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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This week’s Euratom row does not bode well for the year ahead

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited July 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This week’s Euratom row does not bode well for the year ahead

In a week’s time, our MPs will have packed up for the Summer recess and will be settling down to their traditional pass-times of making pleasantries at constituency events, exposing bad taste in casual dress, and long-distance plotting. By the time they return on a full-time basis (they pop back for a week in September before conference season), more than a quarter of the time set aside for Britain’s Brexit negotiations with the EU will have passed.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Twenty-eighth!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Twenty-ninth. :D
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40615119

    That's all Cameron needed. Would be surprised if it was offered though.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Fourth! Like the Lib Dems. Has Vince got out his nuclear weapon yet?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    RobD said:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40615119

    That's all Cameron needed. Would be surprised if it was offered though.

    Would you buy a reformed CAP from this man?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    On topic - we are indeed in for a torrid time if MPs are always getting buyers remorse over things they've already voted for - like leaving Euratom.....It's one thing to think voters don't understand the consequences of their actions (not actually backed up by polling evidence - there's plenty that says voters were aware they were trading sovereignty for potential future prosperity in BREXIT) but it's quite another to suggest MPs don't.....
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited July 2017
    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40615119

    That's all Cameron needed. Would be surprised if it was offered though.

    Would you buy a reformed CAP from this man?
    Good point.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,880

    On topic - we are indeed in for a torrid time if MPs are always getting buyers remorse over things they've already voted for - like leaving Euratom.....It's one thing to think voters don't understand the consequences of their actions (not actually backed up by polling evidence - there's plenty that says voters were aware they were trading sovereignty for potential future prosperity in BREXIT) but it's quite another to suggest MPs don't.....

    Is it that unusual for MPs to vote for a bill where they agree with most of it but object to a few small bits?

    In any case - this surely won't be that hard to sort out - some kind of associate membership can surely be reached...
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited July 2017

    RobD said:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40615119

    That's all Cameron needed. Would be surprised if it was offered though.

    Would you buy a reformed CAP from this man?
    We just need Gordon Brown to come out with a suggestion now and the whole thing will be completely fecked.
    I'd like it all to be over one way or another, the constant carping is unbearable.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,122

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited July 2017

    RobD said:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40615119

    That's all Cameron needed. Would be surprised if it was offered though.

    Would you buy a reformed CAP from this man?
    We just need Gordon Brown to come out with a suggestion now and the whole thing will be completely fecked.
    I'd like it all to be over one way or another, the constant carping is unbearable.
    BTW The picture of Blair on the front page of the BBC website makes me think of Yoda



  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Morning all, from sunny Kiev. A very perceptive article from David as usual, I think he's right that the public in general are going to get fed up of all the Brexit stuff - the vote was a year ago and they want the politicians to just get on with it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Good luck and have a great day to anynPBers going to Silverstone, Trent Bridge, Wimbledon, Fairford, Beaulieu or one of the many other events on today around the country - I do miss England in the summer sometimes.

    I won't be keeping up with any of the events either, as today's Mrs Sandpit's birthday so more important things take priority!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    rkrkrk said:

    On topic - we are indeed in for a torrid time if MPs are always getting buyers remorse over things they've already voted for - like leaving Euratom.....It's one thing to think voters don't understand the consequences of their actions (not actually backed up by polling evidence - there's plenty that says voters were aware they were trading sovereignty for potential future prosperity in BREXIT) but it's quite another to suggest MPs don't.....

    Is it that unusual for MPs to vote for a bill where they agree with most of it but object to a few small bits?

    In any case - this surely won't be that hard to sort out - some kind of associate membership can surely be reached...
    When MP’s vote for some ill thought-out, Press hysteria driven legislation.... for example the Dangerous Dogs Act ...... it doesn’t matter too much. When they vote for something similarly driven which really matters... like leaving the Euratom, never mind the EU, ..... then we really do have a problem.

    I don’t recall the position of Euratim being discussed...... if discussion is the right word for much that went on then .... during the referendum campaign. If it had been, and the consequences explained, I wonder if the million of so votes which swung it would have voted the way they did.

    I’m glad I’m soon to start radiotherapy, not expecting it in 18 months or so!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    Sandpit said:

    Good luck and have a great day to anynPBers going to Silverstone, Trent Bridge, Wimbledon, Fairford, Beaulieu or one of the many other events on today around the country - I do miss England in the summer sometimes.

    I won't be keeping up with any of the events either, as today's Mrs Sandpit's birthday so more important things take priority!

    A happy birthday to Mrs S. Enjoy the celebrations. It’s Mrs C’s today, too. Also our local Carnival, so yesterday she spent baking cakes for the Womens Institure stall!
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Good luck and have a great day to anynPBers going to Silverstone, Trent Bridge, Wimbledon, Fairford, Beaulieu or one of the many other events on today around the country - I do miss England in the summer sometimes.

    I won't be keeping up with any of the events either, as today's Mrs Sandpit's birthday so more important things take priority!

    A happy birthday to Mrs S. Enjoy the celebrations. It’s Mrs C’s today, too. Also our local Carnival, so yesterday she spent baking cakes for the Womens Institure stall!
    Happy birthday to Mrs C too! I've got lunch with the outlaws to look forward to, having already been relived of most of the contents of my wallet at the jewellers! Happy days :)
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    The Tories know they will be held accountable for the outcome for a generation, and for those of their MPs with concerns, this will be their last chance to influence history in a different direction. Whereas Labour MPs all have a potential upside if they can bring the government down, even those that might objectively have supported the proposition rather than the amendment. That's why, with one or two exceptions (such as Hoey), I think the Labour side will find it easier to stick together than the Tories.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, from sunny Kiev. A very perceptive article from David as usual, I think he's right that the public in general are going to get fed up of all the Brexit stuff - the vote was a year ago and they want the politicians to just get on with it.

    I think that a common reaction, but actually the politicians are getting on with it. Indeed the Queens Speech contains nothing else. The idea that such major and all encompassing change can happen overnight is delusional.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    edited July 2017
    From Blair's piece:

    "The Macron victory changes the political dynamics of Europe. The members of the Euro zone will integrate economic decision-making. Inevitably, therefore, Europe will comprise an inner and outer circle. Reform is now on Europe’s agenda. The European leaders, certainly from my discussions, are willing to consider changes to accommodate Britain, including around freedom of movement."

    http://institute.global/news/brexit-and-centre

    Blair, Cameron and others did not make it clear where they wanted Britain to be had we remained in the EU. Further integration based on use of the Euro, is a 'reform' which changes UK's relationship with Brussels, is that really in the UK's interest? Brexit can be viewed as an extreme policy, but so too can pursuit of political integration with full monetary, and fiscal union.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    dr_spyn said:

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
    Macron was just demonstrating a bit of political skill, by being polite to a buffoon. There are few friends in international politics, just aligned interests.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: qualifying today. Bottas has a five place grid penalty for a gearbox change. Odd that Mercedes is the team suffering with reliability more than Ferrari.

    Meanwhile, man who threw away half the rebate comments on free movement and how flexible the EU could be:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40615119
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, from sunny Kiev. A very perceptive article from David as usual, I think he's right that the public in general are going to get fed up of all the Brexit stuff - the vote was a year ago and they want the politicians to just get on with it.

