I'm amazed that less that 24 hours after the first speech on Brexit by the PM, we have a 'settled' view on how bad the final deal will be. My goodness I hope none of the doomsayers are planning on conducting any negotiations in the future.
The only debate is who can save us - is it GO, Farron or Nick Clegg's wife...?
George obviously. He's the modern day Sir Winston Churchill.
Brexiteeers = The Appeasers, the Lord Halifax de nos jours
So George is going to defect to the Lib Dems over the principle of free trade (single market)?
No. He's not a dirty defecting rat. Better to stay in the tent pissing in.
not so much pissing as non-stop wind.
He'll have some powerful allies outside parliament. City for example.
you sort of miss the mood that out in the sticks nobody has much sympathy with corrupt banks we have to bail out, banks who seem to think moving jobs offshore will make them popular and multinats and HNW individuals who avoid their tax bills,
the City has to restablish its credentials with the electorate not the other way around.
If FoM was taken out of Single Market by EU - would we have another referendum?
No because the Leavers tell us the referendum wasn't about immigration/free movement but about sovereignty
And even if it were only about free movement, its just fantasy land politics, freedom of movement will be the very last concession prised from the cold dead fingers of the EU, they see it as their crowning glory.
When I was a student at Edinburgh I thought the Scots seemed a fine and sensible bunch, if a bit lefty. Today we see their national paper thinks: 'the EU, one of the most successful political and economic institutions of modern times Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?
Nats and a sizeable % of Scots see the EU as the only realistic source of socialism in the near future...
If you see any adverts for La La Land, take note – it’s a Hollywood musical, not a documentary about our future outside the EU.
But La La Land is what we entered yesterday when Theresa May stood in the gilt-lined long gallery of Lancaster House and disassembled Britain’s membership of the EU, one of the most successful political and economic institutions of modern times.
Appeasing the Brexiteers in May’s party and the small majority who voted to leave the EU has now become the priority over what is in Britain’s best interests.
Instead what? We should appease the minority who voted to Remain? The majority of the people in the biggest vote we have ever had voted for us to Leave the EU, to argue we should do otherwise is simply bonkers.
And no way would we be having the opposite arguments if Remain had won, there wouldn't be any "think of the Leavers as well" cries.
If FoM was taken out of Single Market by EU - would we have another referendum?
No because the Leavers tell us the referendum wasn't about immigration/free movement but about sovereignty
Pedantry demands that I correct you. Leavers motivations were all over the place. Some post-EUref surveys highlighted sovereignty, others immigration. I don't doubt that some folk saw it as a 'to return to the 80s press here' button.
I can't believe that the Leavers on here (who are essentially the Rich Kids of PB) are in anyway representative of the electorate as a whole.
When I was a student at Edinburgh I thought the Scots seemed a fine and sensible bunch, if a bit lefty. Today we see their national paper thinks: 'the EU, one of the most successful political and economic institutions of modern times Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?
Nats and a sizeable % of Scots see the EU as the only realistic source of socialism in the near future...
You never got back to me re. acceptance of bets you proposed.
If you're going to continue slinging a deefy, I'll just have to assume you're a fearty, little clucker.
I accept May has shot a fox on the Single Market but whose ? She's undoubtedly denied the EU hounds a kill which simplifies and speeds things. But our fox is still dead. The most basic negotiating tactic is ask initially for more than what you'll settle for. If Single Market membership is so delusional as to not be worth an opening bid to be discarded later then why does the line of compromise not just fall further back. The value judgement remains the same. Did we benefit from SM membership ? If not fine. If we did then yesterday was a bad day. There is a bit too much of a Brown/Osborne Budget Day about some of this analysis. The psychological impact of the speech and the press coverage will be forgotten next week. It's the substance we need to analyse. It looks like May has had to sacrifice a piece to open up the board before the other player has made their first move. And yes I know you can't really do that in Chess. Which makes it a worrying analogy.
There's a difference between SM membership and SM access.
The latter is still on the table.
The EU has made clear that a modified membership was never available, so better to kill it off and move on.
But isn't that what negotiations are supposed to be for?
No, because it was giving a stick for (certain) EU politicians to beat us with.
Now we have taken the stick off them, and said: "look, be the EU, doesn't bother us; trade deal would be in all our interests, but if not, your loss."
This puts the UK back in the driving seat for the negotiations.
It was a mistake the SNP made in SIndyref - promising things not within their gift. If we'd tried to stay in the Single Market with control on movement (something Cameron tried half heartedly to negotiate and failed) we'd have wasted months of limited negotiations getting nowhere - so May has been clear on priorities (and has been from the start) and the consequences follow...
If FoM was taken out of Single Market by EU - would we have another referendum?
No because the Leavers tell us the referendum wasn't about immigration/free movement but about sovereignty
Pedantry demands that I correct you. Leavers motivations were all over the place. Some post-EUref surveys highlighted sovereignty, others immigration. I don't doubt that some folk saw it as a 'to return to the 80s press here' button.
I can't believe that the Leavers on here (who are essentially the Rich Kids of PB) are in anyway representative of the electorate as a whole.
It is impossible to know why people voted individually.
But May intuited that collectively it was about immigration and hence made FoM her red line.
And she has been generally thought right to do so.
If FoM was taken out of Single Market by EU - would we have another referendum?
No because the Leavers tell us the referendum wasn't about immigration/free movement but about sovereignty
Pedantry demands that I correct you. Leavers motivations were all over the place. Some post-EUref surveys highlighted sovereignty, others immigration. I don't doubt that some folk saw it as a 'to return to the 80s press here' button.
I can't believe that the Leavers on here (who are essentially the Rich Kids of PB) are in anyway representative of the electorate as a whole.
Leavers were a rag bag with contradictory aims. They won because they didn't have to choose just one of the destinations they offered. Now May and co do have to choose one and it's going to be worse than Remaining, hopefully not too much worse.
When I was a student at Edinburgh I thought the Scots seemed a fine and sensible bunch, if a bit lefty. Today we see their national paper thinks: 'the EU, one of the most successful political and economic institutions of modern times Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?
As with all drafting, the key is defining your terms.
The curious thing about yesterday is where all the Vote Leave so we can join the EEA voices have gone. Are they happy the with way they've been used?
Some of them were saying membership of the EEA is our inalienable right. Nothing will change Syu there's nothing to discuss. Now they are saying deal or no deal, out is better than in. There's still nothing to discuss.
I guess none of us can claim to be totally consistent!
I can't believe that the Leavers on here (who are essentially the Rich Kids of PB) are in anyway representative of the electorate as a whole.
