And re the comment about why some groups don’t vote Tory: well, if you tell a group of people you don’t really like them, then they won’t for you. Or at the very least if you give them that impression, they won’t vote for you. That’s why young people don’t vote Tory, and it’s been a significant reason why ethnic minorities generally don’t vote Tory either. And as we’ve found out since last GE, the Conservative party need to start persuading more young people and ethnic minorities to vote for them if they want to win in 2022.
What if people just have values that are totally at variance with yours? How do you win them over?
One comment I've heard several times in relation to child rape cases, involving Muslim men, is that while these are bad, they should be "punished by the community" rather than through the criminal justice system. Which translates as, they should be swept under the carpet.
That represents a very huge difference in outlook between Conservatives and these communities.
No one is suggesting that the Conservatives win over individuals who believe that though. There are many minorities (such as myself) who don’t believe those things. For a start not all minorities believe in a specific kind of interpretation of the Muslim faith.
But the Conservatives are going to have win over more minorities in the future if they want to win, that’s the reality.
What effect (if any) do you think the death of the Queen might have on politics in this country if it happens in this parliament?
A lot of reflection about changes in society and some proposing of radical solutions to having not met all the challenges of those changes yet, some spiking of open republican sentiment- while few would want to criticise her, there could be no other time with which to discuss the future of the institution - but otherwise not a great deal.
And re the comment about why some groups don’t vote Tory: well, if you tell a group of people you don’t really like them, then they won’t for you. Or at the very least if you give them that impression, they won’t vote for you. That’s why young people don’t vote Tory, and it’s been a significant reason why ethnic minorities generally don’t vote Tory either. And as we’ve found out since last GE, the Conservative party need to start persuading more young people and ethnic minorities to vote for them if they want to win in 2022.
What if people just have values that are totally at variance with yours? How do you win them over?
One comment I've heard several times in relation to child rape cases, involving Muslim men, is that while these are bad, they should be "punished by the community" rather than through the criminal justice system. Which translates as, they should be swept under the carpet.
That represents a very huge difference in outlook between Conservatives and these communities.
Surely it doesn't matter what "punished by the community" means. What matters is that whatever it means, it is not the law of the land and so has no jurisdiction.
And re the comment about why some groups don’t vote Tory: well, if you tell a group of people you don’t really like them, then they won’t for you. Or at the very least if you give them that impression, they won’t vote for you. That’s why young people don’t vote Tory, and it’s been a significant reason why ethnic minorities generally don’t vote Tory either. And as we’ve found out since last GE, the Conservative party need to start persuading more young people and ethnic minorities to vote for them if they want to win in 2022.
What if people just have values that are totally at variance with yours? How do you win them over?
One comment I've heard several times in relation to child rape cases, involving Muslim men, is that while these are bad, they should be "punished by the community" rather than through the criminal justice system. Which translates as, they should be swept under the carpet.
That represents a very huge difference in outlook between Conservatives and these communities.
Surely it doesn't matter what "punished by the community" means. What matters is that whatever it means, it is not the law of the land and so has no jurisdiction.
What effect (if any) do you think the death of the Queen might have on politics in this country if it happens in this parliament?
It would dominate the news for at least 6 months (think Brexit x10), the state funeral and the coronation of King Charles IIIrd. Some in Labour around Corbyn may try to push the republican cause on the accession of the new monarch but I think he will prove a more hardworking monarch than some imagine and of course the future of the monarchy, William and Kate and their children and Harry will come even more to the fore.
And re the comment about why some groups don’t vote Tory: well, if you tell a group of people you don’t really like them, then they won’t for you. Or at the very least if you give them that impression, they won’t vote for you. That’s why young people don’t vote Tory, and it’s been a significant reason why ethnic minorities generally don’t vote Tory either. And as we’ve found out since last GE, the Conservative party need to start persuading more young people and ethnic minorities to vote for them if they want to win in 2022.
What if people just have values that are totally at variance with yours? How do you win them over?
