Blair may be wrong but why is it delusional to suggest that (say) Angela Merkel has any great objection in principle to the sort of controls her own government imposed until recently?
keine Rosinen herauszupicken
Would you buy a reformed CAP from Mr Blair?
Doesn't that undermine your point? Blair is saying the EU (or country) leaders will make small concessions to keep us in -- like allowing the sort of transitional controls they had till 2011 or, indeed, making tweaks to CAP (and notice we no longer hear of wine lakes and butter mountains).
Well I never not a single labour voter mentioned Brexit despite a handful of lefties on here droning on all day about it.
I'm beginning to realise the penny will never drop for you poor souls.
Anti-Tory, anti-Theresa May = anti-Tory Brexit
More delusion. Just accept it mate, the tories are obsessed with Brexit, your lot don't give a toss, never have.
My lot absolutely do care about Brexit. The Labour leadership doesn't, I grant.
Well I'm afraid to say your lot are a small minority - you have read the thread header as well as previous similar ones?
Anti-Tories, anti-Mays are a decent sized minority.
Of course, the anti tories have always been there, always will, its nothing to do with Brexit. Only you and a few others on here need treatment for your obsession. I'm opening a Priory type home specialising in Brexit rehab.
I fully accept the referendum result, even though I regret it. What terrifies me is the complete mess the government is making of the withdrawal process and the damage its incompetence will cause.
You need to relax, you are becoming increasingly shrill and hyperbolic, every survey shows that nobody is either listening or concerned. You are a doom merchant, everybody avoids them.
Well I never not a single labour voter mentioned Brexit despite a handful of lefties on here droning on all day about it.
I'm beginning to realise the penny will never drop for you poor souls.
Anti-Tory, anti-Theresa May = anti-Tory Brexit
More delusion. Just accept it mate, the tories are obsessed with Brexit, your lot don't give a toss, never have.
My lot absolutely do care about Brexit. The Labour leadership doesn't, I grant.
Well I'm afraid to say your lot are a small minority - you have read the thread header as well as previous similar ones?
Anti-Tories, anti-Mays are a decent sized minority.
Of course, the anti tories have always been there, always will, its nothing to do with Brexit. Only you and a few others on here need treatment for your obsession. I'm opening a Priory type home specialising in Brexit rehab.
I fully accept the referendum result, even though I regret it. What terrifies me is the complete mess the government is making of the withdrawal process and the damage its incompetence will cause.
You need to relax, you are becoming increasingly shrill and hyperbolic, every survey shows that nobody is either listening or concerned. You are a doom merchant, everybody avoids them.
Yes, I get that you do not like my views. As you are a Brexit fundamentalist that is no surprise. But the fact is that the government is hopelessly split and has no coherent Brexit strategy. That is very bad news for the UK's prospects.
Blair may be wrong but why is it delusional to suggest that (say) Angela Merkel has any great objection in principle to the sort of controls her own government imposed until recently?
keine Rosinen herauszupicken
Would you buy a reformed CAP from Mr Blair?
Doesn't that undermine your point? Blair is saying the EU (or country) leaders will make small concessions to keep us in -- like allowing the sort of transitional controls they had till 2011 or, indeed, making tweaks to CAP (and notice we no longer hear of wine lakes and butter mountains).
The point is, Blair gave away a large chunk of 'le cheque Anglaise' in return for fundamental reform of the CAP - only the first part of the deal - giving up a chunk of our rebate - went through.......
Accuses the Tories of wanting an anti-UK Brexit for ideological reasons, while they are the patriots.
Amazing. Trotskyite's obviously have no love for ideology, while Tories ae reading their little blue book. I think I've heard it all now. When I were't lad, it were opposite (for Mr Dancer).
Blair may be wrong but why is it delusional to suggest that (say) Angela Merkel has any great objection in principle to the sort of controls her own government imposed until recently?
keine Rosinen herauszupicken
Would you buy a reformed CAP from Mr Blair?
Doesn't that undermine your point? Blair is saying the EU (or country) leaders will make small concessions to keep us in -- like allowing the sort of transitional controls they had till 2011 or, indeed, making tweaks to CAP (and notice we no longer hear of wine lakes and butter mountains).
That's because the EU uses their own version of D Notices to prevent the press from accurately reporting what's going on.
So I think we can assume that Hammond did make the comment about the public sector being overpaid but perhaps the comment about women being train drivers wasn't true. That was very strong attack on the unions implying that they are responsible for 95% of train drivers being male.
So I think we can assume that Hammond did make the comment about the public sector being overpaid but perhaps the comment about women being train drivers wasn't true. That was very strong attack on the unions implying that they are responsible for 95% of train drivers being male.
I don't like Hammond's politics, but he's an impressive performer. He answers the questions he's asked.
So I think we can assume that Hammond did make the comment about the public sector being overpaid but perhaps the comment about women being train drivers wasn't true. That was very strong attack on the unions implying that they are responsible for 95% of train drivers being male.
I don't like Hammond's politics, but he's an impressive performer. He answers the questions he's asked.
Yes, I don't like him (probably for different reasons to you!), but I don't get why people say that replacing May with him would be pointless. I think he's a very different type of politician.
In one school she visited she was horrified — and said parents would be “surprised” — to see a class of 11-year-olds taken through GCSE mark schemes instead of being taught geography.
In my day, we did not do this.
One reason exam pass rates went up year on year is that teachers and pupils became far more sophisticated in exam technique. We coffin-dodgers were expected to learn maths, say, or history, and then answer whatever questions were thrown at us.
These days, teachers teach narrowly to the test and pupils are drilled into how to analyse questions to provide exactly what is demanded -- even if they know nothing. If the question is about triangles but you can remember neither geometry nor trigonometry, then before skipping to the next question, at least draw a flaming triangle because there will be 1 or 2 marks (out of 20) for that tiny part of the full, correct answer.
One reason for doing this is that the exams are returning to what they were 30 years ago (exams count, coursework is only a minor percentage of your final mark). Now I don't agree with what the teacher did but it was an absolute first class display of the displeasure of that teacher and whoever ensured that the head of Ofsted saw that lesson..
