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  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850

    tlg86 said:

    Chris said:

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Grow up
    Wake Up

    Jeremy Vine‏Verified account @theJeremyVine 20h20 hours ago
    More
    Incredulous at this. Faced with a choice between flammable panels and fire-resistant ones, they chose the flammables.
    Total saved: £5,000
    I'm not sure all the information about the panels is 100% accurate. A couple of hours ago Jim Reed of the BBC was saying it wasn't clear whether the fire-retardant version was available at the time of the work.
    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.
    Which 'politicians' are these?

    The architects were probably responsible for choosing the type of panels (assuming their directions were followed by builders and suppliers). I'm guessing the only way 'politicians' would have got involved is through the planning process - and then they'd have been more bothered about the final look of the building.
    But I thought, going on the BBC's balanced and objective coverage, that Theresa May and Saddiq Khan had been up the scaffold nailing in said killer panels themselves?
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    A question for whoever draws up building regulations, surely, but I bet we'll find it had something to do with avoiding climate change.

    Does anyone think Docklands penthouses are built to any better standard?

    It is certainly partly driven by energy standards, as the project documents make that point. It does look a little like "safety first" has come second to tackling climate change.
  • DeClareDeClare Posts: 483

    David Lammy MP on Grenfell Tower fire: "This is a tale of two cities. This is what Dickens was writing about"

    A tale of two cities was about London and Paris wasn't it?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    @SeanT

    If your gf is at SOAS it's no surprise she's a leftie.

    I was on the governing committee at LSHTM - given its focus on public health and neglected diseases in the developing world it's pretty left wing.

    And we regarded SOAS as well out there...
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Roger said:

    We are seeing a potent example of the butterfly effect which started with some bad polling by Yougov........

    Cameron being led to believe he was losing the 2015 election offered an extremely minor party to call a referendum......

    the rest is a catalogue of errors which led through Brexit to the possible destruction of the Tory Party and the first Marxist government this country has had and the rest is too early to predict.

    You can add Cameron promises of no increases in tax rates but guarantees of spending increases while not expecting to have to implement them.

    And before that Clegg's promises on tuition fees when not expecting to be in government.

    Or every other magic money tree funded promise from establishment politicians.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Barnesian said:

    HYUFD said:

    OllyT said:

    HYUFD said:

    OllyT said:

    OllyT said:

    It can't be Hammond.

    Whoever takes over from May has to be trusted on Brexit and to deliver it, or the party will split.

    Given where we are it really is about time the Tories started thinking about what will be in the country's best interests not the best way to avoid a party split
    Delivering Brexit as the country voted for is in the country's best interests.
    When May goes the elderly Tory membership will chose a leader that best approximates UKIP's position and won't give a stuff if it harms the economy.
    Why? The Tory membership elected Cameron, the MPs elected May?
    Holding their noses after 3 successive GE defeats. In the current environment they would go for a kamikaze Brexiteer, I'd put money on it.
    They will probably only get a choice of 2 of Boris, Davis, Hammond and Rudd, none of whom are 'kamikaze Brexiteers.' The likes of ID'S, Patterson and Rees-Mogg who are 'kamikaze Brexiteers' will not get put to the membership

    Indeed I could well see MPs choosing Hammond and David as the final 2 and Boris failing to make the final cut
    Yes - I think that too. It would be sensible of MPs to do that.
    Tory MPs are incredibly calculating and certainly a Hammond v Davis runoff is possible
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    GIN1138 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Grow up
    Wake Up

    Jeremy Vine‏Verified account @theJeremyVine 20h20 hours ago
    More
    Incredulous at this. Faced with a choice between flammable panels and fire-resistant ones, they chose the flammables.
    Total saved: £5,000
    Given that they had £120,000 per flat to spend, it clearly was not shortage of money. It is quite possibly the case that the money was spent badly.
    I wonder whether the panels chosen were "better" from a Climate Change POV?
    If they had a better insulation factor and were cheaper the need to reduce carbon would have made the decision for the authorities.

    This tragedy will have many twists and turns as it unfolds over the coming months and years
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    nunuone said:

    Fpt
    "3:59PM
    My Corbynista girlfriend thinks the Grenfell fire was the explicit fault of the Tory government and evil capitalist landlords.

    By contrast, she has suspicions about the Manchester attack, and wonders if it might have been a false flag, or some kind of hoax.

    She probably has an IQ of 140 and studies Hindi and Anthropology at SOAS.

    Were we this mad at 21? Have the younger generation replaced drugs and booze with conspiracy theories and mass psychosis? I am genuinely bewildered."

    Its because of the internet, whereas before if you believed these things you would only find one or two people who thought like you now you will find a whole community to confirm your biases. The more people you find the more confirmation bias you have. Also the left wing young have always blamed the Tory government for everything. So maybe things haven't changed that much.......

    According to the Evening Standard tonight the new Labour MP for Kensington was on the Kensington and Chelsea council housing committee
    That's as may be so but on any LA committee your influence is somewhat limited unless you're in the administration.
    The housing committee would have been key, they and the architects and the construction firm are the ones who really need to be questioned
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Sean_F said:

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Grow up
    Wake Up

    Jeremy Vine‏Verified account @theJeremyVine 20h20 hours ago
    More
    Incredulous at this. Faced with a choice between flammable panels and fire-resistant ones, they chose the flammables.
    Total saved: £5,000
    Given that they had £120,000 per flat to spend, it clearly was not shortage of money. It is quite possibly the case that the money was spent badly.
    For that money they could have built or bought proper houses outside London.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,723
    They should leave #GrenfellTower standing as a stark monument to callousness, inequality & greed.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    The Osborne strategy was based on a vast wealth transfer from the young to the old:

    ' Student loan debt in the UK has risen to more than £100bn for the first time, underlining the rising costs young people face in order to get a university education.

    Outstanding debt on loans jumped by 16.6% to £100.5bn at the end of March, up from £86.2bn a year earlier, according to the Student Loans Company. England accounted for £89.3bn of the total.

    Sebastian Burnside, a senior economist at NatWest, said student debt was rising at a faster pace than any other form of debt, and eclipsed credit card debt of £68bn. “These latest figures show student debt is becoming of greater priority with every passing year. Student debt is the fastest growing type of borrowing and is rapidly becoming economically significant.”

    Burnside predicted that over the longer term, student loan debt was likely to double to £200bn in six years. '

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jun/15/uk-student-loan-debt-soars-to-more-than-100bn

    And IIRC student tuition fees aren't even classed as debt by the BoE but rather as deferred taxation.

    Makes sense as they're a bizarre capped income tax.

    If it wasn't for the interest then I would think it was quite a neat little graduate tax. The interest rate on the new ones is punitive though and should be scrapped.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunuone said:

    Fpt
    "3:59PM
    My Corbynista girlfriend thinks the Grenfell fire was the explicit fault of the Tory government and evil capitalist landlords.