The EEA crowd are the rich kids. The Kipper set are mostly not rich. People who want a level playing field of all talented immigrants are largely not rich.
When I was a student at Edinburgh I thought the Scots seemed a fine and sensible bunch, if a bit lefty. Today we see their national paper thinks: 'the EU, one of the most successful political and economic institutions of modern times Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?
Nats and a sizeable % of Scots see the EU as the only realistic source of socialism in the near future...
You never got back to me re. acceptance of bets you proposed.
If you're going to continue slinging a deefy, I'll just have to assume you're a fearty, little clucker.
Evens that there is no date set for a referendum by 31st Dec 2018 ? (The referendum date can be after that but has to be set).
If FoM was taken out of Single Market by EU - would we have another referendum?
No because the Leavers tell us the referendum wasn't about immigration/free movement but about sovereignty
Pedantry demands that I correct you. Leavers motivations were all over the place. Some post-EUref surveys highlighted sovereignty, others immigration. I don't doubt that some folk saw it as a 'to return to the 80s press here' button.
I can't believe that the Leavers on here (who are essentially the Rich Kids of PB) are in anyway representative of the electorate as a whole.
Would it then be fair to say that without those voters preoccupied with immigration, Leave would have lost, and lost badly?
ONS @ONS 12m12 minutes ago Employment rate (for people 16-64yrs) 74.5% for Sep-Nov 2016, up from 74.0% a yr earlier http://ow.ly/92Ax3086UYQ
ONS @ONS 12m12 minutes ago For Sep-Nov 2016 wages up 2.8% on a year including bonuses and 2.7% on a year excluding bonuses http://ow.ly/92Ax3086UYQ
Clearly it's all those immigrants taking our jobs.
Right now is a golden moment for the UK economy: Exporters are benefiting from the reduction in sterling; the same fall hasn't quite yet headed through to substantially higher inflation (~1.6% is nothing to write home about); we're still in the single market and people are seeing that the sun rises in morning post Brexit - interest rates being at 0.25% are also helping. The FTSE is benefiting from sterling's fall.
Following however: The reduction in sterling will become 'baked in' so the benefit to exporters will lessen from the initial boost, the fall in sterling 'simply must' feed through to some real inflation (Signs of this are starting to creep in), we will be out of the single market so trading conditions will change, interest rates will surely rise in order to keep sterling tanking too far, the counterfactual will be worse than it otherwise would have been on a strictly economic basis to staying in the single market. The FTSE sugar rush will die down.
If FoM was taken out of Single Market by EU - would we have another referendum?
No because the Leavers tell us the referendum wasn't about immigration/free movement but about sovereignty
Pedantry demands that I correct you. Leavers motivations were all over the place. Some post-EUref surveys highlighted sovereignty, others immigration. I don't doubt that some folk saw it as a 'to return to the 80s press here' button.
I can't believe that the Leavers on here (who are essentially the Rich Kids of PB) are in anyway representative of the electorate as a whole.
It is impossible to know why people voted individually.
But May intuited that collectively it was about immigration and hence made FoM her red line.
And she has been generally thought right to do so.
Yes. Every pronouncement by May's govt has explained that "the people voted to control immigration."
@isam will be on here shortly to say that the jobs are all being taken by furriners and the cream of WWC manhood have been reduced to daddy daycare.
No I don't believe that last bit for a minute... but the fact that 5 times as many low paid men are working part time as 20 years ago probably helps the employment figures look better than they are.
I'm amazed that less that 24 hours after the first speech on Brexit by the PM, we have a 'settled' view on how bad the final deal will be. My goodness I hope none of the doomsayers are planning on conducting any negotiations in the future.
I predict there is a good chance that FoM will have been revised during the negotiations. The French will not wear it any longer either and I doubt they will be the only ones.
Could we yet stay in a reformed Single Market?
I can see a chance, yes, that the EU reforms FoM and that it slowly dawns on business friendly Tories that we are better off In.
I give it maybe 10% chance, even though it is probably the most beneficial outcome for both us *and* the EU 27.
I think the problem with that - as I have said before - is that it encapsulates a strong degree of arrogance by the British that they think the EU should change to suit them. Why should we be telling the other 27 countries what their objectives and aspirations should be and how they should run their club? Better to accept that we do not share their aims and just move on.
Except that improvement on FoM in particular is actually in the EU 27's interests, else Le Pen, Grillo, etc.
You seem to be confusing freedom of movement with migration from outside the EU. Are you sure you are not a kipper in disguise?
The two things are interrelated, as those who cite Merkel's asylum policy as the reason we Brexited, intuit.
Leave has been so successful in provoking a Pavlovian emotional response that most leavers no longer even know why they voted Leave or what the arguments were.
@isam will be on here shortly to say that the jobs are all being taken by furriners and the cream of WWC manhood have been reduced to daddy daycare.
No I don't believe that last bit for a minute... but the fact that 5 times as many low paid men are working part time as 20 years ago probably helps the employment figures look better than they are.
I'm amazed that less that 24 hours after the first speech on Brexit by the PM, we have a 'settled' view on how bad the final deal will be. My goodness I hope none of the doomsayers are planning on conducting any negotiations in the future.
I predict there is a good chance that FoM will have been revised during the negotiations. The French will not wear it any longer either and I doubt they will be the only ones.
Could we yet stay in a reformed Single Market?
I can see a chance, yes, that the EU reforms FoM and that it slowly dawns on business friendly Tories that we are better off In.
I give it maybe 10% chance, even though it is probably the most beneficial outcome for both us *and* the EU 27.
I think the problem with that - as I have said before - is that it encapsulates a strong degree of arrogance by the British that they think the EU should change to suit them. Why should we be telling the other 27 countries what their objectives and aspirations should be and how they should run their club? Better to accept that we do not share their aims and just move on.
Except that improvement on FoM in particular is actually in the EU 27's interests, else Le Pen, Grillo, etc.
You seem to be confusing freedom of movement with migration from outside the EU. Are you sure you are not a kipper in disguise?
The two things are interrelated, as those who cite Merkel's asylum policy as the reason we Brexited, intuit.
Leave has been so successful in provoking a Pavlovian emotional response that most leavers no longer even know why they voted Leave or what the arguments were.
I think this is actually an important point.
If I had to divine the general public's mood we want to get on and Brexit already and a thankful to May for setting a direction.
But we've already forgotten why we were so mardy, and as Brexit becomes *a* thing, rather than *some* thing, the opportunity to move public opinion against Brexit will grow.
But we Remainers will have to be a lot more imaginative than we have been. Remainerism has to be sold as a patriotic endeavour, not the "bankster's favourite".
If FoM was taken out of Single Market by EU - would we have another referendum?
