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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This is why you should be laying Boris as next Tory leader/PM

SystemSystem Posts: 11,003
edited July 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This is why you should be laying Boris as next Tory leader/PM

Video: Boris Johnson being by Eddie Mair a few years ago, the interview did not go well for Boris.

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited July 2017
    1st - unlike Bumbling Boris :D:D
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,137
    2nd - like Labour.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210
    edited July 2017
    Third. Which is the best Boris can hope for.

    Boris has instinct, but no political judgement whatsoever.
  • Options
    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    FPT:
    welshowl said:

    It was never about the money though.

    Yes it was. The analysis of the Leave campaign was quite open about it.
    welshowl said:

    OK if the EU are determined to play silly buggers and adopt a negotiating style that seems to consist so far of "here are our terms, please surrender now"

    What the EU are doing is saying "You want to leave - OK. Here is a list of the outstanding commitments YOU agreed to whilst a member"

    What you appear to be saying WO, is the that the UK should not honour its debts
  • Options
    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    And on that note.... I must get back to BrexitProofing

    Byyyeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (for now)
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    The next Tory leader either needs to be a Brezit zealot like DD or JRM, of someone going for BINO such as Hammond. Another reluctant Leaver would just replicate the current mess.

    Kicking DD upstairs could put someone more administratively competent in charge at DEXEU.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914
    Theresa May could well be the best that the Conservative party has to offer. Let that sink in. And then weep for our country.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,241

    Theresa May could well be the best that the Conservative party has to offer. Let that sink in. And then weep for our country.

    Really weep if it's Corbyn
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    What the EU are doing is saying "You want to leave - OK. Here is a list of the outstanding commitments YOU agreed to whilst a member"

    What you appear to be saying WO, is the that the UK should not honour its debts

    The so-called 'outstanding debts' are completely ridiculous. It simply cannot be the case in any even vaguely sane world that it costs us 10 years' worth of full subscriptions to leave the club.

    The truth of the matter is almost certainly* that legally we'll owe precisely zero on exit day, in the absence of any agreement otherwise. The treaties fall away, and that's it. If our EU friends want us to make some chunky payments to cover the ensuing black hole in their budget, then they'll need to offer us a trade deal which makes it worthwhile for us to do so.

    * see: https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201617/ldselect/ldeucom/125/125.pdf
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,894
    If Corbyn gets in he may well achieve the end goal that alot of Brexiteers had in mind, namely to either have net emmigration, or very low immigration.
    That might make him very popular...
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Theresa May could well be the best that the Conservative party has to offer. Let that sink in. And then weep for our country.

    Really weep if it's Corbyn
    Corbyn is not so bad. He has grown on me rather well over the last few months.

    What he needs to do is to replicate his recent LOTO style of ideas and passion, and appoint underlings like McDonnell, Starmer and Milne to the apparatchik roles, as admin is not his strength.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,894

    What the EU are doing is saying "You want to leave - OK. Here is a list of the outstanding commitments YOU agreed to whilst a member"

    What you appear to be saying WO, is the that the UK should not honour its debts

    The so-called 'outstanding debts' are completely ridiculous. It simply cannot be the case in any even vaguely sane world that it costs us 10 years' worth of full subscriptions to leave the club.

    The truth of the matter is almost certainly* that legally we'll owe precisely zero on exit day, in the absence of any agreement otherwise. The treaties fall away, and that's it. If our EU friends want us to make some chunky payments to cover the ensuing black hole in their budget, then they'll need to offer us a trade deal which makes it worthwhile for us to do so.

    * see: https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201617/ldselect/ldeucom/125/125.pdf
    Would you consider voting to leave if there was a second ref ?
    The theoretical is crossing my mind, must admit.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Pulpstar said:

    If Corbyn gets in he may well achieve the end goal that alot of Brexiteers had in mind, namely to either have net emmigration, or very low immigration.
    That might make him very popular...

    Hmm, I suspect the exchange controls, shortages in the shops, strikes, and unemployment queues would rather overwhelm that.
  • Options
    FPT:

    nichomar said:

    There may have been a few who couched the advantages in terms similar to Casino, but for the most part Brexit was sold on abstractions like Sovereignity, Freedom and Independence.

    No voter can possibly have been unaware of the fact that Brexit was a huge eonomic risk, and would probably make them substantially poorer at least for some years and possibly much longer. That was one thing which was made 100% clear, not only by the government and the Remain campaign, but also by virtually all economic experts and authoritative bodies. A majority of voters decided to go ahead anyway, but no-one can claim they weren't warned.
    I'm afraid you give the electorate credit for having listened and analysed the issue which i think was not true. After years of conditioning by the press and the promise of a painless departure and £350 million for the NHS they thought it was a no brainer. Many people still don't understand why the asian family next door are still here as we voted out to get rid of them.
    I honestly do not get this idea that £350 million for the NHS was some sort of lie.

    Given that we (well, others - I abstained) were not voting for a government, the "for the NHS" tag was clearly a suggestion, not a promise by anyone, because a Leave vote would not put anybody into a position to implement it. It would just make it possible, if the government wanted to do that.

    And re the amount, well, yes, some of the £350 million comes back, so perhaps the net figure applies. But also perhaps not. Having rendered £350 million a week unto Brussels, it is the latter's decision where and how to spend that portion that comes back, not ours. So conceivably, one could choose to spend none of it in the manner the EU chooses, and instead route all of it to the NHS.

    Of all the arguments about how mendacious the Leave campaign was, this strikes me as among the weakest. It is like saying that Corbyn said in the election that he'd set up a National Care Service, but has not done so, and is thus a wicked liar.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Pulpstar said:

    Would you consider voting to leave if there was a second ref ?
    The theoretical is crossing my mind, must admit.

    I don't see what a second referendum would be about. The option of the status quo ante has gone, and there's no sign that the EU27 want to offer us some special new status. Even to reverse the exit would (probably) require unanimity amongst all 27 states and the European parliament, which seems a difficult stretch in practice.
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    Alice_AforethoughtAlice_Aforethought Posts: 772
    edited July 2017

    Pulpstar said:

    If Corbyn gets in he may well achieve the end goal that alot of Brexiteers had in mind, namely to either have net emmigration, or very low immigration.
    That might make him very popular...

    Hmm, I suspect the exchange controls, shortages in the shops, strikes, and unemployment queues would rather overwhelm that.
    Wrecking the economy would send the EU migrants back home sharpish. They're here because they can make better money here. When that stops they're gone.

    Similarly, there is no housing shortage, just too many well-paid people especially in the south-east. Wreck the economy and the City, and the house price problem goes away (though not for millennials because they'll be the ones getting sacked or told to pony up an even bigger deposit and thus still unable to buy).
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,241
    edited July 2017

    Theresa May could well be the best that the Conservative party has to offer. Let that sink in. And then weep for our country.

    Really weep if it's Corbyn
    Corbyn is not so bad. He has grown on me rather well over the last few months.

    What he needs to do is to replicate his recent LOTO style of ideas and passion, and appoint underlings like McDonnell, Starmer and Milne to the apparatchik roles, as admin is not his strength.
    His economic policies are madness and would cause serious harm to the economy in quick time. And that is before he finds the 100-200 billion he promised to cancel student debt and the 35-40 billion needed to cancel the public sector pay freeze which he forgot about.

    You should also read today's centre for policy studies report 'Abandoning Austerity is no solution'
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    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Pulpstar said:

    Would you consider voting to leave if there was a second ref ?
    The theoretical is crossing my mind, must admit.

    I don't see what a second referendum would be about. The option of the status quo ante has gone, and there's no sign that the EU27 want to offer us some special new status. Even to reverse the exit would (probably) require unanimity amongst all 27 states and the European parliament, which seems a difficult stretch in practice.
    I really don't see the point in even hypothetical discussions about a second referendum, it simply isn't going to happen.
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    Pulpstar said:

    Would you consider voting to leave if there was a second ref ?
    The theoretical is crossing my mind, must admit.

    I don't see what a second referendum would be about. The option of the status quo ante has gone, and there's no sign that the EU27 want to offer us some special new status. Even to reverse the exit would (probably) require unanimity amongst all 27 states and the European parliament, which seems a difficult stretch in practice.
    I didn't even know last time what a Remain vote meant. Remain in what?

    Since 1973 we've been in an EEC, an EC, and an EU, which has gone from having 7 to 27 members, and from veto to QMV. Is it all now going to freeze and not change further? If not, will it be possible to bale later?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,914

    What the EU are doing is saying "You want to leave - OK. Here is a list of the outstanding commitments YOU agreed to whilst a member"

    What you appear to be saying WO, is the that the UK should not honour its debts

    The so-called 'outstanding debts' are completely ridiculous. It simply cannot be the case in any even vaguely sane world that it costs us 10 years' worth of full subscriptions to leave the club.

    The truth of the matter is almost certainly* that legally we'll owe precisely zero on exit day, in the absence of any agreement otherwise. The treaties fall away, and that's it. If our EU friends want us to make some chunky payments to cover the ensuing black hole in their budget, then they'll need to offer us a trade deal which makes it worthwhile for us to do so.

    * see: https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201617/ldselect/ldeucom/125/125.pdf
    I'm afraid I don't agree. I suspect that if the EU took us to the International Court in the Hague, we would likely find ourselves on the hook for a share of the EU's pension liabilities. Just as if Scotland had left the UK, it would have taken on a share of the UK's pension liabilities. Just as the former Soviet Republics took on their share of pension liabilities of the USSR.

    I would note, of course, that this is only a very small portion of the total. Indeed, the sum would likely be smaller than the compensation we would be due for our share of the EIB. But it is a mistake to assume that the EU is not due some monies from us.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    Wrecking the economy would send the EU migrants back home sharpish. They're here because they can make better money here.