    By contrast, she has suspicions about the Manchester attack, and wonders if it might have been a false flag, or some kind of hoax.

    She probably has an IQ of 140 and studies Hindi and Anthropology at SOAS.

    Were we this mad at 21? Have the younger generation replaced drugs and booze with conspiracy theories and mass psychosis? I am genuinely bewildered."

    Its because of the internet, whereas before if you believed these things you would only find one or two people who thought like you now you will find a whole community to confirm your biases. The more people you find the more confirmation bias you have. Also the left wing young have always blamed the Tory government for everything. So maybe things haven't changed that much.......

    According to the Evening Standard tonight the new Labour MP for Kensington was on the Kensington and Chelsea council housing committee
    That's as may be so but on any LA committee your influence is somewhat limited unless you're in the administration.
    The housing committee would have been key, they and the architects and the construction firm are the ones who really need to be questioned
    Wasn't the new labour MP on one of the committees. I have not seen her cross examined yet
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tlg86 said:

    Chris said:

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Grow up
    Wake Up

    Jeremy Vine‏Verified account @theJeremyVine 20h20 hours ago
    More
    Incredulous at this. Faced with a choice between flammable panels and fire-resistant ones, they chose the flammables.
    Total saved: £5,000
    I'm not sure all the information about the panels is 100% accurate. A couple of hours ago Jim Reed of the BBC was saying it wasn't clear whether the fire-retardant version was available at the time of the work.
    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.
    Because Building regulations permitted its use. It's not as if the committee did something illegal - there has been a tragedy and we need to understand what went wrong and how to avoid it in future. A blame culture doesn't help
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    They should leave #GrenfellTower standing as a stark monument to callousness, inequality & greed.

    You really can be a f*ckwit at times. You have no idea of the underlying causes of this tragedy but of course you would never miss an opportunity to make a political point on the graves of people not even yet in the ground.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    edited June 2017

    They should leave #GrenfellTower standing as a stark monument to callousness, inequality & greed.

    It needs to be demolished and a commemorative garden created
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    The people who wet the bed if someone suggests a Muslim is behind a terror attack before the suspect is identified should be sleeping on rubber mattresses for weeks over the political points made over this fire
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    DeClare said:

    David Lammy MP on Grenfell Tower fire: "This is a tale of two cities. This is what Dickens was writing about"

    A tale of two cities was about London and Paris wasn't it?
    Lammy is well know for being rather thick.

    This would be a better equivalent Victorian novel:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_(novel)

    ' Sybil, or The Two Nations is an 1845 novel by Benjamin Disraeli. Published in the same year as Friedrich Engels's The Condition of the Working Class in England in 1844, Sybil traces the plight of the working classes of England. Disraeli was interested in dealing with the horrific conditions in which the majority of England's working classes lived — or, what is generally called the Condition of England question.

    The book is a roman à thèse, or a novel with a thesis — which was meant to create a furor over the squalor that was plaguing England's working class cities. '

  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    Chris said:

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Grow up
    Wake Up

    Jeremy Vine‏Verified account @theJeremyVine 20h20 hours ago
    More
    Incredulous at this. Faced with a choice between flammable panels and fire-resistant ones, they chose the flammables.
    Total saved: £5,000
    I'm not sure all the information about the panels is 100% accurate. A couple of hours ago Jim Reed of the BBC was saying it wasn't clear whether the fire-retardant version was available at the time of the work.
    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.
    Because Building regulations permitted its use. It's not as if the committee did something illegal - there has been a tragedy and we need to understand what went wrong and how to avoid it in future. A blame culture doesn't help
    Okay, fine. But who was paying for this and what were they trying to achieve?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009

    DeClare said:

    David Lammy MP on Grenfell Tower fire: "This is a tale of two cities. This is what Dickens was writing about"

    A tale of two cities was about London and Paris wasn't it?
    Lammy is well know for being rather thick.

    This would be a better equivalent Victorian novel:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_(novel)

    ' Sybil, or The Two Nations is an 1845 novel by Benjamin Disraeli. Published in the same year as Friedrich Engels's The Condition of the Working Class in England in 1844, Sybil traces the plight of the working classes of England. Disraeli was interested in dealing with the horrific conditions in which the majority of England's working classes lived — or, what is generally called the Condition of England question.

    The book is a roman à thèse, or a novel with a thesis — which was meant to create a furor over the squalor that was plaguing England's working class cities. '

    Yes - I'll bet Lammy was confusing Dickens and Disraeli.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    They should leave #GrenfellTower standing as a stark monument to callousness, inequality & greed.

    Your comment does raise a question I was talking to my dad about today: how will the shell be demolished? Explosive demo might not be seen to be appropriate, but the other options are dismantlement that not only costs more (which won't be an issue), but puts workmen in danger. This is doubly true on a fire-damaged structure.

    Perhaps they should try the Japanese demolition-from-the-bottom-up technique ...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-2Y2MYpl2g
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    The Osborne strategy was based on a vast wealth transfer from the young to the old:

    ' Student loan debt in the UK has risen to more than £100bn for the first time, underlining the rising costs young people face in order to get a university education.

    Outstanding debt on loans jumped by 16.6% to £100.5bn at the end of March, up from £86.2bn a year earlier, according to the Student Loans Company. England accounted for £89.3bn of the total.

    Sebastian Burnside, a senior economist at NatWest, said student debt was rising at a faster pace than any other form of debt, and eclipsed credit card debt of £68bn. “These latest figures show student debt is becoming of greater priority with every passing year. Student debt is the fastest growing type of borrowing and is rapidly becoming economically significant.”

    Burnside predicted that over the longer term, student loan debt was likely to double to £200bn in six years. '

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jun/15/uk-student-loan-debt-soars-to-more-than-100bn

    And IIRC student tuition fees aren't even classed as debt by the BoE but rather as deferred taxation.

    Makes sense as they're a bizarre capped income tax.

    If it wasn't for the interest then I would think it was quite a neat little graduate tax. The interest rate on the new ones is punitive though and should be scrapped.
    The interest rate should be limited to inflation.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Sean_F said:

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Grow up
    Wake Up

    Jeremy Vine‏Verified account @theJeremyVine 20h20 hours ago
    More
    Incredulous at this. Faced with a choice between flammable panels and fire-resistant ones, they chose the flammables.
    Total saved: £5,000
    Given that they had £120,000 per flat to spend, it clearly was not shortage of money. It is quite possibly the case that the money was spent badly.

    The Osborne strategy was based on a vast wealth transfer from the young to the old:

    ' Student loan debt in the UK has risen to more than £100bn for the first time, underlining the rising costs young people face in order to get a university education.

    Outstanding debt on loans jumped by 16.6% to £100.5bn at the end of March, up from £86.2bn a year earlier, according to the Student Loans Company. England accounted for £89.3bn of the total.

