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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why TMay must stay – for now

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  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 2,016
    Dadge said:

    A Lab/Con coalition would be the best thing for the country. Involving minority parties in govt is always to be avoided. But the Tories would insist on a change of Labour leader, so it's not remotely possible. The idea of a cross-party Brexit team is very good though.

    But how much damage could a deputy PM Corbyn actually do?

    It would give the electorate a couple of years to see him for what he really is, if PB Tories are to be believed the electorate would reject him after that.

    Put it this way - when this coalition of chaos (lol - the irony!) finally falls - Corbyn or his successor is nailed on for a win anyway.

    This is a zombie government and the longer the Tories try to govern with the DUP, the more toxic they become.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,663
    PB Tories, do you regard May as being much worse than IDS now?

    She appears to have no political antennae or self-awareness....
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    'So Mr Timpson what do you plan to do now that you are not an MP?'

    'I'm getting a part time job in a shop.'
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,950
    Heard a rumour in Labour circles that May was set up. That certain people werent working exclusively for her.

    Almost certainly bollocks and a bit house of cards. But without a doubt there are few within the Tory fold who's leadership aspirations would not have benefited from a May landslide.

    We should watch carefully how events unfold.

  • Clown_Car_HQClown_Car_HQ Posts: 169
    Charles said:


    Where was the attack on the economy?
    Where was the focus on Labour's policies?
    Where was the daily press conference pounding the opposition's key figures (Abbott etc)

    They bet the farm on Corbyn's past being a killer AND on his being useless on the campaign trail - there was a quite explicit decision to stay off the airwaves and "let him hang himself", even some gloating comments to journos that they were complaining to the BBC that he wasn't getting enough airtime. Quibbling about the manifesto was seen as a distraction from the main job of rubbishing him. The Tory strategists were cheerily cynical about it all and precisely deserve what they got.
    True. But it's also why Labour shouldn't be complacent about the next election. E.g. Kensington likely Tory gain & am sure there are others
    I don't agree. I think we will see a further swing away from the Conservatives and Labour will consolidate their vote in most of their new seats as will SCON, SLAB and SLD. If we end up with an Autumn election all three parties will add seats in Scotland, Labour will retain most of their gains in England and add some more and I think the LibDems will pick up some more seats as voters see a tired Tory party in decline.
  • murali_s said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:


    Where was the attack on the economy?
    Where was the focus on Labour's policies?
    Where was the daily press conference pounding the opposition's key figures (Abbott etc)

    They bet the farm on Corbyn's past being a killer AND on his being useless on the campaign trail - there was a quite explicit decision to stay off the airwaves and "let him hang himself", even some gloating comments to journos that they were complaining to the BBC that he wasn't getting enough airtime. Quibbling about the manifesto was seen as a distraction from the main job of rubbishing him. The Tory strategists were cheerily cynical about it all and precisely deserve what they got.
    True. But it's also why Labour shouldn't be complacent about the next election. E.g. Kensington likely Tory gain & am sure there are others
    Yes, with a better leader and no attack on property rights Kensington, Canterbury and a few others will swing back fairly easily.
    Canterbury maybe, but London is and will continue to swing for Labour. Tories will be left with a handful of seats around the periphery.
    I couldn't believe how close Chipping Barnet was. Even in 97 the majority was 1100. This time 350
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 18,067

    PB Tories, do you regard May as being much worse than IDS now?

    She appears to have no political antennae or self-awareness....

    Yes, she's worse than IDS.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 17,481
    edited June 2017

    in spite of Theresa May's catastrophic mistakes in this GE, I believe she is the right person to lead this country AT THIS PARTICULAR TIME. Yes, I expect she will have to go eventually but NOT NOW.

    How on earth is Theresa The House Stealer the right person to lead this country AT THIS TIME?

    She said "Each vote for me will strengthen my hand at Brexit negotiations" and then went on to blow her majority!

    She's not just a lame duck she's a dead duck! The EU will sit down on the other side of that table a laugh at her.

    Basically, at this point, absolutely anybody would be better than her, probably even Jezza!

    She gambled. She lost. She must go. Hiding in her bunker and trying to brazen it out is not an option.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    If its true that May and his team are all childless and thus saw nothing wrong with the 'dementia tax' then I wonder if things would have been different with Andrea Leadsom as PM.

    Perhaps those PBers who were so critical of Leadson's "being a mother" line might now like to view their criticism in a different light ?

    Bollocks.

    I believe Ruth Davidson is childless and she knows how to come up with successful policies.

    By your logic, the most qualified person to be Prime Minister is Mick Phillpot

    Being clueless is more definitive than being childless.
  • murali_s said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:


    Where was the attack on the economy?
    Where was the focus on Labour's policies?
    Where was the daily press conference pounding the opposition's key figures (Abbott etc)

    They bet the farm on Corbyn's past being a killer AND on his being useless on the campaign trail - there was a quite explicit decision to stay off the airwaves and "let him hang himself", even some gloating comments to journos that they were complaining to the BBC that he wasn't getting enough airtime. Quibbling about the manifesto was seen as a distraction from the main job of rubbishing him. The Tory strategists were cheerily cynical about it all and precisely deserve what they got.
    True. But it's also why Labour shouldn't be complacent about the next election. E.g. Kensington likely Tory gain & am sure there are others
    Yes, with a better leader and no attack on property rights Kensington, Canterbury and a few others will swing back fairly easily.
    Canterbury maybe, but London is and will continue to swing for Labour. Tories will be left with a handful of seats around the periphery.
    I couldn't believe how close Chipping Barnet was. Even in 97 the majority was 1100. This time 350
    Revenge of the Remainers against a prominent Leaver?
  • The Corbynistas who are learning that the Tories still get to be in power even though Corbyn 'won' the GE is also quite entertaining.

    Some Lab MPs are trying to educate them:





  • Clown_Car_HQClown_Car_HQ Posts: 169

    murali_s said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:


    Where was the attack on the economy?
    Where was the focus on Labour's policies?
    Where was the daily press conference pounding the opposition's key figures (Abbott etc)

    They bet the farm on Corbyn's past being a killer AND on his being useless on the campaign trail - there was a quite explicit decision to stay off the airwaves and "let him hang himself", even some gloating comments to journos that they were complaining to the BBC that he wasn't getting enough airtime. Quibbling about the manifesto was seen as a distraction from the main job of rubbishing him. The Tory strategists were cheerily cynical about it all and precisely deserve what they got.
    True. But it's also why Labour shouldn't be complacent about the next election. E.g. Kensington likely Tory gain & am sure there are others
    Yes, with a better leader and no attack on property rights Kensington, Canterbury and a few others will swing back fairly easily.
    Canterbury maybe, but London is and will continue to swing for Labour. Tories will be left with a handful of seats around the periphery.
    I couldn't believe how close Chipping Barnet was. Even in 97 the majority was 1100. This time 350
    I was wrong about Canterbury but having seen the figures for new electoral roll registrations in the constituency I now think it will remain Labour.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 33,383
    Charles said:


    Where was the attack on the economy?
    Where was the focus on Labour's policies?
    Where was the daily press conference pounding the opposition's key figures (Abbott etc)

    They bet the farm on Corbyn's past being a killer AND on his being useless on the campaign trail - there was a quite explicit decision to stay off the airwaves and "let him hang himself", even some gloating comments to journos that they were complaining to the BBC that he wasn't getting enough airtime. Quibbling about the manifesto was seen as a distraction from the main job of rubbishing him. The Tory strategists were cheerily cynical about it all and precisely deserve what they got.
    True. But it's also why Labour shouldn't be complacent about the next election. E.g. Kensington likely Tory gain & am sure there are others

    The Tories also won seats that you'd think would not naturally be theirs and which could swing back. Tactical voting may well return to a much greater extent as well. While Scotland could be in the process of opening up to Labour again. However, Labour has to get itself into a position where it is seen as an alternative government, not just a depository of protest votes. That will mean a lot of careful thinking on all sides. Whether the party as a whole is capable of that is not certain. But a golden opportunity is in the process of presenting itself.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 42,476

    alex. said:

    Mr. Abode, it's ridiculous. There's no need for the DUP to be involved. The deal should be cancelled.

    If they had a vote on abortion limits, the DUP wouldn't even be eligible for it under EVFEL.
    The optics are terrible. Years of de-toxification undone.

    My god, I'm turning into TSE
    My anger is growing not subsiding at Mrs May.

    Because of that moron good people like Edward Timpson have been screwed by that failed Turing Test that is Mrs May.
    I posted this yesterday. Friend was on the blower from that area spitting feathers about Timpson losing and they aren't even natural Tory supporter, but thought he was a decent person and good constituency MP.

    It is mighty impressive to piss people off so much that your candidate in a Brexit supporting area, who has had no scandal or said dinosaur-esque stuff, and family name has wide brand recognition as a good employer and lots of work for chairty manages to lose.
    I have friends in Crewe who I know voted Labour. I suggest you lost many seats because public sector workers who work hard day and night to provide education, health and services for the common good and who might otherwise be natural Tory supporters have had enough of the Tory Government treating them like pariahs.
    What do you mean "you" lost....I am not a Tory...As I stated on here, I voted Tory for the first time at this GE as an anti-corbyn vote. Still waiting on my chargrilled baby BTW.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,950
    Southern Tories look at Canterbury then remember Scotland and Labour.

    Tory safe seats in the south are as neglected and vulnerable as other so called safe seats.

    The Tories have a very soft underbelly that in a bad year could be vulnerable.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 17,481
    edited June 2017

    PB Tories, do you regard May as being much worse than IDS now?

    She appears to have no political antennae or self-awareness....

    I think she is. IDS wouldn't have delivered that speech she delivered outside Number Ten yesterday...

    Not only doesn't she have any self-awareness she appeared yesterday to be completely loopy.

    I actually can't believe Philip hasn't told her it's over - It can't be nice for him seeing his wife turned into a international laughing stock...
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    Dadge said:

    A Lab/Con coalition would be the best thing for the country. Involving minority parties in govt is always to be avoided. But the Tories would insist on a change of Labour leader, so it's not remotely possible. The idea of a cross-party Brexit team is very good though.

    We have a cross party team. Conservative and DUP. I assume you approve.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 18,067
    edited June 2017

    murali_s said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:


    Where was the attack on the economy?
    Where was the focus on Labour's policies?
    Where was the daily press conference pounding the opposition's key figures (Abbott etc)

    They bet the farm on Corbyn's past being a killer AND on his being useless on the campaign trail - there was a quite explicit decision to stay off the airwaves and "let him hang himself", even some gloating comments to journos that they were complaining to the BBC that he wasn't getting enough airtime. Quibbling about the manifesto was seen as a distraction from the main job of rubbishing him. The Tory strategists were cheerily cynical about it all and precisely deserve what they got.
    True. But it's also why Labour shouldn't be complacent about the next election. E.g. Kensington likely Tory gain & am sure there are others
    Yes, with a better leader and no attack on property rights Kensington, Canterbury and a few others will swing back fairly easily.
    Canterbury maybe, but London is and will continue to swing for Labour. Tories will be left with a handful of seats around the periphery.
    I couldn't believe how close Chipping Barnet was. Even in 97 the majority was 1100. This time 350
    Revenge of the Remainers against a prominent Leaver?
    High value property as well. Anywhere with high value property has seen a very large swing against us.

    The average price of a house on my parents road is £800-900k in Enfield Southgate, it is a just a 4 bed semi and fairly representative of the area. The dementia tax policy just killed us in these kinds of seats.

    People did the sums and thought, "hold on the house I've spent 30-40 years paying off is going to be confiscated and I can only leave a tiny portion of it to my kids". It wasn't just old voters staying home, but middle class 45-60 year olds with kids as well.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 69,562
    Davis staying leader for the negotiations and then Boris taking over before the next election is one possibility though if there is another election in the autumn one of them would need to be leader for that
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 13,542
    3500 votes either way and the SNP would have been on 41 seats or 24 seats.

    There are no safe SNP seats in Scotland now.
  • GIN1138 said:

    PB Tories, do you regard May as being much worse than IDS now?

    She appears to have no political antennae or self-awareness....

    I think she is. IDS wouldn't have delivered that speech she delivered outside Number Ten yesterday...

    Not only doesn't she have any self-awareness she appeared yesterday to be completely loopy.

    I actually can't believe Philip hasn't told her it's over - It can't be nice for him seeing his wife turned into a international laughing stock...
    Philip May is no Denis Thatcher.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 16,271

    If its true that May and his team are all childless and thus saw nothing wrong with the 'dementia tax' then I wonder if things would have been different with Andrea Leadsom as PM.

    Perhaps those PBers who were so critical of Leadson's "being a mother" line might now like to view their criticism in a different light ?

    Bollocks.

    I believe Ruth Davidson is childless and she knows how to come up with successful policies.

    By your logic, the most qualified person to be Prime Minister is Mick Phillpot
    I rather doubt Mick Phillpot will be leaving much in the way of inheritance whereas many middle class grannies will.

    My more general point is that May and her team seem to have been drawn from a very similar demographic on the dementia tax issue. A more varied input might have picked up on problems which May and her team didn't.

    As to Davidson, she is a formidable campaigner and a great opposition leader but I don't think she's ever been in government yet.

    And what are Davidson's successful policies:

    1) No second IndyRef
    2) Keep WFA in Scotland

    and anything else ?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 20,889
    MaxPB said:

    PB Tories, do you regard May as being much worse than IDS now?

    She appears to have no political antennae or self-awareness....

    Yes, she's worse than IDS.
    so it looks after all that the Tories needed Ukip in order to split Labour's vote
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 25,352
    edited June 2017
    Morning all.

    As it happens, this morning, purely by chance, I bumped into a Conservative MP whom I know. His view was that Theresa May should stay and take responsibility for the mess, and also that there's no obvious alternative candidate.

    But what a horrendous mess it is.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Ruth Ruth Ruth! WE WANT RUTH!
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Good idea but who?

