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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Disastrous favourability ratings for Johnson in Scotland but a

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited July 31 in General
imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Disastrous favourability ratings for Johnson in Scotland but a glimmer of hope for Starmer

Regular PBers will know that at this stage before a general election I take much more notice of leadership ratings than voting intention polls. With the former those sampled are asked for simply an opinion whereas with voting questions they are asked to predict what they might or might not do in 3/4 years time when they could not even turn out. When tested in real elections such as 1992 and 2015 the leader ratings have got the outcome right while the voting polls have been wrong.

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Comments

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 1,114
    Firstish?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 11,710
    Bozo despised in Scotland. Coleslaw is his fall guy.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 13,332
    Every second counts
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,069
    Oh no, how ever will Boris manage with only the 98.4% of his seats that come from outside Scotland? Truly an irrecoverable disaster, and Starmer nailed on, or something...
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,928
    I'm susprised they managed to find 17 people 'very unfavourable' to Starmer. It's like being 'very unfavourable' toward a tepid cup of tea. What on earth can you find to be so annoyed about?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 34,369
    FPT

    Pilots Union Balpa: BA pilots have voted to accept a package of job losses and pay cuts aimed at avoiding more redundancies

    Big fail for McCluskey and Starmer who backed the Unite union in proposing strike action
  • TomsToms Posts: 1,943
    After that gawdawful hijacking of Mike's site a day or two ago by some sort of digital bank I haven't been able to sign into the usual site. If this be true for everybody, then it can't help attract new punters (pronounced p-u-n-t-e-r). It's happened before and was mended eventually.
  • fox327fox327 Posts: 200
    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 34,369
    fox327 said:

    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    All in good time.

    Boris needs to conclude brexit then call it a day
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 30,103

    Bozo despised in Scotland. Coleslaw is his fall guy. Bear shits in woods.

    FTFY.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 4,000
    fox327 said:

    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    Unionists of the left and the right should drop their mutual antipathy and combine to see off the Nats.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 30,103
    edited July 31
    fox327 said:

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    Oh no, how ever will Boris manage with only the 98.4% of his seats that come from outside Scotland? Truly an irrecoverable disaster, and Starmer nailed on, or something...

    I think that answers your point @fox327, and not in a good way.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 5,206
    fox327 said:

    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    If they find an even halfway effective vaccine then they are going to want to jab the whole country with it. If it has significant deleterious side-effects then that could turn out to do more damage than Covid. The approval process can, therefore, only be hurried along by so much.

    It's arguable that the Union is beyond saving, or at the very least that it might be salvageable but neither the Tories nor Labour are willing to try, for their own selfish reasons. No number of leadership changes is liable to deal with that.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 15,267
    edited July 31

    Bozo despised in Scotland. Coleslaw is his fall guy.

    Please don't fall for the weak pish that Carlaw was forced out by Downing Street.

    The senior SCons had their preferred replacement lined up and ready to go the nano second Carlaw announced he was. Some even mentioned Ross in their "so sad to see Carlaw go" statements so eager were they to get on with the defenestration.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 2,885
    fox327 said:

    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    Listen to Newscast episode this week, "Inside AstraZeneka". Not true to say traditional slow regimes are being adhered to. They are busting a gut on this.

    Aim is for a vaccine with at least one year`s effectiveness. UK gov has already placed order.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 5,206
    geoffw said:

    fox327 said:

    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    Unionists of the left and the right should drop their mutual antipathy and combine to see off the Nats.
    That's a hopeless proposition. Any kind of Tory/Labour pact (which isn't going to happen in any event) will simply result in Labour being denounced as Tories by the SNP and half of Labour's vote believing them and defecting.

    If the opposition to the SNP consists entirely of Tories then they'll keep winning 60% or more of the popular vote every time an election is held.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 1,114
  • BournvilleBournville Posts: 34
    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 923
    Like others, I am finding the site almost inaccessible.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 16,902
    geoffw said:

    fox327 said:

    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    Unionists of the left and the right should drop their mutual antipathy and combine to see off the Nats.
    Labour Unionists tying themselves to Bozo will be tainted by the association. Nailed on for Indy Scotland if they do.
  • dodradedodrade Posts: 465
    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 4,000
      

    geoffw said:

    fox327 said:

    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    Unionists of the left and the right should drop their mutual antipathy and combine to see off the Nats.
    That's a hopeless proposition. Any kind of Tory/Labour pact (which isn't going to happen in any event) will simply result in Labour being denounced as Tories by the SNP and half of Labour's vote believing them and defecting.

    If the opposition to the SNP consists entirely of Tories then they'll keep winning 60% or more of the popular vote every time an election is held.
    It works where I'm sitting. Con and LibDem unionists support the Labour candidate against the SNP threat. Elsewhere there could be unionist pacts in favour of other parties.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 4,542
    edited July 31
    Foxy said:

    Labour Unionists tying themselves to Bozo will be tainted by the association. Nailed on for Indy Scotland if they do.

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 21,105
    Alistair said:

    Bozo despised in Scotland. Coleslaw is his fall guy.

    Please don't fall for the weak pish that Carlaw was forced out by Downing Street.

    The senior SCons had their preferred replacement lined up and ready to go the nano second Carlaw announced he was. Some even mentioned Ross in their "so sad to see Carlaw go" statements so eager were they to get on with the defenestration.
    By hook or by crook, Carlaw had to go.
    It was obvious he was a massive drag on SCon popularity.

