people are naturally bigger than others.

    I don't think telling people they're fat slobs is helpful at all. It won't help them lose weight or get the help they need (if they need help, perhaps they don't want it and that's their choice).

    If you want to make unhealthy choices that is up to you, to a certain extent, BUT because we have a universal health system, we all have to pay for you, if you are obese and just keep eating, and therefore get diabetes etc. So British society (and other welfare states) can justifiably say "NO, put down the extra pies, please".

    I suggest warnings on food, as with tobacco, and maybe a small tax on junk food, and sugary drinks. It goes against my libertarian instincts but it is clear obesity is now a major threat.

    Incidentally I wondered, some time ago, if obesity might prove to be a clinching factor in covid death rates. I might have been on to something.


    "Obesity can increase risk of coronavirus death by up to 90%, PHE report finds"


    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/obesity-overweight-coronavirus-risks-increase-death-a4508281.html
    Once again I reiterate the health costs of the obese smokers and drinkers are lower per lifetime. Even before you figure in the reduced pension costs.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/22/alcohol-obesity-and-smoking-do-not-cost-health-care-systems-money/#4232ecf764aa

    from a dutch norwegian study

    If it is all down to health costs if anything we would encourage it
    That's fascinating, and counter-intuitive. I shall research further. Ta.
    I didn't know about the health systems but the pensions system would certainly be saving money if people die earlier.

    I do understand the frustration of doctors dealing with very obese middle aged people or those needing liver transplants for alcohol abuse - things that are undeniably costly at that moment and the responsibility of the individual.

    Am I right in thinking that half the healthcare costs are for those in the last six months of life?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Pagan2 said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A big mystery is the fact that in the 60s and 70s people consumed more calories than they do today but were much thinner.

    People were less sedentary then, less jobs required sitting in a chair 8 hours a day, more people walked to work and the shops etc
    There is an idea that central heating has had an effect. Maintaining body temperature is consume a lot of callories.

    An interesting aside - people working in Antartica have to consume food like crazy not to lose weight in the cold.
    Very logical.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    LadyG said:

    Pagan2 said:

    LadyG said:

    I think if you want to make unhealthy choices then that's up to you.

    And I don't think we should glamourise unhealthy lifestyles.

    But being size 0 isn't the definition of healthy, people are naturally bigger than others.

    I don't think telling people they're fat slobs is helpful at all. It won't help them lose weight or get the help they need (if they need help, perhaps they don't want it and that's their choice).

    If you want to make unhealthy choices that is up to you, to a certain extent, BUT because we have a universal health system, we all have to pay for you, if you are obese and just keep eating, and therefore get diabetes etc. So British society (and other welfare states) can justifiably say "NO, put down the extra pies, please".

    I suggest warnings on food, as with tobacco, and maybe a small tax on junk food, and sugary drinks. It goes against my libertarian instincts but it is clear obesity is now a major threat.

    Incidentally I wondered, some time ago, if obesity might prove to be a clinching factor in covid death rates. I might have been on to something.


    "Obesity can increase risk of coronavirus death by up to 90%, PHE report finds"


    https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/obesity-overweight-coronavirus-risks-increase-death-a4508281.html
    Once again I reiterate the health costs of the obese smokers and drinkers are lower per lifetime. Even before you figure in the reduced pension costs.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/22/alcohol-obesity-and-smoking-do-not-cost-health-care-systems-money/#4232ecf764aa

    from a dutch norwegian study

    If it is all down to health costs if anything we would encourage it
    That's fascinating, and counter-intuitive. I shall research further. Ta.
    No great mystery, the healthy tend to linger on while the obese,smokers etc get taken out by more abrupt and short illnesses before they get to need that sort of care on average
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    kinabalu said:

    Fair point - but remember Goodwin is a University man. He's probably surrounded by students who think everyone's woke.

    The football thing is getting absurd. I cannot see why game after game the players should be kneeling in this fashion - there are so many other causes/injustices around the world that deserve attention and not all of them involve white people.

    Football relies heavily on black talent so the issue is particularly resonant.
    Not only that, but over recent years we have seen quite a few racist incidents directed at black footballers here and abroad. There is too a noticeable shortage of black people in non playing roles within football.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    A fat slob is still a fat slob whether they're called it or not.

    People have the freedom to make their own choices but they have to take the responsibility for what the consequences are.

    Excessive and inappropriate drinking and smoking are now not tolerated and have restrictions places upon them.

    If obesity is now to be the focus of public health action then we need to consider what action is to be taken to reduce it.

    And we need to accept that includes the stick as well as carrots.
    Nobody is saying people have the freedom to make their own choices. Why are you trying to turn this into an argument that nobody is having?

    Even if you recognise the need for people to take responsibility for themselves, we as a society can still make it easier for people to make the right choices.

    My old employer completely refurbished the office and dining environment with a partial aim to help people eat healthier. They started providing free fruit, removed many unhealthy choices from vending machines, and gave employees much more fridge space and cooking facilities. People started eating more “proper meals” at lunch time rather than chocolate and snacks. It really worked.
    Its called opening up a discussion on a current issue.

    Now giving incentives, help and advice to adopt a more healthy lifestyle are good things.

    But active discouragements are also needed - taxes on the 'wrong' food or recruitment policies which penalise unhealthy lifestyles.

    And given its relevance of the issue to it I think the NHS has a responsibility to lead by example.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    edited July 2020
    For info Alicante even lower

    Diagnosticados últimas 24 horas: 40 Diagnosticados últimos 7 días: 472 Diagnosticados últimos 14 días: 665 Incidencia Acumulada (IA): 13,29 Número reproductivo básico (Rt): 2,4
    Fallecidos:1.433
    Fallecidos últimos 7 días: 1
    Recuperados:18-05-20209.970
    Hospitalizados: 5.878 Hospitalizados últimos 7 días: 28 UCI: 746 UCI últimos 7 días: 0
    PCR totales: 35.512
    PCR/1000 hab: 33,4 Incremento capacidad PCR última semana: 10%
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    @LadyG can you recommend any Vietnamese dishes to try? I don’t think I’ve ever had it.

    Basically, anything!

    This is a pretty good list

    https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/vietnam-food-dishes/index.html

    Probably a good test is if the restaurant does a nice "pho", which is the classic, basic Vietnamese noodle-broth. Done well, with chunks of juicy beef and the right spicing, it is lovely, healthy, tasty, mmmmm

    But a bad version will have nasty chewy beef, instant noodles, yuk

    The standard of food in Vietnam itself is so high bad places go bust quickly so you can generally guarantee to get a good meal anywhere, and often it will be superb.

    A couple of years ago I did a three week trip down the length of the country and I did not have one single bad meal. Remarkable. The street food in particular is WOW.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    A fat slob is still a fat slob whether they're called it or not.

    People have the freedom to make their own choices but they have to take the responsibility for what the consequences are.

    Excessive and inappropriate drinking and smoking are now not tolerated and have restrictions places upon them.

    If obesity is now to be the focus of public health action then we need to consider what action is to be taken to reduce it.

    And we need to accept that includes the stick as well as carrots.
    Nobody is saying people have the freedom to make their own choices. Why are you trying to turn this into an argument that nobody is having?

    Even if you recognise the need for people to take responsibility for themselves, we as a society can still make it easier for people to make the right choices.

    My old employer completely refurbished the office and dining environment with a partial aim to help people eat healthier. They started providing free fruit, removed many unhealthy choices from vending machines, and gave employees much more fridge space and cooking facilities. People started eating more “proper meals” at lunch time rather than chocolate and snacks. It really worked.
    Its called opening up a discussion on a current issue.

    Now giving incentives, help and advice to adopt a more healthy lifestyle are good things.

