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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » London falling – a look at next May’s elections in the capital

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  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    She is suggesting "real" people don't need it. I use secure end to end and vpn and I am neither a terrorist or a criminal and very much a real person. The IP I create is my livelihood and taking steps to protect myself is just plain sensible.

    Sure. But what she actually said was that most users of WhatsApp and similar applications use them primarily for the convenience rather than for the strong end-to-end encryption, which seems a pretty unexceptional observation given that, for example, people post massive amounts of information about themselves on Facebook.
    And she's completely wrong. Most people use Whatsapp, iMessage, Signal etc. *because* of the security features, after Edward Snowden revealed a couple of years ago that the NSA and MI5/6 were routinely storing everyone's communications without permission.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited August 2017

    She is suggesting "real" people don't need it. I use secure end to end and vpn and I am neither a terrorist or a criminal and very much a real person. The IP I create is my livelihood and taking steps to protect myself is just plain sensible.

    Sure. But what she actually said was that most users of WhatsApp and similar applications use them primarily for the convenience rather than for the strong end-to-end encryption, which seems a pretty unexceptional observation given that, for example, people post massive amounts of information about themselves on Facebook.
    She then went on to talk about reasons to have "not backdoor" backdoors....
    Indeed, and very strong reasons they are too.
    No not at all. And this is where I return to saying the government keeping coming out with the same flawed crap.
    They, and all Western democratic governments, keep coming out with 'the same flawed crap' for an extremely good reason: the need to prevent terrorist attacks and give the security forces the tools to address criminal gangs, child prostitution and other other nasties in a technologically-changing world. They are not doing this out of cussedness or ignorance, and GCHQ, which advises on this, is one of the most sophisticated and successful organizations of its type in the world.
    Most ISIS Terrorists don't use whatapp. And if those that do certainly won't if the goverent got its way. The source code for creating secure comms is widely available and it will simply move people onto different platforms.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited August 2017
    Interesting electoral fact:

    In 63 of the 73 London constituencies (what you might call "core London"), the result was Lab 60%, Con 30%, LD 6%. The 10 excluded seats are in places on the border with the home counties like Richmond, Kingston, Orpington, Bexley, Upminster, Ruislip, etc.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,086

    Off-topic:

    trace ... ;)

    Swings and roundabouts, at Rye in East Sussex they've recently built a golf course on land reclaimed from the sea.
    a where the differences can be seen year-on-year. Where I walked in 1999 is now well down on the beach.

    http://www.bgs.ac.uk/landslides/Happisburgh.html
    The point being that certainly around Happisburgh we have been losing land since the Bronze Age at least. It is a combination of isostatic readjustment following the removal of the ice sheets across northern Britain and the nature of the soft sediments that make up the coastline.

    A good example of this can be seen at Dunwich

    http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/lost-town-dunwich
    On the other hand the beach at Holkolm in North Norfolk has got significantly bigger, I think the erosion of NE Norfolk moves to NW Norfolk. Plenty of historical floods there including the big one in the late 40's.
    Holkolm is still sinking though. The whole of Britain south of a line roughly through Yorkshire/Black Country is sinking whilst everything to the North of that line is rising.
    I don't know if you saw it, but when this was last discussed a few months ago I mentioned a little story. I listen to a history podcast, and in it the American narrator opined that the Battle of Hastings occurred on a hill because the sea levels in the area had fallen since then...

    He's usually a good guy, so it was a brilliantly uncharacteristic gaff.
    The site of the Battle of Hastings (Senlac Hill) is well above any recent sea levels but the the region has risen in the past thousand years iirc. I believe nearby Bodium Castle was built on an inlet; it's now 12 miles from the sea. The medieval port of Rye is now several miles from the sea and Romney marsh was a bay in Roman times.

    I always thought that this is all due to the post glacial rebound but I may be wrong.
    No, the south of England generally is sinking. But the geomorphology around Dungeness is mostly influenced by coastal erosion and deposits, as material is pushed eastwards along the coast due to the prevailing SW winds (waves run up the beach diagonally and back down again perpendicular to the beach, except where there are berms built to stop this happening).
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited August 2017
    Sandpit said:

    And she's completely wrong. Most people use Whatsapp, iMessage, Signal etc. *because* of the security features, after Edward Snowden revealed a couple of years ago that the NSA and MI5/6 were routinely storing everyone's communications without permission.

