You've managed to demean the position of US president and UK prime minister at the same time.
If the President of the Unites States saying something that assists the strategic interests of both the United States and the UK (according to its PM) demeans both positions then that's an interesting take on the word demean.
Unfortunately for Cameron it's a view many share.
Unfortunately for the many their views won't change the outcome of the referendum which is Cameron's final plebiscite before he retires.
Winning the Referendum, but destroying the Tory party will be a bitter legacy to live with.
If Cameron wins big he won't destroy the Tory party as this issue will be dead. It's if he wins by a tiny margin that the issue will remain rancorous as people push for one more go (see Scotland).
Therefore it makes sense to go for the jugular.
If you really believe he hasn't already destroyed the Tory party then you are in cloud cuckoo land
Despite rifts more significant than this referendum the Conservatives are the most successful political party in British history because they have the eye for the main chance and the ability to forge together again to win.
It's what they do best - Win.
Shame they're shit at government
Whether they are or not isn't the point. It's their ability to revive and win that is their historic record.
Yeah, but all parties do that. It took 23 years for the Tories to win a majority. Not hugely impressive or remarkable.
Nor is your maths ... 1997-2015.
I think he meant it took the 23 years since the last time they won an absolute majority. 2015 - 1992 = 23.
Take your pick but the smell lingers.
That's Obama's shoe. He trod on something in Number 10.
What was Boris doing in Number 10?
Sam Cam.
And why not, since Sub Dave has his special relationship with Barry.
Can anyone advise me? I want to join the Tory party - not because I have any particular affinity to it despite voting them for my whole life (they are a lesser of two evils) - rather I want to have a say over the next leader. I will back anyone other than a Cameroon or a Remainer. Not sure how it works, can I do £3 job like was done for Corbyn or do I need to play a slightly longer game? Much appreciated in advance.
Leavers are lashing out in all directions precisely because Obama's comments were so effective in undermine them. That is the truth of the matter. That is why Leavers are frothing at the mouth on twitter.
I'm a Remainer, but on the matter of Obama's threat I'm frothing as much as any Leaver.
Do you not recognise the possibility that many Leavers simply do not like the leader of a foreign country coming to Britain, talking as if Britain is some kind of supplicant dependent on his own country's largesse, and threatening that our country will suffer if our people decide to change the country's relationship, not with his own country, but with some of our European fellows on this side of the wide Atlantic Ocean?
Seriously, regardless of whether you disagree with the position, do you not think it is a reasonable position for a person to take?
Yes but I didn't expect him to be so forceful. The question now is has he delivered a fatal blow to leave and also Boris. What on earth was Boris thinking. I want him in the cabinet post 23rd June but he lost all hope of PM today in my opinion
There is a feeling most remainer MPs are merely gutless leavers kowtowing to the leadership. That seems unduly optimistic to me. More likely they played up their skepticism before. The membership seems more clearly skewed to leave, so a leaver direction and leader might make things easier, but the idea it would end the duvision seems as laughable to me as the idea this going to be a civil Tory contest.
Who is this wonderful "Leaver" that the Tory MPs are lining up to be their next leader, and not just next leader - the next leader is by default the next PM? The fact that it appears that Gove is the current frontrunner shows the problem - voters will run a mile from him.
Given a choice between Gove and Corbyn, voters will unhesitatingly - rightly - plump for Gove.
Given a choice between Gove and somebody who knows how to fill out a tax form and does not have to spend all his/her time explaining their links to far right groups and the shadier members of Islington Labour Party, voters will unhesitatingly - rightly - plump for the latter.
This is where the truly cretinous delusion of Labour that they could vote for somebody who made them feel good about themselves because they were going to get another whipping in 2020 really comes home to roost. If Yvette Cooper were leading the Labour Party right now, any bet on an election in 2017 followed by a Labour government would be free money.
Why are some Tories assuming that the next leader will need to be a leaver for the sake of unity? Who's to say that would create unity? Why would the remainers fall in behind - particularly if it's someone with a history of rebellion.
Because the infuriated and embittered activists, backbenchers and associations will demand it, or threaten huge rebellion, splitting the party in two.
If the Tory party is a machine-for-winning, as JackW says (I have my doubts) then it will see the sense of acceding to this pressure. The REMAINIANS should be thankful they won the most important vote of all, pocket their triumph, refrain from gloating, and let the LEAVERS have the silver medal.
It's the only way to heal the party. To do otherwise would be foolish and possibly suicidal. These REMAINIANS like Matthew Parris threatening a "reckoning" and a "purge" after a REMAIN win are just nuts.
It's reasonable to believe there will be a purge, and a reckoning, but it's unlikely to be of Leavers. This may be the Tory party's chance to rid itself of the pro-euro tick that has been feasting itself on the party for decades.
The Tory party does not have and has never had a majority of MPs in favour of leaving the EU. Not now, not in Thatcher's day. Delusional
There is a feeling most remainer MPs are merely gutless leavers kowtowing to the leadership. That seems unduly optimistic to me. More likely they played up their skepticism before. The membership seems more clearly skewed to leave, so a leaver direction and leader might make things easier, but the idea it would end the duvision seems as laughable to me as the idea this going to be a civil Tory contest.
