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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Sandpit, wouldn't worry. I'm sure they'll burn safely.

    Cars burst into flames at least a few times a season. It's rare now for them to be upside down (though on the side/buried in a barrier is possible), but it only has to happen once.

    FIA's not winning fans with this. If it really is about safety, why is it only being enforced for F1 and not other categories of open seat racing?

    There's also a question mark about peripheral vision, particularly off the start line as noise all around makes the ears less useful for pinpointing the whereabouts of another car.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,830

    Chris Grayling bolloxed it up. That's no-one's fault but Chris Grayling's. The judgment today was eviscerating.

    Not for the first time, one does have to wonder why the government is either not getting proper legal advice, or is not following it. They really shouldn't be getting themselves into a position where they lose cases like this or the Article 50 case.
    Sometimes, the law is not at all open and shut.

    Take, for example, the case of Heather Illott and the Blue Cross. The High Court and Court of Appeal ruled in her favour, and then the Supreme Court delivered a resounding judgment against her, overturning a string of decisions in the lower courts over many years, and returning to the position of a generation ago - namely that adult children can only bring claims under the Inheritance Act 1975 in exceptional circumstances.

    For all we know, the government was advised it had a good case, both in this instance and in the A. 50 case (and in the latter, three judges sided with the government).
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056

    Guido is impressed with the beefed up No. 10 team (post Timothy era) and recent news grid:

    "Punchy, aggressive… a welcome, much-needed change of tempo…"

    https://order-order.com/2017/07/26/paul-harrison-new-press-sec-kirsty-buchanan-no-10-davis-hires-stewart-jackson-tim-smith-dexeu/

    "Davis hires Stewart Jackson"

    So it's official? Heaven help DExEU.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    Sandpit said:

    F1: halo introduction means the time limit for cockpit evacuation will be increased from 5s to 8-10s.

    Not sure that'll win over critics (I'm less critical than most, to be honest).

    Nope, they shouldn't be making it take longer to get out of a car that's on fire. I've also yet to see what a car with Halo attached looks like upside down, from the point of view of evacuation.
    Prof Watkins did a heck of a lot of work on this, and he often had to fight for it as part of the FIA Expert Advisory Safety Committee. I don't like Max Moseley, but he had the sense to back the prof up. As did, for the most part, Bernie.

    All three men are gone. One's job has essentially disappeared, one has been replaced by a biased fool, and the third is now a corporation. I fear F1 is going to lose direction quickly.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited July 2017
    Deleted
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Jessop, aye. Whilst I think Mosley's attitude to free speech is pathetic, his work on safety was very good.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,925

    Chris Grayling bolloxed it up. That's no-one's fault but Chris Grayling's. The judgment today was eviscerating.

    Not for the first time, one does have to wonder why the government is either not getting proper legal advice, or is not following it. They really shouldn't be getting themselves into a position where they lose cases like this or the Article 50 case.

    Yep - this is true. I wonder if one of the problems is that government lawyers will never earn as much as those in private practice, so are never going to be the best. That said, extensive advice would (or should) have been taken from top firms. Maybe it's a case of people not listening to what they are being told, or not properly understanding it.

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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Guido is impressed with the beefed up No. 10 team (post Timothy era) and recent news grid:

    "Punchy, aggressive… a welcome, much-needed change of tempo…"

    https://order-order.com/2017/07/26/paul-harrison-new-press-sec-kirsty-buchanan-no-10-davis-hires-stewart-jackson-tim-smith-dexeu/

    It confirms that the recent fuss over student debts was CCHQ inspired. The SpAd/CS revolving door remains troublesome, though revolving doors usually do.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    edited July 2017

    Sandpit said:

    F1: halo introduction means the time limit for cockpit evacuation will be increased from 5s to 8-10s.

    Not sure that'll win over critics (I'm less critical than most, to be honest).

    Nope, they shouldn't be making it take longer to get out of a car that's on fire. I've also yet to see what a car with Halo attached looks like upside down, from the point of view of evacuation.
    Prof Watkins did a heck of a lot of work on this, and he often had to fight for it as part of the FIA Expert Advisory Safety Committee. I don't like Max Moseley, but he had the sense to back the prof up. As did, for the most part, Bernie.