    But active discouragements are also needed - taxes on the 'wrong' food or recruitment policies which penalise unhealthy lifestyles.

    And given its relevance of the issue to it I think the NHS has a responsibility to lead by example.
    As discussed the other day, positive "nudges" are more effective. See Vitality health insurance etc.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    Andy_JS said:

    A big mystery is the fact that in the 60s and 70s people consumed more calories than they do today but were much thinner.

    Seems unlikely though there was probably more activity then too.
    My wife was talking about that the other day. When she was at school in Oban in the 60's the school gave them about an hour and a half for lunch which was the main meal of the day. Kids walked a mile home and then back again. Tea was light. Kids played outside much, much more. Homes were colder and draughty so you burned more calories.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    edited July 2020
    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    nichomar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Motogp riders haven't been doing anything BLM related, as far as I am aware.

    Are there any black participants?
    Don't think so. I suspect that were it not for Lewis Hamilton, F1 wouldn't have done anything either.
    Motorsport is very white.
    Arsene Wenger always used to say football is great because most kids have a go at it and so those who are talented tend to make it. Valentino Rossi called his autobiography "what if I had never tried it?" The reality is, for drivers/riders to make it requires their parents to have the desire and money to get their kid started.

    The engineering and technical side should, in theory, be more accessible.
    That's absolutely right. Football is the purest meritocracy there is. You know there is no greater footballing talent than Messi on this planet because if there was we would know about it. Motorsport - esp F1 - is towards the other end of the spectrum. At the extreme other end? Probably polo.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Andy_JS said:

    A big mystery is the fact that in the 60s and 70s people consumed more calories than they do today but were much thinner.

    Seems unlikely though there was probably more activity then too.
    Walk to school, bike to work no car for the shopping, 10 hour days for the housewife etc etc
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    kinabalu said:

    LadyG said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    It comes down to choice, you are responsible for the choices you make no one else.

    If you choose to stuff your maw with unhealthy stuff that is entirely down to you. You made a conscious choice to eat it so who else is it you think is to blame.

    Now I put my hand up and say I probably drink more than I should mainly down to stress....however I could find other ways of stress relief that pouring a glass of whiskey and the reason I don't is because its the easy way out to just pour a glass of the amber fluid and savour it . In other words the other methods of stress relief are too much effort and I am lazy.

    Letting people think they have excuses for personal choices robs them of agency, I eat unhealthily/drink too much/smoke too much etc.....but its not really my fault because work/commute/kids tire me out so you can't blame me. That let off allows them to continue the unhealthy behaviour with a clear conscience.
    Yes. Fat shaming is wrong - ie verbally abusing people for being blobs - however there MUST be some sense of personal responsibility and social tutting.

    People take heroin out of stress, they kick the dog because of stress, they guzzle too much wine out of stress (me), they eat seventeen KFC buckets a day out of stress. All of these should earn an element of social disapproval, in various forms.

    We did it for drink driving, and we are now doing it for smoking.
    Sort of agree. But there's a difference in that smoking and drinking are bad habits but being fat is you - it's how you look - which is more personal.

    People get at me for smoking and drinking and I find it irritating sometimes but never hurtful. If they were to get at me for something about my appearance, even if it was self-inflicted, let's say I have yellow teeth and a pot belly, although I don't, not yet, then I would be upset. And - key point - it would be as likely to cause me to say, "Well fuck you then, mine's a triple and where can I smoke?" as it would to make me wise up and see the light.
    Yep. Fat shaming is far more likely to hinder than help. If people have a go it's going to make you miserable and that makes comfort eating, which is one of the major causes of people getting overweight, more likely.

    One also has the option to give up nicotine and booze. You can't give up food.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    A fat slob is still a fat slob whether they're called it or not.

    People have the freedom to make their own choices but they have to take the responsibility for what the consequences are.

    Excessive and inappropriate drinking and smoking are now not tolerated and have restrictions places upon them.

    If obesity is now to be the focus of public health action then we need to consider what action is to be taken to reduce it.

    And we need to accept that includes the stick as well as carrots.
    Nobody is saying people have the freedom to make their own choices. Why are you trying to turn this into an argument that nobody is having?

    Even if you recognise the need for people to take responsibility for themselves, we as a society can still make it easier for people to make the right choices.

    My old employer completely refurbished the office and dining environment with a partial aim to help people eat healthier. They started providing free fruit, removed many unhealthy choices from vending machines, and gave employees much more fridge space and cooking facilities. People started eating more “proper meals” at lunch time rather than chocolate and snacks. It really worked.
    Its called opening up a discussion on a current issue.

    Now giving incentives, help and advice to adopt a more healthy lifestyle are good things.

    But active discouragements are also needed - taxes on the 'wrong' food or recruitment policies which penalise unhealthy lifestyles.

    And given its relevance of the issue to it I think the NHS has a responsibility to lead by example.
    Yes, staff obesity is an issue. Particularly noticeable with the nursing staff. Too many chocolates and biscuits as presents! A lot of Trusts, including my own have positive policies aimed at health staff. In the end, it is up to individuals though.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Foxy said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    A fat slob is still a fat slob whether they're called it or not.

    People have the freedom to make their own choices but they have to take the responsibility for what the consequences are.

    Excessive and inappropriate drinking and smoking are now not tolerated and have restrictions places upon them.

    If obesity is now to be the focus of public health action then we need to consider what action is to be taken to reduce it.

    And we need to accept that includes the stick as well as carrots.
    Nobody is saying people have the freedom to make their own choices. Why are you trying to turn this into an argument that nobody is having?

    Even if you recognise the need for people to take responsibility for themselves, we as a society can still make it easier for people to make the right choices.

    My old employer completely refurbished the office and dining environment with a partial aim to help people eat healthier. They started providing free fruit, removed many unhealthy choices from vending machines, and gave employees much more fridge space and cooking facilities. People started eating more “proper meals” at lunch time rather than chocolate and snacks. It really worked.
    Its called opening up a discussion on a current issue.

    Now giving incentives, help and advice to adopt a more healthy lifestyle are good things.

    But active discouragements are also needed - taxes on the 'wrong' food or recruitment policies which penalise unhealthy lifestyles.

    And given its relevance of the issue to it I think the NHS has a responsibility to lead by example.
    Yes, staff obesity is an issue. Particularly noticeable with the nursing staff. Too many chocolates and biscuits as presents! A lot of Trusts, including my own have positive policies aimed at health staff. In the end, it is up to individuals though.
    British cops tend to be lard-arses as well. Presumably it is the same kind of culture. Doughnuts at work, junk food at the end of the shift.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fair point - but remember Goodwin is a University man. He's probably surrounded by students who think everyone's woke.

    The football thing is getting absurd. I cannot see why game after game the players should be kneeling in this fashion - there are so many other causes/injustices around the world that deserve attention and not all of them involve white people.

    Football relies heavily on black talent so the issue is particularly resonant.
    Not only that, but over recent years we have seen quite a few racist incidents directed at black footballers here and abroad. There is too a noticeable shortage of black people in non playing roles within football.
    Fair points but that's not really what BLM is about.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,415
    Sport and politics should not mix .
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    Today's UK Covid death count: 14. New cases: 747.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,749
    justin124 said:

    FPT
    Justin124 said:
    ' Had the SNP not supported the Tories in late March 1979 the Government would not have fallen at that point - and no GE would have taken place on 3rd May. The election would have then been in June or October that year.'

    Carnyx said:

    'Something inevitable came 3-4 months early, at best, in other words.

