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  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,964

    What a Special Relationship.

    Obama says exactly what Cameron would have wanted him to say.

    Cameron must have real persuasive powers.

    Except with the Eurocrats.....where he has shown he has no persuasive powers whatsoever.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    Scott_P said:

    @MrHarryCole: Here we go. Leave.EU: "Obama doesn’t have authority to deny us a deal, as he will be long gone before any such proposals are on the table."

    But aren't we going to be doing dozens of brilliant trade deals as soon as we vote for Brexit?

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Just as it was obvious to all but the most deluded that Cameron was always going to advocate staying in the EU, so it is obvious that giving the UK beneficial trade deals post-Brexit is not going to be a priority for the US or any other major trading nation. This is realpolitik.

    Of course it will be in the US's interests. It just isn't in their interest to admit it right now. That is realpolitik.

    Not really - does the US need more access to the UK market than it has now enough to give the UK more access to the US market than it has now? No, it has bigger fish to fry. And the same applies to all other major trading nations. They'll do a deal if we give them what they want whilst not giving us what we want, but otherwise they won't.

    We are the fifth largest fish in the world. Since the US isn't seeking to make a deal with itself, that makes us the fourth largest fish in the world for them to catch.

    We are also very aligned culturally and economically. A deal will be valuable and easy to make.

    It just doesn't make sense to say so.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    JackW said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    Total Bullshit Comment 5,193 .... and that's just this thread !!

    Your opinion is not always right, you know.

  • SeanT said:

    AndyJS said:

    SeanT said:

    Barnesian said:

    SeanT said:

    C'*nt Obama

    But REMAIN was always going to win. This will just make their victory slightly more emphatic, and much more envenomed. The fall-out after this "betrayal" could destroy the Tory party as we know it.
    .

    I love it. Two wins.
    Indeed. I think these are promising days for Labour. Ominously.

    You seriously think Obama's intervention will make any difference to the result?
    No, I think Obama's intervention, clearly scripted by Mr D Cameron, is going to add to the bitterness and sense of betrayal in sceptic camps, which are mostly Tory.

    You could say, as many on here would: Project Whinge is at it again, let the frothers flail away as they go down to defeat, hahaha. But the fact is, LEAVE constitutes half Tory MPS, and most Tory activists and voters. It is most of the party.

    The Tory LEAVERS are going to be furious when they lose and they will want revenge, and given their greater strength they will do very serious damage. I can't see a way for the REMAIN minority in the Tory party to avoid this civil war, a war they will find hard to win.

    Which is all jolly good news for Labour.
    I doubt leave constitutes most tory voters
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    The US is capable of multitasking, there is no "queue" or "priority". All that matters is how easily and readily a deal can be agreed. Realistically we are not going to struggle to make an agreement and once an agreement is signed it goes to Congress for approval, where it will be ratified.

    It's really not that simple, though. Getting Congress to ratify anything at the moment is far from easy. And of course there are priorities and political trade-offs.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
    Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    I do love this argument that Cameron getting Obama to agree with him is demeaning to Cameron. Bravo!

    He's trashing his brand - just in a different way.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    I can't see a way for the REMAIN minority in the Tory party to avoid this civil war, a war they will find hard to win.

    Which is all jolly good news for Labour.

    Except the remainers currently hold all the positions of power. If they purge the "losers', what are they going to do? Defecting to UKIP will have been shown to be futile.
    Cameron has a working majority of 18. You seriously think it will be that difficult to find 10 Tory MPs who are willing to vote against the Government at every opportunity after the way he has behaved?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    The US is capable of multitasking, there is no "queue" or "priority". All that matters is how easily and readily a deal can be agreed. Realistically we are not going to struggle to make an agreement and once an agreement is signed it goes to Congress for approval, where it will be ratified.

    It's really not that simple, though. Getting Congress to ratify anything at the moment is far from easy. And of course there are priorities and political trade-offs.
    Congress still has a soft spot for the UK, the special relationship does work both ways. If anything reaching a deal with the UK (which will be relatively uncontroversial) will if anything provide cover to allow Senators to reject other alternative deals. "I'm not anti-trade, I'm against this bad deal but I'll approve good ones like I have with the UK".
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,048
    In will infuriate the Atlantacist, 'Vote Leave' dreamy hawkish Tory outers. To Grassroots, anti-establishment, concerned about the TTIP outers, he couldn't really have said anything more ideal.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
    Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
    Winning the Referendum, but destroying the Tory party will be a bitter legacy to live with.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    chestnut said:

    JackW said:

    SeanT said:

    Barnesian said:

    SeanT said:

    C'*nt Obama

    But REMAIN was always going to win. This will just make their victory slightly more emphatic, and much more envenomed. The fall-out after this "betrayal" could destroy the Tory party as we know it.
    .

    I love it. Two wins.
    Indeed. I think these are promising days for Labour. Ominously.

    Delusional .... unlike the British electorate when it comes to the prospect of PM Jezza.
    A great many ordinary folk may not like Corbyn very much, but Cameron will be plumbing the same depths soon. Is Cameron actually a proud Briton?
    Delusional II .... Cameron will not be PM after the 2020 GE. Jezza is a complete loser and frankly any barely competent Conservative on their last few breaths will beat the clusterf*ck presently impersonating a Labour Party leader.

    Further being a proud Briton isn't the preserve of LEAVE.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
    Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
    Which is of course Blair's calculation - "they've nowhere else to go"

    This works short term but long term they walk off and for the Tories, their victory margin is simply too slim to keep pissing their right wing voters off. At some point the Tories will come a giant cropper like Labour in Scotland.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    I do love this argument that Cameron getting Obama to agree with him is demeaning to Cameron. Bravo!

    He's trashing his brand - just in a different way.
    He really isn't. This is an impressive campaign however you look at it. That's why there's so much incoherent squealing from the Leave side, although it's baffling to me that they are surprised either by the nature or the intensity of the Remain campaign.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Only if there is a smidgen chance that he actually meant it. Which there isn't as I've said.

    The US will always look after number one. If we leave it will be in the interests of the US to make a deal, so they will, but our decision hasn't been made yet so it is in the interests of the US to deny that they would today. The US has a way of reversing an established policy if it no longer suits its interests.

    It will be in the interests of the US to make a deal which favours the US. Even that might not be a priority over other trade deals.
    The US is capable of multitasking, there is no "queue" or "priority". All that matters is how easily and readily a deal can be agreed. Realistically we are not going to struggle to make an agreement and once an agreement is signed it goes to Congress for approval, where it will be ratified.
    Basically, what you are saying is that the US should prioritise the UK over every thing else it has to do.

    The LEAVErs should realise they cannot twist everyone around their little finger.

    Somehow every country will have to leave everything aside so as to complete a trade deal with the UK.

    Of course, the UK can trade with any country but not necessarily at preferential terms.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    Barnesian said:

    SeanT said:

    C'*nt Obama

    But REMAIN was always going to win. This will just make their victory slightly more emphatic, and much more envenomed. The fall-out after this "betrayal" could destroy the Tory party as we know it.
    .

    I love it. Two wins.
    Shhh! Gloating is unseemly and beneath us. Bwahahaha.

    More seriously, there's plenty of time yet till June, and the media like to ring the changes, so there will be better Leave days. But, as in 1975, they are really, really short of people widely seen as serious heavyweights. Boris, Gove, Farage, Galloway, and guest appearances from Trump and Le Pen. This is where they really needed someone like Theresa May.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    Total Bullshit Comment 5,193 .... and that's just this thread !!

    Your opinion is not always right, you know.

    It most certainly is in respect of your ridiculous hyperbole on this thread.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    watford30 said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
    Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
    Winning the Referendum, but destroying the Tory party will be a bitter legacy to live with.
    If Cameron wins big he won't destroy the Tory party as this issue will be dead. It's if he wins by a tiny margin that the issue will remain rancorous as people push for one more go (see Scotland).