  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 923
    3.000 new cases in Spain. Ouch-ola
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    When we have people like HYUFD actively espousing colonial administration of Scotland, it's only to be expected that there is a reaction.

    Either you regard Scottish MPs as MPs, or you don't, in which case the Union is a lie and a phantasy.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 30,103
    LadyG said:

    Like others, I am finding the site almost inaccessible.

    I would suggest trying another browser but I fear in your case it might lead to an embarrassing confusion...
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 4,000
    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    He's disliked by the Nats.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 47,661

    Alistair said:

    Bozo despised in Scotland. Coleslaw is his fall guy.

    Please don't fall for the weak pish that Carlaw was forced out by Downing Street.

    The senior SCons had their preferred replacement lined up and ready to go the nano second Carlaw announced he was. Some even mentioned Ross in their "so sad to see Carlaw go" statements so eager were they to get on with the defenestration.
    By hook or by crook, Carlaw had to go.
    It was obvious he was a massive drag on SCon popularity.

    Laying the groundwork for a Scottish Tory Surge. Can't do that if you are already ahead, can you?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 33,319

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    You think everyone in the rest of the UK is against Scottish independence?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 2,730
    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    They’re a generally more discriminating people?
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 1,114

    geoffw said:

    fox327 said:

    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    Unionists of the left and the right should drop their mutual antipathy and combine to see off the Nats.
    That's a hopeless proposition. Any kind of Tory/Labour pact (which isn't going to happen in any event) will simply result in Labour being denounced as Tories by the SNP and half of Labour's vote believing them and defecting.

    If the opposition to the SNP consists entirely of Tories then they'll keep winning 60% or more of the popular vote every time an election is held.
    What about launching a few backfires:
    > Orkney Nationalist Party
    > Shetland Home Rule Party
    > Pictish Freedom Front
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023

    geoffw said:

    fox327 said:

    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    Unionists of the left and the right should drop their mutual antipathy and combine to see off the Nats.
    That's a hopeless proposition. Any kind of Tory/Labour pact (which isn't going to happen in any event) will simply result in Labour being denounced as Tories by the SNP and half of Labour's vote believing them and defecting.

    If the opposition to the SNP consists entirely of Tories then they'll keep winning 60% or more of the popular vote every time an election is held.
    What about launching a few backfires:
    > Orkney Nationalist Party
    > Shetland Home Rule Party
    > Pictish Freedom Front
    Done that in 2014. Nobody believed these astroturf efforts.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 30,103

    geoffw said:

    fox327 said:

    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    Unionists of the left and the right should drop their mutual antipathy and combine to see off the Nats.
    That's a hopeless proposition. Any kind of Tory/Labour pact (which isn't going to happen in any event) will simply result in Labour being denounced as Tories by the SNP and half of Labour's vote believing them and defecting.

    If the opposition to the SNP consists entirely of Tories then they'll keep winning 60% or more of the popular vote every time an election is held.
    What about launching a few backfires:
    > Orkney Nationalist Party
    > Shetland Home Rule Party
    > Pictish Freedom Front
    The Gaels of Change?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023
    geoffw said:

    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    He's disliked by the Nats.

    If you mean Britnats and Brexiters, yes. Certainly in my experience. Two old gents with politics fixed before Suez denounced Mr Johnson as an utter clown and couldn't thole the idea that he was now PM.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023
    geoffw said:

      

    geoffw said:

    fox327 said:

    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    Unionists of the left and the right should drop their mutual antipathy and combine to see off the Nats.
    That's a hopeless proposition. Any kind of Tory/Labour pact (which isn't going to happen in any event) will simply result in Labour being denounced as Tories by the SNP and half of Labour's vote believing them and defecting.

    If the opposition to the SNP consists entirely of Tories then they'll keep winning 60% or more of the popular vote every time an election is held.
    It works where I'm sitting. Con and LibDem unionists support the Labour candidate against the SNP threat. Elsewhere there could be unionist pacts in favour of other parties.
    So? Basically you are focussed on constitutional politics to the expense of all else.

    Which is what the Unionists are doiung all the time.

    All the **** time
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,928
    geoffw said:

    fox327 said:

    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    Unionists of the left and the right should drop their mutual antipathy and combine to see off the Nats.
    With respect, I think that's the worst thing the Tories and Labour can do. The best thing they can do is remain different, opposed, and tackle the SNP from two sides. No point in being Malc's 'two cheeks of the same arse'.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 4,000
    Carnyx said:

    geoffw said:

    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    He's disliked by the Nats.

    If you mean Britnats and Brexiters, yes. Certainly in my experience. Two old gents with politics fixed before Suez denounced Mr Johnson as an utter clown and couldn't thole the idea that he was now PM.
    Gibberish.

  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 1,114
    edited July 31
    Carnyx said:

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    When we have people like HYUFD actively espousing colonial administration of Scotland, it's only to be expected that there is a reaction.

    Either you regard Scottish MPs as MPs, or you don't, in which case the Union is a lie and a phantasy.
    Isn't trying to resolve the Midlothian Argument by means other than cutting the Gordian knot via Scottish independence one key reason for establishing English parliament(s)? A Federal United Kingdom.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023
    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    I can't understand it either - even the most right wing and Brexiter types can't cope with the idea of him as PM. Including folk whom one would expect to knuckle their brows to a laird, however Anglicified at Eton. .