    Heseltine ?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,698
    edited June 2017

    Scott_P said:

    Mr. Meeks/Mr. P, are you really pleased that the far left has been emboldened and tightened its grip on Labour?

    I said at the time that the Brexit campaign of sweeties for all was a bad idea

    That the campaign worked is a tragedy. That the proponents are outraged by other political movements aping the success, is a farce

    Laughter is the appropriate response
    so youre 21 and a bloke walks up to you and says put a cross in this box and you can have £27k

    what would you do ?
    You'd say you'll have to do better than that. There's a blond bloke who's offering £350,000,000!

    Incidentally I hear Ludlow at least can keep its head up. The blue flags above the Conservative Clubs are flying just that little bit higher this morning.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    Alistair said:

    3500 votes either way and the SNP would have been on 41 seats or 24 seats.

    There are no safe SNP seats in Scotland now.

    Just rejoice at that news.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 16,271

    PB Tories, do you regard May as being much worse than IDS now?

    She appears to have no political antennae or self-awareness....

    Doubtless provoking TSE into another 'bollocks' I wonder if the background of IDS and May might now be showing:

    IDS - military background, service and sacrifice
    May - religious background, mission from God
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 10,714
    I'd like to share some thoughts on Labour.

    Firstly, Jezza needs to stay for the next 2 or 3 years. We need Strength and Stability during this time of uncertainty with the government, and it would not be right to change leader with the chance of another election in the autumn or next spring.

    Secondly, the PLP and wider party needs to come together. This works both ways, with those on the right of the party giving Corbyn credit for what he has achieved and the Corbynites acknowledging that others are not 'Red Tories'.

    Thirdly, it is clear that we are now unashamedly a Socialist Party, not Social Democrats, and that is where we should stay in order to keep our 40% and build on it.

    Fourthly, we need a shadow cabinet that includes three strands:

    * Current members who had a good campaign, such as Thornberry and Gardner
    * Big beasts currently on the back benches, such as Cooper and Benn
    * Potential future leaders, who can prove themselves over the next couple of years then be ready to take over from Jezza. Clive Lewis plus ??? from the soft - left. They need to have the popularity and personality of Corbyn without the baggage that lost us some voters.

    Anyway, that's my two-peneth.
  • isamisam Posts: 30,713
    Post Thanet by Election... Super Nigel!
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,950
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 69,562

    The Corbynistas who are learning that the Tories still get to be in power even though Corbyn 'won' the GE is also quite entertaining.

    Some Lab MPs are trying to educate them:





    My fear is that we are Greece 2012 when the conservatives won 2 elections in 2012 but without a majority but Tsipras won in 2015, so the Tories could cling on for a few more years until Corbyn gets in. Indeed given 2016 US polls showed Sanders beating Trump by more than Hillary did it is not impossible that by the end of 2020 we could have elected PM Corbyn and the US could have elected President Sanders
  • ab195ab195 Posts: 477
    edited June 2017

    alex. said:

    Mr. Abode, it's ridiculous. There's no need for the DUP to be involved. The deal should be cancelled.

    If they had a vote on abortion limits, the DUP wouldn't even be eligible for it under EVFEL.
    The optics are terrible. Years of de-toxification undone.

    My god, I'm turning into TSE
    My anger is growing not subsiding at Mrs May.

    Because of that moron good people like Edward Timpson have been screwed by that failed Turing Test that is Mrs May.
    I posted this yesterday. Friend was on the blower from that area spitting feathers about Timpson losing and they aren't even natural Tory supporter, but thought he was a decent person and good constituency MP.

    It is mighty impressive to piss people off so much that your candidate in a Brexit supporting area, who has had no scandal or said dinosaur-esque stuff, and family name has wide brand recognition as a good employer and lots of work for chairty manages to lose.
    I have friends in Crewe who I know voted Labour. I suggest you lost many seats because public sector workers who work hard day and night to provide education, health and services for the common good and who might otherwise be natural Tory supporters have had enough of the Tory Government treating them like pariahs.
    Yup, conservatives have been attacking public sector workers for years, despite many of them voting Tory in 2010 and starting out accepting the need for some cuts. They are now at the stage where wanting a pay rise, government that doesn't think they should all aspire to working in the private sector instead, and possibly some of their lost terms and conditions back, far outweighs any interest in geopolitical questions like the future of Trident. "Sod it", they may start to think, "there are enough moderates in the PLP to keep Jezza in check, I want my payrise". And they still have enough votes that the Tories could do with a few of them.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited June 2017

    PB Tories, do you regard May as being much worse than IDS now?

    She appears to have no political antennae or self-awareness....

    IDS would have changed tack when it was clear the campaigm was going badly wrong.
  • Another observation from elsewhere, a party led by a man who believes that immigration is not too high nearly won the popular vote on Thursday.

    Less than a year after the referendum.

    Ponder on that.
  • murali_s said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:


    Where was the attack on the economy?
    Where was the focus on Labour's policies?
    Where was the daily press conference pounding the opposition's key figures (Abbott etc)

    They bet the farm on Corbyn's past being a killer AND on his being useless on the campaign trail - there was a quite explicit decision to stay off the airwaves and "let him hang himself", even some gloating comments to journos that they were complaining to the BBC that he wasn't getting enough airtime. Quibbling about the manifesto was seen as a distraction from the main job of rubbishing him. The Tory strategists were cheerily cynical about it all and precisely deserve what they got.
    True. But it's also why Labour shouldn't be complacent about the next election. E.g. Kensington likely Tory gain & am sure there are others
    Yes, with a better leader and no attack on property rights Kensington, Canterbury and a few others will swing back fairly easily.
    Canterbury maybe, but London is and will continue to swing for Labour. Tories will be left with a handful of seats around the periphery.
    I couldn't believe how close Chipping Barnet was. Even in 97 the majority was 1100. This time 350
    Revenge of the Remainers against a prominent Leaver?
    Quite possibly.
    I have 5 constituency boundaries within one mile of where I'm sitting. 2 are now red. The red tide creeping closer.
  • isamisam Posts: 30,713
    edited June 2017

    Another observation from elsewhere, a party led by a man who believes that immigration is not too high nearly won the popular vote on Thursday.

    Less than a year after the referendum.

    Ponder on that.

    That belief nearly won (ie lost) the referendum last year too
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 17,481
    edited June 2017

    Morning all.

    As it happens, this morning, purely by chance, I bumped into a Conservative MP whom I know. His view was that Theresa May should stay and take responsibility for the mess, and also that there's no obvious alternative candidate.

    Tip from a non-Tory member to "pass back" to whoever... Theresa's done. She has to go. That's the number one priority right now.

    Who takes over and when + What happens next are questions for another day but you've got to get Theresa May out of Downing St. ASAP.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 42,476
    edited June 2017

    Another observation from elsewhere, a party led by a man who believes that immigration is not too high nearly won the popular vote on Thursday.

    Less than a year after the referendum.

    Ponder on that.

    Immigration policy never played are real part in the election though. I doubt many people know what Jezza's take on immigration is, I seemed to remember he once mumbled something vague about it that was disingenuous of his real position.