    Therefore it makes sense to go for the jugular.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Scott_P said:

    tlg86 said:

    I will never vote Tory again. The Party is scum in my eyes. Out of spite I might vote Labour in 2020.

    You'll vote for a party that wants tighter EU integration.

    Yup, that'll teach 'em.
    It will make no difference.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478

    Would British military personnel also be at the 'back of the queue' when it comes to dying in the USA's wars ?

    Well, it might be worth remembering that in WWII the US had more fighters killed in action, than did this country (although not more killed including bombing).
    It also might be noted that Europe has a many centuries old history of fighting like ferrets in a poke.
    Nearing the end of his tenure, apparently comfortable in his skin and not worried about re-election, Obama seems to have made a tick list of things to try: Cuba, an excellent supreme court nomination, guns, the referendum, etc.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    watford30 said:

    JackW said:

    SeanT said:

    Barnesian said:

    SeanT said:

    C'*nt Obama

    But REMAIN was always going to win. This will just make their victory slightly more emphatic, and much more envenomed. The fall-out after this "betrayal" could destroy the Tory party as we know it.
    .

    I love it. Two wins.
    Indeed. I think these are promising days for Labour. Ominously.

    Delusional .... unlike the British electorate when it comes to the prospect of PM Jezza.
    Assuming he hasn't stepped down before 2020.

    What then Jack?
    I refer you to my comment at 6:30pm.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800
    JackW said:

    JackW said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    Total Bullshit Comment 5,193 .... and that's just this thread !!

    Your opinion is not always right, you know.

    It most certainly is in respect of your ridiculous hyperbole on this thread.
    Your arrogance knows no bounds Jack.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016
    JackW said:

    chestnut said:

    JackW said:

    SeanT said:

    Barnesian said:

    SeanT said:

    C'*nt Obama

    But REMAIN was always going to win. This will just make their victory slightly more emphatic, and much more envenomed. The fall-out after this "betrayal" could destroy the Tory party as we know it.
    .

    I love it. Two wins.
    Indeed. I think these are promising days for Labour. Ominously.

    Delusional .... unlike the British electorate when it comes to the prospect of PM Jezza.
    A great many ordinary folk may not like Corbyn very much, but Cameron will be plumbing the same depths soon. Is Cameron actually a proud Briton?
    Delusional II .... Cameron will not be PM after the 2020 GE. Jezza is a complete loser and frankly any barely competent Conservative on their last few breaths will beat the clusterf*ck presently impersonating a Labour Party leader.

    Further being a proud Briton isn't the preserve of LEAVE.
    Your 'infallible' plan is based on Corbyn remaining as Labour leader.

    BTW Does it make you proud to watch the British Prime Minister bending over, for some 'Special Relationship'? First Hollande, now Obama.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Back of queue eh Obama?

    That is how you treat a key ally?

    Nothing but utter contempt for the man.

    He really can CENSORED

    I know several people who will be infuriated by that.

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    I can't see a way for the REMAIN minority in the Tory party to avoid this civil war, a war they will find hard to win.

    Which is all jolly good news for Labour.

    Except the remainers currently hold all the positions of power. If they purge the "losers', what are they going to do? Defecting to UKIP will have been shown to be futile.
    Cameron has a working majority of 18. You seriously think it will be that difficult to find 10 Tory MPs who are willing to vote against the Government at every opportunity after the way he has behaved?
    Quite.

    And then of course comes the Tory leadership election. A REMAINIAN won't win that.
    So lets imagine for a second that Cameron wins his referendum by a large margin, that surely puts the issue to be. If as you say a leaver wins the election he'd surely say something like "recognising the will of the country we have other priorities". Tory party is reunited, Europe issue resolved, life moves on.

    Sounds like a great legacy to me if that happens.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    FPT but relevant to this thread so I shall repost:

    Things I've learned today:

    1) David Cameron is not going to back down in the face of threats, express or implied, to his leadership. He is fighting this referendum to win and he hasn't even heard of Queensberry rules. He simply doesn't care what affront it causes those who are opposed to him.

    2) Boris Johnson isn't going to get a job off David Cameron after the referendum unless David Cameron must give him one. And "must" is going to be interpreted in a very strict way, in the same way that we must breathe.

    3) Remain are working on a very well-planned grid.

    4) Leave are not.

    I think you are right on all those points. I would add another. Any chance Cameron had of ever hoping to reunite the Tory party after the referendum is disappearing very, very quickly.
    It is difficult to unite two parties.

    I have to admit I have been taken aback at the ferocity with which the LEAVErs are taking this. To me, as a REMAINer, I would like to stay within the EU. But I will not kill myself for it.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    JackW said:

    chestnut said:

    JackW said:

    SeanT said:

    Barnesian said:

    SeanT said:

    C'*nt Obama

    But REMAIN was always going to win. This will just make their victory slightly more emphatic, and much more envenomed. The fall-out after this "betrayal" could destroy the Tory party as we know it.
    .

    I love it. Two wins.
    Indeed. I think these are promising days for Labour. Ominously.

    Delusional .... unlike the British electorate when it comes to the prospect of PM Jezza.
    A great many ordinary folk may not like Corbyn very much, but Cameron will be plumbing the same depths soon. Is Cameron actually a proud Briton?
    Delusional II .... Cameron will not be PM after the 2020 GE. Jezza is a complete loser and frankly any barely competent Conservative on their last few breaths will beat the clusterf*ck presently impersonating a Labour Party leader.

    Further being a proud Briton isn't the preserve of LEAVE.
    Cameron is crucifying the Tory brand unless being a Tory actually means being a Lib Dem.

    The kind of people that tipped the scales and gave him the benefit of the doubt in May 2015 won't do it again.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    Just as it was obvious to all but the most deluded that Cameron was always going to advocate staying in the EU, so it is obvious that giving the UK beneficial trade deals post-Brexit is not going to be a priority for the US or any other major trading nation. This is realpolitik.

    Of course it will be in the US's interests. It just isn't in their interest to admit it right now. That is realpolitik.

    Not really - does the US need more access to the UK market than it has now enough to give the UK more access to the US market than it has now? No, it has bigger fish to fry. And the same applies to all other major trading nations. They'll do a deal if we give them what they want whilst not giving us what we want, but otherwise they won't.

    We are the fifth largest fish in the world. Since the US isn't seeking to make a deal with itself, that makes us the fourth largest fish in the world for them to catch.

    We are also very aligned culturally and economically. A deal will be valuable and easy to make.

    It just doesn't make sense to say so.

    The Americans already have plenty access to the UK. If getting more involves giving us more, why bother? And there is certainly no such thing as an easy trade deal - especially in the US. Good luck to any Democrat president trying to get a deal that benefits a foreign country through a Republican controlled Congress. Hillary will not waste precious political capital on it.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    edited April 2016

    I do love this argument that Cameron getting Obama to agree with him is demeaning to Cameron. Bravo!

    He's trashing his brand - just in a different way.
    He really isn't. This is an impressive campaign however you look at it. That's why there's so much incoherent squealing from the Leave side, although it's baffling to me that they are surprised either by the nature or the intensity of the Remain campaign.
    No Richard, impressive would be a gracious victory with something to heal afterwards.

    He is leaving too many open sores for people to accept loss the way you think they will. Which imo is bizarre since Remains by all calaculations are on track to win and always have been. He has added rancour where none was needed. People tend not to forget that easily.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited April 2016
    Many important British political figures have potentially insulted the next president if Trump wins, and Obama has ridiculed Brexit which is still a possible outcome of the referendum. Interesting state of affairs.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    surbiton said:

    Only if there is a smidgen chance that he actually meant it. Which there isn't as I've said.

