Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Brexiteers, Juncker’s fifth columnists?

13567

Comments

  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,530
    I'm not sure how I should be classed now. Am I still a remainer (because that was how I voted), or a leaver because I have accepted the result?

    Or am I to be equally despised by both sides as a turncoat? :)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Anyone seen ads for "The Brit Method"/Britmoneymethod?

    Just got diverted there. Might have just clicked an ad by mistake.
  • I'm not sure how I should be classed now. Am I still a remainer (because that was how I voted), or a leaver because I have accepted the result?

    Or am I to be equally despised by both sides as a turncoat? :)

    You're a realist.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,530

    Off-topic:

    My new PC arrived and I *just* managed to get it installed before the little 'uns nap finished.

    My God, it's fast. And a 4K screen has amazing resolution.

    Graphics cards have come on a long way in the last few years.

    Thanks to everyone who helped me make my choice. More than £2K down (including monitor), but much fun still to come!

    What monitor did you get?
    This one:
    http://aoc-europe.com/en/products/u2879vf

    The idea is for us to get a 'better' one when Mrs J upgrades her gaming PC next year.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547
    edited October 2016

    There is another thing.

    If we successfully Brexit, the old conflation that Europe = EU is broken. Gradually, we move into a world of Europes plural, in which a people can democratically decide how tight they want to couple with the German monetary beast.

    I am not one predicting Nexit or Italexit or Frexit. The EU will stagger on. But longer term - a generation perhaps - our example could see a real loosening around the edges and a final nail in the coffin of the 1950s era "ever closer union".

    We do need statesmen of imagination though. Not sure we've got that.

    If the EU collapses, which is more than a REMOTE possibility, the UK will be in a good position. It's already out and can set the agenda on a new European order. If, as is more likely, the EU carries on, the UK will be in a very frustrating position. There will - literally - be no alternative to the EU. The UK will variously aim to ignore the EU, resist it, work around it, undermine it and co-opt it. These tactics will cancel each other out. The UK will find it difficult to ally with third countries because their more important relationship is with the EU too. Their relationship with the UK will be through the prism of their primary relationship with the EU.

  • Who votes on the Select Committee chairs? Is it all MPs?
  • SeanT said:

    TGOHF said:

    One wonders how Japan manages to sell cars in the EU without getting laws faxed through to them and without courts telling them who they can and can't deport.

    Its startling that the Japs can do this I tells you.

    They do it by building them in the UK, which is inside the EU, so they can export to Sicily from Sunderland without hassle.
    I'm a Leave voter, but I understand this. It's why Soft Brexit will, I predict, turn out to be the only option. Economics will prevail.
    Not quite true. Nissan Sunderland started being built in 1984, 9 years before the EU existed.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Mr. Topping, point of order: I was one of those irked by Obama's cretinous comment. I also haven't signed up anyone as spokesman on my behalf regarding whether I want a firm and fruity departure or a wet lettuce departure.

    People do have very variant views, we're not dealing with two monolithic perspectives.

    What flavour would you like?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    SeanT said:

    One for Francis

    "Immigrants in 20s put in Kent schools with pupils as young as 11"

    http://www.kentonline.co.uk/canterbury/news/immigrants-in-their-20s-put-25379/

    This is where ludicrous liberal hand-wringing gets you. Imagine you had an 11 year old daughter in that school.

    Kent council is Conservative controlled with UKIP as the second party.
  • FF43 said:

    There is another thing.

    If we successfully Brexit, the old conflation that Europe = EU is broken. Gradually, we move into a world of Europes plural, in which a people can democratically decide how tight they want to couple with the German monetary beast.

    I am not one predicting Nexit or Italexit or Frexit. The EU will stagger on. But longer term - a generation perhaps - our example could see a real loosening around the edges and a final nail in the coffin of the 1950s era "ever closer union".

    We do need statesmen of imagination though. Not sure we've got that.

    If the EU collapses, which is more than a REMOTE possibility, the UK will be in a good position. It's already out and can set the agenda on a new European order. If, as is more likely, the EU carries on, the UK will be in a very frustrating position. There will - literally - be no alternative to the EU. The UK will variously aim to ignore the EU, resist it, work around it, undermine it and co-opt it. These tactics will cancel each other out. The UK will find it difficult to ally with third countries because their more important relationship is with the EU too. Their relationship with the UK will be via the prism of the EU.
    We also avoid having to fund the banking collapse (apart from Eire) and can shift most overseas aid into the EU when it goes belly up.
  • Indigo said:

    Jobabob said:

    Indigo said:

    The problem we are faced with is that leave's meaning was unclear and inconsistent. As was pointed out at the time.