    Some people might, but I doubt if it's very many. As I pointed out, the Facebook generation seem to be completely uninterested in protecting their personal data - indeed, they spend most of their time broadcasting every detail of their lives in tedious detail.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited August 2017


    Most ISIS Terrorists don't use whatapp. And if those that do certainly won't if the goverent got its way. The source code for creating secure comms is widely available and it will simply move people onto different platforms.

    A fine example of the 'GCHQ are idiots, and I know far more then they do' syndrome.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited August 2017


    Most ISIS Terrorists don't use whatapp. And if those that do certainly won't if the goverent got its way. The source code for creating secure comms is widely available and it will simply move people onto different platforms.

    A fine example of the 'GCHQ are idiots' syndrome.
    I never said that, it is more that GCHQ motivation isn't aligned with public's ability to securely communicate. Its widely known that ISIS moved to signal and telegram ages ago, and that the security services have had some success with those apps but then the whack a mole game just continues. Making whatapp have a massive backdoor does nothing to solve this problem and just exposes everybody.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Nabavi, terrorists also use knives and vans. Rudd's argument for making encryption weak could equally be used to ban cutlery and motor vehicles.

    Not to mention, you make unbreakable codes with pen, paper, and dice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRa_zzQOEe8
  • marke09marke09 Posts: 926
    Economic thinktank NIESR:

  • Most ISIS Terrorists don't use whatapp. And if those that do certainly won't if the goverent got its way. The source code for creating secure comms is widely available and it will simply move people onto different platforms.

    A fine example of the 'GCHQ are idiots, and I know far more then they do' syndrome.
    Not at all. The UN specialist on this was on the TV last night talking about this last night. He said that terror groups have moved to using platforms which are not based in Western countries, do not have to answer to western restrictions and do not have to surrender their encryption to any authorities. The overt action to force companies to surrender encryption which is now widespread public knowledge simply means that the quiet covert monitoring with some help from the social media companies which has been going on for a considerable amount of time has now been undermined because even the dumbest Bradford teenager knows normal lines of communication are not secure and should not be used.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    And then I can only imagine she is ignoring that advice. Because politicians keep coming out with totally ignorant nonsense on this stuff.

    I doubt that very much.
    Well it is total horseshit. You can't uninvent this technology.
    She's not suggesting you can.
    She is suggesting "real" people don't need it. I use secure end to end and vpn and I am neither a terrorist or a criminal and very much a real person. The IP I create is my livelihood and taking steps to protect myself is just plain sensible.
    But no one who describes themselves as a "sysadmin" can in any way be deemed a real person.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    I wonder if a Russian Mr Nabavi would be so quick to defend the FSB? I think somehow he would.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Anyway, time for me to be off. Kubica so far appears competitive, so we'll see how that goes.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "A new survey of political and social attitudes among the US Muslims shows that over three-quarters of the community rejects violence against civilians in the name of religious or political beliefs.

    The survey, released on July 26 by the Pew Research organization, revealed that 76 percent of respondents agreed with the contention that “targeting and killing civilians can never be justified to further a political, social or religious cause.” Eight percent believed such actions were justified “rarely,” while a further 12 percent believed terrorist killing is “sometimes” or “often” justified."

    https://www.algemeiner.com/2017/07/31/decisive-majority-of-us-muslims-oppose-violence-against-civilians-new-survey-shows/
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited August 2017


    Most ISIS Terrorists don't use whatapp. And if those that do certainly won't if the goverent got its way. The source code for creating secure comms is widely available and it will simply move people onto different platforms.

    A fine example of the 'GCHQ are idiots, and I know far more then they do' syndrome.
    Not at all. The UN specialist on this was on the TV last night talking about this last night. He said that terror groups have moved to using platforms which are not based in Western countries, do not have to answer to western restrictions and do not have to surrender their encryption to any authorities. The overt action to force companies to surrender encryption which is now widespread public knowledge simply means that the quiet covert monitoring with some help from the social media companies which has been going on for a considerable amount of time has now been undermined because even the dumbest Bradford teenager knows normal lines of communication are not secure and should not be used.
    This. The worst part of snowdon leaks was not the obvious stuff ie that the government has kit to spy on people, but revelations of some of the things criminals thought were secure but NSA / GCHQ had abilities to hack into eg they had made good progress on a popular VPN protocol.

