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  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    Cyclefree said:

    Yes - that Cato article I referred to earlier today makes very similar points. . https://www.cato.org/policy-report/novemberdecember-2016/new-old-challenge-global-anti-libertarianism

    I read that article (it's been posted before - perhaps by you, I forget, and apologies if it was by you) and although I agree with it, I suspect the methods proposed to implement it will revolve around banning people for who they are, instead of what they do. I'm OK with the latter but not the former.

  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    @Richard_Nabavi

    "... as far as the UK, and especially London, was concerned, the IRA attacks were much worse. For years, you were aware every single day of the risk, the disruption to everyday life was huge"

    Crap. Pish and Tish. The campaign by PIRA occupied most of my professional adult life one way or another and the disruption to civil society was never huge and it was never of daily concern to the vast majority of the population. I lost good friends and had more scarred for life so I will not belittle what PIRA did but I will refute to my dying breath that they had the effect you attribute to them.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    I will be interested to hear how you find Switzerland vs here (said from no particular knowledge save as a frequent visitor).

    They have a harder line on integration and education. Immigrants must all learn the language to engage with the state and there are no benefits without speaking German, French or Italian. Translation is to one of the four official languages and English anyone who wants additional translation must do it themselves and then have it notarised at the own expense.

    It's a system that works IMO, but really it's because we don't have the basics like education and language in place it won't work here.
    Everything seems to come back to our education system. It is failing to support integration, and failing to equip people with the skills needed for the 21st century.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited December 2016

    Richard Nabavi, do you think the IMF Board is justified in retaining full confidence in Lagarde?

    On balance I don't think they would have been justified in calling for her resignation. The French court found that she should have listened to advice that she shouldn't accept the verdict of an arbitration panel. It didn't find her guilty of any dishonesty or criminal negligence.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    @MaxPB said:

    "Moving in January!

    It's time to try something else, whatever we're doing at the moment isn't working. The Casey report was damning on Islamic integration in the UK and poll after poll has shown 25-30% of UK Muslims (higher among the young) support the actions of terrorists. That is not only damning, but dangerous for the nation. The nation has no bloody need to these people to stay here, if we can move them on with stealth laws that make being Muslim difficult then we should do it."

    I wish you the best of luck on your move.

    The Casey report was damning. And, sadly, already yesterday's fish and chip wrapping.

    But the damage, to me, was done years ago in the easy going 70s, 80s, and 90s. Islam is here to stay in Britain. Now that we know the ramifications of that, we should halt as much immigration from Islamic countries as possible. But as far as I know we have largely done that.
    (someone will correct me).

    @Cyclefree and others are right. This is now about hearts and minds. However we are wedded to certain shibboleths that prevent the full-blooded defence of our own values.

    We can start by ending the insanity of allowing non-citizens to vote in national elections just because their home countries were part of the Empire, in some cases nearly 70 years ago.

    We give out passports much too quickly as well.
  • SpeedySpeedy Posts: 12,100
    edited December 2016
    I'm planning to watch this Zsa Zsa Gabor (since she died yesterday) film on new years eve as a fitting movie for a crazy year that was 2016;

    https://twitter.com/tomtomorrow/status/810629782048272384
    It's like a "Fake News" collection poster.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    RoyalBlue said:

    @MaxPB said:

    "Moving in January!

    It's time to try something else, whatever we're doing at the moment isn't working. The Casey report was damning on Islamic integration in the UK and poll after poll has shown 25-30% of UK Muslims (higher among the young) support the actions of terrorists. That is not only damning, but dangerous for the nation. The nation has no bloody need to these people to stay here, if we can move them on with stealth laws that make being Muslim difficult then we should do it."

    I wish you the best of luck on your move.

    The Casey report was damning. And, sadly, already yesterday's fish and chip wrapping.

    But the damage, to me, was done years ago in the easy going 70s, 80s, and 90s. Islam is here to stay in Britain. Now that we know the ramifications of that, we should halt as much immigration from Islamic countries as possible. But as far as I know we have largely done that.
    (someone will correct me).

    @Cyclefree and others are right. This is now about hearts and minds. However we are wedded to certain shibboleths that prevent the full-blooded defence of our own values.

    We can start by ending the insanity of allowing non-citizens to vote in national elections just because their home countries were part of the Empire, in some cases nearly 70 years ago.

    We give out passports much too quickly as well.
    +1 on both counts (although I would keep the exception for Irish citizens).
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    @MaxPB said:

    "Moving in January!

    It's time to try something else, whatever we're doing at the moment isn't working. The Casey report was damning on Islamic integration in the UK and poll after poll has shown 25-30% of UK Muslims (higher among the young) support the actions of terrorists. That is not only damning, but dangerous for the nation. The nation has no bloody need to these people to stay here, if we can move them on with stealth laws that make being Muslim difficult then we should do it."

    I wish you the best of luck on your move.

    The Casey report was damning. And, sadly, already yesterday's fish and chip wrapping.

    But the damage, to me, was done years ago in the easy going 70s, 80s, and 90s. Islam is here to stay in Britain. Now that we know the ramifications of that, we should halt as much immigration from Islamic countries as possible. But as far as I know we have largely done that.
    (someone will correct me).

    @Cyclefree and others are right. This is now about hearts and minds. However we are wedded to certain shibboleths that prevent the full-blooded defence of our own values.

    Actually Mrs May has been pretty ineffective at stopping non-EU immigratikn, much of which comes from Muslim countries.

    Islamism has replaced Communism as the ideology of resistance and of fanatics that hate Western consumer culture. With its simple truths, even simpler solutions, back to home values and love of guns and flags it has a lot in common with other populist movements.

  • Err,

    Nevertheless, you can't have an IMF lead found guilty of fraud - by negligence or otherwise.

    She should resign.

    Ms Lagarde wasn't found guilty of fraud.

    And she is not, as @MP_SE seems to think, a 'convicted criminal'. The court specifically exonerated her of any criminal offence.

    But I'm sure mere facts like these won't have much potency.
    I stand corrected.

    I still don't think it's a good look though.
    She should go.
    Is this like the football club chairman's vote of confidence?

    https://twitter.com/AFP/status/810974840312172544
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    @MaxPB said:

    "Moving in January!

    It's time to try something else, whatever we're doing at the moment isn't working. The Casey report was damning on Islamic integration in the UK and poll after poll has shown 25-30% of UK Muslims (higher among the young) support the actions of terrorists. That is not only damning, but dangerous for the nation. The nation has no bloody need to these people to stay here, if we can move them on with stealth laws that make being Muslim difficult then we should do it."

    I wish you the best of luck on your move.

    The Casey report was damning. And, sadly, already yesterday's fish and chip wrapping.