    Maybe the problem is with the English voters ...
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,928
    Land?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,331
    The new Scon leader will have their work cut out for them.

    geoffw said:

    fox327 said:

    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    Unionists of the left and the right should drop their mutual antipathy and combine to see off the Nats.
    With respect, I think that's the worst thing the Tories and Labour can do. The best thing they can do is remain different, opposed, and tackle the SNP from two sides. No point in being Malc's 'two cheeks of the same arse'.
    Yes, it doesn't seem realistic to literally combine, but I hope that their unionism is strong enough that they accept the necessity of working togetherwhen facing the nationalists. More that unites than divides.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023

    geoffw said:

    fox327 said:

    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    Unionists of the left and the right should drop their mutual antipathy and combine to see off the Nats.
    With respect, I think that's the worst thing the Tories and Labour can do. The best thing they can do is remain different, opposed, and tackle the SNP from two sides. No point in being Malc's 'two cheeks of the same arse'.
    Labour never recovered from joining with the Tories in 2014. Though Ms Dugdale and Mr Murray did advocate voting Tory in 2017 to keep the SNP out. Fat lot of good it did the Labour Party, whethjer in Scotland or the UK.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 21,105
    geoffw said:

    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    He's disliked by the Nats.

    So 51% of Scots are Nats? I'll take that.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023

    Carnyx said:

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    When we have people like HYUFD actively espousing colonial administration of Scotland, it's only to be expected that there is a reaction.

    Either you regard Scottish MPs as MPs, or you don't, in which case the Union is a lie and a phantasy.
    Isn't trying to resolve the Midlothian Argument by means other than cutting the Gordian knot via Scottish independence one key reason for establishing English parliament(s)? A Federal United Kingdom.
    I've been telling the Southron here for years to solve the West Lothian argument (Midlothian is where Gladstone gave his speeches ...). But they won't break up England to make a decent federation of the UK.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,331

    Oh no, how ever will Boris manage with only the 98.4% of his seats that come from outside Scotland? Truly an irrecoverable disaster, and Starmer nailed on, or something...

    The potential of loss of unionist appeal and strength in Scotland is a concern even if Boris personally can indeed get by in the next few years without it.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 28,710
    fox327 said:

    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    Trial protocols are there for a reason. Thalidomide is what happens when you don’t have proper testing*

    The government has been very proactive in their strategy - providing funding, accelerating from phase 1/2 to phase 2b/3 immediately, securing supply agreements and purchasing their own vaccine manufacturing strategy. Kate Bingham deserves a lot of praise and, I hope, a peerage in due course

    The government has made a lot of mistakes and deserves criticism. Their vaccine strategy is an area they should be praised

    * time for my regular reminder that Grunenthal should be ashamed of themselves for their refusal to compensate non German victims
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023
    geoffw said:

    Carnyx said:

    geoffw said:

    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    He's disliked by the Nats.

    If you mean Britnats and Brexiters, yes. Certainly in my experience. Two old gents with politics fixed before Suez denounced Mr Johnson as an utter clown and couldn't thole the idea that he was now PM.
    Gibberish.

    I am telling you: two key prime target voters, in Scotland, for the Tories and Brexit could not cope with the idea that he was now Prime Minister of the UK.

    Okay?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,928
    Carnyx said:

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    When we have people like HYUFD actively espousing colonial administration of Scotland, it's only to be expected that there is a reaction.

    Either you regard Scottish MPs as MPs, or you don't, in which case the Union is a lie and a phantasy.
    Didn't know HYUFD was that influential. Will you call off this indy lark if we deliver him, hog-tied, to an agreed location? I feel it's what he would want. :lol:
  • TresTres Posts: 137
    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    He's full of shite and the bumbling buffoon act is all too clearly an act.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,331
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    When we have people like HYUFD actively espousing colonial administration of Scotland, it's only to be expected that there is a reaction.

    Either you regard Scottish MPs as MPs, or you don't, in which case the Union is a lie and a phantasy.
    Isn't trying to resolve the Midlothian Argument by means other than cutting the Gordian knot via Scottish independence one key reason for establishing English parliament(s)? A Federal United Kingdom.
    I've been telling the Southron here for years to solve the West Lothian argument (Midlothian is where Gladstone gave his speeches ...). But they won't break up England to make a decent federation of the UK.
    A solution that carves up England like that is not a solution. It may well be it is not solvable, but if you change so something so radically in order to save it you can lose part of what you were attempting to save in the first place.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 55,331

    Carnyx said:

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    When we have people like HYUFD actively espousing colonial administration of Scotland, it's only to be expected that there is a reaction.

    Either you regard Scottish MPs as MPs, or you don't, in which case the Union is a lie and a phantasy.
    Isn't trying to resolve the Midlothian Argument by means other than cutting the Gordian knot via Scottish independence one key reason for establishing English parliament(s)? A Federal United Kingdom.
    Probably too late, but it may have been the only option if it had happened from the start of this particular phase of the UK.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023

    Carnyx said:

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    When we have people like HYUFD actively espousing colonial administration of Scotland, it's only to be expected that there is a reaction.

    Either you regard Scottish MPs as MPs, or you don't, in which case the Union is a lie and a phantasy.
    Didn't know HYUFD was that influential. Will you call off this indy lark if we deliver him, hog-tied, to an agreed location? I feel it's what he would want. :lol:
    More representative than influential, perhaps. But a canary in the mine.

