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SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited August 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How Brexit is blinding us resulting in other massive issues being ignored

 

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  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    First!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Good thread - and while: Britain is set to fall years behind its cohort in dealing with them. So much for making Britain more competitive. may turn out to be true, as we have seen from M. Macron's plummeting poll ratings in France - even before he gets started our cohort may find themselves distracted too.

    Two (or more) years of government not doing very much may not be an unmitigated disaster.....

    Meanwhile, in a heroic Trump distraction effort, Nige is blaming the EU for Barcelona:

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/08/17/nigel-farage-blames-eu-leaders-for-continued-isis-terror-in-europe.html

    FPT - James Murdoch letter on Trump & Nazis:

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/james-murdoch-rips-trump-standing-up-nazis-is-essential-1030778
  • Whilst I think the basic premise of Alastair's article is correct, I am not sure the international examples he gives are indicative of Brexit blindness. Both the fall of Mosul and the Qatar/Saudi spat have been extensively reported and both have been met with a degree of 'meh' by the public.

    The fall of Mosul is great but is just one more part of a long campaign against ISIS and no one can seriously believe that even if Raqqa falls it will mean the end of ISIS.

    As for the Gulf cold war that is generally viewed as a case of a plague on both your houses. Personally my sympathies lie far more with Qatar than with Saudi and the idea that this isolation of Qatar is anything to do with their attitude to terrorism is just laughable given the long established and well funded Saudi support for terrorism both around the world and in any neighbouring country that doesn't share their particular brand of Islam.

    I really struggle to see that either of these news items would have garnered - or deserved - any more interest in the UK even if Brexit had never happened.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540


    As for the Gulf cold war that is generally viewed as a case of a plague on both your houses. Personally my sympathies lie far more with Qatar than with Saudi and the idea that this isolation of Qatar is anything to do with their attitude to terrorism is just laughable given the long established and well funded Saudi support for terrorism both around the world and in any neighbouring country that doesn't share their particular brand of Islam.

    I really struggle to see that either of these news items would have garnered - or deserved - any more interest in the UK even if Brexit had never happened.

    I think the Saudi's primary interest is in silencing Al Jazeera - which would be a very bad thing - and also beyond trying to get everyone to get along I'm not sure what more Britain should do about it.......I think we've had quite enough adventures in the Middle East to be going on with.....
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    Third!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038


    As for the Gulf cold war that is generally viewed as a case of a plague on both your houses. Personally my sympathies lie far more with Qatar than with Saudi and the idea that this isolation of Qatar is anything to do with their attitude to terrorism is just laughable given the long established and well funded Saudi support for terrorism both around the world and in any neighbouring country that doesn't share their particular brand of Islam.

    I really struggle to see that either of these news items would have garnered - or deserved - any more interest in the UK even if Brexit had never happened.

    I think the Saudi's primary interest is in silencing Al Jazeera - which would be a very bad thing - and also beyond trying to get everyone to get along I'm not sure what more Britain should do about it.......I think we've had quite enough adventures in the Middle East to be going on with.....
    We haven't had a great record of successful interventions in the Middle East going back 100 years, let's be honest.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    On topic, Alastair is right about Brexit crowding most other stuff out, which is both an argument for getting Brexit agreed done and dusted as soon as possible, and also to start talking about the challenges of the future and how we'll use our new powers.

    I hear precious little talk or debate about the latter.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    Good thread - and while: Britain is set to fall years behind its cohort in dealing with them. So much for making Britain more competitive. may turn out to be true, as we have seen from M. Macron's plummeting poll ratings in France - even before he gets started our cohort may find themselves distracted too.

    Two (or more) years of government not doing very much may not be an unmitigated disaster.....

    Meanwhile, in a heroic Trump distraction effort, Nige is blaming the EU for Barcelona:

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/08/17/nigel-farage-blames-eu-leaders-for-continued-isis-terror-in-europe.html

    FPT - James Murdoch letter on Trump & Nazis:

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/james-murdoch-rips-trump-standing-up-nazis-is-essential-1030778

    I'm delighted if the Government just leaves me alone.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Commiserations to HYUFD from last night.

    I'm sure it was well fought and sometimes that sadly isn't enough.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    This map (hat-tip reddit) might throw some light on domestic politics. It shows the most popular soft-drinks by country.
    https://i.redd.it/i2l1quvt8lfz.png
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited August 2017

    This map (hat-tip reddit) might throw some light on domestic politics. It shows the most popular soft-drinks by country.
    https://i.redd.it/i2l1quvt8lfz.png

    Hm, North Korea and Western Sahara?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    RobD said:

    This map (hat-tip reddit) might throw some light on domestic politics. It shows the most popular soft-drinks by country.
    https://i.redd.it/i2l1quvt8lfz.png

    Hm, North Korea and Western Sahara?
    It has been tweeted by Irn-Bru, if that helps.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    This map (hat-tip reddit) might throw some light on domestic politics. It shows the most popular soft-drinks by country.
    https://i.redd.it/i2l1quvt8lfz.png

    Hm, North Korea and Western Sahara?
    It has been tweeted by Irn-Bru, if that helps.
    As I said, hmmmm. :D
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Trump exit betting: CarlottaVance on the last thread drew attention to reports that American charities or non-profit organisations are pulling events from Trump's Mar-a-Lago resort.

    My own belief (fwiw) is that if Trump does leave office early, it will be by resignation to rescue the family business rather than through impeachment.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    Trump exit betting: CarlottaVance on the last thread drew attention to reports that American charities or non-profit organisations are pulling events from Trump's Mar-a-Lago resort.

    My own belief (fwiw) is that if Trump does leave office early, it will be by resignation to rescue the family business rather than through impeachment.

    There is a long, long way to go before the Presidency becomes a net negative for Trump financially. See for instance his hotel which was projected to lose $2m in the first 4 months of 2017, but instead has made $2m profit.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-dc-hotel-turns-2-million-profit-in-four-months/2017/08/10/23bd97f0-7e02-11e7-9d08-b79f191668ed_story.html?utm_term=.349dc70eee3e
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Good thread - and while: Britain is set to fall years behind its cohort in dealing with them. So much for making Britain more competitive. may turn out to be true, as we have seen from M. Macron's plummeting poll ratings in France - even before he gets started our cohort may find themselves distracted too.

    Two (or more) years of government not doing very much may not be an unmitigated disaster.....

    Meanwhile, in a heroic Trump distraction effort, Nige is blaming the EU for Barcelona:

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/08/17/nigel-farage-blames-eu-leaders-for-continued-isis-terror-in-europe.html

    FPT - James Murdoch letter on Trump & Nazis:

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/james-murdoch-rips-trump-standing-up-nazis-is-essential-1030778

    I'm delighted if the Government just leaves me alone.
    In terms of the economy, the big changes we needed in the seventies were done by Thatcher in the eighties - now instead of rejoicing in highest ever employment the FT frets about stagnant productivity - which is an issue - but beyond education, hardly the government's job.

    The 'elephant in the room' is social care for the elderly - but I doubt any politicians are in a hurry to propose anything on that.....so a couple of years of focussing on BREXIT may be no bad thing - and we can point and laugh at look on in wonder as 'Jupiter' Macron reforms France's Labour laws.......
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    edited August 2017
    Good article, thank you.

    Of all the issues listed I think housing is the biggest domestic issue. Finding somewhere decent to live at a reasonable cost is becoming impossible in London and this is spreading elsewhere. It affects the future of our children and, for those with property already, our old age - if no-one can buy how much of a "pension" can that property be?

    From purely anecdotal reports it is something which bothers my children and their friends and affects their decisions re careers etc. It is making them less than enamoured of the current economic/political settlement.

    Britain needs to start building good quality homes and being more imaginative in the use it makes of existing space.

    Off topic: a depressing sign of the times that another major terrorist attack gets barely a mention these days.

    Finally re what Foxnsox said on the ladt thread: "If I were a regular Joe at such a rally, I would do a reverse ferret very quickly, just as I would if I were to be at anti-war rally if people started flying Hamas flags and making anti-semetic remarks." - absolutely right. By the company you keep you will be judged. But not all those who some seem to think are regular Joes or nice people, do do such reverse ferrets at such rallies. Some even choose to speak at them.

  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Cyclefree said:

    By the company you keep you will be judged. But not all those who some seem to think are regular Joes or nice people, do do such reverse ferrets at such rallies. Some even choose to speak at them.

    Indeed

    https://twitter.com/sunpolitics/status/898424337111203842

    Also

    For Mr Corbyn, the American president epitomises reactionary bigotry. For Mr Trump, the Labour leader (assuming he knows who he is), exemplifies the business-hating, government-loving, politically correct left.

    Yet both men are falling into the same trap, blurring distinctions through muddled thinking and political cowardice.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/both-trump-and-corbyn-are-political-cowards-vkgzqsx0p
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038

    Good thread - and while: Britain is set to fall years behind its cohort in dealing with them. So much for making Britain more competitive. may turn out to be true, as we have seen from M. Macron's plummeting poll ratings in France - even before he gets started our cohort may find themselves distracted too.

    Two (or more) years of government not doing very much may not be an unmitigated disaster.....