    But the damage, to me, was done years ago in the easy going 70s, 80s, and 90s. Islam is here to stay in Britain. Now that we know the ramifications of that, we should halt as much immigration from Islamic countries as possible. But as far as I know we have largely done that.
    (someone will correct me).

    @Cyclefree and others are right. This is now about hearts and minds. However we are wedded to certain shibboleths that prevent the full-blooded defence of our own values.

    And I have to say, it is the same type of lilly livered remain campaigners which appeases hardline Islam. I'm happy to stand up for western values, whatever the cost. Part of why I voted to leave was standing up for British values against the march of "Europeanism" and the eventual emergence of a single state that we'd have to join. The cost may be high economically to stand up for our nation, but so be it.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited December 2016

    @Richard_Nabavi

    "... as far as the UK, and especially London, was concerned, the IRA attacks were much worse. For years, you were aware every single day of the risk, the disruption to everyday life was huge"

    Crap. Pish and Tish. The campaign by PIRA occupied most of my professional adult life one way or another and the disruption to civil society was never huge and it was never of daily concern to the vast majority of the population. I lost good friends and had more scarred for life so I will not belittle what PIRA did but I will refute to my dying breath that they had the effect you attribute to them.

    You are simply wrong. I spend a lot of time in London now, as I did in the seventies and eighties. Currently, no-one pays the slightest attention to the risk of a terrorist attack, and there is very rarely any actual disruption. That is utterly different to the 70s and 80s.

    Of course, we 'carried on' without letting it stop us from getting on with our lives. But the thought was always there - now, it's not, thanks be to God
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    Err,

    Nevertheless, you can't have an IMF lead found guilty of fraud - by negligence or otherwise.

    She should resign.

    Ms Lagarde wasn't found guilty of fraud.

    And she is not, as @MP_SE seems to think, a 'convicted criminal'. The court specifically exonerated her of any criminal offence.

    But I'm sure mere facts like these won't have much potency.
    I stand corrected.

    Just guilty of negligence! No big deal.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Q - What do you get when you cross a vampire with a snowman?

    A - Frost bite
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    RoyalBlue said:

    @MaxPB said:

    "Moving in January!

    It's time to try something else, whatever we're doing at the moment isn't working. The Casey report was damning on Islamic integration in the UK and poll after poll has shown 25-30% of UK Muslims (higher among the young) support the actions of terrorists. That is not only damning, but dangerous for the nation. The nation has no bloody need to these people to stay here, if we can move them on with stealth laws that make being Muslim difficult then we should do it."

    I wish you the best of luck on your move.

    The Casey report was damning. And, sadly, already yesterday's fish and chip wrapping.

    But the damage, to me, was done years ago in the easy going 70s, 80s, and 90s. Islam is here to stay in Britain. Now that we know the ramifications of that, we should halt as much immigration from Islamic countries as possible. But as far as I know we have largely done that.
    (someone will correct me).

    @Cyclefree and others are right. This is now about hearts and minds. However we are wedded to certain shibboleths that prevent the full-blooded defence of our own values.

    We can start by ending the insanity of allowing non-citizens to vote in national elections just because their home countries were part of the Empire, in some cases nearly 70 years ago.

    We give out passports much too quickly as well.
    +1 on both counts (although I would keep the exception for Irish citizens).
    The current rule on voting is insane. And I can't think of any lobby against changing it. What's stopping us? Good old fashioned inertia I guess.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    MP_SE said:

    I also bought Dune which I am really really looking forward to. There are not many films which give me goosebumps but that is one of them. Bit of a marmite movie as far as reviews go.

    Dune (the movie) is brilliantly designed and cast (Rhoda's dad as Baron Harkonnen! Freddie Jones and Brad Dourif in the same room! Sting's pants!) but the script and direction are awful, awful, awful.

  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642

    @MP_SE
    "I have heard so many people say the book is amazing and miles better than the film. Quite remarkable that the book was published back in the 60s"

    I have never seen and will never see the film, I have however read the book many times since it was first published. The book had one great thing, it never tried to explain the technology - the physics behind an ornithopter, for example, were left blank. It was just a great story brilliantly told and like a really good play on the radio it left much to the imagination of the audience.

    The sequels I have never been able to get on with. In fact to be honest I have never got beyond the first fifty pages of Dune: The Messiah - the first sequel.

    Cannot wait to give it a read. I have a huge pile of books on medieval manuscripts to work my way though first.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    @Viewcode -

    Try the 3 dvd TV version of Dune (made in 2000)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    MaxPB said:

    @MaxPB said:

    "Moving in January!

    It's time to try something else, whatever we're doing at the moment isn't working. The Casey report was damning on Islamic integration in the UK and poll after poll has shown 25-30% of UK Muslims (higher among the young) support the actions of terrorists. That is not only damning, but dangerous for the nation. The nation has no bloody need to these people to stay here, if we can move them on with stealth laws that make being Muslim difficult then we should do it."

    I wish you the best of luck on your move.

    The Casey report was damning. And, sadly, already yesterday's fish and chip wrapping.

    But the damage, to me, was done years ago in the easy going 70s, 80s, and 90s. Islam is here to stay in Britain. Now that we know the ramifications of that, we should halt as much immigration from Islamic countries as possible. But as far as I know we have largely done that.
    (someone will correct me).

    @Cyclefree and others are right. This is now about hearts and minds. However we are wedded to certain shibboleths that prevent the full-blooded defence of our own values.

    And I have to say, it is the same type of lilly livered remain campaigners which appeases hardline Islam. I'm happy to stand up for western values, whatever the cost. Part of why I voted to leave was standing up for British values against the march of "Europeanism" and the eventual emergence of a single state that we'd have to join. The cost may be high economically to stand up for our nation, but so be it.
    Though you do seem to find free movement to Continental Europe a convenient right to have...

    The Swiss Muslim population has grown from 1% to 5% in 30 years, so now is percentagewise the same as us. They have some interesting ideas on integration. It seems sweatpants are not acceptable, must wear jeans like a Yankee instead.

    http://mobile.wnd.com/2016/07/swiss-do-the-unthinkable-with-muslim-population/


  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    @MaxPB said:

    "Moving in January!

    It's time to try something else, whatever we're doing at the moment isn't working. The Casey report was damning on Islamic integration in the UK and poll after poll has shown 25-30% of UK Muslims (higher among the young) support the actions of terrorists. That is not only damning, but dangerous for the nation. The nation has no bloody need to these people to stay here, if we can move them on with stealth laws that make being Muslim difficult then we should do it."

    I wish you the best of luck on your move.

    The Casey report was damning. And, sadly, already yesterday's fish and chip wrapping.