    Similarly, there is no housing shortage, just too many well-paid people especially in the south-east. Wreck the economy and the City, and the house price problem goes away (though not for millennials because they'll be the ones getting sacked or told to pony up an even bigger deposit and thus still unable to buy).

    A house-price crash would be worst for the JAMs with mortgages, plunged into negative equity, or bankrupted if they lose their jobs as well. The wealthy and retired, with no debt, could ride it out.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,241

    Wrecking the economy would send the EU migrants back home sharpish. They're here because they can make better money here.

    Similarly, there is no housing shortage, just too many well-paid people especially in the south-east. Wreck the economy and the City, and the house price problem goes away (though not for millennials because they'll be the ones getting sacked or told to pony up an even bigger deposit and thus still unable to buy).

    A house-price crash would be worst for the JAMs with mortgages, plunged into negative equity, or bankrupted if they lose their jobs as well. The wealthy and retired, with no debt, could ride it out.
    And benefit from much higher savings rates
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,303
    Boris Johnson is, perhaps, the chocolate soldier of the chocolate orange government.

    "Boris’s Falstaffian coming-of-age moment is overdue."
    Falstaff never 'came of age' (that would be Prince Hal) - and like him, Johnson is likely to remain a bragging Bufflehead.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Theresa May could well be the best that the Conservative party has to offer. Let that sink in. And then weep for our country.

    Really weep if it's Corbyn
    Corbyn is not so bad. He has grown on me rather well over the last few months.

    What he needs to do is to replicate his recent LOTO style of ideas and passion, and appoint underlings like McDonnell, Starmer and Milne to the apparatchik roles, as admin is not his strength.
    His economic policies are madness and would cause serious harm to the economy in quick time. And that is before he finds the 100-200 billion he promised to cancel student debt and the 35-40 billion needed to cancel the public sector pay freeze which he forgot about.

    You should also read today's centre for policy studies report 'Abandoning Austerity is no solution'
    Economic madness reigns in the land, but Corbyn's tastes better.

    A good dose of inflation is what indebted Britain requires to clear its debts, reduce the real price of housing etc. It is either that or default.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,303
    rcs1000 said:

    What the EU are doing is saying "You want to leave - OK. Here is a list of the outstanding commitments YOU agreed to whilst a member"

    What you appear to be saying WO, is the that the UK should not honour its debts

    The so-called 'outstanding debts' are completely ridiculous. It simply cannot be the case in any even vaguely sane world that it costs us 10 years' worth of full subscriptions to leave the club.

    The truth of the matter is almost certainly* that legally we'll owe precisely zero on exit day, in the absence of any agreement otherwise. The treaties fall away, and that's it. If our EU friends want us to make some chunky payments to cover the ensuing black hole in their budget, then they'll need to offer us a trade deal which makes it worthwhile for us to do so.

    * see: https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201617/ldselect/ldeucom/125/125.pdf
    I'm afraid I don't agree. I suspect that if the EU took us to the International Court in the Hague, we would likely find ourselves on the hook for a share of the EU's pension liabilities. Just as if Scotland had left the UK, it would have taken on a share of the UK's pension liabilities. Just as the former Soviet Republics took on their share of pension liabilities of the USSR.

    I would note, of course, that this is only a very small portion of the total. Indeed, the sum would likely be smaller than the compensation we would be due for our share of the EIB. But it is a mistake to assume that the EU is not due some monies from us.
    Then why on earth do we not accept the principle and start seriously haggling about the amounts.

    Instead of whistling out of our backsides.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    rcs1000 said:

    I'm afraid I don't agree. I suspect that if the EU took us to the International Court in the Hague, we would likely find ourselves on the hook for a share of the EU's pension liabilities. Just as if Scotland had left the UK, it would have taken on a share of the UK's pension liabilities. Just as the former Soviet Republics took on their share of pension liabilities of the USSR.

    I would note, of course, that this is only a very small portion of the total. Indeed, the sum would likely be smaller than the compensation we would be due for our share of the EIB. But it is a mistake to assume that the EU is not due some monies from us.

    Well, as you say the pension liabilities are small anyway, but I don't think we'd be liable in any event. The reason is very simple: the EU (according not least to itself) is a legal entity in its own right, with its own assets and liabilities.

    What's more, if we were subject to a share of the liabilities, then by the same reasoning we'd be entitled to the same share of the assets. Unless the EU is bankrupt, that must be a net positive number in our favour.

    And finally, the EU cannot take us to the International Court in the Hague, because it's not a signatory (this comes back, again, to the legal entity argument). It would have to be the EU27 countries - but they've signed a treaty saying that the ECJ is the only court with jurisdiction over EU matters, and we'd no longer be subject to that.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210

    The next Tory leader either needs to be a Brezit zealot like DD or JRM, of someone going for BINO such as Hammond. Another reluctant Leaver would just replicate the current mess.

    Kicking DD upstairs could put someone more administratively competent in charge at DEXEU.

    But who is this mysterious 'someone'?

    Gummer was said to be being lined up for the job, before he lost his seat.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,914
    A few years ago I was in Japan, at a very posh ski resort called Hakuba. By the side of the slopes were some very nice Alpine cabins owned by the Tokyo jet set. On the eve of the Nagano Olympics in 1998, these cabins of perhaps 1,400 square feet changed hands for $5m. They can now be bought for just $500,000. Small differences in supply and demand can make big differences to price.

    Another example: Hong Kong. There's very limited space, it's an international city, there's substantial net migration and very large numbers of both Chinese and foreigners want to live there. Between 1997 and 2003, prices fell 70%.

    I mention these things because there is good reason to think that UK - and particularly London - house prices will come down a long way.

    And that'll be good for people in their late 20s and early 30s who haven't bought homes. And it'll be absolutely awful for those who are mortgaged up to their eyeballs. They would never forgive the government.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,241

    Theresa May could well be the best that the Conservative party has to offer. Let that sink in. And then weep for our country.

    Really weep if it's Corbyn
    Corbyn is not so bad. He has grown on me rather well over the last few months.

    What he needs to do is to replicate his recent LOTO style of ideas and passion, and appoint underlings like McDonnell, Starmer and Milne to the apparatchik roles, as admin is not his strength.
    His economic policies are madness and would cause serious harm to the economy in quick time. And that is before he finds the 100-200 billion he promised to cancel student debt and the 35-40 billion needed to cancel the public sector pay freeze which he forgot about.

    You should also read today's centre for policy studies report 'Abandoning Austerity is no solution'
    Economic madness reigns in the land, but Corbyn's tastes better.

    A good dose of inflation is what indebted Britain requires to clear its debts, reduce the real price of housing etc. It is either that or default.
    Inflation equals higher interest rates, higher mortgages, falling house prices and repossessions. In my earlier working life I witnessed many repossessions and it is just horrible.

    And you have ignored Corbyns student fee fiasco and public sector pay rises
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141

    Pulpstar said:

    Would you consider voting to leave if there was a second ref ?
    The theoretical is crossing my mind, must admit.

    I don't see what a second referendum would be about. The option of the status quo ante has gone, and there's no sign that the EU27 want to offer us some special new status. Even to reverse the exit would (probably) require unanimity amongst all 27 states and the European parliament, which seems a difficult stretch in practice.
    Unanimity is a high hurdle but Brexit screws citizens and businesses from all member states as well as costing everybody money. If the British actively decided they wanted to stay (as opposed to wanting to delay the inevitable) it's hard to see it being blocked in practice.

    The real hurdles to this are firstly that the voters have to substantially change their minds, which hasn't happened yet, and secondly it has to suit the British Prime Minister, who only really seems to be interested in internal party politics.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,303

    Theresa May could well be the best that the Conservative party has to offer. Let that sink in. And then weep for our country.

    Really weep if it's Corbyn
    Corbyn is not so bad. He has grown on me rather well over the last few months.

    What he needs to do is to replicate his recent LOTO style of ideas and passion, and appoint underlings like McDonnell, Starmer and Milne to the apparatchik roles, as admin is not his strength.
    His economic policies are madness and would cause serious harm to the economy in quick time. And that is before he finds the 100-200 billion he promised to cancel student debt and the 35-40 billion needed to cancel the public sector pay freeze which he forgot about.

    You should also read today's centre for policy studies report 'Abandoning Austerity is no solution'
    Economic madness reigns in the land, but Corbyn's tastes better.

    A good dose of inflation is what indebted Britain requires to clear its debts, reduce the real price of housing etc. It is either that or default.
    The Tories' economic madness is Brexit; Labour's is Brexit PLUS Corbyn.

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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210
    edited July 2017

    Theresa May could well be the best that the Conservative party has to offer. Let that sink in. And then weep for our country.

    Really weep if it's Corbyn
    Corbyn is not so bad. He has grown on me rather well over the last few months.

    What he needs to do is to replicate his recent LOTO style of ideas and passion, and appoint underlings like McDonnell, Starmer and Milne to the apparatchik roles, as admin is not his strength.
    His economic policies are madness and would cause serious harm to the economy in quick time. And that is before he finds the 100-200 billion he promised to cancel student debt and the 35-40 billion needed to cancel the public sector pay freeze which he forgot about.

    You should also read today's centre for policy studies report 'Abandoning Austerity is no solution'
    Economic madness reigns in the land, but Corbyn's tastes better.

    A good dose of inflation is what indebted Britain requires to clear its debts, reduce the real price of housing etc. It is either that or default.
    Inflation equals higher interest rates, higher mortgages, falling house prices and repossessions. In my earlier working life I witnessed many repossessions and it is just horrible.

    And you have ignored Corbyns student fee fiasco and public sector pay rises
    What will happen is that inflation will rise well ahead of interest rates. As fox says, it's a solution to the debt crisis, not without its downsides (sustained negative real interest rates being another unprecedented economic experiment), but less painful than all the others. First law of politics, they always go for what appears to be the least painful option (Brexit excepted).
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    Wrecking the economy would send the EU migrants back home sharpish. They're here because they can make better money here.