No because the Leavers tell us the referendum wasn't about immigration/free movement but about sovereignty
Pedantry demands that I correct you. Leavers motivations were all over the place. Some post-EUref surveys highlighted sovereignty, others immigration. I don't doubt that some folk saw it as a 'to return to the 80s press here' button.
I can't believe that the Leavers on here (who are essentially the Rich Kids of PB) are in anyway representative of the electorate as a whole.
Would it then be fair to say that without those voters preoccupied with immigration, Leave would have lost, and lost badly?
You are trying to suggest that everyone that claimed they voted for immigration had the same concerns about immigration, or indeed that immigration was the only reason they voted. I for one dont want immigration increased, or decreased, I just want it to be in the control of the British people not the EU. The voters can elect a party that gives them the immigration result they are comfortable with.
If FoM was taken out of Single Market by EU - would we have another referendum?
No because the Leavers tell us the referendum wasn't about immigration/free movement but about sovereignty
Pedantry demands that I correct you. Leavers motivations were all over the place. Some post-EUref surveys highlighted sovereignty, others immigration. I don't doubt that some folk saw it as a 'to return to the 80s press here' button.
I can't believe that the Leavers on here (who are essentially the Rich Kids of PB) are in anyway representative of the electorate as a whole.
Would it then be fair to say that without those voters preoccupied with immigration, Leave would have lost, and lost badly?
I'm loathe to make assertions, but given the margin of victory, it seems reasonable to lay it at the door of the Do Not Normally Vote. IIRC there were upwards of two million of 'em.
I'm sure passions will moderate in time, but one of the many downsides to referendums is that they're so polarising. I doubt every Remain voter is a slavering quisling Europhile, humming 'Ode to Joy' while they brush their teeth, any more than Leave voters are all racists who hanker back to the days of Empire and wish all the Muslimics would bugger off.
When I was a student at Edinburgh I thought the Scots seemed a fine and sensible bunch, if a bit lefty. Today we see their national paper thinks: 'the EU, one of the most successful political and economic institutions of modern times Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?
Nats and a sizeable % of Scots see the EU as the only realistic source of socialism in the near future...
You never got back to me re. acceptance of bets you proposed.
If you're going to continue slinging a deefy, I'll just have to assume you're a fearty, little clucker.
Evens that there is no date set for a referendum by 31st Dec 2018 ? (The referendum date can be after that but has to be set).
2020 too far out for a sensible bet .
31st Dec 2020 is the deadline set by the only 2 bookies with a market on it, but if that's too risky for you, £100 on a referendum being set by Holyrood by 31st Dec 2018. If May blocks it, you win, but I'll also have a £100 saver on your proposition that 'Nippy resigns permanently in protest at May blocking one'.
@JohnRentoul: David Davis says Brexit won't be quite as bad as WW2. Have I got that right?
He obviously reads PB. We also established it was not as bad as a global influenza pandemic yesterday.
The point was that leaving the EU is not even remotely on a par with the sort of things that really are crises. By making out that leaving the EU is catastrophe Remainers are getting nowhere with their arguments, as Leavers have quite reasonably decided to ignore such hand-wringing nonsense.
But we Remainers will have to be a lot more imaginative than we have been. Remainerism has to be sold as a patriotic endeavour, not the "bankster's favourite".
Good luck with that.
Firstly almost all the arguments made when the voters were listening in the short campaign before the referendum were about money, and worse than that they were about large corporations and banks losing money, not a matter close to the hearts of most voters.
Secondly, you are going to have to persuade people that it is patriotic to give a large amount of control of their country to a supranational body. Its patriotic to push vast numbers of low paid men into part time jobs, and its patriotic for people to feel that their culture is being eroded day by day, and they dont recognise the place they grew up in.
Thirdly, and most problematic, the Leave campaign from the start sold itself as a patriotic endeavor, that is the subtext of the brilliantly effective "Vote Leave - Take Control" slogan. At the same time the Remain campaign banged on endlessly on themes which amounted to "too poor too wee too stupid", at the time when voters were paying the closest attention.
I'm amazed that less that 24 hours after the first speech on Brexit by the PM, we have a 'settled' view on how bad the final deal will be. My goodness I hope none of the doomsayers are planning on conducting any negotiations in the future.
I predict there is a good chance that FoM will have been revised during the negotiations. The French will not wear it any longer either and I doubt they will be the only ones.
Could we yet stay in a reformed Single Market?
I can see a chance, yes, that the EU reforms FoM and that it slowly dawns on business friendly Tories that we are better off In.
I give it maybe 10% chance, even though it is probably the most beneficial outcome for both us *and* the EU 27.
I think the problem with that - as I have said before - is that it encapsulates a strong degree of arrogance by the British that they think the EU should change to suit them. Why should we be telling the other 27 countries what their objectives and aspirations should be and how they should run their club? Better to accept that we do not share their aims and just move on.
Except that improvement on FoM in particular is actually in the EU 27's interests, else Le Pen, Grillo, etc.
You seem to be confusing freedom of movement with migration from outside the EU. Are you sure you are not a kipper in disguise?
The two things are interrelated, as those who cite Merkel's asylum policy as the reason we Brexited, intuit.
But we Remainers will have to be a lot more imaginative than we have been. Remainerism has to be sold as a patriotic endeavour, not the "bankster's favourite".
Another person that voted remain is in denial - STILL
@PickardJE: Boris says it's not in Europe's interests to administer punishment beatings to "anyone who wants to escape, like a character in a WW2 movie"
If FoM was taken out of Single Market by EU - would we have another referendum?
No because the Leavers tell us the referendum wasn't about immigration/free movement but about sovereignty
Pedantry demands that I correct you. Leavers motivations were all over the place. Some post-EUref surveys highlighted sovereignty, others immigration. I don't doubt that some folk saw it as a 'to return to the 80s press here' button.
I can't believe that the Leavers on here (who are essentially the Rich Kids of PB) are in anyway representative of the electorate as a whole.
Would it then be fair to say that without those voters preoccupied with immigration, Leave would have lost, and lost badly?
You are trying to suggest that everyone that claimed they voted for immigration had the same concerns about immigration, or indeed that immigration was the only reason they voted. I for one dont want immigration increased, or decreased, I just want it to be in the control of the British people not the EU. The voters can elect a party that gives them the immigration result they are comfortable with.
I welcome your conversion to the concept of nuance.
Firstly almost all the arguments made when the voters were listening in the short campaign before the referendum were about money, and worse than that they were about large corporations and banks losing money, not a matter close to the hearts of most voters.
Remain were able to produce an endless queue of people the public hate to advocate remaining in the EU. It was impressively deluded.