  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 4,000

    geoffw said:

    fox327 said:

    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    Unionists of the left and the right should drop their mutual antipathy and combine to see off the Nats.
    With respect, I think that's the worst thing the Tories and Labour can do. The best thing they can do is remain different, opposed, and tackle the SNP from two sides. No point in being Malc's 'two cheeks of the same arse'.
    I'm not saying they trim their policies but that they accept that only one of them stand as the unionist candidate in their constituency. In South Edinburgh this has happened in a self-organised manner without central direction. Elsewhere there could be more or less explicit alliances.
    Perhaps it's a pipe dream.

  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 2,069
    edited July 31
    kle4 said:

    Oh no, how ever will Boris manage with only the 98.4% of his seats that come from outside Scotland? Truly an irrecoverable disaster, and Starmer nailed on, or something...

    The potential of loss of unionist appeal and strength in Scotland is a concern even if Boris personally can indeed get by in the next few years without it.
    Of course it is - I'm just responding to the absurd spin in the header that the loss of 6 seats - even if they were all lost, which i doubt - would be a 'matter of real concern'. Besides, if Starmer's all that, then he should be able to contribute to the effort to return some SNP seats to the Unionist side by winning them for his party.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023
    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    When we have people like HYUFD actively espousing colonial administration of Scotland, it's only to be expected that there is a reaction.

    Either you regard Scottish MPs as MPs, or you don't, in which case the Union is a lie and a phantasy.
    Isn't trying to resolve the Midlothian Argument by means other than cutting the Gordian knot via Scottish independence one key reason for establishing English parliament(s)? A Federal United Kingdom.
    I've been telling the Southron here for years to solve the West Lothian argument (Midlothian is where Gladstone gave his speeches ...). But they won't break up England to make a decent federation of the UK.
    A solution that carves up England like that is not a solution. It may well be it is not solvable, but if you change so something so radically in order to save it you can lose part of what you were attempting to save in the first place.
    Quite so, re return to A/S Heptarchy.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,928
    geoffw said:

    geoffw said:

    fox327 said:

    It looks to me possible that a second wave of the virus is coming, but it will probably peak like the first wave did. Social distancing has failed to prevent a second wave, and it will go on failing, then succeeding for a bit, before failing again.

    There is only one thing that can stop this, a vaccine. Only the government can approve a vaccine - not the public. Why is it taking so long to progress a vaccine? There are several good candidates, but there is an insistence on following the traditional slow testing regimes that were not designed for the crisis we are in, which calls for the fastest possible response. The government has to move soon on this, or it is likely to lose control of events later in the year.

    OT. If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    Unionists of the left and the right should drop their mutual antipathy and combine to see off the Nats.
    With respect, I think that's the worst thing the Tories and Labour can do. The best thing they can do is remain different, opposed, and tackle the SNP from two sides. No point in being Malc's 'two cheeks of the same arse'.
    I'm not saying they trim their policies but that they accept that only one of them stand as the unionist candidate in their constituency. In South Edinburgh this has happened in a self-organised manner without central direction. Elsewhere there could be more or less explicit alliances.
    Perhaps it's a pipe dream.

    I think there's still a risk in doing it too obviously. Allocation of funding and human resource sort of does that anyway.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023
    Tres said:

    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    He's full of shite and the bumbling buffoon act is all too clearly an act.
    Yet why such a different perception south of the border? I can't understand it.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,928
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    When we have people like HYUFD actively espousing colonial administration of Scotland, it's only to be expected that there is a reaction.

    Either you regard Scottish MPs as MPs, or you don't, in which case the Union is a lie and a phantasy.
    Didn't know HYUFD was that influential. Will you call off this indy lark if we deliver him, hog-tied, to an agreed location? I feel it's what he would want. :lol:
    More representative than influential, perhaps. But a canary in the mine.

    I really appreciate HYUFD's contribution here, but I wouldn't go so far as to call him representative. If anything, he's a one-off.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 1,114
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    When we have people like HYUFD actively espousing colonial administration of Scotland, it's only to be expected that there is a reaction.

    Either you regard Scottish MPs as MPs, or you don't, in which case the Union is a lie and a phantasy.
    Isn't trying to resolve the Midlothian Argument by means other than cutting the Gordian knot via Scottish independence one key reason for establishing English parliament(s)? A Federal United Kingdom.
    I've been telling the Southron here for years to solve the West Lothian argument (Midlothian is where Gladstone gave his speeches ...). But they won't break up England to make a decent federation of the UK.
    Stand corrected as to which Lothian is which. And what's East Lothian? Chopped haggis?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 5,206
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    When we have people like HYUFD actively espousing colonial administration of Scotland, it's only to be expected that there is a reaction.

    Either you regard Scottish MPs as MPs, or you don't, in which case the Union is a lie and a phantasy.
    Isn't trying to resolve the Midlothian Argument by means other than cutting the Gordian knot via Scottish independence one key reason for establishing English parliament(s)? A Federal United Kingdom.
    I've been telling the Southron here for years to solve the West Lothian argument (Midlothian is where Gladstone gave his speeches ...). But they won't break up England to make a decent federation of the UK.
    England doesn't need to be broken up into a collection of artificial cantons for any reason, least of all in an effort to satisfy Scotland that will most likely fail anyway.