    The problem was Remain had no answer to immigration. That is what killed remain. There were many possible answers remain could have had on the subject, but Cameron's posturing on the subject over the preceding five years made them all politically untenable.
    I think that's right.

    But it also shows that immigration is key, and whatever deal is done, we must have much stronger immigration controls.

    I don't particularly like that, but it's wat won it.
    You could just as easily infer that a majority of the country are pro-immigration.

    Remain + globalising Hannanite Leavers = comfortable majority
    Except its b*llocks

    http://www.bsa.natcen.ac.uk/latest-report/british-social-attitudes-31/immigration/introduction.aspx

    In 2013, 77 per cent of people want immigration reduced “a little” or “a lot”, with 56 per cent wanting a large reduction. Both figures are up sharply on 1995
    The issue is it is delusional to try to split Leavers into two camps (soft and hard) while treating Remainers as a homogenous group that you can add the soft Brexiteers to. Remainers were not homogenous.

    There are Remainers who really see themselves as European and want Europe-max (euro, Schengen etc)

    There are people who trust what their party elite recommend and would go along with whatever is suggested.

    There are people who saw the EU as deeply flawed and wanted great changes but were too afraid of what exit would mean so voted Remain.

    The latter group may decide that if we're going to exit we may as well exit properly and align more with the hard Brexiteers.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Topping, chocolate.

    We must be outside the customs union. I think most other things could be a matter of agreement (changing free movement to freedom of movement for those with a seasonal harvest job [strictly time-limited] or those with swanky high paid jobs, for example).

    However, if the EU insists on a Draconian deal or none, we should go for none.
  • FF43 said:

    There is another thing.

    If we successfully Brexit, the old conflation that Europe = EU is broken. Gradually, we move into a world of Europes plural, in which a people can democratically decide how tight they want to couple with the German monetary beast.

    I am not one predicting Nexit or Italexit or Frexit. The EU will stagger on. But longer term - a generation perhaps - our example could see a real loosening around the edges and a final nail in the coffin of the 1950s era "ever closer union".

    We do need statesmen of imagination though. Not sure we've got that.

    If the EU collapses, which is more than a REMOTE possibility, the UK will be in a good position. It's already out and can set the agenda on a new European order. If, as is more likely, the EU carries on, the UK will be in a very frustrating position. There will - literally - be no alternative to the EU. The UK will variously aim to ignore the EU, resist it, work around it, undermine it and co-opt it. These tactics will cancel each other out. The UK will find it difficult to ally with third countries because their more important relationship is with the EU too. Their relationship with the UK will be through the prism of their primary relationship with the EU.

    How do you think Japan and Canada survive not being members of China and the USA respectively? Is Japan able to make its own alliances despite being next to a large neighbour?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    FF43 said:

    There is another thing.

    If we successfully Brexit, the old conflation that Europe = EU is broken. Gradually, we move into a world of Europes plural, in which a people can democratically decide how tight they want to couple with the German monetary beast.

    I am not one predicting Nexit or Italexit or Frexit. The EU will stagger on. But longer term - a generation perhaps - our example could see a real loosening around the edges and a final nail in the coffin of the 1950s era "ever closer union".

    We do need statesmen of imagination though. Not sure we've got that.

    If the EU collapses, which is more than a REMOTE possibility, the UK will be in a good position. It's already out and can set the agenda on a new European order. If, as is more likely, the EU carries on, the UK will be in a very frustrating position. There will - literally - be no alternative to the EU. The UK will variously aim to ignore the EU, resist it, work around it, undermine it and co-opt it. These tactics will cancel each other out. The UK will find it difficult to ally with third countries because their more important relationship is with the EU too. Their relationship with the UK will be through the prism of their primary relationship with the EU.

    Oh I agree. I wouldn't have started from here.
    But now that we're heading out we need to think about our future position in Europe.

    Isolationalism is not an option either.
  • Mr. Topping, chocolate.