Blair may be wrong but why is it delusional to suggest that (say) Angela Merkel has any great objection in principle to the sort of controls her own government imposed until recently?
keine Rosinen herauszupicken
Would you buy a reformed CAP from Mr Blair?
Doesn't that undermine your point? Blair is saying the EU (or country) leaders will make small concessions to keep us in -- like allowing the sort of transitional controls they had till 2011 or, indeed, making tweaks to CAP (and notice we no longer hear of wine lakes and butter mountains).
That's because the EU uses their own version of D Notices to prevent the press from accurately reporting what's going on.
What up sheeple.
Do the wine lakes and butter mountains still exist ?
If there is some consolation in the present chaos today's mature discussion with Hammond on Marr and the known serious politician that is Theresa May maybe it is not all doom and gloom
If their is some consolation in the present chaos today's mature discussion with Hammond on Marr and the known serious politician that is Theresa May maybe it is not all doom and gloom
Is this another thread where numerous posters miss the point that only the main reason was asked for?
What stands out for me is how much of the Conservative vote was anti-Labour or anti-Corbyn. The equivalent among Labour supporters is much lower. Labour have serious brand problems.
What gave it away, the fact the Labour party under Corbyn still comfortabel lost, or the fact that May still ranks as a better PM than Corbyn despite Labours current poll lead?
If their is some consolation in the present chaos today's mature discussion with Hammond on Marr and the known serious politician that is Theresa May maybe it is not all doom and gloom
If only they were still talking to each other.
Theresa May was recently reported as being close to Hammond and Davis.
So I think we can assume that Hammond did make the comment about the public sector being overpaid but perhaps the comment about women being train drivers wasn't true. That was very strong attack on the unions implying that they are responsible for 95% of train drivers being male.
I don't like Hammond's politics, but he's an impressive performer. He answers the questions he's asked.
Yes, I don't like him (probably for different reasons to you!), but I don't get why people say that replacing May with him would be pointless. I think he's a very different type of politician.
He is on a different level to May and most of the rest of the cabinet. A serious grown-up who is prepared to engage on the basis that voters are too.
Indeed I was thinking yeterday that the middle class's traditional support for the Tories rests principally on trusting their safer hands on the economy and otherwise wanting to be left alone. Consequently the Tories get in when they focus in economic competence, and get turfed out whenever Tories delude themselves that the support they get indicates desire for all the other Tory-political stuff, which in reality few people want. Labour and Tory being pretty much level in middle class support right now is striking.
The Tories' biggest problem right now is that their political obsession with the EU has once again led them to wander away from managing the economy.
It`s actually a problem inherent in the voting system. The myth is that, if one party gets an overall majority of sets, this somehow proves that most electors endorse all the policies that were in that party`s manifesto.
If a voter this time round cast his vote in favour of the Conservative candidate on the grounds that they represented greater economic stability - strange in itself, since their Brexit mania is set to wreck the economy - this certainly does not mean that the country wanted the reintroduction of grammar schools, or the selling off of the NHS to American interests.
What we need is a voting system which allows people to discriminate more among an assortment of candidates, with different, overlapping views. The case of Mr Smithson`s colleagues voting Labour in Vauxhall in order to oppose Brexit is a case in point.
Indeed I was thinking yeterday that the middle class's traditional support for the Tories rests principally on trusting their safer hands on the economy and otherwise wanting to be left alone. Consequently the Tories get in when they focus in economic competence, and get turfed out whenever Tories delude themselves that the support they get indicates desire for all the other Tory-political stuff, which in reality few people want. Labour and Tory being pretty much level in middle class support right now is striking.
The Tories' biggest problem right now is that their political obsession with the EU has once again led them to wander away from managing the economy.
It`s actually a problem inherent in the voting system. The myth is that, if one party gets an overall majority of sets, this somehow proves that most electors endorse all the policies that were in that party`s manifesto.
If a voter this time round cast his vote in favour of the Conservative candidate on the grounds that they represented greater economic stability - strange in itself, since their Brexit mania is set to wreck the economy - this certainly does not mean that the country wanted the reintroduction of grammar schools, or the selling off of the NHS to American interests.
What we need is a voting system which allows people to discriminate more among an assortment of candidates, with different, overlapping views. The case of Mr Smithson`s colleagues voting Labour in Vauxhall in order to oppose Brexit is a case in point.
Yes, STV was always the right answer. Sadly Monday's promised thread will probably miss the goal again.
In one school she visited she was horrified — and said parents would be “surprised” — to see a class of 11-year-olds taken through GCSE mark schemes instead of being taught geography.
In my day, we did not do this.
One reason exam pass rates went up year on year is that teachers and pupils became far more sophisticated in exam technique. We coffin-dodgers were expected to learn maths, say, or history, and then answer whatever questions were thrown at us.
These days, teachers teach narrowly to the test and pupils are drilled into how to analyse questions to provide exactly what is demanded -- even if they know nothing. If the question is about triangles but you can remember neither geometry nor trigonometry, then before skipping to the next question, at least draw a flaming triangle because there will be 1 or 2 marks (out of 20) for that tiny part of the full, correct answer.
One reason for doing this is that the exams are returning to what they were 30 years ago (exams count, coursework is only a minor percentage of your final mark). Now I don't agree with what the teacher did but it was an absolute first class display of the displeasure of that teacher and whoever ensured that the head of Ofsted saw that lesson..
By chance yesterday, I stumbled upon a biology revision web site written by a teacher who advised pupils to concentrate on topics A, B and C because D, E and F had already been covered on the first paper.
Yes - some of the M/C altruism is really rather convenient.
It's in everyone's interests that the state redistributes wealth to ensure everyone has a decent stanard if living that includes access to good public services.
Very interesting polling. Suggests Brexit not that significant for Labour voters?
And also that the manifesto and policies were a clear positive for Labour. Logically then they should keep them for next time around.
All parties rushed their manifestos because of the snap election, so none were as fettled as they should be. It is quite likely that Labour will be better prepared next time.
I cannot see May enjoying the conference season. Surely she is toasted enough already?
I think she will hang on but hard to tell. Not convinced any of the Tories really want to take over just now?
King Cole, Blair's an anti-Cassandra. He was listened to on WMD, and action taken, and he was wholly wrong.
Edited extra bit: hope your medical situation is improving, incidentally.