One comment I've heard several times in relation to child rape cases, involving Muslim men, is that while these are bad, they should be "punished by the community" rather than through the criminal justice system. Which translates as, they should be swept under the carpet.
That represents a very huge difference in outlook between Conservatives and these communities.
Surely it doesn't matter what "punished by the community" means. What matters is that whatever it means, it is not the law of the land and so has no jurisdiction.
I agree with you, but it's not how some voters from "the community" see it. They would see it as an attack on them.
And re the comment about why some groups don’t vote Tory: well, if you tell a group of people you don’t really like them, then they won’t for you. Or at the very least if you give them that impression, they won’t vote for you. That’s why young people don’t vote Tory, and it’s been a significant reason why ethnic minorities generally don’t vote Tory either. And as we’ve found out since last GE, the Conservative party need to start persuading more young people and ethnic minorities to vote for them if they want to win in 2022.
What if people just have values that are totally at variance with yours? How do you win them over?
One comment I've heard several times in relation to child rape cases, involving Muslim men, is that while these are bad, they should be "punished by the community" rather than through the criminal justice system. Which translates as, they should be swept under the carpet.
That represents a very huge difference in outlook between Conservatives and these communities.
No one is suggesting that the Conservatives win over individuals who believe that though. There are many minorities (such as myself) who don’t believe those things. For a start not all minorities believe in a specific kind of interpretation of the Muslim faith.
But the Conservatives are going to have win over more minorities in the future if they want to win, that’s the reality.
The Tories already do pretty well with Hindus and Jews and Orientals, those are the groups they need to focus on building their strength with first.
And re the comment about why some groups don’t vote Tory: well, if you tell a group of people you don’t really like them, then they won’t for you. Or at the very least if you give them that impression, they won’t vote for you. That’s why young people don’t vote Tory, and it’s been a significant reason why ethnic minorities generally don’t vote Tory either. And as we’ve found out since last GE, the Conservative party need to start persuading more young people and ethnic minorities to vote for them if they want to win in 2022.
What if people just have values that are totally at variance with yours? How do you win them over?
One comment I've heard several times in relation to child rape cases, involving Muslim men, is that while these are bad, they should be "punished by the community" rather than through the criminal justice system. Which translates as, they should be swept under the carpet.
That represents a very huge difference in outlook between Conservatives and these communities.
No one is suggesting that the Conservatives win over individuals who believe that though. There are many minorities (such as myself) who don’t believe those things. For a start not all minorities believe in a specific kind of interpretation of the Muslim faith.
But the Conservatives are going to have win over more minorities in the future if they want to win, that’s the reality.
But we have had Labour politicians winning over some in such communities by happily speaking at gender segregated meetings without so much as a squeak of complaint. Do you want to the Tories to do that too? We have seen a number of Labour councillors speak in grossly offensive and anti-semitic ways because they have judged that they will gain more support than they will lose. Do you want the Tories do that too?
And what does that say to others who rather value equality between men and women? Or who think that pandering to racist views is horrible. And who think that winning over communities should not involve abandoning key values and key tenets of British law?
There may well be a problem with how Conservatives approach ethnic minorities. But you are overlooking a very real issue with how some minorities expect to be pandered to even when behaving in a way that is quite contrary to British values and indeed the values of the party they support.
At what point do you abandon your values in the pursuit of votes?
What effect (if any) do you think the death of the Queen might have on politics in this country if it happens in this parliament?
It would dominate the news for at least 6 months (think Brexit x10), the state funeral and the coronation of King Charles IIIrd. Some in Labour around Corbyn may try to push the republican cause on the accession of the new monarch but I think he will prove a more hardworking monarch than some imagine and of course the future of the monarchy, William and Kate and their children and Harry will come even more to the fore.
Rexit?
Even if Charles is not as popular as his mother I venture he will be more popular than the PM of the day ie the next Tory leader or Corbyn if he becomes King in this Parliament.