Who is this wonderful "Leaver" that the Tory MPs are lining up to be their next leader, and not just next leader - the next leader is by default the next PM?
I didn't say there was one. But if Leave win they'll have to find one, quick, as Cameron won't be around long after that. The fact many will want him gone even if he wins convincingly shows they won't countenance him staying if he loses, even were he minded to try.
The Tory party does not have and has never had a majority of MPs in favour of leaving the EU. Not now, not in Thatcher's day. Delusional
Just a majority of members and voters.
Members certainly, we will know about voters in June. If Remain will by a large margin it is pretty certain that a majority of Tory voters will have voted Remain.
There is a feeling most remainer MPs are merely gutless leavers kowtowing to the leadership. That seems unduly optimistic to me. More likely they played up their skepticism before. The membership seems more clearly skewed to leave, so a leaver direction and leader might make things easier, but the idea it would end the duvision seems as laughable to me as the idea this going to be a civil Tory contest.
Who is this wonderful "Leaver" that the Tory MPs are lining up to be their next leader, and not just next leader - the next leader is by default the next PM? The fact that it appears that Gove is the current frontrunner shows the problem - voters will run a mile from him.
Given a choice between Gove and Corbyn, voters will unhesitatingly - rightly - plump for Gove.
Would they though? You lay out reasons why, although he is presently disliked, Gove would be the rational choice in your opinion, and I am no fan of Corbyn at all...but I am far less confident people would be so unhesitating as you suggest in that scenario or similar.
I'd be surprised if Cameron even survived that long after a Remain win. The damage he's done to the party is astonishing, even before this afternoon's Sub/Dom session with Obama.
Like Gin, I wonder if he'll even last as long the Referendum.
This looks like the biggest US intervention in internal British politics since Suez... Remind me what happened to the Prime Minister then?
#GetCameronOut
Er, wasn't that an intervention against the wishes of the British PM?
You mean Obama wouldn't have done this if Cameron was backing Leave?
I'm saying that the cited history is of a situation where the British PM disagreed with a US President on a matter of British foreign policy (a policy in which the British were supported by other major powers) and the British PM came off the worst. So the situation is not comparable.
Whether Leavers like it or not, the fact is that Obama has intervened to support and echo the arguments of the official UK govt policy.
Leavers are lashing out in all directions precisely because Obama's comments were so effective in undermine them. That is the truth of the matter. That is why Leavers are frothing at the mouth on twitter.
I'm a Remainer, but on the matter of Obama's threat I'm frothing as much as any Leaver.
Do you not recognise the possibility that many Leavers simply do not like the leader of a foreign country coming to Britain, talking as if Britain is some kind of supplicant dependent on his own country's largesse, and threatening that our country will suffer if our people decide to change the country's relationship, not with his own country, but with some of our European fellows on this side of the wide Atlantic Ocean?
Seriously, regardless of whether you disagree with the position, do you not think it is a reasonable position for a person to take?
I saw the speech on the news and I don't interpret it in that way at all. I am absolutely convinced that the Leaver reaction to Obama is because of what he said not because he expressed an opinion per se. In isolation you might have a case but it's been the default setting of Leave for weeks now to attack and abuse anyone who makes a criticism of Brexit.
There were several moments in indyref when a huge intervention was made, from non Scots, about the dire consequences of a YES vote. e.g. Gideon on the currency, Carney on the BoE, some EU leaders on EU membership, and so forth. After each one lots of commentators thought and said Well that's it, NO have it in the bag.
I remember saying that myself a couple of times.
But often the reaction was counter-intuitive, and the polls swang to YES.
Voters don't like being bullied, and sometimes react the opposite way intended. Independence referendums are strange things.
I don't expect huge interventions to convert many Leavers to Remainers (apart from the artificial conversions trailed on here) but what the Government is trying to do is drive up turnout amongst soft Remainers, so Remain wins hands down on a high turnout.
They might succeed. But there's a catch 22 here: if it looks open & shut, turnout won't be as high depressing Remain, and some nervous Leavers will firmly vote Leave if they think they'll definitely lose anyhow.
I'll be a little nicer to Leavers once they stop telling me I'm a traitor to my country because I prefer to stay in the EU.
I'd be surprised if Cameron even survived that long after a Remain win. The damage he's done to the party is astonishing, even before this afternoon's Sub/Dom session with Obama.
Like Gin, I wonder if he'll even last as long the Referendum.
The Tories need a strong Eurosceptic leader. Michael Fallon's comments today were "interesting":
I can't quite see any country in Europe joining us to defend the Falkland Islands...
I can see the UK becoming increasingly involved with Frontex and Europol using the threat of terrorism as the perfect excuse. Then the threat of Russia can be used as an excuse to join the energy union. Can the same people who dragged us into the European Arrest Warrant be trusted?
The Sun - 'BARACK Obama was last night accused of voter blackmail by threatening to put Britain “at the back of the queue” for a trade deal if we Brexit.'