    Meanwhile, in a heroic Trump distraction effort, Nige is blaming the EU for Barcelona:

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/08/17/nigel-farage-blames-eu-leaders-for-continued-isis-terror-in-europe.html

    FPT - James Murdoch letter on Trump & Nazis:

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/james-murdoch-rips-trump-standing-up-nazis-is-essential-1030778

    I'm delighted if the Government just leaves me alone.
    In terms of the economy, the big changes we needed in the seventies were done by Thatcher in the eighties - now instead of rejoicing in highest ever employment the FT frets about stagnant productivity - which is an issue - but beyond education, hardly the government's job.

    The 'elephant in the room' is social care for the elderly - but I doubt any politicians are in a hurry to propose anything on that.....so a couple of years of focussing on BREXIT may be no bad thing - and we can point and laugh at look on in wonder as 'Jupiter' Macron reforms France's Labour laws.......
    We might have to relearn Thatcher's lessons all over again if Corbyn gets in.

    Some of the naivety shown by some of the under 35s on socialism is extremely worrying.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited August 2017
    Cyclefree said:

    Good article, thank you.

    Of all the issues listed I think housing is the biggest domestic issue. Finding somewhere decent to live at a reasonable cost is becoming impossible in London and this is spreading elsewhere. It affects the future of our children and, for those with property already, our old age - if no-one can buy how much of a "pension" can that property be?

    From purely anecdotal reports it is something which bothers my children and their friends and affects their decisions re careers etc. It is making them less than enamoured of the current economic/political settlement.

    Britain needs to start building good quality homes and being more imaginative in the use it makes of existing space.

    It is not just housing. The cost of living, and eating, is going up regardless of what the inflation tractor stats say, and this may explain the rise in personal debt in recent months: customers are putting their cornflakes onto credit cards.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Cyclefree said:

    Good article, thank you.

    Of all the issues listed I think housing is the biggest domestic issue. Finding somewhere decent to live at a reasonable cost is becoming impossible in London and this is spreading elsewhere. It affects the future of our children and, for those with property already, our old age - if no-one can buy how much of a "pension" can that property be?

    From purely anecdotal reports it is something which bothers my children and their friends and affects their decisions re careers etc. It is making them less than enamoured of the current economic/political settlement.

    Britain needs to start building good quality homes and being more imaginative in the use it makes of existing space.

    Off topic: a depressing sign of the times that another major terrorist attack gets barely a mention these days.

    Finally re what Foxnsox said on the ladt thread: "If I were a regular Joe at such a rally, I would do a reverse ferret very quickly, just as I would if I were to be at anti-war rally if people started flying Hamas flags and making anti-semetic remarks." - absolutely right. By the company you keep you will be judged. But not all those who some seem to think are regular Joes or nice people, do do such reverse ferrets at such rallies. Some even choose to speak at them.

    By not dealing with housing for young people, low entry wages, and ridiculously high interest rates of over 6% for student debt, the Tories are building up a dangerous political tidal wave against them that could sweep them from office for years, IMHO.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Good thread - and while: Britain is set to fall years behind its cohort in dealing with them. So much for making Britain more competitive. may turn out to be true, as we have seen from M. Macron's plummeting poll ratings in France - even before he gets started our cohort may find themselves distracted too.

    Two (or more) years of government not doing very much may not be an unmitigated disaster.....

    Meanwhile, in a heroic Trump distraction effort, Nige is blaming the EU for Barcelona:

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/08/17/nigel-farage-blames-eu-leaders-for-continued-isis-terror-in-europe.html

    FPT - James Murdoch letter on Trump & Nazis:

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/james-murdoch-rips-trump-standing-up-nazis-is-essential-1030778

    I'm delighted if the Government just leaves me alone.
    In terms of the economy, the big changes we needed in the seventies were done by Thatcher in the eighties - now instead of rejoicing in highest ever employment the FT frets about stagnant productivity - which is an issue - but beyond education, hardly the government's job.

    The 'elephant in the room' is social care for the elderly - but I doubt any politicians are in a hurry to propose anything on that.....so a couple of years of focussing on BREXIT may be no bad thing - and we can point and laugh at look on in wonder as 'Jupiter' Macron reforms France's Labour laws.......
    We might have to relearn Thatcher's lessons all over again if Corbyn gets in.

    Some of the naivety shown by some of the under 35s on socialism is extremely worrying.
    There is a naivety shown by those who think that the current 30-year settlement is somehow a given. It is not. It needs to be shown to work for the young and not just for those who lived through the Thatcher years and earlier.

    One of Thatcher's most popular policies was opening up the housing market. Now her successors are presiding over its closure to anyone other than the very rich, many of them foreign who treat London property as a bank. That is causing resentment, righly so IMO.

    I despise Corbyn's socialism as much as anyone. But I look at the future for my children and see debt, no chance of a home and restricted life choices as a result. Criticising them for naivety about Corbyn is self-indulgent. We are being naive in thinking that they should be in favour of things as they are.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, everyone.

    Miss Cyclefree, I agree.

    Mr. P, very good news the attack was stopped. I do wonder if this use of vehicles as murder weapons will end when the last vestiges of those who've been to/trained by ISIS are dead, or whether it's here to stay.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    Cyclefree said:

    Good article, thank you.

    Of all the issues listed I think housing is the biggest domestic issue. Finding somewhere decent to live at a reasonable cost is becoming impossible in London and this is spreading elsewhere. It affects the future of our children and, for those with property already, our old age - if no-one can buy how much of a "pension" can that property be?

    From purely anecdotal reports it is something which bothers my children and their friends and affects their decisions re careers etc. It is making them less than enamoured of the current economic/political settlement.

    Britain needs to start building good quality homes and being more imaginative in the use it makes of existing space.

    Off topic: a depressing sign of the times that another major terrorist attack gets barely a mention these days.

    Finally re what Foxnsox said on the ladt thread: "If I were a regular Joe at such a rally, I would do a reverse ferret very quickly, just as I would if I were to be at anti-war rally if people started flying Hamas flags and making anti-semetic remarks." - absolutely right. By the company you keep you will be judged. But not all those who some seem to think are regular Joes or nice people, do do such reverse ferrets at such rallies. Some even choose to speak at them.

    By not dealing with housing for young people, low entry wages, and ridiculously high interest rates of over 6% for student debt, the Tories are building up a dangerous political tidal wave against them that could sweep them from office for years, IMHO.
    There are quite a few ‘young people’s issues’ where both Tory and the Coalition Governments seemed to choose inaction in favour of 'something for the older voters’.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Good thread - and while: Britain is set to fall years behind its cohort in dealing with them. So much for making Britain more competitive. may turn out to be true, as we have seen from M. Macron's plummeting poll ratings in France - even before he gets started our cohort may find themselves distracted too.

    Two (or more) years of government not doing very much may not be an unmitigated disaster.....

    Meanwhile, in a heroic Trump distraction effort, Nige is blaming the EU for Barcelona:

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/08/17/nigel-farage-blames-eu-leaders-for-continued-isis-terror-in-europe.html

    FPT - James Murdoch letter on Trump & Nazis:

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/james-murdoch-rips-trump-standing-up-nazis-is-essential-1030778

    I'm delighted if the Government just leaves me alone.
    In terms of the economy, the big changes we needed in the seventies were done by Thatcher in the eighties - now instead of rejoicing in highest ever employment the FT frets about stagnant productivity - which is an issue - but beyond education, hardly the government's job.

    The 'elephant in the room' is social care for the elderly - but I doubt any politicians are in a hurry to propose anything on that.....so a couple of years of focussing on BREXIT may be no bad thing - and we can point and laugh at look on in wonder as 'Jupiter' Macron reforms France's Labour laws.......
    We might have to relearn Thatcher's lessons all over again if Corbyn gets in.

    Some of the naivety shown by some of the under 35s on socialism is extremely worrying.
    Thatcher's main lesson being to have not one but two magic money trees: privatisation receipts and North Sea oil revenues. Where New Labour went wrong was only having one: spectrum sales.
  • A quick thought on the attack in Barcelona: if you want to see where nationalism ends up look at the response. Two entirely separate ones are currently taking place - one by the Spanish government, the other by the Catalan one. They are talking to different people on the ground, working with different police forced and they are even holding separate news conferences. This is the consequence of years in which nationalists in Madrid and Barcelona have glared angrily at each other in place of looking for common ground. We'll find out, no doubt, whether political hostility led to a lack of shared intelligence that hampered the creation of a strategy that might have prevented yesterday's events, but as someone who loves Catalonia and Spain generally, what is now unfolding makes me furious.

    The King of Spain will be in Barcelona today for a minute's silence in the heart of the City - the Placa de Catalunya, which is at the top of the Ramblas. I only hope he gets a civil reception from the Catalan nationalist, political and in the crowd. That I'm concerned he might not says it all.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,586
    Cyclefree said:

    Good article, thank you.

    Of all the issues listed I think housing is the biggest domestic issue. Finding somewhere decent to live at a reasonable cost is becoming impossible in London and this is spreading elsewhere. It affects the future of our children and, for those with property already, our old age - if no-one can buy how much of a "pension" can that property be?

    From purely anecdotal reports it is something which bothers my children and their friends and affects their decisions re careers etc. It is making them less than enamoured of the current economic/political settlement.

    Britain needs to start building good quality homes and being more imaginative in the use it makes of existing space...

    Absolutely agree about the housing issue - I was about to post something along the same lines. And it's perhaps one issue where Brexit is no excuse at all as a distraction.
    Sitting back, doing nothing, and hoping the Macron will make a mess of his domestic policy as some sort of consolation, as Carlotta suggests, would be a pretty pathetic way to conduct the next few years of government, irrespective of any party political considerations.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881



    Thatcher's main lesson being to have not one but two magic money trees: privatisation receipts and North Sea oil revenues. Where New Labour went wrong was only having one: spectrum sales.