Would Uganda be in or out? On the one hand it has state sponsored homophobia, but on the other hand someone from Uganda could not be homophobic at all. They could even be gay. But how would you really know at the point they arrive?
It seems to me that this logic leads to Trumps muslim ban, where you get moderate muslims from Iraq who have fought at great personal danger with the Americans, refused a visa because of these arbitrary rules.
I am posing these problems because I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but don't agree with your solutions. The danger is that we get stuck in inertia while the world collapses around us. Something pretty fundamental has to change though.
It is very difficult to see into mens' souls as you say.
What you can do is limit certain types of immigration where you already know there are problems e.g. cousin marriages from Pakistan, say. You don't, like Mrs Merkel, let in en masse a load of young men who have fought their way to your border. You have schemes which allow in those from strife ridden countries who are the most vulnerable e.g. persecuted Yazidis and Syrian Christians. You have some sort of intelligent points system which lets in those with real value to a country - skills, education, with no obvious bad points against them. And you have numerical limits on those allowed in from certain countries or groups of countries, precisely so as to avoid creating large communities of people who do not have to integrate. And above all you make a concerted effort to make immigrants integrate and adopt a British outlook. So rather than say that it is OK to live in Britain as if you were still in your Waziristan village you make sure that this is not really an option (you have to learn English and so on). And if people break the rules then you have to have an effective way of deporting them.
That was a great article, I remember reading that at the time.
I can't help thinking though that we need to work out what the biggest threat is. And it is pretty clear to me that this is Islamic extremism. If you make life hard enough for Islamic extremists they will eventually go somewhere else.
And re the comment about why some groups don’t vote Tory: well, if you tell a group of people you don’t really like them, then they won’t for you. Or at the very least if you give them that impression, they won’t vote for you. That’s why young people don’t vote Tory, and it’s been a significant reason why ethnic minorities generally don’t vote Tory either. And as we’ve found out since last GE, the Conservative party need to start persuading more young people and ethnic minorities to vote for them if they want to win in 2022.
What if people just have values that are totally at variance with yours? How do you win them over?
One comment I've heard several times in relation to child rape cases, involving Muslim men, is that while these are bad, they should be "punished by the community" rather than through the criminal justice system. Which translates as, they should be swept under the carpet.
That represents a very huge difference in outlook between Conservatives and these communities.
No one is suggesting that the Conservatives win over individuals who believe that though. There are many minorities (such as myself) who don’t believe those things. For a start not all minorities believe in a specific kind of interpretation of the Muslim faith.
But the Conservatives are going to have win over more minorities in the future if they want to win, that’s the reality.
I'll refer to another point raised by @Nick C earlier. It does not relate specifically to ethnic minorities, but it does does relate to values.
He said some young people simply view support for Brexit as being a sign of bad character. They hate the idea of Britain espoused by a book like Our Island Story which they identify with the Conservatives.
Now, I don't see how any right wing party worth its name could appeal to such voters, unless they radically alter their opinions. Some voters are unreachable..
@Cyclefree In regard to your first points: obviously I don’t think they should do that, I’m a feminist and have spoken out previously on the issue of anti-semitism within Labour on this site.
You seem to think ethnic minorities = Muslims with anti-gay and misogynistic views, which is odd given that there we know that there are many different minorities communities within the country.
If you believe that there’s seriously a question of having to ‘abandon their values’ (values which were hardly against homophobia as recently as the early 2000s) in order to appeal to more ethnic minorities, then well I really don’t know what to say.
The Conservatives have had issue with ethnic minorities for a long time, and the idea it down to the Tory party having socially liberal values....is odd, given that they’ve had these issues even when they weren’t very socially liberal.
And re the comment about why some groups don’t vote Tory: well, if you tell a group of people you don’t really like them, then they won’t for you. Or at the very least if you give them that impression, they won’t vote for you. That’s why young people don’t vote Tory, and it’s been a significant reason why ethnic minorities generally don’t vote Tory either. And as we’ve found out since last GE, the Conservative party need to start persuading more young people and ethnic minorities to vote for them if they want to win in 2022.