    I think that a common reaction, but actually the politicians are getting on with it. Indeed the Queens Speech contains nothing else. The idea that such major and all encompassing change can happen overnight is delusional.
    I agree with that, the politicians and government are indeed doing almost nothing else.

    I was thinking more of those who should be engaging with the process instead complaining about it in public, with headlines like "Brexit Will Give You Cancer" as we saw last week.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,191

    RobD said:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40615119

    That's all Cameron needed. Would be surprised if it was offered though.

    Would you buy a reformed CAP from this man?
    Given the quality of the other salespeople, yes.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,191
    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, from sunny Kiev. A very perceptive article from David as usual, I think he's right that the public in general are going to get fed up of all the Brexit stuff - the vote was a year ago and they want the politicians to just get on with it.

    No, half the public wants them to get on with it and the other half doesn't want it to happen. We haven't shifted in 12 months.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,880

    rkrkrk said:

    On topic - we are indeed in for a torrid time if MPs are always getting buyers remorse over things they've already voted for - like leaving Euratom.....It's one thing to think voters don't understand the consequences of their actions (not actually backed up by polling evidence - there's plenty that says voters were aware they were trading sovereignty for potential future prosperity in BREXIT) but it's quite another to suggest MPs don't.....

    Is it that unusual for MPs to vote for a bill where they agree with most of it but object to a few small bits?

    In any case - this surely won't be that hard to sort out - some kind of associate membership can surely be reached...
    When MP’s vote for some ill thought-out, Press hysteria driven legislation.... for example the Dangerous Dogs Act ...... it doesn’t matter too much. When they vote for something similarly driven which really matters... like leaving the Euratom, never mind the EU, ..... then we really do have a problem.

    I don’t recall the position of Euratim being discussed...... if discussion is the right word for much that went on then .... during the referendum campaign. If it had been, and the consequences explained, I wonder if the million of so votes which swung it would have voted the way they did.

    I’m glad I’m soon to start radiotherapy, not expecting it in 18 months or so!
    I don't think it was mentioned during the campaign. Perhaps that's the fault of remain.
    But honestly it is a very small piece of the overall Brexit puzzle - I'm not surprised it didn't come up, and I doubt it would have swung many votes.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, from sunny Kiev. A very perceptive article from David as usual, I think he's right that the public in general are going to get fed up of all the Brexit stuff - the vote was a year ago and they want the politicians to just get on with it.

    I think that a common reaction, but actually the politicians are getting on with it. Indeed the Queens Speech contains nothing else. The idea that such major and all encompassing change can happen overnight is delusional.
    I agree with that, the politicians and government are indeed doing almost nothing else.

    I was thinking more of those who should be engaging with the process instead complaining about it in public, with headlines like "Brexit Will Give You Cancer" as we saw last week.
    There is a lot to complain about! Voters were extravagantly warned that there would be damaging consequences of Brexit, then voted for it anyway. What they want is for the adverse consequences to fall on other people and other industries while they themselves get special exemptions.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,191
    IanB2 said:

    The Tories know they will be held accountable for the outcome for a generation, and for those of their MPs with concerns, this will be their last chance to influence history in a different direction. Whereas Labour MPs all have a potential upside if they can bring the government down, even those that might objectively have supported the proposition rather than the amendment. That's why, with one or two exceptions (such as Hoey), I think the Labour side will find it easier to stick together than the Tories.

    Issues like workers rights and environmental protection are easy for Labour to unite around.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The Conservatives will be like pigs in mud, endlessly absorbed with the intricacies of the EU for years on end. Ultimately, all that the public will notice is the mud.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited July 2017
    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    I just saw one article saying that tbh - specifically the author was praising Macron's diplomacy skills. I agree with @foxinsoxuk on this one.

    @dr_spyn Er, I didn't see anyone predicting that there would be any protests in France. You don't have to go out and protest in order not to be a fan of Trump.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164

    rkrkrk said:

    On topic - we are indeed in for a torrid time if MPs are always getting buyers remorse over things they've already voted for - like leaving Euratom.....It's one thing to think voters don't understand the consequences of their actions (not actually backed up by polling evidence - there's plenty that says voters were aware they were trading sovereignty for potential future prosperity in BREXIT) but it's quite another to suggest MPs don't.....

    Is it that unusual for MPs to vote for a bill where they agree with most of it but object to a few small bits?

    In any case - this surely won't be that hard to sort out - some kind of associate membership can surely be reached...
    When MP’s vote for some ill thought-out, Press hysteria driven legislation.... for example the Dangerous Dogs Act ...... it doesn’t matter too much. When they vote for something similarly driven which really matters... like leaving the Euratom, never mind the EU, ..... then we really do have a problem.

    I don’t recall the position of Euratim being discussed...... if discussion is the right word for much that went on then .... during the referendum campaign. If it had been, and the consequences explained, I wonder if the million of so votes which swung it would have voted the way they did.

    I’m glad I’m soon to start radiotherapy, not expecting it in 18 months or so!
    It could be that Euratom wasn't discussed by Remain because they were led by people who didn't understand it themselves. Alternatively, it could be that they didn't want to go there because it would have seemed like they were making the "oh, it's too difficult to do" argument which would have implied we had lost our sovereignty.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876

    dr_spyn said:

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
    Macron was just demonstrating a bit of political skill, by being polite to a buffoon. There are few friends in international politics, just aligned interests.

    The UK's decision to downgrade itself in the international arena has created an opportunity for France which Macron has decided to exploit. Unlike May, Macron firmly established himself as entirely independent of Trump before reaching out to him as the leader of what remains the most powerful country on earth. It's been a very smart play.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, from sunny Kiev. A very perceptive article from David as usual, I think he's right that the public in general are going to get fed up of all the Brexit stuff - the vote was a year ago and they want the politicians to just get on with it.

    I think that a common reaction, but actually the politicians are getting on with it. Indeed the Queens Speech contains nothing else. The idea that such major and all encompassing change can happen overnight is delusional.
    I agree with that, the politicians and government are indeed doing almost nothing else.

    I was thinking more of those who should be engaging with the process instead complaining about it in public, with headlines like "Brexit Will Give You Cancer" as we saw last week.
    There is a lot to complain about! Voters were extravagantly warned that there would be damaging consequences of Brexit, then voted for it anyway. What they want is for the adverse consequences to fall on other people and other industries while they themselves get special exemptions.
    Possibly, but they'd prefer for example the Royal Society of Radiologists to engage constructively with government and others to secure their supplies, rather that just saying this is too difficult and we'll all die 'cos Brexit. The decision was made and it would be much better to see all these intelligent people work together to ensure the best outcome, rather than complain that the people got it wrong.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164

    dr_spyn said:

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
    Macron was just demonstrating a bit of political skill, by being polite to a buffoon. There are few friends in international politics, just aligned interests.
    I think he's been a bit more than just polite!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876
    Sandpit said:

    Good luck and have a great day to anynPBers going to Silverstone, Trent Bridge, Wimbledon, Fairford, Beaulieu or one of the many other events on today around the country - I do miss England in the summer sometimes.

    I won't be keeping up with any of the events either, as today's Mrs Sandpit's birthday so more important things take priority!