    Similarly, there is no housing shortage, just too many well-paid people especially in the south-east. Wreck the economy and the City, and the house price problem goes away (though not for millennials because they'll be the ones getting sacked or told to pony up an even bigger deposit and thus still unable to buy).

    A house-price crash would be worst for the JAMs with mortgages, plunged into negative equity, or bankrupted if they lose their jobs as well. The wealthy and retired, with no debt, could ride it out.
    Those people have got houses, so they're rich, so Corbyn hates them anyway, so no problem.
  • Options
    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    Theresa May could well be the best that the Conservative party has to offer. Let that sink in. And then weep for our country.

    Really weep if it's Corbyn
    Corbyn is not so bad. He has grown on me rather well over the last few months.

    What he needs to do is to replicate his recent LOTO style of ideas and passion, and appoint underlings like McDonnell, Starmer and Milne to the apparatchik roles, as admin is not his strength.
    His economic policies are madness and would cause serious harm to the economy in quick time. And that is before he finds the 100-200 billion he promised to cancel student debt and the 35-40 billion needed to cancel the public sector pay freeze which he forgot about.

    You should also read today's centre for policy studies report 'Abandoning Austerity is no solution'
    Economic madness reigns in the land, but Corbyn's tastes better.

    A good dose of inflation is what indebted Britain requires to clear its debts, reduce the real price of housing etc. It is either that or default.
    Inflation equals higher interest rates, higher mortgages, falling house prices and repossessions. In my earlier working life I witnessed many repossessions and it is just horrible.

    And you have ignored Corbyns student fee fiasco and public sector pay rises
    Foxy not bothered,he can always apply his trade abroad.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,241
    IanB2 said:

    Theresa May could well be the best that the Conservative party has to offer. Let that sink in. And then weep for our country.

    Really weep if it's Corbyn
    Corbyn is not so bad. He has grown on me rather well over the last few months.

    What he needs to do is to replicate his recent LOTO style of ideas and passion, and appoint underlings like McDonnell, Starmer and Milne to the apparatchik roles, as admin is not his strength.
    His economic policies are madness and would cause serious harm to the economy in quick time. And that is before he finds the 100-200 billion he promised to cancel student debt and the 35-40 billion needed to cancel the public sector pay freeze which he forgot about.

    You should also read today's centre for policy studies report 'Abandoning Austerity is no solution'
    Economic madness reigns in the land, but Corbyn's tastes better.

    A good dose of inflation is what indebted Britain requires to clear its debts, reduce the real price of housing etc. It is either that or default.
    Inflation equals higher interest rates, higher mortgages, falling house prices and repossessions. In my earlier working life I witnessed many repossessions and it is just horrible.

    And you have ignored Corbyns student fee fiasco and public sector pay rises
    What will happen is that inflation will rise well ahead of interest rates. As fox says, it's a solution to the debt crisis, not without its downsides (sustained negative real interest rates being another unprecedented economic experiment), but less painful than all the others. First law of politics, they always go for what appears to be the least painful option (Brexit excepted).
    As the pound tanks the interest rate rises will be almost immediate under Corbyn
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,914

    rcs1000 said:

    I'm afraid I don't agree. I suspect that if the EU took us to the International Court in the Hague, we would likely find ourselves on the hook for a share of the EU's pension liabilities. Just as if Scotland had left the UK, it would have taken on a share of the UK's pension liabilities. Just as the former Soviet Republics took on their share of pension liabilities of the USSR.

    I would note, of course, that this is only a very small portion of the total. Indeed, the sum would likely be smaller than the compensation we would be due for our share of the EIB. But it is a mistake to assume that the EU is not due some monies from us.

    Well, as you say the pension liabilities are small anyway, but I don't think we'd be liable in any event. The reason is very simple: the EU (according not least to itself) is a legal entity in its own right, with its own assets and liabilities.

    What's more, if we were subject to a share of the liabilities, then by the same reasoning we'd be entitled to the same share of the assets. Unless the EU is bankrupt, that must be a net positive number in our favour.

    And finally, the EU cannot take us to the International Court in the Hague, because it's not a signatory (this comes back, again, to the legal entity argument). It would have to be the EU27 countries - but they've signed a treaty saying that the ECJ is the only court with jurisdiction over EU matters, and we'd no longer be subject to that.
    I find the first argument unconvincing. Why? Because Scotland would be liable for its share of the UK's liabilities if it seceded. And yes, we are due a share of the EU's assets - something acknowledged in a number of the EU negotiating papers.
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    stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    The Tories should look to an outsider on the backbenches or in the junior ranks for their next leader. Never has the electorate been presented with a more dire clutch of politicians than they will be potentially be forced to choose from at the next election. The Truly dreadful Corbyn (and I write as a non Blairite Labour supporter), possibly Hammond Johnson or Davies, and the ever baleful has been Cable.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,137

    Wrecking the economy would send the EU migrants back home sharpish. They're here because they can make better money here.

    Similarly, there is no housing shortage, just too many well-paid people especially in the south-east. Wreck the economy and the City, and the house price problem goes away (though not for millennials because they'll be the ones getting sacked or told to pony up an even bigger deposit and thus still unable to buy).

    A house-price crash would be worst for the JAMs with mortgages, plunged into negative equity, or bankrupted if they lose their jobs as well. The wealthy and retired, with no debt, could ride it out.
    Those people have got houses, so they're rich, so Corbyn hates them anyway, so no problem.
    He's certainly got his eye on their gardens.
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    TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,694



    The so-called 'outstanding debts' are completely ridiculous. It simply cannot be the case in any even vaguely sane world that it costs us 10 years' worth of full subscriptions to leave the club.

    The truth of the matter is almost certainly* that legally we'll owe precisely zero on exit day, in the absence of any agreement otherwise. The treaties fall away, and that's it. If our EU friends want us to make some chunky payments to cover the ensuing black hole in their budget, then they'll need to offer us a trade deal which makes it worthwhile for us to do so.

    * see: https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201617/ldselect/ldeucom/125/125.pdf

    I quite like the parallels drawn to Brexit, none of which are true:

    "It's a divorce" - no it's not. What other marriage involves 28 people? And usually in a divorce, the financially weaker person gets a payoff from the stronger.

    "Leave the club but still want access to the bar" - Again, it's not. Quite a few clubs do offer (more expensive) access to the bar, and also charge day rates for people who just want a round of golf once in a while. Plus, what club, as well as forgoing the rest of that years subs, demand anywhere between 3 and 10 years FULL subs before they accept your resignation?

    Let's call it what it is. A modern state leaving an economic and political union, in which this state has already so integrated its own economy and political make up, that leaving it is going to cause years and years of economic uncertainty and political turmoil.

    It's NEVER been attempted before, and I suspect it never will again (unless it turns out to be a roaring success). It also doesn't help that the EU set the rules in such a way as to basically try and prevent anyone leaving. Doesn't really smack of being a very good union if you can't get out.

    I'm not, by the way, suggesting we shouldn't do it.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,894

    Pulpstar said:

    If Corbyn gets in he may well achieve the end goal that alot of Brexiteers had in mind, namely to either have net emmigration, or very low immigration.
    That might make him very popular...

    Hmm, I suspect the exchange controls, shortages in the shops, strikes, and unemployment queues would rather overwhelm that.
    Wrecking the economy would send the EU migrants back home sharpish. They're here because they can make better money here. When that stops they're gone.

    Similarly, there is no housing shortage, just too many well-paid people especially in the south-east. Wreck the economy and the City, and the house price problem goes away (though not for millennials because they'll be the ones getting sacked or told to pony up an even bigger deposit and thus still unable to buy).
    The mean wage-multiples are the highest in London and the SouthEast (Particularly London), so its not entirely wage driven.
    Luton still seems affordable down there. https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/dvc401update/map.html?initialWidth=700&childId=cea-49b4-8ac1-28a89adb16cb#
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141
    rcs1000 said:

    And yes, we are due a share of the EU's assets - something acknowledged in a number of the EU negotiating papers.

    The British should demand the EU Parliament building in Strasbourg, everyone will vote to give it to them except the French.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210



    The so-called 'outstanding debts' are completely ridiculous. It simply cannot be the case in any even vaguely sane world that it costs us 10 years' worth of full subscriptions to leave the club.

    The truth of the matter is almost certainly* that legally we'll owe precisely zero on exit day, in the absence of any agreement otherwise. The treaties fall away, and that's it. If our EU friends want us to make some chunky payments to cover the ensuing black hole in their budget, then they'll need to offer us a trade deal which makes it worthwhile for us to do so.

    * see: https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201617/ldselect/ldeucom/125/125.pdf

    I quite like the parallels drawn to Brexit, none of which are true:

    "It's a divorce" - no it's not. What other marriage involves 28 people? And usually in a divorce, the financially weaker person gets a payoff from the stronger.

    "Leave the club but still want access to the bar" - Again, it's not. Quite a few clubs do offer (more expensive) access to the bar, and also charge day rates for people who just want a round of golf once in a while. Plus, what club, as well as forgoing the rest of that years subs, demand anywhere between 3 and 10 years FULL subs before they accept your resignation?

    Let's call it what it is. A modern state leaving an economic and political union, in which this state has already so integrated its own economy and political make up, that leaving it is going to cause years and years of economic uncertainty and political turmoil.

    It's NEVER been attempted before, and I suspect it never will again (unless it turns out to be a roaring success). It also doesn't help that the EU set the rules in such a way as to basically try and prevent anyone leaving. Doesn't really smack of being a very good union if you can't get out.