The Mail - The gospel according to Obama: President preaches at the British people and issues extraordinary warning that 'the UK will be at the back of the queue' for trade deals with America if it leaves the EU
The Telegraph - Britain would go “to the back of the queue” and would not be able to strike a trade deal with America “any time soon” if it leaves the European Union, Barack Obama claimed last night.
That's all the Tory papers on side then Dave. Well done.
Why the fuss? The US is putting its efforts into a trade treaty with the EU, a market of 500 million or so. A treaty with the UK is going to the back of the queue. What I find amazing is that anyone thought otherwise. It shows the unrealistic expectations of Leave.
I'd be surprised if Cameron even survived that long after a Remain win. The damage he's done to the party is astonishing, even before this afternoon's Sub/Dom session with Obama.
Like Gin, I wonder if he'll even last as long the Referendum.
I can understand the anger of those on the leave side but more than half David Cameron's MP's are for remain and he is fighting to win. The surprising thing to me is that leave have simply no easy to understand proposal to put to the voter despite the time they have had to agree on one. I do believe that it is very wrong for those in the remain camp to disrespect leave's views and vice versa but that's politics
I'd be surprised if Cameron even survived that long after a Remain win. The damage he's done to the party is astonishing, even before this afternoon's Sub/Dom session with Obama.
Like Gin, I wonder if he'll even last as long the Referendum.
The Tories need a strong Eurosceptic leader. Michael Fallon's comments today were "interesting":
I can't quite see any country in Europe joining us to defend the Falkland Islands...
I can see the UK becoming increasingly involved with Frontex and Europol using the threat of terrorism as the perfect excuse. Then the threat of Russia can be used as an excuse to join the energy union. Can the same people who dragged us into the European Arrest Warrant be trusted?
Leaving aside the rest, what exactly is the problem with joining an energy union? It's not as if the British Government's own record over the last 30 years on energy has been a shining example in how to secure reliable energy supplies and energy security for the long term.
There is a feeling most remainer MPs are merely gutless leavers kowtowing to the leadership. That seems unduly optimistic to me. More likely they played up their skepticism before. The membership seems more clearly skewed to leave, so a leaver direction and leader might make things easier, but the idea it would end the duvision seems as laughable to me as the idea this going to be a civil Tory contest.
Who is this wonderful "Leaver" that the Tory MPs are lining up to be their next leader, and not just next leader - the next leader is by default the next PM? The fact that it appears that Gove is the current frontrunner shows the problem - voters will run a mile from him.
Given a choice between Gove and Corbyn, voters will unhesitatingly - rightly - plump for Gove.
Would they though? You lay out reasons why, although he is presently disliked, Gove would be the rational choice in your opinion, and I am no fan of Corbyn at all...but I am far less confident people would be so unhesitating as you suggest in that scenario or similar.
Yes.
Gove has no more strident critic than me. But he has not made common cause with fascist governments. Or shared platforms with Holocaust deniers. Or endorsed the actions of murderers. Or failed to investigate serious and well-supported allegations of child molestation. Or been accused of tax evasion. Indeed (*grits teeth*) to his credit Gove has been proactive in acting against alliances with some very dubious regimes and in rooting out child sex offenders in education, although I know nothing about his position on tax avoidance.
There is no way Corbyn could win an election without a Mugabe style fraud operation. If Labour don't ditch him, the only way the Conservatives can lose the next election is if they elect Osborne leader. And even then it's only a 50/50 shot.
I object to being lectured by a foreign power, whilst the British PM stands idly by grinning like a w*nking chimp. Don't you?
And I have no problem with Remain fighting hard to win. But foolishly, I expected Cameron to do so with a bit more dignity, HMG giving a fair and balanced view of the benefits and downsides of membership.
Clearly I was mistaken. Like many party members, I won't fall for the same again. And I suspect that I won't be alone in quitting after the next leadership elections.
Some people argue BP is not really a British company any more but nevertheless Obama revealed his true colours to me over his vindictive attitude to them following the disaster in the Gulf of Mexico. The notion he has British interests at heart is laughable.
Not sure why anyone is in the least surprised at Obama. Every President from Nixon would have said the same and for Washington dealing with "Europe" is much easier than dealing with France, Germany, the U.K, Italy and the rest.
Once De Gaulle was out of the way, our fate was sealed and while we have some freedom of action, it is the freedom of the caged animal to walk freely within the confines of the cage. Washington has always wanted the UK in both NATO and the EU. On that basis we "enjoy" the support of the United States.
All today has done has brought home the reality of Britain's true place in the world since Suez and arguably before that.
Should Remain win, regrettably, it will at least be very interesting to see if the righteous anger of an at least significant minority of current Tories is manifested, or if the 'nowhere to go' gang will be proved correct. Will the LDs and Labour see an uptick, even though they are even more for Remain, on the basis it makes no difference and at least punishes the Tories? Will UKIP surge anew? Will they just stay at home and cause even Corbynite Labour to be in with a chance? Will it prove just talk?
It's not consolation, but it will be entertaining.
I object to being lectured by a foreign power, whilst the British PM stands idly by grinning like a w*nking chimp. Don't you?
And I have no problem with Remain fighting hard to win. But foolishly, I expected Cameron to do so with a bit more dignity, HMG giving a fair and balanced view of the benefits and downsides of membership.