    Result was a near instance change to the encryption used in the protocol by all major providers.
  • Sean_F said:

    Off-topic:

    I came across this little gem of a website the other day. Find your location and see how the inexorable rise of the sea will affect you!
    http://flood.firetree.net/

    It turns out that, at 60 metres rise, I'll have a nice seaside property on the Isle of Cambourne ...

    Oh, and the London arguments on here will have sunk without trace ... ;)

    That's very interesting. A 2-3 m rise converts Thanet back into an island. A 5-7 m rise takes Eastern England back to about 1000 AD.
    Interestingly you could convert Thanet back into an island without any sealevel change at all. The Wantsum Channel is still at or below sea level and kept dry by artificial drainage. If you removed the sea defences at each end it would reflood.
  • TOPPING said:

    And then I can only imagine she is ignoring that advice. Because politicians keep coming out with totally ignorant nonsense on this stuff.

    I doubt that very much.
    Well it is total horseshit. You can't uninvent this technology.
    She's not suggesting you can.
    She is suggesting "real" people don't need it. I use secure end to end and vpn and I am neither a terrorist or a criminal and very much a real person. The IP I create is my livelihood and taking steps to protect myself is just plain sensible.
    But no one who describes themselves as a "sysadmin" can in any way be deemed a real person.
    Lol...Makes me think of the silicon valley show where they go to see a where their box will be deployed in data centre and they see all the mole like staff who are the system administrator for the operation.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,086
    On topic, Kensington Council is so tarnished that I wouldn't be surprised to see the Tories lose control. Labour will sweep the north, the LibDems could make gains in wards Labour cannot win, and it isn't inconceivable that Tory councillors could face challenges from independents.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    She is suggesting "real" people don't need it. I use secure end to end and vpn and I am neither a terrorist or a criminal and very much a real person. The IP I create is my livelihood and taking steps to protect myself is just plain sensible.

    Sure. But what she actually said was that most users of WhatsApp and similar applications use them primarily for the convenience rather than for the strong end-to-end encryption, which seems a pretty unexceptional observation given that, for example, people post massive amounts of information about themselves on Facebook.
    I'm sure she is right that most people choose whatsapp primarily for convenience. But that doesn't mean they don't value security.

    If it became routine and easy for people to break into whatsapp conversations, that would be a big deal I think, and might well seriously harm whatsapps business.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,086

    Sean_F said:

    Off-topic:

    I came across this little gem of a website the other day. Find your location and see how the inexorable rise of the sea will affect you!
    http://flood.firetree.net/

    It turns out that, at 60 metres rise, I'll have a nice seaside property on the Isle of Cambourne ...

    Oh, and the London arguments on here will have sunk without trace ... ;)

    That's very interesting. A 2-3 m rise converts Thanet back into an island. A 5-7 m rise takes Eastern England back to about 1000 AD.
    Interestingly you could convert Thanet back into an island without any sealevel change at all. The Wantsum Channel is still at or below sea level and kept dry by artificial drainage. If you removed the sea defences at each end it would reflood.
    Would any other nation be interested in taking it off our hands?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    rkrkrk said:

    She is suggesting "real" people don't need it. I use secure end to end and vpn and I am neither a terrorist or a criminal and very much a real person. The IP I create is my livelihood and taking steps to protect myself is just plain sensible.

    Sure. But what she actually said was that most users of WhatsApp and similar applications use them primarily for the convenience rather than for the strong end-to-end encryption, which seems a pretty unexceptional observation given that, for example, people post massive amounts of information about themselves on Facebook.
    I'm sure she is right that most people choose whatsapp primarily for convenience. But that doesn't mean they don't value security.

    If it became routine and easy for people to break into whatsapp conversations, that would be a big deal I think, and might well seriously harm whatsapps business.
    Whatsapp is a global communication tool.

    So the government is going to have a hard time enforcing weak encrpytion rules, unless they want to start up something along the lines of the great firewall of China for the UK - which would be thoroughly illiberal.