What if people just have values that are totally at variance with yours? How do you win them over?
One comment I've heard several times in relation to child rape cases, involving Muslim men, is that while these are bad, they should be "punished by the community" rather than through the criminal justice system. Which translates as, they should be swept under the carpet.
That represents a very huge difference in outlook between Conservatives and these communities.
No one is suggesting that the Conservatives win over individuals who believe that though. There are many minorities (such as myself) who don’t believe those things. For a start not all minorities believe in a specific kind of interpretation of the Muslim faith.
But the Conservatives are going to have win over more minorities in the future if they want to win, that’s the reality.
The Conservatives are more popular with mixed-race people than other minorities, and they're the fastest-growing ethnic group IIRC.
I think this horror about Muslim groups holding "gender segregated" meetings is such a load of guff. As if that's the most pressing issue, or as if it's only Muslims who do that.
When we do unfortunately have a significant minority of Muslims who believe in the truly evil "jihadist" ideology, I would say it's pretty damaging to instead be focussing on such trivial crap as gender-segregated meetings, burqas or halal meat.
And re the comment about why some groups don’t vote Tory: well, if you tell a group of people you don’t really like them, then they won’t for you. Or at the very least if you give them that impression, they won’t vote for you. That’s why young people don’t vote Tory, and it’s been a significant reason why ethnic minorities generally don’t vote Tory either. And as we’ve found out since last GE, the Conservative party need to start persuading more young people and ethnic minorities to vote for them if they want to win in 2022.
What if people just have values that are totally at variance with yours? How do you win them over?
One comment I've heard several times in relation to child rape cases, involving Muslim men, is that while these are bad, they should be "punished by the community" rather than through the criminal justice system. Which translates as, they should be swept under the carpet.
That represents a very huge difference in outlook between Conservatives and these communities.
No one is suggesting that the Conservatives win over individuals who believe that though. There are many minorities (such as myself) who don’t believe those things. For a start not all minorities believe in a specific kind of interpretation of the Muslim faith.
But the Conservatives are going to have win over more minorities in the future if they want to win, that’s the reality.
I'll refer to another point raised by @Nick C earlier. It does not relate specifically to ethnic minorities, but it does does relate to values.
He said some young people simply view support for Brexit as being a sign of bad character. They hate the idea of Britain espoused by a book like Our Island Story which they identify with the Conservatives.
Now, I don't see how any right wing party worth its name could appeal to such voters, unless they radically alter their opinions. Some voters are unreachable..
If I’m really being honest, I haven’t read/am not familiar with Our Island Story, so I can’t talk about that. But ethnic minorities/young people are unreachable for the Conservatives then the Conservatives have big issues in the future.
And re the comment about why some groups don’t vote Tory: well, if you tell a group of people you don’t really like them, then they won’t for you. Or at the very least if you give them that impression, they won’t vote for you. That’s why young people don’t vote Tory, and it’s been a significant reason why ethnic minorities generally don’t vote Tory either. And as we’ve found out since last GE, the Conservative party need to start persuading more young people and ethnic minorities to vote for them if they want to win in 2022.
What if people just have values that are totally at variance with yours? How do you win them over?
One comment I've heard several times in relation to child rape cases, involving Muslim men, is that while these are bad, they should be "punished by the community" rather than through the criminal justice system. Which translates as, they should be swept under the carpet.
That represents a very huge difference in outlook between Conservatives and these communities.
No one is suggesting that the Conservatives win over individuals who believe that though. There are many minorities (such as myself) who don’t believe those things. For a start not all minorities believe in a specific kind of interpretation of the Muslim faith.
But the Conservatives are going to have win over more minorities in the future if they want to win, that’s the reality.
The Conservatives are more popular with mixed-race people than other minorities, and they're the fastest-growing ethnic group IIRC.
Evidence? Also is this evidence post 2017 GE? I say this, because the Tories went backwards with minorities at this GE.