    Sebastian Burnside, a senior economist at NatWest, said student debt was rising at a faster pace than any other form of debt, and eclipsed credit card debt of £68bn. “These latest figures show student debt is becoming of greater priority with every passing year. Student debt is the fastest growing type of borrowing and is rapidly becoming economically significant.”

    Burnside predicted that over the longer term, student loan debt was likely to double to £200bn in six years. '

    https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/jun/15/uk-student-loan-debt-soars-to-more-than-100bn

    And IIRC student tuition fees aren't even classed as debt by the BoE but rather as deferred taxation.

    Surely the loan is classified for immediate deficit, then the repayments as they come in are classified as surplus :> ?
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    edited June 2017
    DeClare said:

    David Lammy MP on Grenfell Tower fire: "This is a tale of two cities. This is what Dickens was writing about"

    A tale of two cities was about London and Paris wasn't it?
    I thought the two sentences were separate, many of his other books and stories were about the London inequalities so that would cover the second part. But yes, he could be linking the two...
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    Chris said:

    DeClare said:

    David Lammy MP on Grenfell Tower fire: "This is a tale of two cities. This is what Dickens was writing about"

    A tale of two cities was about London and Paris wasn't it?
    Lammy is well know for being rather thick.

    This would be a better equivalent Victorian novel:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_(novel)

    ' Sybil, or The Two Nations is an 1845 novel by Benjamin Disraeli. Published in the same year as Friedrich Engels's The Condition of the Working Class in England in 1844, Sybil traces the plight of the working classes of England. Disraeli was interested in dealing with the horrific conditions in which the majority of England's working classes lived — or, what is generally called the Condition of England question.

    The book is a roman à thèse, or a novel with a thesis — which was meant to create a furor over the squalor that was plaguing England's working class cities. '

    Yes - I'll bet Lammy was confusing Dickens and Disraeli.
    Haha :+1:
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    isam said:

    The people who wet the bed if someone suggests a Muslim is behind a terror attack before the suspect is identified should be sleeping on rubber mattresses for weeks over the political points made over this fire

    Yes it does seem a different set of rules are applying right now when the broadcasters have set speculation to the maximum level.
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928

    Sean_F said:

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Grow up
    Wake Up

    Jeremy Vine‏Verified account @theJeremyVine 20h20 hours ago
    More
    Incredulous at this. Faced with a choice between flammable panels and fire-resistant ones, they chose the flammables.
    Total saved: £5,000
    Given that they had £120,000 per flat to spend, it clearly was not shortage of money. It is quite possibly the case that the money was spent badly.
    For that money they could have built or bought proper houses outside London.
    Here we go again. Does your obsession with effecting a London exodus ever end?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    Chris said:

    DeClare said:

    David Lammy MP on Grenfell Tower fire: "This is a tale of two cities. This is what Dickens was writing about"

    A tale of two cities was about London and Paris wasn't it?
    Lammy is well know for being rather thick.

    This would be a better equivalent Victorian novel:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_(novel)

    ' Sybil, or The Two Nations is an 1845 novel by Benjamin Disraeli. Published in the same year as Friedrich Engels's The Condition of the Working Class in England in 1844, Sybil traces the plight of the working classes of England. Disraeli was interested in dealing with the horrific conditions in which the majority of England's working classes lived — or, what is generally called the Condition of England question.

    The book is a roman à thèse, or a novel with a thesis — which was meant to create a furor over the squalor that was plaguing England's working class cities. '

    Yes - I'll bet Lammy was confusing Dickens and Disraeli.
    Lammy was confused is a general theme about him isn't it
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    So we've now devoured the mail and express and believe its climate change regolations and the EU to blame
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    nunuone said:

    Fpt
    "3:59PM
    My Corbynista girlfriend thinks the Grenfell fire was the explicit fault of the Tory government and evil capitalist landlords.

    By contrast, she has suspicions about the Manchester attack, and wonders if it might have been a false flag, or some kind of hoax.

    She probably has an IQ of 140 and studies Hindi and Anthropology at SOAS.

    Were we this mad at 21? Have the younger generation replaced drugs and booze with conspiracy theories and mass psychosis? I am genuinely bewildered."

    Its because of the internet, whereas before if you believed these things you would only find one or two people who thought like you now you will find a whole community to confirm your biases. The more people you find the more confirmation bias you have. Also the left wing young have always blamed the Tory government for everything. So maybe things haven't changed that much.......

    According to the Evening Standard tonight the new Labour MP for Kensington was on the Kensington and Chelsea council housing committee
    That's as may be so but on any LA committee your influence is somewhat limited unless you're in the administration.
    The housing committee would have been key, they and the architects and the construction firm are the ones who really need to be questioned
    Wasn't the new labour MP on one of the committees. I have not seen her cross examined yet
    Emma Dent-Coad, yes
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    tlg86 said:

    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    Chris said:

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Grow up
    Wake Up

    Jeremy Vine‏Verified account @theJeremyVine 20h20 hours ago
    More
    Incredulous at this. Faced with a choice between flammable panels and fire-resistant ones, they chose the flammables.
    Total saved: £5,000
    I'm not sure all the information about the panels is 100% accurate. A couple of hours ago Jim Reed of the BBC was saying it wasn't clear whether the fire-retardant version was available at the time of the work.
    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.
    Because Building regulations permitted its use. It's not as if the committee did something illegal - there has been a tragedy and we need to understand what went wrong and how to avoid it in future. A blame culture doesn't help
    Okay, fine. But who was paying for this and what were they trying to achieve?
    It will all be in the committee papers but I'd assume:

    - updating to modern building standards
    - improving energy efficiency
    - good estate management
    - cosmetic improvements for residents and other locals
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850

    Chris said:

    DeClare said:

    David Lammy MP on Grenfell Tower fire: "This is a tale of two cities. This is what Dickens was writing about"

    A tale of two cities was about London and Paris wasn't it?
    Lammy is well know for being rather thick.

    This would be a better equivalent Victorian novel:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_(novel)

    ' Sybil, or The Two Nations is an 1845 novel by Benjamin Disraeli. Published in the same year as Friedrich Engels's The Condition of the Working Class in England in 1844, Sybil traces the plight of the working classes of England. Disraeli was interested in dealing with the horrific conditions in which the majority of England's working classes lived — or, what is generally called the Condition of England question.