    We must be outside the customs union. I think most other things could be a matter of agreement (changing free movement to freedom of movement for those with a seasonal harvest job [strictly time-limited] or those with swanky high paid jobs, for example).

    However, if the EU insists on a Draconian deal or none, we should go for none.

    There is zero point in exiting but remaining in the customs union. The customs union has to be history or the whole thing was pointless.
  • Who votes on the Select Committee chairs? Is it all MPs?

    AFAIK the Chairman is designated from a particular party and then MPs have a free vote.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    Just been making herself a cup of tea and caught on the wireless that Chuck Berry is 90 today. Damnation that man has got a set of genes. When he finally pops his clogs the quacks ought be looking good and hard to see how he did it.

    On more prosaic matters, congratulations to Mr. Jessup on his new machine. What are you going to use it for, old chap? Elite Dangerous is a game that really does benefit from a top end graphics card but gets very boring after a few months.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    "Not quite true. Nissan Sunderland started being built in 1984, 9 years before the EU existed."

    So 1993? When did we join? I don't remember that happening.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    edited October 2016
    CD13 said:

    "Not quite true. Nissan Sunderland started being built in 1984, 9 years before the EU existed."

    So 1993? When did we join? I don't remember that happening.

    By virtue of Maastricht. Though the point is disingenuous, we were in the EEC in 1984.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Mr. Topping, chocolate.

    We must be outside the customs union. I think most other things could be a matter of agreement (changing free movement to freedom of movement for those with a seasonal harvest job [strictly time-limited] or those with swanky high paid jobs, for example).

    However, if the EU insists on a Draconian deal or none, we should go for none.

    The return of proper duty free :o ?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited October 2016

    FF43 said:

    There is another thing.

    If we successfully Brexit, the old conflation that Europe = EU is broken. Gradually, we move into a world of Europes plural, in which a people can democratically decide how tight they want to couple with the German monetary beast.

    I am not one predicting Nexit or Italexit or Frexit. The EU will stagger on. But longer term - a generation perhaps - our example could see a real loosening around the edges and a final nail in the coffin of the 1950s era "ever closer union".

    We do need statesmen of imagination though. Not sure we've got that.

    If the EU collapses, which is more than a REMOTE possibility, the UK will be in a good position. It's already out and can set the agenda on a new European order. If, as is more likely, the EU carries on, the UK will be in a very frustrating position. There will - literally - be no alternative to the EU. The UK will variously aim to ignore the EU, resist it, work around it, undermine it and co-opt it. These tactics will cancel each other out. The UK will find it difficult to ally with third countries because their more important relationship is with the EU too. Their relationship with the UK will be through the prism of their primary relationship with the EU.

    How do you think Japan and Canada survive not being members of China and the USA respectively? Is Japan able to make its own alliances despite being next to a large neighbour?
    Deleted. I meant to say these are not fair comparisons because there is no analogy for the EU in North America or East Asia.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    edited October 2016
    Pew Research
    "Voter fraud, perceptions and political spin: Research roundup" - from @journoresourceJournalist's Resource https://t.co/Lmn4xVqzfp https://t.co/hXm3Pr9rnX

    "Fears about electoral fraud resonate broadly. A September 2016 Washington Post-ABC News poll found that 46 percent of registered voters believe it happens “often.” These voters are often divided along party lines. Among Trump supporters, that number rises to 69 percent; it is 28 percent among supporters of the Democratic nominee, Hillary Clinton. An August 2016 Gallup poll found a similar split. Overall, faith in fair elections appears to be slipping: Since 2004, expectations that presidential elections will be tallied accurately have dropped from about 70 percent to 63 percent, according to the Washington Post-ABC News poll.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Pulpstar, oh noes!
  • SeanT said:

    FF43 said:

    There is another thing.

    If we successfully Brexit, the old conflation that Europe = EU is broken. Gradually, we move into a world of Europes plural, in which a people can democratically decide how tight they want to couple with the German monetary beast.

    I am not one predicting Nexit or Italexit or Frexit. The EU will stagger on. But longer term - a generation perhaps - our example could see a real loosening around the edges and a final nail in the coffin of the 1950s era "ever closer union".

    We do need statesmen of imagination though. Not sure we've got that.