    The Norwegians spent/saved their oil revenues better - most people seem to agree on that.
    But did they also manage the oil industry better?

    This article points out they generated twice the revenue per barrel for the state compared to the UK, for a number of reasons. Headline conclusion:

    "given political stability and competent institutions, a state can have both a relatively high tax burden on its industry and direct ownership of assets, and deliver more revenue for its citizens and still attract investment."

    https://resourcegovernance.org/blog/did-uk-miss-out-£400-billion-worth-oil-revenue
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Cyclefree said:

    Good thread - and while: Britain is set to fall years behind its cohort in dealing with them. So much for making Britain more competitive. may turn out to be true, as we have seen from M. Macron's plummeting poll ratings in France - even before he gets started our cohort may find themselves distracted too.

    Two (or more) years of government not doing very much may not be an unmitigated disaster.....

    Meanwhile, in a heroic Trump distraction effort, Nige is blaming the EU for Barcelona:

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/08/17/nigel-farage-blames-eu-leaders-for-continued-isis-terror-in-europe.html

    FPT - James Murdoch letter on Trump & Nazis:

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/james-murdoch-rips-trump-standing-up-nazis-is-essential-1030778

    I'm delighted if the Government just leaves me alone.
    In terms of the economy, the big changes we needed in the seventies were done by Thatcher in the eighties - now instead of rejoicing in highest ever employment the FT frets about stagnant productivity - which is an issue - but beyond education, hardly the government's job.

    The 'elephant in the room' is social care for the elderly - but I doubt any politicians are in a hurry to propose anything on that.....so a couple of years of focussing on BREXIT may be no bad thing - and we can point and laugh at look on in wonder as 'Jupiter' Macron reforms France's Labour laws.......
    We might have to relearn Thatcher's lessons all over again if Corbyn gets in.

    Some of the naivety shown by some of the under 35s on socialism is extremely worrying.
    There is a naivety shown by those who think that the current 30-year settlement is somehow a given. It is not. It needs to be shown to work for the young and not just for those who lived through the Thatcher years and earlier.

    One of Thatcher's most popular policies was opening up the housing market. Now her successors are presiding over its closure to anyone other than the very rich, many of them foreign who treat London property as a bank. That is causing resentment, righly so IMO.

    I despise Corbyn's socialism as much as anyone. But I look at the future for my children and see debt, no chance of a home and restricted life choices as a result. Criticising them for naivety about Corbyn is self-indulgent. We are being naive in thinking that they should be in favour of things as they are.
    I agree with you.
  • Housing is just a symptom of the inter generational fight in the uk. My parents are retired and have 6 bedrooms in the 2 houses they own in SE England. They are not unusual. Think pensions, over investment in social care, NHS and all the other issues that benefit our Senior generation. The young get student debt and new taxes.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Observer, leaving aside the fact Madrid won't nod it through, if Catalonia votes for independence and gets it, is their plan for a new head of state? Just curious.

    Interesting and depressing bit of info on the parallel responses.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Good article, thank you.

    Of all the issues listed I think housing is the biggest domestic issue. Finding somewhere decent to live at a reasonable cost is becoming impossible in London and this is spreading elsewhere. It affects the future of our children and, for those with property already, our old age - if no-one can buy how much of a "pension" can that property be?

    From purely anecdotal reports it is something which bothers my children and their friends and affects their decisions re careers etc. It is making them less than enamoured of the current economic/political settlement.

    Britain needs to start building good quality homes and being more imaginative in the use it makes of existing space.

    Off topic: a depressing sign of the times that another major terrorist attack gets barely a mention these days.

    Finally re what Foxnsox said on the ladt thread: "If I were a regular Joe at such a rally, I would do a reverse ferret very quickly, just as I would if I were to be at anti-war rally if people started flying Hamas flags and making anti-semetic remarks." - absolutely right. By the company you keep you will be judged. But not all those who some seem to think are regular Joes or nice people, do do such reverse ferrets at such rallies. Some even choose to speak at them.

    By not dealing with housing for young people, low entry wages, and ridiculously high interest rates of over 6% for student debt, the Tories are building up a dangerous political tidal wave against them that could sweep them from office for years, IMHO.
    There are quite a few ‘young people’s issues’ where both Tory and the Coalition Governments seemed to choose inaction in favour of 'something for the older voters’.
    Under Cameron and Osborne the Conservatives forgot they need to be the party of aspiration. Instead they lapsed into becoming the party of privilege.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    Good article, thank you.

    Of all the issues listed I think housing is the biggest domestic issue. Finding somewhere decent to live at a reasonable cost is becoming impossible in London and this is spreading elsewhere. It affects the future of our children and, for those with property already, our old age - if no-one can buy how much of a "pension" can that property be?

    From purely anecdotal reports it is something which bothers my children and their friends and affects their decisions re careers etc. It is making them less than enamoured of the current economic/political settlement.

    Britain needs to start building good quality homes and being more imaginative in the use it makes of existing space.

    Off topic: a depressing sign of the times that another major terrorist attack gets barely a mention these days.

    Finally re what Foxnsox said on the ladt thread: "If I were a regular Joe at such a rally, I would do a reverse ferret very quickly, just as I would if I were to be at anti-war rally if people started flying Hamas flags and making anti-semetic remarks." - absolutely right. By the company you keep you will be judged. But not all those who some seem to think are regular Joes or nice people, do do such reverse ferrets at such rallies. Some even choose to speak at them.

    By not dealing with housing for young people, low entry wages, and ridiculously high interest rates of over 6% for student debt, the Tories are building up a dangerous political tidal wave against them that could sweep them from office for years, IMHO.
    There are quite a few ‘young people’s issues’ where both Tory and the Coalition Governments seemed to choose inaction in favour of 'something for the older voters’.
    A mistake IMO. Older voters have children and grandchildren - and care about them too.

    One reason why I want to carry on working rather than live on my pension/savings is that I want to be in a position to help my children and give them more choices than they would otherwise have.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Commiserations to HYUFD from last night.

    I'm sure it was well fought and sometimes that sadly isn't enough.

    Morning all. Just catching up, a good effort from @HYUFD, better luck next time. Well done to all those to stand for elections.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Cyclefree said:

    Good article, thank you.

    Of all the issues listed I think housing is the biggest domestic issue. Finding somewhere decent to live at a reasonable cost is becoming impossible in London and this is spreading elsewhere. It affects the future of our children and, for those with property already, our old age - if no-one can buy how much of a "pension" can that property be?

    From purely anecdotal reports it is something which bothers my children and their friends and affects their decisions re careers etc. It is making them less than enamoured of the current economic/political settlement.

    Britain needs to start building good quality homes and being more imaginative in the use it makes of existing space.

    Off topic: a depressing sign of the times that another major terrorist attack gets barely a mention these days.

    Finally re what Foxnsox said on the ladt thread: "If I were a regular Joe at such a rally, I would do a reverse ferret very quickly, just as I would if I were to be at anti-war rally if people started flying Hamas flags and making anti-semetic remarks." - absolutely right. By the company you keep you will be judged. But not all those who some seem to think are regular Joes or nice people, do do such reverse ferrets at such rallies. Some even choose to speak at them.

    By not dealing with housing for young people, low entry wages, and ridiculously high interest rates of over 6% for student debt, the Tories are building up a dangerous political tidal wave against them that could sweep them from office for years, IMHO.
    There are quite a few ‘young people’s issues’ where both Tory and the Coalition Governments seemed to choose inaction in favour of 'something for the older voters’.
    Under Cameron and Osborne the Conservatives forgot they need to be the party of aspiration. Instead they lapsed into becoming the party of privilege.
    Ironically May did get it - at least from her initial speeches. But then fluffed it.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    A quick thought on the attack in Barcelona: if you want to see where nationalism ends up look at the response. Two entirely separate ones are currently taking place - one by the Spanish government, the other by the Catalan one. They are talking to different people on the ground, working with different police forced and they are even holding separate news conferences. This is the consequence of years in which nationalists in Madrid and Barcelona have glared angrily at each other in place of looking for common ground. We'll find out, no doubt, whether political hostility led to a lack of shared intelligence that hampered the creation of a strategy that might have prevented yesterday's events, but as someone who loves Catalonia and Spain generally, what is now unfolding makes me furious.

    The King of Spain will be in Barcelona today for a minute's silence in the heart of the City - the Placa de Catalunya, which is at the top of the Ramblas. I only hope he gets a civil reception from the Catalan nationalist, political and in the crowd. That I'm concerned he might not says it all.

    I don't want to argue about this, but would suggest that this is what happens when the rulers ignore their citizens...?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,715
    edited August 2017

    Commiserations to HYUFD from last night.

    I'm sure it was well fought and sometimes that sadly isn't enough.

    Thanks Casino and to all those who posted commiserations last night. Although I am obviously disappointed to lose I have at least raised my profile in the ward and got a platform for the main town council elections in May 2019 which will be my next target
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Cyclefree said:

    Good article, thank you.

    Of all the issues listed I think housing is the biggest domestic issue. Finding somewhere decent to live at a reasonable cost is becoming impossible in London and this is spreading elsewhere. It affects the future of our children and, for those with property already, our old age - if no-one can buy how much of a "pension" can that property be?