    But the damage, to me, was done years ago in the easy going 70s, 80s, and 90s. Islam is here to stay in Britain. Now that we know the ramifications of that, we should halt as much immigration from Islamic countries as possible. But as far as I know we have largely done that.
    (someone will correct me).

    @Cyclefree and others are right. This is now about hearts and minds. However we are wedded to certain shibboleths that prevent the full-blooded defence of our own values.

    Actually Mrs May has been pretty ineffective at stopping non-EU immigratikn, much of which comes from Muslim countries.

    Islamism has replaced Communism as the ideology of resistance and of fanatics that hate Western consumer culture. With its simple truths, even simpler solutions, back to home values and love of guns and flags it has a lot in common with other populist movements.

    Political Islam is fascist. It doesn't tolerate non-Muslims, it doesn't tolerate homosexuals and it doesn't tolerate apostasy. If the Middle East didn't have oil we would never have appeased these fascists in the first place.
  • Here we go again....have they announced he was locally known as David yet?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772

    DavidL said:

    MP_SE said:

    viewcode said:

    MP_SE said:

    ...Blade Runner was a masterpiece. Apparently Dark City is of a similar style. I am saving it for this weekend when I can finally put my feet up.

    Dark City is perhaps overrated: its plot (without giving away spoilers) was explored in other 90's movies and was a bit of a cliche (you'll know which one when you see it)
    I shall approach it with an open mind. From what I have read the plot doesn't look anywhere near as interesting as Blade Runner.

    I also bought Dune which I am really really looking forward to. There are not many films which give me goosebumps but that is one of them. Bit of a marmite movie as far as reviews go.
    The Dune film was no better than ok but the book, oh the book. I noticed that they had a 50 year edition out for Christmas. I am tempted to add to my copies. It is simply brilliant and has not dated at all in all that time.
    The first book is fantastic. The endless sequels, not so much.
    God Emperor of Dune, the fourth, is actually my favourite. But I would agree some were more original than others.

  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Just picking up on that Turkish polceman who doesn't seem to be linked to IS.

    Money seems to be going on Al Nusra links but nothing sure yet.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    MaxPB said:

    @MaxPB said:

    "Moving in January!

    It's time to try something else, whatever we're doing at the moment isn't working. The Casey report was damning on Islamic integration in the UK and poll after poll has shown 25-30% of UK Muslims (higher among the young) support the actions of terrorists. That is not only damning, but dangerous for the nation. The nation has no bloody need to these people to stay here, if we can move them on with stealth laws that make being Muslim difficult then we should do it."

    I wish you the best of luck on your move.

    The Casey report was damning. And, sadly, already yesterday's fish and chip wrapping.

    But the damage, to me, was done years ago in the easy going 70s, 80s, and 90s. Islam is here to stay in Britain. Now that we know the ramifications of that, we should halt as much immigration from Islamic countries as possible. But as far as I know we have largely done that.
    (someone will correct me).

    @Cyclefree and others are right. This is now about hearts and minds. However we are wedded to certain shibboleths that prevent the full-blooded defence of our own values.

    And I have to say, it is the same type of lilly livered remain campaigners which appeases hardline Islam. I'm happy to stand up for western values, whatever the cost. Part of why I voted to leave was standing up for British values against the march of "Europeanism" and the eventual emergence of a single state that we'd have to join. The cost may be high economically to stand up for our nation, but so be it.
    Though you do seem to find free movement to Continental Europe a convenient right to have...

    The Swiss Muslim population has grown from 1% to 5% in 30 years, so now is percentagewise the same as us. They have some interesting ideas on integration. It seems sweatpants are not acceptable, must wear jeans like a Yankee instead.

    http://mobile.wnd.com/2016/07/swiss-do-the-unthinkable-with-muslim-population/


    I'd get a visa if I had to. Free movement makes no difference to me.

    Most Swiss Muslims are Turkish, Kurdish or Albanian migrants, many from the latter group are returning to Albania as well.
  • HurstLlamaHurstLlama Posts: 9,098
    "You are simply wrong."

    No I am not, Mr. Navabi. You Might have gone through the 70's and 80's as a quaking jelly terrified of PIRA but the vast majority of the population didn't.
  • YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    edited December 2016
    I see the usual suspects have descended into cryptofascistic ranting. The reason there is never a grand plan in response to these sorts of attacks is because it's bloody complicated. Why do we accept enormous death tolls from Car accidents year upon year with almost no coverage or debate ? Because cars promote individual freedom and are wedded in our culture.

    It's the same with these low tech attacks. It's never been harder to hermetically seal our societies. It's never been easier for ideas and people to travel. The idea there are any easy solutions or solutions that wouldn't impinge on all our freedoms and life styles is absurd.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    I see the usual suspects have descended into cryphofascistic ranting. The reason there is never a grand plan in response to these sorts of attacks is because it's bloody complicated. Why do we accept enormous death tolls from Car accidents year upon year with almost no coverage or debate ? Because cars promote individual freedom and are wedded in our culture.

    It's the same with these low tech attacks. It's never been harder to hermetically seal our societies. It's never been easier for ideas and people to travel. The idea there are any easy solutions or solutions that wouldn't impinge on all our freedoms and life styles is absurd.

    People choose to be Muslim and they choose to be a hardline Muslim. Making that choice have real negatives or difficult will help. Religion is a choice and with hardline Islam, it is a choice that should be made unacceptable in this country.
  • "You are simply wrong."

    No I am not, Mr. Navabi. You Might have gone through the 70's and 80's as a quaking jelly terrified of PIRA but the vast majority of the population didn't.

    That's actually a fairly disgusting comment, which I am sure on reflection you will withdraw. However, more to the point, you yourself just wrote "I lost good friends and had more scarred for life so I will not belittle what PIRA did". Tell me, is that also true in respect of the current Islamic terrorism?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    test
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    x
    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    isam said:

    wasd said:

    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

    But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

    Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.
    Impossible.

    In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK
    In 20 years the Middle East will be a starving wasteland as fracking, electric vehicles, climate change and the automation of basic manufacturing completely destroy their ability to feed themselves let alone export their ideology.
    So what? On present trends London will be Islamic in a generation or two, as will many other large towns and cities in England. Why do you think the people who aren't integrating now will start to when they are the majority? They will control whole towns and demand some kind of devolution in all probability.
    Numbers please.
    I have had to estimate 1991 as I cant find the data. If we accept that London has 40% of the UKs muslims now (wiki) and there were 1m Muslims in UK in 1991 that gives 400k in London.

    so

    1991 400k Muslims in London out of 6.8m overall population = 5.8%
    2001 607k out of 7.3m = 8.3%
    2011 1.02 out of 8.2m = 12.4%

    I think on those numbers it is fair to estimate 50% being achieved by 2066
    The birth rate will fall like they did with every immigrant populations over the years and with Muslims too.
    We have record numbers still arriving through immigration, let alone breeding
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    MaxPB said:

    ...Religion is a choice...