    Just getting on with it is not an option. The best choice for our economy and for living standards involves creating a huge split in the Conservative party. And, as we know, the Tories always put party before country (and, of course, self before party).

  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited July 2017

    dr_spyn said:

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
    Macron was just demonstrating a bit of political skill, by being polite to a buffoon. There are few friends in international politics, just aligned interests.

    The UK's decision to downgrade itself in the international arena has created an opportunity for France which Macron has decided to exploit. Unlike May, Macron firmly established himself as entirely independent of Trump before reaching out to him as the leader of what remains the most powerful country on earth. It's been a very smart play.

    Trump supporters on Twitter have been entertaining and weird, as per usual. Their analysis of the visit range from 'Macron has been redpilled' (a phrase I've only ever seen on the internet) to believing that the world 'loves President Trump' to still seeing Macron as the enemy.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, from sunny Kiev. A very perceptive article from David as usual, I think he's right that the public in general are going to get fed up of all the Brexit stuff - the vote was a year ago and they want the politicians to just get on with it.

    I think that a common reaction, but actually the politicians are getting on with it. Indeed the Queens Speech contains nothing else. The idea that such major and all encompassing change can happen overnight is delusional.
    I agree with that, the politicians and government are indeed doing almost nothing else.

    I was thinking more of those who should be engaging with the process instead complaining about it in public, with headlines like "Brexit Will Give You Cancer" as we saw last week.
    There is a lot to complain about! Voters were extravagantly warned that there would be damaging consequences of Brexit, then voted for it anyway. What they want is for the adverse consequences to fall on other people and other industries while they themselves get special exemptions.
    Possibly, but they'd prefer for example the Royal Society of Radiologists to engage constructively with government and others to secure their supplies, rather that just saying this is too difficult and we'll all die 'cos Brexit. The decision was made and it would be much better to see all these intelligent people work together to ensure the best outcome, rather than complain that the people got it wrong.

    The government has shown for a year that it has no interest in working with anyone to secure the best possible Brexit. People have got the message. The only way to get a reaction is to go public with concerns that have been expressed in private for months.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, from sunny Kiev. A very perceptive article from David as usual, I think he's right that the public in general are going to get fed up of all the Brexit stuff - the vote was a year ago and they want the politicians to just get on with it.

    I think that a common reaction, but actually the politicians are getting on with it. Indeed the Queens Speech contains nothing else. The idea that such major and all encompassing change can happen overnight is delusional.
    I agree with that, the politicians and government are indeed doing almost nothing else.

    I was thinking more of those who should be engaging with the process instead complaining about it in public, with headlines like "Brexit Will Give You Cancer" as we saw last week.
    There is a lot to complain about! Voters were extravagantly warned that there would be damaging consequences of Brexit, then voted for it anyway. What they want is for the adverse consequences to fall on other people and other industries while they themselves get special exemptions.
    Possibly, but they'd prefer for example the Royal Society of Radiologists to engage constructively with government and others to secure their supplies, rather that just saying this is too difficult and we'll all die 'cos Brexit. The decision was made and it would be much better to see all these intelligent people work together to ensure the best outcome, rather than complain that the people got it wrong.
    Government is going to be very absorbed with Brexit. Those with individual concerns are probably best advised to head for the tabloids since it will be the best way of securing government attention. And if Brexit really does threaten to be disruptive for medical supplies, that is a tad newsworthy, don't you think? Or are you of the Andrea Leadsom school of patriotism?
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    dr_spyn said:

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
    Macron was just demonstrating a bit of political skill, by being polite to a buffoon. There are few friends in international politics, just aligned interests.

    The UK's decision to downgrade itself in the international arena has created an opportunity for France which Macron has decided to exploit. Unlike May, Macron firmly established himself as entirely independent of Trump before reaching out to him as the leader of what remains the most powerful country on earth. It's been a very smart play.

    SO, poodle lover.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876
    This is the kind of contribution to the Brexit debate that should be listened to:

    http://institute.global/news/brexit-and-centre

    Unfortunately, it was written by Tony Blair so will be dismissed completely by both the Tories and Labour.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    This is the kind of contribution to the Brexit debate that should be listened to:

    http://institute.global/news/brexit-and-centre

    Unfortunately, it was written by Tony Blair so will be dismissed completely by both the Tories and Labour.

    Yep. Iraq is the reason why many no longer listen to what Blair has to say anymore.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    This is the kind of contribution to the Brexit debate that should be listened to:

    http://institute.global/news/brexit-and-centre

    Unfortunately, it was written by Tony Blair so will be dismissed completely by both the Tories and Labour.

    If the EU is willing to consider an accommodation with Britain on freedom of movement it needs to say so publicly at once. Since it would involve numerous decision-makers eating their past words and a radical change of direction, I am highly sceptical, whatever private conversations Tony Blair might have had.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    RobD said:

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40615119

    That's all Cameron needed. Would be surprised if it was offered though.

    If true (and considering the source, one has to treat it with 45 minutes worth of pinches of salt), it points out how self defeating Europe's dismissal of Cameron (and/or his failure to press the renegotiation) was.

    One point which has the ring of absolute truth:
    Mr Blair said Labour's vision of a "jobs first" Brexit outside the single market was a "contradiction in terms".
    "So when people blithely say, 'We will get roughly the same terms as we do now with the single market,' I literally know no-one in the European system who believes this," he wrote.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, from sunny Kiev. A very perceptive article from David as usual, I think he's right that the public in general are going to get fed up of all the Brexit stuff - the vote was a year ago and they want the politicians to just get on with it.

    I think that a common reaction, but actually the politicians are getting on with it. Indeed the Queens Speech contains nothing else. The idea that such major and all encompassing change can happen overnight is delusional.
    I agree with that, the politicians and government are indeed doing almost nothing else.

    I was thinking more of those who should be engaging with the process instead complaining about it in public, with headlines like "Brexit Will Give You Cancer" as we saw last week.
    There is a lot to complain about! Voters were extravagantly warned that there would be damaging consequences of Brexit, then voted for it anyway. What they want is for the adverse consequences to fall on other people and other industries while they themselves get special exemptions.
    Possibly, but they'd prefer for example the Royal Society of Radiologists to engage constructively with government and others to secure their supplies, rather that just saying this is too difficult and we'll all die 'cos Brexit. The decision was made and it would be much better to see all these intelligent people work together to ensure the best outcome, rather than complain that the people got it wrong.
    Government is going to be very absorbed with Brexit. Those with individual concerns are probably best advised to head for the tabloids since it will be the best way of securing government attention. And if Brexit really does threaten to be disruptive for medical supplies, that is a tad newsworthy, don't you think? Or are you of the Andrea Leadsom school of patriotism?
    I certainly wouldn't describe myself as being a Leadsom, although maybe a Hannan on a good day.
    The Royal Colleges and the DoH have clearly got this on their radar (so to speak!), and the tabloid hysteria and scaremongering adds way more heat than light to the debate.

    The general public will be wondering how the rest of the world's hospitals manage to cope perfectly well outside Euratom.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited July 2017
    This analysis in particular by....Blair of all people is especially spot on:

    Our poll shows people want change and by large numbers and in all three countries. Years of austerity and an acute sense of an elite separated from the rest has led to a belief that the promise of generational progress has ended. This generation believes it has done better than the last. But it does not believe the next generation will do better than them.