    And of course the Tories made their usual pledge, without any plans and that was it.

    Where as the EU referendum it is was one of the major issues.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,939

    The Corbynistas who are learning that the Tories still get to be in power even though Corbyn 'won' the GE is also quite entertaining.

    Some Lab MPs are trying to educate them:





    Well, quite, but Corbyn has every right to claim that he won seats despite the likes of Gapes and Leslie, not because of them. And I suggest these idiots would do well to go away and reflect on that for a while.
  • Fat_SteveFat_Steve Posts: 358
    William Hague ?
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    MaxPB said:

    Scott_P said:

    May should never have sacked Osborne

    He torpedoed Gordo's snap election with the Death Tax.

    If May had included him, he would have torpedoed the Dementia Tax before it made it into the manifesto

    Would he have known about it? Wasn't the manifesto all a bit secret squirrel during writing?
    Yes, no one knew about it except Hunt. Ridiculous.
    Is Hunt still at Health do we know?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,698

    I'd like to share some thoughts on Labour.

    Firstly, Jezza needs to stay for the next 2 or 3 years. We need Strength and Stability during this time of uncertainty with the government, and it would not be right to change leader with the chance of another election in the autumn or next spring.

    Secondly, the PLP and wider party needs to come together. This works both ways, with those on the right of the party giving Corbyn credit for what he has achieved and the Corbynites acknowledging that others are not 'Red Tories'.

    Thirdly, it is clear that we are now unashamedly a Socialist Party, not Social Democrats, and that is where we should stay in order to keep our 40% and build on it.

    Fourthly, we need a shadow cabinet that includes three strands:

    * Current members who had a good campaign, such as Thornberry and Gardner
    * Big beasts currently on the back benches, such as Cooper and Benn
    * Potential future leaders, who can prove themselves over the next couple of years then be ready to take over from Jezza. Clive Lewis plus ??? from the soft - left. They need to have the popularity and personality of Corbyn without the baggage that lost us some voters.

    Anyway, that's my two-peneth.

    Yes. Sage advice.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Another observation from elsewhere, a party led by a man who believes that immigration is not too high nearly won the popular vote on Thursday.

    Less than a year after the referendum.

    Ponder on that.

    Yes because the public no longer believe anyone will do a thing about it. He also used the words "managed migration" even though we all know saying those words were like pulling teeth for him.
  • PB Tories, do you regard May as being much worse than IDS now?

    She appears to have no political antennae or self-awareness....

    Doubtless provoking TSE into another 'bollocks' I wonder if the background of IDS and May might now be showing:

    IDS - military background, service and sacrifice
    May - religious background, mission from God
    Bollocks :lol:

    I believe IDS has several children.

    So having kids or not, there's no correlation to being a crap leader.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 7,655
    nunu said:

    Ruth Ruth Ruth! WE WANT RUTH!
    Nick and Fiona don't deserve countering, they need dismissing in disgrace.
  • isamisam Posts: 30,713

    Another observation from elsewhere, a party led by a man who believes that immigration is not too high nearly won the popular vote on Thursday.

    Less than a year after the referendum.

    Ponder on that.

    Immigration policy never played are real part in the election though. I doubt many people know what Jezza's take on immigration is, I seemed to remember he once mumbled something vague about it that was disingenuous of his real position.

    And of course the Tories made their usual pledge, without any plans and that was it.

    Where as the EU referendum it is was one of the major issues.
    Even if it did play a big part, which it didn't, he lost!!

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 10,714
    Dadge said:

    malcolmg said:

    jonny83 said:

    Says that Ruth has been given assurances over gay rights (that's the power she has these days after that result!) in regards to the deal with the DUP.

    I expect we won't see any formal deal, just an agreement, supply and confidence sort of deal. We will have to give them probably some commitment to spending in NI on things like infrastructure.

    I think it can work for a while.

    Yes that will be like the assurances there would be no election , and the various other u turns. You numpties are easily pleased.
    How is May going to solve the crisis in NI?
    Hard Brexit
    Hard Border
    Referendum
    United Ireland
  • LucyJonesLucyJones Posts: 643

    PB Tories, do you regard May as being much worse than IDS now?

    She appears to have no political antennae or self-awareness....

    At the moment, quite possibly. But she could possibly redeem herself to a certain extent, depending on how she handles the time between now and the time of her resignation.

    First of all, though, if her advisors won't fall on their swords voluntarily, she needs to sack them, ASAP. The handling of the election campaign tells us that they were useless at their jobs. The Times article tells us that they were also divisive, dismissive characters.

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 16,271
    Scott_P said:

    Mr. Meeks/Mr. P, are you really pleased that the far left has been emboldened and tightened its grip on Labour?

    I said at the time that the Brexit campaign of sweeties for all was a bad idea

    That the campaign worked is a tragedy. That the proponents are outraged by other political movements aping the success, is a farce

    Laughter is the appropriate response
    Yet you led the cheer of the Conservatives 2015 campaign of sweeties for all (except the young).

    Perhaps Boris promising more money for the NHS in 2015 was different to Boris promising more money for the NHS in 2016.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    MaxPB said:

    MaxPB said:

    Was chatting to someone last night who is utterly opposed to our new pact with the DUP. He described it using "The Snake" and he thinks the DUP will absolutely​fuck us over in the long term and possibly even poison the well for unionism in NI.

    And having unionism in Scotland so clearly associated with the whole thing would poison the well there too.
    Yes he brought that up too. The resurgence of unionism in Scotland has been built in socially liberal foundations laid by a gay Tory leader. Getting in bed with the DUP takes that party backwards, this won't go unnoticed by our new supporters in Scotland.

    Are there no protestants in Scotland?

  • murali_s said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:


    Where was the attack on the economy?
    Where was the focus on Labour's policies?
    Where was the daily press conference pounding the opposition's key figures (Abbott etc)

    They bet the farm on Corbyn's past being a killer AND on his being useless on the campaign trail - there was a quite explicit decision to stay off the airwaves and "let him hang himself", even some gloating comments to journos that they were complaining to the BBC that he wasn't getting enough airtime. Quibbling about the manifesto was seen as a distraction from the main job of rubbishing him. The Tory strategists were cheerily cynical about it all and precisely deserve what they got.
    True. But it's also why Labour shouldn't be complacent about the next election. E.g. Kensington likely Tory gain & am sure there are others
    Yes, with a better leader and no attack on property rights Kensington, Canterbury and a few others will swing back fairly easily.
    Canterbury maybe, but London is and will continue to swing for Labour. Tories will be left with a handful of seats around the periphery.
    I couldn't believe how close Chipping Barnet was. Even in 97 the majority was 1100. This time 350
    Revenge of the Remainers against a prominent Leaver?
    Quite possibly.
    I have 5 constituency boundaries within one mile of where I'm sitting. 2 are now red. The red tide creeping closer.
    I feel your pain. Hallam turned Red for the first time ever.

    Even Blair never managed that.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 12,698
    Fat_Steve said:

    William Hague ?
    Is that the best Willie on offer?
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,939

    alex. said:

    Mr. Abode, it's ridiculous. There's no need for the DUP to be involved. The deal should be cancelled.