    The US will always look after number one. If we leave it will be in the interests of the US to make a deal, so they will, but our decision hasn't been made yet so it is in the interests of the US to deny that they would today. The US has a way of reversing an established policy if it no longer suits its interests.

    It will be in the interests of the US to make a deal which favours the US. Even that might not be a priority over other trade deals.
    The US is capable of multitasking, there is no "queue" or "priority". All that matters is how easily and readily a deal can be agreed. Realistically we are not going to struggle to make an agreement and once an agreement is signed it goes to Congress for approval, where it will be ratified.
    Basically, what you are saying is that the US should prioritise the UK over every thing else it has to do.

    The LEAVErs should realise they cannot twist everyone around their little finger.

    Somehow every country will have to leave everything aside so as to complete a trade deal with the UK.

    Of course, the UK can trade with any country but not necessarily at preferential terms.
    I'm not saying it should prioritise over anything else, I'm saying a deal with us will be easy to sign and uncontroversial. Why would the US repudiate an uncontroversial, easy, good deal?

    It is trade deals with developing nations exporting jobs that the US hates at the moment, not large developed English-speaking nations.
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    JackW said:

    JackW said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    Total Bullshit Comment 5,193 .... and that's just this thread !!

    Your opinion is not always right, you know.

    It most certainly is in respect of your ridiculous hyperbole on this thread.

    I stand by my statement.

    No, I don't expect you (from your position) to understand it. That doesn't stop it being valid.

  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    watford30 said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
    Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
    Winning the Referendum, but destroying the Tory party will be a bitter legacy to live with.
    If Cameron wins big he won't destroy the Tory party as this issue will be dead. It's if he wins by a tiny margin that the issue will remain rancorous as people push for one more go (see Scotland).

    Therefore it makes sense to go for the jugular.
    If you really believe he hasn't already destroyed the Tory party then you are in cloud cuckoo land
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 2,973
    Today was massive. Remain will win but I think Cameron's position will soon become untenable as the Tory party will rip him to shreds.
  • steve_garnersteve_garner Posts: 1,019
    Obama had no need to say Britain would be at the back of the queue. He could have made his point quite adequately without resorting to such provocative language. I suspect there will be many Brits including die hard remainers who will feel insulted that a POTUS has belittled Britain in this way.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    The two most relevant features the news stations seem to be taking from this is "back of the queue" and Boris's Kenyan reference. One damaging to Boris's campaign the other to Boris personally.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Just as it was obvious to all but the most deluded that Cameron was always going to advocate staying in the EU, so it is obvious that giving the UK beneficial trade deals post-Brexit is not going to be a priority for the US or any other major trading nation. This is realpolitik.

    Of course it will be in the US's interests. It just isn't in their interest to admit it right now. That is realpolitik.

    Not really - does the US need more access to the UK market than it has now enough to give the UK more access to the US market than it has now? No, it has bigger fish to fry. And the same applies to all other major trading nations. They'll do a deal if we give them what they want whilst not giving us what we want, but otherwise they won't.

    We are the fifth largest fish in the world. Since the US isn't seeking to make a deal with itself, that makes us the fourth largest fish in the world for them to catch.

    We are also very aligned culturally and economically. A deal will be valuable and easy to make.

    It just doesn't make sense to say so.

    The Americans already have plenty access to the UK. If getting more involves giving us more, why bother? And there is certainly no such thing as an easy trade deal - especially in the US. Good luck to any Democrat president trying to get a deal that benefits a foreign country through a Republican controlled Congress. Hillary will not waste precious political capital on it.

    If its reciprocal why not bother? You're also assuming the Republicans would object. Many Republicans would happily burnish their credentials by agreeing to a deal with us while repudiating deals with the likes of China and Mexico.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited April 2016
    I am not sure why the LEAVErs are so upset with Obama's support for REMAIN.

    Soon you will get Marine Le Pen here to support the LEAVErs !
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    I can't see a way for the REMAIN minority in the Tory party to avoid this civil war, a war they will find hard to win.

    Which is all jolly good news for Labour.

    Except the remainers currently hold all the positions of power. If they purge the "losers', what are they going to do? Defecting to UKIP will have been shown to be futile.
    Cameron has a working majority of 18. You seriously think it will be that difficult to find 10 Tory MPs who are willing to vote against the Government at every opportunity after the way he has behaved?
    Indeed.

    We've already seen humiliating government U-turns on pensions and benefits.

    There's no shortage of other government policies which are not generally popular. How many MPs will be willing to defend them ?

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Courtesy of @NumbrCrunchrPolitics, some perspective on public interest in politics:

    https://twitter.com/aedwardslevy/status/723561998118715393
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Floater, it will be interesting to see how people react. I'd guess it'll entrench opinions of those already leaning one way, but, as usual, the floating voters are the ones who matter most.

    In case anyone missed it earlier, if you're on Twitter I'd greatly appreciate a vote in this poll (just about when best to space apart the books in a trilogy release). I do actually have one on the go, so it'd be very helpful.

    https://twitter.com/MorrisF1/status/723496885575671808

    Anyway, must be off.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    FPT but relevant to this thread so I shall repost:

    Things I've learned today:

    1) David Cameron is not going to back down in the face of threats, express or implied, to his leadership. He is fighting this referendum to win and he hasn't even heard of Queensberry rules. He simply doesn't care what affront it causes those who are opposed to him.

    2) Boris Johnson isn't going to get a job off David Cameron after the referendum unless David Cameron must give him one. And "must" is going to be interpreted in a very strict way, in the same way that we must breathe.

    3) Remain are working on a very well-planned grid.

    4) Leave are not.

    I think you are right on all those points. I would add another. Any chance Cameron had of ever hoping to reunite the Tory party after the referendum is disappearing very, very quickly.
    I suspect the only way to reunite the Tory party is for either a leave win by even 1 vote or a remain landslide. Today helps the latter and thus helps the odds of Tory reunification (even if it is under a new PM).
    Not sure even a huge Remain win will reunite the Tories. Do you really see MPs like Peter Bone reconciling themselves with Cameron or anyone who campaigned for Remain? And he will be by no means alone.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Obama had no need to say Britain would be at the back of the queue. He could have made his point quite adequately without resorting to such provocative language. I suspect there will be many Brits including die hard remainers who will feel insulted that a POTUS has belittled Britain in this way.

    How does it belittle Britain?

    It is British fair play that famously recognises queues and objects to queue jumping afterall. Why should we expect to queue jump?

    I think we would, since we're both valuable and an easy lay. But why would it be unreasonable for us not to?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Still 6 weeks to go.

    Can someone die of Popcorn overload.

    9 weeks to go less a day!
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    FPT but relevant to this thread so I shall repost:

    Things I've learned today:

    1) David Cameron is not going to back down in the face of threats, express or implied, to his leadership. He is fighting this referendum to win and he hasn't even heard of Queensberry rules. He simply doesn't care what affront it causes those who are opposed to him.

    2) Boris Johnson isn't going to get a job off David Cameron after the referendum unless David Cameron must give him one. And "must" is going to be interpreted in a very strict way, in the same way that we must breathe.

    3) Remain are working on a very well-planned grid.

    4) Leave are not.

    I think you are right on all those points. I would add another. Any chance Cameron had of ever hoping to reunite the Tory party after the referendum is disappearing very, very quickly.
    I suspect the only way to reunite the Tory party is for either a leave win by even 1 vote or a remain landslide. Today helps the latter and thus helps the odds of Tory reunification (even if it is under a new PM).
    Not sure even a huge Remain win will reunite the Tories. Do you really see MPs like Peter Bone reconciling themselves with Cameron or anyone who campaigned for Remain? And he will be by no means alone.
    Since Cameron will be gone afterwards come what may and since Farage has shown defecting is a political death sentence, why would Bone not reconcile himself with a new Tory leader?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    JackW said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    Total Bullshit Comment 5,193 .... and that's just this thread !!