    Four thousand years of human history says otherwise.

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    Tim_B said:

    @Viewcode -

    Try the 3 dvd TV version of Dune (made in 2000)

    Thank you
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Azy
    The pictures from Ankara looks like something out of a movie. Damn. https://t.co/5jgk5y4gj5
  • viewcode said:

    MaxPB said:

    ...Religion is a choice...

    Four thousand years of human history says otherwise.

    Four thousand?

    And how do you explain atheism/agnosticism?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    isam said:

    x

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    isam said:

    wasd said:

    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

    But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

    Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.
    Impossible.

    In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK
    In 20 years the Middle East will be a starving wasteland as fracking, electric vehicles, climate change and the automation of basic manufacturing completely destroy their ability to feed themselves let alone export their ideology.
    So what? On present trends London will be Islamic in a generation or two, as will many other large towns and cities in England. Why do you think the people who aren't integrating now will start to when they are the majority? They will control whole towns and demand some kind of devolution in all probability.
    Numbers please.
    I have had to estimate 1991 as I cant find the data. If we accept that London has 40% of the UKs muslims now (wiki) and there were 1m Muslims in UK in 1991 that gives 400k in London.

    so

    1991 400k Muslims in London out of 6.8m overall population = 5.8%
    2001 607k out of 7.3m = 8.3%
    2011 1.02 out of 8.2m = 12.4%

    I think on those numbers it is fair to estimate 50% being achieved by 2066
    The birth rate will fall like they did with every immigrant populations over the years and with Muslims too.
    We have record numbers still arriving through immigration, let alone breeding
    The fertility rate of Muslims is dropping worldwide:

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4019826,00.html

    A particular determinant of declining fertility is education of women, as well as women working outside the home.

    Don't shun these people, do your bit by employing and promoting young Muslim women in your workplace! and on that note goodnight :-)
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Here we go again....have they announced he was locally known as David yet?

    Probably Johaness this time.
  • Here we go again....have they announced he was locally known as David yet?

    Alright, Dave? :)
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    edited December 2016

    viewcode said:

    MaxPB said:

    ...Religion is a choice...

    Four thousand years of human history says otherwise.

    Four thousand?

    And how do you explain atheism/agnosticism?
    If I remember correctly, human history is a bit wobbly prior to 2000BC. If I looked it up I wouldn't be surprised if we could push it back to, say, 5000BC, which would make it seven thousand years. Am I inaccurate here?

    MaxPB makes a valid point as to choice - a religion can be rejected or chosen - but I also make a valid point as to birth: the religion of a child is imposed by the parent and rarely fully rejected in adulthood. It's like nationality: one can choose differently and many do so, but mostly do not. To present religion solely as a choice is to miss something about humans.

    [edit: correct name]
  • isam said:

    x

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    isam said:

    wasd said:

    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

    But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

    Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.
    Impossible.

    In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK
    In 20 years the Middle East will be a starving wasteland as fracking, electric vehicles, climate change and the automation of basic manufacturing completely destroy their ability to feed themselves let alone export their ideology.
    So what? On present trends London will be Islamic in a generation or two, as will many other large towns and cities in England. Why do you think the people who aren't integrating now will start to when they are the majority? They will control whole towns and demand some kind of devolution in all probability.
    Numbers please.
    I have had to estimate 1991 as I cant find the data. If we accept that London has 40% of the UKs muslims now (wiki) and there were 1m Muslims in UK in 1991 that gives 400k in London.

    so

    1991 400k Muslims in London out of 6.8m overall population = 5.8%
    2001 607k out of 7.3m = 8.3%
    2011 1.02 out of 8.2m = 12.4%

    I think on those numbers it is fair to estimate 50% being achieved by 2066
    The birth rate will fall like they did with every immigrant populations over the years and with Muslims too.
    We have record numbers still arriving through immigration, let alone breeding
    Yet still the total numbers are <5% of the national population. How you think it will go from <5% to >50% in half a century is beyond me.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,340

    viewcode said:

    MaxPB said:

    ...Religion is a choice...

    Four thousand years of human history says otherwise.

    Four thousand?

    And how do you explain atheism/agnosticism?
    Those are also religions, just not in the conventional sense.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731

    isam said:

    x

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    isam said:

    wasd said:

    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

    But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

    Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.
    Impossible.

    In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK
    In 20 years the Middle East will be a starving wasteland as fracking, electric vehicles, climate change and the automation of basic manufacturing completely destroy their ability to feed themselves let alone export their ideology.
    So what? On present trends London will be Islamic in a generation or two, as will many other large towns and cities in England. Why do you think the people who aren't integrating now will start to when they are the majority? They will control whole towns and demand some kind of devolution in all probability.
    Numbers please.
    I have had to estimate 1991 as I cant find the data. If we accept that London has 40% of the UKs muslims now (wiki) and there were 1m Muslims in UK in 1991 that gives 400k in London.

    so

    1991 400k Muslims in London out of 6.8m overall population = 5.8%
    2001 607k out of 7.3m = 8.3%
    2011 1.02 out of 8.2m = 12.4%

    I think on those numbers it is fair to estimate 50% being achieved by 2066
    The birth rate will fall like they did with every immigrant populations over the years and with Muslims too.
    We have record numbers still arriving through immigration, let alone breeding
    Yet still the total numbers are <5% of the national population. How you think it will go from <5% to >50% in half a century is beyond me.
    Did I say the country would be 50% Muslim? No I didn't
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Die Welt: Berlin Terror-Truck driver from Pakistan, came to Germany as "refugee" last January https://t.co/RSuPvYy04o
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,340
    edited December 2016
    isam said:

    x

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    isam said:

    wasd said:

    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

    But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

    .
    Impossible.

    In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK
    .
    .
    Numbers please.
    I have had to estimate 1991 as I cant find the data. If we accept that London has 40% of the UKs muslims now (wiki) and there were 1m Muslims in UK in 1991 that gives 400k in London.

    so

    1991 400k Muslims in London out of 6.8m overall population = 5.8%
    2001 607k out of 7.3m = 8.3%
    2011 1.02 out of 8.2m = 12.4%

    I think on those numbers it is fair to estimate 50% being achieved by 2066
    The birth rate will fall like they did with every immigrant populations over the years and with Muslims too.
    We have record numbers still arriving through immigration, let alone breeding

    RoyalBlue said:

    @MaxPB said:

    "Moving in January!

