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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Opinium’s Tory lead down from 26% at the start of Starmer’s LA

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  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    LadyG said:

    Scott_xP said:
    This is just getting increasingly bonkers.

    Sweden. Sweden. Sweden.
    It is. Just let those who must die, die.

    This way we will kill each other with poverty, violence, riots and destruction, which is far worse.

    Let us go to the pub and those who are scared can stay home.
    I'm getting seriously worried that those at the top in the Downing Street bunker, whether through extreme exhaustion or who knows what, are totally losing perspective.

    This is morphing before our eyes into a strategy to have no deaths whatsoever happening in the NHS, even if that means locking us in our homes until next summer. If they carry on in this vein then they will utterly destroy our economy in way we have never seen before and probably bring down democracy in the process.

    I bloody hope Starmer isn't going to just say he supports the government on the virus. Time to oppose.


  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Charles said:

    I want to know why we STILL don't have a functioning track and trace app. What the hell are they playing at?

    Because it’s not that important. And I don’t believe it works that well anywhere.

    It just sounds sexy and modern which is why politicians and the media talk about it
    Oh come off it Charles. It's certainly better than relying on pubs and restaurants to write down names and numbers on little pieces of paper.

    There is literally ready made off-the-shelf options available. The fact we don't have one just shows complete incompetence.
    If it's good enough for the Germans... .
  • Scott_xP said:

    Blimey.

    I humbly would suggest speculation on here would be a really bad idea from the legal point of view.

    Indeed, but a story about a scandal engulfing the Government is a handy distraction from BoZo's honours list...

    4D chess.

    OODA loop completely destroyed
    You are unbelievable

    Something as potentially serious as this and you show just how consumed you are over Boris.

    You need to get a life
  • LadyG said:

    In context, the idea this is a HUGE STORY is particularly and delightfully absurd.

    Prince Andrew is accused of underage rape, FFS, and yet no one gives a feck (which is sad). The world approaches ruin and war. The revelation an ex-minister did something criminally bad is. shall we say, Somewhat Overshadowed By Events.
    Alleged maybe
  • nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Going off population figures from those in FPTP countries:

    UK 67 million
    USA 328 million
    Canada 38 million
    India 1.353 billion
    Pakistan 212 million
    Nigeria 196 million
    The Philippines 107 million

    And many more countries but that is 2 and a quarter billion people living in those seven countries alone.

    I challenge you to find a single democratic method that comes close to that many billions.
  • Charles said:

    FPT - GOLFING TRUMPSKY

    Golf has a political connotations for American presidents best AVOIDED. These can be summed up as:
    > playing instead of working; and
    > upper-class (rather upper-middle-class) snobbery.

    IIRC Woodrow Wilson was first golfing president, followed by Harding who was a typical duffer-golfer fanatic. Harding's reputation for spending large amounts of time on the links enhanced neither his reputation nor that of the golf. One reason why Coolidge & Hoover avoided the game, as of course did FDR for other reasons.

    Harry Truman liked to play golf, but he was NOT in same league as Dwight Eisenhower. Indeed, Ike's passion for the game and time he spend on the links because political arguments against him. Of course he was re-elected anyway, but did NOT enhance his image.

    Kennedy, LBJ & Nixon lacked Ike's golf mania. Gerry Ford was fairly avid golfer, but kept it under wraps until AFTER he lost 1976 election.

    Wasn't until Bill Clinton that presidential golf again because a thing, as it was with Obama. By their time, sport had democratized somewhat, but still retained some tinge & taint of classes versus masses (as in "Caddyshack"). Which is why Trumpsky made such a deal about Obama's golfing.

    Golf - best avoided IF you are President of United States. Hardly bar sinister - but NOT helpful politically.

    This is the U.K. equivalent

    http://www.tntmagazine.com/news/uk/david-cameron-did-ride-rebekah-brookss-police-horse
    The pics that go along with story, showing Cameron & horse riding through snow are really great - would have done his image good on this side of Atlantic (and Pacific).

    Can remember thinking what a dork Mitt Romney was (not for first or last time) in 2016, when he downplayed fact that his wife had competed on USA Olympic team in some equestrian events. On grounds that it looked too elitist. Yeah, no doubt some Dems would have said so. BUT it also looked like she had competed in the Olympics for her country - a pretty GOOD thing methinks. So what if she was wearing English riding getup - should have just put her in a calico shirt & cowgirl hat, and be the Sweetheart of the Rodeo!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    Hold on. All over 50s to be locked at home?

    Johnson is over 50. Which of his homes is he planning to not leave for months as a shielding over 50?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 8,480
    edited August 2020
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Carnyx said:

    algarkirk said:

    Carnyx said:

    ukpaul said:

    Third?

    I posted this on the previous thread, a gov.scot official calculator of your age equivalent to check your covid risk. Worth a look, I think.

    https://bit.ly/3gmCLw1

    I did, thank you very much. Very interesting. (Unfortunately, but at least I can do something about it and am ...).
    For most people the greatest factor by far is age, which is hard to do much about. Age constituted over 98% of my score I am sorry to say.

    Exactly so. But if one is overweight, like me, then that is something to be done.
    Even if I lose weight I remain in the same risk category. I am still trying to do so, mind. But the social distancing from the fridge is not going as well as it should.

    Honestly, there are days when I think my family would be better off were I to die. My children would have an inheritance at least to see them through the next few years. What is the point of a half-life at best staring at sheep, hiding from everyone, with all your interests - artistic, cultural, creative - closed down or too risky and watching your children have their hopes and futures destroyed?

    I suppose Johnson can take some comfort from the fact that things this winter are going to be rotten everywhere in the West.

    His problems will really start if other countries begin to pull out of this.

    Are other countries in Europe closing down restaurants to open schools?
    It's important to remember that this will pass - as so many other similar occurrences have, leaving us unchanged a lot more than perhaps we feel it will at the moment.
    It’ll pass because in the end we all end up dead, some of us sooner than others.
    If all we have is this life, then if things improve within our lifetime and experience, then from one of the vantage points it will have passed.

    My grandfather, who was a surgeon and a kind of social documentarist, and had seen all sorts of terrible things, said he increasingly came to believe over his life that we don't only have this life. Against the grain of the times, my instinct is that he may have been right.

    If you take both scenarios combined, there's always some hope.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Going off population figures from those in FPTP countries:

    UK 67 million
    USA 328 million
    Canada 38 million
    India 1.353 billion
    Pakistan 212 million
    Nigeria 196 million
    The Philippines 107 million

    And many more countries but that is 2 and a quarter billion people living in those seven countries alone.

    I challenge you to find a single democratic method that comes close to that many billions.
    So it only applies if you use FPTP itself to calculate "the winner"?

    Pull the other one.
  • Over 50s locked at home, goodbye Tory vote lol
  • I had a few drinks
  • Hold on. All over 50s to be locked at home?

    Johnson is over 50. Which of his homes is he planning to not leave for months as a shielding over 50?

    I think we maybe need to take everything with a bit of salt but disaster planning is responsible at this difficult time
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328

    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Going off population figures from those in FPTP countries:

    UK 67 million
    USA 328 million
    Canada 38 million
    India 1.353 billion
    Pakistan 212 million
    Nigeria 196 million
    The Philippines 107 million

    And many more countries but that is 2 and a quarter billion people living in those seven countries alone.

    I challenge you to find a single democratic method that comes close to that many billions.
    Interesting - it seems Indonesia is a hybrid, with one chamber elected by PR, and the other by single non-transferable vote.
  • nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Going off population figures from those in FPTP countries:

    UK 67 million
    USA 328 million
    Canada 38 million
    India 1.353 billion
    Pakistan 212 million
    Nigeria 196 million
    The Philippines 107 million

    And many more countries but that is 2 and a quarter billion people living in those seven countries alone.

    I challenge you to find a single democratic method that comes close to that many billions.
    So it only applies if you use FPTP itself to calculate "the winner"?

    Pull the other one.
    Eh?

    Feel free to add all PR countries together and show it cancoming close to the billions in FPTP if you like. Be my guest but please like me show your working, or please acknowledge I was right?
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Going off population figures from those in FPTP countries:

    UK 67 million
    USA 328 million
    Canada 38 million
    India 1.353 billion
    Pakistan 212 million
    Nigeria 196 million
    The Philippines 107 million

    And many more countries but that is 2 and a quarter billion people living in those seven countries alone.

    I challenge you to find a single democratic method that comes close to that many billions.
    So it only applies if you use FPTP itself to calculate "the winner"?

    Pull the other one.
    Eh?

    Feel free to add all PR countries together and show it cancoming close to the billions in FPTP if you like. Be my guest but please like me show your working, or please acknowledge I was right?
    Like I said, pull the other one.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Hold on. All over 50s to be locked at home?

    Johnson is over 50. Which of his homes is he planning to not leave for months as a shielding over 50?

    10 Downing street?
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328

    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Going off population figures from those in FPTP countries:

    UK 67 million
    USA 328 million
    Canada 38 million
    India 1.353 billion
    Pakistan 212 million
    Nigeria 196 million
    The Philippines 107 million

    And many more countries but that is 2 and a quarter billion people living in those seven countries alone.