@JohnRentoul: David Davis says Brexit won't be quite as bad as WW2. Have I got that right?
He obviously reads PB. We also established it was not as bad as a global influenza pandemic yesterday.
The point was that leaving the EU is not even remotely on a par with the sort of things that really are crises. By making out that leaving the EU is catastrophe Remainers are getting nowhere with their arguments, as Leavers have quite reasonably decided to ignore such hand-wringing nonsense.
Thank goodness Leavers never resort to that type of hand-wringing hyperbole when it comes to the EU(SSR).
The EEA Leavers were the Faragista's useful idiots. Rather than admit that to themselves, they've decided to go full-on nationalist themselves.
This is the interesting circle to square. They used the anti-immigration mood to get their precious sovereignty. Now they have it they don't mind that the collateral damage was both an unleashed anti-foreigner mood, and economic impairment for the country.
We are, at last, free to lower VAT on home energy supplies, and have escaped the oppressive yoke of droite de suite.
I'm intrigued by the new trend among Leavers. Having spent the last 25 years droning on about how the EU was the greatest evil known to mankind and how leaving it was the number one priority of world civilisation, they now are keen to suggest it's just a clerical matter and the details are jejune trifles that we shouldn't bore ourselves with.
No doubt psychiatrists the nation over are exploring this development.
But we Remainers will have to be a lot more imaginative than we have been. Remainerism has to be sold as a patriotic endeavour, not the "bankster's favourite".
Good luck with that.
Firstly almost all the arguments made when the voters were listening in the short campaign before the referendum were about money, and worse than that they were about large corporations and banks losing money, not a matter close to the hearts of most voters.
Secondly, you are going to have to persuade people that it is patriotic to give a large amount of control of their country to a supranational body. Its patriotic to push vast numbers of low paid men into part time jobs, and its patriotic for people to feel that their culture is being eroded day by day, and they dont recognise the place they grew up in.
Thirdly, and most problematic, the Leave campaign from the start sold itself as a patriotic endeavor, that is the subtext of the brilliantly effective "Vote Leave - Take Control" slogan. At the same time the Remain campaign banged on endlessly on themes which amounted to "too poor too wee too stupid", at the time when voters were paying the closest attention.
What is patriotic about big public spending cuts that affect the poorest most, fewer rights for working people, lower wages growth and pared back environmental standards?
Rhetoric has yet to turn to reality. We will see what patriots do when it does.
Firstly almost all the arguments made when the voters were listening in the short campaign before the referendum were about money, and worse than that they were about large corporations and banks losing money, not a matter close to the hearts of most voters.
Remain were able to produce an endless queue of people the public hate to advocate remaining in the EU. It was impressively deluded.
Even better, the people the public hate were largely rich people complaining they wouldnt be quite as rich if we left, but that the public shouldn't worry their little heads with the details and just vote Remain like good little proles.
When I was a student at Edinburgh I thought the Scots seemed a fine and sensible bunch, if a bit lefty. Today we see their national paper thinks: 'the EU, one of the most successful political and economic institutions of modern times Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?
Nats and a sizeable % of Scots see the EU as the only realistic source of socialism in the near future...
You never got back to me re. acceptance of bets you proposed.
If you're going to continue slinging a deefy, I'll just have to assume you're a fearty, little clucker.
Evens that there is no date set for a referendum by 31st Dec 2018 ? (The referendum date can be after that but has to be set).
2020 too far out for a sensible bet .
31st Dec 2020 is the deadline set by the only 2 bookies with a market on it, but if that's too risky for you, £100 on a referendum being set by Holyrood by 31st Dec 2018. If May blocks it, you win, but I'll also have a £100 saver on your proposition that 'Nippy resigns permanently in protest at May blocking one'.
I'll take the bet on Holyrood setting a referendum with a specific date by end of 2018.
Nicola giving up her FM stipend on by her own volition seems an unattractive bet on reflection.
The EEA Leavers were the Faragista's useful idiots. Rather than admit that to themselves, they've decided to go full-on nationalist themselves.
This is the interesting circle to square. They used the anti-immigration mood to get their precious sovereignty. Now they have it they don't mind that the collateral damage was both an unleashed anti-foreigner mood, and economic impairment for the country.
We are, at last, free to lower VAT on home energy supplies, and have escaped the oppressive yoke of droite de suite.
The alternative is to admit to themselves that they behaved appallingly. I suppose that they're not ready for that yet.
I'm intrigued by the new trend among Leavers. Having spent the last 25 years droning on about how the EU was the greatest evil known to mankind and how leaving it was the number one priority of world civilisation, they now are keen to suggest it's just a clerical matter and the details are jejune trifles that we shouldn't bore ourselves with.
No doubt psychiatrists the nation over are exploring this development.
My greatest worry over all this is that the EU has been set up as the source of so many of people's problems e.g. low wages, zero-hours, crap housing, rubbish schools, NHS not enough money, Syrians pouring into the country etc etc. So when none of these things gets remotely better when we leave - who they gonna blame next?
When I was a student at Edinburgh I thought the Scots seemed a fine and sensible bunch, if a bit lefty. Today we see their national paper thinks: 'the EU, one of the most successful political and economic institutions of modern times Did IQs just drop sharply while I was away?
Nats and a sizeable % of Scots see the EU as the only realistic source of socialism in the near future...
You never got back to me re. acceptance of bets you proposed.
If you're going to continue slinging a deefy, I'll just have to assume you're a fearty, little clucker.
Evens that there is no date set for a referendum by 31st Dec 2018 ? (The referendum date can be after that but has to be set).
2020 too far out for a sensible bet .
31st Dec 2020 is the deadline set by the only 2 bookies with a market on it, but if that's too risky for you, £100 on a referendum being set by Holyrood by 31st Dec 2018. If May blocks it, you win, but I'll also have a £100 saver on your proposition that 'Nippy resigns permanently in protest at May blocking one'.
I'll take the bet on Holyrood setting a referendum with a specific date by end of 2018.
Nicola giving up her FM stipend on by her own volition seems an unattractive bet on reflection.
I'm glad to have encouraged even a modicum of reflection within you.
Wtf. Leavers, take your blood pressure pills before reading this tweet:
Alain de BottonVerified account @alaindebotton Amazing the kind of politics you can engineer when you systematically underfund a nation's education system for a generation.
The EEA Leavers were the Faragista's useful idiots. Rather than admit that to themselves, they've decided to go full-on nationalist themselves.
This is the interesting circle to square. They used the anti-immigration mood to get their precious sovereignty. Now they have it they don't mind that the collateral damage was both an unleashed anti-foreigner mood, and economic impairment for the country.