    The book is a roman à thèse, or a novel with a thesis — which was meant to create a furor over the squalor that was plaguing England's working class cities. '

    Yes - I'll bet Lammy was confusing Dickens and Disraeli.
    Lammy was confused is a general theme about him isn't it
    He seems to be made a spokesman for many things by the media but what qualifies him nobody has a clue.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Please take us through your thinking on that last sentence. Why is it 'blood money' ? Or are you just making sick political capital out of a tragedy?
    Wouldn't expect anything more from a corbyn cultist. They are like Trumpsters, truly disgusting creatures.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    nichomar said:

    So we've now devoured the mail and express and believe its climate change regolations and the EU to blame

    It may or may not be. The need to put in place the most energy efficient panels may be a salient point
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    edited June 2017
    Channel 4 read the Cameroons on PB. Surely the don't tell Brexiteers to enjoy it as well though?

    https://twitter.com/oflynnmep/status/875789583631302657
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    HaroldO said:

    DeClare said:

    David Lammy MP on Grenfell Tower fire: "This is a tale of two cities. This is what Dickens was writing about"

    A tale of two cities was about London and Paris wasn't it?
    I thought the two sentences were separate, many of his other books and stories were about the London inequalities so that would cover the second part. But yes, he could be linking the two...
    TBF he probably doesn't know that's where the phrase comes from...
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    tlg86 said:

    Chris said:

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Grow up
    Wake Up

    Jeremy Vine‏Verified account @theJeremyVine 20h20 hours ago
    More
    Incredulous at this. Faced with a choice between flammable panels and fire-resistant ones, they chose the flammables.
    Total saved: £5,000
    I'm not sure all the information about the panels is 100% accurate. A couple of hours ago Jim Reed of the BBC was saying it wasn't clear whether the fire-retardant version was available at the time of the work.
    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.
    Which 'politicians' are these?

    The architects were probably responsible for choosing the type of panels (assuming their directions were followed by builders and suppliers). I'm guessing the only way 'politicians' would have got involved is through the planning process - and then they'd have been more bothered about the final look of the building.
    Of course it's a good idea to make housing more energy efficient, cheaper to run and to look better. Of course it should be safe before anything else. The decision to use cladding that burns is inexplicable.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    nichomar said:

    So we've now devoured the mail and express and believe its climate change regolations and the EU to blame

    It's not the papers, it's in the documents about the project.

    So it's not about blaming such regulations, but it is true that the cladding is added in part to improve energy efficiency. In the old days when we didn't care about such stuff the building would probably have kept the existing facade.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    He seems to be made a spokesman for many things by the media but what qualifies him nobody has a clue.

    David Lammy MP

    The clue is at the end.
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009
    GIN1138 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Grow up
    Wake Up

    Jeremy Vine‏Verified account @theJeremyVine 20h20 hours ago
    More
    Incredulous at this. Faced with a choice between flammable panels and fire-resistant ones, they chose the flammables.
    Total saved: £5,000
    Given that they had £120,000 per flat to spend, it clearly was not shortage of money. It is quite possibly the case that the money was spent badly.
    I wonder whether the panels chosen were "better" from a Climate Change POV?
    Given that insulation is the purpose of the cladding, it's not likely that the cheaper cladding is a more efficient insulator than the more expensive cladding, is it?
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    Charles said:

    HaroldO said:

    DeClare said:

    David Lammy MP on Grenfell Tower fire: "This is a tale of two cities. This is what Dickens was writing about"

    A tale of two cities was about London and Paris wasn't it?
    I thought the two sentences were separate, many of his other books and stories were about the London inequalities so that would cover the second part. But yes, he could be linking the two...
    TBF he probably doesn't know that's where the phrase comes from...
    I think he's read about what Dickens wrote, rather than what he actually wrote. I mean Mr Jaggers is hard work, but worth it.
    An excellent read this by the way, if anyone is interested;

    http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/the-victorian-city-everyday-life-in-dickenss-london-by-judith-flanders-8197955.html
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    Sean_F said:

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Grow up
    Wake Up

    Jeremy Vine‏Verified account @theJeremyVine 20h20 hours ago
    More
    Incredulous at this. Faced with a choice between flammable panels and fire-resistant ones, they chose the flammables.
    Total saved: £5,000
    Given that they had £120,000 per flat to spend, it clearly was not shortage of money. It is quite possibly the case that the money was spent badly.
    For that money they could have built or bought proper houses outside London.
    Here we go again. Does your obsession with effecting a London exodus ever end?
    Its you who has the obsession and for some reason about my comments.

    Perhaps you don't know but for many years it was the policy of governments at all levels to build new homes outside the cities for the residents of inner city slums to relocate to for a better life.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_towns_in_the_United_Kingdom

    Doubtless you would have been in a fury about Clem Atlee and his government for 'effecting a London exodus'.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    tlg86 said:

    Chris said:

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Grow up
    Wake Up

    Jeremy Vine‏Verified account @theJeremyVine 20h20 hours ago
    More
    Incredulous at this. Faced with a choice between flammable panels and fire-resistant ones, they chose the flammables.
    Total saved: £5,000
    I'm not sure all the information about the panels is 100% accurate. A couple of hours ago Jim Reed of the BBC was saying it wasn't clear whether the fire-retardant version was available at the time of the work.
    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.
    Which 'politicians' are these?

    The architects were probably responsible for choosing the type of panels (assuming their directions were followed by builders and suppliers). I'm guessing the only way 'politicians' would have got involved is through the planning process - and then they'd have been more bothered about the final look of the building.
    Of course it's a good idea to make housing more energy efficient, cheaper to run and to look better. Of course it should be safe before anything else. The decision to use cladding that burns is inexplicable.
    It's entirely explicable.

    The building regulations said it was ok. Why should the committee second guess the experts?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    tlg86 said:

    Chris said:

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Grow up
    Wake Up

    Jeremy Vine‏Verified account @theJeremyVine 20h20 hours ago
    More
    Incredulous at this. Faced with a choice between flammable panels and fire-resistant ones, they chose the flammables.
    Total saved: £5,000
    I'm not sure all the information about the panels is 100% accurate. A couple of hours ago Jim Reed of the BBC was saying it wasn't clear whether the fire-retardant version was available at the time of the work.
    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.
    Which 'politicians' are these?

    The architects were probably responsible for choosing the type of panels (assuming their directions were followed by builders and suppliers). I'm guessing the only way 'politicians' would have got involved is through the planning process - and then they'd have been more bothered about the final look of the building.
    Of course it's a good idea to make housing more energy efficient, cheaper to run and to look better. Of course it should be safe before anything else. The decision to use cladding that burns is inexplicable.
    Yep. The authorities were trying to improve the lot of the residents. Whether that was by energy efficiency, improving the environment and how people feel about their homes or improving the facilities is immaterial. They were trying to make things better.

    This doesn't in any way excuse them if they made bad decisions and people died because of it, but the idea that this is because people didn't care is pretty perverse.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    edited June 2017
    Chris said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Grow up
    Wake Up

    Jeremy Vine‏Verified account @theJeremyVine 20h20 hours ago
    More
    Incredulous at this. Faced with a choice between flammable panels and fire-resistant ones, they chose the flammables.
    Total saved: £5,000
    Given that they had £120,000 per flat to spend, it clearly was not shortage of money. It is quite possibly the case that the money was spent badly.
    I wonder whether the panels chosen were "better" from a Climate Change POV?
    Given that insulation is the purpose of the cladding, it's not likely that the cheaper cladding is a more efficient insulator than the more expensive cladding, is it?
    Only an architect or a QS could tell you that
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    glw said:

    nichomar said:

    So we've now devoured the mail and express and believe its climate change regolations and the EU to blame

    It's not the papers, it's in the documents about the project.