Clearly I was mistaken. Like many party members, I won't fall for the same again. And I suspect that I won't be alone in quitting after the next leadership elections.
Well said. I just caught up on what Obama said and was completely shocked by the forcefulness of it.
I'd be posting my membership card back tonight if it wouldn't cost me my vote in the inevitable leadership election.
Was today the day the PM lost his party? The language used by him in the past few days has been completely unnecessary, he must know that it's going to infuriate the majority of his party members and activists - is it possible that Graham Brady gets enough letters for a vote of confidence in Cameron BEFORE the referendum?
Not sure why anyone is in the least surprised at Obama. Every President from Nixon would have said the same and for Washington dealing with "Europe" is much easier than dealing with France, Germany, the U.K, Italy and the rest.
Once De Gaulle was out of the way, our fate was sealed and while we have some freedom of action, it is the freedom of the caged animal to walk freely within the confines of the cage. Washington has always wanted the UK in both NATO and the EU. On that basis we "enjoy" the support of the United States.
All today has done has brought home the reality of Britain's true place in the world since Suez and arguably before that.
Quite so. This country is still living in the shadow of Suez, and the fall of Singapore.
One day it will change. I hope. But we have to vote for it.
I object to being lectured by a foreign power, whilst the British PM stands idly by grinning like a w*nking chimp. Don't you?
And I have no problem with Remain fighting hard to win. But foolishly, I expected Cameron to do so with a bit more dignity, HMG giving a fair and balanced view of the benefits and downsides of membership.
Clearly I was mistaken. Like many party members, I won't fall for the same again. And I suspect that I won't be alone in quitting after the next leadership elections.
Well said. I just caught up on what Obama said and was completely shocked by the forcefulness of it.
I'd be posting my membership card back tonight if it wouldn't cost me my vote in the inevitable leadership election.
Was today the day the PM lost his party? The language used by him in the past few days has been completely unnecessary, he must know that it's going to infuriate the majority of his party members and activists - is it possible that Graham Brady gets enough letters for a vote of confidence in Cameron BEFORE the referendum?
Hang in there. Quitting the party isn't any use to anyone.
I'd be surprised if Cameron even survived that long after a Remain win. The damage he's done to the party is astonishing, even before this afternoon's Sub/Dom session with Obama.
Like Gin, I wonder if he'll even last as long the Referendum.
The Tories need a strong Eurosceptic leader. Michael Fallon's comments today were "interesting":
I can't quite see any country in Europe joining us to defend the Falkland Islands...
I can see the UK becoming increasingly involved with Frontex and Europol using the threat of terrorism as the perfect excuse. Then the threat of Russia can be used as an excuse to join the energy union. Can the same people who dragged us into the European Arrest Warrant be trusted?
Fallon is yet another sell out hoping to use a Remain vote to accelerate this Government's europhile pro-integration agenda.
It is in the national interest for the Remain margin of victory to be as small as possible.
Just as it was obvious to all but the most deluded that Cameron was always going to advocate staying in the EU, so it is obvious that giving the UK beneficial trade deals post-Brexit is not going to be a priority for the US or any other major trading nation. This is realpolitik.
Of course it will be in the US's interests. It just isn't in their interest to admit it right now. That is realpolitik.
Not really - does the US need more access to the UK market than it has now enough to give the UK more access to the US market than it has now? No, it has bigger fish to fry. And the same applies to all other major trading nations. They'll do a deal if we give them what they want whilst not giving us what we want, but otherwise they won't.
We are the fifth largest fish in the world. Since the US isn't seeking to make a deal with itself, that makes us the fourth largest fish in the world for them to catch.
We are also very aligned culturally and economically. A deal will be valuable and easy to make.
It just doesn't make sense to say so.
What does the USA sell to the UK which they could not sell otherwise ?
That's not the question. The question is "is it in the interests of the USA to make a deal with their fourth largest trading partner, yes or no?"
We don't need a 'trade deal' with the US, this is a chimera. We trade very successfully with them now, on the export side. With Brexit we can remove barriers to US imports the EU currently imposes - that will reduce import costs and benefit UK households. This obsession with 'market access' misunderstands how international trade actually works and most crucially how it generates welfare gains and losses for countries.
The Mail & the Express preach to the converted, their obsessive right wing anti-EU rhetoric is part of the reason that Leave is having difficulty getting any traction with the left/liberal half of the electorate. You reap what you sow,
The reaction of the Brexiteers today has been joyous. Like the Nats, they thought they had the referendum won, without actually working out the answers to any of the hard questions, and expecting their opponents just to lie down.
@alexmassie: Statements of the bleedin' obvious are only "threats" if you dislike what they say. Obama today; Osborne during indyref etc etc.
I object to being lectured by a foreign power, whilst the British PM stands idly by grinning like a w*nking chimp. Don't you?
And I have no problem with Remain fighting hard to win. But foolishly, I expected Cameron to do so with a bit more dignity, HMG giving a fair and balanced view of the benefits and downsides of membership.
Clearly I was mistaken. Like many party members, I won't fall for the same again. And I suspect that I won't be alone in quitting after the next leadership elections.