    That is the market of anxiety in which the populists peddle quack solutions.

    But the poll also shows that support for the centre stays strong. People will default to populism when a radical centre is not on offer; where it is, they will vote it in, as Macron has shown.

    I am not advocating a new Party. Quite apart from the desirability of such a thing, our political system puts formidable barriers in its path.

    In any event, as a member of the Labour Party of over 40 years standing, I want the Labour Party to capture this ground.

    But there are millions of politically homeless in Britain. They are not going to wander the by-ways of politics, bedding down uncomfortably, forever, not with their country in the dire shape it is in.

    The challenge for the centre is to be the place of changing the status quo not managing it.

    If it does, it still beats everything else.

    What the progressive centre lacks is a radical policy agenda.



  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876

    This is the kind of contribution to the Brexit debate that should be listened to:

    http://institute.global/news/brexit-and-centre

    Unfortunately, it was written by Tony Blair so will be dismissed completely by both the Tories and Labour.

    If the EU is willing to consider an accommodation with Britain on freedom of movement it needs to say so publicly at once. Since it would involve numerous decision-makers eating their past words and a radical change of direction, I am highly sceptical, whatever private conversations Tony Blair might have had.

    I am inclined to agree. The approach the government Brexiteers have taken up to now has all but destroyed the chances of a big, bold offer from the EU27, whose negotiating position gets stronger by the day. The one window left might be after a resounding Merkel win in the German election. But you do have to wonder whether fundamentalists like Davis would be willing to take up anything that was proferred.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    edited July 2017
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, from sunny Kiev. A very perceptive article from David as usual, I think he's right that the public in general are going to get fed up of all the Brexit stuff - the vote was a year ago and they want the politicians to just get on with it.

    I think that a common reaction, but actually the politicians are getting on with it. Indeed the Queens Speech contains nothing else. The idea that such major and all encompassing change can happen overnight is delusional.
    I agree with that, the politicians and government are indeed doing almost nothing else.
    I was thinking more of those who should be engaging with the process instead complaining about it in public, with headlines like "Brexit Will Give You Cancer" as we saw last week.
    Government is going to be very absorbed with Brexit. Those with individual concerns are probably best advised to head for the tabloids since it will be the best way of securing government attention. And if Brexit really does threaten to be disruptive for medical supplies, that is a tad newsworthy, don't you think? Or are you of the Andrea Leadsom school of patriotism?
    I certainly wouldn't describe myself as being a Leadsom, although maybe a Hannan on a good day.
    The Royal Colleges and the DoH have clearly got this on their radar (so to speak!), and the tabloid hysteria and scaremongering adds way more heat than light to the debate.

    The general public will be wondering how the rest of the world's hospitals manage to cope perfectly well outside Euratom.
    One of the biggest challenges we face is the urgent need to recreate institutional frameworks (such as new regulatory bodies) for managing regulations across a wide variety of fields, that are currently dealt with through the EU. Otherwise we will reach the A50 date and be unable to answer basic questions about how to get things regulated or certified, and all the legislation freshly copied into UK law will be unworkable since it won't have the mechanisms in place to make it all work.

    You might think this is an obvious point, but it isn't one I have heard anyone on government talking about.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557

    This is the kind of contribution to the Brexit debate that should be listened to:

    http://institute.global/news/brexit-and-centre

    Unfortunately, it was written by Tony Blair so will be dismissed completely by both the Tories and Labour.

    It is...... and it was. Were one able completely to erase his history, Blair would be sounding extremely persuasive on the Today programme right now.

    A further caveat on the link you post - polling research was conducted by Luntz Global Partners...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    An excellent thread header (again) from Mr Herdson, not least because it well expresses my own thoughts.
    :smile:

    Schultz is not just an arch-Europhile, he has also given every indication of being an arch-Anglophobe.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Morning all, from sunny Kiev. A very perceptive article from David as usual, I think he's right that the public in general are going to get fed up of all the Brexit stuff - the vote was a year ago and they want the politicians to just get on with it.

    I think that a common reaction, but actually the politicians are getting on with it. Indeed the Queens Speech contains nothing else. The idea that such major and all encompassing change can happen overnight is delusional.
    I agree with that, the politicians and government are indeed doing almost nothing else.

    I was thinking more of those who should be engaging with the process instead complaining about it in public, with headlines like "Brexit Will Give You Cancer" as we saw last week.
    There is a lot to complain about! Voters were extravagantly warned that there would be damaging consequences of Brexit, then voted for it anyway. What they want is for the adverse consequences to fall on other people and other industries while they themselves get special exemptions.
    Possibly, but they'd prefer forher than complain that the people got it wrong.
    Government is going to be very absorbed with Brexit. Those with individual concerns are probably best advised to head for the tabloids since it will be the best way of securing government attention. And if Brexit really does threaten to be disruptive for medical supplies, that is a tad newsworthy, don't you think? Or are you of the Andrea Leadsom school of patriotism?
    I certainly wouldn't describe myself as being a Leadsom, although maybe a Hannan on a good day.
    The Royal Colleges and the DoH have clearly got this on their radar (so to speak!), and the tabloid hysteria and scaremongering adds way more heat than light to the debate.

    The general public will be wondering how the rest of the world's hospitals manage to cope perfectly well outside Euratom.

    By not having been a part of it. The whole point is that the government ruled out us staying in while doing absolutely nothing about addressing the negative effects of that decision. By making a fuss in public having been completely ignored in private the radiologists and others have now got a reaction and some hope that the very serious issues they've raised will be dealt with. It's no way to run a country, but it's where we've arrived at. And because of the massive complexities involved in Brexit this scenario is going to be played out time and again.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557

    This analysis in particular by....Blair of all people is especially spot on:

    Our poll shows people want change and by large numbers and in all three countries. Years of austerity and an acute sense of an elite separated from the rest has led to a belief that the promise of generational progress has ended. This generation believes it has done better than the last. But it does not believe the next generation will do better than them.

    That is the market of anxiety in which the populists peddle quack solutions.

    But the poll also shows that support for the centre stays strong. People will default to populism when a radical centre is not on offer; where it is, they will vote it in, as Macron has shown.

    I am not advocating a new Party. Quite apart from the desirability of such a thing, our political system puts formidable barriers in its path.

    In any event, as a member of the Labour Party of over 40 years standing, I want the Labour Party to capture this ground.

    But there are millions of politically homeless in Britain. They are not going to wander the by-ways of politics, bedding down uncomfortably, forever, not with their country in the dire shape it is in.

    The challenge for the centre is to be the place of changing the status quo not managing it.

    If it does, it still beats everything else.

    What the progressive centre lacks is a radical policy agenda.



    Yes, I hate it when I agree with Blair.
    Though the idea that Labour is likely to become the party of the radical centre any time soon is utterly risible.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,542
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    l.

    I agree with that, the politicians and government are indeed doing almost nothing else.