    If the EU collapses, which is more than a REMOTE possibility, the UK will be in a good position. It's already out and can set the agenda on a new European order. If, as is more likely, the EU carries on, the UK will be in a very frustrating position. There will - literally - be no alternative to the EU. The UK will variously aim to ignore the EU, resist it, work around it, undermine it and co-opt it. These tactics will cancel each other out. The UK will find it difficult to ally with third countries because their more important relationship is with the EU too. Their relationship with the UK will be through the prism of their primary relationship with the EU.

    How do you think Japan and Canada survive not being members of China and the USA respectively? Is Japan able to make its own alliances despite being next to a large neighbour?
    Or Singapore. Or Norway. Or Korea. Or Taiwan. Or.....
    166 members of the UN are non-EU nations.

    "And by "country" we mean a sovereign state that is a member of the UN in its own right."
    - Richard Osman, Pointless
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,530

    Just been making herself a cup of tea and caught on the wireless that Chuck Berry is 90 today. Damnation that man has got a set of genes. When he finally pops his clogs the quacks ought be looking good and hard to see how he did it.

    On more prosaic matters, congratulations to Mr. Jessup on his new machine. What are you going to use it for, old chap? Elite Dangerous is a game that really does benefit from a top end graphics card but gets very boring after a few months.

    Elite, yes. I'm not bored of it yet.

    And the superb Planet Coaster. It has one of the best alphas I've ever seen.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QbcRY8rPdM

    Mrs J will use it for Fallout 4 (as one of us has to look after the lttle 'un, we're rarely in the study at the same time)

    Basically, the money I go from the sad sale of ARM was burning a hole in my pocket. I got permission to get rid of a small part of it. :)

    I don't know if you saw this earlier, I thought it might be of interest to you:
    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v38/n20/bernard-porter/send-more-blondes
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    Jobabob said:

    Scott_P said:

    @AlbertoNardelli: US Chamber of Commerce pretty much making the case for the softest of Brexits. That said, US firms in UK are worth $590bn, employ 1.2m

    A Clinton victory will increase the pressure to make Brexit softer than a post coital Johnson
    Pressure from a US president worked well last time? And that was one who's popular.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547
    edited October 2016
    @Philip_Thompson How do you think Japan and Canada survive not being members of China and the USA respectively? Is Japan able to make its own alliances despite being next to a large neighbour?

    ---

    Of course we will survive. Japan doesn't have a good relationship with China and doesn't really know what to do about it. Canada and the US is better example for us perhaps, but its an unequal relationship. Do we want an unequal relationship with the EU?

    It keeps coming back to what we want as country. We have never answered that question properly. Brexit doesn't resolve anything.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    Bit desperate to trumpet the miniscule amount of supposed regretful Leavers. Leave won. Of course more people no regret it. Compare it to the amount of regretful 'No' voters in Scotland.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401

    Just been making herself a cup of tea and caught on the wireless that Chuck Berry is 90 today. Damnation that man has got a set of genes. When he finally pops his clogs the quacks ought be looking good and hard to see how he did it.

    [snip].

    Perhaps we ought to wait until 2016 is over before tempting fate there.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    SeanT said:

    Mr. Topping, chocolate.

    We must be outside the customs union. I think most other things could be a matter of agreement (changing free movement to freedom of movement for those with a seasonal harvest job [strictly time-limited] or those with swanky high paid jobs, for example).

    However, if the EU insists on a Draconian deal or none, we should go for none.

    There is zero point in exiting but remaining in the customs union. The customs union has to be history or the whole thing was pointless.
    "The EEA Agreement does not cover the EU common agriculture and fisheries policies, the customs union, the common trade policy, the common foreign and security policy, justice and home affairs or the monetary union."
    The difference between the EEA the Customs Union has been discussed on here many times. Sometimes I think certain posters have a Write Only Policy. (I shall henceforce refer to those who continue to traffic in the debunked as WOPs.)
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    How the Leavers may have etc etc…!

    But only if the UK, at some future point in time learns to love the EU and decides to re-join.

    Troubles is the majority don’t like the EU's overweening interference and centralised power grabs as is, why would they wish to after another decade of ever closer union?

  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @david_herdson

    'Pressure from a US president worked well last time? And that was one who's popular.'

    Leave couldn't believe their luck.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Just been making herself a cup of tea and caught on the wireless that Chuck Berry is 90 today. Damnation that man has got a set of genes. When he finally pops his clogs the quacks ought be looking good and hard to see how he did it.