    I challenge you to find a single democratic method that comes close to that many billions.

    You can add Malaysia to that list, so another 31 million
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    RobD said:

    Hold on. All over 50s to be locked at home?

    Johnson is over 50. Which of his homes is he planning to not leave for months as a shielding over 50?

    10 Downing street?
    If they are going to lock down us over-50s, then as a lesbian painter of picturesque salamanders I am gonna make damn sure they lock me down in a top class brothel with a really good aquarium
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    Cyclefree said:

    Before I go, a response to @MattW - see https://twitter.com/mattwardman/status/1289542313312575489?s=21.

    Bilberries are also known as blueberries.

    Partial shade, acid soil ie ericaceous, keep well-watered - especially in summer - but not water-logged and prune to keep the bush in shape. Don’t crowd as they can suffer from mildew if they don’t get air to the plant.

    And don’t forget to pick the fruits before the birds steal them!

    Um, with respect, that is wrong. As MattW's tweet makes clear blueberries (big cultivated N American bushes) are different from bilberries aka whins which are a low growing subshrub which grows among heather in the UK uplands. To answer his question, the fruits are so small and sparse and fiddly (though delicious) that I can't imagine anyone would try to cultivate them.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    edited August 2020
    Watching Apocalypse Now (The Official Movie of the Year?) on BBC2 for the first time since reading "Heart of Darkness".
    Really is an exquisite adaptation of the novel.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    @Philip_Thompson you're using total population for your argument simply because it's the only way you can twist the facts to fit.

    The fact is that FPTP is not common. More proportional systems to elect legislatures are used in 2/3rds of the world's countries. FPTP is only used in 1/3rd of the world's countries.

    If this was a FPTP election, FPTP would only win 1/3 of the seats in said legislature.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Presumably India makes a big difference. Add in the US, Canada, etc you must be over 1.5bn hence “billions”
    Whilst that point is technically correct, it's incredibly misleading. Only 1/3rd of countries use FPTP according to Wikipedia.

    "Best in world" is also an opinion, not a fact.
    By definition, though, if you believe in FPTP the plurality wins.

    And if you believe in the wisdom of the ordinary voter then they choose the best option available

    Therefore if a plurality of people in the world use FPTP then it must be the best option available (China is excluded as they don’t have a free say)
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Presumably India makes a big difference. Add in the US, Canada, etc you must be over 1.5bn hence “billions”
    Whilst that point is technically correct, it's incredibly misleading. Only 1/3rd of countries use FPTP according to Wikipedia.

    "Best in world" is also an opinion, not a fact.
    By definition, though, if you believe in FPTP the plurality wins.

    And if you believe in the wisdom of the ordinary voter then they choose the best option available

    Therefore if a plurality of people in the world use FPTP then it must be the best option available (China is excluded as they don’t have a free say)
    They haven't chosen anything.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328

    Charles said:

    FPT - GOLFING TRUMPSKY

    Golf has a political connotations for American presidents best AVOIDED. These can be summed up as:
    > playing instead of working; and
    > upper-class (rather upper-middle-class) snobbery.

    IIRC Woodrow Wilson was first golfing president, followed by Harding who was a typical duffer-golfer fanatic. Harding's reputation for spending large amounts of time on the links enhanced neither his reputation nor that of the golf. One reason why Coolidge & Hoover avoided the game, as of course did FDR for other reasons.

    Harry Truman liked to play golf, but he was NOT in same league as Dwight Eisenhower. Indeed, Ike's passion for the game and time he spend on the links because political arguments against him. Of course he was re-elected anyway, but did NOT enhance his image.

    Kennedy, LBJ & Nixon lacked Ike's golf mania. Gerry Ford was fairly avid golfer, but kept it under wraps until AFTER he lost 1976 election.

    Wasn't until Bill Clinton that presidential golf again because a thing, as it was with Obama. By their time, sport had democratized somewhat, but still retained some tinge & taint of classes versus masses (as in "Caddyshack"). Which is why Trumpsky made such a deal about Obama's golfing.

    Golf - best avoided IF you are President of United States. Hardly bar sinister - but NOT helpful politically.

    This is the U.K. equivalent

    http://www.tntmagazine.com/news/uk/david-cameron-did-ride-rebekah-brookss-police-horse
    The pics that go along with story, showing Cameron & horse riding through snow are really great - would have done his image good on this side of Atlantic (and Pacific).

    Can remember thinking what a dork Mitt Romney was (not for first or last time) in 2016, when he downplayed fact that his wife had competed on USA Olympic team in some equestrian events. On grounds that it looked too elitist. Yeah, no doubt some Dems would have said so. BUT it also looked like she had competed in the Olympics for her country - a pretty GOOD thing methinks. So what if she was wearing English riding getup - should have just put her in a calico shirt & cowgirl hat, and be the Sweetheart of the Rodeo!
    Ann Romney was on the US Olympic Dressage team. The 'intellectual' horse riding discipline, as my daughter calls it.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835

    @Philip_Thompson you're using total population for your argument simply because it's the only way you can twist the facts to fit.

    The fact is that FPTP is not common. More proportional systems to elect legislatures are used in 2/3rds of the world's countries. FPTP is only used in 1/3rd of the world's countries.

    If this was a FPTP election, FPTP would only win 1/3 of the seats in said legislature.

    But would win by PR!
    Did anyone tell Alannis Morrissette?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    LadyG said:

    In context, the idea this is a HUGE STORY is particularly and delightfully absurd.

    Prince Andrew is accused of underage rape, FFS, and yet no one gives a feck (which is sad). The world approaches ruin and war. The revelation an ex-minister did something criminally bad is. shall we say, Somewhat Overshadowed By Events.
    Although the Andrew news is just recycling of the same old allegations by Virginia Giuffre
  • TimT said:

    Charles said:

    FPT - GOLFING TRUMPSKY

    Golf has a political connotations for American presidents best AVOIDED. These can be summed up as:
    > playing instead of working; and
    > upper-class (rather upper-middle-class) snobbery.

    IIRC Woodrow Wilson was first golfing president, followed by Harding who was a typical duffer-golfer fanatic. Harding's reputation for spending large amounts of time on the links enhanced neither his reputation nor that of the golf. One reason why Coolidge & Hoover avoided the game, as of course did FDR for other reasons.

    Harry Truman liked to play golf, but he was NOT in same league as Dwight Eisenhower. Indeed, Ike's passion for the game and time he spend on the links because political arguments against him. Of course he was re-elected anyway, but did NOT enhance his image.

    Kennedy, LBJ & Nixon lacked Ike's golf mania. Gerry Ford was fairly avid golfer, but kept it under wraps until AFTER he lost 1976 election.

    Wasn't until Bill Clinton that presidential golf again because a thing, as it was with Obama. By their time, sport had democratized somewhat, but still retained some tinge & taint of classes versus masses (as in "Caddyshack"). Which is why Trumpsky made such a deal about Obama's golfing.

    Golf - best avoided IF you are President of United States. Hardly bar sinister - but NOT helpful politically.

    This is the U.K. equivalent

    http://www.tntmagazine.com/news/uk/david-cameron-did-ride-rebekah-brookss-police-horse
    The pics that go along with story, showing Cameron & horse riding through snow are really great - would have done his image good on this side of Atlantic (and Pacific).

    Can remember thinking what a dork Mitt Romney was (not for first or last time) in 2016, when he downplayed fact that his wife had competed on USA Olympic team in some equestrian events. On grounds that it looked too elitist. Yeah, no doubt some Dems would have said so. BUT it also looked like she had competed in the Olympics for her country - a pretty GOOD thing methinks. So what if she was wearing English riding getup - should have just put her in a calico shirt & cowgirl hat, and be the Sweetheart of the Rodeo!
    Ann Romney was on the US Olympic Dressage team. The 'intellectual' horse riding discipline, as my daughter calls it.
    And more power to Mrs Romney AND your darling daughter!

    My point is, going for the gold for your country - even if you don't make it - MORE than cancels out the hoity-toity factor.
  • nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Going off population figures from those in FPTP countries:

    UK 67 million
    USA 328 million
    Canada 38 million
    India 1.353 billion
    Pakistan 212 million
    Nigeria 196 million
    The Philippines 107 million

    And many more countries but that is 2 and a quarter billion people living in those seven countries alone.

    I challenge you to find a single democratic method that comes close to that many billions.
    So it only applies if you use FPTP itself to calculate "the winner"?

    Pull the other one.
    Eh?

    Feel free to add all PR countries together and show it cancoming close to the billions in FPTP if you like. Be my guest but please like me show your working, or please acknowledge I was right?
    Like I said, pull the other one.
    I said billions are under FPTP, more people than any other.
    You asked me to show my working
    I did show working
    And now this is all you have to say?

    You pull the other one. I was right, I demonstrated it mathematically. Are you not big enough to acknowledge that?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    I want to know why we STILL don't have a functioning track and trace app. What the hell are they playing at?

    Because it’s not that important. And I don’t believe it works that well anywhere.

    It just sounds sexy and modern which is why politicians and the media talk about it
    Oh come off it Charles. It's certainly better than relying on pubs and restaurants to write down names and numbers on little pieces of paper.