    I was thinking more of those who should be engaging with the process instead complaining about it in public, with headlines like "Brexit Will Give You Cancer" as we saw last week.
    There is a lot to complain about! Voters were extravagantly warned that there would be damaging consequences of Brexit, then voted for it anyway. What they want is for the adverse consequences to fall on other people and other industries while they themselves get special exemptions.
    Possibly, but they'd prefer for example the Royal Society of Radiologists to engage constructively with government and others to secure their supplies, rather that just saying this is too difficult and we'll all die 'cos Brexit. The decision was made and it would be much better to see all these intelligent people work together to ensure the best outcome, rather than complain that the people got it wrong.
    Government is going to be very absorbed with Brexit. Those with individual concerns are probably best advised to head for the tabloids since it will be the best way of securing government attention. And if Brexit really does threaten to be disruptive for medical supplies, that is a tad newsworthy, don't you think? Or are you of the Andrea Leadsom school of patriotism?
    I certainly wouldn't describe myself as being a Leadsom, although maybe a Hannan on a good day.
    The Royal Colleges and the DoH have clearly got this on their radar (so to speak!), and the tabloid hysteria and scaremongering adds way more heat than light to the debate.

    The general public will be wondering how the rest of the world's hospitals manage to cope perfectly well outside Euratom.
    Daniel Hannan is the most disingenuous of all politicians. The tyre is hitting the road and he can't hide anymore.

    How do other countries cope without the EU misses the point. It's like saying how do other people cope with not being married to Bill when you are going through a divorce with Bill and you are about to lose your house. We get important things from Euratom that will lose and aren't rapidly replicable. This applies across a large array of agreements. None of it makes sense but we are where we are.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Meeks, I agree.

    I said some weeks ago that if the EU actually wanted us to remain they'd have to throw some red meat (other countries are not in a position to try and leave as easily [yes, yes, I'm aware it's difficult for us to actually escape the tentacles, but far harder for other countries]) so the risk of a repetition elsewhere is unlikely.

    A few billion added to the rebate could've done it, but a major reform on free movement would but as significant.

    Blair's baggage sinks his arguments with most (or many, at least) people from the outset.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    This is the kind of contribution to the Brexit debate that should be listened to:

    http://institute.global/news/brexit-and-centre

    Unfortunately, it was written by Tony Blair so will be dismissed completely by both the Tories and Labour.

    Blair's rebate disaster was one of the catalysts for Brexit. He's a quack.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Reading some on here I'm amazed the world is still spinning a year on from the referendum.

    In the most laughable scenario ever they are now quoting Tony Blair's advice on Brexit and the EU. Errrh, he was wheeled out in June of last year - tell me how that worked out.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    F1: current forecast is dry qualifying and race, but rain has appeared right after the race, so pay attention to that. Could easily drift earlier.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited July 2017
    Nigelb said:

    This analysis in particular by....Blair of all people is especially spot on:

    Our poll shows people want change and by large numbers and in all three countries. Years of austerity and an acute sense of an elite separated from the rest has led to a belief that the promise of generational progress has ended. This generation believes it has done better than the last. But it does not believe the next generation will do better than them.

    That is the market of anxiety in which the populists peddle quack solutions.

    But the poll also shows that support for the centre stays strong. People will default to populism when a radical centre is not on offer; where it is, they will vote it in, as Macron has shown.

    I am not advocating a new Party. Quite apart from the desirability of such a thing, our political system puts formidable barriers in its path.

    In any event, as a member of the Labour Party of over 40 years standing, I want the Labour Party to capture this ground.

    But there are millions of politically homeless in Britain. They are not going to wander the by-ways of politics, bedding down uncomfortably, forever, not with their country in the dire shape it is in.

    The challenge for the centre is to be the place of changing the status quo not managing it.

    If it does, it still beats everything else.

    What the progressive centre lacks is a radical policy agenda.



    Though the idea that Labour is likely to become the party of the radical centre any time soon is utterly risible.
    I agree, sadly.

    In my exchanges with Corbynistas, I've learned that many of them see centrism as this utterly evil ideology.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,122

    dr_spyn said:

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
    Macron was just demonstrating a bit of political skill, by being polite to a buffoon. There are few friends in international politics, just aligned interests.
    In other words he was following May's approach. Of course people like you will refuse to admit it.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    felix said:

    dr_spyn said:

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
    Macron was just demonstrating a bit of political skill, by being polite to a buffoon. There are few friends in international politics, just aligned interests.
    In other words he was following May's approach. Of course people like you will refuse to admit it.
    Yep, Macron shakes hands with Trump he's being smart; May shakes hands with Trump she's being stupid.

    This site had degenerated into a non thinking playground for tribalists.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,122

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    I just saw one article saying that tbh - specifically the author was praising Macron's diplomacy skills. I agree with @foxinsoxuk on this one.

    @dr_spyn Er, I didn't see anyone predicting that there would be any protests in France. You don't have to go out and protest in order not to be a fan of Trump.
    Of course you follow Foxy's line - Macron good May bad!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    IanB2 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    I think that a common reaction, but actually the politicians are getting on with it. Indeed the Queens Speech contains nothing else. The idea that such major and all encompassing change can happen overnight is delusional.
    I agree with that, the politicians and government are indeed doing almost nothing else.
    I was thinking more of those who should be engaging with the process instead complaining about it in public, with headlines like "Brexit Will Give You Cancer" as we saw last week.
    Government is going to be very absorbed with Brexit. Those with individual concerns are probably best advised to head for the tabloids since it will be the best way of securing government attention. And if Brexit really does threaten to be disruptive for medical supplies, that is a tad newsworthy, don't you think? Or are you of the Andrea Leadsom school of patriotism?
    I certainly wouldn't describe myself as being a Leadsom, although maybe a Hannan on a good day.
    The Royal Colleges and the DoH have clearly got this on their radar (so to speak!), and the tabloid hysteria and scaremongering adds way more heat than light to the debate.

    The general public will be wondering how the rest of the world's hospitals manage to cope perfectly well outside Euratom.
    One of the biggest challenges we face is the urgent need to recreate institutional frameworks (such as new regulatory bodies) for managing regulations across a wide variety of fields, that are currently dealt with through the EU. Otherwise we will reach the A50 date and be unable to answer basic questions about how to get things regulated or certified, and all the legislation freshly copied into UK law will be unworkable since it won't have the mechanisms in place to make it all work.

    You might think this is an obvious point, but it isn't one I have heard anyone on government talking about.
    Agree completely. I think there is a lot of discussion going on behind the scenes, and if the EU don't want us as paying associate members of Euratom, EASA etc. after we leave then we should prioritise some transition period in those areas to allow us to set up our own bodies.

    The headlines of the past week or two, however, just look from afar like the last acts of desperation by the hardcore Remainers to try and shift public opinion against Brexit.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Good to hear Blair on the radio this morning. Refreshing to hear a centrist. If only our politics could generate a new, fresh one.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    felix said:

    dr_spyn said:

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
    Macron was just demonstrating a bit of political skill, by being polite to a buffoon. There are few friends in international politics, just aligned interests.
    In other words he was following May's approach. Of course people like you will refuse to admit it.
    Except he signalled superiority to his own electorate, while May displayed subservience.
    She lacks completely the necessary tools of public politics.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Nigelb said:

    felix said:

    dr_spyn said:

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
    Macron was just demonstrating a bit of political skill, by being polite to a buffoon. There are few friends in international politics, just aligned interests.
    In other words he was following May's approach. Of course people like you will refuse to admit it.
    Except he signalled superiority to his own electorate, while May displayed subservience.
    She lacks completely the necessary tools of public politics.
    THIS.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,122

    dr_spyn said:

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
    Macron was just demonstrating a bit of political skill, by being polite to a buffoon. There are few friends in international politics, just aligned interests.