    So it's not about blaming such regulations, but it is true that the cladding is added in part to improve energy efficiency. In the old days when we didn't care about such stuff the building would probably have kept the existing facade.
    I actually thought the primary objective was to improve the visual appearance but i might be wrong
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    9 out of 10 times lammy would be better saying I don't know, I pass....Just like his mastermind appearance.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,718
    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    Charles said:

    tlg86 said:

    Chris said:

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Grow up
    Wake Up

    Jeremy Vine‏Verified account @theJeremyVine 20h20 hours ago
    More
    Incredulous at this. Faced with a choice between flammable panels and fire-resistant ones, they chose the flammables.
    Total saved: £5,000
    I'm not sure all the information about the panels is 100% accurate. A couple of hours ago Jim Reed of the BBC was saying it wasn't clear whether the fire-retardant version was available at the time of the work.
    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.
    Because Building regulations permitted its use. It's not as if the committee did something illegal - there has been a tragedy and we need to understand what went wrong and how to avoid it in future. A blame culture doesn't help
    Okay, fine. But who was paying for this and what were they trying to achieve?
    It will all be in the committee papers but I'd assume:

    - updating to modern building standards
    - improving energy efficiency
    - good estate management
    - cosmetic improvements for residents and other locals
    Agree, Mr C, but there was unquestionably an element of lowest cost. There used to be a rule of thumb that one accepted the lowest-but-one tender, which seems to have gone by the bye
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850
    JackW said:

    He seems to be made a spokesman for many things by the media but what qualifies him nobody has a clue.

    David Lammy MP

    The clue is at the end.
    Yeah, but on telly a lot, is what I'm saying. Is he Labour spokesman for something, or is it just Lammy loving the spotlight, as he has been accused of before? Politics being show business for ugly people, after all.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    They should leave #GrenfellTower standing as a stark monument to callousness, inequality & greed.

    Greed of the non-profit sector who decided not to spend the money given to them by the council?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,911
    tlg86 said:

    Chris said:

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Grow up
    Wake Up

    Jeremy Vine‏Verified account @theJeremyVine 20h20 hours ago
    More
    Incredulous at this. Faced with a choice between flammable panels and fire-resistant ones, they chose the flammables.
    Total saved: £5,000
    I'm not sure all the information about the panels is 100% accurate. A couple of hours ago Jim Reed of the BBC was saying it wasn't clear whether the fire-retardant version was available at the time of the work.
    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.
    Ghastly? Yours for £1712 per calendar month...

    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-59885887.html
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009
    edited June 2017

    Chris said:

    GIN1138 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Theresa May has announced an £8,333 aid package for each person caught up in the Grenfell tragedy (about 6 months rent in London)

    Blood Money

    Grow up
    Wake Up

    Jeremy Vine‏Verified account @theJeremyVine 20h20 hours ago
    More
    Incredulous at this. Faced with a choice between flammable panels and fire-resistant ones, they chose the flammables.
    Total saved: £5,000
    Given that they had £120,000 per flat to spend, it clearly was not shortage of money. It is quite possibly the case that the money was spent badly.
    I wonder whether the panels chosen were "better" from a Climate Change POV?
    Given that insulation is the purpose of the cladding, it's not likely that the cheaper cladding is a more efficient insulator than the more expensive cladding, is it?
    Only an architect or a QS could tell you that
    In the absence of one of those, common sense is some help. Why would anyone buy a more expensive insulator, if the cheaper one is better at insulating?

  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    edited June 2017
    nichomar said:

    glw said:

    nichomar said:

    So we've now devoured the mail and express and believe its climate change regolations and the EU to blame

    It's not the papers, it's in the documents about the project.

    So it's not about blaming such regulations, but it is true that the cladding is added in part to improve energy efficiency. In the old days when we didn't care about such stuff the building would probably have kept the existing facade.
    I actually thought the primary objective was to improve the visual appearance but i might be wrong
    The primary reason for the over-cladding was to reduce energy loss as was the replacement of the windows.
  • William_HWilliam_H Posts: 346

    JackW said:

    He seems to be made a spokesman for many things by the media but what qualifies him nobody has a clue.

    David Lammy MP

    The clue is at the end.
    Yeah, but on telly a lot, is what I'm saying. Is he Labour spokesman for something, or is it just Lammy loving the spotlight, as he has been accused of before? Politics being show business for ugly people, after all.
    In this case I think he's talking a lot because he knew one of the people who died
  • KentRisingKentRising Posts: 2,850
    William_H said:

    JackW said:

    He seems to be made a spokesman for many things by the media but what qualifies him nobody has a clue.

    David Lammy MP

    The clue is at the end.
    Yeah, but on telly a lot, is what I'm saying. Is he Labour spokesman for something, or is it just Lammy loving the spotlight, as he has been accused of before? Politics being show business for ugly people, after all.
    In this case I think he's talking a lot because he knew one of the people who died
    Fair enough.
  • LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    Everyone should consider, that if the PM falls over this, then MOB RULE wins.

  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    edited June 2017
    Sky interviewing someone to give a flavour of the anger. Guy is wearing a Corbyn sweatshirt with Corbyn written above the Nike logo and admits he's not a resident but has come to the area today from Tottenham.
    They also earlier featured the same outraged member if the public in two different locations.
    It's appallingly bad journalism.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    kyf_100 said:

    tlg86 said:

    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.

    Ghastly? Yours for £1712 per calendar month...

    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-59885887.html
    Crikey! So does that mean it was a mix of private and social tenants?

    It's interesting, because when you see tower blocks you assume they're not particularly special on the inside.
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    From 2015 when a hung Parliament seemed more likely !

    http://dev.mydup.com/images/uploads/publications/DUP_NI_Plan_v_7.pdf
  • LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    As a northerner, I despair when I watch these almost daily protests in London. Especially, as they are shown all over the world.

    London is not representative of this country.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Charles said:

    It's entirely explicable.

    The building regulations said it was ok. Why should the committee second guess the experts?

    £8 million reasons perhaps. Not so much a matter of second guessing but protecting the public purse especially given that the residents were raising red flags (as it were) years before.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,013
    An interesting weekend of choices ahead for Tory MPs:

    1. Leave May in place. Arlene Foster and various Tories find they have better places to be than back May. Labour force a confidence motion on Wednesday, the government falls
    2. Remove May. No time for a leadership election, so a quick coronation of yet another unelected PM. Enough factional fall-out from her fall to make people abstain, no deal for Arlene to back, the government falls

    OR

    3. Remove May. A coronation. Everyone pulls together to get the QS through. Government finds itself without a programme of government it can get through parliament or a version of Brexit that anyone supports. Government survives for now, but Brexit negotiations are swift and brutal - no deal
    4. Leave May in place. Scrapes through the QS, and she goes off to Brussels to again be given a brutally swift reality check from the EU. And we are left with a Zombie PM only there because her running from residents in Kensington is the least worst option facing Tory MPs

    Its going to be a fascinating weekend. There are going to be significant acres of coverage of Tory MPs saying this can't go on. If the Tories aren't unanimously backing May, the DUP won't rescue her. I think the QS is going ahead because the deal is dead.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    tlg86 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    tlg86 said:

    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.