    I guess Rudd can chat and work with others (Primarily the US where Whatsapp and others are based) - which is where any enforced weak encryption will come from (And it seems she is doing this)

    But to act unilaterally on this is unworkable I think.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited August 2017
    rkrkrk said:

    If it became routine and easy for people to break into whatsapp conversations, that would be a big deal I think, and might well seriously harm whatsapps business.

    Maybe, but it's trivially easy to intercept emails (you don't even need to be GCHQ to do that), and easy to intercept landline phones and mobile phones, and people still use those for confidential stuff. More than they should do, in the case of email.

    What most people don't seem to understand about this whole issue its that it's not about intercepting the communications of sophisticated terrorists. It's much more about peripheral figures, through whom you might find an entry to the more sophisticated baddies.
  • IanB2 said:

    Sean_F said:

    Off-topic:

    I came across this little gem of a website the other day. Find your location and see how the inexorable rise of the sea will affect you!
    http://flood.firetree.net/

    It turns out that, at 60 metres rise, I'll have a nice seaside property on the Isle of Cambourne ...

    Oh, and the London arguments on here will have sunk without trace ... ;)

    That's very interesting. A 2-3 m rise converts Thanet back into an island. A 5-7 m rise takes Eastern England back to about 1000 AD.
    Interestingly you could convert Thanet back into an island without any sealevel change at all. The Wantsum Channel is still at or below sea level and kept dry by artificial drainage. If you removed the sea defences at each end it would reflood.
    Would any other nation be interested in taking it off our hands?
    We could sell it back to Doggerland. :)
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Pulpstar said:

    Whatsapp is a global communication tool.

    So the government is going to have a hard time enforcing weak encrpytion rules, unless they want to start up something along the lines of the great firewall of China for the UK - which would be thoroughly illiberal.

    I guess Rudd can chat and work with others (Primarily the US where Whatsapp and others are based) - which is where any enforced weak encryption will come from (And it seems she is doing this)

    But to act unilaterally on this is unworkable I think.

    The UK won't do anything unilaterally.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    The UK won't do anything unilaterally.

    Shh, Brussels is reading. You'll blow the government's negotiating strategy.
  • An interesting article from Stodge but I have to disagree. I think the Cons will hold on to all of Kensington, Westminster and Wandsworth.

    If you look at the last results for Kensington you can see the problem Labour have:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensington_and_Chelsea_London_Borough_Council_election,_2014

    Lab's strength is overwhelmingly concentrated in a few wards (which wasn't a problem for the parliamentary seat). They should be able to pick up the split St Helen's ward easily. Earls' Court and Chelsea Riverside are tough but winnable, maybe even Holland but after that?

    In the case of Wandsworth and Westminster it is worth remembering the Cons held these comfortably even at the height of Conservative unpopularity in the 1990s. Partly I suspect this is due to both boroughs having very low council tax.

    It's also worth mentioning what happened in Rotherham. Lab was expected to lose the council after the grooming scandal but still held on.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited August 2017
    rkrkrk said:

    She is suggesting "real" people don't need it. I use secure end to end and vpn and I am neither a terrorist or a criminal and very much a real person. The IP I create is my livelihood and taking steps to protect myself is just plain sensible.

    Sure. But what she actually said was that most users of WhatsApp and similar applications use them primarily for the convenience rather than for the strong end-to-end encryption, which seems a pretty unexceptional observation given that, for example, people post massive amounts of information about themselves on Facebook.
    I'm sure she is right that most people choose whatsapp primarily for convenience. But that doesn't mean they don't value security.