We are, at last, free to lower VAT on home energy supplies, and have escaped the oppressive yoke of droite de suite.
The alternative is to admit to themselves that they behaved appallingly. I suppose that they're not ready for that yet.
Their peculiar psychology is the only evidence there is for the UK/England being 'just different, so it's likely to be the last thing they face up to.
I'm intrigued by the new trend among Leavers. Having spent the last 25 years droning on about how the EU was the greatest evil known to mankind and how leaving it was the number one priority of world civilisation, they now are keen to suggest it's just a clerical matter and the details are jejune trifles that we shouldn't bore ourselves with.
No doubt psychiatrists the nation over are exploring this development.
My greatest worry over all this is that the EU has been set up as the source of so many of people's problems e.g. low wages, zero-hours, crap housing, rubbish schools, NHS not enough money, Syrians pouring into the country etc etc. So when none of these things gets remotely better when we leave - who they gonna blame next?
The government of the day, where we have the opportunity to change them every 4/5 years
edited extra bit - plus they wouldn't be able to hide behind - 'EU regulations forced us to do it'
The EEA Leavers were the Faragista's useful idiots. Rather than admit that to themselves, they've decided to go full-on nationalist themselves.
This is the interesting circle to square. They used the anti-immigration mood to get their precious sovereignty. Now they have it they don't mind that the collateral damage was both an unleashed anti-foreigner mood, and economic impairment for the country.
We are, at last, free to lower VAT on home energy supplies, and have escaped the oppressive yoke of droite de suite.
The alternative is to admit to themselves that they behaved appallingly. I suppose that they're not ready for that yet.
I don't know about you but I'm still waiting for the higher wages that Remain promised us if we vote Leave.
Firstly almost all the arguments made when the voters were listening in the short campaign before the referendum were about money, and worse than that they were about large corporations and banks losing money, not a matter close to the hearts of most voters.
Remain were able to produce an endless queue of people the public hate to advocate remaining in the EU. It was impressively deluded.
Yes - one wonders why if they are such a poor judge of advocates why they are surprised when nobody values their opinions.
"Trust me - I think a rich CEO and a Human Rights lawyer are the best people to sell our message to the general public"
Wtf. Leavers, take your blood pressure pills before reading this tweet:
Alain de BottonVerified account @alaindebotton Amazing the kind of politics you can engineer when you systematically underfund a nation's education system for a generation.
What is patriotic about big public spending cuts that affect the poorest most, fewer rights for working people, lower wages growth and pared back environmental standards?
Rhetoric has yet to turn to reality. We will see what patriots do when it does.
Only yesterday May said workers rights would be fully protected and enshrined in UK law.
Firstly almost all the arguments made when the voters were listening in the short campaign before the referendum were about money, and worse than that they were about large corporations and banks losing money, not a matter close to the hearts of most voters.
Remain were able to produce an endless queue of people the public hate to advocate remaining in the EU. It was impressively deluded.
Yes - one wonders why if they are such a poor judge of advocates why they are surprised when nobody values their opinions.
"Trust me - I think a rich CEO and a Human Rights lawyer are the best people to sell our message to the general public"
Baffling.
To be fair, it worked in America where a human rights lawyer is about to be replaced in the White House by a rich CEO.
Wtf. Leavers, take your blood pressure pills before reading this tweet:
Alain de BottonVerified account @alaindebotton Amazing the kind of politics you can engineer when you systematically underfund a nation's education system for a generation.
ONS @ONS 12m12 minutes ago Employment rate (for people 16-64yrs) 74.5% for Sep-Nov 2016, up from 74.0% a yr earlier http://ow.ly/92Ax3086UYQ
ONS @ONS 12m12 minutes ago For Sep-Nov 2016 wages up 2.8% on a year including bonuses and 2.7% on a year excluding bonuses http://ow.ly/92Ax3086UYQ
Bloody foreigners, coming here and contributing to an overall benign employment and wage environment.
Schrodingers immigants simultaneously taking our jobs and dole bludging...
High employment and rising wages does set the scence for inflation though, and one wonders how we manage to run such a massive budget deficit in such a benign economic environment.
Wtf. Leavers, take your blood pressure pills before reading this tweet:
Alain de BottonVerified account @alaindebotton Amazing the kind of politics you can engineer when you systematically underfund a nation's education system for a generation.
Which generation? Children of the 1950s/60s?
you can feel the elite sneering arrogance dripping from them.
I'm intrigued by the new trend among Leavers. Having spent the last 25 years droning on about how the EU was the greatest evil known to mankind and how leaving it was the number one priority of world civilisation, they now are keen to suggest it's just a clerical matter and the details are jejune trifles that we shouldn't bore ourselves with.
No doubt psychiatrists the nation over are exploring this development.
My greatest worry over all this is that the EU has been set up as the source of so many of people's problems e.g. low wages, zero-hours, crap housing, rubbish schools, NHS not enough money, Syrians pouring into the country etc etc. So when none of these things gets remotely better when we leave - who they gonna blame next?
Wtf. Leavers, take your blood pressure pills before reading this tweet:
Alain de BottonVerified account @alaindebotton Amazing the kind of politics you can engineer when you systematically underfund a nation's education system for a generation.
Fck, don't want to be a member of a club that includes de Botton. I'll take Harris though.
Wtf. Leavers, take your blood pressure pills before reading this tweet:
Alain de BottonVerified account @alaindebotton Amazing the kind of politics you can engineer when you systematically underfund a nation's education system for a generation.
Wtf. Leavers, take your blood pressure pills before reading this tweet:
Alain de BottonVerified account @alaindebotton Amazing the kind of politics you can engineer when you systematically underfund a nation's education system for a generation.
Which generation? Children of the 1950s/60s?
Great point, younger voters trended to remain. What is De Botton's point here ?
Wtf. Leavers, take your blood pressure pills before reading this tweet:
Alain de BottonVerified account @alaindebotton Amazing the kind of politics you can engineer when you systematically underfund a nation's education system for a generation.
Fck, don't want to be a member of club that includes de Botton. I'll take Harris though.
I'm amazed that less that 24 hours after the first speech on Brexit by the PM, we have a 'settled' view on how bad the final deal will be. My goodness I hope none of the doomsayers are planning on conducting any negotiations in the future.
I predict there is a good chance that FoM will have been revised during the negotiations. The French will not wear it any longer either and I doubt they will be the only ones.
Could we yet stay in a reformed Single Market?
I can see a chance, yes, that the EU reforms FoM and that it slowly dawns on business friendly Tories that we are better off In.
I give it maybe 10% chance, even though it is probably the most beneficial outcome for both us *and* the EU 27.