    Jim Callaghan never blamed the SNP. '

    The difference in timing of the GE could well have proved crucial. A few more weeks or months would have given Callaghan time to enable memories of the Winter of Discontent to fade a fair bit further than had occured by 3rd May. As a result the Tory lead in vote share might well have narrowed to circa 3% rather than the 7% margin Thatcher managed that May. That would likely have meant a Hung Parliament - probably a minority Tory Government supported by the Ulster Unionists. Probably far too weak to increase VAT from 8% to 15% a month later.

    The printed press was overwhelmingly critical of the Lab government and much more influential than today (no TV debates, remember). I Doubt the political climate would have improved much in 3 months.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,398
    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    A fat slob is still a fat slob whether they're called it or not.

    People have the freedom to make their own choices but they have to take the responsibility for what the consequences are.

    Excessive and inappropriate drinking and smoking are now not tolerated and have restrictions places upon them.

    If obesity is now to be the focus of public health action then we need to consider what action is to be taken to reduce it.

    And we need to accept that includes the stick as well as carrots.
    Nobody is saying people have the freedom to make their own choices. Why are you trying to turn this into an argument that nobody is having?

    Even if you recognise the need for people to take responsibility for themselves, we as a society can still make it easier for people to make the right choices.

    My old employer completely refurbished the office and dining environment with a partial aim to help people eat healthier. They started providing free fruit, removed many unhealthy choices from vending machines, and gave employees much more fridge space and cooking facilities. People started eating more “proper meals” at lunch time rather than chocolate and snacks. It really worked.
    Its called opening up a discussion on a current issue.

    Now giving incentives, help and advice to adopt a more healthy lifestyle are good things.

    But active discouragements are also needed - taxes on the 'wrong' food or recruitment policies which penalise unhealthy lifestyles.

    And given its relevance of the issue to it I think the NHS has a responsibility to lead by example.
    Yes, staff obesity is an issue. Particularly noticeable with the nursing staff. Too many chocolates and biscuits as presents! A lot of Trusts, including my own have positive policies aimed at health staff. In the end, it is up to individuals though.
    British cops tend to be lard-arses as well. Presumably it is the same kind of culture. Doughnuts at work, junk food at the end of the shift.
    That's why I always run from the police, to be civic minded and help them by ensuring a foot race. It's very motivating on my end as well to not keep going for one more km.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    A fat slob is still a fat slob whether they're called it or not.

    People have the freedom to make their own choices but they have to take the responsibility for what the consequences are.

    Excessive and inappropriate drinking and smoking are now not tolerated and have restrictions places upon them.

    If obesity is now to be the focus of public health action then we need to consider what action is to be taken to reduce it.

    And we need to accept that includes the stick as well as carrots.
    Nobody is saying people have the freedom to make their own choices. Why are you trying to turn this into an argument that nobody is having?

    Even if you recognise the need for people to take responsibility for themselves, we as a society can still make it easier for people to make the right choices.

    My old employer completely refurbished the office and dining environment with a partial aim to help people eat healthier. They started providing free fruit, removed many unhealthy choices from vending machines, and gave employees much more fridge space and cooking facilities. People started eating more “proper meals” at lunch time rather than chocolate and snacks. It really worked.
    Its called opening up a discussion on a current issue.

    Now giving incentives, help and advice to adopt a more healthy lifestyle are good things.

    But active discouragements are also needed - taxes on the 'wrong' food or recruitment policies which penalise unhealthy lifestyles.

    And given its relevance of the issue to it I think the NHS has a responsibility to lead by example.
    Yes, staff obesity is an issue. Particularly noticeable with the nursing staff. Too many chocolates and biscuits as presents! A lot of Trusts, including my own have positive policies aimed at health staff. In the end, it is up to individuals though.
    British cops tend to be lard-arses as well. Presumably it is the same kind of culture. Doughnuts at work, junk food at the end of the shift.
    My work people bring in cake, I just don't eat it. It isn't that difficult or if you wish to join in cut a small slice rather than half the cake as some work colleagues seem to do usually the same ones that say "I don't know why I keep putting on weight I eat like a fly"
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 5,415
    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    nichomar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Motogp riders haven't been doing anything BLM related, as far as I am aware.

    Are there any black participants?
    Don't think so. I suspect that were it not for Lewis Hamilton, F1 wouldn't have done anything either.
    Motorsport is very white.
    Arsene Wenger always used to say football is great because most kids have a go at it and so those who are talented tend to make it. Valentino Rossi called his autobiography "what if I had never tried it?" The reality is, for drivers/riders to make it requires their parents to have the desire and money to get their kid started.

    The engineering and technical side should, in theory, be more accessible.
    That's absolutely right. Football is the purest meritocracy there is. You know there is no greater footballing talent than Messi on this planet because if there was we would know about it. Motorsport - esp F1 - is towards the other end of the spectrum. At the extreme other end? Probably polo.
    Although that assumes that if you are a great footballer you should be a footballer (as opposed to say a doctor or engineer) .Not sure football is that important
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    kle4 said:

    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    A fat slob is still a fat slob whether they're called it or not.

    People have the freedom to make their own choices but they have to take the responsibility for what the consequences are.

    Excessive and inappropriate drinking and smoking are now not tolerated and have restrictions places upon them.

    If obesity is now to be the focus of public health action then we need to consider what action is to be taken to reduce it.

    And we need to accept that includes the stick as well as carrots.
    Nobody is saying people have the freedom to make their own choices. Why are you trying to turn this into an argument that nobody is having?

    Even if you recognise the need for people to take responsibility for themselves, we as a society can still make it easier for people to make the right choices.

    My old employer completely refurbished the office and dining environment with a partial aim to help people eat healthier. They started providing free fruit, removed many unhealthy choices from vending machines, and gave employees much more fridge space and cooking facilities. People started eating more “proper meals” at lunch time rather than chocolate and snacks. It really worked.
    Its called opening up a discussion on a current issue.

    Now giving incentives, help and advice to adopt a more healthy lifestyle are good things.

    But active discouragements are also needed - taxes on the 'wrong' food or recruitment policies which penalise unhealthy lifestyles.

    And given its relevance of the issue to it I think the NHS has a responsibility to lead by example.
    Yes, staff obesity is an issue. Particularly noticeable with the nursing staff. Too many chocolates and biscuits as presents! A lot of Trusts, including my own have positive policies aimed at health staff. In the end, it is up to individuals though.
    British cops tend to be lard-arses as well. Presumably it is the same kind of culture. Doughnuts at work, junk food at the end of the shift.
    That's why I always run from the police, to be civic minded and help them by ensuring a foot race. It's very motivating on my end as well to not keep going for one more km.
    Plus all those miles you need to walk to find a policeman to run away from
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,398
    Pagan2 said:

    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    A fat slob is still a fat slob whether they're called it or not.

    People have the freedom to make their own choices but they have to take the responsibility for what the consequences are.

    Excessive and inappropriate drinking and smoking are now not tolerated and have restrictions places upon them.

    If obesity is now to be the focus of public health action then we need to consider what action is to be taken to reduce it.

    And we need to accept that includes the stick as well as carrots.
    Nobody is saying people have the freedom to make their own choices. Why are you trying to turn this into an argument that nobody is having?

    Even if you recognise the need for people to take responsibility for themselves, we as a society can still make it easier for people to make the right choices.

    My old employer completely refurbished the office and dining environment with a partial aim to help people eat healthier. They started providing free fruit, removed many unhealthy choices from vending machines, and gave employees much more fridge space and cooking facilities. People started eating more “proper meals” at lunch time rather than chocolate and snacks. It really worked.
    Its called opening up a discussion on a current issue.

    Now giving incentives, help and advice to adopt a more healthy lifestyle are good things.

    But active discouragements are also needed - taxes on the 'wrong' food or recruitment policies which penalise unhealthy lifestyles.