Well said. I just caught up on what Obama said and was completely shocked by the forcefulness of it.
I'd be posting my membership card back tonight if it wouldn't cost me my vote in the inevitable leadership election.
Was today the day the PM lost his party? The language used by him in the past few days has been completely unnecessary, he must know that it's going to infuriate the majority of his party members and activists - is it possible that Graham Brady gets enough letters for a vote of confidence in Cameron BEFORE the referendum?
Do we know the numbers for the conservative membership ? When was the lowest ever recorded membership levels for the Tories,is it now ?
@NickThornsby: Amusing to see many of those who cheered on Tory ruthlessness in AV vote and 2015 election aggrieved now it's focused on staying in the EU.
Nice of the Guardian getting the 'Back of the Queue' line on the front page,I think this part of his speech will go down badly with most of the British general public.
Not sure why anyone is in the least surprised at Obama. Every President from Nixon would have said the same and for Washington dealing with "Europe" is much easier than dealing with France, Germany, the U.K, Italy and the rest.
Once De Gaulle was out of the way, our fate was sealed and while we have some freedom of action, it is the freedom of the caged animal to walk freely within the confines of the cage. Washington has always wanted the UK in both NATO and the EU. On that basis we "enjoy" the support of the United States.
All today has done has brought home the reality of Britain's true place in the world since Suez and arguably before that.
Quite so. This country is still living in the shadow of Suez, and the fall of Singapore.
One day it will change. I hope. But we have to vote for it.
Suez showed up the idea that Britain was no longer a global superpower, and could not get its way in the world on its own any more (or even with French support). So British foreign policy began to reflect that reality and decided that to pursue British interests it was necessary to do so within political frameworks that could genuinely offer global clout. Trying to turn the clock back to the fifties won't magically change the reality of what the country discovered back then.
Just as it was obvious to all but the most deluded that Cameron was always going to advocate staying in the EU, so it is obvious that giving the UK beneficial trade deals post-Brexit is not going to be a priority for the US or any other major trading nation. This is realpolitik.
Of course it will be in the US's interests. It just isn't in their interest to admit it right now. That is realpolitik.
Not really - does the US need more access to the UK market than it has now enough to give the UK more access to the US market than it has now? No, it has bigger fish to fry. And the same applies to all other major trading nations. They'll do a deal if we give them what they want whilst not giving us what we want, but otherwise they won't.
We are the fifth largest fish in the world. Since the US isn't seeking to make a deal with itself, that makes us the fourth largest fish in the world for them to catch.
We are also very aligned culturally and economically. A deal will be valuable and easy to make.
It just doesn't make sense to say so.
What does the USA sell to the UK which they could not sell otherwise ?
That's not the question. The question is "is it in the interests of the USA to make a deal with their fourth largest trading partner, yes or no?"
We don't need a 'trade deal' with the US, this is a chimera. We trade very successfully with them now, on the export side. With Brexit we can remove barriers to US imports the EU currently imposes - that will reduce import costs and benefit UK households. This obsession with 'market access' misunderstands how international trade actually works and most crucially how it generates welfare gains and losses for countries.
Well said. Outers should just ignore taunts "what deal will you have post Brexit?". No deal, just open up to tariff-free imports. If others countries want protection for their special interests let them have it. Only their consumers bear the costs.
The reaction of the Brexiteers today has been joyous. Like the Nats, they thought they had the referendum won, without actually working out the answers to any of the hard questions, and expecting their opponents just to lie down.
@alexmassie: Statements of the bleedin' obvious are only "threats" if you dislike what they say. Obama today; Osborne during indyref etc etc.
Nats, starting from a 37% point gap, thought they had the referendum won?
With complacency like that what would it be like if they tried?
The reaction of the Brexiteers today has been joyous. Like the Nats, they thought they had the referendum won, without actually working out the answers to any of the hard questions, and expecting their opponents just to lie down.
@alexmassie: Statements of the bleedin' obvious are only "threats" if you dislike what they say. Obama today; Osborne during indyref etc etc.
It's been joyous watching you post your 5001 post for remain when you pretended to be neutral - lol
@NickThornsby: Amusing to see many of those who cheered on Tory ruthlessness in AV vote and 2015 election aggrieved now it's focused on staying in the EU.
I notice you omit the Scottish Indy ref. In fact all that's happened is that Cameron decided he wouldn't be caught napping as he did in 2014 where only some late interventions saved the day. With two months to go I think this is far from won for the Remainers - at the very least talk of a comfortable victory is misplaced.
I object to being lectured by a foreign power, whilst the British PM stands idly by grinning like a w*nking chimp. Don't you?
And I have no problem with Remain fighting hard to win. But foolishly, I expected Cameron to do so with a bit more dignity, HMG giving a fair and balanced view of the benefits and downsides of membership.
Clearly I was mistaken. Like many party members, I won't fall for the same again. And I suspect that I won't be alone in quitting after the next leadership elections.
Well said. I just caught up on what Obama said and was completely shocked by the forcefulness of it.
I'd be posting my membership card back tonight if it wouldn't cost me my vote in the inevitable leadership election.