    Keith Richards also should be examined.

  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    How the Leavers may have etc etc…!

    But only if the UK, at some future point in time learns to love the EU and decides to re-join.

    Troubles is the majority don’t like the EU's overweening interference and centralised power grabs as is, why would they wish to after another decade of ever closer union?

    Same reasons that the UK set up EFTA in 1960? 5-10 years later it threw in the towel and along with Denmark and Ireland applied to join the EEC, including assent to the words Ever Closer Union in the Treaty of Rome 1957.
  • Scott_P said:
    Is there ANY decision this Prime Minister won't put off until next year?
  • How the Leavers may have etc etc…!

    But only if the UK, at some future point in time learns to love the EU and decides to re-join.

    Troubles is the majority don’t like the EU's overweening interference and centralised power grabs as is, why would they wish to after another decade of ever closer union?

    Same reasons that the UK set up EFTA in 1960? 5-10 years later it threw in the towel and along with Denmark and Ireland applied to join the EEC, including assent to the words Ever Closer Union in the Treaty of Rome 1957.
    The Treaty of Rome - such a 1950s throwback!

    Brexit will propel the UK into the 21st century!
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited October 2016
    Scott_P said:
    Oh for goodness sakes its never getting built is it. TMay is turning out to be a not very good PM.She dithers too much.
  • Scott_P said:
    Oh FFS..desk head thud thud thud thud thud...
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    How the Leavers may have etc etc…!

    But only if the UK, at some future point in time learns to love the EU and decides to re-join.

    Troubles is the majority don’t like the EU's overweening interference and centralised power grabs as is, why would they wish to after another decade of ever closer union?

    Same reasons that the UK set up EFTA in 1960? 5-10 years later it threw in the towel and along with Denmark and Ireland applied to join the EEC, including assent to the words Ever Closer Union in the Treaty of Rome 1957.
    The Treaty of Rome - such a 1950s throwback!

    Brexit will propel the UK into the 21st century!
    UKIP want to go back to 1957! (ref.: P.Eye cover).
  • I'm not sure how I should be classed now. Am I still a remainer (because that was how I voted), or a leaver because I have accepted the result?

    Or am I to be equally despised by both sides as a turncoat? :)

    Depends on whether or not you Be LEAVE, surely :)
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    I winced watching this. This guy is seriously out of his depth along with Howard Dean

    The more questions they get, the more squirming I see

    https://youtu.be/asLhRnWxAbY
  • Jonathan said:
    Great PR move by them with the desired affect. Miles is very good at PR stuff.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    nunu said:

    Scott_P said:
    Oh for goodness sakes its never getting built is it. TMay is turning out to be a not very good PM.She dithers too much.
    Except when

    The Chinese say jump
    She says "How high"
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/pickardje/status/788402690229428224

    @JGForsyth: If ministers aren’t allowed 2 criticise the government’s decision making process on runways, presumably they can’t back any judicial review?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited October 2016
    nunu said:

    Scott_P said:
    Oh for goodness sakes its never getting built is it. TMay is turning out to be a not very good PM.She dithers too much.
    Perhaps she is a Macavity coward.
    Even though we all think Heathrow would pass with Labour's support, she's just not willing to risk a Commons defeat (yet).

    On the face of it, this seems barking, and has wider implications at this particular febrile moment, than airport capacity alone.

    Edit: perhaps she's waiting for post election when she has a proper majority.

    God who knows. It's insane.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Limp-wristed bed-wettery.

    Just have the new bloody runway and be done with it. Or don't. But make a decision. This has been put off probably since Blair's time.
  • How the Leavers may have etc etc…!

    But only if the UK, at some future point in time learns to love the EU and decides to re-join.

    Troubles is the majority don’t like the EU's overweening interference and centralised power grabs as is, why would they wish to after another decade of ever closer union?

    Same reasons that the UK set up EFTA in 1960? 5-10 years later it threw in the towel and along with Denmark and Ireland applied to join the EEC, including assent to the words Ever Closer Union in the Treaty of Rome 1957.
    The Treaty of Rome - such a 1950s throwback!

    Brexit will propel the UK into the 21st century!
    UKIP want to go back to 1957! (ref.: P.Eye cover).
    So do REMAINERs who believe in the Treaty of Rome!
  • Theresa May really is crap at the expectations management and off the records briefings game
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,530

    I'm not sure how I should be classed now. Am I still a remainer (because that was how I voted), or a leaver because I have accepted the result?