So long as we can keep control over agriculture, fisheries, commercial policy and our external tariff...
There is no chance that we would stay - the argument will be "OK the EU have moved in our direction, however there is no guarantee that they wont shift their position"
Yes - one wonders why if they are such a poor judge of advocates why they are surprised when nobody values their opinions.
"Trust me - I think a rich CEO and a Human Rights lawyer are the best people to sell our message to the general public"
Baffling.
I doesn't make any sense. It's not as though it was a few slip-ups, they did the same thing again and again, from the very start to the very end of the campaign. God knows who was in the focus groups they used, assuming they even tested this stuff.
But we Remainers will have to be a lot more imaginative than we have been. Remainerism has to be sold as a patriotic endeavour, not the "bankster's favourite".
Good luck with that.
Firstly almost all the arguments made when the voters were listening in the short campaign before the referendum were about money, and worse than that they were about large corporations and banks losing money, not a matter close to the hearts of most voters.
Secondly, you are going to have to persuade people that it is patriotic to give a large amount of control of their country to a supranational body. Its patriotic to push vast numbers of low paid men into part time jobs, and its patriotic for people to feel that their culture is being eroded day by day, and they dont recognise the place they grew up in.
Thirdly, and most problematic, the Leave campaign from the start sold itself as a patriotic endeavor, that is the subtext of the brilliantly effective "Vote Leave - Take Control" slogan. At the same time the Remain campaign banged on endlessly on themes which amounted to "too poor too wee too stupid", at the time when voters were paying the closest attention.
In the same way that Leavers used to blame every problem on the EU all Remainers will need to do in a couple of years is blame everything on Brexit. It will be an easy and successful strategy - after all we are only starting 3.8% behind. - there will be an anti-Brexit majority in the country by the next GE.
The EEA Leavers were the Faragista's useful idiots. Rather than admit that to themselves, they've decided to go full-on nationalist themselves.
This is the interesting circle to square. They used the anti-immigration mood to get their precious sovereignty. Now they have it they don't mind that the collateral damage was both an unleashed anti-foreigner mood, and economic impairment for the country.
We are, at last, free to lower VAT on home energy supplies, and have escaped the oppressive yoke of droite de suite.
The alternative is to admit to themselves that they behaved appallingly. I suppose that they're not ready for that yet.
I don't know about you but I'm still waiting for the higher wages that Remain promised us if we vote Leave.
For me that's a promise that seems to be coming true
But we Remainers will have to be a lot more imaginative than we have been. Remainerism has to be sold as a patriotic endeavour, not the "bankster's favourite".
Good luck with that.
Firstly almost all the arguments made when the voters were listening in the short campaign before the referendum were about money, and worse than that they were about large corporations and banks losing money, not a matter close to the hearts of most voters.
Secondly, you are going to have to persuade people that it is patriotic to give a large amount of control of their country to a supranational body. Its patriotic to push vast numbers of low paid men into part time jobs, and its patriotic for people to feel that their culture is being eroded day by day, and they dont recognise the place they grew up in.
Thirdly, and most problematic, the Leave campaign from the start sold itself as a patriotic endeavor, that is the subtext of the brilliantly effective "Vote Leave - Take Control" slogan. At the same time the Remain campaign banged on endlessly on themes which amounted to "too poor too wee too stupid", at the time when voters were paying the closest attention.
What is patriotic about big public spending cuts that affect the poorest most, fewer rights for working people, lower wages growth and pared back environmental standards?
Rhetoric has yet to turn to reality. We will see what patriots do when it does.
"big public spending cuts that affect the poorest most, fewer rights for working people, lower wages growth and pared back environmental standards?"
But we Remainers will have to be a lot more imaginative than we have been. Remainerism has to be sold as a patriotic endeavour, not the "bankster's favourite".
Good luck with that.
Firstly almost all the arguments made when the voters were listening in the short campaign before the referendum were about money, and worse than that they were about large corporations and banks losing money, not a matter close to the hearts of most voters.
Secondly, you are going to have to persuade people that it is patriotic to give a large amount of control of their country to a supranational body. Its patriotic to push vast numbers of low paid men into part time jobs, and its patriotic for people to feel that their culture is being eroded day by day, and they dont recognise the place they grew up in.
Thirdly, and most problematic, the Leave campaign from the start sold itself as a patriotic endeavor, that is the subtext of the brilliantly effective "Vote Leave - Take Control" slogan. At the same time the Remain campaign banged on endlessly on themes which amounted to "too poor too wee too stupid", at the time when voters were paying the closest attention.
In the same way that Leavers used to blame every problem on the EU all Remainers will need to do in a couple of years is blame everything on Brexit. It will be an easy and successful strategy - after all we are only starting 3.8% behind. - there will be an anti-Brexit majority in the country by the next GE.
"there will be an anti-Brexit majority in the country by the next GE."
Depends on turnout, I'd say it was odds against, mind.
Wtf. Leavers, take your blood pressure pills before reading this tweet:
Alain de BottonVerified account @alaindebotton Amazing the kind of politics you can engineer when you systematically underfund a nation's education system for a generation.
Which generation? Children of the 1950s/60s?
Great point, younger voters trended to remain. What is De Botton's point here ?
Wtf. Leavers, take your blood pressure pills before reading this tweet:
Alain de BottonVerified account @alaindebotton Amazing the kind of politics you can engineer when you systematically underfund a nation's education system for a generation.
Fck, don't want to be a member of club that includes de Botton. I'll take Harris though.
The EEA Leavers were the Faragista's useful idiots. Rather than admit that to themselves, they've decided to go full-on nationalist themselves.
This is the interesting circle to square. They used the anti-immigration mood to get their precious sovereignty. Now they have it they don't mind that the collateral damage was both an unleashed anti-foreigner mood, and economic impairment for the country.
We are, at last, free to lower VAT on home energy supplies, and have escaped the oppressive yoke of droite de suite.
The alternative is to admit to themselves that they behaved appallingly. I suppose that they're not ready for that yet.
I don't know about you but I'm still waiting for the higher wages that Remain promised us if we vote Leave.
For me that's a promise that seems to be coming true
Is that directly related to Brexit though, I got a 6% increase after a year with no rise on my modest wages but the correlation to Brexit was nil so far as I can tell.
Wtf. Leavers, take your blood pressure pills before reading this tweet:
Alain de BottonVerified account @alaindebotton Amazing the kind of politics you can engineer when you systematically underfund a nation's education system for a generation.
Which generation? Children of the 1950s/60s?
Great point, younger voters trended to remain. What is De Botton's point here ?