And re the comment about why some groups don’t vote Tory: well, if you tell a group of people you don’t really like them, then they won’t for you. Or at the very least if you give them that impression, they won’t vote for you. That’s why young people don’t vote Tory, and it’s been a significant reason why ethnic minorities generally don’t vote Tory either. And as we’ve found out since last GE, the Conservative party need to start persuading more young people and ethnic minorities to vote for them if they want to win in 2022.
What if people just have values that are totally at variance with yours? How do you win them over?
One comment I've heard several times in relation to child rape cases, involving Muslim men, is that while these are bad, they should be "punished by the community" rather than through the criminal justice system. Which translates as, they should be swept under the carpet.
That represents a very huge difference in outlook between Conservatives and these communities.
No one is suggesting that the Conservatives win over individuals who believe that though. There are many minorities (such as myself) who don’t believe those things. For a start not all minorities believe in a specific kind of interpretation of the Muslim faith.
But the Conservatives are going to have win over more minorities in the future if they want to win, that’s the reality.
I'll refer to another point raised by @Nick C earlier. It does not relate specifically to ethnic minorities, but it does does relate to values.
He said some young people simply view support for Brexit as being a sign of bad character. They hate the idea of Britain espoused by a book like Our Island Story which they identify with the Conservatives.
Now, I don't see how any right wing party worth its name could appeal to such voters, unless they radically alter their opinions. Some voters are unreachable..
Hammond could stand up in the Budget and offer everybody a million pounds - and there would STILL be a sizeable chunk of Labour's vote who would say it was only "Tory guilt money" - and they wouldn't settle for less than two million.... Unreachable.
Richard Tyndall makes a good point on the Norwegian system. You have to complete 300 hours of language, culture and history lessons.
I would suggest a similiar system for the UK before anyone is granted the right to remain here long term (three years? so 100 hours of citizenship classes a year, or two hours a week - hardly a burden). With the added proviso that a 'fail' means refusal of right to remain in the UK.
These type of bureaucratic exercises rarely work out they way they were intended.
You may as well just make it much harder to actually become a citizen. At the moment it is very easy, happens automatically after you stay here for five years (slight exaggeration, but it still seems ridiculously easy). I'm not an expert at all but we probably need something more like the swiss system which puts a lot more scrutiny in to the process.
I'm all for more scrutiny. And yes, I'm aware that these bureaucratic exercises don't often end up as intended - but the point is we need to at least try. The current system, as you say, is "stay five years and bob's your uncle" and it's not fit for purpose. What it has allowed is the creation of a number of isolated communities with no interest in or reason to properly integrate - in many cases even learn the language. Naturally this causes alienation and resentment which in turn stokes the fuel that feeds the far right.
Cyclefree has raised some very good points this evening and in last year's header linked to downthread. In my view tightening up the immigration system and being able to openly state there is such a thing as "good" immigration and "bad" immigration without some corners immediately shouting racist! would be healthy for society. By all means, let's take people. But let's focus on creating a system where we only take the people who want to integrate and become part of our society. And let's stop the bigots, homophobes and religious nutcases at the door.
For me, the most important consideration is stemming the flow of those whose views and actions would be considered repugnant if spoken by a native Brit. To me it is the height of madness to import medievalism then nod it through on the grounds of cultural relativism. Not all cultures are equal. I rather like my liberal, tolerant society - and am prepared to be intolerant if I must, to keep it that way.
Just prohibit all immigration from majority-Muslim countries, it's not hard. We have no written constitution to prevent us, we will soon have no ECJ or ECHR to interfere.
Stop them coming.
Job done.
All western countries will, barring some unexpected Islamic Enlightenment, end up with a migration policy like this, though it might be phrased more emolliently.
It would solve nothing, just fuel further Islamic extremism amongst a small minority already in the country.
@Cyclefree In regard to your first points: obviously I don’t think they should do that, I’m a feminist and have spoken out previously on the issue of anti-semitism within Labour on this site.