    If it became routine and easy for people to break into whatsapp conversations, that would be a big deal I think, and might well seriously harm whatsapps business.
    And if it became public knowledge that Whatsapp roled over to Western governments, they'd lose a massive proportion of their user base almost overnight, in favour of alternatives like the free and open source Signal which uses the same protocol.
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Just heard Salmond in full quality flow on Radio 5 Live

    "Donald Trump's opposition to independence should seal the deal for the SNP - and to do it on the basis of Scotland losing the British Open is typical. The tournament is called The Open and the headquarters is St Andrews which last time I checked was in Scotland. The Grand Canyon is a minor crevice compared to the vast chasm of ignorance of that man. The President of the United States is a complete and utter nincompoop"
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    scotslass said:

    Just heard Salmond in full quality flow on Radio 5 Live

    "Donald Trump's opposition to independence should seal the deal for the SNP - and to do it on the basis of Scotland losing the British Open is typical. The tournament is called The Open and the headquarters is St Andrews which last time I checked was in Scotland. The Grand Canyon is a minor crevice compared to the vast chasm of ignorance of that man. The President of the United States is a complete and utter nincompoop"

    Is Salmond still a thing?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    She is suggesting "real" people don't need it. I use secure end to end and vpn and I am neither a terrorist or a criminal and very much a real person. The IP I create is my livelihood and taking steps to protect myself is just plain sensible.

    Sure. But what she actually said was that most users of WhatsApp and similar applications use them primarily for the convenience rather than for the strong end-to-end encryption, which seems a pretty unexceptional observation given that, for example, people post massive amounts of information about themselves on Facebook.
    I'm sure she is right that most people choose whatsapp primarily for convenience. But that doesn't mean they don't value security.

    If it became routine and easy for people to break into whatsapp conversations, that would be a big deal I think, and might well seriously harm whatsapps business.
    And if it became public knowledge that Whatsapp roled over to Western governments, they'd lose a massive proportion of their user base almost overnight, in favour of alternatives like the free and open source Signal which uses the same protocol.
    I think you are overestimating how tech-savvy most people are - but certainly they would lose business.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Appropriately timed:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40802787

    The court heard how the members of the gang called themselves the Three Musketeers when exchanging encrypted messages on the Telegram app.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    scotslass said:

    Just heard Salmond in full quality flow on Radio 5 Live

    "Donald Trump's opposition to independence should seal the deal for the SNP - and to do it on the basis of Scotland losing the British Open is typical. The tournament is called The Open and the headquarters is St Andrews which last time I checked was in Scotland. The Grand Canyon is a minor crevice compared to the vast chasm of ignorance of that man. The President of the United States is a complete and utter nincompoop"

    and there was Eck dry humpimg the man's leg a few years back
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,759

    scotslass said:

    Just heard Salmond in full quality flow on Radio 5 Live

    "Donald Trump's opposition to independence should seal the deal for the SNP - and to do it on the basis of Scotland losing the British Open is typical. The tournament is called The Open and the headquarters is St Andrews which last time I checked was in Scotland. The Grand Canyon is a minor crevice compared to the vast chasm of ignorance of that man. The President of the United States is a complete and utter nincompoop"

    and there was Eck dry humpimg the man's leg a few years back
    Now there is a mental image I really could have done without.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    Pulpstar said:

    rkrkrk said:

    She is suggesting "real" people don't need it. I use secure end to end and vpn and I am neither a terrorist or a criminal and very much a real person. The IP I create is my livelihood and taking steps to protect myself is just plain sensible.

    Sure. But what she actually said was that most users of WhatsApp and similar applications use them primarily for the convenience rather than for the strong end-to-end encryption, which seems a pretty unexceptional observation given that, for example, people post massive amounts of information about themselves on Facebook.
    I'm sure she is right that most people choose whatsapp primarily for convenience. But that doesn't mean they don't value security.

    If it became routine and easy for people to break into whatsapp conversations, that would be a big deal I think, and might well seriously harm whatsapps business.
    Whatsapp is a global communication tool.

    So the government is going to have a hard time enforcing weak encrpytion rules, unless they want to start up something along the lines of the great firewall of China for the UK - which would be thoroughly illiberal.

    I guess Rudd can chat and work with others (Primarily the US where Whatsapp and others are based) - which is where any enforced weak encryption will come from (And it seems she is doing this)

    But to act unilaterally on this is unworkable I think.
    Rudd can do one thing only - pass a law that gives her the right to block certain parts of the Internet in the UK by closing access via UK mobile networks and ISPs. She and May, both tend to the authoritarian wing of Conservatism, and I rather suspect would have done this if they thought they could get it through parliament.
  • marke09marke09 Posts: 926
    Economic thinktank NIESR: UK exports will 'boom' GDP growth to shoot to almost 2% Higher wages post-Brexit
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    marke09 said:

    Economic thinktank NIESR: UK exports will 'boom' GDP growth to shoot to almost 2% Higher wages post-Brexit

    Blimey, even Jonathan Portes says that?
  • scotslassscotslass Posts: 912
    Alanbrooke

    Totally unfair. Salmond supported a billion dollar investment which Trump promised and then did not deliver. When Trump tried to bully him into vetoing wind energy Salmond said No and they ended up in Court which Salmond then won three times over.