    The UK's decision to downgrade itself in the international arena has created an opportunity for France which Macron has decided to exploit. Unlike May, Macron firmly established himself as entirely independent of Trump before reaching out to him as the leader of what remains the most powerful country on earth. It's been a very smart play.

    SO, poodle lover.
    The contortions of the left on this issue continue to be a ray of entertainment sunshine during and otherwise gloomy summer.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164

    F1: current forecast is dry qualifying and race, but rain has appeared right after the race, so pay attention to that. Could easily drift earlier.

    Plenty of rain around this morning:

    http://www.netweather.tv/index.cgi?action=radar;sess=
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Jonathan said:

    Good to hear Blair on the radio this morning. Refreshing to hear a centrist. If only our politics could generate a new, fresh one.

    What is a centrist?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,122

    This is the kind of contribution to the Brexit debate that should be listened to:

    http://institute.global/news/brexit-and-centre

    Unfortunately, it was written by Tony Blair so will be dismissed completely by both the Tories and Labour.

    If the EU is willing to consider an accommodation with Britain on freedom of movement it needs to say so publicly at once. Since it would involve numerous decision-makers eating their past words and a radical change of direction, I am highly sceptical, whatever private conversations Tony Blair might have had.
    Indeed - I would love to believe there was something in this but it runs against all the noises we've heard so far - not least from Merkel. Of course with Blair at least there is no history of disingenuity from him - Oh!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557

    Nigelb said:

    This analysis in particular by....Blair of all people is especially spot on:

    Our poll shows people want change and by large numbers and in all three countries. Years of austerity and an acute sense of an elite separated from the rest has led to a belief that the promise of generational progress has ended. This generation believes it has done better than the last. But it does not believe the next generation will do better than them.

    That is the market of anxiety in which the populists peddle quack solutions.

    But the poll also shows that support for the centre stays strong. People will default to populism when a radical centre is not on offer; where it is, they will vote it in, as Macron has shown.

    I am not advocating a new Party. Quite apart from the desirability of such a thing, our political system puts formidable barriers in its path.

    In any event, as a member of the Labour Party of over 40 years standing, I want the Labour Party to capture this ground.

    But there are millions of politically homeless in Britain. They are not going to wander the by-ways of politics, bedding down uncomfortably, forever, not with their country in the dire shape it is in.

    The challenge for the centre is to be the place of changing the status quo not managing it.

    If it does, it still beats everything else.

    What the progressive centre lacks is a radical policy agenda.



    Though the idea that Labour is likely to become the party of the radical centre any time soon is utterly risible.
    I agree, sadly.

    In my exchanges with Corbynistas, I've learned that many of them see centrism as this utterly evil ideology.
    The other possibility he raises - a centrist Tory party with a Ruth Davidson face - is perhaps slightly less unlikely, but only just.
    If both major parties continue in their current direction, the appetite for a new centre will grow (probably not to be satisfied by the LibDems).
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited July 2017
    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:


    I certainly wouldn't describe myself as being a Leadsom, although maybe a Hannan on a good day.
    The Royal Colleges and the DoH have clearly got this on their radar (so to speak!), and the tabloid hysteria and scaremongering adds way more heat than light to the debate.

    The general public will be wondering how the rest of the world's hospitals manage to cope perfectly well outside Euratom.

    Daniel Hannan is the most disingenuous of all politicians. The tyre is hitting the road and he can't hide anymore.

    How do other countries cope without the EU misses the point. It's like saying how do other people cope with not being married to Bill when you are going through a divorce with Bill and you are about to lose your house. We get important things from Euratom that will lose and aren't rapidly replicable. This applies across a large array of agreements. None of it makes sense but we are where we are.
    So what do you propose we do to move forward, given that Brexit is happening?

    Joe Bloggs just sees a bunch of highly paid public servants complaining, rather than getting on with their job of implementing the decision the electorate gave them.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Jonathan said:

    Good to hear Blair on the radio this morning. Refreshing to hear a centrist. If only our politics could generate a new, fresh one.

    Blair cheerleaders club membership has been dwindling since 2005. Losing more members by the day. Sad really, he still wants to be relevant. The reality is different.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876
    felix said:

    dr_spyn said:

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
    Macron was just demonstrating a bit of political skill, by being polite to a buffoon. There are few friends in international politics, just aligned interests.

    The UK's decision to downgrade itself in the international arena has created an opportunity for France which Macron has decided to exploit. Unlike May, Macron firmly established himself as entirely independent of Trump before reaching out to him as the leader of what remains the most powerful country on earth. It's been a very smart play.

    SO, poodle lover.
    The contortions of the left on this issue continue to be a ray of entertainment sunshine during and otherwise gloomy summer.

    What contortions?

  • BudGBudG Posts: 711

    Mr. Meeks, I agree.

    I said some weeks ago that if the EU actually wanted us to remain they'd have to throw some red meat (other countries are not in a position to try and leave as easily [yes, yes, I'm aware it's difficult for us to actually escape the tentacles, but far harder for other countries]) so the risk of a repetition elsewhere is unlikely.

    A few billion added to the rebate could've done it, but a major reform on free movement would but as significant.

    Blair's baggage sinks his arguments with most (or many, at least) people from the outset.

    I said the day after the Referendum that I didn't think we would leave the EU and that a way would be found to justify a second Referendum, probably by some reform of EU FoM rules for all EU countries. Macron said during his election campaign that FoM rules in the EU need to be changed.

    That, to me, seems like the likely way out of this morass. If the EU changed their FoM rules for all countries and not just the UK, then it would be a significant change of circumstances that could be put to the electorate, with some justification, asking them to vote again.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    edited July 2017
    EFTA plus full and permanent removal of freedom of movement rights would be acceptable to me. Would satisfy the EU and most of us on here, I imagine. Combined with domestic reform it would really help the JAMs too.

    This is the kind of contribution to the Brexit debate that should be listened to:

    http://institute.global/news/brexit-and-centre

    Unfortunately, it was written by Tony Blair so will be dismissed completely by both the Tories and Labour.

    If the EU is willing to consider an accommodation with Britain on freedom of movement it needs to say so publicly at once. Since it would involve numerous decision-makers eating their past words and a radical change of direction, I am highly sceptical, whatever private conversations Tony Blair might have had.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876
    felix said:

    dr_spyn said:

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
    Macron was just demonstrating a bit of political skill, by being polite to a buffoon. There are few friends in international politics, just aligned interests.
    In other words he was following May's approach. Of course people like you will refuse to admit it.

    May's first encounter with Trump involved her prostrating at his feet. Macron's involved him swerving to shake Merkel's hand. Macron robustly criticised Trump's decision to pull the US out of the Paris Climate Change accord, May said next to nothing. In short, Macron established his independence from Trump in the eyes of his own electorate and the world, May didn't. This has given him a freedom to manouevre with Trump which May failed to create for herself. That is to France's advantage. If you don't want to recognise that, so be it.