    Your opinion is not always right, you know.

    It most certainly is in respect of your ridiculous hyperbole on this thread.

    I stand by my statement.

    No, I don't expect you (from your position) to understand it. That doesn't stop it being valid.

    What "position" is that?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Courtesy of @NumbrCrunchrPolitics, some perspective on public interest in politics:

    https://twitter.com/aedwardslevy/status/723561998118715393

    Who googles "Donald Trump" or "Hilary Rodham Clinton"?
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016
    JackW said:

    watford30 said:

    JackW said:

    SeanT said:

    Barnesian said:

    SeanT said:

    C'*nt Obama

    But REMAIN was always going to win. This will just make their victory slightly more emphatic, and much more envenomed. The fall-out after this "betrayal" could destroy the Tory party as we know it.
    .

    I love it. Two wins.
    Indeed. I think these are promising days for Labour. Ominously.

    Delusional .... unlike the British electorate when it comes to the prospect of PM Jezza.
    Assuming he hasn't stepped down before 2020.

    What then Jack?
    I refer you to my comment at 6:30pm.
    Your reply assumes Corbyn is still leader in 2020.

    You seem unable to contemplate the possibility that he might not be. Were he to step down it does rather look as if a GE result would be somewhat different...

    And you know it.
  • WandererWanderer Posts: 3,838
    RobD said:

    Courtesy of @NumbrCrunchrPolitics, some perspective on public interest in politics:

    https://twitter.com/aedwardslevy/status/723561998118715393

    Who googles "Donald Trump" or "Hilary Rodham Clinton"?
    Mind you, Prince won't be repeating that trick.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    I can't see a way for the REMAIN minority in the Tory party to avoid this civil war, a war they will find hard to win.

    Which is all jolly good news for Labour.

    Except the remainers currently hold all the positions of power. If they purge the "losers', what are they going to do? Defecting to UKIP will have been shown to be futile.
    Cameron has a working majority of 18. You seriously think it will be that difficult to find 10 Tory MPs who are willing to vote against the Government at every opportunity after the way he has behaved?
    Quite.

    And then of course comes the Tory leadership election. A REMAINIAN won't win that.
    So lets imagine for a second that Cameron wins his referendum by a large margin, that surely puts the issue to be. If as you say a leaver wins the election he'd surely say something like "recognising the will of the country we have other priorities". Tory party is reunited, Europe issue resolved, life moves on.

    Sounds like a great legacy to me if that happens.
    Except it is pure fantasy.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    I can't see a way for the REMAIN minority in the Tory party to avoid this civil war, a war they will find hard to win.

    Which is all jolly good news for Labour.

    Except the remainers currently hold all the positions of power. If they purge the "losers', what are they going to do? Defecting to UKIP will have been shown to be futile.
    Cameron has a working majority of 18. You seriously think it will be that difficult to find 10 Tory MPs who are willing to vote against the Government at every opportunity after the way he has behaved?
    Quite.

    And then of course comes the Tory leadership election. A REMAINIAN won't win that.
    So lets imagine for a second that Cameron wins his referendum by a large margin, that surely puts the issue to be. If as you say a leaver wins the election he'd surely say something like "recognising the will of the country we have other priorities". Tory party is reunited, Europe issue resolved, life moves on.

    Sounds like a great legacy to me if that happens.
    No, you're completely wrong. You don't understand the emotions. Look at Scotland. NO actually won pretty well there, by a bigger margin than most expected (at the end). Usually that would kill off an issue. But the emotions stirred were so ferocious, the bitterness sowed so divided, indy continues to dominate Scotch politics today, and its the Nats who have benefited.

    We are following exactly the same pattern, with the threats and counter-threats a mirror image of the indy campaign.
    Two massive differences.

    One: The No campaign was led by a single party (the SNP) that stood to benefit against a divided opposition. The Leave campaign is now led by Tories being opposed by Tories.

    Two: The No campaign held the reigns of the Scottish government and used the powers of the Scottish government to further its agenda. The British government is furthering its own agenda still here but it is on the Remain not Leave side.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684

    JackW said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    Total Bullshit Comment 5,193 .... and that's just this thread !!

    Your opinion is not always right, you know.

    Not even often
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    I can't see a way for the REMAIN minority in the Tory party to avoid this civil war, a war they will find hard to win.

    Which is all jolly good news for Labour.

    Except the remainers currently hold all the positions of power. If they purge the "losers', what are they going to do? Defecting to UKIP will have been shown to be futile.
    Cameron has a working majority of 18. You seriously think it will be that difficult to find 10 Tory MPs who are willing to vote against the Government at every opportunity after the way he has behaved?
    Quite.

    And then of course comes the Tory leadership election. A REMAINIAN won't win that.
    So lets imagine for a second that Cameron wins his referendum by a large margin, that surely puts the issue to be. If as you say a leaver wins the election he'd surely say something like "recognising the will of the country we have other priorities". Tory party is reunited, Europe issue resolved, life moves on.

    Sounds like a great legacy to me if that happens.
    No, you're completely wrong. You don't understand the emotions. Look at Scotland. NO actually won pretty well there, by a bigger margin than most expected (at the end). Usually that would kill off an issue. But the emotions stirred were so ferocious, the bitterness sowed so divided, indy continues to dominate Scotch politics today, and its the Nats who have benefited.

    We are following exactly the same pattern, with the threats and counter-threats a mirror image of the indy campaign.
    Yup, but the "they've nowhere else to go" believers still hold to their mantra
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    tlg86 said:

    I will never vote Tory again. The Party is scum in my eyes. Out of spite I might vote Labour in 2020.

    Why am I enjoying this ?
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited April 2016
    Why is there such an explosion on PB about Obama ?

    He's a lame duck US president, I know that there is always an alliance of world leaders travelling to country X to dictate the terms of public conversation, it happens and it's boring.

    It's not news.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    FPT but relevant to this thread so I shall repost:

    Things I've learned today:

    1) David Cameron is not going to back down in the face of threats, express or implied, to his leadership. He is fighting this referendum to win and he hasn't even heard of Queensberry rules. He simply doesn't care what affront it causes those who are opposed to him.

    2) Boris Johnson isn't going to get a job off David Cameron after the referendum unless David Cameron must give him one. And "must" is going to be interpreted in a very strict way, in the same way that we must breathe.

    3) Remain are working on a very well-planned grid.

    4) Leave are not.

    I think you are right on all those points. I would add another. Any chance Cameron had of ever hoping to reunite the Tory party after the referendum is disappearing very, very quickly.
    I suspect the only way to reunite the Tory party is for either a leave win by even 1 vote or a remain landslide. Today helps the latter and thus helps the odds of Tory reunification (even if it is under a new PM).
    Not sure even a huge Remain win will reunite the Tories. Do you really see MPs like Peter Bone reconciling themselves with Cameron or anyone who campaigned for Remain? And he will be by no means alone.
    Since Cameron will be gone afterwards come what may and since Farage has shown defecting is a political death sentence, why would Bone not reconcile himself with a new Tory leader?
    Because he can quite easily stay right where he is and destroy Cameron's legacy. It would be what Cameron deserves and I would hope there would be enough MPs with principles who would do it.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    I can't see a way for the REMAIN minority in the Tory party to avoid this civil war, a war they will find hard to win.

    Which is all jolly good news for Labour.

    Except the remainers currently hold all the positions of power. If they purge the "losers', what are they going to do? Defecting to UKIP will have been shown to be futile.
    Cameron has a working majority of 18. You seriously think it will be that difficult to find 10 Tory MPs who are willing to vote against the Government at every opportunity after the way he has behaved?
    Quite.