    Pity Westminster polticians couldn't find the same backbone to say No to Trump. Instead soon we will all be choking on chicken.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    marke09 said:

    Economic thinktank NIESR: UK exports will 'boom' GDP growth to shoot to almost 2% Higher wages post-Brexit

    Blimey, even Jonathan Portes says that?
    Portes is a 'GDP total' obsessive - seeing rising GDP isn't always the bringer of great tidings that economists like to believe. We had GDP growth in the 2000-08 period, but for many people life did not improve (or the improvement didn't survive the constriction of money supply), and the growth was very uneven. A repeat of loose money/cheap labour led GDP boosts won't have an automatically positive effect on the UK
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 755
    edited August 2017
    It doesn't matter whether people value security. It matters whether security is valuable.

    Wait till they learn that the hacker known as 4chan has accessed everything about them because we weren't allowed to have containers that other people can't see inside.
  • scotslass said:

    Alanbrooke

    Totally unfair. Salmond supported a billion dollar investment which Trump promised and then did not deliver. When Trump tried to bully him into vetoing wind energy Salmond said No and they ended up in Court which Salmond then won three times over.

    Pity Westminster polticians couldn't find the same backbone to say No to Trump. Instead soon we will all be choking on chicken.

    Not if you're a vegetarian :)
  • Turnout numbers for Sunday's controversial vote in Venezuela were "tampered with", the company running the polling has alleged.
    The CEO of Smartmatic, Antonio Mugica, made the comments at a press conference in London.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    scotslass said:

    Alanbrooke

    Totally unfair. Salmond supported a billion dollar investment which Trump promised and then did not deliver. When Trump tried to bully him into vetoing wind energy Salmond said No and they ended up in Court which Salmond then won three times over.
    Pity Westminster polticians couldn't find the same backbone to say No to Trump. Instead soon we will all be choking on chicken.

    Not if you're a vegetarian :)
    I bet the Americans wash their fruit and veg in chlorine as well. And Mrs May caves in and lets them export it to us. What we need is the strong arm of the EU to protect us from unhealthy American exploitation.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited August 2017
    The three musketeers had previous....

    Neighbours Ali and Hussain have previously been jailed for terrorism offences.

    They had attempted to join an al-Qaeda training camp in Pakistan in 2011. However, when they arrived back in the UK they were arrested and the following year both pleaded guilty to engaging in conduct in preparation of terrorist acts.

    The trial heard the pair first met Rahman - who had been convicted of possessing an al-Qaeda magazine - while in prison.
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 755

    rkrkrk said:

    If it became routine and easy for people to break into whatsapp conversations, that would be a big deal I think, and might well seriously harm whatsapps business.

    Maybe, but it's trivially easy to intercept emails (you don't even need to be GCHQ to do that), and easy to intercept landline phones and mobile phones, and people still use those for confidential stuff. More than they should do, in the case of email.

    What most people don't seem to understand about this whole issue its that it's not about intercepting the communications of sophisticated terrorists. It's much more about peripheral figures, through whom you might find an entry to the more sophisticated baddies.
    Doing so makes your communications interceptable by peripheral figures, which makes them accessible to more sophisticated baddies.

    Have fun with that.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:

    rkrkrk said:

    She is suggesting "real" people don't need it. I use secure end to end and vpn and I am neither a terrorist or a criminal and very much a real person. The IP I create is my livelihood and taking steps to protect myself is just plain sensible.

    Sure. But what she actually said was that most users of WhatsApp and similar applications use them primarily for the convenience rather than for the strong end-to-end encryption, which seems a pretty unexceptional observation given that, for example, people post massive amounts of information about themselves on Facebook.
    I'm sure she is right that most people choose whatsapp primarily for convenience. But that doesn't mean they don't value security.