    And given its relevance of the issue to it I think the NHS has a responsibility to lead by example.
    Yes, staff obesity is an issue. Particularly noticeable with the nursing staff. Too many chocolates and biscuits as presents! A lot of Trusts, including my own have positive policies aimed at health staff. In the end, it is up to individuals though.
    British cops tend to be lard-arses as well. Presumably it is the same kind of culture. Doughnuts at work, junk food at the end of the shift.
    My work people bring in cake, I just don't eat it. It isn't that difficult or if you wish to join in cut a small slice rather than half the cake as some work colleagues seem to do usually the same ones that say "I don't know why I keep putting on weight I eat like a fly"
    If you cannot resist the temptation of a workplace cake then you weren't going to maintain discipline anyway, same as being able to say no to a beer after work.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    nichomar said:

    Posting because this is the developing story from a spanish viewpoint, they are not necessarily my views I hope they provide a broader perspective.
    I do wonder where everybody is getting their numbers from though

    The President of the Valencian Generalitat, Ximo Puig, has asked the British authorities this Sunday to exempt the region, and especially the Costa Blanca, in Alicante, from the recommendation not to travel to Spain and the imposition of quarantine. The head of the Consell has transferred to the British officials that the Valencian regions receiving British tourists, and particularly those of Alicante, have a lower incidence of coronavirus than Great Britain itself. For this reason, he considers that the British decision "does not seem justified with the objective data currently available". The head of the Generalitat has shown his enormous concern about the situation, and about the consequences that the decision may have for the tourist season

    Much the same in my part of Almeria - but the data of course changes on a daily basis and lots of exemptions add to confusion. I think the bigger error which ALL countries keep making is relaxing restrictions too far and too quick. Spain's biggest mistake is the opening of discos and bars without adequate policing of the rules. Hard as it is on the tourist industry I do feel that the benefits of the big lockdown we had are now being frittered away.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Pagan2 said:

    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    A fat slob is still a fat slob whether they're called it or not.

    People have the freedom to make their own choices but they have to take the responsibility for what the consequences are.

    Excessive and inappropriate drinking and smoking are now not tolerated and have restrictions places upon them.

    If obesity is now to be the focus of public health action then we need to consider what action is to be taken to reduce it.

    And we need to accept that includes the stick as well as carrots.
    Nobody is saying people have the freedom to make their own choices. Why are you trying to turn this into an argument that nobody is having?

    Even if you recognise the need for people to take responsibility for themselves, we as a society can still make it easier for people to make the right choices.

    My old employer completely refurbished the office and dining environment with a partial aim to help people eat healthier. They started providing free fruit, removed many unhealthy choices from vending machines, and gave employees much more fridge space and cooking facilities. People started eating more “proper meals” at lunch time rather than chocolate and snacks. It really worked.
    Its called opening up a discussion on a current issue.

    Now giving incentives, help and advice to adopt a more healthy lifestyle are good things.

    But active discouragements are also needed - taxes on the 'wrong' food or recruitment policies which penalise unhealthy lifestyles.

    And given its relevance of the issue to it I think the NHS has a responsibility to lead by example.
    Yes, staff obesity is an issue. Particularly noticeable with the nursing staff. Too many chocolates and biscuits as presents! A lot of Trusts, including my own have positive policies aimed at health staff. In the end, it is up to individuals though.
    British cops tend to be lard-arses as well. Presumably it is the same kind of culture. Doughnuts at work, junk food at the end of the shift.
    My work people bring in cake, I just don't eat it. It isn't that difficult or if you wish to join in cut a small slice rather than half the cake as some work colleagues seem to do usually the same ones that say "I don't know why I keep putting on weight I eat like a fly"
    There's a married couple in my distant family who are seriously overweight and yet constantly talk about how they "watch what they eat".

    When I actually "watched what they eat" I saw the essential problem: they like to consume enormous portions of fattening food.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    A fat slob is still a fat slob whether they're called it or not.

    People have the freedom to make their own choices but they have to take the responsibility for what the consequences are.

    Excessive and inappropriate drinking and smoking are now not tolerated and have restrictions places upon them.

    If obesity is now to be the focus of public health action then we need to consider what action is to be taken to reduce it.

    And we need to accept that includes the stick as well as carrots.
    Nobody is saying people have the freedom to make their own choices. Why are you trying to turn this into an argument that nobody is having?

    Even if you recognise the need for people to take responsibility for themselves, we as a society can still make it easier for people to make the right choices.

    My old employer completely refurbished the office and dining environment with a partial aim to help people eat healthier. They started providing free fruit, removed many unhealthy choices from vending machines, and gave employees much more fridge space and cooking facilities. People started eating more “proper meals” at lunch time rather than chocolate and snacks. It really worked.
    Its called opening up a discussion on a current issue.

    Now giving incentives, help and advice to adopt a more healthy lifestyle are good things.

    But active discouragements are also needed - taxes on the 'wrong' food or recruitment policies which penalise unhealthy lifestyles.

    And given its relevance of the issue to it I think the NHS has a responsibility to lead by example.
    Yes, staff obesity is an issue. Particularly noticeable with the nursing staff. Too many chocolates and biscuits as presents! A lot of Trusts, including my own have positive policies aimed at health staff. In the end, it is up to individuals though.
    British cops tend to be lard-arses as well. Presumably it is the same kind of culture. Doughnuts at work, junk food at the end of the shift.
    My work people bring in cake, I just don't eat it. It isn't that difficult or if you wish to join in cut a small slice rather than half the cake as some work colleagues seem to do usually the same ones that say "I don't know why I keep putting on weight I eat like a fly"
    If you cannot resist the temptation of a workplace cake then you weren't going to maintain discipline anyway, same as being able to say no to a beer after work.
    Saying no to a beer after work is dead easy, going for a drink with my colleagues would be as fun as going out with a posse of ed milibrands
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,087
    edited July 2020
    DavidL said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A big mystery is the fact that in the 60s and 70s people consumed more calories than they do today but were much thinner.

    Seems unlikely though there was probably more activity then too.
    My wife was talking about that the other day. When she was at school in Oban in the 60's the school gave them about an hour and a half for lunch which was the main meal of the day. Kids walked a mile home and then back again. Tea was light. Kids played outside much, much more. Homes were colder and draughty so you burned more calories.
    I put "reduced exercise" in the no shit Sherlock category.

    eg falling amount of cycling
    image
    https://www.cyclinguk.org/statistics

    Equally the ambient temperature of a house rose significantly with universal central heating and double glazing.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    England need to start slapping the cherry all over the place
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    England Case data - absolute numbers

    Pillar 1 & 2

    Last 3-5 days subject to revision etc

    image
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    England Case data - scaled to per 100k population

    Last 3-5 days subject to revision etc

    image
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,912
    Andy_JS said:

    A big mystery is the fact that in the 60s and 70s people consumed more calories than they do today but were much thinner.

    Not that much of a mystery if you think how many calories a coal miner would have consumed during a shift, for instance.
    Cars are the main reason are fat, alongside sugar in processed and fast food. People in London are much less fat than people in the rest of the country, because they drive less and walk/cycle more. It's also a crowd thing - if you are surrounded by overweight people, you are more likely to become overweight, because you feel under less pressure not to. Being overweight/obese has achieved critical mass (no pun intended) in the general population. It's not about body shaming people, but it is a public health disaster and I think it is quite sad in terms of the cost to people's general happiness and wellbeing.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fair point - but remember Goodwin is a University man. He's probably surrounded by students who think everyone's woke.

    The football thing is getting absurd. I cannot see why game after game the players should be kneeling in this fashion - there are so many other causes/injustices around the world that deserve attention and not all of them involve white people.