    In principle there's no reason why a federal system comprising four states, in which one of them just happens to be much larger than the other three, cannot work. In practice, excuses are invented because it doesn't suit the two major parties at Westminster to split up the big train set. Therefore, the unresolved tensions within the structure of the United Kingdom will continue to build until it collapses.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023
    edited July 31

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    When we have people like HYUFD actively espousing colonial administration of Scotland, it's only to be expected that there is a reaction.

    Either you regard Scottish MPs as MPs, or you don't, in which case the Union is a lie and a phantasy.
    Isn't trying to resolve the Midlothian Argument by means other than cutting the Gordian knot via Scottish independence one key reason for establishing English parliament(s)? A Federal United Kingdom.
    I've been telling the Southron here for years to solve the West Lothian argument (Midlothian is where Gladstone gave his speeches ...). But they won't break up England to make a decent federation of the UK.
    Stand corrected as to which Lothian is which. And what's East Lothian? Chopped haggis?
    Nah, golf courses, seaside resorts and high farming with a postindustrial fringe on the [edit] west. If there was a county dish it'd be haddock and chips (albeit the fish is now landed just outwith the county at Eyemouth).
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,928
    I think the cause of Unionism would be advanced somewhat by separate Scottish Unionist parties like NI's UUP and DUP. I've thought for some time that what a lot of Scottish voters want is for Scotland to be fiercely defended within the Union, not necessarily to be cut adrift from it.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 923
    edited July 31
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    When we have people like HYUFD actively espousing colonial administration of Scotland, it's only to be expected that there is a reaction.

    Either you regard Scottish MPs as MPs, or you don't, in which case the Union is a lie and a phantasy.
    Isn't trying to resolve the Midlothian Argument by means other than cutting the Gordian knot via Scottish independence one key reason for establishing English parliament(s)? A Federal United Kingdom.
    I've been telling the Southron here for years to solve the West Lothian argument (Midlothian is where Gladstone gave his speeches ...). But they won't break up England to make a decent federation of the UK.
    The unpopularity of Boris in the North kind of solves itself. He is certain to refuse a new referendum, if he is likely to lose it. That is all. The SNP can rage and puff, but it matters nought. If the Tories think they will lose indyref2, well, then, they have nothing to lose by saying No (and by deliberately not losing from the off, as it were)

    There won't be a referendum until 2024. The Tories will tempt the Nats to do a suicidal UDI (I don't think Sturgeon is that stupid, other Nats may be).

    So the next indyref will be in the latter half of the 2020s, under probable PM Kier Starmer. Justifiably a generation after the latter, but with much water and Brexit under the bridge. Hard to call.
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 1,114
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    When we have people like HYUFD actively espousing colonial administration of Scotland, it's only to be expected that there is a reaction.

    Either you regard Scottish MPs as MPs, or you don't, in which case the Union is a lie and a phantasy.
    Isn't trying to resolve the Midlothian Argument by means other than cutting the Gordian knot via Scottish independence one key reason for establishing English parliament(s)? A Federal United Kingdom.
    I've been telling the Southron here for years to solve the West Lothian argument (Midlothian is where Gladstone gave his speeches ...). But they won't break up England to make a decent federation of the UK.
    Stand corrected as to which Lothian is which. And what's East Lothian? Chopped haggis?
    Nah, golf courses, seaside resorts and high farming with a postindustrial fringe on the [edit] west. If there was a county dish it'd be haddock and chips (albeit the fish is now landed just outwith the county at Eyemouth).
    Years ago went though East Lothian on train from York to Edinburgh, was a sunny day and a wonderful view, would definitely like to check it out closer to the ground.
  • dodradedodrade Posts: 465
    edited July 31
    Carnyx said:

    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    I can't understand it either - even the most right wing and Brexiter types can't cope with the idea of him as PM. Including folk whom one would expect to knuckle their brows to a laird, however Anglicified at Eton. .

    Maybe the problem is with the English voters ...
    Boris seems to have the same effect on his detractors Homer Simpson had on Frank Grimes, as if his general levity is somehow a personal affront.

    He has a considerable working class following though in England and Wales that isn't replicated in Scotland. Do they simply prefer dour personalities?
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023

    I think the cause of Unionism would be advanced somewhat by separate Scottish Unionist parties like NI's UUP and DUP. I've thought for some time that what a lot of Scottish voters want is for Scotland to be fiercely defended within the Union, not necessarily to be cut adrift from it.

    The Tories in Scotland - the UNionist Party - historically declined from the moment they joined with the Conservatives in England in the mid-1950s. .

    B ut there may be other reasons ...
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 923
    Fuck me its 25C and nearly 10pm
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    When we have people like HYUFD actively espousing colonial administration of Scotland, it's only to be expected that there is a reaction.

    Either you regard Scottish MPs as MPs, or you don't, in which case the Union is a lie and a phantasy.
    Isn't trying to resolve the Midlothian Argument by means other than cutting the Gordian knot via Scottish independence one key reason for establishing English parliament(s)? A Federal United Kingdom.
    I've been telling the Southron here for years to solve the West Lothian argument (Midlothian is where Gladstone gave his speeches ...). But they won't break up England to make a decent federation of the UK.
    Stand corrected as to which Lothian is which. And what's East Lothian? Chopped haggis?
    Nah, golf courses, seaside resorts and high farming with a postindustrial fringe on the [edit] west. If there was a county dish it'd be haddock and chips (albeit the fish is now landed just outwith the county at Eyemouth).
    Years ago went though East Lothian on train from York to Edinburgh, was a sunny day and a wonderful view, would definitely like to check it out closer to the ground.
    Oh, that does give an excellent impression.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 11,710

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    When we have people like HYUFD actively espousing colonial administration of Scotland, it's only to be expected that there is a reaction.