    From purely anecdotal reports it is something which bothers my children and their friends and affects their decisions re careers etc. It is making them less than enamoured of the current economic/political settlement.

    Britain needs to start building good quality homes and being more imaginative in the use it makes of existing space.

    Off topic: a depressing sign of the times that another major terrorist attack gets barely a mention these days.

    Finally re what Foxnsox said on the ladt thread: "If I were a regular Joe at such a rally, I would do a reverse ferret very quickly, just as I would if I were to be at anti-war rally if people started flying Hamas flags and making anti-semetic remarks." - absolutely right. By the company you keep you will be judged. But not all those who some seem to think are regular Joes or nice people, do do such reverse ferrets at such rallies. Some even choose to speak at them.

    By not dealing with housing for young people, low entry wages, and ridiculously high interest rates of over 6% for student debt, the Tories are building up a dangerous political tidal wave against them that could sweep them from office for years, IMHO.
    There are quite a few ‘young people’s issues’ where both Tory and the Coalition Governments seemed to choose inaction in favour of 'something for the older voters’.
    Under Cameron and Osborne the Conservatives forgot they need to be the party of aspiration. Instead they lapsed into becoming the party of privilege.
    Yes - I think there is something in this. For all it's client state creation, Blairism didn't forgot that aispiration was key.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    HYUFD said:

    Commiserations to HYUFD from last night.

    I'm sure it was well fought and sometimes that sadly isn't enough.

    Thanks Casino and to all those who posted commisserations last night. Although I am obviously disappointed to lose I have at least raised my profile in the ward and got a platform for the main town council elections in May 2019 which will be my next target
    Can anything be extrapolated from your defeat? I'd have thought Epping a fairly blue sort of place, though I've only driven through it. Any national insights from the doorstep? (I'd always imagined you were up north, perhaps because your name looks a bit like Huddersfield.)
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Cyclefree said:

    Good article, thank you.

    Of all the issues listed I think housing is the biggest domestic issue. Finding somewhere decent to live at a reasonable cost is becoming impossible in London and this is spreading elsewhere. It affects the future of our children and, for those with property already, our old age - if no-one can buy how much of a "pension" can that property be?

    From purely anecdotal reports it is something which bothers my children and their friends and affects their decisions re careers etc. It is making them less than enamoured of the current economic/political settlement.

    Britain needs to start building good quality homes and being more imaginative in the use it makes of existing space.

    Off topic: a depressing sign of the times that another major terrorist attack gets barely a mention these days.

    Finally re what Foxnsox said on the ladt thread: "If I were a regular Joe at such a rally, I would do a reverse ferret very quickly, just as I would if I were to be at anti-war rally if people started flying Hamas flags and making anti-semetic remarks." - absolutely right. By the company you keep you will be judged. But not all those who some seem to think are regular Joes or nice people, do do such reverse ferrets at such rallies. Some even choose to speak at them.

    I am at a loss over your final paragraph. Who are we talking about? The original hypothesis was about genuine "regular Joes" presumably meaning innocent members of the 62% of the population who would like the statue kept, and had no other axe to grind. I agree that I personally would quietly remove my "keep the statue" badge and mingle with the crowd, but I would salso worry that that was moral cowardice on my part, and that the morally correct thing to do would be not to be put off by the presence of revolting neo-Nazis from saying my say. Are you saying that no one there at all was in fact a "regular Joe", or that being coincidentally on the same side of an argument as neo-Nazis is automatically equivalent to keeping company with them?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Sandpit said:

    Commiserations to HYUFD from last night.

    I'm sure it was well fought and sometimes that sadly isn't enough.

    Morning all. Just catching up, a good effort from @HYUFD, better luck next time. Well done to all those to stand for elections.
    Seconded. Hope you enjoyed the process HYUFD!
  • Mortimer said:

    A quick thought on the attack in Barcelona: if you want to see where nationalism ends up look at the response. Two entirely separate ones are currently taking place - one by the Spanish government, the other by the Catalan one. They are talking to different people on the ground, working with different police forced and they are even holding separate news conferences. This is the consequence of years in which nationalists in Madrid and Barcelona have glared angrily at each other in place of looking for common ground. We'll find out, no doubt, whether political hostility led to a lack of shared intelligence that hampered the creation of a strategy that might have prevented yesterday's events, but as someone who loves Catalonia and Spain generally, what is now unfolding makes me furious.

    The King of Spain will be in Barcelona today for a minute's silence in the heart of the City - the Placa de Catalunya, which is at the top of the Ramblas. I only hope he gets a civil reception from the Catalan nationalist, political and in the crowd. That I'm concerned he might not says it all.

    I don't want to argue about this, but would suggest that this is what happens when the rulers ignore their citizens...?

    The last Socialist government in Madrid agreed a new statute of autonomy with the Catalan government, which was widely supported in Catalonia. This was challenged by the-then opposition, Spanish nationalist PP and overturned by the Spanish Supreme Court. PP then gained power and it's been a stand-off ever since.

  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Good article, thank you.

    Of all the issues listed I think housing is the biggest domestic issue. Finding somewhere decent to live at a reasonable cost is becoming impossible in London and this is spreading elsewhere. It affects the future of our children and, for those with property already, our old age - if no-one can buy how much of a "pension" can that property be?

    From purely anecdotal reports it is something which bothers my children and their friends and affects their decisions re careers etc. It is making them less than enamoured of the current economic/political settlement.

    Britain needs to start building good quality homes and being more imaginative in the use it makes of existing space.

    Off topic: a depressing sign of the times that another major terrorist attack gets barely a mention these days.

    Finally re what Foxnsox said on the ladt thread: "If I were a regular Joe at such a rally, I would do a reverse ferret very quickly, just as I would if I were to be at anti-war rally if people started flying Hamas flags and making anti-semetic remarks." - absolutely right. By the company you keep you will be judged. But not all those who some seem to think are regular Joes or nice people, do do such reverse ferrets at such rallies. Some even choose to speak at them.

    By not dealing with housing for young people, low entry wages, and ridiculously high interest rates of over 6% for student debt, the Tories are building up a dangerous political tidal wave against them that could sweep them from office for years, IMHO.
    There are quite a few ‘young people’s issues’ where both Tory and the Coalition Governments seemed to choose inaction in favour of 'something for the older voters’.
    Under Cameron and Osborne the Conservatives forgot they need to be the party of aspiration. Instead they lapsed into becoming the party of privilege.
    Ironically May did get it - at least from her initial speeches. But then fluffed it.
    Its easier to spot the problems than to know how to deal with them.

    The Conservative manifesto ideas on pensions, adult social care and WFA were steps in the right direction but done so incompetently.

    And inevitably the privileged don't like having some of their privileges removed.

    Where it went wrong was in handing out the big money to pensioners and universities in the first place and assuming that the young wouldn't mind paying for it.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. HYUFD, commiserations, and best of luck for next time.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    rkrkrk said:



    Thatcher's main lesson being to have not one but two magic money trees: privatisation receipts and North Sea oil revenues. Where New Labour went wrong was only having one: spectrum sales.

    The Norwegians spent/saved their oil revenues better - most people seem to agree on that.
    But did they also manage the oil industry better?

    This article points out they generated twice the revenue per barrel for the state compared to the UK, for a number of reasons. Headline conclusion:

    "given political stability and competent institutions, a state can have both a relatively high tax burden on its industry and direct ownership of assets, and deliver more revenue for its citizens and still attract investment."

    https://resourcegovernance.org/blog/did-uk-miss-out-£400-billion-worth-oil-revenue
    Interesting. On the subject of ownership, I'd also observe that many of our EU friends such as France and Germany (whose economy is not doing too badly) have a lot of partial state ownership of industry: high stakes but not complete nationalisation.
  • Mr. Observer, leaving aside the fact Madrid won't nod it through, if Catalonia votes for independence and gets it, is their plan for a new head of state? Just curious.

    Interesting and depressing bit of info on the parallel responses.

    The plan is for Catalonia to be a republic, so presumably it will be an elected head of state.

    Just saw that the five terrorists shot dead in Cambrils (a very nice, very Catalan resort right next door to Salou) were dealt with by the national Spanish police, not the Catalan Mossos. Hopefully, now at least, operationally they're all totally coordinated.

  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Housing is an enormous issue I agree, I wrote on here a few weeks back that the trigger to the crisis was Thatcher selling off council houses at huge discounts converting us all into property developers as opposed to homeowners.

    And now the state sponsored property bubble is ironically pricing those who need it most out of the market. Housing benefit is a perfect example of inept govt, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

    None of the above is remotely connected to Brexit.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Observer, cheers for that answer.
  • Housing is an enormous issue I agree, I wrote on here a few weeks back that the trigger to the crisis was Thatcher selling off council houses at huge discounts converting us all into property developers as opposed to homeowners.

    And now the state sponsored property bubble is ironically pricing those who need it most out of the market. Housing benefit is a perfect example of inept govt, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

    None of the above is remotely connected to Brexit.

    Property development and BTL were a product of the Blair years. The two key triggers were:

    1) Brown's tax increases on pensions shifting investment money into property
    2) Increased immigration creating a demand for rented housing
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547
    The biggest general problem it seems to me is how to deal with globalisation. Brexit was substantially a rejection of globalisation by those who felt themselves left behind by it. Refusing to play the game prevents you winning it. Those that did well out of globalisation gave far too little attention to those left behind by globalisation hence Brexit as a deserved kick in the pants. But the kickers have made much things harder for themselves. They can only help themselves cope with globalisation if they reject their motivation for Leave. In this case Brexit is the symptom of the problem rather than the cause.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Housing is an enormous issue I agree, I wrote on here a few weeks back that the trigger to the crisis was Thatcher selling off council houses at huge discounts converting us all into property developers as opposed to homeowners.