    There is literally ready made off-the-shelf options available. The fact we don't have one just shows complete incompetence.
    Really? The last data I saw showed that Apple / Google (?) couldn’t make their one work properly.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 32,728
    Remember, the Government is run by a Superforecaster...
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Going off population figures from those in FPTP countries:

    UK 67 million
    USA 328 million
    Canada 38 million
    India 1.353 billion
    Pakistan 212 million
    Nigeria 196 million
    The Philippines 107 million

    And many more countries but that is 2 and a quarter billion people living in those seven countries alone.

    I challenge you to find a single democratic method that comes close to that many billions.
    So it only applies if you use FPTP itself to calculate "the winner"?

    Pull the other one.
    Eh?

    Feel free to add all PR countries together and show it cancoming close to the billions in FPTP if you like. Be my guest but please like me show your working, or please acknowledge I was right?
    Like I said, pull the other one.
    I said billions are under FPTP, more people than any other.
    You asked me to show my working
    I did show working
    And now this is all you have to say?

    You pull the other one. I was right, I demonstrated it mathematically. Are you not big enough to acknowledge that?
    You said that FPTP was "the best in the world and is mainstream" and tried to back up that statement with a ridiculously misleading comment on how "no other system is used by more people".

    That may be technically true, although you haven't proven it, a huge majority of countries use other, more proportional systems.

    Ergo your point is rubbish.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    I'm now listening to Hanson's Mmmbop and drinking Tanqueray 10. I recommend this as a sovereign cure for, well, anything
  • @Philip_Thompson you're using total population for your argument simply because it's the only way you can twist the facts to fit.

    The fact is that FPTP is not common. More proportional systems to elect legislatures are used in 2/3rds of the world's countries. FPTP is only used in 1/3rd of the world's countries.

    If this was a FPTP election, FPTP would only win 1/3 of the seats in said legislature.

    Not all countries are equal. Why would you consider Luxembourg the same as India? Why would you consider the Netherlands the same as the USA?

    Not all countries are democracies. China is a one party dictatorship not a democracy so is neither PR not FPTP.

    So both your claims are nonsense. Counting the EU as 27x the whole of India is bordering on white supremacist nonsense.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Scott_xP said:

    Happy to take a punt with you on the party of the winner of the seat.

    You would have to specify which faction of the SNP you think will get the nod.

    It's impressive that they didn't think Angus could beat Joanna, so they tried a stitch-up. Now they don't think he can beat Marco, so they need to unwind it...
    Marco and Angus come from the same faction of the SNP.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    @Philip_Thompson you're using total population for your argument simply because it's the only way you can twist the facts to fit.

    The fact is that FPTP is not common. More proportional systems to elect legislatures are used in 2/3rds of the world's countries. FPTP is only used in 1/3rd of the world's countries.

    If this was a FPTP election, FPTP would only win 1/3 of the seats in said legislature.

    Not all countries are equal. Why would you consider Luxembourg the same as India? Why would you consider the Netherlands the same as the USA?

    Not all countries are democracies. China is a one party dictatorship not a democracy so is neither PR not FPTP.

    So both your claims are nonsense. Counting the EU as 27x the whole of India is bordering on white supremacist nonsense.
    What a ridiculously stupid thing to say.
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328

    TimT said:

    Charles said:

    FPT - GOLFING TRUMPSKY

    Golf has a political connotations for American presidents best AVOIDED. These can be summed up as:
    > playing instead of working; and
    > upper-class (rather upper-middle-class) snobbery.

    IIRC Woodrow Wilson was first golfing president, followed by Harding who was a typical duffer-golfer fanatic. Harding's reputation for spending large amounts of time on the links enhanced neither his reputation nor that of the golf. One reason why Coolidge & Hoover avoided the game, as of course did FDR for other reasons.

    Harry Truman liked to play golf, but he was NOT in same league as Dwight Eisenhower. Indeed, Ike's passion for the game and time he spend on the links because political arguments against him. Of course he was re-elected anyway, but did NOT enhance his image.

    Kennedy, LBJ & Nixon lacked Ike's golf mania. Gerry Ford was fairly avid golfer, but kept it under wraps until AFTER he lost 1976 election.

    Wasn't until Bill Clinton that presidential golf again because a thing, as it was with Obama. By their time, sport had democratized somewhat, but still retained some tinge & taint of classes versus masses (as in "Caddyshack"). Which is why Trumpsky made such a deal about Obama's golfing.

    Golf - best avoided IF you are President of United States. Hardly bar sinister - but NOT helpful politically.

    This is the U.K. equivalent

    http://www.tntmagazine.com/news/uk/david-cameron-did-ride-rebekah-brookss-police-horse
    The pics that go along with story, showing Cameron & horse riding through snow are really great - would have done his image good on this side of Atlantic (and Pacific).

    Can remember thinking what a dork Mitt Romney was (not for first or last time) in 2016, when he downplayed fact that his wife had competed on USA Olympic team in some equestrian events. On grounds that it looked too elitist. Yeah, no doubt some Dems would have said so. BUT it also looked like she had competed in the Olympics for her country - a pretty GOOD thing methinks. So what if she was wearing English riding getup - should have just put her in a calico shirt & cowgirl hat, and be the Sweetheart of the Rodeo!
    Ann Romney was on the US Olympic Dressage team. The 'intellectual' horse riding discipline, as my daughter calls it.
    And more power to Mrs Romney AND your darling daughter!

    My point is, going for the gold for your country - even if you don't make it - MORE than cancels out the hoity-toity factor.
    Indeed, no-one gets to represent their country - particularly not their hyper-competitive country - at the Olympics without incredible dedication, sacrifice and work ethic.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    MMMMMMMBOP!
  • Re: current sex scandals, and re: His Foul Lowness aka Randy Andy, seems the guy who REALLY had a bad end-of-the-week was BILL CLINTON.

    Bill was looking better (in PR sense) than he has in years at the John Lewis memorial, as one of the Three Presidents along with W and Barack, in stark contrast to the Twit-in-Chief who Was Not There.

    THEN a federal judge opened the Pandora's box that is court filings connected with La Maxwell's previous legal hurdles. Among which is testimony alleging Bill Clinton was a guest at Epstein's Fantasy Island. Which he's denied. And so far no definite proof either way. But it's early days.
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 2,721
    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.
  • @Philip_Thompson you're using total population for your argument simply because it's the only way you can twist the facts to fit.

    The fact is that FPTP is not common. More proportional systems to elect legislatures are used in 2/3rds of the world's countries. FPTP is only used in 1/3rd of the world's countries.

    If this was a FPTP election, FPTP would only win 1/3 of the seats in said legislature.

    Not all countries are equal. Why would you consider Luxembourg the same as India? Why would you consider the Netherlands the same as the USA?

    Not all countries are democracies. China is a one party dictatorship not a democracy so is neither PR not FPTP.

    So both your claims are nonsense. Counting the EU as 27x the whole of India is bordering on white supremacist nonsense.
    What a ridiculously stupid thing to say.
    I have demonstrated billions of people in FPTP.

    Can you demonstrate billions of people in PR countries?

    Or do only white Europeans matter? Do you disregard billions globally because they don't count and aren't relevant?
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221

    Re: current sex scandals, and re: His Foul Lowness aka Randy Andy, seems the guy who REALLY had a bad end-of-the-week was BILL CLINTON.

    Bill was looking better (in PR sense) than he has in years at the John Lewis memorial, as one of the Three Presidents along with W and Barack, in stark contrast to the Twit-in-Chief who Was Not There.

    THEN a federal judge opened the Pandora's box that is court filings connected with La Maxwell's previous legal hurdles. Among which is testimony alleging Bill Clinton was a guest at Epstein's Fantasy Island. Which he's denied. And so far no definite proof either way. But it's early days.

    Does anyone seriously doubt that Bill "Oval Office intern" Clinton did NOT indulge at the behest of Epstein?

    Of course he did.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    You can't question FPTP, because India use it, and that therefore makes you a white supremacist. Apparently.
  • PR is used by more countries than FPTP, FPTP is a minority use case
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    @Philip_Thompson you're using total population for your argument simply because it's the only way you can twist the facts to fit.

    The fact is that FPTP is not common. More proportional systems to elect legislatures are used in 2/3rds of the world's countries. FPTP is only used in 1/3rd of the world's countries.

    If this was a FPTP election, FPTP would only win 1/3 of the seats in said legislature.

    Not all countries are equal. Why would you consider Luxembourg the same as India? Why would you consider the Netherlands the same as the USA?

    Not all countries are democracies. China is a one party dictatorship not a democracy so is neither PR not FPTP.

    So both your claims are nonsense. Counting the EU as 27x the whole of India is bordering on white supremacist nonsense.
    What a ridiculously stupid thing to say.
    I have demonstrated billions of people in FPTP.

    Can you demonstrate billions of people in PR countries?