  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    dr_spyn said:

    From Blair's piece:

    "The Macron victory changes the political dynamics of Europe. The members of the Euro zone will integrate economic decision-making. Inevitably, therefore, Europe will comprise an inner and outer circle. Reform is now on Europe’s agenda. The European leaders, certainly from my discussions, are willing to consider changes to accommodate Britain, including around freedom of movement."

    http://institute.global/news/brexit-and-centre

    Blair, Cameron and others did not make it clear where they wanted Britain to be had we remained in the EU. Further integration based on use of the Euro, is a 'reform' which changes UK's relationship with Brussels, is that really in the UK's interest? Brexit can be viewed as an extreme policy, but so too can pursuit of political integration with full monetary, and fiscal union.

    I don't know if joining the Euro is in the UK's interests. Neither do you. Nobody does. What we do know is that had Britain remained in the EU we'd have a lot more chance of influencing what goes on.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,224

    felix said:

    dr_spyn said:

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
    Macron was just demonstrating a bit of political skill, by being polite to a buffoon. There are few friends in international politics, just aligned interests.

    The UK's decision to downgrade itself in the international arena has created an opportunity for France which Macron has decided to exploit. Unlike May, Macron firmly established himself as entirely independent of Trump before reaching out to him as the leader of what remains the most powerful country on earth. It's been a very smart play.

    SO, poodle lover.
    The contortions of the left on this issue continue to be a ray of entertainment sunshine during and otherwise gloomy summer.

    What contortions?

    And what gloomy summer? It's been quite nice in London, and the Cotswolds.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Nigelb said:

    This is the kind of contribution to the Brexit debate that should be listened to:

    http://institute.global/news/brexit-and-centre

    Unfortunately, it was written by Tony Blair so will be dismissed completely by both the Tories and Labour.

    It is...... and it was. Were one able completely to erase his history, Blair would be sounding extremely persuasive on the Today programme right now.

    A further caveat on the link you post - polling research was conducted by Luntz Global Partners...

    a further caveat. its a poll, and unlikely to represent the correct views of the population.
  • MonikerDiCanioMonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792

    felix said:

    dr_spyn said:

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
    Macron was just demonstrating a bit of political skill, by being polite to a buffoon. There are few friends in international politics, just aligned interests.
    In other words he was following May's approach. Of course people like you will refuse to admit it.

    May's first encounter with Trump involved her prostrating at his feet. Macron's involved him swerving to shake Merkel's hand. Macron robustly criticised Trump's decision to pull the US out of the Paris Climate Change accord, May said next to nothing. In short, Macron established his independence from Trump in the eyes of his own electorate and the world, May didn't. This has given him a freedom to manouevre with Trump which May failed to create for herself. That is to France's advantage. If you don't want to recognise that, so be it.

    Macron peacocked briefly but soon submitted to Trump. Pathetique.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876
    Mortimer said:

    EFTA plus full and permanent removal of freedom of movement rights would be acceptable to me. Would satisfy the EU and most of us on here, I imagine. Combined with domestic reform it would really help the JAMs too.

    This is the kind of contribution to the Brexit debate that should be listened to:

    http://institute.global/news/brexit-and-centre

    Unfortunately, it was written by Tony Blair so will be dismissed completely by both the Tories and Labour.

    If the EU is willing to consider an accommodation with Britain on freedom of movement it needs to say so publicly at once. Since it would involve numerous decision-makers eating their past words and a radical change of direction, I am highly sceptical, whatever private conversations Tony Blair might have had.
    The cake and eat it approach is not and has never been on the table. Limitations on the freedom of movement might be possible to do a deal around. A full end is not.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. 86, cheers for that.

    Mr. G, must disagree. Inertia, as Brown showed, is a powerful force. A change on that basis requires swift consensus amongst the EU27, which seems unlikely, then agreement by the UK Parliament, which is possible but also unlikely, then the UK electorate voting and changing their minds (possibly the easiest part of this, although it would also serve to entrench division).
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    felix said:

    dr_spyn said:

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
    Macron was just demonstrating a bit of political skill, by being polite to a buffoon. There are few friends in international politics, just aligned interests.

    The UK's decision to downgrade itself in the international arena has created an opportunity for France which Macron has decided to exploit. Unlike May, Macron firmly established himself as entirely independent of Trump before reaching out to him as the leader of what remains the most powerful country on earth. It's been a very smart play.

    SO, poodle lover.
    The contortions of the left on this issue continue to be a ray of entertainment sunshine during and otherwise gloomy summer.

    What contortions?

    And what gloomy summer? It's been quite nice in London, and the Cotswolds.
    I'm in Watford, so just outside London - summer here has been quite humid. Too humid for it to be nice, tbqh. But it's certainly not been gloomy.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557

    Nigelb said:

    This is the kind of contribution to the Brexit debate that should be listened to:

    http://institute.global/news/brexit-and-centre

    Unfortunately, it was written by Tony Blair so will be dismissed completely by both the Tories and Labour.

    It is...... and it was. Were one able completely to erase his history, Blair would be sounding extremely persuasive on the Today programme right now.

    A further caveat on the link you post - polling research was conducted by Luntz Global Partners...

    a further caveat. its a poll, and unlikely to represent the correct views of the population.
    'Correct' views ?
    An interesting formulation.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    It looked like May had exercised the wisdom of Soloman. She'd appointed her three Brexyest ministers and as a lukewarm Remainer she would oversee it and act as an honest broker. That was how it was designed and it looked foolproof....

    But instead she turned into THE arch Brexiteer. A decision which was catastrophic for both herself and her party and left the country divided and rudderless.

    The question whch will have historians scratching their heads is why? Was it a genuine damascene conversion? Did she come under a Notradamus like influence? After 40 years did she suddenly lose her political nous? Was she taken in by Boris's bus? Was she worried about playing second fiddle to Merkel? Did someone mistake her for a Turk at school?

    It's a mystery.

  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    The EU is never going to make a fundamental concession on freedom of movement. While a number of the national leaders may be willing to offer it, the leaders of the EU institutions won't. They are the ones we negotiate with, per the mandate agreed by the 27.

    I now think Brexit will take place thanks to bureaucratic inertia. The boulder is already rolling!
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Roger said:

    It looked like May had exercised the wisdom of Soloman. She'd appointed her three Brexyest ministers and as a lukewarm Remainer she would oversee it and act as an honest broker. That was how it was designed and it looked foolproof....

    But instead she turned into THE arch Brexiteer. A decision which was catastrophic for both herself and her party and left the country divided and rudderless.

    The question whch will have historians scratching their heads is why? Was it a genuine damascene conversion? Did she come under a Notradamus like influence? After 40 years did she suddenly lose her political nous? Was she taken in by Boris's bus? Was she worried about playing second fiddle to Merkel? Did someone mistake her for a Turk at school?

    It's a mystery.

    Its not a mystery at all, the electorate told her to get us out of the EU
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    RoyalBlue said:

    The EU is never going to make a fundamental concession on freedom of movement. While a number of the national leaders may be willing to offer it, the leaders of the EU institutions won't. They are the ones we negotiate with, per the mandate agreed by the 27.

    I now think Brexit will take place thanks to bureaucratic inertia. The boulder is already rolling!

    It's clear that in EU politics nothing remarkable happens except when you get the 27 politicians in the room. Government by insecure and lacklustre appointees from smaller nations is clearly the main problem within the organisation.