Was today the day the PM lost his party? The language used by him in the past few days has been completely unnecessary, he must know that it's going to infuriate the majority of his party members and activists - is it possible that Graham Brady gets enough letters for a vote of confidence in Cameron BEFORE the referendum?
Do we know the numbers for the conservative membership ? When was the lowest ever recorded membership levels for the Tories,is it now ?
Probably going down by a few over the next couple of months I'd think!!
Somewhere around 100k-120k at the last election but accurate figures hard to come by, as collated locally in the constituencies rather than at CCHQ.
The reaction of the Brexiteers today has been joyous. Like the Nats, they thought they had the referendum won, without actually working out the answers to any of the hard questions, and expecting their opponents just to lie down.
@alexmassie: Statements of the bleedin' obvious are only "threats" if you dislike what they say. Obama today; Osborne during indyref etc etc.
Loathsome traitors, is what you are. Cheering the public humiliation of our proud country. A nauseating spectacle, which will not be forgotten.
Wasn't our scott on the fence for the EU referendum - laughable.
I object to being lectured by a foreign power, whilst the British PM stands idly by grinning like a w*nking chimp. Don't you?
And I have no problem with Remain fighting hard to win. But foolishly, I expected Cameron to do so with a bit more dignity, HMG giving a fair and balanced view of the benefits and downsides of membership.
Clearly I was mistaken. Like many party members, I won't fall for the same again. And I suspect that I won't be alone in quitting after the next leadership elections.
Well said. I just caught up on what Obama said and was completely shocked by the forcefulness of it.
I'd be posting my membership card back tonight if it wouldn't cost me my vote in the inevitable leadership election.
Was today the day the PM lost his party? The language used by him in the past few days has been completely unnecessary, he must know that it's going to infuriate the majority of his party members and activists - is it possible that Graham Brady gets enough letters for a vote of confidence in Cameron BEFORE the referendum?
Do we know the numbers for the conservative membership ? When was the lowest ever recorded membership levels for the Tories,is it now ?
Probably going down by a few over the next couple of months I'd think!!
Somewhere around 100k-120k at the last election but accurate figures hard to come by, as collated locally in the constituencies rather than at CCHQ.
@NickThornsby: Amusing to see many of those who cheered on Tory ruthlessness in AV vote and 2015 election aggrieved now it's focused on staying in the EU.
I notice you omit the Scottish Indy ref. In fact all that's happened is that Cameron decided he wouldn't be caught napping as he did in 2014 where only some late interventions saved the day. With two months to go I think this is far from won for the Remainers - at the very least talk of a comfortable victory is misplaced.
Well of course. There was no "Tory ruthlessness" in the Scottish referendum because in the most part, on the advice of the hopelessly out-of-touch Scottish Labour leadership, they remained out of it.
The indepenent front page headline will NOT go down well with the British public,we might be a shit hole according the remain camp but I know one thing,the british people don't like threats.
The reaction of the Brexiteers today has been joyous. Like the Nats, they thought they had the referendum won, without actually working out the answers to any of the hard questions, and expecting their opponents just to lie down.
@alexmassie: Statements of the bleedin' obvious are only "threats" if you dislike what they say. Obama today; Osborne during indyref etc etc.
Loathsome traitors, is what you are. Cheering the public humiliation of our proud country. A nauseating spectacle, which will not be forgotten.
Oh this gets funnier and funnier. The anger. The pompousness. The futility.
The reaction of the Brexiteers today has been joyous. Like the Nats, they thought they had the referendum won, without actually working out the answers to any of the hard questions, and expecting their opponents just to lie down.
@alexmassie: Statements of the bleedin' obvious are only "threats" if you dislike what they say. Obama today; Osborne during indyref etc etc.
Loathsome traitors, is what you are. Cheering the public humiliation of our proud country. A nauseating spectacle, which will not be forgotten.
Reading PB is like the run up to the Scottish Independence vote all over again but without the vegetable insults.
I object to being lectured by a foreign power, whilst the British PM stands idly by grinning like a w*nking chimp. Don't you?
And I have no problem with Remain fighting hard to win. But foolishly, I expected Cameron to do so with a bit more dignity, HMG giving a fair and balanced view of the benefits and downsides of membership.
Clearly I was mistaken. Like many party members, I won't fall for the same again. And I suspect that I won't be alone in quitting after the next leadership elections.
Well said. I just caught up on what Obama said and was completely shocked by the forcefulness of it.
I'd be posting my membership card back tonight if it wouldn't cost me my vote in the inevitable leadership election.
Was today the day the PM lost his party? The language used by him in the past few days has been completely unnecessary, he must know that it's going to infuriate the majority of his party members and activists - is it possible that Graham Brady gets enough letters for a vote of confidence in Cameron BEFORE the referendum?
Do we know the numbers for the conservative membership ? When was the lowest ever recorded membership levels for the Tories,is it now ?
Probably going down by a few over the next couple of months I'd think!!
Somewhere around 100k-120k at the last election but accurate figures hard to come by, as collated locally in the constituencies rather than at CCHQ.
That low - wow
It would be interesting if any party insiders here could comment on what's happened to numbers in the past year - I'd guess up a bit since the election, but those who joined last May will be getting requests for £25 more any day now.