    Or do only white Europeans matter? Do you disregard billions globally because they don't count and aren't relevant?
    Again, what a ridiculously stupid thing to say.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    Wait. If the over 50s are forced to shield.
    What does that mean for my child starting school?
    Can I force him to move out?
    That and my 48 yo partner to do all the errands.
  • CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    Easy to justify: Because every constituency gets their most popular choice. If any constituency preferred anyone else they would have got their preference.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,743
    Lol.

    https://twitter.com/MhairiHunter/status/1289659557887619073?s=20

    Just need Alex Salmond to throw his hat in the ring..

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Presumably India makes a big difference. Add in the US, Canada, etc you must be over 1.5bn hence “billions”
    Whilst that point is technically correct, it's incredibly misleading. Only 1/3rd of countries use FPTP according to Wikipedia.

    "Best in world" is also an opinion, not a fact.
    By definition, though, if you believe in FPTP the plurality wins.

    And if you believe in the wisdom of the ordinary voter then they choose the best option available

    Therefore if a plurality of people in the world use FPTP then it must be the best option available (China is excluded as they don’t have a free say)
    They haven't chosen anything.
    If they live in a democracy and they haven’t changed it then, by default, they have chosen it...

    For fundamentally, where democracy evolved organically or was transplanted from an organic system (eg India) they use FPTP.

    Where it was designed and imposed by politicians they use PR

    PR gives party politicians more power. I wonder why they chose it?
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279
    edited August 2020

    PR is used by more countries than FPTP, FPTP is a minority use case

    It's interesting how centre-left governments in Canada don't seem to be interested in replacing FPTP.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TimT said:

    Charles said:

    FPT - GOLFING TRUMPSKY

    Golf has a political connotations for American presidents best AVOIDED. These can be summed up as:
    > playing instead of working; and
    > upper-class (rather upper-middle-class) snobbery.

    IIRC Woodrow Wilson was first golfing president, followed by Harding who was a typical duffer-golfer fanatic. Harding's reputation for spending large amounts of time on the links enhanced neither his reputation nor that of the golf. One reason why Coolidge & Hoover avoided the game, as of course did FDR for other reasons.

    Harry Truman liked to play golf, but he was NOT in same league as Dwight Eisenhower. Indeed, Ike's passion for the game and time he spend on the links because political arguments against him. Of course he was re-elected anyway, but did NOT enhance his image.

    Kennedy, LBJ & Nixon lacked Ike's golf mania. Gerry Ford was fairly avid golfer, but kept it under wraps until AFTER he lost 1976 election.

    Wasn't until Bill Clinton that presidential golf again because a thing, as it was with Obama. By their time, sport had democratized somewhat, but still retained some tinge & taint of classes versus masses (as in "Caddyshack"). Which is why Trumpsky made such a deal about Obama's golfing.

    Golf - best avoided IF you are President of United States. Hardly bar sinister - but NOT helpful politically.

    This is the U.K. equivalent

    http://www.tntmagazine.com/news/uk/david-cameron-did-ride-rebekah-brookss-police-horse
    The pics that go along with story, showing Cameron & horse riding through snow are really great - would have done his image good on this side of Atlantic (and Pacific).

    Can remember thinking what a dork Mitt Romney was (not for first or last time) in 2016, when he downplayed fact that his wife had competed on USA Olympic team in some equestrian events. On grounds that it looked too elitist. Yeah, no doubt some Dems would have said so. BUT it also looked like she had competed in the Olympics for her country - a pretty GOOD thing methinks. So what if she was wearing English riding getup - should have just put her in a calico shirt & cowgirl hat, and be the Sweetheart of the Rodeo!
    Ann Romney was on the US Olympic Dressage team. The 'intellectual' horse riding discipline, as my daughter calls it.
    Horse ballet 😃
  • CatManCatMan Posts: 2,721

    CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    Easy to justify: Because every constituency gets their most popular choice. If any constituency preferred anyone else they would have got their preference.
    But they don't! A lot of people don't vote for the party they support under FPTP because *they know* that the voting system makes voting for the Lib Dems, or the Greens, or whoever, a wasted vote, so they vote for the Tories or Labour based on who they hate the least.

    They should be voting for the party they actually support. FPTP makes them not do that.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Presumably India makes a big difference. Add in the US, Canada, etc you must be over 1.5bn hence “billions”
    Whilst that point is technically correct, it's incredibly misleading. Only 1/3rd of countries use FPTP according to Wikipedia.

    "Best in world" is also an opinion, not a fact.
    By definition, though, if you believe in FPTP the plurality wins.

    And if you believe in the wisdom of the ordinary voter then they choose the best option available

    Therefore if a plurality of people in the world use FPTP then it must be the best option available (China is excluded as they don’t have a free say)
    They haven't chosen anything.
    If they live in a democracy and they haven’t changed it then, by default, they have chosen it...

    For fundamentally, where democracy evolved organically or was transplanted from an organic system (eg India) they use FPTP.

    Where it was designed and imposed by politicians they use PR

    PR gives party politicians more power. I wonder why they chose it?
    These countries use FPTP because of the British Empire. That's the only reason. It is a product of colonialism.
  • @Philip_Thompson you're using total population for your argument simply because it's the only way you can twist the facts to fit.

    The fact is that FPTP is not common. More proportional systems to elect legislatures are used in 2/3rds of the world's countries. FPTP is only used in 1/3rd of the world's countries.

    If this was a FPTP election, FPTP would only win 1/3 of the seats in said legislature.

    Not all countries are equal. Why would you consider Luxembourg the same as India? Why would you consider the Netherlands the same as the USA?

    Not all countries are democracies. China is a one party dictatorship not a democracy so is neither PR not FPTP.

    So both your claims are nonsense. Counting the EU as 27x the whole of India is bordering on white supremacist nonsense.
    What a ridiculously stupid thing to say.
    I have demonstrated billions of people in FPTP.

    Can you demonstrate billions of people in PR countries?

    Or do only white Europeans matter? Do you disregard billions globally because they don't count and aren't relevant?
    Again, what a ridiculously stupid thing to say.
    You're not big enough to acknowledge I am right then.

    I made the claim: "Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people."

    You asked me if I was making up facts and asked me to show my working. I did.

    Was my working wrong? Were my facts wrong? Or are you not big enough to admit someone else ever has a point even if you don't like it?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Going off population figures from those in FPTP countries:

    UK 67 million
    USA 328 million
    Canada 38 million
    India 1.353 billion
    Pakistan 212 million
    Nigeria 196 million
    The Philippines 107 million

    And many more countries but that is 2 and a quarter billion people living in those seven countries alone.

    I challenge you to find a single democratic method that comes close to that many billions.
    So it only applies if you use FPTP itself to calculate "the winner"?

    Pull the other one.
    Eh?

    Feel free to add all PR countries together and show it cancoming close to the billions in FPTP if you like. Be my guest but please like me show your working, or please acknowledge I was right?
    Like I said, pull the other one.
    I said billions are under FPTP, more people than any other.
    You asked me to show my working
    I did show working
    And now this is all you have to say?

    You pull the other one. I was right, I demonstrated it mathematically. Are you not big enough to acknowledge that?
    You said that FPTP was "the best in the world and is mainstream" and tried to back up that statement with a ridiculously misleading comment on how "no other system is used by more people".

    That may be technically true, although you haven't proven it, a huge majority of countries use other, more proportional systems.

    Ergo your point is rubbish.
    You’re sounding dangerously like a Romney

    “Countries are people too”
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    Charles said:

    TimT said:

    Charles said:

    FPT - GOLFING TRUMPSKY

    Golf has a political connotations for American presidents best AVOIDED. These can be summed up as:
    > playing instead of working; and
    > upper-class (rather upper-middle-class) snobbery.

    IIRC Woodrow Wilson was first golfing president, followed by Harding who was a typical duffer-golfer fanatic. Harding's reputation for spending large amounts of time on the links enhanced neither his reputation nor that of the golf. One reason why Coolidge & Hoover avoided the game, as of course did FDR for other reasons.

    Harry Truman liked to play golf, but he was NOT in same league as Dwight Eisenhower. Indeed, Ike's passion for the game and time he spend on the links because political arguments against him. Of course he was re-elected anyway, but did NOT enhance his image.

    Kennedy, LBJ & Nixon lacked Ike's golf mania. Gerry Ford was fairly avid golfer, but kept it under wraps until AFTER he lost 1976 election.

    Wasn't until Bill Clinton that presidential golf again because a thing, as it was with Obama. By their time, sport had democratized somewhat, but still retained some tinge & taint of classes versus masses (as in "Caddyshack"). Which is why Trumpsky made such a deal about Obama's golfing.

    Golf - best avoided IF you are President of United States. Hardly bar sinister - but NOT helpful politically.

    This is the U.K. equivalent

    http://www.tntmagazine.com/news/uk/david-cameron-did-ride-rebekah-brookss-police-horse
    The pics that go along with story, showing Cameron & horse riding through snow are really great - would have done his image good on this side of Atlantic (and Pacific).