    And now the state sponsored property bubble is ironically pricing those who need it most out of the market. Housing benefit is a perfect example of inept govt, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

    None of the above is remotely connected to Brexit.

    Property development and BTL were a product of the Blair years. The two key triggers were:

    1) Brown's tax increases on pensions shifting investment money into property
    2) Increased immigration creating a demand for rented housing
    Yes, but that was phase 2, RTB was the trigger. The irony is that Thatcher held herself up as a free marketeer but she massively distorted the market with 60% discounts.

    Of course you're correct about immigration, property is about supply and demand, it really isn't rocket science. And in London where property prices are astronomical they continue to vote for more immigration, its bizarre.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Mortimer said:

    A quick thought on the attack in Barcelona: if you want to see where nationalism ends up look at the response. Two entirely separate ones are currently taking place - one by the Spanish government, the other by the Catalan one. They are talking to different people on the ground, working with different police forced and they are even holding separate news conferences. This is the consequence of years in which nationalists in Madrid and Barcelona have glared angrily at each other in place of looking for common ground. We'll find out, no doubt, whether political hostility led to a lack of shared intelligence that hampered the creation of a strategy that might have prevented yesterday's events, but as someone who loves Catalonia and Spain generally, what is now unfolding makes me furious.

    The King of Spain will be in Barcelona today for a minute's silence in the heart of the City - the Placa de Catalunya, which is at the top of the Ramblas. I only hope he gets a civil reception from the Catalan nationalist, political and in the crowd. That I'm concerned he might not says it all.

    I don't want to argue about this, but would suggest that this is what happens when the rulers ignore their citizens...?
    Unfortunatley SO is correct in his observations about the divide which looks to be being exploited by both sides of the argument. Take a trip to twitter to see how pathetic the comments being made about the police being Catalan police not Spanish and the reaction to senior officials only reorting in Catan despite the fact they are talking to all of Spain. I doubt there are very few people in Catalonia that can only speak Catalan. Will be interested to day to see the response in my part of Spain 500km south both in terms of security and potential backlash against the fairly large Morrocan population coupled with the highest rates of illegal immigration seen in the last few days.
  • HYUFD said:

    Commiserations to HYUFD from last night.

    I'm sure it was well fought and sometimes that sadly isn't enough.

    Thanks Casino and to all those who posted commiserations last night. Although I am obviously disappointed to lose I have at least raised my profile in the ward and got a platform for the main town council elections in May 2019 which will be my next target
    Glad to hear you are continuing with your efforts. Tell the good people of Epping from me that they should elect you, regardless of Party.
  • 619619 Posts: 1,784
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Good article, thank you.

    Of all the issues listed I think housing is the biggest domestic issue. Finding somewhere decent to live at a reasonable cost is becoming impossible in London and this is spreading elsewhere. It affects the future of our children and, for those with property already, our old age - if no-one can buy how much of a "pension" can that property be?

    From purely anecdotal reports it is something which bothers my children and their friends and affects their decisions re careers etc. It is making them less than enamoured of the current economic/political settlement.

    Britain needs to start building good quality homes and being more imaginative in the use it makes of existing space.

    Off topic: a depressing sign of the times that another major terrorist attack gets barely a mention these days.

    Finally re what Foxnsox said on the ladt thread: "If I were a regular Joe at such a rally, I would do a reverse ferret very quickly, just as I would if I were to be at anti-war rally if people started flying Hamas flags and making anti-semetic remarks." - absolutely right. By the company you keep you will be judged. But not all those who some seem to think are regular Joes or nice people, do do such reverse ferrets at such rallies. Some even choose to speak at them.

    I am at a loss over your final paragraph. Who are we talking about? The original hypothesis was about genuine "regular Joes" presumably meaning innocent members of the 62% of the population who would like the statue kept, and had no other axe to grind. I agree that I personally would quietly remove my "keep the statue" badge and mingle with the crowd, but I would salso worry that that was moral cowardice on my part, and that the morally correct thing to do would be not to be put off by the presence of revolting neo-Nazis from saying my say. Are you saying that no one there at all was in fact a "regular Joe", or that being coincidentally on the same side of an argument as neo-Nazis is automatically equivalent to keeping company with them?
    The authorities describe it as 'The USA's largest march of white nationalists and neo Nazis in a generation'.

    Sorry, but if you are on a march like that. you aren't in a position to complain about being unfairly tarred as racist.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,545
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Good article, thank you.

    Of all the issues listed I think housing is the biggest domestic issue. Finding somewhere decent to live at a reasonable cost is becoming impossible in London and this is spreading elsewhere. It affects the future of our children and, for those with property already, our old age - if no-one can buy how much of a "pension" can that property be?

    From purely anecdotal reports it is something which bothers my children and their friends and affects their decisions re careers etc. It is making them less than enamoured of the current economic/political settlement.

    Britain needs to start building good quality homes and being more imaginative in the use it makes of existing space.

    Off topic: a depressing sign of the times that another major terrorist attack gets barely a mention these days.

    Finally re what Foxnsox said on the ladt thread: "If I were a regular Joe at such a rally, I would do a reverse ferret very quickly, just as I would if I were to be at anti-war rally if people started flying Hamas flags and making anti-semetic remarks." - absolutely right. By the company you keep you will be judged. But not all those who some seem to think are regular Joes or nice people, do do such reverse ferrets at such rallies. Some even choose to speak at them.

    I am at a loss over your final paragraph. Who are we talking about? The original hypothesis was about genuine "regular Joes" presumably meaning innocent members of the 62% of the population who would like the statue kept, and had no other axe to grind. I agree that I personally would quietly remove my "keep the statue" badge and mingle with the crowd, but I would salso worry that that was moral cowardice on my part, and that the morally correct thing to do would be not to be put off by the presence of revolting neo-Nazis from saying my say. Are you saying that no one there at all was in fact a "regular Joe", or that being coincidentally on the same side of an argument as neo-Nazis is automatically equivalent to keeping company with them?
    Why not have a second protest at a different time from the one led / infiltrated by neo-Nazis, especially as many of those fellows had to travel for the event?

    If you choose to march at the same time as a massed group of neo-Nazis, then yes, you are keeping company with them.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    Morning all :)

    Antifrank (sorry, Alastair) is correct. There's a lot else other than Brexit to talk about - I posted a couple of pieces from Public Finance about the financial crisis in Council Children's Services Departments and a study showing 70,000 additional care places for Adults will be required by 2025 and got not a single comment.

    The trouble is these are tough issues with no easy answers but they matter.

    One much less relevant piece to lighten the mood on Friday, also from Public Finance, showing the move of the BBC to Manchester had little or no discernible economic benefit. Needless to say, that hasn't been universally welcomed.

    http://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2017/08/bbcs-manchester-move-had-little-economic-benefit
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724

    Housing is an enormous issue I agree, I wrote on here a few weeks back that the trigger to the crisis was Thatcher selling off council houses at huge discounts converting us all into property developers as opposed to homeowners.

    And now the state sponsored property bubble is ironically pricing those who need it most out of the market. Housing benefit is a perfect example of inept govt, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

    None of the above is remotely connected to Brexit.

    My grandson and fiancee, in their mid-twenties, are buying, on a mortgage, natch, a former council house on what was always considered a reasonable, although not good estate in SE Essex. They are both teachers and need both their salaries to fund the mortgage.

    While obviously at the moment their energies are concentrated on getting their new property as they want it, the last time I spoke to them on the subject of politics neither had any intention of ever voting Tory.

    We went with them to buy some furniture. We paid a substantial deposit for them, but there’s a bit left over on HP and while they were asked about their salaries there was no mention of repayment of student loans, although obviously both are doing so.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    619 said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Good article, thank you.

    Of all the issues listed I think housing is the biggest domestic issue. Finding somewhere decent to live at a reasonable cost is becoming impossible in London and this is spreading elsewhere. It affects the future of our children and, for those with property already, our old age - if no-one can buy how much of a "pension" can that property be?

    From purely anecdotal reports it is something which bothers my children and their friends and affects their decisions re careers etc. It is making them less than enamoured of the current economic/political settlement.

    Britain needs to start building good quality homes and being more imaginative in the use it makes of existing space.

    Off topic: a depressing sign of the times that another major terrorist attack gets barely a mention these days.

    Finally re what Foxnsox said on the ladt thread: "If I were a regular Joe at such a rally, I would do a reverse ferret very quickly, just as I would if I were to be at anti-war rally if people started flying Hamas flags and making anti-semetic remarks." - absolutely right. By the company you keep you will be judged. But not all those who some seem to think are regular Joes or nice people, do do such reverse ferrets at such rallies. Some even choose to speak at them.

    I am at a loss over your final paragraph. Who are we talking about? The original hypothesis was about genuine "regular Joes" presumably meaning innocent members of the 62% of the population who would like the statue kept, and had no other axe to grind. I agree that I personally would quietly remove my "keep the statue" badge and mingle with the crowd, but I would salso worry that that was moral cowardice on my part, and that the morally correct thing to do would be not to be put off by the presence of revolting neo-Nazis from saying my say. Are you saying that no one there at all was in fact a "regular Joe", or that being coincidentally on the same side of an argument as neo-Nazis is automatically equivalent to keeping company with them?
    The authorities describe it as 'The USA's largest march of white nationalists and neo Nazis in a generation'.