From a betting point of view, Shadsy's 2/1 on the PM not lasting this year must have some value tonight. Even some Remain PMs will be pissed off at the way he's dealt with the referendum.
The reaction of the Brexiteers today has been joyous. Like the Nats, they thought they had the referendum won, without actually working out the answers to any of the hard questions, and expecting their opponents just to lie down.
@alexmassie: Statements of the bleedin' obvious are only "threats" if you dislike what they say. Obama today; Osborne during indyref etc etc.
Loathsome traitors, is what you are. Cheering the public humiliation of our proud country. A nauseating spectacle, which will not be forgotten.
Oh this gets funnier and funnier. The anger. The pompousness. The futility.
On the contrary, I'm enjoying my metamorphosis into a UK Cybernat. It's oddly thrilling. The sense of complete grievance, fired by patriotism. The determination to seek revenge.
I now entirely understand the Nat mindset. It's a game, but it's also great great fun. And the lust for vengeance is STRONG and sincere. We will get our payback.
I'd be surprised if Cameron even survived that long after a Remain win. The damage he's done to the party is astonishing, even before this afternoon's Sub/Dom session with Obama.
Like Gin, I wonder if he'll even last as long the Referendum.
The Tories need a strong Eurosceptic leader. Michael Fallon's comments today were "interesting":
I can't quite see any country in Europe joining us to defend the Falkland Islands...
I can see the UK becoming increasingly involved with Frontex and Europol using the threat of terrorism as the perfect excuse. Then the threat of Russia can be used as an excuse to join the energy union. Can the same people who dragged us into the European Arrest Warrant be trusted?
Leaving aside the rest, what exactly is the problem with joining an energy union? It's not as if the British Government's own record over the last 30 years on energy has been a shining example in how to secure reliable energy supplies and energy security for the long term.
Actually we have done extremely well compared to Europe. Almost none of our energy supply comes from dodgy parts of the world like Russia. Although we import gas now that is almost entirely from Norway. The rest of the EU on the other hand is very much a hostage to imported energy from places exactly like Russia.
But they did get their payback, in spades. The Nats now own Scotland. And they destroyed Scottish Labour, and crippled UK Labour. And have significant leverage in Westminster.
But instead of the only thing they ever craved, the single thing they have got is enough rope to hang themselves, which they seem intent on doing.
I can't see a way for the REMAIN minority in the Tory party to avoid this civil war, a war they will find hard to win.
Which is all jolly good news for Labour.
very em= Except the remainers currently hold all the positions of power. If they purge the "losers', what are they going to do? Defecting to UKIP will have been shown to be futile.
lol. You can't purge an entire party. The local associations and the members do the MP selecting, and the canvassing, and all the rest of it.
Sure there could be a purge, leaving just Theresa May, Geo Osborne and a surprisingly europhile budgie, in an otherwise very empty room.
The Tory party membership is on its last legs though....
Front pages not looking good for the PM, with even the more liberal papers leading with Obama's "Back of the queue" comment - which as others have said is definitely a British rather than an American expression. The latter wait in lines not queues.
The reaction of the Brexiteers today has been joyous. Like the Nats, they thought they had the referendum won, without actually working out the answers to any of the hard questions, and expecting their opponents just to lie down.
@alexmassie: Statements of the bleedin' obvious are only "threats" if you dislike what they say. Obama today; Osborne during indyref etc etc.
Loathsome traitors, is what you are. Cheering the public humiliation of our proud country. A nauseating spectacle, which will not be forgotten.
Oh this gets funnier and funnier. The anger. The pompousness. The futility.
On the contrary, I'm enjoying my metamorphosis into a UK Cybernat. It's oddly thrilling. The sense of complete grievance, fired by patriotism. The determination to seek revenge.
I now entirely understand the Nat mindset. It's a game, but it's also great great fun. And the lust for vengeance is STRONG and sincere. We will get our payback.
Enjoy! We're all enjoying it in our own ways. (Perhaps not all).
They are really unwise to keep parroting this "back of the queue" shit. No doubt they focus-grouped the phrase before asking Obama to use it, but I reckon it is too strong. We shall see.
Newsnight focus grouped it and it was, to use a Obama phrase, a slam dunk. Boris came across as not very convinced in his denial and looking, frankly, rather unhappy and shifty. Leave must be utterly gutted tonight.
They are really unwise to keep parroting this "back of the queue" shit. No doubt they focus-grouped the phrase before asking Obama to use it, but I reckon it is too strong. We shall see.
Newsnight focus grouped it and it was, to use a Obama phrase, a slam dunk. Boris came across as not very convinced in his denial and looking, frankly, rather unhappy and shifty. Leave must be utterly gutted tonight.
Comments
#GetCameronOut
Given a choice between Gove and somebody who knows how to fill out a tax form and does not have to spend all his/her time explaining their links to far right groups and the shadier members of Islington Labour Party, voters will unhesitatingly - rightly - plump for the latter.
This is where the truly cretinous delusion of Labour that they could vote for somebody who made them feel good about themselves because they were going to get another whipping in 2020 really comes home to roost. If Yvette Cooper were leading the Labour Party right now, any bet on an election in 2017 followed by a Labour government would be free money.