    And then of course comes the Tory leadership election. A REMAINIAN won't win that.
    So lets imagine for a second that Cameron wins his referendum by a large margin, that surely puts the issue to be. If as you say a leaver wins the election he'd surely say something like "recognising the will of the country we have other priorities". Tory party is reunited, Europe issue resolved, life moves on.

    Sounds like a great legacy to me if that happens.
    No, you're completely wrong. You don't understand the emotions. Look at Scotland. NO actually won pretty well there, by a bigger margin than most expected (at the end). Usually that would kill off an issue. But the emotions stirred were so ferocious, the bitterness sowed so divided, indy continues to dominate Scotch politics today, and its the Nats who have benefited.

    We are following exactly the same pattern, with the threats and counter-threats a mirror image of the indy campaign.
    Yup, but the "they've nowhere else to go" believers still hold to their mantra
    What alternative route should a Remain supporting PM take?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    The Tories really do look to be tearing themselves apart. Normally, this would be immensely enjoyable. But given Corbyn Labour's unelectability it's really going to harm the country. This has been a poor government and it's clear it's not going to get any better. We'll all end up paying a price, whatever the referendum result.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,048

    I do love this argument that Cameron getting Obama to agree with him is demeaning to Cameron. Bravo!

    He's trashing his brand - just in a different way.
    He really isn't. This is an impressive campaign however you look at it. That's why there's so much incoherent squealing from the Leave side, although it's baffling to me that they are surprised either by the nature or the intensity of the Remain campaign.
    It is a very impressive campaign.

    I've decided it's silly to look at these campaigns as in any way equal. One has all the authority, patronage, and resources of the state, the civil service, the state broadcaster. It can also call upon aligned international organisations, the international political class, and big corporations. Compared to Indyref, where the 'Yes' side enjoyed the considerable 'home advantage' of support from the Scottish Government, who framed the question, and did all sorts of other vaguely underhand things to tip the scales in favour of 'Yes', the 'Leave' campaign really has nothing.

    Considering these factors, it's a mark of how deeply unpopular the EU is in the UK that the polls show a fairly small advantage for Remain. It's pleasing and surprising that Boris joined 'Leave', and that a few newspapers seem to want to make a fight of it. Other than that, Leave has bugger all in its favour, and I'm just going to be pleased they're running Remain close, and take this referendum as a first step in the process of getting our country back.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100

    Courtesy of @NumbrCrunchrPolitics, some perspective on public interest in politics:

    https://twitter.com/aedwardslevy/status/723561998118715393

    Proof of my view that the Obama visit is not news.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    watford30 said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
    Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
    Winning the Referendum, but destroying the Tory party will be a bitter legacy to live with.
    If Cameron wins big he won't destroy the Tory party as this issue will be dead. It's if he wins by a tiny margin that the issue will remain rancorous as people push for one more go (see Scotland).

    Therefore it makes sense to go for the jugular.
    If you really believe he hasn't already destroyed the Tory party then you are in cloud cuckoo land
    Wishful thinking from you and @Seant.

    Despite rifts more significant than this referendum the Conservatives are the most successful political party in British history because they have the eye for the main chance and the ability to forge together again to win.

    It's what they do best - Win.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    I can't see a way for the REMAIN minority in the Tory party to avoid this civil war, a war they will find hard to win.

    Which is all jolly good news for Labour.

    Except the remainers currently hold all the positions of power. If they purge the "losers', what are they going to do? Defecting to UKIP will have been shown to be futile.
    Cameron has a working majority of 18. You seriously think it will be that difficult to find 10 Tory MPs who are willing to vote against the Government at every opportunity after the way he has behaved?
    Indeed.

    We've already seen humiliating government U-turns on pensions and benefits.

    There's no shortage of other government policies which are not generally popular. How many MPs will be willing to defend them ?

    Academies coming up. Junior doctors.............
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    JackW said:

    watford30 said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
    Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
    Winning the Referendum, but destroying the Tory party will be a bitter legacy to live with.
    If Cameron wins big he won't destroy the Tory party as this issue will be dead. It's if he wins by a tiny margin that the issue will remain rancorous as people push for one more go (see Scotland).

    Therefore it makes sense to go for the jugular.
    If you really believe he hasn't already destroyed the Tory party then you are in cloud cuckoo land
    Wishful thinking from you and @Seant.

    Despite rifts more significant than this referendum the Conservatives are the most successful political party in British history because they have the eye for the main chance and the ability to forge together again to win.

    It's what they do best - Win.
    Half a Tory party won't win an election against a Labour one lead by Corbyn's successor.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited April 2016
    Turning on the betting side.

    An INDIANA poll, finally:

    Trump 37
    Cruz 31
    Kasich 22

    Hillary 48
    Sanders 45

    http://www.wthr.com/story/31792956/exclusive-wthrhpi-poll-trump-clinton-ahead-in-indiana

    The GOP chairman has got the message that Trump will probably be the nominee:

    http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/gop-primaries/277265-priebus-we-arent-going-to-hand-the-nomination-to-anyone-with-a#.VxpdsTu5_6s

    "Priebus slams Never Trump movement, calls for GOP unity"
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    JackW said:

    watford30 said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
    Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
    Winning the Referendum, but destroying the Tory party will be a bitter legacy to live with.
    If Cameron wins big he won't destroy the Tory party as this issue will be dead. It's if he wins by a tiny margin that the issue will remain rancorous as people push for one more go (see Scotland).

    Therefore it makes sense to go for the jugular.
    If you really believe he hasn't already destroyed the Tory party then you are in cloud cuckoo land
    Wishful thinking from you and @Seant.

    Despite rifts more significant than this referendum the Conservatives are the most successful political party in British history because they have the eye for the main chance and the ability to forge together again to win.

    It's what they do best - Win.
    Shame they're shit at government
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Roger said:

    The two most relevant features the news stations seem to be taking from this is "back of the queue" and Boris's Kenyan reference. One damaging to Boris's campaign the other to Boris personally.

    Did Boris mention that he was part-Turkish ?
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    watford30 said:

    JackW said:

    watford30 said:

    JackW said:

    SeanT said:

    Barnesian said:

    SeanT said:

    C'*nt Obama

    But REMAIN was always going to win. This will just make their victory slightly more emphatic, and much more envenomed. The fall-out after this "betrayal" could destroy the Tory party as we know it.
    .

    I love it. Two wins.
    Indeed. I think these are promising days for Labour. Ominously.

    Delusional .... unlike the British electorate when it comes to the prospect of PM Jezza.
    Assuming he hasn't stepped down before 2020.

    What then Jack?
    I refer you to my comment at 6:30pm.
    Your reply assumes Corbyn is still leader in 2020.

    You seem unable to contemplate the possibility that he might not be. Were he to step down it does rather look as if a GE result would be somewhat different...

    And you know it.
    I know if Jezza is replaced the £3 mob will vote Jezza-lite and with the same inevitable result.

    Labour are doomed until they come to their senses.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    JackW said:

    watford30 said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
    Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
    Winning the Referendum, but destroying the Tory party will be a bitter legacy to live with.
    If Cameron wins big he won't destroy the Tory party as this issue will be dead. It's if he wins by a tiny margin that the issue will remain rancorous as people push for one more go (see Scotland).

    Therefore it makes sense to go for the jugular.
    If you really believe he hasn't already destroyed the Tory party then you are in cloud cuckoo land
    Wishful thinking from you and @Seant.

    Despite rifts more significant than this referendum the Conservatives are the most successful political party in British history because they have the eye for the main chance and the ability to forge together again to win.

    It's what they do best - Win.
    Remember Jack past performance is no guide to the future.

    See Liberals.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Obama had no need to say Britain would be at the back of the queue. He could have made his point quite adequately without resorting to such provocative language. I suspect there will be many Brits including die hard remainers who will feel insulted that a POTUS has belittled Britain in this way.