    Football relies heavily on black talent so the issue is particularly resonant.
    Not only that, but over recent years we have seen quite a few racist incidents directed at black footballers here and abroad. There is too a noticeable shortage of black people in non playing roles within football.
    Fair points but that's not really what BLM is about.
    I thought BLM was about *all* the structural racist issues in society.

    The large number of young black men killed by US cops is the headline leading issue - but not the whole thing.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    England Case data - absolute numbers

    Pillar 1 & 2

    Last 3-5 days subject to revision etc

    image

    Basically, Coronavirus in Britain has now been confined to a few northern towns with large BAME populations?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fair point - but remember Goodwin is a University man. He's probably surrounded by students who think everyone's woke.

    The football thing is getting absurd. I cannot see why game after game the players should be kneeling in this fashion - there are so many other causes/injustices around the world that deserve attention and not all of them involve white people.

    Football relies heavily on black talent so the issue is particularly resonant.
    Not only that, but over recent years we have seen quite a few racist incidents directed at black footballers here and abroad. There is too a noticeable shortage of black people in non playing roles within football.
    Yes, that too. The disconnect between what's on the pitch and off it. Loads of black players, hardly any black coaches and managers, and relatively few black faces in the stands. I used to go to Crystal Palace a bit, a mainly black team, a pretty black neighbourhood, yet an overwhelmingly white fan following.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fair point - but remember Goodwin is a University man. He's probably surrounded by students who think everyone's woke.

    The football thing is getting absurd. I cannot see why game after game the players should be kneeling in this fashion - there are so many other causes/injustices around the world that deserve attention and not all of them involve white people.

    Football relies heavily on black talent so the issue is particularly resonant.
    Not only that, but over recent years we have seen quite a few racist incidents directed at black footballers here and abroad. There is too a noticeable shortage of black people in non playing roles within football.
    Fair points but that's not really what BLM is about.
    I think most people are able to distinguish between the BLM cause and the much less well supported BLM organisation. It is like the difference between supporting green politics and Green politics. The former there is much more supported than the latter too.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,912
    On topic, Matthew Goodwin has got kind of boring. He's turning into a Twitter troll with a PhD.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    @Malmesbury Tyneside continues to have a very low incidence of COVID compared to the other big urban centres. Wonder why.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,398
    LadyG said:

    England Case data - absolute numbers

    Pillar 1 & 2

    Last 3-5 days subject to revision etc

    image

    Basically, Coronavirus in Britain has now been confined to a few northern towns with large BAME populations?
    Leicester is not in the north!
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,836
    kinabalu said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fair point - but remember Goodwin is a University man. He's probably surrounded by students who think everyone's woke.

    The football thing is getting absurd. I cannot see why game after game the players should be kneeling in this fashion - there are so many other causes/injustices around the world that deserve attention and not all of them involve white people.

    Football relies heavily on black talent so the issue is particularly resonant.
    Not only that, but over recent years we have seen quite a few racist incidents directed at black footballers here and abroad. There is too a noticeable shortage of black people in non playing roles within football.
    Yes, that too. The disconnect between what's on the pitch and off it. Loads of black players, hardly any black coaches and managers, and relatively few black faces in the stands. I used to go to Crystal Palace a bit, a mainly black team, a pretty black neighbourhood, yet an overwhelmingly white fan .
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,749
    And now Klopp copies Pep with a weird starting lineup.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    .
    LadyG said:

    England Case data - absolute numbers

    Pillar 1 & 2

    Last 3-5 days subject to revision etc

    image

    Basically, Coronavirus in Britain has now been confined to a few northern towns with large BAME populations?
    The B and ME's could justifiably raise an eyebrow at that, as could a lot of the As
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    LadyG said:

    England Case data - absolute numbers

    Pillar 1 & 2

    Last 3-5 days subject to revision etc

    image

    Basically, Coronavirus in Britain has now been confined to a few northern towns with large BAME populations?
    Interesting flare up in Melton. Pedigree Pet Foods?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,836
    Playing Everton when you really need 3 points has its advantages.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Today's UK Covid death count: 14. New cases: 747.

    Definitely an uptick in cases. Hopefully related to more testing in areas with outbreaks rather than more community transmission.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    And the ever popular England all settings numbers -

    As expected, the lawyer with the baseball bat is taking the weekend off.

    image
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fair point - but remember Goodwin is a University man. He's probably surrounded by students who think everyone's woke.

    The football thing is getting absurd. I cannot see why game after game the players should be kneeling in this fashion - there are so many other causes/injustices around the world that deserve attention and not all of them involve white people.

    Football relies heavily on black talent so the issue is particularly resonant.
    Not only that, but over recent years we have seen quite a few racist incidents directed at black footballers here and abroad. There is too a noticeable shortage of black people in non playing roles within football.
    Fair points but that's not really what BLM is about.
    I think most people are able to distinguish between the BLM cause and the much less well supported BLM organisation. It is like the difference between supporting green politics and Green politics. The former there is much more supported than the latter too.
    When David Cameron said "Vote Blue - Go Green" nobody started banging on about the wackiest of the Green Party's policies.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,743



    Was it supermarkets which killed the local butcher etc or modern work patterns ?

    Supermarkets are open all hours while the local butcher etc are open 9-5 at most.

    In my experience the areas which still have the local butcher etc are the more upmarket ones with affluent pensioners and non-working wives/mothers who have the time and money to do a traditional 'market street' style shop.

    Supermarkets have only extended opening hours in the past 30 years Sunday trading was introduced by the Thatcher Government and whether you support it or not, it was understandably hard for a small business to have to trade seven days a week while the big boys could afford to with ease.

    Perhaps the Homeworking Revolution will change the dynamic once again and re-vitalise local towns in the day and offer opportunities for more specialist food shops. I hope that happens.

    I'd also add under "modern work patterns" people having to work longer hours either to make ends meet or as part of a cultural shift to longer hours?

  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    Andy_JS said:

    A big mystery is the fact that in the 60s and 70s people consumed more calories than they do today but were much thinner.

    Not that much of a mystery if you think how many calories a coal miner would have consumed during a shift, for instance.
    Cars are the main reason are fat, alongside sugar in processed and fast food. People in London are much less fat than people in the rest of the country, because they drive less and walk/cycle more. It's also a crowd thing - if you are surrounded by overweight people, you are more likely to become overweight, because you feel under less pressure not to. Being overweight/obese has achieved critical mass (no pun intended) in the general population. It's not about body shaming people, but it is a public health disaster and I think it is quite sad in terms of the cost to people's general happiness and wellbeing.
    Yes, that's very persuasive. Even IF fat people cost us less than slim people, in health care (I have my doubts) obesity is just a BAD thing, it is bad for self image, mental health, physical health, everything.

    Go to Las Vegas and watch hideously obese Americans eating multiple burgers and foot long burritos. They do not look happy. They are not Falstaffian.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Sport and politics should not mix .

    Give over , the bans on international sport on apartheid South Africa, was fundamental to how the state was perceived around the world.It assisted in ending the system.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    LadyG said:

    England Case data - absolute numbers

    Pillar 1 & 2

    Last 3-5 days subject to revision etc

    image

    Basically, Coronavirus in Britain has now been confined to a few northern towns with large BAME populations?
    Wigan and Shropshire looking a little interesting.

    Please take your agenda and drop it in a deep ocean. On seconds thoughts, no, not ocean dumping. Moscow, maybe?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    nichomar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Motogp riders haven't been doing anything BLM related, as far as I am aware.

    Are there any black participants?
    Don't think so. I suspect that were it not for Lewis Hamilton, F1 wouldn't have done anything either.
    Motorsport is very white.
    Arsene Wenger always used to say football is great because most kids have a go at it and so those who are talented tend to make it. Valentino Rossi called his autobiography "what if I had never tried it?" The reality is, for drivers/riders to make it requires their parents to have the desire and money to get their kid started.