Thank you. And Mr 13. There will be no ‘improvement’ of course for some while, until the course of treatment is completed and the results can be assessed. That’s the problem with this sort of disease; it’s not something which can be patched up or cut out and the result made visible to all! So KBO is the order of the day!
In one school she visited she was horrified — and said parents would be “surprised” — to see a class of 11-year-olds taken through GCSE mark schemes instead of being taught geography.
In my day, we did not do this.
One reason exam pass rates went up year on year is that teachers and pupils became far more sophisticated in exam technique. We coffin-dodgers were expected to learn maths, say, or history, and then answer whatever questions were thrown at us.
These days, teachers teach narrowly to the test and pupils are drilled into how to analyse questions to provide exactly what is demanded -- even if they know nothing. If the question is about triangles but you can remember neither geometry nor trigonometry, then before skipping to the next question, at least draw a flaming triangle because there will be 1 or 2 marks (out of 20) for that tiny part of the full, correct answer.
One reason for doing this is that the exams are returning to what they were 30 years ago (exams count, coursework is only a minor percentage of your final mark). Now I don't agree with what the teacher did but it was an absolute first class display of the displeasure of that teacher and whoever ensured that the head of Ofsted saw that lesson..
By chance yesterday, I stumbled upon a biology revision web site written by a teacher who advised pupils to concentrate on topics A, B and C because D, E and F had already been covered on the first paper.
Back in the 40’s we were drilled in the sort or answers required to pass the 11+. I can recall giving the ‘wrong’ answer to a question and arguing with the teacher.
Yes - some of the M/C altruism is really rather convenient.
Well worth a read, even if his hint of some sort of far right or far-left counter-reaction appears far fetched.
I'm not convinced Hugo Rifkind's article is not just a more sophisticated version of what we often see here. Voting Conservative is so self-evidently correct that the only conceivable reason people vote for the other lot is that they have been bribed. As political analysis, it does not get you very far.
Yes - some of the M/C altruism is really rather convenient.
It's in everyone's interests that the state redistributes wealth to ensure everyone has a decent stanard if living that includes access to good public services.
Of course - except too often when it comes down to it people much prefer other people's wealth distributed to them! The reality is that is a very large amount of redistribution which would have to include a hit on the m/c which they do not seem to be so keen on. Much easier to stick with the myth that all the money could come from greedy bankers, Philip Green and some footballers.
Yes - some of the M/C altruism is really rather convenient.
Well worth a read, even if his hint of some sort of far right or far-left counter-reaction appears far fetched.
I'm not convinced Hugo Rifkind's article is not just a more sophisticated version of what we often see here. Voting Conservative is so self-evidently correct that the only conceivable reason people vote for the other lot is that they have been bribed. As political analysis, it does not get you very far.
I took his argument more as a challenge to Labour - who are getting pushed into more and more positions that actually favour better off people (reference the IFS analysis of its recent manifesto compared, say, to the more redistributive LibDem proposals) - than as any reason to vote Conservative. Rifkind indeed says himself that the Tories have been stung by their ham fisted first attempt to address the issue in relation to care.
Yes - some of the M/C altruism is really rather convenient.
It's in everyone's interests that the state redistributes wealth to ensure everyone has a decent stanard if living that includes access to good public services.
Of course - except too often when it comes down to it people much prefer other people's wealth distributed to them! The reality is that is a very large amount of redistribution which would have to include a hit on the m/c which they do not seem to be so keen on. Much easier to stick with the myth that all the money could come from greedy bankers, Philip Green and some footballers.
The simple fact is that there has never been more wealth in the UK. A lot of very rich people and cash-rich companies choose to keep money they could never hope to spend offshore rather than see some of it redistributed via taxation. That's what leads to growing support for the kibd of left wing populism that Corbyn Labour represents.
"the horticulture sector is about to be launched right into the Brexit slurry pit with everyone else, thanks to some naïve and ignorant misconceptions about migrant workers."
Very interesting polling. Suggests Brexit not that significant for Labour voters?
And also that the manifesto and policies were a clear positive for Labour. Logically then they should keep them for next time around.
All parties rushed their manifestos because of the snap election, so none were as fettled as they should be. It is quite likely that Labour will be better prepared next time.
I cannot see May enjoying the conference season. Surely she is toasted enough already?
I think she will hang on but hard to tell. Not convinced any of the Tories really want to take over just now?
Most Tories want Brexit come what may (ha!) All don't want Corbyn. Keeping things as they are delivers these two objectives. They will accept a zombie.
What is a coherent Brexit strategy? UK laws for UK people and the best economic deal available on those terms.
That is coherent. Now what's the problem?
You've described an outcome, not a plan.
It's not really an outcome or a plan. It's a constraint or, if you will, a negotiating guideline. A plan would resolve the trade-offs. "This means that". They haven't spelt it out because the constraint is not widely accepted and in fact contradicts the have your cake and eat it promise of the Leave campaign. "UK laws for UK people and the best economic deal available on those terms" at its most literal drastically closes down the options when most people want and expected continuity.
Yes - some of the M/C altruism is really rather convenient.
It's in everyone's interests that the state redistributes wealth to ensure everyone has a decent stanard if living that includes access to good public services.
Of course - except too often when it comes down to it people much prefer other people's wealth distributed to them! The reality is that is a very large amount of redistribution which would have to include a hit on the m/c which they do not seem to be so keen on. Much easier to stick with the myth that all the money could come from greedy bankers, Philip Green and some footballers.
The simple fact is that there has never been more wealth in the UK. A lot of very rich people and cash-rich companies choose to keep money they could never hope to spend offshore rather than see some of it redistributed via taxation. That's what leads to growing support for the kibd of left wing populism that Corbyn Labour represents.
And a lot more m/c people are very happy to let people on low incomes pay for their children's university fees, the health service...... and other universal benefits and hope that no-one notices.
Yes - some of the M/C altruism is really rather convenient.
Well worth a read, even if his hint of some sort of far right or far-left counter-reaction appears far fetched.
I'm not convinced Hugo Rifkind's article is not just a more sophisticated version of what we often see here. Voting Conservative is so self-evidently correct that the only conceivable reason people vote for the other lot is that they have been bribed. As political analysis, it does not get you very far.