    All three men are gone. One's job has essentially disappeared, one has been replaced by a biased fool, and the third is now a corporation. I fear F1 is going to lose direction quickly.
    :+1:

    Sid Watkins' memoir, Life at the Limit, was a fascinating read about how F1 developed from an era where there'd be a handful of funerals a year, to today's situation.

    The key turning point was when Bernie gave Sid a veto on the medical facilities, telling promotors that if the Doc says we're not racing, then we're not racing.

    Indeed at the Chinese GP this year most of Friday's running was cancelled as the Shanghai smog grounded the medical helicopter. The Chinese authorities moved an entire neurological trauma centre overnight from Downtown Shanghai to another hospital closer to the circuit - because the F1 medical team wouldn't hesitate to cancel the race.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,830
    edited July 2017

    Chris Grayling bolloxed it up. That's no-one's fault but Chris Grayling's. The judgment today was eviscerating.

    Not for the first time, one does have to wonder why the government is either not getting proper legal advice, or is not following it. They really shouldn't be getting themselves into a position where they lose cases like this or the Article 50 case.

    Yep - this is true. I wonder if one of the problems is that government lawyers will never earn as much as those in private practice, so are never going to be the best. That said, extensive advice would (or should) have been taken from top firms. Maybe it's a case of people not listening to what they are being told, or not properly understanding it.

    Having now read the judgement, I see that the Government won its case in the High Court and the Court of Appeal, so I think this is another case where the law was certainly not clear cut. The Government would not have prevailed in the lower Courts, had its arguments lacked merit.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Guido is impressed with the beefed up No. 10 team (post Timothy era) and recent news grid:

    "Punchy, aggressive… a welcome, much-needed change of tempo…"

    https://order-order.com/2017/07/26/paul-harrison-new-press-sec-kirsty-buchanan-no-10-davis-hires-stewart-jackson-tim-smith-dexeu/

    It confirms that the recent fuss over student debts was CCHQ inspired. The SpAd/CS revolving door remains troublesome, though revolving doors usually do.
    And unlike Guido, I remain sceptical that talking about Labour's more popular policies (or not policies) is good for the Conservatives. If the blue team wants to send small boys up chimneys, then pointing to Labour confusion on whether the minimum age for sweeps should be 10 or 12 does not make the first position less toxic, it makes it more toxic by bringing it back to public consciousness.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Sean_F said:

    Having now read the judgement, I see that the Government won its case in the High Court and the Court of Appeal, so I think this is another case where the law was certainly not clear cut. The Government would not have prevailed in the lower Courts, had its arguments lacked merit.

    Ah, that does put a different complexion on things.

    I'm not sure that our laws being made by a game of judicial musical chairs is quite optimal!
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,814

    Guido is impressed with the beefed up No. 10 team (post Timothy era) and recent news grid:

    "Punchy, aggressive… a welcome, much-needed change of tempo…"

    https://order-order.com/2017/07/26/paul-harrison-new-press-sec-kirsty-buchanan-no-10-davis-hires-stewart-jackson-tim-smith-dexeu/

    Too little, too late?
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,603
    So in the same week, the government announces that rail electrification projects are cancelled/curtailed because bi-mode (diesel + electric) trains are wonderful, and then announces that diesel and petrol cars will be banned.

    Never mind joined up government, they can't even manage joined up policy in the Department of Transport. It wasn't this bad when Prezza was in charge!
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Chris Grayling bolloxed it up. That's no-one's fault but Chris Grayling's. The judgment today was eviscerating.

    Not for the first time, one does have to wonder why the government is either not getting proper legal advice, or is not following it. They really shouldn't be getting themselves into a position where they lose cases like this or the Article 50 case.
    The A50 case produced a split decision so the arguments must have been fairly finely balanced. In any case, the constitutional importance of that one was so significant that it was worth the government fighting it even if it thought it only had a 20% chance of winning, simply in order to clarify the law one way or the other (and in reality, its chances were probably a good deal better than that).

    What a government is allowed to do can often be a very grey area and it's not surprising that ministers will tend to push the boundaries of what might be acceptable because doing so enables them to put in place a solution that they hope will resolve whatever problem lies in front of them that day. Indeed, they have to do that because logically, the alternative is to seek permission from the courts before taking any action upon which there's any doubt (which will nearly always be the case).
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    F1: halo introduction means the time limit for cockpit evacuation will be increased from 5s to 8-10s.