    The engineering and technical side should, in theory, be more accessible.
    That's absolutely right. Football is the purest meritocracy there is. You know there is no greater footballing talent than Messi on this planet because if there was we would know about it. Motorsport - esp F1 - is towards the other end of the spectrum. At the extreme other end? Probably polo.
    Although that assumes that if you are a great footballer you should be a footballer (as opposed to say a doctor or engineer) .Not sure football is that important
    It more assumes that if you are a great footballer you WILL be a footballer.

    But tbh the thought of (say) Lionel Messi being a doctor or an engineer - even a truly excellent one - is my idea of a criminal waste of talent.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Sport and politics should not mix .

    Sports and racism should not mix.

    Ending racism is not political, unless your politics are that racism is good.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,398
    kinabalu said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    kinabalu said:

    tlg86 said:

    nichomar said:

    tlg86 said:

    Motogp riders haven't been doing anything BLM related, as far as I am aware.

    Are there any black participants?
    Don't think so. I suspect that were it not for Lewis Hamilton, F1 wouldn't have done anything either.
    Motorsport is very white.
    Arsene Wenger always used to say football is great because most kids have a go at it and so those who are talented tend to make it. Valentino Rossi called his autobiography "what if I had never tried it?" The reality is, for drivers/riders to make it requires their parents to have the desire and money to get their kid started.

    The engineering and technical side should, in theory, be more accessible.
    That's absolutely right. Football is the purest meritocracy there is. You know there is no greater footballing talent than Messi on this planet because if there was we would know about it. Motorsport - esp F1 - is towards the other end of the spectrum. At the extreme other end? Probably polo.
    Although that assumes that if you are a great footballer you should be a footballer (as opposed to say a doctor or engineer) .Not sure football is that important
    It more assumes that if you are a great footballer you WILL be a footballer.

    But tbh the thought of (say) Lionel Messi being a doctor or an engineer - even a truly excellent one - is my idea of a criminal waste of talent.
    In a way you almost hope such people are not great at other things once they retire for example. Say he turned out to be a fantastic novelist on top of being a great footballer, how unfair would that be? He'd be great at two things, and most people cannot even manage one.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    LadyG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A big mystery is the fact that in the 60s and 70s people consumed more calories than they do today but were much thinner.

    Not that much of a mystery if you think how many calories a coal miner would have consumed during a shift, for instance.
    Cars are the main reason are fat, alongside sugar in processed and fast food. People in London are much less fat than people in the rest of the country, because they drive less and walk/cycle more. It's also a crowd thing - if you are surrounded by overweight people, you are more likely to become overweight, because you feel under less pressure not to. Being overweight/obese has achieved critical mass (no pun intended) in the general population. It's not about body shaming people, but it is a public health disaster and I think it is quite sad in terms of the cost to people's general happiness and wellbeing.
    Yes, that's very persuasive. Even IF fat people cost us less than slim people, in health care (I have my doubts) obesity is just a BAD thing, it is bad for self image, mental health, physical health, everything.

    Go to Las Vegas and watch hideously obese Americans eating multiple burgers and foot long burritos. They do not look happy. They are not Falstaffian.
    I used to goto vegas a fair bit for work and found when ordering something like a sub I would end up eating half and keeping the rest for tea
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    stodge said:



    Was it supermarkets which killed the local butcher etc or modern work patterns ?

    Supermarkets are open all hours while the local butcher etc are open 9-5 at most.

    In my experience the areas which still have the local butcher etc are the more upmarket ones with affluent pensioners and non-working wives/mothers who have the time and money to do a traditional 'market street' style shop.

    Supermarkets have only extended opening hours in the past 30 years Sunday trading was introduced by the Thatcher Government and whether you support it or not, it was understandably hard for a small business to have to trade seven days a week while the big boys could afford to with ease.

    Perhaps the Homeworking Revolution will change the dynamic once again and re-vitalise local towns in the day and offer opportunities for more specialist food shops. I hope that happens.

    I'd also add under "modern work patterns" people having to work longer hours either to make ends meet or as part of a cultural shift to longer hours?

    Why don’t smaller shops open 12-8 instead of 9-5? Would make much more sense in my opinion.
  • No_Offence_AlanNo_Offence_Alan Posts: 3,702
    Takeaways are my downfall.
    A takeaway curry will be one plastic tub of curry and one plastic tub of rice.
    A supermarket "stab it" ready meal will be half a tub of each and calorie counted.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    A fat slob is still a fat slob whether they're called it or not.

    People have the freedom to make their own choices but they have to take the responsibility for what the consequences are.

    Excessive and inappropriate drinking and smoking are now not tolerated and have restrictions places upon them.

    If obesity is now to be the focus of public health action then we need to consider what action is to be taken to reduce it.

    And we need to accept that includes the stick as well as carrots.
    Nobody is saying people have the freedom to make their own choices. Why are you trying to turn this into an argument that nobody is having?

    Even if you recognise the need for people to take responsibility for themselves, we as a society can still make it easier for people to make the right choices.

    My old employer completely refurbished the office and dining environment with a partial aim to help people eat healthier. They started providing free fruit, removed many unhealthy choices from vending machines, and gave employees much more fridge space and cooking facilities. People started eating more “proper meals” at lunch time rather than chocolate and snacks. It really worked.
    Its called opening up a discussion on a current issue.

    Now giving incentives, help and advice to adopt a more healthy lifestyle are good things.

    But active discouragements are also needed - taxes on the 'wrong' food or recruitment policies which penalise unhealthy lifestyles.

    And given its relevance of the issue to it I think the NHS has a responsibility to lead by example.
    Yes, staff obesity is an issue. Particularly noticeable with the nursing staff. Too many chocolates and biscuits as presents! A lot of Trusts, including my own have positive policies aimed at health staff. In the end, it is up to individuals though.
    British cops tend to be lard-arses as well. Presumably it is the same kind of culture. Doughnuts at work, junk food at the end of the shift.
    My work people bring in cake, I just don't eat it. It isn't that difficult or if you wish to join in cut a small slice rather than half the cake as some work colleagues seem to do usually the same ones that say "I don't know why I keep putting on weight I eat like a fly"
    If you cannot resist the temptation of a workplace cake then you weren't going to maintain discipline anyway, same as being able to say no to a beer after work.
    Saying no to a beer after work is dead easy, going for a drink with my colleagues would be as fun as going out with a posse of ed milibrands
    Not much "Ally McBeal" going on in your world then.

    But seriously, say No a few times and they should stop asking.

    If they don't it's workplace bullying and should be reported.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    isam said:

    .

    LadyG said:

    England Case data - absolute numbers

    Pillar 1 & 2

    Last 3-5 days subject to revision etc

    image

    Basically, Coronavirus in Britain has now been confined to a few northern towns with large BAME populations?
    The B and ME's could justifiably raise an eyebrow at that, as could a lot of the As
    They would? Why?

    I'm just stating the case, not making an opinion. We know that Covid-19 hits BAME populations in particular - there is a striking discrepancy. It also hits poorer people and obese people. It is not, therefore, hugely surprising that the last clusters of the virus are in poorer cities with large BAME populations (and some poorer London boroughs)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Thompson, openly supporting a Marxist far left group of anti-capitalists is, however, very political.