    It's time to try something else, whatever we're doing at the moment isn't working. The Casey report was damning on Islamic integration in the UK and poll after poll has shown 25-30% of UK Muslims (higher among the young) support the actions of terrorists. That is not only damning, but dangerous for the nation. The nation has no bloody need to these people to stay here, if we can move them on with stealth laws that make being Muslim difficult then we should do it."

    I wish you the best of luck on your move.

    The Casey report was damning. And, sadly, already yesterday's fish and chip wrapping.

    @Cyclefree and others are right. This is now about hearts and minds. However we are wedded to certain shibboleths that prevent the full-blooded defence of our own values.

    We can start by ending the insanity of allowing non-citizens to vote in national elections just because their home countries were part of the Empire, in some cases nearly 70 years ago.

    We give out passports much too quickly as well.
    +1 on both counts (although I would keep the exception for Irish citizens).
    Citizenship requires 5 years of continuous residence in the U.K, a clean criminal record , no use of benefits during the 5 year period and paying all taxes due to HMRC. (It also costs nearly £1000 per applicant). What about that is quick or easy?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    MaxPB said:

    ...Religion is a choice...

    Four thousand years of human history says otherwise.

    Four thousand?

    And how do you explain atheism/agnosticism?
    If I remember correctly, human history is a bit wobbly prior to 2000BC. If I looked it up I wouldn't be surprised if we could push it back to, say, 5000BC, which would make it seven thousand years. Am I inaccurate here?

    MaxPB makes a valid point as to choice - a religion can be rejected or chosen - but I also make a valid point as to birth: the religion of a child is imposed by the parent and rarely fully rejected in adulthood. It's like nationality: one can choose differently and many do so, but mostly do not. To present religion solely as a choice is to miss something about humans.

    [edit: correct name]
    That's called brainwashing. I was raised nominally as a Hindu. I have since chosen not to be a part of any religion. The sad part is that if a Muslim makes that choice they would put their life in danger as happened to a friend of mine from Glasgow who had to leave and came down to London and changed his name. Religion is a choice, brainwashing of children should not be tolerated either.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Or do your bit mr @foxinsoxuk by moving to a high muslim population area like Bradford ;-) we must stop this white flight ;-)
  • Appalling news from Berlin, when I read earlier that a lorry was involved, my hope was not another Nice, Bastille Day terrorist attack, alas.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    edited December 2016

    Citizenship requires 5 years of continuous residence in the U.K, a clean criminal record , no use of benefits during the 5 year period and paying all taxes due to HMRC. (It also costs nearly £1000 per applicant). What about that is quick or easy?

    Make it 10 years like Switzerland and impose language restrictions on importation of foreign wives and end family reunions for all kinds of migrant. Also require citizen sponsors to the application, in Switzerland someone who wants to be naturalised needs to know at least three Swiss families and have them sponsor your application before the government will even look at it.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    edited December 2016
    Whoever this guy was driving this truck, there is certainly good potential he wasn't on his own. The truck was hijacked, complete with the original driver.

    By the way, wait on the confirmation on the Pakistani thing. Stick with broadly South Asian for now.
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    Allison Pearson
    @gabyhinsliff Ariel Zurawski owns truck company. Told TVN24 Murdered man was his cousin. Sound like facts to me #BerlinAttack
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited December 2016
    "Four thousand years of human history says otherwise."

    The last fifty years says otherwise of your otherwise. Quebec, for example, has gone from being intensely religious to one of the most secular places in the world. Wales too.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Y0kel said:

    Whoever this guy was driving this truck, there is certainly good potential he wasn't on his own. The truck was hijacked, complete with the original driver.

    By the way, wait on the confirmation on the Pakistani thing. Stick with broadly South Asian for now.

    It's in Die Welt. Not one for misinformation.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    I'd still wait Max. He is from around that region but there is a question mark.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    MaxPB said:

    ...Religion is a choice, brainwashing of children should not be tolerated either.

    There are over a hundred million babies born each year. In the overwhelming majority of cases those children will be assigned to a religion by their parents.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Ms. Cyclefree is right the only way to defeat Islamic extremism is through the battle of ideas. Mandating wether we should have ritual slaughter or not is nonsense. Universities, Prions and mosques should invite extreme preachers to debate moderate scholars. They should debate every part of Islam including what is Jihad and how should it be carried out and the so called sword verses in the Quran. Everything else is rubbish as extremists won't care about eating halal meat or not as they believ they will have 72 virgins with a few days/months/years.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Y0kel said:

    I'd still wait Max. He is from around that region but there is a question mark.

    They have the precise date he came and it seems that he's known to the police for misdemeanours. If the stated origin is wrong it will be because he lied from the beginning.
  • MP_SEMP_SE Posts: 3,642
    viewcode said:

    MP_SE said:

    I also bought Dune which I am really really looking forward to. There are not many films which give me goosebumps but that is one of them. Bit of a marmite movie as far as reviews go.

    Dune (the movie) is brilliantly designed and cast (Rhoda's dad as Baron Harkonnen! Freddie Jones and Brad Dourif in the same room! Sting's pants!) but the script and direction are awful, awful, awful.

    The only other David Lynch movie I have seen is Mulholland Drive. Whilst a very good film it seemed like a bit of a mess at times.
  • isam said:



    isam said:

    x

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    isam said:

    wasd said:

    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

    But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

    Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.
    Impossible.

    In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK
    In 20 years the Middle East will be a starving wasteland as fracking, electric vehicles, climate change and the automation of basic manufacturing completely destroy their ability to feed themselves let alone export their ideology.
    So what? On present trends London will be Islamic in a generation or two, as will many other large towns and cities in England. Why do you think the people who aren't integrating now will start to when they are the majority? They will control whole towns and demand some kind of devolution in all probability.
    Numbers please.
    I have had to estimate 1991 as I cant find the data. If we accept that London has 40% of the UKs muslims now (wiki) and there were 1m Muslims in UK in 1991 that gives 400k in London.

    so

    1991 400k Muslims in London out of 6.8m overall population = 5.8%
    2001 607k out of 7.3m = 8.3%
    2011 1.02 out of 8.2m = 12.4%

    I think on those numbers it is fair to estimate 50% being achieved by 2066
    The birth rate will fall like they did with every immigrant populations over the years and with Muslims too.
    We have record numbers still arriving through immigration, let alone breeding
    Yet still the total numbers are <5% of the national population. How you think it will go from <5% to >50% in half a century is beyond me.
    Did I say the country would be 50% Muslim? No I didn't
    No you said there would be Quote "an Islamic State in the UK". Nations with an "Islamic state" are typically over 90% Muslim. I gave benefit of the doubt and rounded down to 50%.

    If you meant less than that then how little did you mean?
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Still no harm in waiting until the backstory is more certain. Its not going to change what he did.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    I will be interested to hear how you find Switzerland vs here (said from no particular knowledge save as a frequent visitor).