As ye sow, so shall ye reap.
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/723601725391777796
Surely the Tory Party can't continue to allow Cameron to stay in office much longer?
Like Gin, I wonder if he'll even last as long the Referendum.
Tick.Tock. Tick.Tock.
I haven't consulted a junior doctor about it, but I fear may be getting worse.
But in any case I'll wait for the audiobook.
Whether Leavers like it or not, the fact is that Obama has intervened to support and echo the arguments of the official UK govt policy.
"Britain will never go to war without its European allies again, Defence Secretary claims - but denies backing an EU army"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3552388/Britain-never-war-without-European-allies-Defence-Secretary-claims-denies-backing-EU-army.html
I can't quite see any country in Europe joining us to defend the Falkland Islands...
I can see the UK becoming increasingly involved with Frontex and Europol using the threat of terrorism as the perfect excuse. Then the threat of Russia can be used as an excuse to join the energy union. Can the same people who dragged us into the European Arrest Warrant be trusted?
The Mail - The gospel according to Obama: President preaches at the British people and issues extraordinary warning that 'the UK will be at the back of the queue' for trade deals with America if it leaves the EU
The Telegraph - Britain would go “to the back of the queue” and would not be able to strike a trade deal with America “any time soon” if it leaves the European Union, Barack Obama claimed last night.
That's all the Tory papers on side then Dave. Well done.
http://tinyurl.com/z5dr7bc
Gove has no more strident critic than me. But he has not made common cause with fascist governments. Or shared platforms with Holocaust deniers. Or endorsed the actions of murderers. Or failed to investigate serious and well-supported allegations of child molestation. Or been accused of tax evasion. Indeed (*grits teeth*) to his credit Gove has been proactive in acting against alliances with some very dubious regimes and in rooting out child sex offenders in education, although I know nothing about his position on tax avoidance.
There is no way Corbyn could win an election without a Mugabe style fraud operation. If Labour don't ditch him, the only way the Conservatives can lose the next election is if they elect Osborne leader. And even then it's only a 50/50 shot.
And I have no problem with Remain fighting hard to win. But foolishly, I expected Cameron to do so with a bit more dignity, HMG giving a fair and balanced view of the benefits and downsides of membership.
Clearly I was mistaken. Like many party members, I won't fall for the same again. And I suspect that I won't be alone in quitting after the next leadership elections.
Not sure why anyone is in the least surprised at Obama. Every President from Nixon would have said the same and for Washington dealing with "Europe" is much easier than dealing with France, Germany, the U.K, Italy and the rest.
Once De Gaulle was out of the way, our fate was sealed and while we have some freedom of action, it is the freedom of the caged animal to walk freely within the confines of the cage. Washington has always wanted the UK in both NATO and the EU. On that basis we "enjoy" the support of the United States.
All today has done has brought home the reality of Britain's true place in the world since Suez and arguably before that.
It's not consolation, but it will be entertaining.
I'd be posting my membership card back tonight if it wouldn't cost me my vote in the inevitable leadership election.
Was today the day the PM lost his party? The language used by him in the past few days has been completely unnecessary, he must know that it's going to infuriate the majority of his party members and activists - is it possible that Graham Brady gets enough letters for a vote of confidence in Cameron BEFORE the referendum?
One day it will change. I hope. But we have to vote for it.
It is in the national interest for the Remain margin of victory to be as small as possible.
However it is just one poll.
@alexmassie: Statements of the bleedin' obvious are only "threats" if you dislike what they say. Obama today; Osborne during indyref etc etc.
Might be a bit optimistic !
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/723618987960053760
Outers should just ignore taunts "what deal will you have post Brexit?". No deal, just open up to tariff-free imports. If others countries want protection for their special interests let them have it. Only their consumers bear the costs.
With complacency like that what would it be like if they tried?
Somewhere around 100k-120k at the last election but accurate figures hard to come by, as collated locally in the constituencies rather than at CCHQ.
His comments today were tragic.
https://twitter.com/suttonnick/status/723621665884778496
From a betting point of view, Shadsy's 2/1 on the PM not lasting this year must have some value tonight. Even some Remain PMs will be pissed off at the way he's dealt with the referendum.
Clearly the Worldwide Global Conspiracy was a high point in the Brexit campaign.
You came out for remain while you was telling us you were neutral - 5001 remain post later - lol
https://twitter.com/scottynational/status/723181837820919810
Special, my @rse.
https://twitter.com/George_Osborne/status/723576747044810753
https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/678877529562853376
Payback's a bitch...
@DPJHodges: Dominic Raab says Barack Obama's comments "don't reflect US trade policy". Dominic Raab or Barack Obama on US trade policy. Your choice.
1) I can't see an American President doing that for other countries
2) Shows Cameron's and The UK influence on America and The Special Relationship
Unlikely, but worth asking
It was a largely irrelevant, apocalyptically bad for Remain, intervention
Glad we cleared that up
you decide
This pair think they are the UK. Time to get rid.
I suspect I'll enrage and delight Leavers in equal measure.
"now David don't swallow all at once I like it last a while ......"