    Can remember thinking what a dork Mitt Romney was (not for first or last time) in 2016, when he downplayed fact that his wife had competed on USA Olympic team in some equestrian events. On grounds that it looked too elitist. Yeah, no doubt some Dems would have said so. BUT it also looked like she had competed in the Olympics for her country - a pretty GOOD thing methinks. So what if she was wearing English riding getup - should have just put her in a calico shirt & cowgirl hat, and be the Sweetheart of the Rodeo!
    Ann Romney was on the US Olympic Dressage team. The 'intellectual' horse riding discipline, as my daughter calls it.
    Horse ballet 😃
    Hardly. All the moves demonstrated have their origins in the horse's manoeuverability on the battlefield.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    @Philip_Thompson you're using total population for your argument simply because it's the only way you can twist the facts to fit.

    The fact is that FPTP is not common. More proportional systems to elect legislatures are used in 2/3rds of the world's countries. FPTP is only used in 1/3rd of the world's countries.

    If this was a FPTP election, FPTP would only win 1/3 of the seats in said legislature.

    Not all countries are equal. Why would you consider Luxembourg the same as India? Why would you consider the Netherlands the same as the USA?

    Not all countries are democracies. China is a one party dictatorship not a democracy so is neither PR not FPTP.

    So both your claims are nonsense. Counting the EU as 27x the whole of India is bordering on white supremacist nonsense.
    What a ridiculously stupid thing to say.
    I have demonstrated billions of people in FPTP.

    Can you demonstrate billions of people in PR countries?

    Or do only white Europeans matter? Do you disregard billions globally because they don't count and aren't relevant?
    Again, what a ridiculously stupid thing to say.
    You're not big enough to acknowledge I am right then.

    I made the claim: "Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people."

    You asked me if I was making up facts and asked me to show my working. I did.

    Was my working wrong? Were my facts wrong? Or are you not big enough to admit someone else ever has a point even if you don't like it?
    You're the one who's had to bring race into the matter because you didn't like me proving you wrong.

    The joke's on you mate.
  • LadyGLadyG Posts: 2,221
    Mexico overtook the UK in total deaths today.

    46,688 over 46,193

    We are now in fourth, behind them, Brazil and the USA. India is also very likely to overtake us. And perhaps Iran and South Africa if there are bad "2nd waves".

    We will ljkely end up in the lower half of the top ten. Oddly similar to our global GDP ranking.








  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788

    CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    Easy to justify: Because every constituency gets their most popular choice. If any constituency preferred anyone else they would have got their preference.
    But then a system such as AMS/MMP should be right up your street. Every constituency gets their choice of MP, but the parliament is topped up to reflect the national vote. I'm dead set against removing the constituency link, but it's easy enough to make it fairer.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 26,279
    edited August 2020
    LadyG said:

    Mexico overtook the UK in total deaths today.

    46,688 over 46,193

    We are now in fourth, behind them, Brazil and the USA. India is also very likely to overtake us. And perhaps Iran and South Africa if there are bad "2nd waves".

    We will ljkely end up in the lower half of the top ten. Oddly similar to our global GDP ranking.








    China would almost certainly be above us if the figures were reliable. Perhaps also Iran.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    Easy to justify: Because every constituency gets their most popular choice. If any constituency preferred anyone else they would have got their preference.
    But they don't! A lot of people don't vote for the party they support under FPTP because *they know* that the voting system makes voting for the Lib Dems, or the Greens, or whoever, a wasted vote, so they vote for the Tories or Labour based on who they hate the least.

    They should be voting for the party they actually support. FPTP makes them not do that.
    There's no point arguing with him. He's a FPTP zealot and refuses to recognise any possible criticisms of the system. It's a waste of time.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    Because it is local communities voting for a representative not a country voting for a legislature.

    I’d be interested to know how many MPs got >50% of the vote cast in their constituency. I suspect a surprisingly large number
  • @Philip_Thompson you're using total population for your argument simply because it's the only way you can twist the facts to fit.

    The fact is that FPTP is not common. More proportional systems to elect legislatures are used in 2/3rds of the world's countries. FPTP is only used in 1/3rd of the world's countries.

    If this was a FPTP election, FPTP would only win 1/3 of the seats in said legislature.

    Not all countries are equal. Why would you consider Luxembourg the same as India? Why would you consider the Netherlands the same as the USA?

    Not all countries are democracies. China is a one party dictatorship not a democracy so is neither PR not FPTP.

    So both your claims are nonsense. Counting the EU as 27x the whole of India is bordering on white supremacist nonsense.
    What a ridiculously stupid thing to say.
    I have demonstrated billions of people in FPTP.

    Can you demonstrate billions of people in PR countries?

    Or do only white Europeans matter? Do you disregard billions globally because they don't count and aren't relevant?
    Again, what a ridiculously stupid thing to say.
    You're not big enough to acknowledge I am right then.

    I made the claim: "Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people."

    You asked me if I was making up facts and asked me to show my working. I did.

    Was my working wrong? Were my facts wrong? Or are you not big enough to admit someone else ever has a point even if you don't like it?
    You're the one who's had to bring race into the matter because you didn't like me proving you wrong.

    The joke's on you mate.
    How did you prove me wrong?

    The claim was and I repeat: Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.

    So unless you're claiming Indians and Pakistanis etc are not real people and only Europeans are real people, please show your working to show more people use anything other than FPTP?
  • LadyG said:

    Re: current sex scandals, and re: His Foul Lowness aka Randy Andy, seems the guy who REALLY had a bad end-of-the-week was BILL CLINTON.

    Bill was looking better (in PR sense) than he has in years at the John Lewis memorial, as one of the Three Presidents along with W and Barack, in stark contrast to the Twit-in-Chief who Was Not There.

    THEN a federal judge opened the Pandora's box that is court filings connected with La Maxwell's previous legal hurdles. Among which is testimony alleging Bill Clinton was a guest at Epstein's Fantasy Island. Which he's denied. And so far no definite proof either way. But it's early days.

    Does anyone seriously doubt that Bill "Oval Office intern" Clinton did NOT indulge at the behest of Epstein?

    Of course he did.
    You do have a point. Certainly we are NOT talking about JImmy Carter, who told the American People (via "Playboy") that, “I’ve looked on a lot of women with lust. I’ve committed adultery in my heart many times.”

    Which may not have been news to Rosalynn (or Ms Lillian) but DID shock the American public - because it was Jimmy Carter who said it!
  • RH1992RH1992 Posts: 788
    LadyG said:

    Mexico overtook the UK in total deaths today.

    46,688 over 46,193

    We are now in fourth, behind them, Brazil and the USA. India is also very likely to overtake us. And perhaps Iran and South Africa if there are bad "2nd waves".

    We will ljkely end up in the lower half of the top ten. Oddly similar to our global GDP ranking.

    I suspect Iran's death toll is only a fraction of the true story there, same with Russia.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Charles said:

    CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    Because it is local communities voting for a representative not a country voting for a legislature.
    Yes - that's the entire point. That's the main reason why FPTP doesn't work.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,629
    CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    And pr an even worse system. I don't want a voting system where politicians get to decide what I voted for after my vote is cast. At least with our current system I know what I am voting for. Its bad enough that currently they drop things let alone its decided after all votes are cast.

    You want pr then we should all get the opportunity to withdraw our vote once we are told what it is we voted for and if that means what ever backroom deals were don fail then tough
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Pagan2 said:

    CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    And pr an even worse system. I don't want a voting system where politicians get to decide what I voted for after my vote is cast. At least with our current system I know what I am voting for. Its bad enough that currently they drop things let alone its decided after all votes are cast.

    You want pr then we should all get the opportunity to withdraw our vote once we are told what it is we voted for and if that means what ever backroom deals were don fail then tough
    PR is not a "system". PR is a whole series of voting systems.

    You clearly don't understand what it is.
  • CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    Easy to justify: Because every constituency gets their most popular choice. If any constituency preferred anyone else they would have got their preference.
    But they don't! A lot of people don't vote for the party they support under FPTP because *they know* that the voting system makes voting for the Lib Dems, or the Greens, or whoever, a wasted vote, so they vote for the Tories or Labour based on who they hate the least.

    They should be voting for the party they actually support. FPTP makes them not do that.
    I have seen no evidence that lots of people support the Lib Dems, Greens etc but don't vote for them. But either way they can weigh up their decisions and vote however they want to. Their choice.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    @Philip_Thompson you're using total population for your argument simply because it's the only way you can twist the facts to fit.

    The fact is that FPTP is not common. More proportional systems to elect legislatures are used in 2/3rds of the world's countries. FPTP is only used in 1/3rd of the world's countries.

    If this was a FPTP election, FPTP would only win 1/3 of the seats in said legislature.

    Not all countries are equal. Why would you consider Luxembourg the same as India? Why would you consider the Netherlands the same as the USA?

    Not all countries are democracies. China is a one party dictatorship not a democracy so is neither PR not FPTP.

    So both your claims are nonsense. Counting the EU as 27x the whole of India is bordering on white supremacist nonsense.
    What a ridiculously stupid thing to say.
    I have demonstrated billions of people in FPTP.

    Can you demonstrate billions of people in PR countries?

    Or do only white Europeans matter? Do you disregard billions globally because they don't count and aren't relevant?
    Again, what a ridiculously stupid thing to say.
    You're not big enough to acknowledge I am right then.

    I made the claim: "Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people."