    If they had a vote on abortion limits, the DUP wouldn't even be eligible for it under EVFEL.
    The optics are terrible. Years of de-toxification undone.

    My god, I'm turning into TSE
    My anger is growing not subsiding at Mrs May.

    Because of that moron good people like Edward Timpson have been screwed by that failed Turing Test that is Mrs May.
    I posted this yesterday. Friend was on the blower from that area spitting feathers about Timpson losing and they aren't even natural Tory supporter, but thought he was a decent person and good constituency MP.

    It is mighty impressive to piss people off so much that your candidate in a Brexit supporting area, who has had no scandal or said dinosaur-esque stuff, and family name has wide brand recognition as a good employer and lots of work for chairty manages to lose.
    I have friends in Crewe who I know voted Labour. I suggest you lost many seats because public sector workers who work hard day and night to provide education, health and services for the common good and who might otherwise be natural Tory supporters have had enough of the Tory Government treating them like pariahs.
    What do you mean "you" lost....I am not a Tory...As I stated on here, I voted Tory for the first time at this GE as an anti-corbyn vote. Still waiting on my chargrilled baby BTW.
    It was a general you aimed at TSE as much as you. And it doesn't detract from my point.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 14,174
    Roger said:

    I'd like to share some thoughts on Labour.

    Firstly, Jezza needs to stay for the next 2 or 3 years. We need Strength and Stability during this time of uncertainty with the government, and it would not be right to change leader with the chance of another election in the autumn or next spring.

    Secondly, the PLP and wider party needs to come together. This works both ways, with those on the right of the party giving Corbyn credit for what he has achieved and the Corbynites acknowledging that others are not 'Red Tories'.

    Thirdly, it is clear that we are now unashamedly a Socialist Party, not Social Democrats, and that is where we should stay in order to keep our 40% and build on it.

    Fourthly, we need a shadow cabinet that includes three strands:

    * Current members who had a good campaign, such as Thornberry and Gardner
    * Big beasts currently on the back benches, such as Cooper and Benn
    * Potential future leaders, who can prove themselves over the next couple of years then be ready to take over from Jezza. Clive Lewis plus ??? from the soft - left. They need to have the popularity and personality of Corbyn without the baggage that lost us some voters.

    Anyway, that's my two-peneth.

    Yes. Sage advice.
    Makes sense.
  • Clown_Car_HQClown_Car_HQ Posts: 169
    Alistair said:

    3500 votes either way and the SNP would have been on 41 seats or 24 seats.

    There are no safe SNP seats in Scotland now.

    Any complacent SLAB time servers were kicked out in 2015. I think the party will return in even greater strength next time with a new generation of MPs. SCON will pick up a handful more as wil SLD.

    Conservatives in decline in England and Wales and SNP in Scotland.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 10,714
    #Priti4DeputyLeader
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 69,562
    edited June 2017

    Another observation from elsewhere, a party led by a man who believes that immigration is not too high nearly won the popular vote on Thursday.

    Less than a year after the referendum.

    Ponder on that.

    Immigration policy never played are real part in the election though. I doubt many people know what Jezza's take on immigration is, I seemed to remember he once mumbled something vague about it that was disingenuous of his real position.

    And of course the Tories made their usual pledge, without any plans and that was it.

    Where as the EU referendum it is was one of the major issues.
    Corbyn actually said in the campaign he would control free movement thus neutralising the issue even if there was no specific target for reducing immigration unlike the Tories, he could then focus on his anti austerity anti 'dementia tax' message while still winning Remainers in seats where Labour was in a straight fight with the Tories
  • erm I think we can discount Ken (sadly), Hezza and Farage!

    RUTH is sadly not likely but I like Hague as an idea.... can't be someone who would be seen as PM in waiting in my opinion as whoever leads Tories in to the next election will need to be a 'fresh face' I think.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 17,481

    MaxPB said:

    PB Tories, do you regard May as being much worse than IDS now?

    She appears to have no political antennae or self-awareness....

    Yes, she's worse than IDS.
    so it looks after all that the Tories needed Ukip in order to split Labour's vote
    Not necessarily. I think a lot of those Ex UKIP > Labour voters are "anti-politics" and "anti-establishment" more than anything.

    I suspect Boris would have a good chance of reaching those voters but the risk with Boris is that he might put off even more southern remainer Tories at the same time.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,939


    murali_s said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:


    Where was the attack on the economy?
    Where was the focus on Labour's policies?
    Where was the daily press conference pounding the opposition's key figures (Abbott etc)

    They bet the farm on Corbyn's past being a killer AND on his being useless on the campaign trail - there was a quite explicit decision to stay off the airwaves and "let him hang himself", even some gloating comments to journos that they were complaining to the BBC that he wasn't getting enough airtime. Quibbling about the manifesto was seen as a distraction from the main job of rubbishing him. The Tory strategists were cheerily cynical about it all and precisely deserve what they got.
    True. But it's also why Labour shouldn't be complacent about the next election. E.g. Kensington likely Tory gain & am sure there are others
    Yes, with a better leader and no attack on property rights Kensington, Canterbury and a few others will swing back fairly easily.
    Canterbury maybe, but London is and will continue to swing for Labour. Tories will be left with a handful of seats around the periphery.
    I couldn't believe how close Chipping Barnet was. Even in 97 the majority was 1100. This time 350
    Revenge of the Remainers against a prominent Leaver?
    Quite possibly.
    I have 5 constituency boundaries within one mile of where I'm sitting. 2 are now red. The red tide creeping closer.
    I feel your pain. Hallam turned Red for the first time ever.

    Even Blair never managed that.
    Canterbury, Portsmouth South, Kensington, Sheffield Hallam....

    All won by Corbyn but not Blair - is that the lot?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 10,714

    Roger said:

    I'd like to share some thoughts on Labour.

    Firstly, Jezza needs to stay for the next 2 or 3 years. We need Strength and Stability during this time of uncertainty with the government, and it would not be right to change leader with the chance of another election in the autumn or next spring.

    Secondly, the PLP and wider party needs to come together. This works both ways, with those on the right of the party giving Corbyn credit for what he has achieved and the Corbynites acknowledging that others are not 'Red Tories'.

    Thirdly, it is clear that we are now unashamedly a Socialist Party, not Social Democrats, and that is where we should stay in order to keep our 40% and build on it.

    Fourthly, we need a shadow cabinet that includes three strands:

    * Current members who had a good campaign, such as Thornberry and Gardner
    * Big beasts currently on the back benches, such as Cooper and Benn
    * Potential future leaders, who can prove themselves over the next couple of years then be ready to take over from Jezza. Clive Lewis plus ??? from the soft - left. They need to have the popularity and personality of Corbyn without the baggage that lost us some voters.

    Anyway, that's my two-peneth.

    Yes. Sage advice.
    Makes sense.
    Thank you Nick and Roger.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 5,061
    nunu said:

    Another observation from elsewhere, a party led by a man who believes that immigration is not too high nearly won the popular vote on Thursday.