    They have a harder line on integration and education. Immigrants must all learn the language to engage with the state and there are no benefits without speaking German, French or Italian. Translation is to one of the four official languages and English anyone who wants additional translation must do it themselves and then have it notarised at the own expense.

    It's a system that works IMO, but really it's because we don't have the basics like education and language in place it won't work here.
    It's also one of the, if not the, smuggest, dullest, least dynamic, most tax evadery countries I've seen. Geneva is, more do than London, the spiritual home of corrupt Arabs.

    Loathsome place.
  • DavidL said:

    @DavidL Terrorism doesn't happen very often. Sometimes you'll get a long streak without it by chance.

    Try telling the Germans that, or the French or the Belgians. Given our less than wise policies in the middle east in the early years of this century we should be a clearer target than any of these countries and yet we have gone more than a decade without this kind of insanity. We may well have been lucky but we have also been good.
    IIRC it was recently reported that the UK is regarded as too hard a target by many groups - the intelligence services too on the ball. I wonder how German intelligence is feeling today and whether they wish they enjoyed greater confidence of their UK counterparts.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    AndyJS said:

    "Four thousand years of human history says otherwise."

    The last fifty years says otherwise of your otherwise. Quebec, for example, has gone from being intensely religious to one of the most secular places in the world. Wales too.

    Hmm...fair point. And the classification of Britain as "post-religious" has been mooted. But be honest: do you think this is anything other than transitory? In ten, a hundred, a thousand, even a million years' time, the average human will still acknowledge the divine, and bow their head to murmur a prayer in extremis.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,731
    edited December 2016

    isam said:



    isam said:

    x

    surbiton said:

    isam said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    isam said:

    wasd said:

    isam said:

    MaxPB said:

    First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

    But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

    Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.
    Impossible.

    In 50 years time there will be an Islamic state in the UK
    In 20 years the Middle East will be a starving wasteland as fracking, electric vehicles, climate change and the automation of basic manufacturing completely destroy their ability to feed themselves let alone export their ideology.
    So what? On present trends London will be Islamic in a generation or two, as will many other large towns and cities in England. Why do you think the people who aren't integrating now will start to when they are the majority? They will control whole towns and demand some kind of devolution in all probability.
    Numbers please.

    1991 400k Muslims in London out of 6.8m overall population = 5.8%
    2001 607k out of 7.3m = 8.3%
    2011 1.02 out of 8.2m = 12.4%

    I think on those numbers it is fair to estimate 50% being achieved by 2066
    The birth rate will fall like they did with every immigrant populations over the years and with Muslims too.
    We have record numbers still arriving through immigration, let alone breeding
    Yet still the total numbers are <5% of the national population. How you think it will go from <5% to >50% in half a century is beyond me.
    Did I say the country would be 50% Muslim? No I didn't
    No you said there would be Quote "an Islamic State in the UK". Nations with an "Islamic state" are typically over 90% Muslim. I gave benefit of the doubt and rounded down to 50%.

    If you meant less than that then how little did you mean?
    There are already parts of London with a Muslim majority, and the younger age ranges more so. I reckon by 2066 London will be 40-60% Muslim, and, as we know segregation is rife, large parts will be over 90%

    It wouldn't surprise me if these areas demanded some kind of devolved status, perhaps backed by a foreign country. Feel free to disagree it's just my opinion, as is yours.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    matt said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    I will be interested to hear how you find Switzerland vs here (said from no particular knowledge save as a frequent visitor).

    They have a harder line on integration and education. Immigrants must all learn the language to engage with the state and there are no benefits without speaking German, French or Italian. Translation is to one of the four official languages and English anyone who wants additional translation must do it themselves and then have it notarised at the own expense.

    It's a system that works IMO, but really it's because we don't have the basics like education and language in place it won't work here.
    It's also one of the, if not the, smuggest, dullest, least dynamic, most tax evadery countries I've seen. Geneva is, more do than London, the spiritual home of corrupt Arabs.

    Loathsome place.
    Good money though. :D
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    MaxPB said:

    matt said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    I will be interested to hear how you find Switzerland vs here (said from no particular knowledge save as a frequent visitor).

    They have a harder line on integration and education. Immigrants must all learn the language to engage with the state and there are no benefits without speaking German, French or Italian. Translation is to one of the four official languages and English anyone who wants additional translation must do it themselves and then have it notarised at the own expense.

    It's a system that works IMO, but really it's because we don't have the basics like education and language in place it won't work here.
    It's also one of the, if not the, smuggest, dullest, least dynamic, most tax evadery countries I've seen. Geneva is, more do than London, the spiritual home of corrupt Arabs.

    Loathsome place.
    Good money though. :D
    Honestly, it's really, really dull. Incredibly parochial as well.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    MP_SE said:

    viewcode said:

    MP_SE said:

    I also bought Dune which I am really really looking forward to. There are not many films which give me goosebumps but that is one of them. Bit of a marmite movie as far as reviews go.

    Dune (the movie) is brilliantly designed and cast (Rhoda's dad as Baron Harkonnen! Freddie Jones and Brad Dourif in the same room! Sting's pants!) but the script and direction are awful, awful, awful.

    The only other David Lynch movie I have seen is Mulholland Drive. Whilst a very good film it seemed like a bit of a mess at times.
    Lynch is known for regarding structure as...optional. I think he was the one who said to make a film, just write ~70 scenes on post-it notes and film them. He's most accessible when he does stick to narrative (Elephant Man) but I do like some of his less accessible works like "Twin Peaks:FWWM" and "Lost Highway". However he has made (too?) many films that it's just impossible to sit thru (Eraserhead!). He's defacto retired now: I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing...
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Just be aware that in the last handful of days there has been an increase in the volume of IS adherents at least threatening attacks on the UK.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    matt said:

    MaxPB said:

    matt said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    I will be interested to hear how you find Switzerland vs here (said from no particular knowledge save as a frequent visitor).

    They have a harder line on integration and education. Immigrants must all learn the language to engage with the state and there are no benefits without speaking German, French or Italian. Translation is to one of the four official languages and English anyone who wants additional translation must do it themselves and then have it notarised at the own expense.

    It's a system that works IMO, but really it's because we don't have the basics like education and language in place it won't work here.
    It's also one of the, if not the, smuggest, dullest, least dynamic, most tax evadery countries I've seen. Geneva is, more do than London, the spiritual home of corrupt Arabs.