Getting the m/c to question their true motives for their champagne socialism is not easy. However, the nannies and cleaners won't pay for themselves.....any more than for the villa in Tuscany...
"the horticulture sector is about to be launched right into the Brexit slurry pit with everyone else, thanks to some naïve and ignorant misconceptions about migrant workers." - a scottish friend's two sons, living in a village just outside Edinburgh, tried for jobs in a local mushroom farm - they were rejected as "they didn't speak the language". Maybe that attitude is going to cause problems now for that farm, and the problems will be well deserved.
Yes - some of the M/C altruism is really rather convenient.
It's in everyone's interests that the state redistributes wealth to ensure everyone has a decent stanard if living that includes access to good public services.
Of course - except too often when it comes down to it people much prefer other people's wealth distributed to them! The reality is that is a very large amount of redistribution which would have to include a hit on the m/c which they do not seem to be so keen on. Much easier to stick with the myth that all the money could come from greedy bankers, Philip Green and some footballers.
The simple fact is that there has never been more wealth in the UK. A lot of very rich people and cash-rich companies choose to keep money they could never hope to spend offshore rather than see some of it redistributed via taxation. That's what leads to growing support for the kibd of left wing populism that Corbyn Labour represents.
The other simple fact is that there has never been more debt in the UK. Its something Corbyn will never address, which is why Labour govts always ruin the economy
Thanks for posting that, it was a very interesting albeit long read.
Being unfamiliar with the publication at first, I assumed it was a hard-right Breitbart wannabe, on getting to the end I discovered the article was written by an esteemed author, researcher and teacher, and the publication was a moderate, centrist international relations journal.
A very well written and cogent article that demonstrates the impact the migration crisis is having on the fabric of Western society.
Yes - some of the M/C altruism is really rather convenient.
It's in everyone's interests that the state redistributes wealth to ensure everyone has a decent stanard if living that includes access to good public services.
Of course - except too often when it comes down to it people much prefer other people's wealth distributed to them! The reality is that is a very large amount of redistribution which would have to include a hit on the m/c which they do not seem to be so keen on. Much easier to stick with the myth that all the money could come from greedy bankers, Philip Green and some footballers.
The simple fact is that there has never been more wealth in the UK. A lot of very rich people and cash-rich companies choose to keep money they could never hope to spend offshore rather than see some of it redistributed via taxation. That's what leads to growing support for the kibd of left wing populism that Corbyn Labour represents.
And a lot more m/c people are very happy to let people on low incomes pay for their children's university fees, the health service...... and other universal benefits and hope that no-one notices.
They should move to Scotland and the SNP government would give them "free" prescriptions too.....
Is this another thread where numerous posters miss the point that only the main reason was asked for?
What stands out for me is how much of the Conservative vote was anti-Labour or anti-Corbyn. The equivalent among Labour supporters is much lower. Labour have serious brand problems.
I'm not sure that's the right conclusion. The REALLY key point that people miss about electoral politics is that it is zero sum. People are finding reasons to vote for Labour and not the Conservatives in about equal numbers with those that find reasons to vote for the Conservatives and not Labour.
Yes - some of the M/C altruism is really rather convenient.
It's in everyone's interests that the state redistributes wealth to ensure everyone has a decent stanard if living that includes access to good public services.
Of course - except too often when it comes down to it people much prefer other people's wealth distributed to them! The reality is that is a very large amount of redistribution which would have to include a hit on the m/c which they do not seem to be so keen on. Much easier to stick with the myth that all the money could come from greedy bankers, Philip Green and some footballers.
The simple fact is that there has never been more wealth in the UK. A lot of very rich people and cash-rich companies choose to keep money they could never hope to spend offshore rather than see some of it redistributed via taxation. That's what leads to growing support for the kibd of left wing populism that Corbyn Labour represents.
And a lot more m/c people are very happy to let people on low incomes pay for their children's university fees, the health service...... and other universal benefits and hope that no-one notices.
So what's the solution? Higher taxes for the middle class or lower spending on services? I know which I'd go for.
Average annual income for a lollipop lady is £3187,bloody overpaid public servants.How dare they demand such an extravagent lifestyle when there always the Foodbank?
Blair may be wrong but why is it delusional to suggest that (say) Angela Merkel has any great objection in principle to the sort of controls her own government imposed until recently?
keine Rosinen herauszupicken
Would you buy a reformed CAP from Mr Blair?
Doesn't that undermine your point? Blair is saying the EU (or country) leaders will make small concessions to keep us in -- like allowing the sort of transitional controls they had till 2011 or, indeed, making tweaks to CAP (and notice we no longer hear of wine lakes and butter mountains).
That's because the EU uses their own version of D Notices to prevent the press from accurately reporting what's going on.
What up sheeple.
Do the wine lakes and butter mountains still exist ?
Surplus crap wine is used to produce industrial ethanol.
Blair may be wrong but why is it delusional to suggest that (say) Angela Merkel has any great objection in principle to the sort of controls her own government imposed until recently?
keine Rosinen herauszupicken
Would you buy a reformed CAP from Mr Blair?
Doesn't that undermine your point? Blair is saying the EU (or country) leaders will make small concessions to keep us in -- like allowing the sort of transitional controls they had till 2011 or, indeed, making tweaks to CAP (and notice we no longer hear of wine lakes and butter mountains).
That's because the EU uses their own version of D Notices to prevent the press from accurately reporting what's going on.
What up sheeple.
Do the wine lakes and butter mountains still exist ?
Surplus crap wine is used to produce industrial ethanol.
Blair may be wrong but why is it delusional to suggest that (say) Angela Merkel has any great objection in principle to the sort of controls her own government imposed until recently?
keine Rosinen herauszupicken
Would you buy a reformed CAP from Mr Blair?
Doesn't that undermine your point? Blair is saying the EU (or country) leaders will make small concessions to keep us in -- like allowing the sort of transitional controls they had till 2011 or, indeed, making tweaks to CAP (and notice we no longer hear of wine lakes and butter mountains).
That's because the EU uses their own version of D Notices to prevent the press from accurately reporting what's going on.
What up sheeple.
Do the wine lakes and butter mountains still exist ?
Surplus crap wine is used to produce industrial ethanol.