    Not sure that'll win over critics (I'm less critical than most, to be honest).

    Nope, they shouldn't be making it take longer to get out of a car that's on fire. I've also yet to see what a car with Halo attached looks like upside down, from the point of view of evacuation.
    Prof Watkins did a heck of a lot of work on this, and he often had to fight for it as part of the FIA Expert Advisory Safety Committee. I don't like Max Moseley, but he had the sense to back the prof up. As did, for the most part, Bernie.

    All three men are gone. One's job has essentially disappeared, one has been replaced by a biased fool, and the third is now a corporation. I fear F1 is going to lose direction quickly.
    :+1:

    Sid Watkins' memoir, Life at the Limit, was a fascinating read about how F1 developed from an era where there'd be a handful of funerals a year, to today's situation.

    The key turning point was when Bernie gave Sid a veto on the medical facilities, telling promotors that if the Doc says we're not racing, then we're not racing.

    Indeed at the Chinese GP this year most of Friday's running was cancelled as the Shanghai smog grounded the medical helicopter. The Chinese authorities moved an entire neurological trauma centre overnight from Downtown Shanghai to another hospital closer to the circuit - because the F1 medical team wouldn't hesitate to cancel the race.
    There are a fair few stories like that. ISTR one where there was no medical car available. So Bernie and Sid went through the parking lot, found a fast car, broke into it, and used that. I daresay the modern medical cars are a little more altered for the purpose.

    I'm biased as I knew Sid, and he operated on me a few times. He was a great man, with none of the airs or graces you would expect of someone in his position.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Rentool, that's a juxtaposition, but not the crucial one. Electrification cancelled in the north, Crossrail 2 confirmed for London. Electric cars (viable and easier in cities by far than the countryside and towns) being not merely preferred but the only new option in a couple of decades appears to be the height of a metropolitan-centric approach which doesn't consider or understand that the whole country isn't made of little Londons.

    As I said, perhaps I'm wrong and over-egging the cake, but when Gove referred to local authorities deciding what was best for their city I did want to point out to him that an awful lot of people live in towns and villages.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Chris Grayling bolloxed it up. That's no-one's fault but Chris Grayling's. The judgment today was eviscerating.

    Not for the first time, one does have to wonder why the government is either not getting proper legal advice, or is not following it. They really shouldn't be getting themselves into a position where they lose cases like this or the Article 50 case.

    Yep - this is true. I wonder if one of the problems is that government lawyers will never earn as much as those in private practice, so are never going to be the best. That said, extensive advice would (or should) have been taken from top firms. Maybe it's a case of people not listening to what they are being told, or not properly understanding it.

    The outcome of court cases is no more predictable than anything else is, even to the lawyers involved, largely because there is a filter inherent in the system - predictable cases either don't become cases at all, or settle.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973

    Mr. Jessop, aye. Whilst I think Mosley's attitude to free speech is pathetic, his work on safety was very good.

    Well .... yes and no. You can argue that the tragedies in 1994 could be directly laid at the FIA's door under his direction: banning traction control / electronic drivers aids so hurriedly in ?June? 1993 left teams with little time to regress their developments before the 1994 season.

    to his credit, he and the FIA reacted quickly after Imola. But perhaps the tragedies could have been avoided in the first place.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Jessop, you're more up on the particulars of that than me, although I would say the general direction of travel was very much for the better.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973

    Mr. Rentool, that's a juxtaposition, but not the crucial one. Electrification cancelled in the north, Crossrail 2 confirmed for London. Electric cars (viable and easier in cities by far than the countryside and towns) being not merely preferred but the only new option in a couple of decades appears to be the height of a metropolitan-centric approach which doesn't consider or understand that the whole country isn't made of little Londons.

    As I said, perhaps I'm wrong and over-egging the cake, but when Gove referred to local authorities deciding what was best for their city I did want to point out to him that an awful lot of people live in towns and villages.

    *One* electrification has been cancelled in the north (Windermere to Oxenholme). AFAIAA the main electrification - Manchester to Leeds - is still ongoing.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,830
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Chris Grayling bolloxed it up. That's no-one's fault but Chris Grayling's. The judgment today was eviscerating.

    Not for the first time, one does have to wonder why the government is either not getting proper legal advice, or is not following it. They really shouldn't be getting themselves into a position where they lose cases like this or the Article 50 case.