    Change that and everything is up for debate. Keep it, and the project will eventually fail because it will alienate the big powers. It's already alienated us.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876
    edited July 2017
    RoyalBlue said:

    The EU is never going to make a fundamental concession on freedom of movement. While a number of the national leaders may be willing to offer it, the leaders of the EU institutions won't. They are the ones we negotiate with, per the mandate agreed by the 27.

    I now think Brexit will take place thanks to bureaucratic inertia. The boulder is already rolling!

    There are already limits on freedom of movement that neither Labour nor Tory governments have chosen to enforce.

    http://m.huffpost.com/uk/entry/13120104

  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    edited July 2017
    Can we name the two face posters who took the P out of May meeting Trump and now saying how wonderful it is that Macron meeting Trump.

    These posters have lost the plot.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    RoyalBlue said:

    The EU is never going to make a fundamental concession on freedom of movement. While a number of the national leaders may be willing to offer it, the leaders of the EU institutions won't. They are the ones we negotiate with, per the mandate agreed by the 27.

    I now think Brexit will take place thanks to bureaucratic inertia. The boulder is already rolling!

    There are already limits on freedom of movement that neither Labour nor Tory governments have chosen to enforce.

    Seems to me from this morning that your eeyorish approach has taken root; I logged on this morning expecting you be to excited by Blair's suggestion. Are you resigned to deciding any result is poor for Britain now?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,007
    My view is quite simple: with the DUP the Tories have an absolute majority (albeit a small one) in the Commons to carry out their Brexit programme. Both had the same in their manifestos, so the Salisbury convention applies in the Lords for any troublemakers as well.

    This will be enough to see them through at least the next two years. And there are only so many by-elections that can take place within that period - not enough to topple them.

    They need to calm down, get a grip, and focus on doing a professional job.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,122

    felix said:

    dr_spyn said:

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
    Macron was just demonstrating a bit of political skill, by being polite to a buffoon. There are few friends in international politics, just aligned interests.
    In other words he was following May's approach. Of course people like you will refuse to admit it.

    May's first encounter with Trump involved her prostrating at his feet. Macron's involved him swerving to shake Merkel's hand. Macron robustly criticised Trump's decision to pull the US out of the Paris Climate Change accord, May said next to nothing. In short, Macron established his independence from Trump in the eyes of his own electorate and the world, May didn't. This has given him a freedom to manouevre with Trump which May failed to create for herself. That is to France's advantage. If you don't want to recognise that, so be it.

    Hahaha. That is so full of hyperbole and downright untruths it's barely worth a response. Oh and you forgot to repeat how the British Tory party uniquely in the world serves it's own interests above the nation. Oh and where is the image which shows May at Trump's feet - surely you'd want to include it just for the sheer fun!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    FF43 said:



    Daniel Hannan is the most disingenuous of all politicians. The tyre is hitting the road and he can't hide anymore.

    How do other countries cope without the EU misses the point. It's like saying how do other people cope with not being married to Bill when you are going through a divorce with Bill and you are about to lose your house. We get important things from Euratom that will lose and aren't rapidly replicable. This applies across a large array of agreements. None of it makes sense but we are where we are.

    Hannan has been by far one of the most honest politicians about his aims and where he wants to see the UK end up. You just slag him off because he provides a coherent and attractive alternative to the EU which you have no other means of challenging.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,876
    Mortimer said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    The EU is never going to make a fundamental concession on freedom of movement. While a number of the national leaders may be willing to offer it, the leaders of the EU institutions won't. They are the ones we negotiate with, per the mandate agreed by the 27.

    I now think Brexit will take place thanks to bureaucratic inertia. The boulder is already rolling!

    There are already limits on freedom of movement that neither Labour nor Tory governments have chosen to enforce.

    Seems to me from this morning that your eeyorish approach has taken root; I logged on this morning expecting you be to excited by Blair's suggestion. Are you resigned to deciding any result is poor for Britain now?

    Apologies for not sharing your enthusiasm for national decline and impoverishment. It takes all sorts, I suppose. If you do not wish to engage with my arguments, so be it. Life will go on.

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    felix said:

    felix said:

    dr_spyn said:

    felix said:

    Are the Conservatives really trying hard to retoxify themselves or something? First that Tory MP's comments earlier on this week, and now Hammond's alleged remarks. After thinking that he could be a caretaker style leader for the Tories, it seems he could just as well be as bad May.

    Meanwhile, I see that Macron and Trump had the longest handshake ever yesterday.

    The guardian thinks Macron is genius for befriending Trump - maybe 'hypocrisy' is not one of their words.
    Were the Paris police busy holding back the enraged mob of anti Trump protesters?
    Macron was just demonstrating a bit of political skill, by being polite to a buffoon. There are few friends in international politics, just aligned interests.
    In other words he was following May's approach. Of course people like you will refuse to admit it.

    May's first encounter with Trump involved her prostrating at his feet. Macron's involved him swerving to shake Merkel's hand. Macron robustly criticised Trump's decision to pull the US out of the Paris Climate Change accord, May said next to nothing. In short, Macron established his independence from Trump in the eyes of his own electorate and the world, May didn't. This has given him a freedom to manouevre with Trump which May failed to create for herself. That is to France's advantage. If you don't want to recognise that, so be it.

    Hahaha. That is so full of hyperbole and downright untruths it's barely worth a response. Oh and you forgot to repeat how the British Tory party uniquely in the world serves it's own interests above the nation. Oh and where is the image which shows May at Trump's feet - surely you'd want to include it just for the sheer fun!
    It's really quite sweet seeing other partisan posters twisting with the wind over this. Us blues have had to do a bit of uncomfortable twisting recently; nice to know were not alone.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    On Euratom, it seems alot of remain MPs are not facing reality (If I've understood their position correctly).
    The argument has to be to rejoin Euratom, as leaving it was triggered with the serving of article 50. (I'd be in favour of that personally)

    Am I missing something here ?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Pulpstar, it seems not (and somewhat depressing that, if you're right, you have a better grip on the situation than MPs).

  • I said some weeks ago that if the EU actually wanted us to remain they'd have to throw some red meat

    That would be seen as a tacit admission that the UK had legitimate concerns, and that the unpopularity of the EU in the UK isn't just the result of tabloid scare stories.

    That's not something the EU's supporters seem likely to concede any ground on.

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    The EU is never going to make a fundamental concession on freedom of movement. While a number of the national leaders may be willing to offer it, the leaders of the EU institutions won't. They are the ones we negotiate with, per the mandate agreed by the 27.

    I now think Brexit will take place thanks to bureaucratic inertia. The boulder is already rolling!

    There are already limits on freedom of movement that neither Labour nor Tory governments have chosen to enforce.

    Seems to me from this morning that your eeyorish approach has taken root; I logged on this morning expecting you be to excited by Blair's suggestion. Are you resigned to deciding any result is poor for Britain now?

    Apologies for not sharing your enthusiasm for national decline and impoverishment. It takes all sorts, I suppose. If you do not wish to engage with my arguments, so be it. Life will go on.

    Except you're not even enthusiastic about possibilities to keep your beloved weddedneess to the economix EU through the benefits of the EEA. Do you see national decline in our divorce from the schlerotic bureaucracy of the EU?
This discussion has been closed.