    Queue jumping is something Brits thoroughly detest. It will be seen as fair play.

    The best way to avoid this supposed "insult" is to vote REMAIN. Then such an eventuality will not come about, if you are so insulted.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,048
    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    I can't see a way for the REMAIN minority in the Tory party to avoid this civil war, a war they will find hard to win.

    Which is all jolly good news for Labour.

    Except the remainers currently hold all the positions of power. If they purge the "losers', what are they going to do? Defecting to UKIP will have been shown to be futile.
    Cameron has a working majority of 18. You seriously think it will be that difficult to find 10 Tory MPs who are willing to vote against the Government at every opportunity after the way he has behaved?
    Indeed.

    We've already seen humiliating government U-turns on pensions and benefits.

    There's no shortage of other government policies which are not generally popular. How many MPs will be willing to defend them ?

    Academies coming up. Junior doctors.............
    It's why the next leader will have to be a LEAVER.

    Gove it is, then.

    Boris was stupid to mention Kenya. He'd upped his game recently, but that was an unforced error. He could easily have coded his meaning.
    No. Patel, with the backing of David Davis. It has to be. It's history.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    I can't see a way for the REMAIN minority in the Tory party to avoid this civil war, a war they will find hard to win.

    Which is all jolly good news for Labour.

    Except the remainers currently hold all the positions of power. If they purge the "losers', what are they going to do? Defecting to UKIP will have been shown to be futile.
    Cameron has a working majority of 18. You seriously think it will be that difficult to find 10 Tory MPs who are willing to vote against the Government at every opportunity after the way he has behaved?
    Quite.

    And then of course comes the Tory leadership election. A REMAINIAN won't win that.
    So lets imagine for a second that Cameron wins his referendum by a large margin, that surely puts the issue to be. If as you say a leaver wins the election he'd surely say something like "recognising the will of the country we have other priorities". Tory party is reunited, Europe issue resolved, life moves on.

    Sounds like a great legacy to me if that happens.
    No, you're completely wrong. You don't understand the emotions. Look at Scotland. NO actually won pretty well there, by a bigger margin than most expected (at the end). Usually that would kill off an issue. But the emotions stirred were so ferocious, the bitterness sowed so divided, indy continues to dominate Scotch politics today, and its the Nats who have benefited.

    We are following exactly the same pattern, with the threats and counter-threats a mirror image of the indy campaign.
    Yup, but the "they've nowhere else to go" believers still hold to their mantra
    What alternative route should a Remain supporting PM take?
    He will still win quite comfortably without rubbing his party's leavers' noses in it. That makes unity that bit easier.
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    edited April 2016
    JackW said:

    watford30 said:

    JackW said:

    watford30 said:

    JackW said:

    SeanT said:

    Barnesian said:

    SeanT said:

    C'*nt Obama

    But REMAIN was always going to win. This will just make their victory slightly more emphatic, and much more envenomed. The fall-out after this "betrayal" could destroy the Tory party as we know it.
    .

    I love it. Two wins.
    Indeed. I think these are promising days for Labour. Ominously.

    Delusional .... unlike the British electorate when it comes to the prospect of PM Jezza.
    Assuming he hasn't stepped down before 2020.

    What then Jack?
    I refer you to my comment at 6:30pm.
    Your reply assumes Corbyn is still leader in 2020.

    You seem unable to contemplate the possibility that he might not be. Were he to step down it does rather look as if a GE result would be somewhat different...

    And you know it.
    I know if Jezza is replaced the £3 mob will vote Jezza-lite and with the same inevitable result.

    Labour are doomed until they come to their senses.
    More 'If' than The Treasury's prediction for 2030.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    watford30 said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
    Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
    Winning the Referendum, but destroying the Tory party will be a bitter legacy to live with.
    If Cameron wins big he won't destroy the Tory party as this issue will be dead. It's if he wins by a tiny margin that the issue will remain rancorous as people push for one more go (see Scotland).

    Therefore it makes sense to go for the jugular.
    If you really believe he hasn't already destroyed the Tory party then you are in cloud cuckoo land
    Wishful thinking from you and @Seant.

    Despite rifts more significant than this referendum the Conservatives are the most successful political party in British history because they have the eye for the main chance and the ability to forge together again to win.

    It's what they do best - Win.
    Shame they're shit at government
    Whether they are or not isn't the point. It's their ability to revive and win that is their historic record.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I'm afraid some of the Leave campaigners have completely lost the plot:

    https://twitter.com/oflynnmep/status/723564965353918465

    What are they thinking of?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    The Tories really do look to be tearing themselves apart. Normally, this would be immensely enjoyable. But given Corbyn Labour's unelectability it's really going to harm the country. This has been a poor government and it's clear it's not going to get any better. We'll all end up paying a price, whatever the referendum result.

    You might be surprised after May 5th.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    watford30 said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
    Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
    Winning the Referendum, but destroying the Tory party will be a bitter legacy to live with.
    If Cameron wins big he won't destroy the Tory party as this issue will be dead. It's if he wins by a tiny margin that the issue will remain rancorous as people push for one more go (see Scotland).

    Therefore it makes sense to go for the jugular.
    If you really believe he hasn't already destroyed the Tory party then you are in cloud cuckoo land
    Wishful thinking from you and @Seant.

    Despite rifts more significant than this referendum the Conservatives are the most successful political party in British history because they have the eye for the main chance and the ability to forge together again to win.

    It's what they do best - Win.
    Remember Jack past performance is no guide to the future.

    See Liberals.
    And Speaker Beckett too .... :smile:

    But it normally is.

  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474
    SeanT said:

    I wonder if the Tory leadership will be fought between May and Gove, as Osborne has killed his own chances, and Boris is now blowing his.

    Jesus. The Tory party is fecked.

    The alternatives are UKIP led by a self destructing Farage and the Lib Dems led by Tim Who? And Labour have Jeremy Corbyn.

    In 2020 we could have the single most unimpressive suite of party leaders since Aethelred the Unready got a narrow majority over Eadric the Wild's crazier half brother.

    Let's get rid of all of them, and give in to Europe. We'll save ourselves a fortune in MP's expenses.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    JackW said:

    watford30 said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
    Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
    Winning the Referendum, but destroying the Tory party will be a bitter legacy to live with.
    If Cameron wins big he won't destroy the Tory party as this issue will be dead. It's if he wins by a tiny margin that the issue will remain rancorous as people push for one more go (see Scotland).

    Therefore it makes sense to go for the jugular.
    If you really believe he hasn't already destroyed the Tory party then you are in cloud cuckoo land
    Wishful thinking from you and @Seant.

    Despite rifts more significant than this referendum the Conservatives are the most successful political party in British history because they have the eye for the main chance and the ability to forge together again to win.

    It's what they do best - Win.
    Agreed

    But did Cameron need Obama to rub conservative leavers nose in it ?
    I know you believe you are a know all sage.
    However events move on and the just because you are the most successful political party in britain, it can change as Scotland from 1950 to now shows.
  • chestnutchestnut Posts: 7,341
    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    watford30 said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
    Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
    Winning the Referendum, but destroying the Tory party will be a bitter legacy to live with.
    If Cameron wins big he won't destroy the Tory party as this issue will be dead. It's if he wins by a tiny margin that the issue will remain rancorous as people push for one more go (see Scotland).

    Therefore it makes sense to go for the jugular.
    If you really believe he hasn't already destroyed the Tory party then you are in cloud cuckoo land
    Wishful thinking from you and @Seant.

    Despite rifts more significant than this referendum the Conservatives are the most successful political party in British history because they have the eye for the main chance and the ability to forge together again to win.