    Yep - this is true. I wonder if one of the problems is that government lawyers will never earn as much as those in private practice, so are never going to be the best. That said, extensive advice would (or should) have been taken from top firms. Maybe it's a case of people not listening to what they are being told, or not properly understanding it.

    The outcome of court cases is no more predictable than anything else is, even to the lawyers involved, largely because there is a filter inherent in the system - predictable cases either don't become cases at all, or settle.
    Judges are very good at providing reasoned arguments for their decisions. Reading the Supreme Court judgment, you'd think what was the point of the Government defending the action.

    But, if you were to read the judgements of the High Court and the Court of Appeal, you'd no doubt think what was the point of Unison bringing the action.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Well the Donald has certainly set off my timelines on social media...
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973

    Mr. Jessop, you're more up on the particulars of that than me, although I would say the general direction of travel was very much for the better.

    They banned driver aids that the cars relied on, left precious little time for the teams to adapt, and allowed the cars to go as fast. It was a recipe for disaster.

    Even before Imola people were saying it had made the sport far more dangerous. It shows that post-Imola the first thing they did was slow the cars down.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,830

    Well the Donald has certainly set off my timelines on social media...

    I imagine that's the kind of reaction he was hoping for.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Jessop (1), on the electrification: it's still a poor juxtaposition. Can't find millions for the north, can find billions for London.

    Mr. Jessop (2), I've been a lot more neutral on the halo than most people (some journalists seem to like it, and the FIA, but the fans seem to hate it) but the recent news on cockpit evacuation is not fantastic. Cars now are generally very safe, but if safety is paramount then the sport may as well be banned. Driving at 200mph is inherently dangerous. Doubling cockpit evacuation times due to adding a safety feature already widely considered to be of dubious merit is not necessarily going to win over a swathe of hitherto unimpressed fans.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    F1: halo introduction means the time limit for cockpit evacuation will be increased from 5s to 8-10s.

    Not sure that'll win over critics (I'm less critical than most, to be honest).

    Nope, they shouldn't be making it take longer to get out of a car that's on fire. I've also yet to see what a car with Halo attached looks like upside down, from the point of view of evacuation.
    Prof Watkins did a heck of a lot of work on this, and he often had to fight for it as part of the FIA Expert Advisory Safety Committee. I don't like Max Moseley, but he had the sense to back the prof up. As did, for the most part, Bernie.

    All three men are gone. One's job has essentially disappeared, one has been replaced by a biased fool, and the third is now a corporation. I fear F1 is going to lose direction quickly.
    :+1:

    Sid Watkins' memoir, Life at the Limit, was a fascinating read about how F1 developed from an era where there'd be a handful of funerals a year, to today's situation.

    The key turning point was when Bernie gave Sid a veto on the medical facilities, telling promotors that if the Doc says we're not racing, then we're not racing.

    Indeed at the Chinese GP this year most of Friday's running was cancelled as the Shanghai smog grounded the medical helicopter. The Chinese authorities moved an entire neurological trauma centre overnight from Downtown Shanghai to another hospital closer to the circuit - because the F1 medical team wouldn't hesitate to cancel the race.
    There are a fair few stories like that. ISTR one where there was no medical car available. So Bernie and Sid went through the parking lot, found a fast car, broke into it, and used that. I daresay the modern medical cars are a little more altered for the purpose.

    I'm biased as I knew Sid, and he operated on me a few times. He was a great man, with none of the airs or graces you would expect of someone in his position.
    Ah, you were indeed a lucky man to have known Sid. He was indeed famous for playing down his weekend job, would usually be back at his surgery in London by Monday.

    Today's medical cars are Mercedes C63 AMG road cars, and are surprisingly mechanically standard bar a sports exhaust. Ditto the safety cars, which are Mercedes AMG GT S models. Both full of lots of equipment though.

    https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/features/2017/2/driving-f1-medical-car-worlds-fastest-ambulance.html
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    SNIP

    High immigration is correlated with a booming economy.

    We can cut immigration by crashing the economy.

    If immigration falls, the economy will suffer.

    As predicted...
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,976
    Mr. Sandpit, they need a faster safety car, though. Azerbaijan was a farce with tyre warming issues (partly down to the circuit, admittedly).
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,056
    Scott_P said:

    SNIP

    High immigration is correlated with a booming economy.