    I'm not, by the way, suggesting we shouldn't do it.
    Denying the logic of your own argument isn't a good look?
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    chrisbchrisb Posts: 101
    rcs1000 said:

    What the EU are doing is saying "You want to leave - OK. Here is a list of the outstanding commitments YOU agreed to whilst a member"

    What you appear to be saying WO, is the that the UK should not honour its debts

    The so-called 'outstanding debts' are completely ridiculous. It simply cannot be the case in any even vaguely sane world that it costs us 10 years' worth of full subscriptions to leave the club.

    The truth of the matter is almost certainly* that legally we'll owe precisely zero on exit day, in the absence of any agreement otherwise. The treaties fall away, and that's it. If our EU friends want us to make some chunky payments to cover the ensuing black hole in their budget, then they'll need to offer us a trade deal which makes it worthwhile for us to do so.

    * see: https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201617/ldselect/ldeucom/125/125.pdf
    I'm afraid I don't agree. I suspect that if the EU took us to the International Court in the Hague, we would likely find ourselves on the hook for a share of the EU's pension liabilities. Just as if Scotland had left the UK, it would have taken on a share of the UK's pension liabilities. Just as the former Soviet Republics took on their share of pension liabilities of the USSR.

    I would note, of course, that this is only a very small portion of the total. Indeed, the sum would likely be smaller than the compensation we would be due for our share of the EIB. But it is a mistake to assume that the EU is not due some monies from us.
    I'm not sure the USSR example is a valid comparison. The USSR ceased to exist when its member states (including Russia) seceded from it. That's not the case with the EU, it will continue in existence post-Brexit.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210

    IanB2 said:

    Theresa May could well be the best that the Conservative party has to offer. Let that sink in. And then weep for our country.

    Really weep if it's Corbyn
    Corbyn is not so bad. He has grown on me rather well over the last few months.

    What he needs to do is to replicate his recent LOTO style of ideas and passion, and appoint underlings like McDonnell, Starmer and Milne to the apparatchik roles, as admin is not his strength.
    His economic policies are madness and would cause serious harm to the economy in quick time. And that is before he finds the 100-200 billion he promised to cancel student debt and the 35-40 billion needed to cancel the public sector pay freeze which he forgot about.

    You should also read today's centre for policy studies report 'Abandoning Austerity is no solution'
    Economic madness reigns in the land, but Corbyn's tastes better.

    A good dose of inflation is what indebted Britain requires to clear its debts, reduce the real price of housing etc. It is either that or default.
    Inflation equals higher interest rates, higher mortgages, falling house prices and repossessions. In my earlier working life I witnessed many repossessions and it is just horrible.

    And you have ignored Corbyns student fee fiasco and public sector pay rises
    What will happen is that inflation will rise well ahead of interest rates. As fox says, it's a solution to the debt crisis, not without its downsides (sustained negative real interest rates being another unprecedented economic experiment), but less painful than all the others. First law of politics, they always go for what appears to be the least painful option (Brexit excepted).
    As the pound tanks the interest rate rises will be almost immediate under Corbyn
    Anyone who has been abroad recently already knows that we have devalued our country already.
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    Bob__SykesBob__Sykes Posts: 1,176
    Had a quick skim through the EU Withdrawal Bill. Seems sensible to me, even if the drafting leaves a lot to be desired in places. Basically seems to give Ministers/devolved bodies as appropriate the power to do anything necessary to fill in the holes caused by incorporating EU law into UK law without the relevant institutions being in place, and seems to suggest the hard work of sorting out what we keep, amend, ditch has to be done within 2 years of exiting the EU. But otherwise, seems to do the job from a first read. We've had pro-EU lawyers telling us for the past year that this Bill will be impossible to draft - at least now something has been presented.

    "Devil in the detail" of course being the major caveat to everything i've just said...
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,001
    chrisb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What the EU are doing is saying "You want to leave - OK. Here is a list of the outstanding commitments YOU agreed to whilst a member"

    What you appear to be saying WO, is the that the UK should not honour its debts

    The so-called 'outstanding debts' are completely ridiculous. It simply cannot be the case in any even vaguely sane world that it costs us 10 years' worth of full subscriptions to leave the club.

    The truth of the matter is almost certainly* that legally we'll owe precisely zero on exit day, in the absence of any agreement otherwise. The treaties fall away, and that's it. If our EU friends want us to make some chunky payments to cover the ensuing black hole in their budget, then they'll need to offer us a trade deal which makes it worthwhile for us to do so.

    * see: https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201617/ldselect/ldeucom/125/125.pdf
    I'm afraid I don't agree. I suspect that if the EU took us to the International Court in the Hague, we would likely find ourselves on the hook for a share of the EU's pension liabilities. Just as if Scotland had left the UK, it would have taken on a share of the UK's pension liabilities. Just as the former Soviet Republics took on their share of pension liabilities of the USSR.

    I would note, of course, that this is only a very small portion of the total. Indeed, the sum would likely be smaller than the compensation we would be due for our share of the EIB. But it is a mistake to assume that the EU is not due some monies from us.
    I'm not sure the USSR example is a valid comparison. The USSR ceased to exist when its member states (including Russia) seceded from it. That's not the case with the EU, it will continue in existence post-Brexit.
    It's remarkable how we no longer hear that there won't be an EU left to leave by the time the Article 50 process runs out. Perhaps that was the only plan, if you can call it that, that would have worked.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,241
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Theresa May could well be the best that the Conservative party has to offer. Let that sink in. And then weep for our country.

    Really weep if it's Corbyn
    Corbyn is not so bad. He has grown on me rather well over the last few months.

    What he needs to do is to replicate his recent LOTO style of ideas and passion, and appoint underlings like McDonnell, Starmer and Milne to the apparatchik roles, as admin is not his strength.
    His economic policies are madness and would cause serious harm to the economy in quick time. And that is before he finds the 100-200 billion he promised to cancel student debt and the 35-40 billion needed to cancel the public sector pay freeze which he forgot about.

    You should also read today's centre for policy studies report 'Abandoning Austerity is no solution'
    Economic madness reigns in the land, but Corbyn's tastes better.

    A good dose of inflation is what indebted Britain requires to clear its debts, reduce the real price of housing etc. It is either that or default.
    Inflation equals higher interest rates, higher mortgages, falling house prices and repossessions. In my earlier working life I witnessed many repossessions and it is just horrible.

    And you have ignored Corbyns student fee fiasco and public sector pay rises
    What will happen is that inflation will rise well ahead of interest rates. As fox says, it's a solution to the debt crisis, not without its downsides (sustained negative real interest rates being another unprecedented economic experiment), but less painful than all the others. First law of politics, they always go for what appears to be the least painful option (Brexit excepted).
    As the pound tanks the interest rate rises will be almost immediate under Corbyn
    Anyone who has been abroad recently already knows that we have devalued our country already.
    I have been to Canada in May and am going on a cruise to the Western Med in October. My exchange rate in May was quite good but expect the euro to be near par in Oct. That is no doubt why the MPC are considering rate rises
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,914
    chrisb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    What the EU are doing is saying "You want to leave - OK. Here is a list of the outstanding commitments YOU agreed to whilst a member"

    What you appear to be saying WO, is the that the UK should not honour its debts

    The so-called 'outstanding debts' are completely ridiculous. It simply cannot be the case in any even vaguely sane world that it costs us 10 years' worth of full subscriptions to leave the club.

    The truth of the matter is almost certainly* that legally we'll owe precisely zero on exit day, in the absence of any agreement otherwise. The treaties fall away, and that's it. If our EU friends want us to make some chunky payments to cover the ensuing black hole in their budget, then they'll need to offer us a trade deal which makes it worthwhile for us to do so.

    * see: https://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201617/ldselect/ldeucom/125/125.pdf
    I'm afraid I don't agree. I suspect that if the EU took us to the International Court in the Hague, we would likely find ourselves on the hook for a share of the EU's pension liabilities. Just as if Scotland had left the UK, it would have taken on a share of the UK's pension liabilities. Just as the former Soviet Republics took on their share of pension liabilities of the USSR.

    I would note, of course, that this is only a very small portion of the total. Indeed, the sum would likely be smaller than the compensation we would be due for our share of the EIB. But it is a mistake to assume that the EU is not due some monies from us.
    I'm not sure the USSR example is a valid comparison. The USSR ceased to exist when its member states (including Russia) seceded from it. That's not the case with the EU, it will continue in existence post-Brexit.
    OK. If Scotland seceded from the UK, would it be responsible for any of the UK government's liabilities?
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    rcs1000 said:

    I find the first argument unconvincing. Why? Because Scotland would be liable for its share of the UK's liabilities if it seceded. And yes, we are due a share of the EU's assets - something acknowledged in a number of the EU negotiating papers.

    There's no exact parallel, but for example I don't believe that countries leaving the British Empire suddenly found themselves liable for a chunk of the British national debt.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210

    rcs1000 said:

    I find the first argument unconvincing. Why? Because Scotland would be liable for its share of the UK's liabilities if it seceded. And yes, we are due a share of the EU's assets - something acknowledged in a number of the EU negotiating papers.

    There's no exact parallel, but for example I don't believe that countries leaving the British Empire suddenly found themselves liable for a chunk of the British national debt.
    Being a liberated colony is rather different.

    It was very clear Scotland would have to do so had IndyRef gone yes.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,241
    Anyway Tennis semi on live now BBC 1
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Theresa May could well be the best that the Conservative party has to offer. Let that sink in. And then weep for our country.

    Really weep if it's Corbyn
    Corbyn is not so bad. He has grown on me rather well over the last few months.

    What he needs to do is to replicate his recent LOTO style of ideas and passion, and appoint underlings like McDonnell, Starmer and Milne to the apparatchik roles, as admin is not his strength.
    His economic policies are madness and would cause serious harm to the economy in quick time. And that is before he finds the 100-200 billion he promised to cancel student debt and the 35-40 billion needed to cancel the public sector pay freeze which he forgot about.

    You should also read today's centre for policy studies report 'Abandoning Austerity is no solution'
    Economic madness reigns in the land, but Corbyn's tastes better.