But we Remainers will have to be a lot more imaginative than we have been. Remainerism has to be sold as a patriotic endeavour, not the "bankster's favourite".
Good luck with that.
Firstly almost all the arguments made when the voters were listening in the short campaign before the referendum were about money, and worse than that they were about large corporations and banks losing money, not a matter close to the hearts of most voters.
Secondly, you are going to have to persuade people that it is patriotic to give a large amount of control of their country to a supranational body. Its patriotic to push vast numbers of low paid men into part time jobs, and its patriotic for people to feel that their culture is being eroded day by day, and they dont recognise the place they grew up in.
Thirdly, and most problematic, the Leave campaign from the start sold itself as a patriotic endeavor, that is the subtext of the brilliantly effective "Vote Leave - Take Control" slogan. At the same time the Remain campaign banged on endlessly on themes which amounted to "too poor too wee too stupid", at the time when voters were paying the closest attention.
In the same way that Leavers used to blame every problem on the EU all Remainers will need to do in a couple of years is blame everything on Brexit. It will be an easy and successful strategy - after all we are only starting 3.8% behind. - there will be an anti-Brexit majority in the country by the next GE.
We had the amusing situation of the Democrats using the same sort of slogan "Better Together" as the Remain "Britain stronger in Europe" as the Republicans "Make America Great Again" was similar to the Leavers "Vote Leave, Take Control". Given that VLTC (an action) thrashed BSiE (a statement), you would have thought they would have chosen an action as their slogan.
The EEA Leavers were the Faragista's useful idiots. Rather than admit that to themselves, they've decided to go full-on nationalist themselves.
This is the interesting circle to square. They used the anti-immigration mood to get their precious sovereignty. Now they have it they don't mind that the collateral damage was both an unleashed anti-foreigner mood, and economic impairment for the country.
We are, at last, free to lower VAT on home energy supplies, and have escaped the oppressive yoke of droite de suite.
The alternative is to admit to themselves that they behaved appallingly. I suppose that they're not ready for that yet.
I don't know about you but I'm still waiting for the higher wages that Remain promised us if we vote Leave.
For me that's a promise that seems to be coming true
I've had two Brexit related pay rises and with the promise of tax cuts, I love Brexit.
Wtf. Leavers, take your blood pressure pills before reading this tweet:
Alain de BottonVerified account @alaindebotton Amazing the kind of politics you can engineer when you systematically underfund a nation's education system for a generation.
Fck, don't want to be a member of club that includes de Botton. I'll take Harris though.
What is patriotic about big public spending cuts that affect the poorest most, fewer rights for working people, lower wages growth and pared back environmental standards?
Rhetoric has yet to turn to reality. We will see what patriots do when it does.
Only yesterday May said workers rights would be fully protected and enshrined in UK law.
Yep, she makes a lot of promises. I am looking forward to seeing what her fairer country turns out to be in reality.
Wtf. Leavers, take your blood pressure pills before reading this tweet:
Alain de BottonVerified account @alaindebotton Amazing the kind of politics you can engineer when you systematically underfund a nation's education system for a generation.
Which generation? Children of the 1950s/60s?
Great point, younger voters trended to remain. What is De Botton's point here ?
The EEA Leavers were the Faragista's useful idiots. Rather than admit that to themselves, they've decided to go full-on nationalist themselves.
This is the interesting circle to square. They used the anti-immigration mood to get their precious sovereignty. Now they have it they don't mind that the collateral damage was both an unleashed anti-foreigner mood, and economic impairment for the country.
We are, at last, free to lower VAT on home energy supplies, and have escaped the oppressive yoke of droite de suite.
The alternative is to admit to themselves that they behaved appallingly. I suppose that they're not ready for that yet.
I don't know about you but I'm still waiting for the higher wages that Remain promised us if we vote Leave.
For me that's a promise that seems to be coming true
But we Remainers will have to be a lot more imaginative than we have been. Remainerism has to be sold as a patriotic endeavour, not the "bankster's favourite".
Good luck with that.
Firstly almost all the arguments made when the voters were listening in the short campaign before the referendum were about money, and worse than that they were about large corporations and banks losing money, not a matter close to the hearts of most voters.
Secondly, you are going to have to persuade people that it is patriotic to give a large amount of control of their country to a supranational body. Its patriotic to push vast numbers of low paid men into part time jobs, and its patriotic for people to feel that their culture is being eroded day by day, and they dont recognise the place they grew up in.
Thirdly, and most problematic, the Leave campaign from the start sold itself as a patriotic endeavor, that is the subtext of the brilliantly effective "Vote Leave - Take Control" slogan. At the same time the Remain campaign banged on endlessly on themes which amounted to "too poor too wee too stupid", at the time when voters were paying the closest attention.
What is patriotic about big public spending cuts that affect the poorest most, fewer rights for working people, lower wages growth and pared back environmental standards?
Rhetoric has yet to turn to reality. We will see what patriots do when it does.
Because all of that will be see as hang-wringing speculation until it actually happens. Lets face it, it is speculation at the moment, not a subject that Remain supporters have had a spectacular success rate with to date, to be fair.
But we Remainers will have to be a lot more imaginative than we have been. Remainerism has to be sold as a patriotic endeavour, not the "bankster's favourite".
Good luck with that.
Firstly almost all the arguments made when the voters were listening in the short campaign before the referendum were about money, and worse than that they were about large corporations and banks losing money, not a matter close to the hearts of most voters.
Secondly, you are going to have to persuade people that it is patriotic to give a large amount of control of their country to a supranational body. Its patriotic to push vast numbers of low paid men into part time jobs, and its patriotic for people to feel that their culture is being eroded day by day, and they dont recognise the place they grew up in.
Thirdly, and most problematic, the Leave campaign from the start sold itself as a patriotic endeavor, that is the subtext of the brilliantly effective "Vote Leave - Take Control" slogan. At the same time the Remain campaign banged on endlessly on themes which amounted to "too poor too wee too stupid", at the time when voters were paying the closest attention.
.. there will be an anti-Brexit majority in the country by the next GE.
Possible - although I very much doubt it. Unfortunately for them there will not be a box on the ballot paper to tick for this. There will be boxes that equate to PM May and to PM Corbyn.
Yep, she makes a lot of promises. I am looking forward to seeing what her fairer country turns out to be in reality.
Of course May has to deliver on her speech, but she did explicitly say we are keeping existing rights outside of the EU, so it seems a bit unreasonable to talk about us having fewer rights.
Wtf. Leavers, take your blood pressure pills before reading this tweet:
Alain de BottonVerified account @alaindebotton Amazing the kind of politics you can engineer when you systematically underfund a nation's education system for a generation.