Or sold in Calais to Brits.
Not if we leave the customs union.
Back to the old days of two and a half bottles of wine and half a bottle of spirits per person?
Very interesting polling. Suggests Brexit not that significant for Labour voters?
And also that the manifesto and policies were a clear positive for Labour. Logically then they should keep them for next time around.
All parties rushed their manifestos because of the snap election, so none were as fettled as they should be. It is quite likely that Labour will be better prepared next time.
I cannot see May enjoying the conference season. Surely she is toasted enough already?
The next Labour manifesto will be much further to the left than the last one. The party leadership has decided that on 8th June 12.8 million people voted for socialism. I am not sure that's the right call.
Agreed. Take the Labour position on tuition fees, its already been tried and found to have failed in Scotland. Something worth remembering.
Ha Ha Ha , Tories still spitting feathers that SNP policy is far superior and actually works, still prefer to rob the poor.
Blair may be wrong but why is it delusional to suggest that (say) Angela Merkel has any great objection in principle to the sort of controls her own government imposed until recently?
keine Rosinen herauszupicken
Would you buy a reformed CAP from Mr Blair?
Doesn't that undermine your point? Blair is saying the EU (or country) leaders will make small concessions to keep us in -- like allowing the sort of transitional controls they had till 2011 or, indeed, making tweaks to CAP (and notice we no longer hear of wine lakes and butter mountains).
That's because the EU uses their own version of D Notices to prevent the press from accurately reporting what's going on.
What up sheeple.
Do the wine lakes and butter mountains still exist ?
Surplus crap wine is used to produce industrial ethanol.
Or sold in Calais to Brits.
Not if we leave the customs union.
A boost for British booze retailers. Another Brexit bonus.
Is this another thread where numerous posters miss the point that only the main reason was asked for?
What stands out for me is how much of the Conservative vote was anti-Labour or anti-Corbyn. The equivalent among Labour supporters is much lower. Labour have serious brand problems.
What gave it away, the fact the Labour party under Corbyn still comfortabel lost, or the fact that May still ranks as a better PM than Corbyn despite Labours current poll lead?
Oh dear , CCHQ propaganda at all times. Do you ever have an original thought. May is absolute crap , we have yet to know if Corbyn could be so poor or will ever get the chance to make as big a hash of it as St Theresa has, utter puerile Tory guesswork on your part.
Blair may be wrong but why is it delusional to suggest that (say) Angela Merkel has any great objection in principle to the sort of controls her own government imposed until recently?
keine Rosinen herauszupicken
Would you buy a reformed CAP from Mr Blair?
Doesn't that undermine your point? Blair is saying the EU (or country) leaders will make small concessions to keep us in -- like allowing the sort of transitional controls they had till 2011 or, indeed, making tweaks to CAP (and notice we no longer hear of wine lakes and butter mountains).
That's because the EU uses their own version of D Notices to prevent the press from accurately reporting what's going on.
What up sheeple.
Do the wine lakes and butter mountains still exist ?
Surplus crap wine is used to produce industrial ethanol.
Or sold in Calais to Brits.
I knew about the industrial ethanol and now that I think about it I see more than a few mobile butter mountains wobbling about the streets. And there will be many more sat of their lard arse mountains.
Yes - some of the M/C altruism is really rather convenient.
It's in everyone's interests that the state redistributes wealth to ensure everyone has a decent stanard if living that includes access to good public services.
Of course - except too often when it comes down to it people much prefer other people's wealth distributed to them! The reality is that is a very large amount of redistribution which would have to include a hit on the m/c which they do not seem to be so keen on. Much easier to stick with the myth that all the money could come from greedy bankers, Philip Green and some footballers.
The simple fact is that there has never been more wealth in the UK. A lot of very rich people and cash-rich companies choose to keep money they could never hope to spend offshore rather than see some of it redistributed via taxation. That's what leads to growing support for the kibd of left wing populism that Corbyn Labour represents.
And a lot more m/c people are very happy to let people on low incomes pay for their children's university fees, the health service...... and other universal benefits and hope that no-one notices.
They should move to Scotland and the SNP government would give them "free" prescriptions too.....
Not happy with avoiding tax you have green cheese syndrome over prescriptions as well, greedy troughing Tories , just cannot get enough of other people's money to satisfy themselves.
Indeed I was thinking yeterday that the middle class's traditional support for the Tories rests principally on trusting their safer hands on the economy and otherwise wanting to be left alone. Consequently the Tories get in when they focus in economic competence, and get turfed out whenever Tories delude themselves that the support they get indicates desire for all the other Tory-political stuff, which in reality few people want. Labour and Tory being pretty much level in middle class support right now is striking.
The Tories' biggest problem right now is that their political obsession with the EU has once again led them to wander away from managing the economy.
It`s actually a problem inherent in the voting system. The myth is that, if one party gets an overall majority of sets, this somehow proves that most electors endorse all the policies that were in that party`s manifesto.
If a voter this time round cast his vote in favour of the Conservative candidate on the grounds that they represented greater economic stability - strange in itself, since their Brexit mania is set to wreck the economy - this certainly does not mean that the country wanted the reintroduction of grammar schools, or the selling off of the NHS to American interests.
What we need is a voting system which allows people to discriminate more among an assortment of candidates, with different, overlapping views. The case of Mr Smithson`s colleagues voting Labour in Vauxhall in order to oppose Brexit is a case in point.
Yes, STV was always the right answer. Sadly Monday's promised thread will probably miss the goal again.
Indeed, yes. I gather that TSE is something of an expert on the subject of the AV, though he is somewhat shy about discussing it nowadays. But does he know anything at all about STV? That is the question on everybody`s lips.
Blair may be wrong but why is it delusional to suggest that (say) Angela Merkel has any great objection in principle to the sort of controls her own government imposed until recently?
keine Rosinen herauszupicken
Would you buy a reformed CAP from Mr Blair?
Doesn't that undermine your point? Blair is saying the EU (or country) leaders will make small concessions to keep us in -- like allowing the sort of transitional controls they had till 2011 or, indeed, making tweaks to CAP (and notice we no longer hear of wine lakes and butter mountains).
That's because the EU uses their own version of D Notices to prevent the press from accurately reporting what's going on.
What up sheeple.