    A good dose of inflation is what indebted Britain requires to clear its debts, reduce the real price of housing etc. It is either that or default.
    Inflation equals higher interest rates, higher mortgages, falling house prices and repossessions. In my earlier working life I witnessed many repossessions and it is just horrible.

    And you have ignored Corbyns student fee fiasco and public sector pay rises
    If the BoE is brought back under control of the Chancellor, or even set a target of 5% inflation rather than 2, the interest rate rises would be modest (though devaluation likely). Rising interest rates would restore some sanity to our economy, by encouraging saving over debt fuelled consumption.

    For most of my life (and for most of Britains post war prosperity) inflation was in the 5-10% range, as were interest rates. Inflation is the way to write down debts without default, though carries other baggage.

    Writing off (or at least writing down) student debt is going to happen, either now or in 30 years, the only question is how much misery to inflict first by usorious debts for our childern that end the year bigger than they start despite repayments.

    Fox jr will be accummulating £200 per month interest added to his account from this September.

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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Theresa May could well be the best that the Conservative party has to offer. Let that sink in. And then weep for our country.

    Really weep if it's Corbyn
    Corbyn is not so bad. He has grown on me rather well over the last few months.

    What he needs to do is to replicate his recent LOTO style of ideas and passion, and appoint underlings like McDonnell, Starmer and Milne to the apparatchik roles, as admin is not his strength.
    His economic policies are madness and would cause serious harm to the economy in quick time. And that is before he finds the 100-200 billion he promised to cancel student debt and the 35-40 billion needed to cancel the public sector pay freeze which he forgot about.

    You should also read today's centre for policy studies report 'Abandoning Austerity is no solution'
    Economic madness reigns in the land, but Corbyn's tastes better.

    A good dose of inflation is what indebted Britain requires to clear its debts, reduce the real price of housing etc. It is either that or default.
    Inflation equals higher interest rates, higher mortgages, falling house prices and repossessions. In my earlier working life I witnessed many repossessions and it is just horrible.

    And you have ignored Corbyns student fee fiasco and public sector pay rises
    What will happen is that inflation will rise well ahead of interest rates. As fox says, it's a solution to the debt crisis, not without its downsides (sustained negative real interest rates being another unprecedented economic experiment), but less painful than all the others. First law of politics, they always go for what appears to be the least painful option (Brexit excepted).
    As the pound tanks the interest rate rises will be almost immediate under Corbyn
    Anyone who has been abroad recently already knows that we have devalued our country already.
    I have been to Canada in May and am going on a cruise to the Western Med in October. My exchange rate in May was quite good but expect the euro to be near par in Oct. That is no doubt why the MPC are considering rate rises
    I rather suspect it is because inflation is rising and people are getting increasingly exposed to debt, mortgage debt, credit card debt, car loan debt, etc.
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    rcs1000 said:

    A few years ago I was in Japan, at a very posh ski resort called Hakuba. By the side of the slopes were some very nice Alpine cabins owned by the Tokyo jet set. On the eve of the Nagano Olympics in 1998, these cabins of perhaps 1,400 square feet changed hands for $5m. They can now be bought for just $500,000. Small differences in supply and demand can make big differences to price.

    Another example: Hong Kong. There's very limited space, it's an international city, there's substantial net migration and very large numbers of both Chinese and foreigners want to live there. Between 1997 and 2003, prices fell 70%.

    I mention these things because there is good reason to think that UK - and particularly London - house prices will come down a long way.

    And that'll be good for people in their late 20s and early 30s who haven't bought homes. And it'll be absolutely awful for those who are mortgaged up to their eyeballs. They would never forgive the government.

    Well, good unless as a consequence they can't.

    In house price crashes several things happen that all make buying cheap houses harder (for some people) than before.

    1/ Nobody knows when the crash is over until a few years afterwards, so buyers don't want to buy in case prices worsen, and discretionary sellers don't want to sell in case prices improve. So the amount of stock falls, and so do transactions. In 1990, a two-bedroom flat in Little Venice that was £150k in 1988 could be had for £120k. Except it couldn't, because there were none for sale. Ask me how I know.

    2/ Next, mortgage lenders want bigger deposits because a 10% deposit and 10% annual depreciation turns a 90% mortgage into a 100% mortgage (and after 2 years into a 110% mortgage). They also curb the salary multiples they'll consider, for the same reason.

    3/ The ability to amass such deposits falls, however, because equity has been eroded among existing owners. Among FTBs and non-owners the problem is that their rent goes up. If you can avoid a £10k loss by paying £9k more rent, that's what you do.

    4/ We saw all the above in 1988 to 1996. An extra bit of spice this time is that if house prices halved, and volumes halved as well, stamp duty would have to quadruple. That can only mean higher levels further down, so see 3/. Alternatively borrowing or some other tax would have to go up.

    The above is without considering the implications of higher rates should those be a factor in triggering this conjectural crash.

    If crashes were good and benign things they'd be called something like puppies, or unicorns, or something.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I honestly do not get this idea that £350 million for the NHS was some sort of lie.

    Given that we (well, others - I abstained) were not voting for a government, the "for the NHS" tag was clearly a suggestion, not a promise by anyone, because a Leave vote would not put anybody into a position to implement it. It would just make it possible, if the government wanted to do that.

    And re the amount, well, yes, some of the £350 million comes back, so perhaps the net figure applies. But also perhaps not. Having rendered £350 million a week unto Brussels, it is the latter's decision where and how to spend that portion that comes back, not ours. So conceivably, one could choose to spend none of it in the manner the EU chooses, and instead route all of it to the NHS.

    Of all the arguments about how mendacious the Leave campaign was, this strikes me as among the weakest. It is like saying that Corbyn said in the election that he'd set up a National Care Service, but has not done so, and is thus a wicked liar.

    The figure was a lie. We don't send £350m. We never did.

    The "give it to the NHS instead" was a lie. Whatever the number, it will never be spent exclusively on the NHS

    It's not the same as Corbyn. Corbyn said things would happen if people voted for his plan. They did not vote for his plan. Boris said things would happen if people voted for his plan. They did vote that way. Boris deserves all the criticism he gets
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,914

    rcs1000 said:

    I find the first argument unconvincing. Why? Because Scotland would be liable for its share of the UK's liabilities if it seceded. And yes, we are due a share of the EU's assets - something acknowledged in a number of the EU negotiating papers.

    There's no exact parallel, but for example I don't believe that countries leaving the British Empire suddenly found themselves liable for a chunk of the British national debt.
    I'm not talking about debt*, I'm specifically talking about pension liabilities. If Scotland left the UK, I believe that they would take over a portion of British pension liabilities and the same principle applies here.

    * Of which the EU has relatively little
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited July 2017
    IanB2 said:

    Being a liberated colony is rather different.

    It was very clear Scotland would have to do so had IndyRef gone yes.

    Yes of course, because it would have been by agreement with the UK. Naturally as part of that we'd have insisted on them taking on debt.

    This is different. there is little net EU debt to speak of, and we are leaving according the Article 50 provisions. These simply say that the treaties cease to apply on Brexit date. End of story, in the absence of any agreement otherwise. If those drafting Article 50 had wanted to include some guff about liabilities, they could have done so. They didn't.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210
    edited July 2017

    Had a quick skim through the EU Withdrawal Bill. Seems sensible to me, even if the drafting leaves a lot to be desired in places. Basically seems to give Ministers/devolved bodies as appropriate the power to do anything necessary to fill in the holes caused by incorporating EU law into UK law without the relevant institutions being in place, and seems to suggest the hard work of sorting out what we keep, amend, ditch has to be done within 2 years of exiting the EU. But otherwise, seems to do the job from a first read. We've had pro-EU lawyers telling us for the past year that this Bill will be impossible to draft - at least now something has been presented.

    "Devil in the detail" of course being the major caveat to everything i've just said...

    The biggest issue AIUI is that EU law refers frequently to the EU-level regulatory bodies that give effect to all the various regulations. Incorporating the law into Uk law is the easy bit; the difficult bit is recreating the domestic institutional framework to make it all work?
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210

    IanB2 said:

    Being a liberated colony is rather different.

    It was very clear Scotland would have to do so had IndyRef gone yes.

    Yes of course, because it would have been by agreement with the UK. naturally as part of that we'd have insisted on them taking on debt.

    This is different. there is little net EU debt to speak of, and we are leaving according the Article 50 provisions. These simply say that the treaties cease to apply on Brexit date. End of story, in the absence of any agreement otherwise. If those drafting Article 50 had wanted to include some guff about liabilities, they could have done so. They didn't.
    You seem to overlook that, in the main, our position in the negotiation is doing the asking, not the giving.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I find the first argument unconvincing. Why? Because Scotland would be liable for its share of the UK's liabilities if it seceded. And yes, we are due a share of the EU's assets - something acknowledged in a number of the EU negotiating papers.

    There's no exact parallel, but for example I don't believe that countries leaving the British Empire suddenly found themselves liable for a chunk of the British national debt.
    I'm not talking about debt*, I'm specifically talking about pension liabilities. If Scotland left the UK, I believe that they would take over a portion of British pension liabilities and the same principle applies here.

    * Of which the EU has relatively little
    The case for pension liabilties specifically is particularly weak. The employer was the EU, which is a legal entity in its own right. It wasn't the EU acting as agents for us.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,879
    Off-topic:

    I've just been reading a couple of books, and it's staggering to think that the electron was discovered only 120 years ago, the atomic nucleus 106, and the neutron 85.

    We've come a long way since then, but the 1900-1950 period must have seen one of the biggest rates of change in science and engineering ever. Probably society as well.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I find the first argument unconvincing. Why? Because Scotland would be liable for its share of the UK's liabilities if it seceded. And yes, we are due a share of the EU's assets - something acknowledged in a number of the EU negotiating papers.