    Or am I to be equally despised by both sides as a turncoat? :)

    Depends on whether or not you Be LEAVE, surely :)
    I BE LEAVE that I can't take you seriously any more ... ;)
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PolhomeEditor: So what will happen first? Third runway at Heathrow, Brexit or Jeremy Corbyn completes reshuffle?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:
    Is there ANY decision this Prime Minister won't put off until next year?
    Can't work out whether this is totally wanky, or sensible politicking. They're clearly going to choose Heathrow at the end of the month, then let everyone vent for a year.

    I fear it's wanky. Hmpft.
    I would have preferred Heathrow (hub) to proceed and Hinckley Point C to have been interminably delayed.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Pulpstar said:

    nunu said:

    Scott_P said:
    Oh for goodness sakes its never getting built is it. TMay is turning out to be a not very good PM.She dithers too much.
    Except when

    The Chinese say jump
    She says "How high"
    Very weak, gone down bigley in my estimation.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Scott_P said:
    Insane.

    We're willing to make a decision that will make everyone poorer (HPC) because we wouldn't want to upset the Chinese.

    We're not willing to make a decision that will make everyone richer and demonstrate the UK is open to business at a crucial time.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited October 2016
    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:
    Is there ANY decision this Prime Minister won't put off until next year?
    Can't work out whether this is totally wanky, or sensible politicking. They're clearly going to choose Heathrow at the end of the month, then let everyone vent for a year.

    I fear it's wanky. Hmpft.
    I think it [i.e. the year's consultation period] is normal, isn't it? My reading is that the government is about to make the decision, and then it goes to consultation, as always happens. Surely no-one expected the decision not to be subject to the normal consultation process?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/pickardje/status/788402690229428224

    @JGForsyth: If ministers aren’t allowed 2 criticise the government’s decision making process on runways, presumably they can’t back any judicial review?

    So ministers aren't allowed to criticise kicking cans into the long grass ?

    Or am I misunderstanding..
  • Scott_P said:
    Hmm. Wonder if they're seriously worried about Witney and don't want Zak forcing another by-election shortly afterwards, with all the change in narrative that would bring.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited October 2016
    By the time the much needed airport expansion is actually completed, most of the "child" refugees will be in their 90s....
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Insane.

    We're willing to make a decision that will make everyone poorer (HPC) because we wouldn't want to upset the Chinese.

    We're not willing to make a decision that will make everyone richer and demonstrate the UK is open to business at a crucial time.
    I'm beginning to conclude that Mrs May does not understand Mr Market.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,530
    edited October 2016
    Terrible decision from Mrs May.

    I'm trying (and failing) to remember if there are any more parliamentary votes required for HS2 phase 1 before construction starts next year. I think there must be ...

    Edit: it's with the Lords:
    http://www.parliament.uk/business/committees/committees-a-z/lords-select/high-speed-rail-london-west-midlands-bill-select-committee-lords/
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    The (lack of a) Heathrow decision, sorry, Airport expansion in the South East, does give cover for one or more of the Brexiteers to walk
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Insane.

    We're willing to make a decision that will make everyone poorer (HPC) because we wouldn't want to upset the Chinese.

    We're not willing to make a decision that will make everyone richer and demonstrate the UK is open to business at a crucial time.
    Time to bomb Richmond Park.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited October 2016
    Scott_P said:
    Unless you claim you are you child refugee, despite having wrinkles and grey hair, then you are good to go....
  • Pulpstar said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Insane.

    We're willing to make a decision that will make everyone poorer (HPC) because we wouldn't want to upset the Chinese.

    We're not willing to make a decision that will make everyone richer and demonstrate the UK is open to business at a crucial time.
    Time to bomb Richmond Park.
    But that might wipe out the deer!
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547
    Scott_P said:
    I suspect that paper was leaked by a government spin doctor. It basically says, we're going through the motions and sensitivity will be shown. It will (eventually) be Heathrow and you are not going to stop it.
  • FF43 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I suspect that paper was leaked by a government spin doctor. It basically says, we're going through the motions and sensitivity will be shown. It will (eventually) be Heathrow and you are not going to stop it.
    There would have been an extensive consultation even if they'd chosen Heathrow ten years ago.