    Less than a year after the referendum.

    Ponder on that.

    Yes because the public no longer believe anyone will do a thing about it. He also used the words "managed migration" even though we all know saying those words were like pulling teeth for him.
    Surely the answer to meet 60% of the population is EEA EFTA keep freedom of movement and crack down dramatically on non eu migration by limiting family to existing spouse only ano only parents of single child families. Should keep most people reasonably happy
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,939

    Roger said:

    I'd like to share some thoughts on Labour.

    Firstly, Jezza needs to stay for the next 2 or 3 years. We need Strength and Stability during this time of uncertainty with the government, and it would not be right to change leader with the chance of another election in the autumn or next spring.

    Secondly, the PLP and wider party needs to come together. This works both ways, with those on the right of the party giving Corbyn credit for what he has achieved and the Corbynites acknowledging that others are not 'Red Tories'.

    Thirdly, it is clear that we are now unashamedly a Socialist Party, not Social Democrats, and that is where we should stay in order to keep our 40% and build on it.

    Fourthly, we need a shadow cabinet that includes three strands:

    * Current members who had a good campaign, such as Thornberry and Gardner
    * Big beasts currently on the back benches, such as Cooper and Benn
    * Potential future leaders, who can prove themselves over the next couple of years then be ready to take over from Jezza. Clive Lewis plus ??? from the soft - left. They need to have the popularity and personality of Corbyn without the baggage that lost us some voters.

    Anyway, that's my two-peneth.

    Yes. Sage advice.
    Makes sense.
    Agree with all that @SandyRentool . Hopefuly all sides will be big enough to come together.

    Problem is, I suspect next election will be 2019.
  • Fat_SteveFat_Steve Posts: 358
    Roger said:

    Fat_Steve said:

    William Hague ?
    Is that the best Willie on offer?
    I was half-joking, but he might be the best Willie.
    He's a Lord, so AFAIK can be in the cabinet, and address the Commons (have I got that right?)
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 20,889


    murali_s said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:


    Where was the attack on the economy?
    Where was the focus on Labour's policies?
    Where was the daily press conference pounding the opposition's key figures (Abbott etc)

    They bet the farm on Corbyn's past being a killer AND on his being useless on the campaign trail - there was a quite explicit decision to stay off the airwaves and "let him hang himself", even some gloating comments to journos that they were complaining to the BBC that he wasn't getting enough airtime. Quibbling about the manifesto was seen as a distraction from the main job of rubbishing him. The Tory strategists were cheerily cynical about it all and precisely deserve what they got.
    True. But it's also why Labour shouldn't be complacent about the next election. E.g. Kensington likely Tory gain & am sure there are others
    Yes, with a better leader and no attack on property rights Kensington, Canterbury and a few others will swing back fairly easily.
    Canterbury maybe, but London is and will continue to swing for Labour. Tories will be left with a handful of seats around the periphery.
    I couldn't believe how close Chipping Barnet was. Even in 97 the majority was 1100. This time 350
    Revenge of the Remainers against a prominent Leaver?
    Quite possibly.
    I have 5 constituency boundaries within one mile of where I'm sitting. 2 are now red. The red tide creeping closer.
    I feel your pain. Hallam turned Red for the first time ever.

    Even Blair never managed that.
    Uni fees

    my son - whos still at Uni - said it was the high point of the election
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 16,271


    murali_s said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:


    Where was the attack on the economy?
    Where was the focus on Labour's policies?
    Where was the daily press conference pounding the opposition's key figures (Abbott etc)

    They bet the farm on Corbyn's past being a killer AND on his being useless on the campaign trail - there was a quite explicit decision to stay off the airwaves and "let him hang himself", even some gloating comments to journos that they were complaining to the BBC that he wasn't getting enough airtime. Quibbling about the manifesto was seen as a distraction from the main job of rubbishing him. The Tory strategists were cheerily cynical about it all and precisely deserve what they got.
    True. But it's also why Labour shouldn't be complacent about the next election. E.g. Kensington likely Tory gain & am sure there are others
    Yes, with a better leader and no attack on property rights Kensington, Canterbury and a few others will swing back fairly easily.
    Canterbury maybe, but London is and will continue to swing for Labour. Tories will be left with a handful of seats around the periphery.
    I couldn't believe how close Chipping Barnet was. Even in 97 the majority was 1100. This time 350
    Revenge of the Remainers against a prominent Leaver?
    Quite possibly.
    I have 5 constituency boundaries within one mile of where I'm sitting. 2 are now red. The red tide creeping closer.
    I feel your pain. Hallam turned Red for the first time ever.

    Even Blair never managed that.
    Osborne and Clegg - the tuition fees increasers.

    You were warned.
  • erm I think we can discount Ken (sadly), Hezza and Farage!

    RUTH is sadly not likely but I like Hague as an idea.... can't be someone who would be seen as PM in waiting in my opinion as whoever leads Tories in to the next election will need to be a 'fresh face' I think.
    David Herdson for Downing Street Chief of Staff.

    If not, I'll do it.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 2,690
    IanB2 said:



    This from a guy in touch with voters for Labour every day is interesting, as anecdotal evidence that the swing came very late -

    http://labour-uncut.co.uk/2017/06/09/i-phone-banked-for-four-weeks-but-picked-up-no-labour-surge-and-then-on-polling-day-there-it-was/

    I don't think it was late swing. You did get the impression that previously dire canvassing returns were changing a bit in the last couple of weeks, but I certainly did not feel that we were neck and neck. It was only on polling day on knocking up, when clearly our Labour voters were coming out, that it was possible to become a bit more optimistic.

    So why didn't canvassing pick up the youth surge? Having done phone banking and doorknocking for Labour myself in the election, I think the answer is that the surge in the youth vote and turnout was very difficult to pick up by these methods and disguised by bias in the ability to make comparisons.

    On phone banking, we had phone numbers for less than 1 in 5 households, increasingly historic ones because the TPS has filtered out so many nowadays, so you were very rarely talking to young people when you phoned. You found yourself talking to Doris, not Sophie. Also, on the doorstep and phone, we were aware of historic voting intention of people, so you could make comparisons. However, they may last have been contacted perhaps 5,10 or 15 years ago - certainly only a minority in the last 2 or 3 years. So that ruled out comparisons with many younger people. A typical pattern would be to contact a family for which we had a previous VI record for the parents but not the younger adults, so you could not compare the younger voter with previous records. Or we were canvassing a private rented household with younger adults where typically there would be no previous VI record because they had moved there in the last year or two - older voters tend to be more settled.

    So I think from a Labour perspective, we were able to compare with VI disproportionately for the older part of the electorate, with whom Corbyn was unpopular and opinion had certainly not moved towards us, and it was easy to overlook movement towards us in the younger part of the electorate from such a biased sample of VI records.