    You asked me if I was making up facts and asked me to show my working. I did.

    Was my working wrong? Were my facts wrong? Or are you not big enough to admit someone else ever has a point even if you don't like it?
    You're the one who's had to bring race into the matter because you didn't like me proving you wrong.

    The joke's on you mate.
    How did you prove me wrong?

    The claim was and I repeat: Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.

    So unless you're claiming Indians and Pakistanis etc are not real people and only Europeans are real people, please show your working to show more people use anything other than FPTP?
    You're making yourself look even more ridiculous. I advise you to just stop.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,629
    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    Easy to justify: Because every constituency gets their most popular choice. If any constituency preferred anyone else they would have got their preference.
    But they don't! A lot of people don't vote for the party they support under FPTP because *they know* that the voting system makes voting for the Lib Dems, or the Greens, or whoever, a wasted vote, so they vote for the Tories or Labour based on who they hate the least.

    They should be voting for the party they actually support. FPTP makes them not do that.
    People don't vote for the lib dems because no one actually knows what they stand for.

    No one votes for the greens because they are watermelons
  • Andy_JS said:

    PR is used by more countries than FPTP, FPTP is a minority use case

    It's interesting how centre-left governments in Canada don't seem to be interested in replacing FPTP.
    Trudeu has let us all down, as Blair did on this issue too
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,080
    edited August 2020
    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Before I go, a response to @MattW - see https://twitter.com/mattwardman/status/1289542313312575489?s=21.

    Bilberries are also known as blueberries.

    Partial shade, acid soil ie ericaceous, keep well-watered - especially in summer - but not water-logged and prune to keep the bush in shape. Don’t crowd as they can suffer from mildew if they don’t get air to the plant.

    And don’t forget to pick the fruits before the birds steal them!

    Um, with respect, that is wrong. As MattW's tweet makes clear blueberries (big cultivated N American bushes) are different from bilberries aka whins which are a low growing subshrub which grows among heather in the UK uplands. To answer his question, the fruits are so small and sparse and fiddly (though delicious) that I can't imagine anyone would try to cultivate them.
    I'm going to try :-).

    And there seem to be a few places where you can buy the bush, though I think it probably needs say three or four bushes to get enough for jam or tarts.

    Since I'll be exercising on my own for a bit, I might go and see if I can find any wild bilberries as we are just into the season and there has been a lot of rain here - though I will need to phone up a couple of people in their 70s and 80s to find the spot where we used to go.

    In the meantime I have ordered one of these, which I hope will help. The issue is whether it brings in huge amounts of leaves and how to separate them.

    https://twitter.com/socialinfo2u/status/1288354602975461376
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    Easy to justify: Because every constituency gets their most popular choice. If any constituency preferred anyone else they would have got their preference.
    But they don't! A lot of people don't vote for the party they support under FPTP because *they know* that the voting system makes voting for the Lib Dems, or the Greens, or whoever, a wasted vote, so they vote for the Tories or Labour based on who they hate the least.

    They should be voting for the party they actually support. FPTP makes them not do that.
    I have seen no evidence that lots of people support the Lib Dems, Greens etc but don't vote for them. But either way they can weigh up their decisions and vote however they want to. Their choice.
    Even if you saw it - you'd ignore it.

    I voted Labour in 2019 because I felt I had to due to the voting system. I would have preferred to vote for the Liberal Democrats but if I had voted for them my vote would have been wasted.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911
    LadyG said:

    Re: coping with Covid, think we are getting a taste of what WWII and other wars were (and in some cases still are) like, when "civilians" are in the firing line, both directly (as in Blitz) and indirectly witnessing the suffering & worse of family, friends, coworkers & entire community.

    What we appear to lack, is any semblance of leadership capable of uniting, inspiring, encouraging, persuading - things that came (as it seems) naturally to Winston S. Churchill and Franklin D. Roosevelt.

    I said the exact same thing in a family Whatsapp group today.

    Finally, I now feel exactly what it must have been like for people going into a global war. This IS that bad. Even if one is personally doing OK, very few of us are more than a couple of connections away from someone seriously ill, or dying, or going bankrupt, or suddenly unemployed, or facing mental health issues, and so on. The universality of the pain is brutal. And winter is coming.
    Even those of us that are doing comparatively well know that we are going to get whacked hard by some aspect of this crisis sooner or later. Day to day life is fine so far but I feel like there is a black cloud constantly hovering above me.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,956
    edited August 2020
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    Andy_JS said:

    PR is used by more countries than FPTP, FPTP is a minority use case

    It's interesting how centre-left governments in Canada don't seem to be interested in replacing FPTP.
    Canada doesn't have a centre-left government.
  • nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Going off population figures from those in FPTP countries:

    UK 67 million
    USA 328 million
    Canada 38 million
    India 1.353 billion
    Pakistan 212 million
    Nigeria 196 million
    The Philippines 107 million

    And many more countries but that is 2 and a quarter billion people living in those seven countries alone.

    I challenge you to find a single democratic method that comes close to that many billions.
    So it only applies if you use FPTP itself to calculate "the winner"?

    Pull the other one.
    Eh?

    Feel free to add all PR countries together and show it cancoming close to the billions in FPTP if you like. Be my guest but please like me show your working, or please acknowledge I was right?
    Like I said, pull the other one.
    I said billions are under FPTP, more people than any other.
    You asked me to show my working
    I did show working
    And now this is all you have to say?

    You pull the other one. I was right, I demonstrated it mathematically. Are you not big enough to acknowledge that?
    You said that FPTP was "the best in the world and is mainstream" and tried to back up that statement with a ridiculously misleading comment on how "no other system is used by more people".

    That may be technically true, although you haven't proven it, a huge majority of countries use other, more proportional systems.

    Ergo your point is rubbish.
    "Technically true" - is that a backhanded way of saying "what you said is true"? What I said is either true or false if it is true then I am right in what I said.

    Countries are not people and countries are not equal. I see no non racist reason to only count Europeans as people. The only reasonable metric to use, as I used originally, is people.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Going off population figures from those in FPTP countries:

    UK 67 million
    USA 328 million
    Canada 38 million
    India 1.353 billion
    Pakistan 212 million
    Nigeria 196 million
    The Philippines 107 million

    And many more countries but that is 2 and a quarter billion people living in those seven countries alone.

    I challenge you to find a single democratic method that comes close to that many billions.
    So it only applies if you use FPTP itself to calculate "the winner"?

    Pull the other one.
    Eh?

    Feel free to add all PR countries together and show it cancoming close to the billions in FPTP if you like. Be my guest but please like me show your working, or please acknowledge I was right?
    Like I said, pull the other one.
    I said billions are under FPTP, more people than any other.
    You asked me to show my working
    I did show working
    And now this is all you have to say?

    You pull the other one. I was right, I demonstrated it mathematically. Are you not big enough to acknowledge that?
    You said that FPTP was "the best in the world and is mainstream" and tried to back up that statement with a ridiculously misleading comment on how "no other system is used by more people".

    That may be technically true, although you haven't proven it, a huge majority of countries use other, more proportional systems.

    Ergo your point is rubbish.
    "Technically true" - is that a backhanded way of saying "what you said is true"? What I said is either true or false if it is true then I am right in what I said.

    Countries are not people and countries are not equal. I see no non racist reason to only count Europeans as people. The only reasonable metric to use, as I used originally, is people.
    Lol.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,629

    Pagan2 said:

    CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    And pr an even worse system. I don't want a voting system where politicians get to decide what I voted for after my vote is cast. At least with our current system I know what I am voting for. Its bad enough that currently they drop things let alone its decided after all votes are cast.

    You want pr then we should all get the opportunity to withdraw our vote once we are told what it is we voted for and if that means what ever backroom deals were don fail then tough
    PR is not a "system". PR is a whole series of voting systems.

    You clearly don't understand what it is.
    I inderstand exactly what it is, all pr sustems lead to coalition where politicians meet in smoky rooms and trade off policies to get to a manifesto that precisely no one voted for. Much like the 2010 coalition in this country. IF I had known what they would collar together as a manifesto I would have voted against them not for one of the partyies. Yet they could count my vote towards their mandate
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    And pr an even worse system. I don't want a voting system where politicians get to decide what I voted for after my vote is cast. At least with our current system I know what I am voting for. Its bad enough that currently they drop things let alone its decided after all votes are cast.

    You want pr then we should all get the opportunity to withdraw our vote once we are told what it is we voted for and if that means what ever backroom deals were don fail then tough
    PR is not a "system". PR is a whole series of voting systems.

    You clearly don't understand what it is.
    I inderstand exactly what it is, all pr sustems lead to coalition where politicians meet in smoky rooms and trade off policies to get to a manifesto that precisely no one voted for. Much like the 2010 coalition in this country. IF I had known what they would collar together as a manifesto I would have voted against them not for one of the partyies. Yet they could count my vote towards their mandate
    Clearly you don't then, as that is not the case.
  • alteregoalterego Posts: 1,100

    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    Easy to justify: Because every constituency gets their most popular choice. If any constituency preferred anyone else they would have got their preference.
    But they don't! A lot of people don't vote for the party they support under FPTP because *they know* that the voting system makes voting for the Lib Dems, or the Greens, or whoever, a wasted vote, so they vote for the Tories or Labour based on who they hate the least.