You seem to think ethnic minorities = Muslims with anti-gay and misogynistic views, which is odd given that there we know that there are many different minorities communities within the country.
If you believe that there’s seriously a question of having to ‘abandon their values’ (values which were hardly against homophobia as recently as the early 2000s) in order to appeal to more ethnic minorities, then well I really don’t know what to say.
The Conservatives have had issue with ethnic minorities for a long time, and the idea it down to the Tory party having socially liberal values....is odd, given that they’ve had these issues even when they weren’t very socially liberal.
I do not speak for the Tories. I do call Labour out on its hypocrisy when its actions do not match its words. What I am trying to get from you - but clearly failing - is how far you think a party should abandon values, its own or those of the country, in its pursuit of votes from a particular minority.
Hard to know if John Simpson truly believes what he is saying.
Er... why do you say that?
Because it's the same kind of hyperbole as Zoe Williams' "Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid" after Boris Johnson got elected as London Mayor in 2008. The current government would have been branded "wet" by Mrs. Thatcher and Norman Tebbit. It's not some kind of hard right outfit.
@Cyclefree In regard to your first points: obviously I don’t think they should do that, I’m a feminist and have spoken out previously on the issue of anti-semitism within Labour on this site.
You seem to think ethnic minorities = Muslims with anti-gay and misogynistic views, which is odd given that there we know that there are many different minorities communities within the country.
If you believe that there’s seriously a question of having to ‘abandon their values’ (values which were hardly against homophobia as recently as the early 2000s) in order to appeal to more ethnic minorities, then well I really don’t know what to say.
The Conservatives have had issue with ethnic minorities for a long time, and the idea it down to the Tory party having socially liberal values....is odd, given that they’ve had these issues even when they weren’t very socially liberal.
I do not speak for the Tories. I do call Labour out on its hypocrisy when its actions do not match its words. What I am trying to get from you - but clearly failing - is how far you think a party should abandon values, its own or those of the country, in its pursuit of votes from a particular minority.
I disagreeing with your framing of things, that’s the whole point. It’s framing all minorities as having anti-British values, and framing attempts to appeal to them in a very negative way - that you give up this, that and the other to appeal to these minorities. It’s a framing that implies that there has been nothing wrong on the part of the Tories in relation to minorities; that the Conservatives party has better values than all minorities and that’s all these minorities fault because they all have terrible values apparently. That’s an odd way of seeing things for someone who calls themselves a liberal.
Nor have I suggested that the Conservative party should abandon the ‘values of the country’ to appeal to minorities. I see no reasons why would need to. That statement implies that in essence, most minorities do not believe in Britain’s values. If that’s what you believe then that’s pretty sad. It’s a view which will also make it harder for the Tories to win a majority at the next election: because whether you or others like it or not the Conservatives will have to make at least some improvement on their score with minorities if they want to win in 2022.
Hard to know if John Simpson truly believes what he is saying.
What’s interesting in that thread is the number of people who say there will be book burnings next. Presumably they are ignorant of the fact that we have had book burnings in this country. And it was accompanied by threats of death.
And re the comment about why some groups don’t vote Tory: well, if you tell a group of people you don’t really like them, then they won’t for you. Or at the very least if you give them that impression, they won’t vote for you. That’s why young people don’t vote Tory, and it’s been a significant reason why ethnic minorities generally don’t vote Tory either. And as we’ve found out since last GE, the Conservative party need to start persuading more young people and ethnic minorities to vote for them if they want to win in 2022.
One comment I've heard several times in relation to child rape cases, involving Muslim men, is that while these are bad, they should be "punished by the community" rather than through the criminal justice system. Which translates as, they should be swept under the carpet.
That represents a very huge difference in outlook between Conservatives and these communities.
No one is suggesting that the Conservatives win over individuals who believe that though. There are many minorities (such as myself) who don’t believe those things. For a start not all minorities believe in a specific kind of interpretation of the Muslim faith.
But the Conservatives are going to have win over more minorities in the future if they want to win, that’s the reality.