    It's what they do best - Win.
    Shame they're shit at government
    Whether they are or not isn't the point. It's their ability to revive and win that is their historic record.
    They've won once in 24 years, Jack.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,039

    Obama had no need to say Britain would be at the back of the queue. He could have made his point quite adequately without resorting to such provocative language. I suspect there will be many Brits including die hard remainers who will feel insulted that a POTUS has belittled Britain in this way.

    How does it belittle Britain?

    It is British fair play that famously recognises queues and objects to queue jumping afterall. Why should we expect to queue jump?

    I think we would, since we're both valuable and an easy lay. But why would it be unreasonable for us not to?
    If you listen to what Obama actually said he did say there would be a US-UK trade deal somewhere down the line. Then he said we'd be back of the queue.

    But firstly it wouldn't be up to him (he won't be president in 9 months time) and secondly both the UK and the US are perfectly capable of doing more than one thing at once, and assigning priorities to their respect interests as major trading partners.

    Between 2004 and 2007 the US ratified trade deals with Australia, Chile, Singapore, Bahrain, Morocco, Oman, Peru, and the Central America Free Trade Agreement (incl. Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, and the Dominican Republic)

    Currently it is negotiating on TTIP, TPP and with New Zealand, Thailand, Ghana, Indonesia, Kenya, Kuwait, Malaysia, Mauritius, Mozambique, Taiwan, United Arab Emirates, US–Southern African Customs Union Free Trade Agreement, Ecuador, and Qatar.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    watford30 said:

    JackW said:

    watford30 said:

    JackW said:

    watford30 said:

    JackW said:

    SeanT said:

    Barnesian said:

    SeanT said:

    C'*nt Obama

    But REMAIN was always going to win. This will just make their victory slightly more emphatic, and much more envenomed. The fall-out after this "betrayal" could destroy the Tory party as we know it.
    .

    I love it. Two wins.
    Indeed. I think these are promising days for Labour. Ominously.

    Delusional .... unlike the British electorate when it comes to the prospect of PM Jezza.
    Assuming he hasn't stepped down before 2020.

    What then Jack?
    I refer you to my comment at 6:30pm.
    Your reply assumes Corbyn is still leader in 2020.

    You seem unable to contemplate the possibility that he might not be. Were he to step down it does rather look as if a GE result would be somewhat different...

    And you know it.
    I know if Jezza is replaced the £3 mob will vote Jezza-lite and with the same inevitable result.

    Labour are doomed until they come to their senses.
    More 'If' than The Treasury's prediction for 2030.
    Your "if" not mine.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Just as it was obvious to all but the most deluded that Cameron was always going to advocate staying in the EU, so it is obvious that giving the UK beneficial trade deals post-Brexit is not going to be a priority for the US or any other major trading nation. This is realpolitik.

    Of course it will be in the US's interests. It just isn't in their interest to admit it right now. That is realpolitik.

    Not really - does the US need more access to the UK market than it has now enough to give the UK more access to the US market than it has now? No, it has bigger fish to fry. And the same applies to all other major trading nations. They'll do a deal if we give them what they want whilst not giving us what we want, but otherwise they won't.

    We are the fifth largest fish in the world. Since the US isn't seeking to make a deal with itself, that makes us the fourth largest fish in the world for them to catch.

    We are also very aligned culturally and economically. A deal will be valuable and easy to make.

    It just doesn't make sense to say so.
    What does the USA sell to the UK which they could not sell otherwise ?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    watford30 said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
    Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
    Winning the Referendum, but destroying the Tory party will be a bitter legacy to live with.
    If Cameron wins big he won't destroy the Tory party as this issue will be dead. It's if he wins by a tiny margin that the issue will remain rancorous as people push for one more go (see Scotland).

    Therefore it makes sense to go for the jugular.
    If you really believe he hasn't already destroyed the Tory party then you are in cloud cuckoo land
    Wishful thinking from you and @Seant.

    Despite rifts more significant than this referendum the Conservatives are the most successful political party in British history because they have the eye for the main chance and the ability to forge together again to win.

    It's what they do best - Win.
    Shame they're shit at government
    Whether they are or not isn't the point. It's their ability to revive and win that is their historic record.
    Yeah, but all parties do that. It took 23 years for the Tories to win a majority. Not hugely impressive or remarkable.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968
    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    I can't see a way for the REMAIN minority in the Tory party to avoid this civil war, a war they will find hard to win.

    Which is all jolly good news for Labour.

    Except the remainers currently hold all the positions of power. If they purge the "losers', what are they going to do? Defecting to UKIP will have been shown to be futile.
    Cameron has a working majority of 18. You seriously think it will be that difficult to find 10 Tory MPs who are willing to vote against the Government at every opportunity after the way he has behaved?
    Indeed.

    We've already seen humiliating government U-turns on pensions and benefits.

    There's no shortage of other government policies which are not generally popular. How many MPs will be willing to defend them ?

    Academies coming up. Junior doctors.............
    Those were the two issues which came to my mind first as well.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Obama had no need to say Britain would be at the back of the queue. He could have made his point quite adequately without resorting to such provocative language. I suspect there will be many Brits including die hard remainers who will feel insulted that a POTUS has belittled Britain in this way.

    How does it belittle Britain?

    It is British fair play that famously recognises queues and objects to queue jumping afterall. Why should we expect to queue jump?

    I think we would, since we're both valuable and an easy lay. But why would it be unreasonable for us not to?
    If you listen to what Obama actually said he did say there would be a US-UK trade deal somewhere down the line. Then he said we'd be back of the queue.

    But firstly it wouldn't be up to him (he won't be president in 9 months time) and secondly both the UK and the US are perfectly capable of doing more than one thing at once, and assigning priorities to their respect interests as major trading partners.

    Between 2004 and 2007 the US ratified trade deals with Australia, Chile, Singapore, Bahrain, Morocco, Oman, Peru, and the Central America Free Trade Agreement (incl. Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, and the Dominican Republic)

    Currently it is negotiating on TTIP, TPP and with New Zealand, Thailand, Ghana, Indonesia, Kenya, Kuwait, Malaysia, Mauritius, Mozambique, Taiwan, United Arab Emirates, US–Southern African Customs Union Free Trade Agreement, Ecuador, and Qatar.
    I agree with all that. I've said I fully expect a deal if we vote leave but why would a President not support out PM in warning about the risks?
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911
    SeanT said:

    C'*nt Obama

    But REMAIN was always going to win. This will just make their victory slightly more emphatic, and much more envenomed. The fall-out after this "betrayal" could destroy the Tory party as we know it.

    Sceptics will never ever forget it, the bitterness will go on for a generation.

    Hey ho. My flat will go up in value.

    Sceptics will have to go some to get any more bitter and angry than they are already.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    surbiton said:

    Just as it was obvious to all but the most deluded that Cameron was always going to advocate staying in the EU, so it is obvious that giving the UK beneficial trade deals post-Brexit is not going to be a priority for the US or any other major trading nation. This is realpolitik.

    Of course it will be in the US's interests. It just isn't in their interest to admit it right now. That is realpolitik.

    Not really - does the US need more access to the UK market than it has now enough to give the UK more access to the US market than it has now? No, it has bigger fish to fry. And the same applies to all other major trading nations. They'll do a deal if we give them what they want whilst not giving us what we want, but otherwise they won't.

    We are the fifth largest fish in the world. Since the US isn't seeking to make a deal with itself, that makes us the fourth largest fish in the world for them to catch.

    We are also very aligned culturally and economically. A deal will be valuable and easy to make.

    It just doesn't make sense to say so.
    What does the USA sell to the UK which they could not sell otherwise ?
    That's not the question. The question is "is it in the interests of the USA to make a deal with their fourth largest trading partner, yes or no?"
  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    surbiton said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    I can't see a way for the REMAIN minority in the Tory party to avoid this civil war, a war they will find hard to win.

    Which is all jolly good news for Labour.