    Either you regard Scottish MPs as MPs, or you don't, in which case the Union is a lie and a phantasy.
    Isn't trying to resolve the Midlothian Argument by means other than cutting the Gordian knot via Scottish independence one key reason for establishing English parliament(s)? A Federal United Kingdom.
    I've been telling the Southron here for years to solve the West Lothian argument (Midlothian is where Gladstone gave his speeches ...). But they won't break up England to make a decent federation of the UK.
    England doesn't need to be broken up into a collection of artificial cantons for any reason, least of all in an effort to satisfy Scotland that will most likely fail anyway.

    In principle there's no reason why a federal system comprising four states, in which one of them just happens to be much larger than the other three, cannot work. In practice, excuses are invented because it doesn't suit the two major parties at Westminster to split up the big train set. Therefore, the unresolved tensions within the structure of the United Kingdom will continue to build until it collapses.
    Describing Yorkshire as an 'Artificial Canton' wouldn't go down too well round these parts!
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 1,114
    dodrade said:

    Carnyx said:

    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    I can't understand it either - even the most right wing and Brexiter types can't cope with the idea of him as PM. Including folk whom one would expect to knuckle their brows to a laird, however Anglicified at Eton. .

    Maybe the problem is with the English voters ...
    Boris seems to have the same effect on his detractors Homer Simpson had on Frank Grimes, as if his levity is somehow a personal affront.

    He has a considerable working class following though in England and Wales that isn't replicated in Scotland. Do they simply prefer dour personalities?
    BoJo simply doesn't make the comedic bar compared with Edinburgh Fringe Festival (the one NOT held at Holyrood).
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023
    dodrade said:

    Carnyx said:

    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    I can't understand it either - even the most right wing and Brexiter types can't cope with the idea of him as PM. Including folk whom one would expect to knuckle their brows to a laird, however Anglicified at Eton. .

    Maybe the problem is with the English voters ...
    Boris seems to have the same effect on his detractors Homer Simpson had on Frank Grimes, as if his levity is somehow a personal affront.

    He has a considerable working class following though in England and Wales that isn't replicated in Scotland. Do they simply prefer dour personalities?
    THere may be a bit of that - I don't think that English commentators can quite understand how Mr Brown ex-PM and Ms Sturgeon come over better in Scotland than they can imagine. But it's clear there is something toxic in the Johnsonian pudding mix.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,928
    Carnyx said:

    I think the cause of Unionism would be advanced somewhat by separate Scottish Unionist parties like NI's UUP and DUP. I've thought for some time that what a lot of Scottish voters want is for Scotland to be fiercely defended within the Union, not necessarily to be cut adrift from it.

    The Tories in Scotland - the UNionist Party - historically declined from the moment they joined with the Conservatives in England in the mid-1950s. .

    B ut there may be other reasons ...
    Something the current Tory leadership appears at least somewhat to be getting. They haven't sent Douglas Ross to Coventry for defying Doris (my portmanteau word for Dom and Boris).
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 30,103
    edited July 31
    Carnyx said:

    I think the cause of Unionism would be advanced somewhat by separate Scottish Unionist parties like NI's UUP and DUP. I've thought for some time that what a lot of Scottish voters want is for Scotland to be fiercely defended within the Union, not necessarily to be cut adrift from it.

    The Tories in Scotland - the UNionist Party - historically declined from the moment they joined with the Conservatives in England in the mid-1950s. .

    B ut there may be other reasons ...
    It was in 1965, actually, after their decline had started.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023

    Carnyx said:

    I think the cause of Unionism would be advanced somewhat by separate Scottish Unionist parties like NI's UUP and DUP. I've thought for some time that what a lot of Scottish voters want is for Scotland to be fiercely defended within the Union, not necessarily to be cut adrift from it.

    The Tories in Scotland - the UNionist Party - historically declined from the moment they joined with the Conservatives in England in the mid-1950s. .

    B ut there may be other reasons ...
    Something the current Tory leadership appears at least somewhat to be getting. They haven't sent Douglas Ross to Coventry for defying Doris (my portmanteau word for Dom and Boris).
    One thing to pretend to be a bit detached from Messrs Cumming and Johnson and quite another to formally declare indy, of course.

    In the last leadership election (or the last but one - I can't remember if Mr Carlaw was opposed) Prof Tomkins actively espoused a split-off and got a flea in his ear, hence the election of Ms Davidson.

  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 34,309
    Joseph R. Biden Jr. has entered the final stage of his deliberations about choosing a running mate as he prepares to talk one-on-one with the finalists next week

    https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/31/us/politics/joseph-biden-vice-president.html?action=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 1,114
    Carnyx said:

    dodrade said:

    Carnyx said:

    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    I can't understand it either - even the most right wing and Brexiter types can't cope with the idea of him as PM. Including folk whom one would expect to knuckle their brows to a laird, however Anglicified at Eton. .

    Maybe the problem is with the English voters ...
    Boris seems to have the same effect on his detractors Homer Simpson had on Frank Grimes, as if his levity is somehow a personal affront.