    Now about that council tax rebanding...
  • Anyway, the wording of the letter leaves zero doubt that it's Heathrow.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Absolutely pathetic. Governments should govern.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Scott_P said:
    Is there ANY decision this Prime Minister won't put off until next year?
    Can't work out whether this is totally wanky, or sensible politicking. They're clearly going to choose Heathrow at the end of the month, then let everyone vent for a year.

    I fear it's wanky. Hmpft.
    I think it's normal, isn't it? My reading is that the government is about to make the decision, and then it goes to consultation, as always happens. Surely no-one expected the decision not to be subject to the normal consultation process?
    Yes. We may be misreading. They are about to decide, but she has to manage the politics & consultation. There will be simultaneous legal challenges anyway

    It's not like the diggers would go in on the Friday after the decision. Though I bloody well wish they would.
    Richard's interpretation is generous. If it's true, May is going about the comms in a very odd and counterproductive way.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Scott_P said:
    May really is Brown.
    We are - Remainers and Leavers all - going to be quite depressed soon.
  • If Mrs May had any balls, she could just tell Zac Goldsmith to sod off like Thatcher did with the wets.

    Theresa May = Pound shop Gordon Brown.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Jonathan said:
    Great PR move by them with the desired affect. Miles is very good at PR stuff.
    I'm definitely getting it this year! Going to play hard Brexit and win the UCL with Spurs.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited October 2016
    Jonathan said:

    Richard's interpretation is generous. If it's true, May is going about the comms in a very odd and counterproductive way.

    For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not saying that the stuff about cabinet responsibility is normal. It isn't.

    The normal procedure (simplifying a lot) is:

    1. Proposals with options are put forward
    2. Experts examine the options, ask interested parties and public for comments
    3. Experts make a recommendation
    4. Government makes decision taking account of recomendation
    5. Public consultation (usually a charade)
    6. Confirmation of the decision
    7. Planning inquiry
    .. etc etc

    We've been stuck at stage 4, but it looks like we might be about to go on to stage 5.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    SeanT said:

    Is there ANY decision this Prime Minister won't put off until next year?
    Can't work out whether this is totally wanky, or sensible politicking. They're clearly going to choose Heathrow at the end of the month, then let everyone vent for a year.
    I fear it's wanky. Hmpft.

    It seems clear enough to me. Mrs May wants to put off a decision until after the next election. Then the runway can go ahead. After that, she doesn`t care what happens to Maidenhead. She has her place in the history books.
  • Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/pickardje/status/788402690229428224

    @JGForsyth: If ministers aren’t allowed 2 criticise the government’s decision making process on runways, presumably they can’t back any judicial review?

    They could back some judicial reviews, but a large swathe of possible reviews no.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879
    edited October 2016

    If Mrs May had any balls, she could just tell Zac Goldsmith to sod off like Thatcher did with the wets.

    Theresa May = Pound shop Gordon Brown.

    A major theme of Theresa May's premiership is emerging: party before country.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JasonGroves1: PM's spokeswoman asked how many ministers have threatened to resign over Heathrow, replies: 'I'm not keeping a tally'

    So, several then...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited October 2016
    MaxPB said:

    Jonathan said:
    Great PR move by them with the desired affect. Miles is very good at PR stuff.
    I'm definitely getting it this year! Going to play hard Brexit and win the UCL with Spurs.
    So many good games have just come out or are coming out. Unfortunately, I don't have any time to play at the moment, especially not CM.
  • If Mrs May had any balls, she could just tell Zac Goldsmith to sod off like Thatcher did with the wets.

    Theresa May = Pound shop Gordon Brown.

    A major theme of Theresa May's premiership is emerging: party before country.

    I'm coming to the conclusion that Theresa May only looked good because she was up against Andrea Leadsom.

    Might do a thread on that tomorrow.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    SeanT said:

    Hard Brexit and Heathrow Delayed. I started the day quite cheerful.

    Heathrow delayed is particularly dumb if we're going down the Hard Brexit route. We need to be clear that Britain is Open for Business. Anyway, work beckons
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547

    FF43 said:

    Scott_P said:
    I suspect that paper was leaked by a government spin doctor. It basically says, we're going through the motions and sensitivity will be shown. It will (eventually) be Heathrow and you are not going to stop it.
    There would have been an extensive consultation even if they'd chosen Heathrow ten years ago.