    The other issue is that of turnout. Canvassing records are of little use there. Labour does not ask any questions along the lines of "how likely are you to vote" (maybe we should). Evidence that the young would turn out to vote had to come from anecdotal sources. Burnt by the evidence in 2015 and the 2016 EU referendum, this seemed too good to be true and I was inclined until the end to believe the pollsters that constructed turnout models based on historic patterns rather than self reporting.
  • LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    Theresa May was absolutely right to sack Osborne but perhaps not in the way she did, as she created a very bitter enemy. Both, he and Cameron, totally undermined her for years and she has taken the flak for their failure to control immigration, knowing all along that it was impossible whilst in the EU.

    Unfortunately, for Theresay May, they left many of their assassins behind.

    What brutal business politics is.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    In 2010 Lib Dems offered free tuition fees and got student vote

    In 2017 Labour offered free tuition fees and got student vote

    Offering free stuff wins voter approval - who knew?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    How toxic are Tezza's aides?

    Damian is throwing shade...

    @DPMcBride: You know things are bad when even ex-Gordon Brown staffers are texting each other saying: ‘Wow, that’s bad’. #KatiePerrior
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 2,690

    I'd like to share some thoughts on Labour.

    Firstly, Jezza needs to stay for the next 2 or 3 years. We need Strength and Stability during this time of uncertainty with the government, and it would not be right to change leader with the chance of another election in the autumn or next spring.

    Secondly, the PLP and wider party needs to come together. This works both ways, with those on the right of the party giving Corbyn credit for what he has achieved and the Corbynites acknowledging that others are not 'Red Tories'.

    Thirdly, it is clear that we are now unashamedly a Socialist Party, not Social Democrats, and that is where we should stay in order to keep our 40% and build on it.

    Fourthly, we need a shadow cabinet that includes three strands:

    * Current members who had a good campaign, such as Thornberry and Gardner
    * Big beasts currently on the back benches, such as Cooper and Benn
    * Potential future leaders, who can prove themselves over the next couple of years then be ready to take over from Jezza. Clive Lewis plus ??? from the soft - left. They need to have the popularity and personality of Corbyn without the baggage that lost us some voters.

    Anyway, that's my two-peneth.

    I fully agree.

  • LucyJonesLucyJones Posts: 643
    ab195 said:

    alex. said:

    Mr. Abode, it's ridiculous. There's no need for the DUP to be involved. The deal should be cancelled.

    If they had a vote on abortion limits, the DUP wouldn't even be eligible for it under EVFEL.
    The optics are terrible. Years of de-toxification undone.

    My god, I'm turning into TSE
    My anger is growing not subsiding at Mrs May.

    Because of that moron good people like Edward Timpson have been screwed by that failed Turing Test that is Mrs May.
    I posted this yesterday. Friend was on the blower from that area spitting feathers about Timpson losing and they aren't even natural Tory supporter, but thought he was a decent person and good constituency MP.

    It is mighty impressive to piss people off so much that your candidate in a Brexit supporting area, who has had no scandal or said dinosaur-esque stuff, and family name has wide brand recognition as a good employer and lots of work for chairty manages to lose.
    I have friends in Crewe who I know voted Labour. I suggest you lost many seats because public sector workers who work hard day and night to provide education, health and services for the common good and who might otherwise be natural Tory supporters have had enough of the Tory Government treating them like pariahs.
    Yup, conservatives have been attacking public sector workers for years, despite many of them voting Tory in 2010 and starting out accepting the need for some cuts. They are now at the stage where wanting a pay rise, government that doesn't think they should all aspire to working in the private sector instead, and possibly some of their lost terms and conditions back, far outweighs any interest in geopolitical questions like the future of Trident. "Sod it", they may start to think, "there are enough moderates in the PLP to keep Jezza in check, I want my payrise". And they still have enough votes that the Tories could do with a few of them.
    My husband (working in the private sector) took a 20% pay cut in about 2008, just to keep his job (as did everyone else at his firm). I think he has just about got back to where he was, salary wise. His is not a uncommon story. Public sector workers haven't suffered more than the rest of us, they just shout louder about it.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    My first thought was Ken Clarke, but I think Hague would be a better choice.

    Either would send the headbangers over the top.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 20,889

    In 2010 Lib Dems offered free tuition fees and got student vote

    In 2017 Labour offered free tuition fees and got student vote

    Offering free stuff wins voter approval - who knew?

    so why didnt the Tories do it ?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 2,016
    Scott_P said:

    My first thought was Ken Clarke, but I think Hague would be a better choice.

    Either would send the headbangers over the top.
    #JC4DPM
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024


    murali_s said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:


    Where was the attack on the economy?
    Where was the focus on Labour's policies?
    Where was the daily press conference pounding the opposition's key figures (Abbott etc)

    They bet the farm on Corbyn's past being a killer AND on his being useless on the campaign trail - there was a quite explicit decision to stay off the airwaves and "let him hang himself", even some gloating comments to journos that they were complaining to the BBC that he wasn't getting enough airtime. Quibbling about the manifesto was seen as a distraction from the main job of rubbishing him. The Tory strategists were cheerily cynical about it all and precisely deserve what they got.
    True. But it's also why Labour shouldn't be complacent about the next election. E.g. Kensington likely Tory gain & am sure there are others
    Yes, with a better leader and no attack on property rights Kensington, Canterbury and a few others will swing back fairly easily.
    Canterbury maybe, but London is and will continue to swing for Labour. Tories will be left with a handful of seats around the periphery.
    I couldn't believe how close Chipping Barnet was. Even in 97 the majority was 1100. This time 350
    Revenge of the Remainers against a prominent Leaver?
    Quite possibly.
    I have 5 constituency boundaries within one mile of where I'm sitting. 2 are now red. The red tide creeping closer.
    I feel your pain. Hallam turned Red for the first time ever.

    Even Blair never managed that.
    Uni fees

    my son - whos still at Uni - said it was the high point of the election
    It's really good the young are voting on self interest. We wil make Tories out of them yet.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 52,911
    Mr. P, the epic incompetence is not in doubt, but neither Timothy nor Hill came up with anything as 'absolutely bloody brilliant' as McBride's poison.
  • glwglw Posts: 6,035
    edited June 2017

    Watching all the Brexiteers furious because they've found that there are other successful forms of crazy populism is very funny.

    Is the only joy from the last 48 hours I've experienced.
    I ain't over yet. I think this is possibly the new norm. Where Governments winning two elections in a row might become rare, and referendums routinely give the "wrong" answer.

    I don't think this is all down to "austerity" or the financial crash either. Politicians and the media have lost control of the message, the top-down approach can no longer work when the internet is the dominant medium. Ideas and movements can more easily rise up, and making logical sense or the sums adding up are not a requirement for success. In future expect the "establishment" to always do worse than expected.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    nunu said:

    IDS would have changed tack when it was clear the campaigm was going badly wrong.

    IDS was practically the only senior Tory who took to the airwaves, and his line is keep calm and carry on with Brexit

    He won't change tack even after the boat has capsized
  • TypoTypo Posts: 195
    edited June 2017
    Some of the new Labour majorities in London are incredible. Nearly 30,000 in Dulwich and West Norwood. It is a safe seat obviously but there are some lovely and well-heeled parts of that seats (Dulwich Village itself of course but also to a lesser extent areas such as Crystal Palace (some of which is in the seat) which are rather nice places to live these days).
  • jonny83jonny83 Posts: 833
    LucyJones said:


    PB Tories, do you regard May as being much worse than IDS now?