    He has a considerable working class following though in England and Wales that isn't replicated in Scotland. Do they simply prefer dour personalities?
    THere may be a bit of that - I don't think that English commentators can quite understand how Mr Brown ex-PM and Ms Sturgeon come over better in Scotland than they can imagine. But it's clear there is something toxic in the Johnsonian pudding mix.
    Isn't support or lack thereof for EU verus Brexit the X factor that is separating Scots from English (and Welsh) voters?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 30,103
    kle4 said:

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    When we have people like HYUFD actively espousing colonial administration of Scotland, it's only to be expected that there is a reaction.

    Either you regard Scottish MPs as MPs, or you don't, in which case the Union is a lie and a phantasy.
    Isn't trying to resolve the Midlothian Argument by means other than cutting the Gordian knot via Scottish independence one key reason for establishing English parliament(s)? A Federal United Kingdom.
    I've been telling the Southron here for years to solve the West Lothian argument (Midlothian is where Gladstone gave his speeches ...). But they won't break up England to make a decent federation of the UK.
    A solution that carves up England like that is not a solution. It may well be it is not solvable, but if you change so something so radically in order to save it you can lose part of what you were attempting to save in the first place.
    I think the words of the great Irish parliamentarian and wit Sir Boyle Roche are apt here:

    ‘Mr Speaker we must be willing to give up not just a part, but if necessary the whole of our constitution, in order to preserve the remainder of it!’

    Good night.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 35,023
    LadyG said:

    Fuck me its 25C and nearly 10pm

    I'm not that kind of guy!
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 35,023
    edited July 31
    Carnyx said:

    I think the cause of Unionism would be advanced somewhat by separate Scottish Unionist parties like NI's UUP and DUP. I've thought for some time that what a lot of Scottish voters want is for Scotland to be fiercely defended within the Union, not necessarily to be cut adrift from it.

    The Tories in Scotland - the UNionist Party - historically declined from the moment they joined with the Conservatives in England in the mid-1950s. .

    B ut there may be other reasons ...
    1965.

    EDIT - seen that @ydoethur beat me!
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 5,809
    LadyG said:

    Fuck me its 25C and nearly 10pm

    Only 25 it’s 27 here humidity 80+ 25 minimum tomorrow 33 feels like 39
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023

    Carnyx said:

    dodrade said:

    Carnyx said:

    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    I can't understand it either - even the most right wing and Brexiter types can't cope with the idea of him as PM. Including folk whom one would expect to knuckle their brows to a laird, however Anglicified at Eton. .

    Maybe the problem is with the English voters ...
    Boris seems to have the same effect on his detractors Homer Simpson had on Frank Grimes, as if his levity is somehow a personal affront.

    He has a considerable working class following though in England and Wales that isn't replicated in Scotland. Do they simply prefer dour personalities?
    THere may be a bit of that - I don't think that English commentators can quite understand how Mr Brown ex-PM and Ms Sturgeon come over better in Scotland than they can imagine. But it's clear there is something toxic in the Johnsonian pudding mix.
    Isn't support or lack thereof for EU verus Brexit the X factor that is separating Scots from English (and Welsh) voters?
    Indeed, but whether that transfers over to views on Mr Johnson is perhaps a different matter. Could be right though I think the clown as PM isue is also imprtant.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 46,964
    LadyG said:

    Fuck me its 25C and nearly 10pm

    Lets hope it doesn't continue for very long....

    https://www.lbcnews.co.uk/uk-news/government-warned-that-police-will-need-army-support-to-fight-summer-of-serious/
  • SeaShantyIrish2SeaShantyIrish2 Posts: 1,114
    LadyG said:

    Fuck me its 25C and nearly 10pm

    Temp in north Seattle at 1.45pm 76F which is 24C. And it's way cooler than yesterday. Temp outside my cabin door (facing south) now is 85F / 29C

    Few in Seattle have A/C, which I'm guessing is situation for most in UK?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 34,309
    Karen Bass getting lot of attention in the NY Times piece on veep.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 3,198
    fox327 said:

    If the Conservatives want to save the Union, they should replace Boris.

    They don’t and they won’t.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 35,023

    LadyG said:

    Fuck me its 25C and nearly 10pm

    Temp in north Seattle at 1.45pm 76F which is 24C. And it's way cooler than yesterday. Temp outside my cabin door (facing south) now is 85F / 29C

    Few in Seattle have A/C, which I'm guessing is situation for most in UK?
    Got one of those upright cylindrical fans going in our living room.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 3,198

    Carnyx said:

    dodrade said:

    Carnyx said:

    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    I can't understand it either - even the most right wing and Brexiter types can't cope with the idea of him as PM. Including folk whom one would expect to knuckle their brows to a laird, however Anglicified at Eton. .

    Maybe the problem is with the English voters ...
    Boris seems to have the same effect on his detractors Homer Simpson had on Frank Grimes, as if his levity is somehow a personal affront.