    Loathsome place.
    Good money though. :D
    Honestly, it's really, really dull. Incredibly parochial as well.
    I've been to Zurich a lot and generally found it alright, the restaurant scene could be better but overall it is passable. The issue for me is that everything is a step down from London.
  • @AndyJS That's an incredibly western perspective. Arguably the vast bulk of the planet is having a religious revival. There is certainly no evidence of a decline of religion outside the west. And in the US it's declining from an extraordinarily high atypically western base.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    It's several steps down from FrankfurtAM. Never mind London.
  • viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    MaxPB said:

    ...Religion is a choice...

    Four thousand years of human history says otherwise.

    Four thousand?

    And how do you explain atheism/agnosticism?
    If I remember correctly, human history is a bit wobbly prior to 2000BC. If I looked it up I wouldn't be surprised if we could push it back to, say, 5000BC, which would make it seven thousand years. Am I inaccurate here?

    MaxPB makes a valid point as to choice - a religion can be rejected or chosen - but I also make a valid point as to birth: the religion of a child is imposed by the parent and rarely fully rejected in adulthood. It's like nationality: one can choose differently and many do so, but mostly do not. To present religion solely as a choice is to miss something about humans.

    [edit: correct name]
    Human history goes back a long way past 5000BC. Anatomically modern humans first left the Horn of Africa some 90,000 years ago.

    And I ask again - how do you explain atheism/agnosticism?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    Human history goes back a long way past 5000BC. Anatomically modern humans first left the Horn of Africa some 90,000 years ago.

    Sorry, I meant "times when we had a fairly clear idea of how their societies organised themselves, to the point of knowing the names of their kings, the religions they followed, and/or the streets they built", nor "times for which we have knowledge the society existed but little information other than that". I tend to take Egypt as a cutoff, whether the Middle Kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Kingdom_of_Egypt ) or further back, say to the start of the Bronze Age. But YMMV.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    And I ask again - how do you explain atheism/agnosticism?

    Well sorry, Sunil Paxman... :)

    Atheism/agnosticism is one of the choices made by adults when the discrepancies between their birth religion and their everyday realities become apparent. It doesn't contradict my point that parents' religions are given to their children.
  • viewcode said:

    Human history goes back a long way past 5000BC. Anatomically modern humans first left the Horn of Africa some 90,000 years ago.

    Sorry, I meant "times when we had a fairly clear idea of how their societies organised themselves, to the point of knowing the names of their kings, the religions they followed, and/or the streets they built", nor "times for which we have knowledge the society existed but little information other than that". I tend to take Egypt as a cutoff, whether the Middle Kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Kingdom_of_Egypt ) or further back, say to the start of the Bronze Age. But YMMV.
    And I ask again - how do you explain atheism/agnosticism?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    MaxPB said:

    matt said:

    MaxPB said:

    matt said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    I will be interested to hear how you find Switzerland vs here (said from no particular knowledge save as a frequent visitor).

    They have a harder line on integration and education. Immigrants must all learn the language to engage with the state and there are no benefits without speaking German, French or Italian. Translation is to one of the four official languages and English anyone who wants additional translation must do it themselves and then have it notarised at the own expense.

    It's a system that works IMO, but really it's because we don't have the basics like education and language in place it won't work here.
    It's also one of the, if not the, smuggest, dullest, least dynamic, most tax evadery countries I've seen. Geneva is, more do than London, the spiritual home of corrupt Arabs.

    Loathsome place.
    Good money though. :D
    Honestly, it's really, really dull. Incredibly parochial as well.
    I've been to Zurich a lot and generally found it alright, the restaurant scene could be better but overall it is passable. The issue for me is that everything is a step down from London.
    Would you include US cities in that like New York; DC or San Francisco?
  • MaxPB said:

    First not to be surprised, either at the attack or the target.

    But what doescracking down on the Islamists actually mean? and how does it differ from what we are already doing in Iraq, Syria and the streets of Britain?

    Mass deportations. Importing a violent and alien culture into the west has been a disaster, time to get rid of those who don't want to live by our values.
    As Queen Bess asked "should we make windows into mens souls?"
    She didn't 'ask' - she stated "I would not open windows into men's souls."
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    edited December 2016

    viewcode said:

    Human history goes back a long way past 5000BC. Anatomically modern humans first left the Horn of Africa some 90,000 years ago.

    Sorry, I meant "times when we had a fairly clear idea of how their societies organised themselves, to the point of knowing the names of their kings, the religions they followed, and/or the streets they built", nor "times for which we have knowledge the society existed but little information other than that". I tend to take Egypt as a cutoff, whether the Middle Kingdom (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Kingdom_of_Egypt ) or further back, say to the start of the Bronze Age. But YMMV.
    And I ask again - how do you explain atheism/agnosticism?
    I must refer my impulsive friend to the answer I gave a few moments ago
  • viewcode said:

    And I ask again - how do you explain atheism/agnosticism?

    Well sorry, Sunil Paxman... :)

    Atheism/agnosticism is one of the choices made by adults when the discrepancies between their birth religion and their everyday realities become apparent. It doesn't contradict my point that parents' religions are given to their children.
    So who is forcing people to be of a certain faith in multicultural Britain?
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    rkrkrk said:

    MaxPB said:

    matt said:

    MaxPB said:

    matt said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    I will be interested to hear how you find Switzerland vs here (said from no particular knowledge save as a frequent visitor).

    They have a harder line on integration and education. Immigrants must all learn the language to engage with the state and there are no benefits without speaking German, French or Italian. Translation is to one of the four official languages and English anyone who wants additional translation must do it themselves and then have it notarised at the own expense.

    It's a system that works IMO, but really it's because we don't have the basics like education and language in place it won't work here.
    It's also one of the, if not the, smuggest, dullest, least dynamic, most tax evadery countries I've seen. Geneva is, more do than London, the spiritual home of corrupt Arabs.

    Loathsome place.
    Good money though. :D
    Honestly, it's really, really dull. Incredibly parochial as well.
    I've been to Zurich a lot and generally found it alright, the restaurant scene could be better but overall it is passable. The issue for me is that everything is a step down from London.
    Would you include US cities in that like New York; DC or San Francisco?
    The US problem, and advantage, is that enough cities are large enough, and have sufficient economic strength to have some of the things that make London desirable, but not all of them. Within the U.K., London exerts such a strong gravitational pull that no other British city even begins to confirm close in, for example, culture, food and connectivity. Centralisation has strengths and weaknesses.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    viewcode said:

    And I ask again - how do you explain atheism/agnosticism?

    Well sorry, Sunil Paxman... :)

    Atheism/agnosticism is one of the choices made by adults when the discrepancies between their birth religion and their everyday realities become apparent. It doesn't contradict my point that parents' religions are given to their children.
    So who is forcing people to be of a certain faith in multicultural Britain?
    Their parents. At birth. Sorry, is this not self-evident? Are you seriously contending that children are bought up as atheists and choose their religion at adulthood?
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    edited December 2016
    It was stated up thread that Legard was not convicted of anything and even a barbed remark why let facts get in the way.....