    Looking forward to next year when F1 returns to China and we see just how morally consistent the sport and its big guns really are.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    edited July 2020
    LadyG said:

    England Case data - absolute numbers

    Pillar 1 & 2

    Last 3-5 days subject to revision etc

    image

    Basically, Coronavirus in Britain has now been confined to a few northern towns with large BAME populations?
    LadyG said:

    England Case data - absolute numbers

    Pillar 1 & 2

    Last 3-5 days subject to revision etc

    image

    Basically, Coronavirus in Britain has now been confined to a few northern towns with large BAME populations?
    A few districts in a few northern and midland towns would be more accurate.

    https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=47574f7a6e454dc6a42c5f6912ed7076
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751
    edited July 2020
    LadyG said:

    England Case data - absolute numbers

    Pillar 1 & 2

    Last 3-5 days subject to revision etc

    image

    Basically, Coronavirus in Britain has now been confined to a few northern towns with large BAME populations?
    A friend of mine who supplies medical equipment to hospitals and health centres in the West Midlands said this morning that things are still pretty bad in Walsall and Halesowen. The figures don’t appear to bear this out though.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    LadyG said:

    England Case data - absolute numbers

    Pillar 1 & 2

    Last 3-5 days subject to revision etc

    image

    Basically, Coronavirus in Britain has now been confined to a few northern towns with large BAME populations?
    Encouraging signs that it may be starting to calm down in Luton, Northampton and Peterborough. That just leaves parts of Lancs, S & W Yorks, W Mids and Leicester. Looking at the helpful table of rates per 100,000 that @Malmesbury has also provided is even more encouraging as the West Midlands fades right out as well.

    It's not gone away but it is down to background noise in most of the country. The aim now, presumably, has to be to crush the disease in the remaining hotspots before the schools come back.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Manchester City have scored I see meaning they haven't had a single game all season goalless. Sometimes things are 70/1 because that's genuinely what it should be . . . or more.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 14,912
    LadyG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A big mystery is the fact that in the 60s and 70s people consumed more calories than they do today but were much thinner.

    Not that much of a mystery if you think how many calories a coal miner would have consumed during a shift, for instance.
    Cars are the main reason are fat, alongside sugar in processed and fast food. People in London are much less fat than people in the rest of the country, because they drive less and walk/cycle more. It's also a crowd thing - if you are surrounded by overweight people, you are more likely to become overweight, because you feel under less pressure not to. Being overweight/obese has achieved critical mass (no pun intended) in the general population. It's not about body shaming people, but it is a public health disaster and I think it is quite sad in terms of the cost to people's general happiness and wellbeing.
    Yes, that's very persuasive. Even IF fat people cost us less than slim people, in health care (I have my doubts) obesity is just a BAD thing, it is bad for self image, mental health, physical health, everything.

    Go to Las Vegas and watch hideously obese Americans eating multiple burgers and foot long burritos. They do not look happy. They are not Falstaffian.
    I agree. I am very doubtful about the cost argument - it is years of ill-health that costs the NHS, not people living a long (but healthy) life. I think a society full of unhealthy overweight people is a society that has something deeply wrong with it. Look at the States, there is something obviously messed up about the place. We are heading down the same path. Anglo Saxon capitalism makes people ill. Long hours, stress, convenience food, crappy public transport, bad urban planning, too much advertising, family unfriendly culture, hyper-individualism, it's all connected and is all contributing to a miserable and unhealthy, inactive population.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,743
    Pagan2 said:


    I used to goto vegas a fair bit for work and found when ordering something like a sub I would end up eating half and keeping the rest for tea

    Ah yes, Vegas, I miss it.

    It is entirely possible to eat yourself near to death very cheap but you soon learn to play the game (in every sense).

    In southern California, there are literally all shapes and sizes. I fitted in well as I also have the body of a Greek God - not one of the better known ones, it has to be admitted.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Mr. Thompson, openly supporting a Marxist far left group of anti-capitalists is, however, very political.

    Looking forward to next year when F1 returns to China and we see just how morally consistent the sport and its big guns really are.

    Black lives matter is a reasonable thing to say regardless of what anti-capitalists say.

    If a group of Marxist far left anti-capitalists formed calling themselves Justice for the 96 then I'd still be prepared to say that.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751
    edited July 2020

    LadyG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A big mystery is the fact that in the 60s and 70s people consumed more calories than they do today but were much thinner.

    Not that much of a mystery if you think how many calories a coal miner would have consumed during a shift, for instance.
    Cars are the main reason are fat, alongside sugar in processed and fast food. People in London are much less fat than people in the rest of the country, because they drive less and walk/cycle more. It's also a crowd thing - if you are surrounded by overweight people, you are more likely to become overweight, because you feel under less pressure not to. Being overweight/obese has achieved critical mass (no pun intended) in the general population. It's not about body shaming people, but it is a public health disaster and I think it is quite sad in terms of the cost to people's general happiness and wellbeing.
    Yes, that's very persuasive. Even IF fat people cost us less than slim people, in health care (I have my doubts) obesity is just a BAD thing, it is bad for self image, mental health, physical health, everything.

    Go to Las Vegas and watch hideously obese Americans eating multiple burgers and foot long burritos. They do not look happy. They are not Falstaffian.
    I agree. I am very doubtful about the cost argument - it is years of ill-health that costs the NHS, not people living a long (but healthy) life. I think a society full of unhealthy overweight people is a society that has something deeply wrong with it. Look at the States, there is something obviously messed up about the place. We are heading down the same path. Anglo Saxon capitalism makes people ill. Long hours, stress, convenience food, crappy public transport, bad urban planning, too much advertising, family unfriendly culture, hyper-individualism, it's all connected and is all contributing to a miserable and unhealthy, inactive population.
    Given that the Soviet Union in its later years had falling life expectancy (one of the few countries in the world that did at that time) due to the shockingly unhealthy lifestyles of its inhabitants, you might want to blame ill health on something other than ‘Anglo Saxon capitalism.’
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    LadyG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A big mystery is the fact that in the 60s and 70s people consumed more calories than they do today but were much thinner.

    Not that much of a mystery if you think how many calories a coal miner would have consumed during a shift, for instance.
    Cars are the main reason are fat, alongside sugar in processed and fast food. People in London are much less fat than people in the rest of the country, because they drive less and walk/cycle more. It's also a crowd thing - if you are surrounded by overweight people, you are more likely to become overweight, because you feel under less pressure not to. Being overweight/obese has achieved critical mass (no pun intended) in the general population. It's not about body shaming people, but it is a public health disaster and I think it is quite sad in terms of the cost to people's general happiness and wellbeing.
    Yes, that's very persuasive. Even IF fat people cost us less than slim people, in health care (I have my doubts) obesity is just a BAD thing, it is bad for self image, mental health, physical health, everything.

    Go to Las Vegas and watch hideously obese Americans eating multiple burgers and foot long burritos. They do not look happy. They are not Falstaffian.
    I agree. I am very doubtful about the cost argument - it is years of ill-health that costs the NHS, not people living a long (but healthy) life. I think a society full of unhealthy overweight people is a society that has something deeply wrong with it. Look at the States, there is something obviously messed up about the place. We are heading down the same path. Anglo Saxon capitalism makes people ill. Long hours, stress, convenience food, crappy public transport, bad urban planning, too much advertising, family unfriendly culture, hyper-individualism, it's all connected and is all contributing to a miserable and unhealthy, inactive population.
    Absolutely right.

    And on top of that, heedless capitalism is trashing the planet (tho this is not an Anglo thing, the Chinese and the Indians are doing their best, as well)

    If there is any upside to this terrible plague, it will be a rethink of pernicious lifestyles (hopefully, without destroying economies, God willing).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,751
    edited July 2020
    Sibley’s actually quite a pleasant player to watch. He times the ball well.

    But he seems totally unable to do anything other then tap it beautifully to a fielder.

    Mind you, he does it along the ground and as a result he stays in long enough to score the odd run.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,631
    kinabalu said:

    Pagan2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    LadyG said:

    Foxy said:

    Re the government's new obesity drive.