    Sorry, but if you are on a march like that. you aren't in a position to complain about being unfairly tarred as racist.
    "The authorities describe it" ... link, please?

    You seem to be quoting, so trying that phrase in the Google seems to only give us a similar phrase from the hideous SPLC. Admittedly I gave up after the first page but at first verification it does seem to be fake news.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,715

    HYUFD said:

    Commiserations to HYUFD from last night.

    I'm sure it was well fought and sometimes that sadly isn't enough.

    Thanks Casino and to all those who posted commiserations last night. Although I am obviously disappointed to lose I have at least raised my profile in the ward and got a platform for the main town council elections in May 2019 which will be my next target
    Glad to hear you are continuing with your efforts. Tell the good people of Epping from me that they should elect you, regardless of Party.
    Thanks Peter and will do!
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    619 said:



    The authorities describe it as 'The USA's largest march of white nationalists and neo Nazis in a generation'.

    Sorry, but if you are on a march like that. you aren't in a position to complain about being unfairly tarred as racist.

    I thought you were going to explain McIntire's reasons for commissioning the statue? I'm also intrigued to learn that you accept as gospel the utterances of anonymous bodies described only as "the authorities". Source, please? Because it is difficult to treat you as an expert on USA affairs when you revealed the other day that you did not recognise the text of the Second Amendment.

    The hypothesis was not about people "on the march", it was about a non-Nazi citizen who was there to protest for non-racist reasons about the removal of the statue.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    Antifrank (sorry, Alastair) is correct. There's a lot else other than Brexit to talk about - I posted a couple of pieces from Public Finance about the financial crisis in Council Children's Services Departments and a study showing 70,000 additional care places for Adults will be required by 2025 and got not a single comment.

    The trouble is these are tough issues with no easy answers but they matter.

    One much less relevant piece to lighten the mood on Friday, also from Public Finance, showing the move of the BBC to Manchester had little or no discernible economic benefit. Needless to say, that hasn't been universally welcomed.

    http://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2017/08/bbcs-manchester-move-had-little-economic-benefit

    The Adult Social Care requirments are certainly concerning my wife and myself as bits drop off us, or go bad, as we approach our 80’s.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,715
    edited August 2017

    HYUFD said:

    Commiserations to HYUFD from last night.

    I'm sure it was well fought and sometimes that sadly isn't enough.

    Thanks Casino and to all those who posted commisserations last night. Although I am obviously disappointed to lose I have at least raised my profile in the ward and got a platform for the main town council elections in May 2019 which will be my next target
    Can anything be extrapolated from your defeat? I'd have thought Epping a fairly blue sort of place, though I've only driven through it. Any national insights from the doorstep? (I'd always imagined you were up north, perhaps because your name looks a bit like Huddersfield.)
    Epping Forest parliamentary constituency is solid blue but at local level the LDs hold 2/3 of the district seats in Epping Hemnall where I stood last night and the Greens have a councillor in Buckhurst Hill and Loughton is dominated by the Residents Association. In the last district election in Hemnall in 2016 the Tories got 34% last night we got 37% in the town council by election so I don't think it suggests much change nationally albeit the LDs campaigned hard on the local plan so expect local plans to figure heavily in next year's locals
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    Mr Jessop,

    "Why not have a second protest at a different time from the one led / infiltrated by neo-Nazis,"

    My marching days are long gone, but I do remember any vaguely left-wing demo being infiltrated by the SWP and the anarchists. They get everywhere.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Housing is an enormous issue I agree, I wrote on here a few weeks back that the trigger to the crisis was Thatcher selling off council houses at huge discounts converting us all into property developers as opposed to homeowners.

    And now the state sponsored property bubble is ironically pricing those who need it most out of the market. Housing benefit is a perfect example of inept govt, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

    None of the above is remotely connected to Brexit.

    Property development and BTL were a product of the Blair years. The two key triggers were:

    1) Brown's tax increases on pensions shifting investment money into property
    2) Increased immigration creating a demand for rented housing
    Yes, but that was phase 2, RTB was the trigger. The irony is that Thatcher held herself up as a free marketeer but she massively distorted the market with 60% discounts.

    Of course you're correct about immigration, property is about supply and demand, it really isn't rocket science. And in London where property prices are astronomical they continue to vote for more immigration, its bizarre.
    Economic demand for real estate is not the same as physical demand for accommodation. House prices have risen much faster than rents, in London as well as the rest of the country.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    HYUFD said:


    Epping Forest parliamentary constituency is solid blue but at local level the LDs hold 2/3 of the district seats in Epping Hemnall where I stood last night and the Greens have a councillor in Buckhurst Hill and Loughton is dominated by the Residents Association. In the last district election in Hemnall in 2016 the Tories got 34% last night we got 37% in the town council by election so I don't think it suggests much change nationally albeit the LDs campaigned hard on the local plan so expect local plans to figure heavily in next year's locals

    I'm not too far from Epping and we have friends in the town so I have been there a good number of times. The High Street is deteriorating I think and like so many other areas the Police Station has gone (in East Ham it has been left vacant since it closed - there's another topic for discussion), the Sue Ryder charity shop went as I recall and while The George & Dragon is a nice gastropub, I much prefer the Zaikaa down the other end of the High Street - some of the best Indian food around.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,715
    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    Epping Forest parliamentary constituency is solid blue but at local level the LDs hold 2/3 of the district seats in Epping Hemnall where I stood last night and the Greens have a councillor in Buckhurst Hill and Loughton is dominated by the Residents Association. In the last district election in Hemnall in 2016 the Tories got 34% last night we got 37% in the town council by election so I don't think it suggests much change nationally albeit the LDs campaigned hard on the local plan so expect local plans to figure heavily in next year's locals

    I'm not too far from Epping and we have friends in the town so I have been there a good number of times. The High Street is deteriorating I think and like so many other areas the Police Station has gone (in East Ham it has been left vacant since it closed - there's another topic for discussion), the Sue Ryder charity shop went as I recall and while The George & Dragon is a nice gastropub, I much prefer the Zaikaa down the other end of the High Street - some of the best Indian food around.

    Yes though Churches the butchers is still there and the Theydon Oak in Coopersale Street just outside Epping is excellent for Sunday lunch (and often frequented by Rod Stewart who lives nearby). I agree Zaikaa is produces some excellent Indian food and I often get takeaways from there
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Gay donkey man has a new policy. A migration target of negative 1 million per year to be achieved by paying people £10k to leave.

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ukip-leadership-candidate-wants-cut-11006718
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Just seen Leanne Wood's twitter on Barcelona.

    Quite extraordinary.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,776
    Housing affordability is a major problem, but hopefully, will improve. Private housing output has risen by 50% over the past five years; combined with reduced immigration from the EU and falling divorce rates, this could result in an end to price rises.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745


    The Adult Social Care requirments are certainly concerning my wife and myself as bits drop off us, or go bad, as we approach our 80’s.

    I think the issue of the place of the elderly is the biggest challenge we face as a society over the next 40 years. Cultural attitudes toward the elderly and their place in society need to change and quickly.

    There are far too many questions to list but as an example, should we be providing financial encouragement for families to take a leading role in the care of elderly relatives ? The tradition of children being able to stay near older parents has been shattered by the housing market and the advent of mass-scale University education which saw youngsters move away and put down roots in other towns and cities (and indeed other countries).

    How can living a vital economically active and productive life be combined (when and if it needs to be) with the provision of an appropriate environment for the care of an elderly relative ? How do we meet the demands of an increasingly inter-generational workforce where people from 17 to 70 could be in the same office or organisation ?

    Again, these are difficult questions and answers often cut across traditional tribal political loyalties.



  • AllanAllan Posts: 262
    TOPPING said:

    Just seen Leanne Wood's twitter on Barcelona.

    Quite extraordinary.

    LeanneWood‏Verified account @LeanneWood 15h15 hours ago

    Ofnadwy / terrible. Is this more far right terrorism? My thoughts are with all those affected.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Good article, thank you.

    Of all the issues listed I think housing is the biggest domestic issue. Finding somewhere decent to live at a reasonable cost is becoming impossible in London and this is spreading elsewhere. It affects the future of our children and, for those with property already, our old age - if no-one can buy how much of a "pension" can that property be?

    From purely anecdotal reports it is something which bothers my children and their friends and affects their decisions re careers etc. It is making them less than enamoured of the current economic/political settlement.

    Britain needs to start building good quality homes and being more imaginative in the use it makes of existing space.

    Off topic: a depressing sign of the times that another major terrorist attack gets barely a mention these days.

    Finally re what Foxnsox said on the ladt thread: "If I were a regular Joe at such a rally, I would do a reverse ferret very quickly, just as I would if I were to be at anti-war rally if people started flying Hamas flags and making anti-semetic remarks." - absolutely right. By the company you keep you will be judged. But not all those who some seem to think are regular Joes or nice people, do do such reverse ferrets at such rallies. Some even choose to speak at them.

    By not dealing with housing for young people, low entry wages, and ridiculously high interest rates of over 6% for student debt, the Tories are building up a dangerous political tidal wave against them that could sweep them from office for years, IMHO.
    Of those, only the last is within central government control.