    There's no exact parallel, but for example I don't believe that countries leaving the British Empire suddenly found themselves liable for a chunk of the British national debt.
    I'm not talking about debt*, I'm specifically talking about pension liabilities. If Scotland left the UK, I believe that they would take over a portion of British pension liabilities and the same principle applies here.

    * Of which the EU has relatively little
    The case for pension liabilties specifically is particularly weak. The employer was the EU, which is a legal entity in its own right. It wasn't the EU acting as agents for us.
    Even bodies separating from local councils and taking a chunk of staff with them (for example services contracting out under TUPE regulations) have to take on their share of the accumulated pension liability.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Oh, and the other very strong argument for a zero exit fee is that there has never been an accession bonus or fee in respect of pre-existing EU liabilities or assets. They can't have it both ways!
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Mr. Jessop, and electricity coming into common supply. If Tesla hadn't invented a way to convert AC to DC and back again easily, we'd have either a power station on every other street corner or only the wealthy would have electricity.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I find the first argument unconvincing. Why? Because Scotland would be liable for its share of the UK's liabilities if it seceded. And yes, we are due a share of the EU's assets - something acknowledged in a number of the EU negotiating papers.

    There's no exact parallel, but for example I don't believe that countries leaving the British Empire suddenly found themselves liable for a chunk of the British national debt.
    I'm not talking about debt*, I'm specifically talking about pension liabilities. If Scotland left the UK, I believe that they would take over a portion of British pension liabilities and the same principle applies here.

    * Of which the EU has relatively little
    The case for pension liabilties specifically is particularly weak. The employer was the EU, which is a legal entity in its own right. It wasn't the EU acting as agents for us.
    Even bodies separating from local councils and taking a chunk of staff with them (for example services contracting out under TUPE regulations) have to take on their share of the accumulated pension liability.
    We're not taking the staff with us.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210

    Off-topic:

    I've just been reading a couple of books, and it's staggering to think that the electron was discovered only 120 years ago, the atomic nucleus 106, and the neutron 85.

    We've come a long way since then, but the 1900-1950 period must have seen one of the biggest rates of change in science and engineering ever. Probably society as well.

    The internet and mobile telephony - essentially the story of the 90s and early 00s - must be another candidate. Speak to children and they simply cannot imagine the world we grew up in, without either of these.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,001
    Merkel and Macron have announced a project to create a next generation European fighter jet that would replace the existing Rafales and Eurofighters.

    Will BAE find themselves out in the cold?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I find the first argument unconvincing. Why? Because Scotland would be liable for its share of the UK's liabilities if it seceded. And yes, we are due a share of the EU's assets - something acknowledged in a number of the EU negotiating papers.

    There's no exact parallel, but for example I don't believe that countries leaving the British Empire suddenly found themselves liable for a chunk of the British national debt.
    I'm not talking about debt*, I'm specifically talking about pension liabilities. If Scotland left the UK, I believe that they would take over a portion of British pension liabilities and the same principle applies here.

    * Of which the EU has relatively little
    The case for pension liabilties specifically is particularly weak. The employer was the EU, which is a legal entity in its own right. It wasn't the EU acting as agents for us.
    Even bodies separating from local councils and taking a chunk of staff with them (for example services contracting out under TUPE regulations) have to take on their share of the accumulated pension liability.
    We're not taking the staff with us.
    The future of our quota of employees working for EU bodies is one of the issues.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Being a liberated colony is rather different.

    It was very clear Scotland would have to do so had IndyRef gone yes.

    Yes of course, because it would have been by agreement with the UK. naturally as part of that we'd have insisted on them taking on debt.

    This is different. there is little net EU debt to speak of, and we are leaving according the Article 50 provisions. These simply say that the treaties cease to apply on Brexit date. End of story, in the absence of any agreement otherwise. If those drafting Article 50 had wanted to include some guff about liabilities, they could have done so. They didn't.
    You seem to overlook that, in the main, our position in the negotiation is doing the asking, not the giving.
    I don't overlook that at all, it's the key point. We want a trade deal, they want our dosh (and would quite like a trade deal too, although less urgently than we do). If they don't give us a trade deal, why would we pay them anything?
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    TheValiantTheValiant Posts: 1,694
    IanB2 said:


    Denying the logic of your own argument isn't a good look?

    More people voted to LEAVE than REMAIN. I'm a democrat above everything else. The United Kingdom has to leave the EU.

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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    That is a very, very good piece. The Falstaff analogy is genius, but he gets the detail wrong. He has Boris down as Henry V, but I think Boris is Falstaff and the "Falstaff moment" results in his complete destruction and removal from the plot.

    I had my own "lay Boris" moment yesterday after the Barnier gag "I am not hearing any whistling, just the clock ticking" - a clever but annoying child being slapped down by a much cleverer, bored adult, or the "big, clunking fist" which Blair hoped Brown would deploy against Cameron.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,001

    IanB2 said:


    Denying the logic of your own argument isn't a good look?

    More people voted to LEAVE than REMAIN. I'm a democrat above everything else. The United Kingdom has to leave the EU.
    By far the easiest way to do that is to dissolve the United Kingdom.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    rcs1000 said:

    A few years ago I was in Japan, at a very posh ski resort called Hakuba. By the side of the slopes were some very nice Alpine cabins owned by the Tokyo jet set. On the eve of the Nagano Olympics in 1998, these cabins of perhaps 1,400 square feet changed hands for $5m. They can now be bought for just $500,000. Small differences in supply and demand can make big differences to price.

    Another example: Hong Kong.
    And that'll be good for people in their late 20s and early 30s who haven't bought homes. And it'll be absolutely awful for those who are mortgaged up to their eyeballs. They would never forgive the government.

    Well, good unless as a consequence they can't.

    In house price crashes several things happen that all make buying cheap houses harder (for some people) than before.

    1/ Nobody knows when the crash is over until a few years afterwards, so buyers don't want to buy in case prices worsen, and discretionary sellers don't want to sell in case prices improve. So the amount of stock falls, and so do transactions. In 1990, a two-bedroom flat in Little Venice that was £150k in 1988 could be had for £120k. Except it couldn't, because there were none for sale. Ask me how I know.

    2/ Next, mortgage lenders want bigger deposits because a 10% deposit and 10% annual depreciation turns a 90% mortgage into a 100% mortgage (and after 2 years into a 110% mortgage). They also curb the salary multiples they'll consider, for the same reason.

    3/ The ability to amass such deposits falls, however, because equity has been eroded among existing owners. Among FTBs and non-owners the problem is that their rent goes up. If you can avoid a £10k loss by paying £9k more rent, that's what you do.

    4/ We saw all the above in 1988 to 1996. An extra bit of spice this time is that if house prices halved, and volumes halved as well, stamp duty would have to quadruple. That can only mean higher levels further down, so see 3/. Alternatively borrowing or some other tax would have to go up.

    The above is without considering the implications of higher rates should those be a factor in triggering this conjectural crash.

    If crashes were good and benign things they'd be called something like puppies, or unicorns, or something.
    I had all those problems when buying my first house as a junior Dooctor in 1992. A 2 bed terrace was all that I could afford, because of difficulty raising deposit and high interest rates. Even that strained my finances substantially.

    I sold it in 96, for what I paid, but the house that I bought in '96 doubled in price in 5 years.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, the next Conservative leader is going to need to be able to lead, rather than simply embody the default prejudices of the average Conservative. By that test, Boris Johnson looks the most suited to the role, for all his many flaws.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210

    rcs1000 said:

    A few years ago I was in Japan, at a very posh ski resort called Hakuba. By the side of the slopes were some very nice Alpine cabins owned by the Tokyo jet set. On the eve of the Nagano Olympics in 1998, these cabins of perhaps 1,400 square feet changed hands for $5m. They can now be bought for just $500,000. Small differences in supply and demand can make big differences to price.

    Chinese and foreigners want to live there. Between 1997 and 2003, prices fell 70%.

    I mention these things because there is good reason to think that UK - and particularly London - house prices will come down a long way.

    And that'll be good for people in their late 20s and early 30s who haven't bought homes. And it'll be absolutely awful for those who are mortgaged up to their eyeballs. They would never forgive the government.

    Well, good unless as a consequence they can't.

    In house price crashes several things happen that all make buying cheap houses harder (for some people) than before.

    1/ Nobody knows when the crash is over until a few years afterwards, so buyers don't want to buy in case prices worsen, and discretionary sellers don't want to sell in case prices improve. So the amount of stock falls, and so do transactions. In 1990, a two-bedroom flat in Little Venice that was £150k in 1988 could be had for £120k. Except it couldn't, because there were none for sale. Ask me how I know.

    2/ Next, mortgage lenders want bigger deposits because a 10% deposit and 10% annual depreciation turns a 90% mortgage into a 100% mortgage (and after 2 years into a 110% mortgage). They also curb the salary multiples they'll consider, for the same reason.

    3/ The ability to amass such deposits falls, however, because equity has been eroded among existing owners. Among FTBs and non-owners the problem is that their rent goes up. If you can avoid a £10k loss by paying £9k more rent, that's what you do.

    4/ We saw all the above in 1988 to 1996. An extra bit of spice this time is that if house prices halved, and volumes halved as well, stamp duty would have to quadruple. That can only mean higher levels further down, so see 3/. Alternatively borrowing or some other tax would have to go up.

    The above is without considering the implications of higher rates should those be a factor in triggering this conjectural crash.

    If crashes were good and benign things they'd be called something like puppies, or unicorns, or something.
    House price crashes are extremely painful, as you say. Nevertheless if you look around post-2008, those places that had them early (which is most of them), such as the US, Ireland, Spain, are in a better place as far as capital valuations are concerned than are we with our Osborne-extended bubble.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,905

    Theresa May could well be the best that the Conservative party has to offer. Let that sink in. And then weep for our country.