Do the wine lakes and butter mountains still exist ?
Surplus crap wine is used to produce industrial ethanol.
Or sold in Calais to Brits.
I knew about the industrial ethanol and now that I think about it I see more than a few mobile butter mountains wobbling about the streets. And there will be many more sat of their lard arse mountains.
When we used to eat a lot more butter and lard, we were a lot thinner.
Could Boris Johnson's love life block his route to Number 10?
'Tory bible' editor claims the ever-aspiring Foreign Secretary could be 'exposed' after ruthless rivals begin 'shadow leadership campaign' to take over from Theresa May
Could Boris Johnson's love life block his route to Number 10?
'Tory bible' editor claims the ever-aspiring Foreign Secretary could be 'exposed' after ruthless rivals begin 'shadow leadership campaign' to take over from Theresa May
Yes - some of the M/C altruism is really rather convenient.
It's in everyone's interests that the state redistributes wealth to ensure everyone has a decent stanard if living that includes access to good public services.
Of course - except too often when it comes down to it people much prefer other people's wealth distributed to them! The reality is that is a very large amount of redistribution which would have to include a hit on the m/c which they do not seem to be so keen on. Much easier to stick with the myth that all the money could come from greedy bankers, Philip Green and some footballers.
The simple fact is that there has never been more wealth in the UK. A lot of very rich people and cash-rich companies choose to keep money they could never hope to spend offshore rather than see some of it redistributed via taxation. That's what leads to growing support for the kibd of left wing populism that Corbyn Labour represents.
And a lot more m/c people are very happy to let people on low incomes pay for their children's university fees, the health service...... and other universal benefits and hope that no-one notices.
So what's the solution? Higher taxes for the middle class or lower spending on services? I know which I'd go for.
Oh indeed - I agree but I would get rid of some universal benefits including some for pensioners to ease the pain. One area in health of interest is dentistry. Here in Spain it is outside the NHS apart from children. Interestingly the private charges are generally the same as the UK NHS or cheaper - my implants here would have cost 50% more in the UK!
Very interesting polling. Suggests Brexit not that significant for Labour voters?
And also that the manifesto and policies were a clear positive for Labour. Logically then they should keep them for next time around.
All parties rushed their manifestos because of the snap election, so none were as fettled as they should be. It is quite likely that Labour will be better prepared next time.
I cannot see May enjoying the conference season. Surely she is toasted enough already?
The next Labour manifesto will be much further to the left than the last one. The party leadership has decided that on 8th June 12.8 million people voted for socialism. I am not sure that's the right call.
Agreed. Take the Labour position on tuition fees, its already been tried and found to have failed in Scotland. Something worth remembering.
SNP policy is far superior
Well, it is if you want free University education for the middle class paid for by less access for the poor.....
Average annual income for a lollipop lady is £3187,bloody overpaid public servants.How dare they demand such an extravagent lifestyle when there always the Foodbank?
That seems rather excessive seeing as they should be doing 400 hours of work per year at most.
There are doubtless public sector workers who are underpaid but I'd chose a better example than lollipop ladies if I were you.
Yes - some of the M/C altruism is really rather convenient.
It's in everyone's interests that the state redistributes wealth to ensure everyone has a decent stanard if living that includes access to good public services.
Of course - except too often when it comes down to it people much prefer other people's wealth distributed to them! The reality is that is a very large amount of redistribution which would have to include a hit on the m/c which they do not seem to be so keen on. Much easier to stick with the myth that all the money could come from greedy bankers, Philip Green and some footballers.
The simple fact is that there has never been more wealth in the UK. A lot of very rich people and cash-rich companies choose to keep money they could never hope to spend offshore rather than see some of it redistributed via taxation. That's what leads to growing support for the kibd of left wing populism that Corbyn Labour represents.
And a lot more m/c people are very happy to let people on low incomes pay for their children's university fees, the health service...... and other universal benefits and hope that no-one notices.
So what's the solution? Higher taxes for the middle class or lower spending on services? I know which I'd go for.
Oh indeed - I agree but I would get rid of some universal benefits including some for pensioners to ease the pain. One area in health of interest is dentistry. Here in Spain it is outside the NHS apart from children. Interestingly the private charges are generally the same as the UK NHS or cheaper - my implants here would have cost 50% more in the UK!
When dentists are earning £50k for NHS work a year after graduation, we can see why.
Big John was fond of screaming "liar, liar" at the tories before the last election
What say you now John?
But Labour never promised to write off student debt already accumulated at the election. Corbyn said he would 'look at it' but that falls far short of a firm pledge.
Could Boris Johnson's love life block his route to Number 10?
'Tory bible' editor claims the ever-aspiring Foreign Secretary could be 'exposed' after ruthless rivals begin 'shadow leadership campaign' to take over from Theresa May
Blair may be wrong but why is it delusional to suggest that (say) Angela Merkel has any great objection in principle to the sort of controls her own government imposed until recently?
keine Rosinen herauszupicken
Would you buy a reformed CAP from Mr Blair?
Doesn't that undermine your point? Blair is saying the EU (or country) leaders will make small concessions to keep us in -- like allowing the sort of transitional controls they had till 2011 or, indeed, making tweaks to CAP (and notice we no longer hear of wine lakes and butter mountains).
That's because the EU uses their own version of D Notices to prevent the press from accurately reporting what's going on.
What up sheeple.
Do the wine lakes and butter mountains still exist ?
Surplus crap wine is used to produce industrial ethanol.
Or sold in Calais to Brits.
I knew about the industrial ethanol and now that I think about it I see more than a few mobile butter mountains wobbling about the streets. And there will be many more sat of their lard arse mountains.
When we used to eat a lot more butter and lard, we were a lot thinner.
Increased sugar and a change in lifestyles are major factors.
Could Boris Johnson's love life block his route to Number 10?
'Tory bible' editor claims the ever-aspiring Foreign Secretary could be 'exposed' after ruthless rivals begin 'shadow leadership campaign' to take over from Theresa May
Yes - some of the M/C altruism is really rather convenient.
It's in everyone's interests that the state redistributes wealth to ensure everyone has a decent stanard if living that includes access to good public services.