    They should be voting for the party they actually support. FPTP makes them not do that.
    I have seen no evidence that lots of people support the Lib Dems, Greens etc but don't vote for them. But either way they can weigh up their decisions and vote however they want to. Their choice.
    Even if you saw it - you'd ignore it.

    I voted Labour in 2019 because I felt I had to due to the voting system. I would have preferred to vote for the Liberal Democrats but if I had voted for them my vote would have been wasted.
    and it wasn't?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited August 2020

    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Going off population figures from those in FPTP countries:

    UK 67 million
    USA 328 million
    Canada 38 million
    India 1.353 billion
    Pakistan 212 million
    Nigeria 196 million
    The Philippines 107 million

    And many more countries but that is 2 and a quarter billion people living in those seven countries alone.

    I challenge you to find a single democratic method that comes close to that many billions.
    So it only applies if you use FPTP itself to calculate "the winner"?

    Pull the other one.
    Eh?

    Feel free to add all PR countries together and show it cancoming close to the billions in FPTP if you like. Be my guest but please like me show your working, or please acknowledge I was right?
    Like I said, pull the other one.
    I said billions are under FPTP, more people than any other.
    You asked me to show my working
    I did show working
    And now this is all you have to say?

    You pull the other one. I was right, I demonstrated it mathematically. Are you not big enough to acknowledge that?
    You said that FPTP was "the best in the world and is mainstream" and tried to back up that statement with a ridiculously misleading comment on how "no other system is used by more people".

    That may be technically true, although you haven't proven it, a huge majority of countries use other, more proportional systems.

    Ergo your point is rubbish.
    "Technically true" - is that a backhanded way of saying "what you said is true"? What I said is either true or false if it is true then I am right in what I said.

    Countries are not people and countries are not equal. I see no non racist reason to only count Europeans as people. The only reasonable metric to use, as I used originally, is people.
    Lol.
    The original claim: Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.

    Was that claim in your eyes True or False?

    If false, please show your working.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,749
    malcolmg said:
    After the pressures and issues that made him decline to stand in 2016, that’s immensely courageous of him. He would get my vote (again).
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    alterego said:

    CatMan said:

    CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    Easy to justify: Because every constituency gets their most popular choice. If any constituency preferred anyone else they would have got their preference.
    But they don't! A lot of people don't vote for the party they support under FPTP because *they know* that the voting system makes voting for the Lib Dems, or the Greens, or whoever, a wasted vote, so they vote for the Tories or Labour based on who they hate the least.

    They should be voting for the party they actually support. FPTP makes them not do that.
    I have seen no evidence that lots of people support the Lib Dems, Greens etc but don't vote for them. But either way they can weigh up their decisions and vote however they want to. Their choice.
    Even if you saw it - you'd ignore it.

    I voted Labour in 2019 because I felt I had to due to the voting system. I would have preferred to vote for the Liberal Democrats but if I had voted for them my vote would have been wasted.
    and it wasn't?
    My vote helped stop the Tories or the Brexit Party win Newcastle upon Tyne North.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,629
    On the topic of the header I am intensely relaxed. Labours lead is irrelevant in polls for the simple reason Labour will never be elected and never have been in recent memory unless the country feels financially well. The chances of the country feeling financially well in 2024 is 0% so labour have no hope in hell of being the next government
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,743
    I love the smell of a lord, a WM MP & another WM MP in the morning. It smells like...victory.

    https://twitter.com/TheScotsman/status/1289578829384564738?s=20
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Going off population figures from those in FPTP countries:

    UK 67 million
    USA 328 million
    Canada 38 million
    India 1.353 billion
    Pakistan 212 million
    Nigeria 196 million
    The Philippines 107 million

    And many more countries but that is 2 and a quarter billion people living in those seven countries alone.

    I challenge you to find a single democratic method that comes close to that many billions.
    So it only applies if you use FPTP itself to calculate "the winner"?

    Pull the other one.
    Eh?

    Feel free to add all PR countries together and show it cancoming close to the billions in FPTP if you like. Be my guest but please like me show your working, or please acknowledge I was right?
    Like I said, pull the other one.
    I said billions are under FPTP, more people than any other.
    You asked me to show my working
    I did show working
    And now this is all you have to say?

    You pull the other one. I was right, I demonstrated it mathematically. Are you not big enough to acknowledge that?
    You said that FPTP was "the best in the world and is mainstream" and tried to back up that statement with a ridiculously misleading comment on how "no other system is used by more people".

    That may be technically true, although you haven't proven it, a huge majority of countries use other, more proportional systems.

    Ergo your point is rubbish.
    "Technically true" - is that a backhanded way of saying "what you said is true"? What I said is either true or false if it is true then I am right in what I said.

    Countries are not people and countries are not equal. I see no non racist reason to only count Europeans as people. The only reasonable metric to use, as I used originally, is people.
    Lol.
    The original claim: Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.

    Was that claim in your eyes True or False?

    If false, please show your working.
    Clearly false - 2/3 of the world use other systems.
  • Andy_JS said:

    PR is used by more countries than FPTP, FPTP is a minority use case

    It's interesting how centre-left governments in Canada don't seem to be interested in replacing FPTP.
    Few governments are interested in rocking the electoral boat. More likely to want to subvert proportional voting if it already exists, or replace it with FPTP if they can.

    Voting public tends to be flighty on this issue. IF you catch them at a period of general unrest & distrust, or after some problem with election machinery, voters may well approve sweeping reforms including PR. On the other hand, until a system becomes established after several election cycles, they can be equally inclined to chuck it and return to FPTP.

    Which is precisely what happened in Pierce Co, Washington several years ago, which adopted instant runoff voting (essentially AV or STV) for county offices via voter initiative, then a few years later, after a 2nd vote, returned to the old system.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 8,629

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    And pr an even worse system. I don't want a voting system where politicians get to decide what I voted for after my vote is cast. At least with our current system I know what I am voting for. Its bad enough that currently they drop things let alone its decided after all votes are cast.

    You want pr then we should all get the opportunity to withdraw our vote once we are told what it is we voted for and if that means what ever backroom deals were don fail then tough
    PR is not a "system". PR is a whole series of voting systems.

    You clearly don't understand what it is.
    I inderstand exactly what it is, all pr sustems lead to coalition where politicians meet in smoky rooms and trade off policies to get to a manifesto that precisely no one voted for. Much like the 2010 coalition in this country. IF I had known what they would collar together as a manifesto I would have voted against them not for one of the partyies. Yet they could count my vote towards their mandate
    Clearly you don't then, as that is not the case.
    Name a country that has pr that doesn't result in coalitions as the norm then if thas not the case. Oh dear wrong again
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Before I go, a response to @MattW - see https://twitter.com/mattwardman/status/1289542313312575489?s=21.

    Bilberries are also known as blueberries.

    Partial shade, acid soil ie ericaceous, keep well-watered - especially in summer - but not water-logged and prune to keep the bush in shape. Don’t crowd as they can suffer from mildew if they don’t get air to the plant.

    And don’t forget to pick the fruits before the birds steal them!

    Um, with respect, that is wrong. As MattW's tweet makes clear blueberries (big cultivated N American bushes) are different from bilberries aka whins which are a low growing subshrub which grows among heather in the UK uplands. To answer his question, the fruits are so small and sparse and fiddly (though delicious) that I can't imagine anyone would try to cultivate them.
    The common European bilberry is also known as the whortleberry (which sounds like a lovely name) - and sometimes, probably wrongly, as you say, as the European blueberry. It is related to the North American larger blueberry, I understand. It likes ericaceous soil - like heathers. And is prone to mildew. How easy or not it is to cultivate the fruits I don’t know as I’ve never done it. But I assumed that @MattW wanted to know how to grow the plant.

    Good luck to him.

    Do you like gardening too?

  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Andy_JS said:

    PR is used by more countries than FPTP, FPTP is a minority use case

    It's interesting how centre-left governments in Canada don't seem to be interested in replacing FPTP.
    Trudeu has let us all down, as Blair did on this issue too
    As I've told you before, Labour has no interest in removing the voting system that keeps them in the duopoly. With PR the left may do better but Labour would splinter into loads of parties and dilute their power. Look at what's happened to traditional left parties all across Europe.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Presumably India makes a big difference. Add in the US, Canada, etc you must be over 1.5bn hence “billions”
    Whilst that point is technically correct, it's incredibly misleading. Only 1/3rd of countries use FPTP according to Wikipedia.

    "Best in world" is also an opinion, not a fact.
    By definition, though, if you believe in FPTP the plurality wins.

    And if you believe in the wisdom of the ordinary voter then they choose the best option available

    Therefore if a plurality of people in the world use FPTP then it must be the best option available (China is excluded as they don’t have a free say)
    They haven't chosen anything.
    If they live in a democracy and they haven’t changed it then, by default, they have chosen it...

    For fundamentally, where democracy evolved organically or was transplanted from an organic system (eg India) they use FPTP.