    Ghastly? Yours for £1712 per calendar month...

    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-59885887.html
    Crikey! So does that mean it was a mix of private and social tenants?

    It's interesting, because when you see tower blocks you assume they're not particularly special on the inside.
    Location, location, location
  • spire2spire2 Posts: 183
    Isnt the problem that 60 hours into this nobody has taken responsibility? The afternoon after the manchester bombing his name was released and associates arrested. Same in the london bridge attack.

    Have any documents been seized from anybody concerned with this even as a precaution? There could be shredders working overtime and disks being wped with some incriminating evidence
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    He seems to be made a spokesman for many things by the media but what qualifies him nobody has a clue.

    David Lammy MP

    The clue is at the end.
    Yeah, but on telly a lot, is what I'm saying. Is he Labour spokesman for something, or is it just Lammy loving the spotlight, as he has been accused of before? Politics being show business for ugly people, after all.
    Whether the media decide to utilize Lammy is a matter for them. You may always swift off or change channel.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2017
    Needs a correction there, not middle class, upper middle and upper class twats, Tarquins and tabathas.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002

    An interesting weekend of choices ahead for Tory MPs:

    1. Leave May in place. Arlene Foster and various Tories find they have better places to be than back May. Labour force a confidence motion on Wednesday, the government falls
    2. Remove May. No time for a leadership election, so a quick coronation of yet another unelected PM. Enough factional fall-out from her fall to make people abstain, no deal for Arlene to back, the government falls

    OR

    3. Remove May. A coronation. Everyone pulls together to get the QS through. Government finds itself without a programme of government it can get through parliament or a version of Brexit that anyone supports. Government survives for now, but Brexit negotiations are swift and brutal - no deal
    4. Leave May in place. Scrapes through the QS, and she goes off to Brussels to again be given a brutally swift reality check from the EU. And we are left with a Zombie PM only there because her running from residents in Kensington is the least worst option facing Tory MPs

    Its going to be a fascinating weekend. There are going to be significant acres of coverage of Tory MPs saying this can't go on. If the Tories aren't unanimously backing May, the DUP won't rescue her. I think the QS is going ahead because the deal is dead.

    Nothing will happen by the party before the Queens Speech - as I said earlier the fascinating thing about the Queens Speech is how the votes in the HOC break at the end of the five days debate
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,009

    An interesting weekend of choices ahead for Tory MPs:

    1. Leave May in place. Arlene Foster and various Tories find they have better places to be than back May. Labour force a confidence motion on Wednesday, the government falls
    2. Remove May. No time for a leadership election, so a quick coronation of yet another unelected PM. Enough factional fall-out from her fall to make people abstain, no deal for Arlene to back, the government falls

    OR

    3. Remove May. A coronation. Everyone pulls together to get the QS through. Government finds itself without a programme of government it can get through parliament or a version of Brexit that anyone supports. Government survives for now, but Brexit negotiations are swift and brutal - no deal
    4. Leave May in place. Scrapes through the QS, and she goes off to Brussels to again be given a brutally swift reality check from the EU. And we are left with a Zombie PM only there because her running from residents in Kensington is the least worst option facing Tory MPs

    Its going to be a fascinating weekend. There are going to be significant acres of coverage of Tory MPs saying this can't go on. If the Tories aren't unanimously backing May, the DUP won't rescue her. I think the QS is going ahead because the deal is dead.

    Who'd have thought that today Theresa May would be looking back on her situation a week ago with fond nostalgia?
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 3,911
    tlg86 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    tlg86 said:

    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.

    Ghastly? Yours for £1712 per calendar month...

    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-59885887.html
    Crikey! So does that mean it was a mix of private and social tenants?

    It's interesting, because when you see tower blocks you assume they're not particularly special on the inside.
    I lived in one that looked almost identical to that, about a decade ago.

    My partner and I rented it from the owner, who had bought it under right to buy.

    This definitely wasn't unusual and I would assume a fair number of flats in the block were privately owned.

    I imagine a flat like that would sell for about 450,000 these days and mortgage companies can be funny about it, so they often go to private landlords who can afford to pay cash.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    spire2 said:

    Isnt the problem that 60 hours into this nobody has taken responsibility? The afternoon after the manchester bombing his name was released and associates arrested. Same in the london bridge attack.

    Have any documents been seized from anybody concerned with this even as a precaution? There could be shredders working overtime and disks being wped with some incriminating evidence

    How can you arrest anyone without evidence
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    tlg86 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    tlg86 said:

    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.

    Ghastly? Yours for £1712 per calendar month...

    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-59885887.html
    Crikey! So does that mean it was a mix of private and social tenants?

    It's interesting, because when you see tower blocks you assume they're not particularly special on the inside.
    I'm not sure "richer" or luxury appartments are completely safe tbh !
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    edited June 2017
    tlg86 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    tlg86 said:

    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.

    Ghastly? Yours for £1712 per calendar month...

    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-59885887.html
    Crikey! So does that mean it was a mix of private and social tenants?

    It's interesting, because when you see tower blocks you assume they're not particularly special on the inside.
    It is worth actually looking at who made the decisions to have these renovations.

    The building was controlled by the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation.

    Who are they?

    Well according to their website they are the 4,500 people who actually live in these council properties. Their board is made up of eight elected tenant and leaseholder members, four appointed Councillor members and three independent appointed other members. They are a non profit organisation and the board do not get paid for their work. Nor are they allowed to have any financial interest in any company that does work for them.

    This is not some company setting out to profit from the council tenants. This IS the council tenants, or at least their representatives.

    These are the people who decided to take over the running of their own homes so they could apply for grants to bring the properties up to the Decent Homes Standard.

    Someone has made a big mistake here. No one denies that. But to try and claim this is anything to do with inequality or a lack of care is simply wrong and is very, very dumb.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,013

    JackW said:

    He seems to be made a spokesman for many things by the media but what qualifies him nobody has a clue.

    David Lammy MP

    The clue is at the end.
    Yeah, but on telly a lot, is what I'm saying. Is he Labour spokesman for something, or is it just Lammy loving the spotlight, as he has been accused of before? Politics being show business for ugly people, after all.
    He is there because his friend died in the tower
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    tlg86 said:

    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.

    Ghastly? Yours for £1712 per calendar month...

    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-59885887.html
    Crikey! So does that mean it was a mix of private and social tenants?