Of course - except too often when it comes down to it people much prefer other people's wealth distributed to them! The reality is that is a very large amount of redistribution which would have to include a hit on the m/c which they do not seem to be so keen on. Much easier to stick with the myth that all the money could come from greedy bankers, Philip Green and some footballers.
The simple fact is that there has never been more wealth in the UK. A lot of very rich people and cash-rich companies choose to keep money they could never hope to spend offshore rather than see some of it redistributed via taxation. That's what leads to growing support for the kibd of left wing populism that Corbyn Labour represents.
And a lot more m/c people are very happy to let people on low incomes pay for their children's university fees, the health service...... and other universal benefits and hope that no-one notices.
So what's the solution? Higher taxes for the middle class or lower spending on services? I know which I'd go for.
Oh indeed - I agree but I would get rid of some universal benefits including some for pensioners to ease the pain. One area in health of interest is dentistry. Here in Spain it is outside the NHS apart from children. Interestingly the private charges are generally the same as the UK NHS or cheaper - my implants here would have cost 50% more in the UK!
Dentist charges vary hugely from surgery to surgery in my experience. The same treatments can cost hundreds of pounds more, even thousands, depending on the dentist.
Could Boris Johnson's love life block his route to Number 10?
'Tory bible' editor claims the ever-aspiring Foreign Secretary could be 'exposed' after ruthless rivals begin 'shadow leadership campaign' to take over from Theresa May
Could Boris Johnson's love life block his route to Number 10?
'Tory bible' editor claims the ever-aspiring Foreign Secretary could be 'exposed' after ruthless rivals begin 'shadow leadership campaign' to take over from Theresa May
Yes - some of the M/C altruism is really rather convenient.
It's in everyone's interests that the state redistributes wealth to ensure everyone has a decent stanard if living that includes access to good public services.
Of course - except too often when it comes down to it people much prefer other people's wealth distributed to them! The reality is that is a very large amount of redistribution which would have to include a hit on the m/c which they do not seem to be so keen on. Much easier to stick with the myth that all the money could come from greedy bankers, Philip Green and some footballers.
The simple fact is that there has never been more wealth in the UK. A lot of very rich people and cash-rich companies choose to keep money they could never hope to spend offshore rather than see some of it redistributed via taxation. That's what leads to growing support for the kibd of left wing populism that Corbyn Labour represents.
The other simple fact is that there has never been more debt in the UK. Its something Corbyn will never address, which is why Labour govts always ruin the economy
Nonsense - the Debt to GDP ratio is no higher today than in the mid 1960s - and lower than the late 1950s when Macmillan informed us that we 'had never had it so good'. As for ruining the economy , Labour inherited an economic mess from the Tories in both 1964 and 1974 - and bequeathed an economy in better health in 1970 and 1979.
Yes - some of the M/C altruism is really rather convenient.
It's in everyone's interests that the state redistributes wealth to ensure everyone has a decent stanard if living that includes access to good public services.
Of course - except too often when it comes down to it people much prefer other people's wealth distributed to them! The reality is that is a very large amount of redistribution which would have to include a hit on the m/c which they do not seem to be so keen on. Much easier to stick with the myth that all the money could come from greedy bankers, Philip Green and some footballers.
The simple fact is that there has never been more wealth in the UK. A lot of very rich people and cash-rich companies choose to keep money they could never hope to spend offshore rather than see some of it redistributed via taxation. That's what leads to growing support for the kibd of left wing populism that Corbyn Labour represents.
And a lot more m/c people are very happy to let people on low incomes pay for their children's university fees, the health service...... and other universal benefits and hope that no-one notices.
They should move to Scotland and the SNP government would give them "free" prescriptions too.....
Very interesting polling. Suggests Brexit not that significant for Labour voters?
And also that the manifesto and policies were a clear positive for Labour. Logically then they should keep them for next time around.
All parties rushed their manifestos because of the snap election, so none were as fettled as they should be. It is quite likely that Labour will be better prepared next time.
I cannot see May enjoying the conference season. Surely she is toasted enough already?
The next Labour manifesto will be much further to the left than the last one. The party leadership has decided that on 8th June 12.8 million people voted for socialism. I am not sure that's the right call.
Agreed. Take the Labour position on tuition fees, its already been tried and found to have failed in Scotland. Something worth remembering.
SNP policy is far superior
Well, it is if you want free University education for the middle class paid for by less access for the poor.....
More Tory lies , use completely false statistics etc.
I was thinking of an expletive when I saw this, and I didn't even vote Labour. This right here is McDonnell admitting that it's all a con. He comes across more and more as a man with a deep seated grudge towards anyone to the right of him as opposed to someone interested in providing solutions to Britain's problems.
No doubt, we'll see the cult of Corbyn attempt to spin this.
"the horticulture sector is about to be launched right into the Brexit slurry pit with everyone else, thanks to some naïve and ignorant misconceptions about migrant workers."
There are under 400k employed in the entire farming, fishing and forestry sector so I have doubts that Britain needs the unlimited immigration that we are told it does to provide a workforce.
Very interesting polling. Suggests Brexit not that significant for Labour voters?
And also that the manifesto and policies were a clear positive for Labour. Logically then they should keep them for next time around.
All parties rushed their manifestos because of the snap election, so none were as fettled as they should be. It is quite likely that Labour will be better prepared next time.
I cannot see May enjoying the conference season. Surely she is toasted enough already?
The next Labour manifesto will be much further to the left than the last one. The party leadership has decided that on 8th June 12.8 million people voted for socialism. I am not sure that's the right call.
Agreed. Take the Labour position on tuition fees, its already been tried and found to have failed in Scotland. Something worth remembering.
SNP policy is far superior
Well, it is if you want free University education for the middle class paid for by less access for the poor.....
But it is only returning to the system as it was until the 1990s.
Could Boris Johnson's love life block his route to Number 10?
'Tory bible' editor claims the ever-aspiring Foreign Secretary could be 'exposed' after ruthless rivals begin 'shadow leadership campaign' to take over from Theresa May
This isn't America. Most people won't care about what Boris does in his private life. There are plenty of other reasons to not want to see him in N.10 as PM.
Dentist charges vary hugely from surgery to surgery in my experience. The same treatments can cost hundreds of pounds more, even thousands, depending on the dentist.