    Where it was designed and imposed by politicians they use PR

    PR gives party politicians more power. I wonder why they chose it?
    These countries use FPTP because of the British Empire. That's the only reason. It is a product of colonialism.
    They’ve chosen not to change it in the 50+ years since independence.

    Personally I’m willing to treat them as mature societies able to make their own decisions about which electoral system they wish to use. I guess you believe they aren’t capable of that?
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    MattW said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Before I go, a response to @MattW - see https://twitter.com/mattwardman/status/1289542313312575489?s=21.

    Bilberries are also known as blueberries.

    Partial shade, acid soil ie ericaceous, keep well-watered - especially in summer - but not water-logged and prune to keep the bush in shape. Don’t crowd as they can suffer from mildew if they don’t get air to the plant.

    And don’t forget to pick the fruits before the birds steal them!

    Um, with respect, that is wrong. As MattW's tweet makes clear blueberries (big cultivated N American bushes) are different from bilberries aka whins which are a low growing subshrub which grows among heather in the UK uplands. To answer his question, the fruits are so small and sparse and fiddly (though delicious) that I can't imagine anyone would try to cultivate them.
    I'm going to try :-).

    And there seem to be a few places where you can buy the bush, though I think it probably needs say three or four bushes to get enough for jam or tarts.

    Since I'll be exercising on my own for a bit, I might go and see if I can find any wild bilberries as we are just into the season and there has been a lot of rain here - though I will need to phone up a couple of people in their 70s and 80s to find the spot where we used to go.

    In the meantime I have ordered one of these, which I hope will help. The issue is whether it brings in huge amounts of leaves and how to separate them.

    https://twitter.com/socialinfo2u/status/1288354602975461376
    OK good luck!

    Here's rather a good article about them

    https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2008/apr/06/gardens50
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,080
    edited August 2020
    TimT said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Before I go, a response to @MattW - see https://twitter.com/mattwardman/status/1289542313312575489?s=21.

    Bilberries are also known as blueberries.

    Partial shade, acid soil ie ericaceous, keep well-watered - especially in summer - but not water-logged and prune to keep the bush in shape. Don’t crowd as they can suffer from mildew if they don’t get air to the plant.

    And don’t forget to pick the fruits before the birds steal them!

    Explains my lack of success - clay soil, full sun, no attention.
    If it's any consolation - I had one for my birthday a couple of years ago and killed it within 4 months.

    I'm hoping the secret weapon is the drip watering system shown connected up to a water butt, which has such a low pressure (1m head -ish) that even in the dry it will be able to water a done different things including these for about a week or more before using up the whole 200l of water in the container.

    Having done the homework, 2 or more bushes is also important.

    Tomorrow I sally forth like Sir Gawain to do battle with the more or less controlled Himalayan Giant blackberry in the back garden for the first of this year's blackberries. I missed the raspberries this year due to far too many lockdown complications, but I'm definitely having blackberry vinegar for my pancakes for the next 9 months,
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    CatMan said:

    It doesn't matter how many countries uses it, FPTP is a terrible system. Yeah I'm not a Tory supporter, but I thought it was stupid when Blair got a 66 seat majority on 35% of the vote.

    How can you justify a party barely getting a *third* of the popular vote yet getting a massive majority? It makes a mockery of democracy IMHO.

    And pr an even worse system. I don't want a voting system where politicians get to decide what I voted for after my vote is cast. At least with our current system I know what I am voting for. Its bad enough that currently they drop things let alone its decided after all votes are cast.

    You want pr then we should all get the opportunity to withdraw our vote once we are told what it is we voted for and if that means what ever backroom deals were don fail then tough
    PR is not a "system". PR is a whole series of voting systems.

    You clearly don't understand what it is.
    I inderstand exactly what it is, all pr sustems lead to coalition where politicians meet in smoky rooms and trade off policies to get to a manifesto that precisely no one voted for. Much like the 2010 coalition in this country. IF I had known what they would collar together as a manifesto I would have voted against them not for one of the partyies. Yet they could count my vote towards their mandate
    Clearly you don't then, as that is not the case.
    Name a country that has pr that doesn't result in coalitions as the norm then if thas not the case. Oh dear wrong again
    You didn't say it was the norm. You said it ALWAYS led to coalition governments.

    Regardless we have coalition governments under FPTP, they are just opaque and hidden from public view.

    The Labour Party is a coalition between the far left and centrists. The Conservative party is a coalition of all kinds of political persuasions on the right.

    Manifestos don't mean anything at all.
  • nichomar said:

    Cyclefree said:

    In ACTUAL national polling:

    23 May, 2019: Conservatives achieve 8.8% under Theresa May

    12 December, 2019: Conservatives achieve 43.6% under Boris Johnson.

    An increase of 34.8%.


    That's the bar.

    Tsk. Comparing a Euro election with a General Election.

    What’s the increase when you compare the 2017 and 2019 General Elections?
    The increase was a net change of 100 seats in the majority. From a minus 20 majority to a majority of 80.
    Only because of the corrupt electoral system in the UK
    Our electoral system is the best in the world and mainstream. Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.
    Are you just making up facts again? Please show your working.
    Going off population figures from those in FPTP countries:

    UK 67 million
    USA 328 million
    Canada 38 million
    India 1.353 billion
    Pakistan 212 million
    Nigeria 196 million
    The Philippines 107 million

    And many more countries but that is 2 and a quarter billion people living in those seven countries alone.

    I challenge you to find a single democratic method that comes close to that many billions.
    So it only applies if you use FPTP itself to calculate "the winner"?

    Pull the other one.
    Eh?

    Feel free to add all PR countries together and show it cancoming close to the billions in FPTP if you like. Be my guest but please like me show your working, or please acknowledge I was right?
    Like I said, pull the other one.
    I said billions are under FPTP, more people than any other.
    You asked me to show my working
    I did show working
    And now this is all you have to say?

    You pull the other one. I was right, I demonstrated it mathematically. Are you not big enough to acknowledge that?
    You said that FPTP was "the best in the world and is mainstream" and tried to back up that statement with a ridiculously misleading comment on how "no other system is used by more people".

    That may be technically true, although you haven't proven it, a huge majority of countries use other, more proportional systems.

    Ergo your point is rubbish.
    "Technically true" - is that a backhanded way of saying "what you said is true"? What I said is either true or false if it is true then I am right in what I said.

    Countries are not people and countries are not equal. I see no non racist reason to only count Europeans as people. The only reasonable metric to use, as I used originally, is people.
    Lol.
    The original claim: Billions of people vote worldwide using our system because it works. There is no electoral system used by more people.

    Was that claim in your eyes True or False?

    If false, please show your working.
    Clearly false - 2/3 of the world use other systems.
    Please show your working to demonstrate how two thirds of the people of this world use other systems?

    And which electoral system are do you think is used by more people? Or are you counting PR and one party state dictatorships like China as the same thing?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TimT said:

    Charles said:

    TimT said:

    Charles said:

    FPT - GOLFING TRUMPSKY

    Golf has a political connotations for American presidents best AVOIDED. These can be summed up as:
    > playing instead of working; and
    > upper-class (rather upper-middle-class) snobbery.

    IIRC Woodrow Wilson was first golfing president, followed by Harding who was a typical duffer-golfer fanatic. Harding's reputation for spending large amounts of time on the links enhanced neither his reputation nor that of the golf. One reason why Coolidge & Hoover avoided the game, as of course did FDR for other reasons.

    Harry Truman liked to play golf, but he was NOT in same league as Dwight Eisenhower. Indeed, Ike's passion for the game and time he spend on the links because political arguments against him. Of course he was re-elected anyway, but did NOT enhance his image.

    Kennedy, LBJ & Nixon lacked Ike's golf mania. Gerry Ford was fairly avid golfer, but kept it under wraps until AFTER he lost 1976 election.

    Wasn't until Bill Clinton that presidential golf again because a thing, as it was with Obama. By their time, sport had democratized somewhat, but still retained some tinge & taint of classes versus masses (as in "Caddyshack"). Which is why Trumpsky made such a deal about Obama's golfing.

    Golf - best avoided IF you are President of United States. Hardly bar sinister - but NOT helpful politically.

    This is the U.K. equivalent

    http://www.tntmagazine.com/news/uk/david-cameron-did-ride-rebekah-brookss-police-horse
    The pics that go along with story, showing Cameron & horse riding through snow are really great - would have done his image good on this side of Atlantic (and Pacific).

    Can remember thinking what a dork Mitt Romney was (not for first or last time) in 2016, when he downplayed fact that his wife had competed on USA Olympic team in some equestrian events. On grounds that it looked too elitist. Yeah, no doubt some Dems would have said so. BUT it also looked like she had competed in the Olympics for her country - a pretty GOOD thing methinks. So what if she was wearing English riding getup - should have just put her in a calico shirt & cowgirl hat, and be the Sweetheart of the Rodeo!
    Ann Romney was on the US Olympic Dressage team. The 'intellectual' horse riding discipline, as my daughter calls it.
    Horse ballet 😃
    Hardly. All the moves demonstrated have their origins in the horse's manoeuverability on the battlefield.
    Ballet originated in the European courts where everything had a martial aspect
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