    Really weep if it's Corbyn
    Corbyn is not so bad. He has grown on me rather well over the last few months.

    What he needs to do is to replicate his recent LOTO style of ideas and passion, and appoint underlings like McDonnell, Starmer and Milne to the apparatchik roles, as admin is not his strength.
    His economic policies are madness and would cause serious harm to the economy in quick time. And that is before he finds the 100-200 billion he promised to cancel student debt and the 35-40 billion needed to cancel the public sector pay freeze which he forgot about.

    You should also read today's centre for policy studies report 'Abandoning Austerity is no solution'
    That report is very shoddy.
    When comparing public and private sector pay they don't control for the fact that there are different levels of qualifications needed between the the two.
    When looking at the impact of austerity on growth they start the clock at 2010 and seem to exclude countries with a budget deficit less than 5%?

    They say Ireland has averaged 6% growth since 2010... I suppose that is based on the highly dubious 26% growth recorded in 2015...
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210

    On topic, the next Conservative leader is going to need to be able to lead, rather than simply embody the default prejudices of the average Conservative. By that test, Boris Johnson looks the most suited to the role, for all his many flaws.

    Having an instinct for public opinion and trying to chase it around is not the same as leadership.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,914

    IanB2 said:

    Being a liberated colony is rather different.

    It was very clear Scotland would have to do so had IndyRef gone yes.

    Yes of course, because it would have been by agreement with the UK. Naturally as part of that we'd have insisted on them taking on debt.

    This is different. there is little net EU debt to speak of, and we are leaving according the Article 50 provisions. These simply say that the treaties cease to apply on Brexit date. End of story, in the absence of any agreement otherwise. If those drafting Article 50 had wanted to include some guff about liabilities, they could have done so. They didn't.

    I agree. The issue is not about legality, it's about whether we want good ongoing institutional, trading, security etc relationships with the EU27. If we do, we will find a workable solution to this issue. If we don't, we won't. My guess is that the EU will find other ways to get the money it is looking for, while a cliff-edge Brexit will scare the pants off all inward investors into the UK as well as just about every financial institution you can think of. I would argue that £100 billion is well worth paying to avoid that (and as the OBR says today we have the ability to ride that sum if it is forked out), but politically it has become a totemic issue and so the likelihood is that we will decide to inflict severe, long-term, self-harm on ourselves rather than back down. As you have observed, the EU will not get away without some damage - but the risk profile is very one-sided.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,879

    Merkel and Macron have announced a project to create a next generation European fighter jet that would replace the existing Rafales and Eurofighters.

    Will BAE find themselves out in the cold?

    The question will be if such a venture goes the way of the EF (where France bailed), or the A400M, where they did not.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210

    IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Being a liberated colony is rather different.

    It was very clear Scotland would have to do so had IndyRef gone yes.

    Yes of course, because it would have been by agreement with the UK. naturally as part of that we'd have insisted on them taking on debt.

    This is different. there is little net EU debt to speak of, and we are leaving according the Article 50 provisions. These simply say that the treaties cease to apply on Brexit date. End of story, in the absence of any agreement otherwise. If those drafting Article 50 had wanted to include some guff about liabilities, they could have done so. They didn't.
    You seem to overlook that, in the main, our position in the negotiation is doing the asking, not the giving.
    I don't overlook that at all, it's the key point. We want a trade deal, they want our dosh (and would quite like a trade deal too, although less urgently than we do). If they don't give us a trade deal, why would we pay them anything?
    Absolutely, the payment is pretty much the only leverage we have. Against so many things we want or need - including a substantial delay once the government faces up to the impossibility of the A50 timescale.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,917
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    I find the first argument unconvincing. Why? Because Scotland would be liable for its share of the UK's liabilities if it seceded. And yes, we are due a share of the EU's assets - something acknowledged in a number of the EU negotiating papers.

    There's no exact parallel, but for example I don't believe that countries leaving the British Empire suddenly found themselves liable for a chunk of the British national debt.
    I'm not talking about debt*, I'm specifically talking about pension liabilities. If Scotland left the UK, I believe that they would take over a portion of British pension liabilities and the same principle applies here.

    * Of which the EU has relatively little
    They would take over the liabilities of those staff they took with them.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,210

    IanB2 said:


    Denying the logic of your own argument isn't a good look?

    More people voted to LEAVE than REMAIN. I'm a democrat above everything else. The United Kingdom has to leave the EU.

    Rejecting the final deal and opting to remain, provided it is ratified by another vote, is perfectly democratic. Democracy requires that whatever is done is confirmed by a popular vote, not that a mistake has to be followed through come what may.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,914

    Merkel and Macron have announced a project to create a next generation European fighter jet that would replace the existing Rafales and Eurofighters.

    Will BAE find themselves out in the cold?

    The future is drones. There's an Anglo-Dutch startup* which is working on a fighter drone that is more maneuverable, faster, doesn't have to worry about pulling Gs, can refuel itself in mid-air, and can loiter for days at a time. It also doesn't need all the stuff to keep the pilot alive, so it's smaller and stealthier than a traditional plane.

    The Eurofighter, the F35, etc., are all white elephants who won't stand a chance against the next generation of drones.

    * I say start-up, but they've raised billions
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,688
    edited July 2017

    On topic, the next Conservative leader is going to need to be able to lead, rather than simply embody the default prejudices of the average Conservative. By that test, Boris Johnson looks the most suited to the role, for all his many flaws.

    Going through the project stages: (1) unbridled enthusiasm; (2) mounting concern; (3) outright panic; (4) hunt for the guilty; (5) punishment of the innocent; (6) promotion of the uninvolved. On that basis Boris Johnson is too involved to be next leader and someone who is in a department that has relatively little to do with Brexit should be considered and who has stuck pretty much to the oscillating party line on Brexit. I am going for Sajid Javid*, who has had a good press for his competence on the Grenfell Tower incident.

    * Another possibility is Jeremy Hunt but he has some baggage and may not be seen as a "safe pair of hands"
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,001
    rcs1000 said:

    Merkel and Macron have announced a project to create a next generation European fighter jet that would replace the existing Rafales and Eurofighters.

    Will BAE find themselves out in the cold?

    The future is drones. There's an Anglo-Dutch startup* which is working on a fighter drone that is more maneuverable, faster, doesn't have to worry about pulling Gs, can refuel itself in mid-air, and can loiter for days at a time. It also doesn't need all the stuff to keep the pilot alive, so it's smaller and stealthier than a traditional plane.

    The Eurofighter, the F35, etc., are all white elephants who won't stand a chance against the next generation of drones.

    * I say start-up, but they've raised billions
    They also mentioned Eurodrones. Rumours that I'm an early model are entirely false.
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    PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    edited July 2017
    I suspect Germany is not the partner BAE would look for, if they are guided by the A400M experience.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    FF43 said:

    On topic, the next Conservative leader is going to need to be able to lead, rather than simply embody the default prejudices of the average Conservative. By that test, Boris Johnson looks the most suited to the role, for all his many flaws.

    Going through the project stages: (1) unbridled enthusiasm; (2) mounting concern; (3) outright panic; (4) hunt for the guilty; (5) punishment of the innocent; (6) promotion of the uninvolved. On that basis Boris Johnson is too involved to be next leader and someone who is in a department that has relatively little to do with Brexit should be considered and who has stuck pretty much to the oscillating party line on Brexit. I am going for Sajid Javid, who has had a good press for his competence on the Grenfell Tower incident.
    We are currently at stage 2, heading to stage 3.

    Bojo will be toast at stage 4, but Jezza will be the winner at stage 6...

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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,241

    FF43 said:

    On topic, the next Conservative leader is going to need to be able to lead, rather than simply embody the default prejudices of the average Conservative. By that test, Boris Johnson looks the most suited to the role, for all his many flaws.

    Going through the project stages: (1) unbridled enthusiasm; (2) mounting concern; (3) outright panic; (4) hunt for the guilty; (5) punishment of the innocent; (6) promotion of the uninvolved. On that basis Boris Johnson is too involved to be next leader and someone who is in a department that has relatively little to do with Brexit should be considered and who has stuck pretty much to the oscillating party line on Brexit. I am going for Sajid Javid, who has had a good press for his competence on the Grenfell Tower incident.
    We are currently at stage 2, heading to stage 3.

    Bojo will be toast at stage 4, but Jezza will be the winner at stage 6...

    Jezza will not win
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    eekeek Posts: 24,927
    edited July 2017
    IanB2 said:


    House price crashes are extremely painful, as you say. Nevertheless if you look around post-2008, those places that had them early (which is most of them), such as the US, Ireland, Spain, are in a better place as far as capital valuations are concerned than are we with our Osborne-extended bubble.

    When Brown said there would be no more boom and bust he forgot that busts are inevitable so its better to have them little and often rather than occasionally and blooming massive...
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,879
    rcs1000 said:

    Merkel and Macron have announced a project to create a next generation European fighter jet that would replace the existing Rafales and Eurofighters.

    Will BAE find themselves out in the cold?

    The future is drones. There's an Anglo-Dutch startup* which is working on a fighter drone that is more maneuverable, faster, doesn't have to worry about pulling Gs, can refuel itself in mid-air, and can loiter for days at a time. It also doesn't need all the stuff to keep the pilot alive, so it's smaller and stealthier than a traditional plane.

    The Eurofighter, the F35, etc., are all white elephants who won't stand a chance against the next generation of drones.

    * I say start-up, but they've raised billions
    May I remind you of Duncan Sandys, who sixty years ago said we could do without manned aircraft and the future was missiles?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957_Defence_White_Paper

    That ended well, didn't it? ;)
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,917

    rcs1000 said:

    Merkel and Macron have announced a project to create a next generation European fighter jet that would replace the existing Rafales and Eurofighters.

    Will BAE find themselves out in the cold?