    We can cut immigration by crashing the economy.

    If immigration falls, the economy will suffer.

    As predicted...
    Boris found the handle, but it turned out to be a flush.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,973
    Sandpit said:

    Ah, you were indeed a lucky man to have known Sid. He was indeed famous for playing down his weekend job, would usually be back at his surgery in London by Monday.

    (Snip)

    Anecdote alert.

    When I first met him in 1993, I didn't know who he was. All I knew is that after many years, this was a doctor who was confident he could fix me. Then one day I went for an appointment and his secretary said: "We've been trying to contact you. Sid's asked me to tell you he's got an urgent appointment, but he's really playing golf with Ayrton Senna."

    As an F1 fan, my jaw hit the floor (and no, that wasn't what he was operating on). ;)

    He was a gent. I was in hospital after one operation and he came into my room, smoking a cigar and with a bottle of whisky. "None of my friends are in London, so I thought we could have a drink." He checked my medication and poured me a couple of very generous tipples.

    He fancied Glenmorangie. Apparently because although it's not the best whisky, he could find it in most places around the world.

    Few people get to genuinely change lives for the better, but he did mine.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881
    edited July 2017

    Mr. Sandpit, they need a faster safety car, though. Azerbaijan was a farce with tyre warming issues (partly down to the circuit, admittedly).

    It's a £150k sports car with 600bhp, there's not a lot that would be quicker while maintaining reliability and all- weather capabilities. I'd agree about Azerbaijan, but that's an unusual circuit in that the final corner is so far back.

    It would be difficult to make the SC much quicker without using a racing car, it just shows how much quicker an F1 car is than anything else.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,204
    Plenty of people I sat near when I went to a Referendum public debate were against immigrants and they made their views noisily clear throughout proceedings.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    Mr. Jessop (1), on the electrification: it's still a poor juxtaposition. Can't find millions for the north, can find billions for London.

    The millions for the north were already allocated. Network Rail wasted them.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,881

    Sandpit said:

    Ah, you were indeed a lucky man to have known Sid. He was indeed famous for playing down his weekend job, would usually be back at his surgery in London by Monday.

    (Snip)

    Anecdote alert.

    When I first met him in 1993, I didn't know who he was. All I knew is that after many years, this was a doctor who was confident he could fix me. Then one day I went for an appointment and his secretary said: "We've been trying to contact you. Sid's asked me to tell you he's got an urgent appointment, but he's really playing golf with Ayrton Senna."

    As an F1 fan, my jaw hit the floor (and no, that wasn't what he was operating on). ;)

    He was a gent. I was in hospital after one operation and he came into my room, smoking a cigar and with a bottle of whisky. "None of my friends are in London, so I thought we could have a drink." He checked my medication and poured me a couple of very generous tipples.

    He fancied Glenmorangie. Apparently because although it's not the best whisky, he could find it in most places around the world.

    Few people get to genuinely change lives for the better, but he did mine.
    Awesome story! :+1:
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,204

    So in the same week, the government announces that rail electrification projects are cancelled/curtailed because bi-mode (diesel + electric) trains are wonderful, and then announces that diesel and petrol cars will be banned.

    Never mind joined up government, they can't even manage joined up policy in the Department of Transport. It wasn't this bad when Prezza was in charge!

    :+1:

    Although as the theme of May's government has turned from 'Strong and Stable' to Shambles, then this is of a piece.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,204
    GIN1138 said:

    Guido is impressed with the beefed up No. 10 team (post Timothy era) and recent news grid:

    "Punchy, aggressive… a welcome, much-needed change of tempo…"

    https://order-order.com/2017/07/26/paul-harrison-new-press-sec-kirsty-buchanan-no-10-davis-hires-stewart-jackson-tim-smith-dexeu/

    Too little, too late?
    Who knows. There may be four and a bit years to next election.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,204
    "Blair may have embraced some ethical middle-class beliefs, but Corbyn goes much further and is all the more popular for it. No doubt he also appeals to fiftysomething leftists nostalgic for a return to ‘real’ Labour values, but his main constituency is well-to-do public professionals with the DAB set permanently to Radio 4."

    http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/why-the-middle-classes-love-jezza/20119#.WXjF_dPyvgF
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,204
    NEW THREAD
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