    It's interesting, because when you see tower blocks you assume they're not particularly special on the inside.
    I'm not sure "richer" or luxury appartments are completely safe tbh !
    Probably not. But you can guarantee that people will (rightly or wrongly) make the calculation that it's all about the neighbours and that it couldn't happen to them.
  • nunununu Posts: 6,024
    isam said:

    tlg86 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    tlg86 said:

    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.

    Ghastly? Yours for £1712 per calendar month...

    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-59885887.html
    Crikey! So does that mean it was a mix of private and social tenants?

    It's interesting, because when you see tower blocks you assume they're not particularly special on the inside.
    Location, location, location
    Bloody hell, they reallyy do have their choice of tenants:
    - No DSS / Housing Benefit Applicants
    - No Students
    - No Pets, sorry
    - No Smokers
    - Not Suitable for Families / Children
    - Bills not included
    - No Parking Available
    - No Garden Access
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2017
    Mustafa Almansur: Who is the organiser of the Grenfell Tower protest movement?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/mustafa-almansur-organiser-grenfell-tower-protest-movement/

    Finsbury park mosque spokesman back in the day, associates with terrorists and of course a big corbyn fan.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited June 2017

    An interesting weekend of choices ahead for Tory MPs:

    1. Leave May in place. Arlene Foster and various Tories find they have better places to be than back May. Labour force a confidence motion on Wednesday, the government falls
    2. Remove May. No time for a leadership election, so a quick coronation of yet another unelected PM. Enough factional fall-out from her fall to make people abstain, no deal for Arlene to back, the government falls

    OR

    3. Remove May. A coronation. Everyone pulls together to get the QS through. Government finds itself without a programme of government it can get through parliament or a version of Brexit that anyone supports. Government survives for now, but Brexit negotiations are swift and brutal - no deal
    4. Leave May in place. Scrapes through the QS, and she goes off to Brussels to again be given a brutally swift reality check from the EU. And we are left with a Zombie PM only there because her running from residents in Kensington is the least worst option facing Tory MPs

    Its going to be a fascinating weekend. There are going to be significant acres of coverage of Tory MPs saying this can't go on. If the Tories aren't unanimously backing May, the DUP won't rescue her. I think the QS is going ahead because the deal is dead.

    Except the government will not fall on either option 1 or 2 unless Sinn Fein decides to vote with the LDs, Labour, SNP, Greens and Plaid against the government in which case the DUP will immediately fall in line behind the government as soon as they get wind of it.

    3. Brexit negotiations will go on for at least 2 years minimum, though of course there will be no swift deal

    4. Even if May stays she was the PM the public chose having won most votes and seats last week
  • sladeslade Posts: 1,921
    The media are having a bad day. I watched Ch4 news where a minister was asked 6 times whether all tower blocks in Britain were safe. The correct answer was 'you are a stupid idiot. I cannot guarantee that a drunk will fall asleep with a lighted cigarette in his hand, or an Islamic terrorist will plant a bomb in a stairwell, or there will be an earthquake in Stoke on Trent'. But no minister could say that.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002

    tlg86 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    tlg86 said:

    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.

    Ghastly? Yours for £1712 per calendar month...

    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-59885887.html
    Crikey! So does that mean it was a mix of private and social tenants?

    It's interesting, because when you see tower blocks you assume they're not particularly special on the inside.
    It is worth actually looking at who made the decisions to have these renovations.

    The building was controlled by the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation.

    Who are they?

    Well according to their website they are the 4,500 people who actually live in these council properties. Their board is made up of eight elected tenant and leaseholder members, four appointed Councillor members and three independent appointed other members. They are a non profit organisation and the board do not get paid for their work. Nor are they allowed to have any financial interest in any company that does work for them.

    This is not some company setting out to profit from the council tenants. This IS the council tenants, or at least their representatives.

    These are the people who decided to take over the running of their own homes so they could apply for grants to bring the properties up to the Decent Homes Standard.

    Someone has made a big mistake here. No one denies that. But to try and claim this is anything to do with inequality or a lack of care is simply wrong and is very, very dumb.
    So why do the BBC and Sky not report that. It is their duty to be balanced and not conduct a witch hunt as has been evidenced over the last few days
  • spire2spire2 Posts: 183
    Ok if not arrest have they been invited to assist enquiries?

    spire2 said:

    Isnt the problem that 60 hours into this nobody has taken responsibility? The afternoon after the manchester bombing his name was released and associates arrested. Same in the london bridge attack.

    Have any documents been seized from anybody concerned with this even as a precaution? There could be shredders working overtime and disks being wped with some incriminating evidence

    How can you arrest anyone without evidence
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    spire2 said:

    Isnt the problem that 60 hours into this nobody has taken responsibility? The afternoon after the manchester bombing his name was released and associates arrested. Same in the london bridge attack.

    Have any documents been seized from anybody concerned with this even as a precaution? There could be shredders working overtime and disks being wped with some incriminating evidence

    How can you arrest anyone without evidence
    Just find a dozen rich residents and string them up from lampposts.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    spire2 said:

    Isnt the problem that 60 hours into this nobody has taken responsibility? The afternoon after the manchester bombing his name was released and associates arrested. Same in the london bridge attack.

    Have any documents been seized from anybody concerned with this even as a precaution? There could be shredders working overtime and disks being wped with some incriminating evidence

    Whilst i go over the top on occasions i doubt if this is in conspirecy territory it really is about the speed and quality of resonse on which i feal they have bean found lacking
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900

    Mustafa Almansur: Who is the organiser of the Grenfell Tower protest movement?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/mustafa-almansur-organiser-grenfell-tower-protest-movement/

    Finsbury park mosque spokesman back in the day, associates with terrorists and of course a big corbyn fan.


    "He was subsequently released without charge and later claimed he had been detained because his fingerprints had been found on a book about Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs), which belonged to a belonging to a Bosnian associate."

    Happens to us all.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,730
    edited June 2017

    Mustafa Almansur: Who is the organiser of the Grenfell Tower protest movement?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/mustafa-almansur-organiser-grenfell-tower-protest-movement/

    Finsbury park mosque spokesman back in the day, associates with terrorists and of course a big corbyn fan.

    The kindest thing we can say of the non Corbynite, non hard left that are egging on the disruption for cheap political purposes is that they know not what they do.

    The SWP types know exactly what they're doing
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Andrew said:

    Mustafa Almansur: Who is the organiser of the Grenfell Tower protest movement?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/mustafa-almansur-organiser-grenfell-tower-protest-movement/

    Finsbury park mosque spokesman back in the day, associates with terrorists and of course a big corbyn fan.


    "He was subsequently released without charge and later claimed he had been detained because his fingerprints had been found on a book about Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs), which belonged to a belonging to a Bosnian associate."