    She appears to have no political antennae or self-awareness....

    At the moment, quite possibly. But she could possibly redeem herself to a certain extent, depending on how she handles the time between now and the time of her resignation.

    First of all, though, if her advisors won't fall on their swords voluntarily, she needs to sack them, ASAP. The handling of the election campaign tells us that they were useless at their jobs. The Times article tells us that they were also divisive, dismissive characters.

    I agree, she could still redeem herself here a bit but she is going to have to change her way of government. Get back to collective government, giving more autonomy to departments like Cameron instead of being controlling like Brown.

    And those advisers have to go and be replaced, she has to show she is willing to do that and not being forced to.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 13,950
    An invite to Theresa May's leaving drinks is doing the rounds on Facebook.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Mr. P, the epic incompetence is not in doubt, but neither Timothy nor Hill came up with anything as 'absolutely bloody brilliant' as McBride's poison.

    Yes they did, although it has been targeted exclusively at cabinet colleagues, not opposition MP spouses
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    nichomar said:

    nunu said:

    Another observation from elsewhere, a party led by a man who believes that immigration is not too high nearly won the popular vote on Thursday.

    Less than a year after the referendum.

    Ponder on that.

    Yes because the public no longer believe anyone will do a thing about it. He also used the words "managed migration" even though we all know saying those words were like pulling teeth for him.
    Surely the answer to meet 60% of the population is EEA EFTA keep freedom of movement and crack down dramatically on non eu migration by limiting family to existing spouse only ano only parents of single child families. Should keep most people reasonably happy
    The courts will never accept that.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 20,889
    nunu said:


    murali_s said:

    MaxPB said:

    Charles said:


    Where was the attack on the economy?
    Where was the focus on Labour's policies?
    Where was the daily press conference pounding the opposition's key figures (Abbott etc)

    They bet the farm on Corbyn's past being a killer AND on his being useless on the campaign trail - there was a quite explicit decision to stay off the airwaves and "let him hang himself", even some gloating comments to journos that they were complaining to the BBC that he wasn't getting enough airtime. Quibbling about the manifesto was seen as a distraction from the main job of rubbishing him. The Tory strategists were cheerily cynical about it all and precisely deserve what they got.
    True. But it's also why Labour shouldn't be complacent about the next election. E.g. Kensington likely Tory gain & am sure there are others
    Yes, with a better leader and no attack on property rights Kensington, Canterbury and a few others will swing back fairly easily.
    Canterbury maybe, but London is and will continue to swing for Labour. Tories will be left with a handful of seats around the periphery.
    I couldn't believe how close Chipping Barnet was. Even in 97 the majority was 1100. This time 350
    Revenge of the Remainers against a prominent Leaver?
    Quite possibly.
    I have 5 constituency boundaries within one mile of where I'm sitting. 2 are now red. The red tide creeping closer.
    I feel your pain. Hallam turned Red for the first time ever.

    Even Blair never managed that.
    Uni fees

    my son - whos still at Uni - said it was the high point of the election
    It's really good the young are voting on self interest. We wil make Tories out of them yet.
    I agree

    one of the best things in this election is it shows our young folk arent a bunch of sheep
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCNormanS: Am told Theresa May will face leadership challenge unless she sacks her two chief aides Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill

    No shit
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    Liddington did PMQs as the stand in for May.

    Very pro EU though.
  • LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    I may be clutching at straws and although I didn't watch all of the results programmes, I did notice that even in seats which Labour won, the tory share was up. I stand to be corrected but I think Yvette Cooper's seat was one of them!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 69,562
    edited June 2017

    PB Tories, do you regard May as being much worse than IDS now?

    She appears to have no political antennae or self-awareness....

    The worst Tory leader in my lifetime was neither IDS or May but William Hague. Hague fought one election and lost by a landslide and got just 31% and 160 or so seats, under IDS the Tories generally polled a little higher than Hague against Blair and May still got 43% of the vote on Thursday and 318 seats. I am a great fan of Hague personally, he is a brilliant speaker and very intelligent but as Tory leader he was a disaster
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 3,399
    Surprised YouGov's model isn't being discussed more. It was highly accurate and predicted several gains like Canterbury and Kensington that were derided here. Had to be the future of polling.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @BBCNormanS: Senior Tories say Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill must be sacked this weekend or leadership challenge on Monday
  • MyBurningEarsMyBurningEars Posts: 3,417
    edited June 2017
    The Tories can win big without the support of the young'uns. No point going after the votes of right-on 21 year olds, they don't have enough to bribe them with! But they had leads among the early middle aged 35-45s and a big one among the middle aged to pre-retirement 45-65s at the start of the campaign and I think this is what they couldn't afford to lose. For the thirtysomethings they needed a better offering on housing, for the older workers on social care/inheritance, maybe even Winter Fuel etc. Even something for uni students (even living support of some kind rather than reduced fees) might have helped with middle aged parents.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 1,939
    LucyJones said:

    ab195 said:

    alex. said:

    Mr. Abode, it's ridiculous. There's no need for the DUP to be involved. The deal should be cancelled.

    If they had a vote on abortion limits, the DUP wouldn't even be eligible for it under EVFEL.
    The optics are terrible. Years of de-toxification undone.

    My god, I'm turning into TSE
    My anger is growing not subsiding at Mrs May.

    Because of that moron good people like Edward Timpson have been screwed by that failed Turing Test that is Mrs May.
    I posted this yesterday. Friend was on the blower from that area spitting feathers about Timpson losing and they aren't even natural Tory supporter, but thought he was a decent person and good constituency MP.

    It is mighty impressive to piss people off so much that your candidate in a Brexit supporting area, who has had no scandal or said dinosaur-esque stuff, and family name has wide brand recognition as a good employer and lots of work for chairty manages to lose.
    I have friends in Crewe who I know voted Labour. I suggest you lost many seats because public sector workers who work hard day and night to provide education, health and services for the common good and who might otherwise be natural Tory supporters have had enough of the Tory Government treating them like pariahs.
    Yup, conservatives have been attacking public sector workers for years, despite many of them voting Tory in 2010 and starting out accepting the need for some cuts. They are now at the stage where wanting a pay rise, government that doesn't think they should all aspire to working in the private sector instead, and possibly some of their lost terms and conditions back, far outweighs any interest in geopolitical questions like the future of Trident. "Sod it", they may start to think, "there are enough moderates in the PLP to keep Jezza in check, I want my payrise". And they still have enough votes that the Tories could do with a few of them.
    My husband (working in the private sector) took a 20% pay cut in about 2008, just to keep his job (as did everyone else at his firm). I think he has just about got back to where he was, salary wise. His is not a uncommon story. Public sector workers haven't suffered more than the rest of us, they just shout louder about it.
    But when you've just seen billions of public money invested in maintaining finance industry lifestyles it rather sticks in the craw Lucy.
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