    He has a considerable working class following though in England and Wales that isn't replicated in Scotland. Do they simply prefer dour personalities?
    THere may be a bit of that - I don't think that English commentators can quite understand how Mr Brown ex-PM and Ms Sturgeon come over better in Scotland than they can imagine. But it's clear there is something toxic in the Johnsonian pudding mix.
    Isn't support or lack thereof for EU verus Brexit the X factor that is separating Scots from English (and Welsh) voters?
    No.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 11,710

    LadyG said:

    Fuck me its 25C and nearly 10pm

    Temp in north Seattle at 1.45pm 76F which is 24C. And it's way cooler than yesterday. Temp outside my cabin door (facing south) now is 85F / 29C

    Few in Seattle have A/C, which I'm guessing is situation for most in UK?
    In our house this afternoon there must have been a 10degC difference between the south facing and the north facing rooms.
  • topherdawsontopherdawson Posts: 46


    "England doesn't need to be broken up into a collection of artificial cantons for any reason, least of all in an effort to satisfy Scotland that will most likely fail anyway.

    In principle there's no reason why a federal system comprising four states, in which one of them just happens to be much larger than the other three, cannot work. In practice, excuses are invented because it doesn't suit the two major parties at Westminster to split up the big train set. Therefore, the unresolved tensions within the structure of the United Kingdom will continue to build until it collapses."

    In principle there is, actually: a federation in which any one part can routinely over-rule any combination of the other parts by being much bigger is never going to work as a union of equals. See "The Breakdown of Nations" by Leopold Kohr. Hence Germany and the USA are successful federations because no one state can rule the roost, and Europe is a less successful federation because Germany is so strong. But I agree with the first sentence: the UK in its present form is probably not going to persist, so it's hardly worth breaking up England to make a federation work.

  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 11,928
    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    I think the cause of Unionism would be advanced somewhat by separate Scottish Unionist parties like NI's UUP and DUP. I've thought for some time that what a lot of Scottish voters want is for Scotland to be fiercely defended within the Union, not necessarily to be cut adrift from it.

    The Tories in Scotland - the UNionist Party - historically declined from the moment they joined with the Conservatives in England in the mid-1950s. .

    B ut there may be other reasons ...
    Something the current Tory leadership appears at least somewhat to be getting. They haven't sent Douglas Ross to Coventry for defying Doris (my portmanteau word for Dom and Boris).
    One thing to pretend to be a bit detached from Messrs Cumming and Johnson and quite another to formally declare indy, of course.

    In the last leadership election (or the last but one - I can't remember if Mr Carlaw was opposed) Prof Tomkins actively espoused a split-off and got a flea in his ear, hence the election of Ms Davidson.

    I thought it was Murdo Fraser who proposed it. It may yet happen, and would probably be a good thing.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023

    Carnyx said:

    Carnyx said:

    I think the cause of Unionism would be advanced somewhat by separate Scottish Unionist parties like NI's UUP and DUP. I've thought for some time that what a lot of Scottish voters want is for Scotland to be fiercely defended within the Union, not necessarily to be cut adrift from it.

    The Tories in Scotland - the UNionist Party - historically declined from the moment they joined with the Conservatives in England in the mid-1950s. .

    B ut there may be other reasons ...
    Something the current Tory leadership appears at least somewhat to be getting. They haven't sent Douglas Ross to Coventry for defying Doris (my portmanteau word for Dom and Boris).
    One thing to pretend to be a bit detached from Messrs Cumming and Johnson and quite another to formally declare indy, of course.

    In the last leadership election (or the last but one - I can't remember if Mr Carlaw was opposed) Prof Tomkins actively espoused a split-off and got a flea in his ear, hence the election of Ms Davidson.

    I thought it was Murdo Fraser who proposed it. It may yet happen, and would probably be a good thing.
    It was, yes - sorry - too much Aussie red for dinner.
  • StuartDicksonStuartDickson Posts: 3,198

    A system where England, Wales and Northern Ireland are essentially held hostage by secessionists in Scotland throwing a tantrum and threatening to plunge the other nations into a horrendous, disruptive, drawn out negotiation over secession every time a PM is elected that the secessionists don't like is not sustainable - yeah, you might dampen secessionism in Scotland in the short term, but it's going to engender bitterness in the 95% of the country that doesn't support secession.

    95%? Huh?

    https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/english-independence-polling-by-panelbase-1-6745542
  • TimTTimT Posts: 934

    LadyG said:

    Fuck me its 25C and nearly 10pm

    Lets hope it doesn't continue for very long....

    https://www.lbcnews.co.uk/uk-news/government-warned-that-police-will-need-army-support-to-fight-summer-of-serious/
    In Maryland 29 of July's 31 days have climbed into the 90s F. As today was one of the two exceptions, that was 29/30 days in the 90s. The other day was 88.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 16,902
    Carnyx said:

    Tres said:

    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    He's full of shite and the bumbling buffoon act is all too clearly an act.
    Yet why such a different perception south of the border? I can't understand it.
    Plenty of us South of the Border can see through the fat fuckwit too.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 6,023
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Tres said:

    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    He's full of shite and the bumbling buffoon act is all too clearly an act.
    Yet why such a different perception south of the border? I can't understand it.
    Plenty of us South of the Border can see through the fat fuckwit too.
    I know, but why the quantitative difference??

    I have an elderly family friend who goes on and on about how wonderful Brexit is, taking back control etc. But he cannot bear Johnson and regards him as a clown.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 4,000
    Foxy said:

    Carnyx said:

    Tres said:

    dodrade said:

    Is there any particular reason Boris is so disliked in Scotland? Is he just too English?

    He's full of shite and the bumbling buffoon act is all too clearly an act.
    Yet why such a different perception south of the border? I can't understand it.
    Plenty of us South of the Border can see through the fat fuckwit too.
    Plenty perhaps, but not enough, obvs.

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