Fck, don't want to be a member of club that includes de Botton. I'll take Harris though.
I'm intrigued by the new trend among Leavers. Having spent the last 25 years droning on about how the EU was the greatest evil known to mankind and how leaving it was the number one priority of world civilisation, they now are keen to suggest it's just a clerical matter and the details are jejune trifles that we shouldn't bore ourselves with.
No doubt psychiatrists the nation over are exploring this development.
My greatest worry over all this is that the EU has been set up as the source of so many of people's problems e.g. low wages, zero-hours, crap housing, rubbish schools, NHS not enough money, Syrians pouring into the country etc etc. So when none of these things gets remotely better when we leave - who they gonna blame next?
The government of course, only now the government won't be able to blame Brussels and will actually have to fix the damn problem, or risk the voters electing someone else they think might.
I'm intrigued by the new trend among Leavers. Having spent the last 25 years droning on about how the EU was the greatest evil known to mankind and how leaving it was the number one priority of world civilisation, they now are keen to suggest it's just a clerical matter and the details are jejune trifles that we shouldn't bore ourselves with.
No doubt psychiatrists the nation over are exploring this development.
The speech, the sterling bounce and now unemployment down have really pushed you back over the edge again. Very sad.
What is patriotic about big public spending cuts that affect the poorest most, fewer rights for working people, lower wages growth and pared back environmental standards?
Rhetoric has yet to turn to reality. We will see what patriots do when it does.
Only yesterday May said workers rights would be fully protected and enshrined in UK law.
Yep, she makes a lot of promises. I am looking forward to seeing what her fairer country turns out to be in reality.
Out of interest how do you see the issue of fairness to workers vs fairness to public working out in the current disaster that is Southern Trains?
Comments
the City has to restablish its credentials with the electorate not the other way around.
And no way would we be having the opposite arguments if Remain had won, there wouldn't be any "think of the Leavers as well" cries.
I can't believe that the Leavers on here (who are essentially the Rich Kids of PB) are in anyway representative of the electorate as a whole.
UK unemployment fell by 52,000 to 1.6 million in three months to November, official figures showed. - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38661443
Armageddon postponed…
If you're going to continue slinging a deefy, I'll just have to assume you're a fearty, little clucker.
https://twitter.com/dwppressoffice/status/821652947952168960
"She had dressed in Black Watch tartan"
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4130176/QUENTIN-LETTS-hears-PM-business-Brexit.html
But May intuited that collectively it was about immigration and hence made FoM her red line.
And she has been generally thought right to do so.
Some of them were saying membership of the EEA is our inalienable right. Nothing will change Syu there's nothing to discuss. Now they are saying deal or no deal, out is better than in. There's still nothing to discuss.
I guess none of us can claim to be totally consistent!
2020 too far out for a sensible bet .
Exporters are benefiting from the reduction in sterling; the same fall hasn't quite yet headed through to substantially higher inflation (~1.6% is nothing to write home about); we're still in the single market and people are seeing that the sun rises in morning post Brexit - interest rates being at 0.25% are also helping. The FTSE is benefiting from sterling's fall.
Following however:
The reduction in sterling will become 'baked in' so the benefit to exporters will lessen from the initial boost, the fall in sterling 'simply must' feed through to some real inflation (Signs of this are starting to creep in), we will be out of the single market so trading conditions will change, interest rates will surely rise in order to keep sterling tanking too far, the counterfactual will be worse than it otherwise would have been on a strictly economic basis to staying in the single market. The FTSE sugar rush will die down.
If I had to divine the general public's mood we want to get on and Brexit already and a thankful to May for setting a direction.
But we've already forgotten why we were so mardy, and as Brexit becomes *a* thing, rather than *some* thing, the opportunity to move public opinion against Brexit will grow.
But we Remainers will have to be a lot more imaginative than we have been. Remainerism has to be sold as a patriotic endeavour, not the "bankster's favourite".
I'm sure passions will moderate in time, but one of the many downsides to referendums is that they're so polarising. I doubt every Remain voter is a slavering quisling Europhile, humming 'Ode to Joy' while they brush their teeth, any more than Leave voters are all racists who hanker back to the days of Empire and wish all the Muslimics would bugger off.
To deny this is like saying you're unsure as to whether the sun's gravity is the main factor in the earth's orbit...
Dan Hannan's fantasy land was exposed as the emperor's new clothes yesterday.
the Leaver equivalent of Emily Thornberry must be Jabba the Hut
Firstly almost all the arguments made when the voters were listening in the short campaign before the referendum were about money, and worse than that they were about large corporations and banks losing money, not a matter close to the hearts of most voters.
Secondly, you are going to have to persuade people that it is patriotic to give a large amount of control of their country to a supranational body. Its patriotic to push vast numbers of low paid men into part time jobs, and its patriotic for people to feel that their culture is being eroded day by day, and they dont recognise the place they grew up in.
Thirdly, and most problematic, the Leave campaign from the start sold itself as a patriotic endeavor, that is the subtext of the brilliantly effective "Vote Leave - Take Control" slogan. At the same time the Remain campaign banged on endlessly on themes which amounted to "too poor too wee too stupid", at the time when voters were paying the closest attention.
@PickardJE: Boris says it's not in Europe's interests to administer punishment beatings to "anyone who wants to escape, like a character in a WW2 movie"
We are, at last, free to lower VAT on home energy supplies, and have escaped the oppressive yoke of droite de suite.
No doubt psychiatrists the nation over are exploring this development.
Rhetoric has yet to turn to reality. We will see what patriots do when it does.
Nicola giving up her FM stipend on by her own volition seems an unattractive bet on reflection.
Ok, £100 it is.
Alain de BottonVerified account
@alaindebotton
Amazing the kind of politics you can engineer when you systematically underfund a nation's education system for a generation.
edited extra bit - plus they wouldn't be able to hide behind - 'EU regulations forced us to do it'
"Trust me - I think a rich CEO and a Human Rights lawyer are the best people to sell our message to the general public"
Baffling.
High employment and rising wages does set the scence for inflation though, and one wonders how we manage to run such a massive budget deficit in such a benign economic environment.
https://twitter.com/Robert___Harris/status/821491977057431552
The cognitive dissonance was astounding.
"Rhetoric has yet to turn to reality."
Depends on turnout, I'd say it was odds against, mind.
Are you wealthier in US $ terms ?
I recant my opposition to Brexit.
Who knew learning French would come in so useful.
And anyone who doesn't is a moaning, traitorous, EU loving, liberal elite, snowflake c***, and can f*** off if they don't like it here.
https://twitter.com/oceanseyye/status/821092275912589313