    High-cost housing and low wages are south-east problems. The one is caused not by genuine property shortage, but by an influx into the City of highly-paid workers bidding prices up; the other is caused by an influx of young workers, some unskilled and some with degrees, neither of which type can get a job back home in Spain, Estonia, or wherever.

    The solution to the latter would appear to be Brexit, unfortunately. It's not just a simple matter of the state deliberately crashing the property market by overbuilding. Infrastructure is required too.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Australia may soon be sending for Prince Charles to be Governor General if they run out of MPs.

    Australia citizenship: Sixth MP in eligibility trouble
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40970963

    And Michael Gove may be impeached if his lousy education system has led the BBC to think Australia is in Europe.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Good thread - and while: Britain is set to fall years behind its cohort in dealing with them. So much for making Britain more competitive. may turn out to be true, as we have seen from M. Macron's plummeting poll ratings in France - even before he gets started our cohort may find themselves distracted too.

    Two (or more) years of government not doing very much may not be an unmitigated disaster.....

    Meanwhile, in a heroic Trump distraction effort, Nige is blaming the EU for Barcelona:

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/08/17/nigel-farage-blames-eu-leaders-for-continued-isis-terror-in-europe.html

    FPT - James Murdoch letter on Trump & Nazis:

    http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/james-murdoch-rips-trump-standing-up-nazis-is-essential-1030778

    I'm delighted if the Government just leaves me alone.
    In terms of the economy, the big changes we needed in the seventies were done by Thatcher in the eighties - now instead of rejoicing in highest ever employment the FT frets about stagnant productivity - which is an issue - but beyond education, hardly the government's job.

    The 'elephant in the room' is social care for the elderly - but I doubt any politicians are in a hurry to propose anything on that.....so a couple of years of focussing on BREXIT may be no bad thing - and we can point and laugh at look on in wonder as 'Jupiter' Macron reforms France's Labour laws.......
    We might have to relearn Thatcher's lessons all over again if Corbyn gets in.

    Some of the naivety shown by some of the under 35s on socialism is extremely worrying.
    There is a naivety shown by those who think that the current 30-year settlement is somehow a given. It is not. It needs to be shown to work for the young and not just for those who lived through the Thatcher years and earlier.

    One of Thatcher's most popular policies was opening up the housing market. Now her successors are presiding over its closure to anyone other than the very rich, many of them foreign who treat London property as a bank. That is causing resentment, righly so IMO.

    I despise Corbyn's socialism as much as anyone. But I look at the future for my children and see debt, no chance of a home and restricted life choices as a result. Criticising them for naivety about Corbyn is self-indulgent. We are being naive in thinking that they should be in favour of things as they are.
    Although on the other hand there are many parts of the country in which you can buy a house on the local average wage for less than social rent.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    And Michael Gove may be impeached if his lousy education system has led the BBC to think Australia is in Europe.

    It's all those EU citizens in their government that make it a European story. ;)
  • Allan said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just seen Leanne Wood's twitter on Barcelona.

    Quite extraordinary.

    LeanneWood‏Verified account @LeanneWood 15h15 hours ago

    Ofnadwy / terrible. Is this more far right terrorism? My thoughts are with all those affected.
    According to herself she wasn't wrong as ISIS are a far right group.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,745
    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    HYUFD said:


    Epping Forest parliamentary constituency is solid blue but at local level the LDs hold 2/3 of the district seats in Epping Hemnall where I stood last night and the Greens have a councillor in Buckhurst Hill and Loughton is dominated by the Residents Association. In the last district election in Hemnall in 2016 the Tories got 34% last night we got 37% in the town council by election so I don't think it suggests much change nationally albeit the LDs campaigned hard on the local plan so expect local plans to figure heavily in next year's locals

    I'm not too far from Epping and we have friends in the town so I have been there a good number of times. The High Street is deteriorating I think and like so many other areas the Police Station has gone (in East Ham it has been left vacant since it closed - there's another topic for discussion), the Sue Ryder charity shop went as I recall and while The George & Dragon is a nice gastropub, I much prefer the Zaikaa down the other end of the High Street - some of the best Indian food around.

    Yes though Churches the butchers is still there and the Theydon Oak in Coopersale Street just outside Epping is excellent for Sunday lunch (and often frequented by Rod Stewart who lives nearby). I agree Zaikaa is produces some excellent Indian food and I often get takeaways from there
    Have enjoyed Sunday lunch in the Theydon Oak with Mrs Stodge (though no sign of Mr Stewart on that occasion). I always wondered how much time they spent cleaning all the ornaments. Zaikaa does a marvellous Sunday evening buffet-style offering (all you can eat but not in the buffet style). The aforementioned Mrs Stodge has visited Nostro's (I believe it's called) with her friend - mixed reviews. My fear is Epping will become like every other High Street with the same chains and places to eat - I'm sure it's something of which the Town Council is well aware.

    Don't mention Coopersale or you'll get Sunil on here waxing lyrical about the Epping-Ongar railway.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,285
    FPT:
    GeoffM said:

    619 said:

    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/fahrenthold/status/898280607012212736

    So virtue signalling is now more important than raising money to fight cancer.

    Noted.
    You think they couldn't raise money anywhere else?
    I am sure they know they would lose more donors by associating with Trump.

    Still, I expect he's pleased to know he still has a supportier in you!
    Bloody cancer charity do gooders.

    They are still doing the fundraiser and are avoiding association with a crazy racist. Win win!
    Indeed! What's not to like? Unless you're GeoffM of course!
    I was making a serious and non-political point. I'm not sure if you missed it or deliberately chose to ignore it but I'll have one more go.

    When a charity decides to go political, they face losing some donors and have to hope that they offset those by gaining others.

    Consider the National Trust. They decided to rip up the written legacies of their benefactors over field sports rights on land left to them, for example. They lost some members over that (me, for example). Whether they gained any members on the flip-side is debatable. Similarly with me and the RSPCA on the same subject.

    Going all SJW risks alienating some of your philanthropic base. By virtue signalling they are gambling with lifesaving levels of fund raising. That's all. It's not a political thing. Charities should stay out of politics.
    Geoff, your use of terms like 'virtue signalling' and 'SJW' marks you out as a reactionary raging against the tide of modern thinking.

    What you fail to see is that organisations like AmericanCancer are taking such actions because they consider it right (a virtue) not to associate with a POTUS who appears to support white-supremacists. It's not about signalling the virtue, it's about applying it.

    As for SJW's, the vast majority of people want to see social justice; you don't have to be any kind of 'warrior'. Many wealthy AmericanCancer donors will be liberal-minded people who support social justice. They are a far cry from your crass stereotype of soap-avoiding 'SJWs'.

    PS You'll be pleased to know the National Trust survived your political stand against them. Membership numbers have grown from 2 million in 1990 to 4.24 million in 2015, and in 2016 reached a record 4.59m. Together with NT Scotland it is one of the truly great British institutions. Shame you can't see your way to support it, but that's your loss.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Allan said:

    TOPPING said:

    Just seen Leanne Wood's twitter on Barcelona.

    Quite extraordinary.

    LeanneWood‏Verified account @LeanneWood 15h15 hours ago

    Ofnadwy / terrible. Is this more far right terrorism? My thoughts are with all those affected.
    According to herself she wasn't wrong as ISIS are a far right group.
    According to the planet she's a fucking idiot.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133

    FPT:

    GeoffM said:

    619 said:

    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/fahrenthold/status/898280607012212736

    So virtue signalling is now more important than raising money to fight cancer.

    Noted.
    You think they couldn't raise money anywhere else?
    I am sure they know they would lose more donors by associating with Trump.

    Still, I expect he's pleased to know he still has a supportier in you!
    Bloody cancer charity do gooders.

    They are still doing the fundraiser and are avoiding association with a crazy racist. Win win!
    Indeed! What's not to like? Unless you're GeoffM of course!
    I was making a serious and non-political point. I'm not sure if you missed it or deliberately chose to ignore it but I'll have one more go.

    When a charity decides to go political, they face losing some donors and have to hope that they offset those by gaining others.

    Consider the National Trust. They decided to rip up the written legacies of their benefactors over field sports rights on land left to them, for example. They lost some members over that (me, for example). Whether they gained any members on the flip-side is debatable. Similarly with me and the RSPCA on the same subject.

    Going all SJW risks alienating some of your philanthropic base. By virtue signalling they are gambling with lifesaving levels of fund raising. That's all. It's not a political thing. Charities should stay out of politics.
    Geoff, your use of terms like 'virtue signalling' and 'SJW' marks you out as a reactionary raging against the tide of modern thinking.
    The "tide of modern thinking" includes the concept that universities shouldn't allow free speech on their campus.

    This is the latest nonsense in this vein which rather proves the organisers' point:

    http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/facing-pushback-ryerson-cancels-panel-discussion-on-campus-free-speech/wcm/65986f6f-d393-4213-b10d-003e1c348c44
  • Housing is an enormous issue I agree, I wrote on here a few weeks back that the trigger to the crisis was Thatcher selling off council houses at huge discounts converting us all into property developers as opposed to homeowners.

    None of the above is remotely connected to Brexit.

    My grandson and fiancee, in their mid-twenties, are buying, on a mortgage, natch, a former council house on what was always considered a reasonable, although not good estate in SE Essex. They are both teachers and need both their salaries to fund the mortgage.

    While obviously at the moment their energies are concentrated on getting their new property as they want it, the last time I spoke to them on the subject of politics neither had any intention of ever voting Tory.