    If it became routine and easy for people to break into whatsapp conversations, that would be a big deal I think, and might well seriously harm whatsapps business.
    And if it became public knowledge that Whatsapp roled over to Western governments, they'd lose a massive proportion of their user base almost overnight, in favour of alternatives like the free and open source Signal which uses the same protocol.
    I think you are overestimating how tech-savvy most people are - but certainly they would lose business.
    Hopefully i'm not, but while there will be an amount of inertia in the UK and US, in other counties the rebellion would be a tidal wave if they thought that the US and UK governments were spying on them.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    PClipp - I think one of the posters here has pointed out the chlorine in our drinking water. And "Almost one in five birds was highly dangerous, figures published on Thursday showed. In almost 7 per cent of cases, the bacteria were present on the outside packaging of fresh whole chickens. " http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/shopping-and-consumer-news/11436503/Every-chicken-could-give-you-food-poisoning.html. And 100 die every year from this.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited August 2017
    PClipp said:

    scotslass said:

    Alanbrooke

    Totally unfair. Salmond supported a billion dollar investment which Trump promised and then did not deliver. When Trump tried to bully him into vetoing wind energy Salmond said No and they ended up in Court which Salmond then won three times over.
    Pity Westminster polticians couldn't find the same backbone to say No to Trump. Instead soon we will all be choking on chicken.

    Not if you're a vegetarian :)
    I bet the Americans wash their fruit and veg in chlorine as well. And Mrs May caves in and lets them export it to us. What we need is the strong arm of the EU to protect us from unhealthy American exploitation.
    It's a good job the EU has always protected the food chain. I mean I wouldn't like to think that my beef lasange was actually horse lasange, made from broken down Romanian nags of untraceable lineage.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    Sandpit said:


    Hopefully i'm not, but while there will be an amount of inertia in the UK and US, in other counties the rebellion would be a tidal wave if they thought that the US and UK governments were spying on them.

    I think my mum/other family members are very unlikely to move messaging application because of something like this. They partially assume that the government can see everything anyway and the barrier of downloading a new application alone is high.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited August 2017
    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:


    Hopefully i'm not, but while there will be an amount of inertia in the UK and US, in other counties the rebellion would be a tidal wave if they thought that the US and UK governments were spying on them.

    I think my mum/other family members are very unlikely to move messaging application because of something like this. They partially assume that the government can see everything anyway and the barrier of downloading a new application alone is high.
    These things can change very quickly. MySpace implosion. MSN messenger. The tech world is littered with websites and apps that lost popularity rapidly.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited August 2017
    Birmingham terror plot: Inside the sting that caught four jihadis
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40716747

    Do we need to really know MI5 had a nice line in fake businesses and have this info widely communicated?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good afternoon, everyone.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535

    Pulpstar said:

    Whatsapp is a global communication tool.

    So the government is going to have a hard time enforcing weak encrpytion rules, unless they want to start up something along the lines of the great firewall of China for the UK - which would be thoroughly illiberal.

    I guess Rudd can chat and work with others (Primarily the US where Whatsapp and others are based) - which is where any enforced weak encryption will come from (And it seems she is doing this)

    But to act unilaterally on this is unworkable I think.

    The UK won't do anything unilaterally.
    That's the problem. Even if I trusted the UK government to not abuse a UK backdoor*, I can't trust the Americans, and they will want one too, and I certainly don't trust Russians. No other country feels obligated to pay even lip service to my UK rights.

    What Rudd is actually asking for is for the likes of WhatsApp to in effect remove all meaningful encryption and therefore confidentiality and privacy from such services, as one by one countries get the modifications made that they want and we end up with a situation where even if our own government is not routinely reading our communications some other government will be doing so.

    I'm certain that the security services must get this, that there won't be a UK EYES ONLY backdoor but a whole series of backdoors until major internet services are full of holes and routinely exploited for mass surveillance. Perhaps that's what they want, it will be a trade off they are willing to make that Russians and Chinese will read our communications as well as GCHQ. It sure as hell sounds to me like they have forgotten the protection part of their jobs.

    * I don't, they have form.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    rkrkrk said:

    Sandpit said:


    Hopefully i'm not, but while there will be an amount of inertia in the UK and US, in other counties the rebellion would be a tidal wave if they thought that the US and UK governments were spying on them.