Mrs Ace's experience in private practice is that the more she charges the more referrals and glowing reviews she gets. Consequently, she is very expensive.
Liam Fox just made it very clear who he thinks is responsible for the leaks from cabinet.
Didn't watch it, who does he think is responsible?
He said that the person responsible has been drinking too much prosecco.
Cheers.
I'm assuming he's having a dig at that fine Cambridge gentleman, Andrew Mitchell.
I was thinking he was suggesting Boris Johnson, but perhaps not.
It was the prosecco that made me think Andrew Mitchell because of this from a few days ago.
Theresa May's allies have accused Tory MPs calling for Theresa May to stand down of drinking "too much warm Prosecco" at Summer Parties.
Andrew Mitchell, a former Tory Cabinet minister, reportedly told a private dinner that Mrs May is "dead in the water", has "lost her authority" and is "weak".
David Lidington, the Justice Secretary, dismissed the suggestion. He said: "The Summer parties are the key too this. I have been in Parliament for almost 25 years and almost every July the combination of too much Sun and too much warm Prosecco leads to gossipy stories in the media.
Thanks for posting that, it was a very interesting albeit long read.
Being unfamiliar with the publication at first, I assumed it was a hard-right Breitbart wannabe, on getting to the end I discovered the article was written by an esteemed author, researcher and teacher, and the publication was a moderate, centrist international relations journal.
A very well written and cogent article that demonstrates the impact the migration crisis is having on the fabric of Western society.
People with loud opinions on the innocent Ched Evans don't like to comment on the cases of women raped by Afghan migrants
Dentist charges vary hugely from surgery to surgery in my experience. The same treatments can cost hundreds of pounds more, even thousands, depending on the dentist.
Mrs Ace's experience in private practice is that the more she charges the more referrals and glowing reviews she gets. Consequently, she is very expensive.
Dentistry is the perfect example of a Giffen good - you only have one set of teeth so can't afford to gamble with them. And as people don't have any other way to judge quality price used (the more expensive the dentist, clearly the better they are)..
Big John was fond of screaming "liar, liar" at the tories before the last election
What say you now John?
The costs of free University tuition for 1.8 million UK students have still not been correctly calculated by the Labour Party, even though the sum is simple. Number of students * annual university tuition fees = 1.8 x 10^6 * 9.25 x 10^3 = 16. 65 billion.
The bill is probably larger, as I have ignored our (at present) unknown obligations to EU students.
However the bill is calculated, it doesn't come to 8 billion or 9 billion, which Labour repeatedly quote.
If Labour only have budgeted 8 or 9 billion for the policy, it will lead to cuts at Universities.
Not swingeing Tory cuts. but swingeing Labour cuts and substantial redundancies.
Comments
Accuses the Tories of wanting an anti-UK Brexit for ideological reasons, while they are the patriots.
Amazing. Trotskyite's obviously have no love for ideology, while Tories ae reading their little blue book. I think I've heard it all now. When I were't lad, it were opposite (for Mr Dancer).
What up sheeple.
Edited extra bit: hope your medical situation is improving, incidentally.
That is coherent. Now what's the problem?
Mr Cole ... best wishes for the future.
Yes - some of the M/C altruism is really rather convenient.
The plan is to negotiate for that outcome.
You're welcome.
If a voter this time round cast his vote in favour of the Conservative candidate on the grounds that they represented greater economic stability - strange in itself, since their Brexit mania is set to wreck the economy - this certainly does not mean that the country wanted the reintroduction of grammar schools, or the selling off of the NHS to American interests.
What we need is a voting system which allows people to discriminate more among an assortment of candidates, with different, overlapping views. The case of Mr Smithson`s colleagues voting Labour in Vauxhall in order to oppose Brexit is a case in point.
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/ive-worked-refugees-decades-europes-afghan-crime-wave-mind-21506?page=show
Not convinced any of the Tories really want to take over just now?
So KBO is the order of the day!
https://twitter.com/TheScotsman/status/886516389254762496
https://order-order.com/2017/07/16/mcdonnell-backtracks-on-labour-vow-to-write-off-student-debt/
Big John was fond of screaming "liar, liar" at the tories before the last election
What say you now John?
Being unfamiliar with the publication at first, I assumed it was a hard-right Breitbart wannabe, on getting to the end I discovered the article was written by an esteemed author, researcher and teacher, and the publication was a moderate, centrist international relations journal.
A very well written and cogent article that demonstrates the impact the migration crisis is having on the fabric of Western society.
Or sold in Calais to Brits.
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/its-an-utter-disaster-darling-brexit-is-deterring-au-pairs-6rc6bnx2l
Could Boris Johnson's love life block his route to Number 10?
'Tory bible' editor claims the ever-aspiring Foreign Secretary could be 'exposed' after ruthless rivals begin 'shadow leadership campaign' to take over from Theresa May
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4699990/Could-Boris-Johnson-s-love-life-block-route-Number-10.html
There are doubtless public sector workers who are underpaid but I'd chose a better example than lollipop ladies if I were you.
I'm assuming he's having a dig at that fine Cambridge gentleman, Andrew Mitchell.
*Ken - any other teetotal politicians you'd care to mention?
No doubt, we'll see the cult of Corbyn attempt to spin this.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/summaryoflabourmarketstatistics
Theresa May's allies have accused Tory MPs calling for Theresa May to stand down of drinking "too much warm Prosecco" at Summer Parties.
Andrew Mitchell, a former Tory Cabinet minister, reportedly told a private dinner that Mrs May is "dead in the water", has "lost her authority" and is "weak".
David Lidington, the Justice Secretary, dismissed the suggestion. He said: "The Summer parties are the key too this. I have been in Parliament for almost 25 years and almost every July the combination of too much Sun and too much warm Prosecco leads to gossipy stories in the media.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/09/theresa-may-ally-accuses-tory-mps-calling-quit-drinking-much/
The bill is probably larger, as I have ignored our (at present) unknown obligations to EU students.
However the bill is calculated, it doesn't come to 8 billion or 9 billion, which Labour repeatedly quote.
If Labour only have budgeted 8 or 9 billion for the policy, it will lead to cuts at Universities.
Not swingeing Tory cuts. but swingeing Labour cuts and substantial redundancies.