    We went with them to buy some furniture. We paid a substantial deposit for them, but there’s a bit left over on HP and while they were asked about their salaries there was no mention of repayment of student loans, although obviously both are doing so.
    One cause of house price inflation for which the Tories are definitely responsible was Lawson's scandalous decision to reform taxation of married women's earnings. Prior to 1988 they rightly had no personal allowance, and their earnings were a line item on their husband's tax return, who had a bigger personal allowance and paid tax on his chattel's earnings at his marginal rate. That might be 83% in the 1970s so some women stood to lose £5 of every £6 they earned. If tax was overpaid by mistake, the taxman sent their husband a cheque made out to him.

    It was thus that the old mortgage lending rules of 3.5x the main salary / 2.5x main plus 1x the other originally arose. Lenders quite correctly heavily discounted the little woman's salary because there was so little left of it relative to the man's that it wasn't worth the same as man- money when it came to servicing a mortgage.

    Lawson, the bastard, swept all that away so that a woman got her own personal allowance and was taxed as a person rather than a chattel (Labour voted against this wickedness). Whatever was he thinking? As a result, mortgage lending - and hence what couples could bid for houses - adjusted to 3x joint salary, and with secularly-falling interest rates for the last 25 years, to 4x or even 5x salary.

    Even worse, the little wives now bothered to work where previously it hadn't been worth it. They no longer knew their place and unwisely left the kitchen. As a result you now need two average salaries to fund the average mortgage, and the man's wages have been competed down by women.

    This is pure Tory evil and the answer clearly is to return to the enlightened Saudi-style taxation policies of pre-1988. I feel sure that any party setting all this out as I have done would sweep to power - the trade unions would certainly like it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    TOPPING said:

    Just seen Leanne Wood's twitter on Barcelona.

    Quite extraordinary.

    https://twitter.com/DrDen7/status/898262412620693508
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547
    edited August 2017

    Under Cameron and Osborne the Conservatives forgot they need to be the party of aspiration. Instead they lapsed into becoming the party of privilege.

    @Cyclefree Ironically May did get it - at least from her initial speeches. But then fluffed it.
    -
    It was the maligned Ed Miliband who got it that high house prices are anti-aspirational and so went against a totem firmly held by all governments. Much good it did him.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Britain has built a national myth on winning the Second World War, but it’s distorting our politics

    The impending humiliation of Brexit is going to have a lot more in common with Suez.


    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2017/08/britain-has-built-national-myth-winning-second-world-war-it-s-distorting-our
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,545
    CD13 said:

    Mr Jessop,

    "Why not have a second protest at a different time from the one led / infiltrated by neo-Nazis,"

    My marching days are long gone, but I do remember any vaguely left-wing demo being infiltrated by the SWP and the anarchists. They get everywhere.

    Yes, but this was more than just infiltrated, wasn't it?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,545
    I'm starting to believe at least one Confederate statue should be kept: after all, some art transcends politics.

    I'm putting forward this statue of Forrest in Nashville as being a superior art form representative of neo-Nazis everywhere:

    http://images.gawker.com/1310553686853971558/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800.jpg
    http://images.gawker.com/1310553686994018150/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636.jpg
  • Housing is an enormous issue I agree, I wrote on here a few weeks back that the trigger to the crisis was Thatcher selling off council houses at huge discounts converting us all into property developers as opposed to homeowners.

    And now the state sponsored property bubble is ironically pricing those who need it most out of the market. Housing benefit is a perfect example of inept govt, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

    None of the above is remotely connected to Brexit.

    Property development and BTL were a product of the Blair years. The two key triggers were:

    1) Brown's tax increases on pensions shifting investment money into property
    2) Increased immigration creating a demand for rented housing
    Yes, but that was phase 2, RTB was the trigger. The irony is that Thatcher held herself up as a free marketeer but she massively distorted the market with 60% discounts.

    Of course you're correct about immigration, property is about supply and demand, it really isn't rocket science. And in London where property prices are astronomical they continue to vote for more immigration, its bizarre.
    Economic demand for real estate is not the same as physical demand for accommodation. House prices have risen much faster than rents, in London as well as the rest of the country.
    Which figures. Rents are held down when house prices are rising because buying looks more attractive. If house prices fall, renting looks better so demand to rent increases; hence rents rise when house prices fall (or to be less prescriptive, perform relatively better - both could rise or fall but one could do so relatively more). Well, they did in the early 1990s anyway.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. P, Corbyn, embracing multi-culturalism?

    Well, if that's what Baroness Chakrabarti's report says, it must be true. Indeed, Champion throwing herself from the rooftop of reality can only be further proof of Chairman Corbyn's innate goodness.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922
    Re. House prices. The one thing any government serious about tackling the problem could do that would definitely help would be to introduce legislation requiring purchasers to prove a connection to the area in which they're buying property.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 4,922

    Housing is an enormous issue I agree, I wrote on here a few weeks back that the trigger to the crisis was Thatcher selling off council houses at huge discounts converting us all into property developers as opposed to homeowners.

    And now the state sponsored property bubble is ironically pricing those who need it most out of the market. Housing benefit is a perfect example of inept govt, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

    None of the above is remotely connected to Brexit.

    Property development and BTL were a product of the Blair years. The two key triggers were:

    1) Brown's tax increases on pensions shifting investment money into property
    2) Increased immigration creating a demand for rented housing
    Yes, but that was phase 2, RTB was the trigger. The irony is that Thatcher held herself up as a free marketeer but she massively distorted the market with 60% discounts.

    Of course you're correct about immigration, property is about supply and demand, it really isn't rocket science. And in London where property prices are astronomical they continue to vote for more immigration, its bizarre.
    Economic demand for real estate is not the same as physical demand for accommodation. House prices have risen much faster than rents, in London as well as the rest of the country.
    Which figures. Rents are held down when house prices are rising because buying looks more attractive. If house prices fall, renting looks better so demand to rent increases; hence rents rise when house prices fall (or to be less prescriptive, perform relatively better - both could rise or fall but one could do so relatively more). Well, they did in the early 1990s anyway.
    In London both have soared simultaneously.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Scott_P said:
    I'll move to Epping and vote for HYUFD if he promises a worldwide ban on Twitter.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Scott_P said:
    Just as well Corbyn hasn't condemned 'violence on both sides' recently then.....
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756

    I'm starting to believe at least one Confederate statue should be kept: after all, some art transcends politics.

    I'm putting forward this statue of Forrest in Nashville as being a superior art form representative of neo-Nazis everywhere:

    http://images.gawker.com/1310553686853971558/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800.jpg
    http://images.gawker.com/1310553686994018150/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636.jpg

    It's crying out for a unicorn's horn tho'.

    (everyone's a critic)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Re. House prices. The one thing any government serious about tackling the problem could do that would definitely help would be to introduce legislation requiring purchasers to prove a connection to the area in which they're buying property.

    sort of like a ghetto, yes?
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Scott_P said:
    I'll move to Epping and vote for HYUFD if he promises a worldwide ban on Twitter.
    I'll move too and vote for that policy.
    And canvass and leaflet too.
  • Housing is an enormous issue I agree, I wrote on here a few weeks back that the trigger to the crisis was Thatcher selling off council houses at huge discounts converting us all into property developers as opposed to homeowners.

    And now the state sponsored property bubble is ironically pricing those who need it most out of the market. Housing benefit is a perfect example of inept govt, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

    None of the above is remotely connected to Brexit.

    Property development and BTL were a product of the Blair years. The two key triggers were:

    1) Brown's tax increases on pensions shifting investment money into property
    2) Increased immigration creating a demand for rented housing
    Yes, but that was phase 2, RTB was the trigger. The irony is that Thatcher held herself up as a free marketeer but she massively distorted the market with 60% discounts.

    Of course you're correct about immigration, property is about supply and demand, it really isn't rocket science. And in London where property prices are astronomical they continue to vote for more immigration, its bizarre.
    Economic demand for real estate is not the same as physical demand for accommodation. House prices have risen much faster than rents, in London as well as the rest of the country.
    Which figures. Rents are held down when house prices are rising because buying looks more attractive. If house prices fall, renting looks better so demand to rent increases; hence rents rise when house prices fall (or to be less prescriptive, perform relatively better - both could rise or fall but one could do so relatively more). Well, they did in the early 1990s anyway.
    In London both have soared simultaneously.
    Indeed, but by different amounts. I rented a flat in 1998 for £275 a week, then bought it for £250k, and now I let it out. It rents for twice what I paid, but would probably sell for four times what I paid. The rent has gone up by about 3% a year which is not that excessive. If its price were to fall I'd expect the rent to rise or fall less - unless there were some cataclysmic event that reduced demand for habitation in London across the board.

    It's often forgotten that in 1989 to 1995 rents went through the roof because people were prepared to pay up to avoid the capital loss of buying. It's why BTL took off too - in 1996 you could buy a flat with a 75% BTL mortgage and instantly let it out for more than the mortgage was costing. BTL was started and enabled by the last house price crash, basically.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    I'm starting to believe at least one Confederate statue should be kept: after all, some art transcends politics.

    I'm putting forward this statue of Forrest in Nashville as being a superior art form representative of neo-Nazis everywhere:

    http://images.gawker.com/1310553686853971558/c_scale,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800.jpg
    http://images.gawker.com/1310553686994018150/c_fit,fl_progressive,q_80,w_636.jpg

    It certainly transcends something.
This discussion has been closed.