    Happens to us all.
    Personally I borrow my copy from the local library.....
  • spire2spire2 Posts: 183
    I wasnt sugfesting a conspiracy and was trying to make that point that pople arent happy with response
    nichomar said:

    spire2 said:

    Isnt the problem that 60 hours into this nobody has taken responsibility? The afternoon after the manchester bombing his name was released and associates arrested. Same in the london bridge attack.

    Have any documents been seized from anybody concerned with this even as a precaution? There could be shredders working overtime and disks being wped with some incriminating evidence

    Whilst i go over the top on occasions i doubt if this is in conspirecy territory it really is about the speed and quality of resonse on which i feal they have bean found lacking
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    isam said:

    Mustafa Almansur: Who is the organiser of the Grenfell Tower protest movement?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/mustafa-almansur-organiser-grenfell-tower-protest-movement/

    Finsbury park mosque spokesman back in the day, associates with terrorists and of course a big corbyn fan.

    The kindest thing we can say of the non Corbynite, non hard left that are egging on the disruption for cheap political purposes is that they know not what they do.

    The SWP types know exactly what they're doing
    Until the SWP get 13.7 million on the streets to overtake the 13.6 million who voted Tory last week we can ignore them
  • HaroldOHaroldO Posts: 1,185
    spire2 said:

    Ok if not arrest have they been invited to assist enquiries?

    spire2 said:

    Isnt the problem that 60 hours into this nobody has taken responsibility? The afternoon after the manchester bombing his name was released and associates arrested. Same in the london bridge attack.

    Have any documents been seized from anybody concerned with this even as a precaution? There could be shredders working overtime and disks being wped with some incriminating evidence

    How can you arrest anyone without evidence
    Whom though? They need evidence first, to at least point them in the right direction. Right now anyone brought in for questioning is going to get lynched.
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Utter bollocks Mike as per usual from you, just because the party you support lost again!

    Theresa will be here in 5 years hope this site might have grown up by then!
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,996

    Mustafa Almansur: Who is the organiser of the Grenfell Tower protest movement?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/mustafa-almansur-organiser-grenfell-tower-protest-movement/

    Finsbury park mosque spokesman back in the day, associates with terrorists and of course a big corbyn fan.

    Yep, you have them bang to rights, just a load of troublemakers like those people who were seeking justice for Hillsborough and the Birmingham Six.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Pulpstar said:

    tlg86 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    tlg86 said:

    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.

    Ghastly? Yours for £1712 per calendar month...

    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-59885887.html
    Crikey! So does that mean it was a mix of private and social tenants?

    It's interesting, because when you see tower blocks you assume they're not particularly special on the inside.
    I'm not sure "richer" or luxury appartments are completely safe tbh !
    Aren't all new apartments described as 'luxury' ?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    tlg86 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    tlg86 said:

    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.

    Ghastly? Yours for £1712 per calendar month...

    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-59885887.html
    Crikey! So does that mean it was a mix of private and social tenants?

    It's interesting, because when you see tower blocks you assume they're not particularly special on the inside.
    It is worth actually looking at who made the decisions to have these renovations.

    The building was controlled by the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation.

    Who are they?

    Well according to their website they are the 4,500 people who actually live in these council properties. Their board is made up of eight elected tenant and leaseholder members, four appointed Councillor members and three independent appointed other members. They are a non profit organisation and the board do not get paid for their work. Nor are they allowed to have any financial interest in any company that does work for them.

    This is not some company setting out to profit from the council tenants. This IS the council tenants, or at least their representatives.

    These are the people who decided to take over the running of their own homes so they could apply for grants to bring the properties up to the Decent Homes Standard.

    Someone has made a big mistake here. No one denies that. But to try and claim this is anything to do with inequality or a lack of care is simply wrong and is very, very dumb.
    So why do the BBC and Sky not report that. It is their duty to be balanced and not conduct a witch hunt as has been evidenced over the last few days
    I have no idea. All the information is freely available on the KCTMO website. I guess the media find facts get in the way of a good story.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    What's the difference between a flat and an appartment?.....About £250k
  • saddosaddo Posts: 534
    The country looked like 40% had a mental breakdown last week voting quasi communist. The reaction post the fire confirms it. WTF are the media doing allowing the SWP a free hand in the demonstrations? Why are they not pointing them out? If the BNP were in the demo's guess what the lead news story would be?
  • EPGEPG Posts: 5,996
    Do you think smearing the demonstrators as a communist terrorist mob is part of the non-empathy story explaining why you guys are losing to, of all people, Jeremy Corbyn?
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    EPG said:

    Mustafa Almansur: Who is the organiser of the Grenfell Tower protest movement?

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/16/mustafa-almansur-organiser-grenfell-tower-protest-movement/

    Finsbury park mosque spokesman back in the day, associates with terrorists and of course a big corbyn fan.

    Yep, you have them bang to rights, just a load of troublemakers like those people who were seeking justice for Hillsborough and the Birmingham Six.
    TIC i hope
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    edited June 2017
    EPG said:

    Do you think smearing the demonstrators as a communist terrorist mob is part of the non-empathy story explaining why you guys are losing to, of all people, Jeremy Corbyn?

    Smearing? Chortle.

    Remind me of the votes/seats split of last week's election?
  • PhilPhil Posts: 1,919

    tlg86 said:

    kyf_100 said:

    tlg86 said:

    But why put something on the flats that could be hazardous? It smacks of politicians wanting to do something to make themselves feel better about those poor people who have to live in those ghastly flats.

    Ghastly? Yours for £1712 per calendar month...

    http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-to-rent/property-59885887.html
    Crikey! So does that mean it was a mix of private and social tenants?

    It's interesting, because when you see tower blocks you assume they're not particularly special on the inside.
    It is worth actually looking at who made the decisions to have these renovations.

    The building was controlled by the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation.

    Who are they?

    Well according to their website they are the 4,500 people who actually live in these council properties. Their board is made up of eight elected tenant and leaseholder members, four appointed Councillor members and three independent appointed other members. They are a non profit organisation and the board do not get paid for their work. Nor are they allowed to have any financial interest in any company that does work for them.

    This is not some company setting out to profit from the council tenants. This IS the council tenants, or at least their representatives.

    These are the people who decided to take over the running of their own homes so they could apply for grants to bring the properties up to the Decent Homes Standard.

    Someone has made a big mistake here. No one denies that. But to try and claim this is anything to do with inequality or a lack of care is simply wrong and is very, very dumb.
    So why do the BBC and Sky not report that. It is their duty to be balanced and not conduct a witch hunt as has been evidenced over the last few days
    I have no idea. All the information is freely available on the KCTMO website. I guess the media find facts get in the way of a good story.
    If the KCTMO is so wonderfully representative of their tenants, then why did the Grenfall Action Group even exist?
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928
    There is the stench of desperation on this thread.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    There is the stench of desperation on this thread.

    Indeed. Those who lost the election are trying to politicise a terrible tragedy. For shame.
This discussion has been closed.