    What action will they take against obese NHS workers ?

    Over the years I've seen some grossly overweight people in NHS uniforms and thought it was a terrible example to set.

    To be expected when people are working 12 hour shifts on poor wages. Why cook yourself a healthy meal when you get home from your shift when you can eat a kebab from the chippie?
    Poor wages ? LOL

    Not to mention that food is much cheaper to buy and cook yourself compared with grotty takeaways.

    And what do they do on all their days off ?

    Or that some of the fatties I've seen look like they're both cooking at home and going to the grotty takeaways.
    Your lack of empathy is something else.

    It doesn’t matter that food is cheaper to cook yourself. What matters is convenience. I find it difficult to be arsed to cook after coming home from a 9-5, never-mind a 8-8, or longer.
    Its called taking some responsibility for yourself - most people do it, PB is full of anecdotes about diet and fitness regimes, so why not fat slobs as well.

    If obesity is such a major health and social problem, and I agree that it is, then the NHS should be setting an example.

    I'm not complaining about people who are overweight or drink too many units but those who are grossly obese.
    Calling people “fat slobs” is not a way to motivate someone to be healthier.

    There’s a culture in the NHS, and in many other jobs, of everyone bringing in cake, chocolate, sweets all the time to eat at lunch time etc. That’s on top of the difficulty of making healthy choices when you’re exhausted - something thats exacerbated by unhealthiness.

    Just because you manage to make “health choices” doesn’t mean someone else is weak or lazy because they don’t.
    A fat slob is still a fat slob whether they're called it or not.

    People have the freedom to make their own choices but they have to take the responsibility for what the consequences are.

    Excessive and inappropriate drinking and smoking are now not tolerated and have restrictions places upon them.

    If obesity is now to be the focus of public health action then we need to consider what action is to be taken to reduce it.

    And we need to accept that includes the stick as well as carrots.
    Nobody is saying people have the freedom to make their own choices. Why are you trying to turn this into an argument that nobody is having?

    Even if you recognise the need for people to take responsibility for themselves, we as a society can still make it easier for people to make the right choices.

    My old employer completely refurbished the office and dining environment with a partial aim to help people eat healthier. They started providing free fruit, removed many unhealthy choices from vending machines, and gave employees much more fridge space and cooking facilities. People started eating more “proper meals” at lunch time rather than chocolate and snacks. It really worked.
    Its called opening up a discussion on a current issue.

    Now giving incentives, help and advice to adopt a more healthy lifestyle are good things.

    But active discouragements are also needed - taxes on the 'wrong' food or recruitment policies which penalise unhealthy lifestyles.

    And given its relevance of the issue to it I think the NHS has a responsibility to lead by example.
    Yes, staff obesity is an issue. Particularly noticeable with the nursing staff. Too many chocolates and biscuits as presents! A lot of Trusts, including my own have positive policies aimed at health staff. In the end, it is up to individuals though.
    British cops tend to be lard-arses as well. Presumably it is the same kind of culture. Doughnuts at work, junk food at the end of the shift.
    My work people bring in cake, I just don't eat it. It isn't that difficult or if you wish to join in cut a small slice rather than half the cake as some work colleagues seem to do usually the same ones that say "I don't know why I keep putting on weight I eat like a fly"
    If you cannot resist the temptation of a workplace cake then you weren't going to maintain discipline anyway, same as being able to say no to a beer after work.
    Saying no to a beer after work is dead easy, going for a drink with my colleagues would be as fun as going out with a posse of ed milibrands
    Not much "Ally McBeal" going on in your world then.

    But seriously, say No a few times and they should stop asking.

    If they don't it's workplace bullying and should be reported.
    But I could also probably report them for work place bullying if they invite the whole team but not me....

    See thats HR bollocks right there at work. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. This is where your wokeism gets you eventually

    As to Ally McBeal well anyone that tries for a date with anyone at work is in my mind absolutely mad....the possibilities for being reported to hr are endless there. I would be interested to see how the statistics on finding your spouse have work have changed since the 90's. Most guys I know would bite their hand off rather than make a comment to a female colleague that could be even vaguely thought of as flirtatious
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    dixiedean said:

    Playing Everton when you really need 3 points has its advantages.

    dixiedean said:

    Playing Everton when you really need 3 points has its advantages.

    Foxy said:

    LadyG said:

    England Case data - absolute numbers

    Pillar 1 & 2

    Last 3-5 days subject to revision etc

    image

    Basically, Coronavirus in Britain has now been confined to a few northern towns with large BAME populations?
    Interesting flare up in Melton. Pedigree Pet Foods?
    Would be surprised given the health and hygiene standards of Mars inc.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,398
    edited July 2020
    Well, ominous headline, but at least the bit about changing the way courts operate has been dropped apparently, at least for now, if only to rush other bits.
    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1286777109382299649
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,851
    isam said:

    kinabalu said:

    Fair point - but remember Goodwin is a University man. He's probably surrounded by students who think everyone's woke.

    The football thing is getting absurd. I cannot see why game after game the players should be kneeling in this fashion - there are so many other causes/injustices around the world that deserve attention and not all of them involve white people.

    Football relies heavily on black talent so the issue is particularly resonant.
    0-0 85-90 MC vs NC
    Yes, I got some 90. But my trade failed due to early City goal. Needed another few minutes. Ah well. :smile:
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    ydoethur said:

    LadyG said:

    Andy_JS said:

    A big mystery is the fact that in the 60s and 70s people consumed more calories than they do today but were much thinner.

    Not that much of a mystery if you think how many calories a coal miner would have consumed during a shift, for instance.
    Cars are the main reason are fat, alongside sugar in processed and fast food. People in London are much less fat than people in the rest of the country, because they drive less and walk/cycle more. It's also a crowd thing - if you are surrounded by overweight people, you are more likely to become overweight, because you feel under less pressure not to. Being overweight/obese has achieved critical mass (no pun intended) in the general population. It's not about body shaming people, but it is a public health disaster and I think it is quite sad in terms of the cost to people's general happiness and wellbeing.
    Yes, that's very persuasive. Even IF fat people cost us less than slim people, in health care (I have my doubts) obesity is just a BAD thing, it is bad for self image, mental health, physical health, everything.

    Go to Las Vegas and watch hideously obese Americans eating multiple burgers and foot long burritos. They do not look happy. They are not Falstaffian.
    I agree. I am very doubtful about the cost argument - it is years of ill-health that costs the NHS, not people living a long (but healthy) life. I think a society full of unhealthy overweight people is a society that has something deeply wrong with it. Look at the States, there is something obviously messed up about the place. We are heading down the same path. Anglo Saxon capitalism makes people ill. Long hours, stress, convenience food, crappy public transport, bad urban planning, too much advertising, family unfriendly culture, hyper-individualism, it's all connected and is all contributing to a miserable and unhealthy, inactive population.
    Given that the Soviet Union in its later years had falling life expectancy (one of the few countries in the world that did at that time) due to the shockingly unhealthy lifestyles of its inhabitants, you might want to blame ill health on something other than ‘Anglo Saxon capitalism.’
    It's not much better under Putin.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,624
    ydoethur said:

    LadyG said:

    England Case data - absolute numbers

    Pillar 1 & 2

    Last 3-5 days subject to revision etc

    image

    Basically, Coronavirus in Britain has now been confined to a few northern towns with large BAME populations?
    A friend of mine who supplies medical equipment to hospitals and health centres in the West Midlands said this morning that things are still pretty bad in Walsall and Halesowen. The figures don’t appear to bear this out though.
    Medical equipment would suggest people in hospital? As in numbers of long term cases with bad effects?
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