    "A French court has found International Monetary Fund chief Christine Lagarde GUILTY of negligence but did not hand down any punishment.
    As French finance minister in 2008, she approved an award of €404m ($429m; £340m) to businessman Bernard Tapie for the disputed sale of a firm"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-38369822

    So she was found guilty the court just let her off without even a slap on the wrist but a friendly wave and she carries on as if nothing had happened. #lawsareonlyforlittlepeople
  • viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    And I ask again - how do you explain atheism/agnosticism?

    Well sorry, Sunil Paxman... :)

    Atheism/agnosticism is one of the choices made by adults when the discrepancies between their birth religion and their everyday realities become apparent. It doesn't contradict my point that parents' religions are given to their children.
    So who is forcing people to be of a certain faith in multicultural Britain?
    Their parents. At birth. Sorry, is this not self-evident? Are you seriously contending that children are bought up as atheists and choose their religion at adulthood?
    Some people convert you know...
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    And I ask again - how do you explain atheism/agnosticism?

    Well sorry, Sunil Paxman... :)

    Atheism/agnosticism is one of the choices made by adults when the discrepancies between their birth religion and their everyday realities become apparent. It doesn't contradict my point that parents' religions are given to their children.
    So who is forcing people to be of a certain faith in multicultural Britain?
    Their parents. At birth. Sorry, is this not self-evident? Are you seriously contending that children are bought up as atheists and choose their religion at adulthood?
    Some people convert you know...
    I know that. But it doesn't contradict my point.
  • viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    And I ask again - how do you explain atheism/agnosticism?

    Well sorry, Sunil Paxman... :)

    Atheism/agnosticism is one of the choices made by adults when the discrepancies between their birth religion and their everyday realities become apparent. It doesn't contradict my point that parents' religions are given to their children.
    So who is forcing people to be of a certain faith in multicultural Britain?
    Their parents. At birth. Sorry, is this not self-evident? Are you seriously contending that children are bought up as atheists and choose their religion at adulthood?
    Some people convert you know...
    I know that. But it doesn't contradict my point.
    The point about discrepancies between their birth religion and their everyday realities becoming apparent?

  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    And I ask again - how do you explain atheism/agnosticism?

    Well sorry, Sunil Paxman... :)

    Atheism/agnosticism is one of the choices made by adults when the discrepancies between their birth religion and their everyday realities become apparent. It doesn't contradict my point that parents' religions are given to their children.
    So who is forcing people to be of a certain faith in multicultural Britain?
    Their parents. At birth. Sorry, is this not self-evident? Are you seriously contending that children are bought up as atheists and choose their religion at adulthood?
    Some people convert you know...
    I know that. But it doesn't contradict my point.
    The point about discrepancies between their birth religion and their everyday realities becoming apparent?

    The point about parents giving their children a religion at birth.
  • Moses_Moses_ Posts: 4,865
    Sadly Various news agencies are now reporting the death toll at 12.
  • viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    And I ask again - how do you explain atheism/agnosticism?

    Well sorry, Sunil Paxman... :)

    Atheism/agnosticism is one of the choices made by adults when the discrepancies between their birth religion and their everyday realities become apparent. It doesn't contradict my point that parents' religions are given to their children.
    So who is forcing people to be of a certain faith in multicultural Britain?
    Their parents. At birth. Sorry, is this not self-evident? Are you seriously contending that children are bought up as atheists and choose their religion at adulthood?
    Some people convert you know...
    I know that. But it doesn't contradict my point.
    The point about discrepancies between their birth religion and their everyday realities becoming apparent?

    The point about parents giving their children a religion at birth.
    Not all parents are religious?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    viewcode said:

    And I ask again - how do you explain atheism/agnosticism?

    Well sorry, Sunil Paxman... :)

    Atheism/agnosticism is one of the choices made by adults when the discrepancies between their birth religion and their everyday realities become apparent. It doesn't contradict my point that parents' religions are given to their children.
    So who is forcing people to be of a certain faith in multicultural Britain?
    Their parents. At birth. Sorry, is this not self-evident? Are you seriously contending that children are bought up as atheists and choose their religion at adulthood?
    Some people convert you know...
    I know that. But it doesn't contradict my point.
    The point about discrepancies between their birth religion and their everyday realities becoming apparent?

    The point about parents giving their children a religion at birth.
    Not all parents are religious?
    Which doesn't contradict my point: namely, parents give their children a religion at birth.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    viewcode is right, its not so easy to just leave a religion, especially when that religion plays a huge part in your families identity and culture, also if you have been made to believe there is enternal hell fire awaiting you if you die the wrong religion and you have been taught this from a young age.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,922
    edited December 2016
    nunu said:

    viewcode is right, its not so easy to just leave a religion, especially when that religion plays a huge part in your families identity and culture, also if you have been made to believe there is enternal hell fire awaiting you if you die the wrong religion and you have been taught this from a young age.

    Nunu, you need to be reassured there is NOT "eternal hellfire" awaiting you!
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    nunu said:

    viewcode is right, its not so easy to just leave a religion, especially when that religion plays a huge part in your families identity and culture, also if you have been made to believe there is enternal hell fire awaiting you if you die the wrong religion and you have been taught this from a young age.

    Nunu, you need to be reassured there is NOT "eternal hellfire" awaiting you!
    I'd be interested to see you prove that... :(
  • PlatoSaidPlatoSaid Posts: 10,383
    David Lauter
    The final state votes. So with all in:
    304 Trump
    227 Clinton
    3 Colin Powell
    1 Bernie Sanders
    1 John Kasich
    1 Ron Paul
    1 Faith Spotted Eagle https://t.co/5apNrKt50V
  • AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852
    http://reason.com/blog/2016/12/19/ron-paul-faith-spotted-eagle

    The Electoral College voted today, bringing the weirdest election in generations to a suitably strange end. The final tally: 304 votes for Donald Trump, 227 for Hillary Clinton, three for Colin Powell, one for Ron Paul, one for Bernie Sanders, one for John Kasich, and one for anti-DAPL activist Faith Spotted Eagle. Trump was "supposed" to get 306, but two Republican electors in Texas broke with the pack, one voting for Kasich and one for Paul. Clinton was "supposed" to get 232, but four Democrats in Washington state and one in Hawaii decided to go rogue too. (The Sanders voter was the Hawaiian.)
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,047
    JWisemann said:

    The UK government dropping its long term alliance with international salafism would be a good start. This is a product of extremist wahabism, as promoted by May's bezzie mates in Saudi (and our genocidal jihadi allies that just got kicked out of Aleppo), not Islam in general.

    This.
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