    I think my mum/other family members are very unlikely to move messaging application because of something like this. They partially assume that the government can see everything anyway and the barrier of downloading a new application alone is high.
    These things can change very quickly. MySpace implosion. MSN messenger. The tech world is littered with websites and apps that lost popularity rapidly.
    This is very true and we don't know what the future holds.
    But I think once you get older generations adopting you have a bit more staying power. They don't like switching so much...
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    PClipp said:

    scotslass said:

    Alanbrooke

    Totally unfair. Salmond supported a billion dollar investment which Trump promised and then did not deliver. When Trump tried to bully him into vetoing wind energy Salmond said No and they ended up in Court which Salmond then won three times over.
    Pity Westminster polticians couldn't find the same backbone to say No to Trump. Instead soon we will all be choking on chicken.

    Not if you're a vegetarian :)
    I bet the Americans wash their fruit and veg in chlorine as well. And Mrs May caves in and lets them export it to us. What we need is the strong arm of the EU to protect us from unhealthy American exploitation.
    It's a good job the EU has always protected the food chain. I mean I wouldn't like to think that my beef lasange was actually horse lasange, made from broken down Romanian nags of untraceable lineage.
    You do realise the difference between legal and illegal, don't you?
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    PClipp said:

    scotslass said:

    Alanbrooke

    Totally unfair. Salmond supported a billion dollar investment which Trump promised and then did not deliver. When Trump tried to bully him into vetoing wind energy Salmond said No and they ended up in Court which Salmond then won three times over.
    Pity Westminster polticians couldn't find the same backbone to say No to Trump. Instead soon we will all be choking on chicken.

    Not if you're a vegetarian :)
    I bet the Americans wash their fruit and veg in chlorine as well.
    Have you ever been swimming in a public pool?
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    PClipp said:

    scotslass said:

    Alanbrooke

    Totally unfair. Salmond supported a billion dollar investment which Trump promised and then did not deliver. When Trump tried to bully him into vetoing wind energy Salmond said No and they ended up in Court which Salmond then won three times over.
    Pity Westminster polticians couldn't find the same backbone to say No to Trump. Instead soon we will all be choking on chicken.

    Not if you're a vegetarian :)
    I bet the Americans wash their fruit and veg in chlorine as well. And Mrs May caves in and lets them export it to us. What we need is the strong arm of the EU to protect us from unhealthy American exploitation.
    It's a good job the EU has always protected the food chain. I mean I wouldn't like to think that my beef lasange was actually horse lasange, made from broken down Romanian nags of untraceable lineage.
    You do realise the difference between legal and illegal, don't you?
    The only thing worse than a competent strong-arm government is an incompetent strong-arm government...
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    PClipp said:

    scotslass said:

    Alanbrooke

    Totally unfair. Salmond supported a billion dollar investment which Trump promised and then did not deliver. When Trump tried to bully him into vetoing wind energy Salmond said No and they ended up in Court which Salmond then won three times over.
    Pity Westminster polticians couldn't find the same backbone to say No to Trump. Instead soon we will all be choking on chicken.

    Not if you're a vegetarian :)
    I bet the Americans wash their fruit and veg in chlorine as well. And Mrs May caves in and lets them export it to us. What we need is the strong arm of the EU to protect us from unhealthy American exploitation.
    It's a good job the EU has always protected the food chain. I mean I wouldn't like to think that my beef lasange was actually horse lasange, made from broken down Romanian nags of untraceable lineage.
    You do realise the difference between legal and illegal, don't you?
    OF course, when you have a market, you have to rely on all the authorities in that market being free from both incompetence and corruption. Hence the Nag meat. Legal and illegal in Romania is not a distinction I'd like to rely on too much.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    edited August 2017
    Update on the European Medicines Agency move...

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b13c0c62-76f3-11e7-b874-f49df312558b

    "Britain is on the hook to pay a spiralling €582.5 million bill for relocating the agency as part of EU demands for a Brexit financial settlement, with the bulk of costs arising from a botched rental contract for its Canary Wharf offices. "
  • MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 755
    There is a new thread to fill with degeneracy
  • NEW THREAD

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