    Except the remainers currently hold all the positions of power. If they purge the "losers', what are they going to do? Defecting to UKIP will have been shown to be futile.
    Cameron has a working majority of 18. You seriously think it will be that difficult to find 10 Tory MPs who are willing to vote against the Government at every opportunity after the way he has behaved?
    Indeed.

    We've already seen humiliating government U-turns on pensions and benefits.

    There's no shortage of other government policies which are not generally popular. How many MPs will be willing to defend them ?

    Academies coming up. Junior doctors.............
    Those were the two issues which came to my mind first as well.
    Looks like they're both goners.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,039
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    I can't see a way for the REMAIN minority in the Tory party to avoid this civil war, a war they will find hard to win.

    Which is all jolly good news for Labour.

    Except the remainers currently hold all the positions of power. If they purge the "losers', what are they going to do? Defecting to UKIP will have been shown to be futile.
    Cameron has a working majority of 18. You seriously think it will be that difficult to find 10 Tory MPs who are willing to vote against the Government at every opportunity after the way he has behaved?
    Quite.

    And then of course comes the Tory leadership election. A REMAINIAN won't win that.
    The position Tories take in this referendum is going to define politics within the party for a generation.

    And I'm going to remember each and every one.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    surbiton said:

    The Tories really do look to be tearing themselves apart. Normally, this would be immensely enjoyable. But given Corbyn Labour's unelectability it's really going to harm the country. This has been a poor government and it's clear it's not going to get any better. We'll all end up paying a price, whatever the referendum result.

    You might be surprised after May 5th.

    To paraphrase JackW - Jeremy Corbyn will never be prime minister.

    If Labour don't do well next month after the Game of Thrones the Tory party has become it will be a catastrophic failure.

  • watford30watford30 Posts: 3,474

    surbiton said:

    The Tories really do look to be tearing themselves apart. Normally, this would be immensely enjoyable. But given Corbyn Labour's unelectability it's really going to harm the country. This has been a poor government and it's clear it's not going to get any better. We'll all end up paying a price, whatever the referendum result.

    You might be surprised after May 5th.

    To paraphrase JackW - Jeremy Corbyn will never be prime minister.



    But his successor probably will.

  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    chestnut said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    watford30 said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
    Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
    Winning the Referendum, but destroying the Tory party will be a bitter legacy to live with.
    If Cameron wins big he won't destroy the Tory party as this issue will be dead. It's if he wins by a tiny margin that the issue will remain rancorous as people push for one more go (see Scotland).

    Therefore it makes sense to go for the jugular.
    If you really believe he hasn't already destroyed the Tory party then you are in cloud cuckoo land
    Wishful thinking from you and @Seant.

    Despite rifts more significant than this referendum the Conservatives are the most successful political party in British history because they have the eye for the main chance and the ability to forge together again to win.

    It's what they do best - Win.
    Shame they're shit at government
    Whether they are or not isn't the point. It's their ability to revive and win that is their historic record.
    They've won once in 24 years, Jack.

    Or dozens of times in the past two centuries or 45 out of 75 years from 1945 to 2020. Which party has done better?
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    I do not believe Harold Wilson in 1975 went so far to demean his cabinet members who wanted to leave.
    Especially with a USA President, maybe he knew as with Vietnam , you can argue your case and have made the correct decision for Britain.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,039

    Obama had no need to say Britain would be at the back of the queue. He could have made his point quite adequately without resorting to such provocative language. I suspect there will be many Brits including die hard remainers who will feel insulted that a POTUS has belittled Britain in this way.

    How does it belittle Britain?

    It is British fair play that famously recognises queues and objects to queue jumping afterall. Why should we expect to queue jump?

    I think we would, since we're both valuable and an easy lay. But why would it be unreasonable for us not to?
    If you listen to what Obama actually said he did say there would be a US-UK trade deal somewhere down the line. Then he said we'd be back of the queue.

    But firstly it wouldn't be up to him (he won't be president in 9 months time) and secondly both the UK and the US are perfectly capable of doing more than one thing at once, and assigning priorities to their respect interests as major trading partners.

    Between 2004 and 2007 the US ratified trade deals with Australia, Chile, Singapore, Bahrain, Morocco, Oman, Peru, and the Central America Free Trade Agreement (incl. Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, and the Dominican Republic)

    Currently it is negotiating on TTIP, TPP and with New Zealand, Thailand, Ghana, Indonesia, Kenya, Kuwait, Malaysia, Mauritius, Mozambique, Taiwan, United Arab Emirates, US–Southern African Customs Union Free Trade Agreement, Ecuador, and Qatar.
    I agree with all that. I've said I fully expect a deal if we vote leave but why would a President not support out PM in warning about the risks?
    I think that's well recognised.

    The frustration of Leavers on here (and the gloating of Remainers) is that such remarks may have an impact, despite being untrue.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:

    SeanT said:

    I can't see a way for the REMAIN minority in the Tory party to avoid this civil war, a war they will find hard to win.

    Which is all jolly good news for Labour.

    Except the remainers currently hold all the positions of power. If they purge the "losers', what are they going to do? Defecting to UKIP will have been shown to be futile.
    Cameron has a working majority of 18. You seriously think it will be that difficult to find 10 Tory MPs who are willing to vote against the Government at every opportunity after the way he has behaved?
    Quite.

    And then of course comes the Tory leadership election. A REMAINIAN won't win that.
    The position Tories take in this referendum is going to define politics within the party for a generation.

    And I'm going to remember each and every one.
    Yes, the one good thing this referendum has done is to flush out where the Tories stand on this. Unfortunately I'm done with them. I don't care where they go after June 23, I will never vote for them again.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    watford30 said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
    Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
    Winning the Referendum, but destroying the Tory party will be a bitter legacy to live with.
    If Cameron wins big he won't destroy the Tory party as this issue will be dead. It's if he wins by a tiny margin that the issue will remain rancorous as people push for one more go (see Scotland).

    Therefore it makes sense to go for the jugular.
    If you really believe he hasn't already destroyed the Tory party then you are in cloud cuckoo land
    Wishful thinking from you and @Seant.

    Despite rifts more significant than this referendum the Conservatives are the most successful political party in British history because they have the eye for the main chance and the ability to forge together again to win.

    It's what they do best - Win.
    Shame they're shit at government
    Whether they are or not isn't the point. It's their ability to revive and win that is their historic record.
    Yeah, but all parties do that. It took 23 years for the Tories to win a majority. Not hugely impressive or remarkable.

    Nor is your maths ... 1997-2015.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    RE: Obama's "back of the queue" trade deal response.

    A very sad day for the state of this Government and our country. Does our PM and his closest mates in the cabinet have no pride in our country?

    They are staunch Europeans. After all that is where our future belongs.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    Jonathan said:

    JackW said:

    watford30 said:


    Well done Obama.

    You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.

    If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
    Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
    Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
    Winning the Referendum, but destroying the Tory party will be a bitter legacy to live with.
    If Cameron wins big he won't destroy the Tory party as this issue will be dead. It's if he wins by a tiny margin that the issue will remain rancorous as people push for one more go (see Scotland).

    Therefore it makes sense to go for the jugular.
    If you really believe he hasn't already destroyed the Tory party then you are in cloud cuckoo land
    Wishful thinking from you and @Seant.

    Despite rifts more significant than this referendum the Conservatives are the most successful political party in British history because they have the eye for the main chance and the ability to forge together again to win.

    It's what they do best - Win.
    Shame they're shit at government
    Whether they are or not isn't the point. It's their ability to revive and win that is their historic record.
    Yeah, but all parties do that. It took 23 years for the Tories to win a majority. Not hugely impressive or remarkable.

    Nor is your maths ... 1997-2015.
    Eh. They last won a majority in 92.
This discussion has been closed.