    Now about that council tax rebanding...
    Yeah, but they didn't choose Heathrow ten years ago. Now I think they have.

    In politics nothing is decided until it is decided, of course. My reading of that memo is, we have decided. We are getting our ducks in a row, including bolshy government ministers.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    SeanT said:

    Hard Brexit and Heathrow Delayed. I started the day quite cheerful.

    Let's wait and see whether the chancellor resigns.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCNormanS: Any minister who wants to oppose Govt decision on Heathrow will have to ask Theresa May's permission
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited October 2016
    SeanT said:

    Hard Brexit and Heathrow Delayed. I started the day quite cheerful.

    The gloom descends.
    Winter 17/18 is a flipping joke whatever spin you put on it.

    And that immigration task force should be called the recession task force.

  • Theresa May really is crap at the expectations management and off the records briefings game

    Wouldn't it be a lovely improvement to society if that didn't matter?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972
    edited October 2016
    I was right

    The coalition worked better as a government than a small majority government.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @JohnRentoul: Observations:

    1. "Official Sensitive" means "on Twitter".
    2. Option of "no expansion" ruled out.
    3. Heathrow 3rd runway will never be built.
  • So, Heathrow is NOT delayed. This is about as fast as it could be (which is very slow, admittedly).
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    QTWTAIN
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Eagles, worth recalling Cameron also did nothing on Heathrow.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Scott_P said:

    @JohnRentoul: Observations:

    1. "Official Sensitive" means "on Twitter".
    2. Option of "no expansion" ruled out.
    3. Heathrow 3rd runway will never be built.

    So, Heathrow is NOT delayed. This is about as fast as it could be (which is very slow, admittedly).

    Nabavi vs Rentoul...

    Interesting.

    How long does an airport runway normally take to get built ?
  • I'm disappointed no one has discussed the AV/electoral reform angle in the thread header.

    You people tell me you love AV threads.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    I don't see this makes any sense. Had we voted to Remain we would have ended up forced "to sign up to things like the Euro, The EU Army, and the Schengen agreement, possibly all of them" with the referendum result taken as democratic backing for the Project.

    Nope.

    The referendum would have seen the backing of the "deal" negotiated by Cameron.

    This idea that we were being ineluctably drawn into a nefarious pit of domination is nonsense.

    We were fence-sitting. Uncomfortably. But we'd been doing it successfully for many many years.

    I don't see this makes any sense. Had we voted to Remain we would have ended up forced "to sign up to things like the Euro, The EU Army, and the Schengen agreement, possibly all of them" with the referendum result taken as democratic backing for the Project.

    No. The referendum was clear on remain's side: it was for Cameron's renegotiation, which included none of the above.

    There might have been gradual creep towards them over the years (and that was my biggest fear about remain), but there was no mandate from a remain win for them, especially with such a close vote as we got.

    The problem we are faced with is that leave's meaning was unclear and inconsistent. As was pointed out at the time.
    Both of you, I think, are making the mistake of thinking I'm referring to how it would have been seen in Britain. I'm not, I'm referring to how it would have been seen in Brussels. Had we voted to Remain, any British resistance to further integration would have been met with "you have to, your people voted to stay in".
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    How crap do you have to be before Lucy Powell can legitimately mock you?

    https://twitter.com/lucympowell/status/788406876836864000
  • So, Heathrow is NOT delayed. This is about as fast as it could be (which is very slow, admittedly).

    Do you think political discourse would be improved by a 12 hour delay between news being released & comments being posted?
  • Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:

    @JohnRentoul: Observations:

    1. "Official Sensitive" means "on Twitter".
    2. Option of "no expansion" ruled out.
    3. Heathrow 3rd runway will never be built.

    So, Heathrow is NOT delayed. This is about as fast as it could be (which is very slow, admittedly).

    Nabavi vs Rentoul...

    Interesting.

    How long does an airport runway normally take to get built ?
    I didn't say it would ever be built...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Scott_P said:

    @BBCNormanS: Any minister who wants to oppose Govt decision on Heathrow will have to ask Theresa May's permission

    So let me get this right.

    Kick the can down the road because some threaten to dissent; but you can only dissent with permission of Mrs May.

    There's something incredibly tortured about all of this.

This discussion has been closed.