    The future is drones. There's an Anglo-Dutch startup* which is working on a fighter drone that is more maneuverable, faster, doesn't have to worry about pulling Gs, can refuel itself in mid-air, and can loiter for days at a time. It also doesn't need all the stuff to keep the pilot alive, so it's smaller and stealthier than a traditional plane.

    The Eurofighter, the F35, etc., are all white elephants who won't stand a chance against the next generation of drones.

    * I say start-up, but they've raised billions
    They also mentioned Eurodrones. Rumours that I'm an early model are entirely false.
    LOL. That is a fine and welcome line of self deprecation. Nicely done Mr Glenn.
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    Alice_AforethoughtAlice_Aforethought Posts: 772
    edited July 2017

    Theresa May could well be the best that the Conservative party has to offer. Let that sink in. And then weep for our country.

    Really weep if it's Corbyn
    Corbyn is not so bad. He has grown on me rather well over the last few months.
    You should also read today's centre for policy studies report 'Abandoning Austerity is no solution'
    Economic madness reigns in the land, but Corbyn's tastes better.

    A good dose of inflation is what indebted Britain requires to clear its debts, reduce the real price of housing etc. It is either that or default.
    If the BoE is brought back under control of the Chancellor, or even set a target of 5% inflation rather than 2, the interest rate rises would be modest (though devaluation likely). Rising interest rates would restore some sanity to our economy, by encouraging saving over debt fuelled consumption.

    For most of my life (and for most of Britains post war prosperity) inflation was in the 5-10% range, as were interest rates. Inflation is the way to write down debts without default, though carries other baggage.

    Writing off (or at least writing down) student debt is going to happen, either now or in 30 years, the only question is how much misery to inflict first by usorious debts for our childern that end the year bigger than they start despite repayments.

    Fox jr will be accummulating £200 per month interest added to his account from this September.

    FWIW, base rates have in fact only been above 10% in 19 of the last 323 years, all 19 of which were between 1973 and 1991.

    The idea that a base rate of 10%+ is a norm to which we are sure one day to revert is a frequently-heard one, but is completely unfounded. It was those 18 years that were themselves the aberration.

    The mode rate since 1694 has been around 4%, with typical mortgage rates maybe a point or two above that, not that mortgages were typical until the 20th century. So today's mortgage rates, while low, aren't that low. They're not as low as people who think 12 or 15% is normal imagine, for example.

    What was worst about the 1973-1991 era was not just the absolute level that rates got to, but the volatility. Rates went from 5% in October 1977 to 14% by February 1979 and 17% by November 1977; from 7.375% in May 1988 to 14.875% in October 1989. Essentially, rates could triple within 16 to 18 months, and did so several times. In era in which fixed-rate mortgage products didn't exist, this had a lot to do with low property prices (sexist taxation of wives didn't help either).
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    PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    "Young People in the UK Commit Suicide at Much Higher Rates During Exam Season" all the more reason to stop the exam culture in universities - seriously, for the vast majority of undergraduate courses, what employer cares.
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited July 2017

    rcs1000 said:

    I find the first argument unconvincing. Why? Because Scotland would be liable for its share of the UK's liabilities if it seceded. And yes, we are due a share of the EU's assets - something acknowledged in a number of the EU negotiating papers.

    There's no exact parallel, but for example I don't believe that countries leaving the British Empire suddenly found themselves liable for a chunk of the British national debt.
    Maybe that is because we had already extracted our "Danegeld". Some of them want some of their stuff back

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/india-sues-the-queen-for-return-of-stolen-100m-koh-i-noor-diamond-a6725951.html
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    Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,799
    edited July 2017

    rcs1000 said:

    Merkel and Macron have announced a project to create a next generation European fighter jet that would replace the existing Rafales and Eurofighters.

    Will BAE find themselves out in the cold?

    The future is drones. There's an Anglo-Dutch startup* which is working on a fighter drone that is more maneuverable, faster, doesn't have to worry about pulling Gs, can refuel itself in mid-air, and can loiter for days at a time. It also doesn't need all the stuff to keep the pilot alive, so it's smaller and stealthier than a traditional plane.

    The Eurofighter, the F35, etc., are all white elephants who won't stand a chance against the next generation of drones.

    * I say start-up, but they've raised billions
    May I remind you of Duncan Sandys, who sixty years ago said we could do without manned aircraft and the future was missiles?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1957_Defence_White_Paper

    That ended well, didn't it? ;)
    It's the HS2 is useless because we'll all be working in VR offices argument. By all means watch Tomorrow's World when putting your infrastructure project together, but don't rely on it.

    You'll get many more White Elephants going down that route than if you remain substantially grounded in a nearer future based on current trends.
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    Scott_P said:

    I honestly do not get this idea that £350 million for the NHS was some sort of lie.

    Given that we (well, others - I abstained) were not voting for a government, the "for the NHS" tag was clearly a suggestion, not a promise by anyone, because a Leave vote would not put anybody into a position to implement it. It would just make it possible, if the government wanted to do that.

    And re the amount, well, yes, some of the £350 million comes back, so perhaps the net figure applies. But also perhaps not. Having rendered £350 million a week unto Brussels, it is the latter's decision where and how to spend that portion that comes back, not ours. So conceivably, one could choose to spend none of it in the manner the EU chooses, and instead route all of it to the NHS.

    Of all the arguments about how mendacious the Leave campaign was, this strikes me as among the weakest. It is like saying that Corbyn said in the election that he'd set up a National Care Service, but has not done so, and is thus a wicked liar.

    The figure was a lie. We don't send £350m. We never did.

    The "give it to the NHS instead" was a lie. Whatever the number, it will never be spent exclusively on the NHS

    It's not the same as Corbyn. Corbyn said things would happen if people voted for his plan. They did not vote for his plan. Boris said things would happen if people voted for his plan. They did vote that way. Boris deserves all the criticism he gets
    We pay £17 billion gross of which we get a proportion back. The £350 million is defensible, for the reasons outlined previously.

    No intelligent person can have believed that £350 million would be spent on the NHS, because this would require a government decision, and a government was not being voted for. I get that you would like people to have thought this a promise, so that it can be characterised as a lie, but the comparison with Corbyn is exact.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,914

    Scott_P said:

    I honestly do not get this idea that £350 million for the NHS was some sort of lie.

    Given that we (well, others - I abstained) were not voting for a government, the "for the NHS" tag was clearly a suggestion, not a promise by anyone, because a Leave vote would not put anybody into a position to implement it. It would just make it possible, if the government wanted to do that.

    And re the amount, well, yes, some of the £350 million comes back, so perhaps the net figure applies. But also perhaps not. Having rendered £350 million a week unto Brussels, it is the latter's decision where and how to spend that portion that comes back, not ours. So conceivably, one could choose to spend none of it in the manner the EU chooses, and instead route all of it to the NHS.

    Of all the arguments about how mendacious the Leave campaign was, this strikes me as among the weakest. It is like saying that Corbyn said in the election that he'd set up a National Care Service, but has not done so, and is thus a wicked liar.

    The figure was a lie. We don't send £350m. We never did.

    The "give it to the NHS instead" was a lie. Whatever the number, it will never be spent exclusively on the NHS

    It's not the same as Corbyn. Corbyn said things would happen if people voted for his plan. They did not vote for his plan. Boris said things would happen if people voted for his plan. They did vote that way. Boris deserves all the criticism he gets
    We pay £17 billion gross of which we get a proportion back. The £350 million is defensible, for the reasons outlined previously.

    No intelligent person can have believed that £350 million would be spent on the NHS, because this would require a government decision, and a government was not being voted for. I get that you would like people to have thought this a promise, so that it can be characterised as a lie, but the comparison with Corbyn is exact.
    The rebate never actually goes to Brussels, so the correct number is £12-13bn (I think).
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    No intelligent person can have believed that £350 million would be spent on the NHS

    You may have summarised a large proportion of the Leave vote. No wonder Remain lost

    :D:D:D:D

    (Not serious, but it was too good to miss)

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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    FF43 said:

    On topic, the next Conservative leader is going to need to be able to lead, rather than simply embody the default prejudices of the average Conservative. By that test, Boris Johnson looks the most suited to the role, for all his many flaws.

    Going through the project stages: (1) unbridled enthusiasm; (2) mounting concern; (3) outright panic; (4) hunt for the guilty; (5) punishment of the innocent; (6) promotion of the uninvolved. On that basis Boris Johnson is too involved to be next leader and someone who is in a department that has relatively little to do with Brexit should be considered and who has stuck pretty much to the oscillating party line on Brexit. I am going for Sajid Javid*, who has had a good press for his competence on the Grenfell Tower incident.

    * Another possibility is Jeremy Hunt but he has some baggage and may not be seen as a "safe pair of hands"
    Who it will be (instead of who it should be) is harder to judge. Leaders are almost always chosen for who they aren't rather than who they are. But there are so many different negative qualities that the relevant electorate is going to be testing against that it's hard to work out which is going to be decisive.

    On the basis that she has almost no black marks on any of these tests, perhaps we should be paying much closer attention to Amber Rudd as a contender than is normal on these threads.
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    rcs1000 said:

    Merkel and Macron have announced a project to create a next generation European fighter jet that would replace the existing Rafales and Eurofighters.

    Will BAE find themselves out in the cold?

    The future is drones. There's an Anglo-Dutch startup* which is working on a fighter drone that is more maneuverable, faster, doesn't have to worry about pulling Gs, can refuel itself in mid-air, and can loiter for days at a time. It also doesn't need all the stuff to keep the pilot alive, so it's smaller and stealthier than a traditional plane.

    The Eurofighter, the F35, etc., are all white elephants who won't stand a chance against the next generation of drones.

    * I say start-up, but they've raised billions
    Drones are a fantastic way to go so long as their command and control comms are not disrupted. I mean, who would do such a thing?
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