I'll refer to another point raised by @Nick C earlier. It does not relate specifically to ethnic minorities, but it does does relate to values.
He said some young people simply view support for Brexit as being a sign of bad character. They hate the idea of Britain espoused by a book like Our Island Story which they identify with the Conservatives.
Now, I don't see how any right wing party worth its name could appeal to such voters, unless they radically alter their opinions. Some voters are unreachable..
If I’m really being honest, I haven’t read/am not familiar with Our Island Story, so I can’t talk about that. But ethnic minorities/young people are unreachable for the Conservatives then the Conservatives have big issues in the future.
I do think the 'our country right or wrong' attitude of some in the Tory party is a turn-off for many young people...
Those I talk to care more about social values, their job and economic prospects, the environment etc. rather than UK sovereignty or Westiminster versus Brussels. Many of them are widely travelled at a young age and think of themselves as European as much as British.
The Tories will struggle with the young so long as they are seen to a) protect pensioners at the expense of the young, and b) focus on Europe as a dragon to be slayed.
Hard to know if John Simpson truly believes what he is saying.
Er... why do you say that?
Because it's the same kind of hyperbole as Zoe Williams' "Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid" after Boris Johnson got elected as London Mayor in 2008. The current government would have been branded "wet" by Mrs. Thatcher and Norman Tebbit. It's not some kind of hard right outfit.
He's talking about the state of the country as he sees it... I see no evidence that he doesn't believe what he tweets.
@Benpointer Or indeed, if they see minorities as this kind of alien force within British society. Most young people I know have a diverse group of friends; minorities to them are not a group of individuals with alien values, but rather individuals who are just as British as they are.
@Cyclefree In regard to your first points: obviously I don’t think they should do that, I’m a feminist and have spoken out previously on the issue of anti-semitism within Labour on this site.
You seem to think ethnic minorities = Muslims with anti-gay and misogynistic views, which is odd given that there we know that there are many different minorities communities within the country.
If you believe that there’s seriously a question of having to ‘abandon their values’ (values which were hardly against homophobia as recently as the early 2000s) in order to appeal to more ethnic minorities, then well I really don’t know what to say.
The Conservatives have had issue with ethnic minorities for a long time, and the idea it down to the Tory party having socially liberal values....is odd, given that they’ve had these issues even when they weren’t very socially liberal.
I do not speak for the Tories. I do call Labour out on its hypocrisy when its actions do not match its words. What I am trying to get from you - but clearly failing - is how far you think a party should abandon values, its own or those of the country, in its pursuit of votes from a particular minority.
I disagreeing with your framing of things, that’s the whole point. It’s framing all minorities as having anti-British values,
That's clearly untrue, since she said she supported the eastern european migration policy so didn't frame that minority that way, as being incompatible.
Hard to know if John Simpson truly believes what he is saying.
Er... why do you say that?
John Simpson is a fat, rich old dude who lives in South Africa, for a start. So all this flatulence about "his country" is worth as much as the mewling of those UKIPers who, it turns out, live on the Algarve
@Cyclefree In regard to your first points: obviously I don’t think they should do that, I’m a feminist and have spoken out previously on the issue of anti-semitism within Labour on this site.
You seem to think ethnic minorities = Muslims with anti-gay and misogynistic views, which is odd given that there we know that there are many different minorities communities within the country.
If you believe that there’s seriously a question of having to ‘abandon their values’ (values which were hardly against homophobia as recently as the early 2000s) in order to appeal to more ethnic minorities, then well I really don’t know what to say.
The Conservatives have had issue with ethnic minorities for a long time, and the idea it down to the Tory party having socially liberal values....is odd, given that they’ve had these issues even when they weren’t very socially liberal.
I do not speak for the Tories. I do call Labour out on its hypocrisy when its actions do not match its words. What I am trying to get from you - but clearly failing - is how far you think a party should abandon values, its own or those of the country, in its pursuit of votes from a particular minority.
I disagreeing with your framing of things, that’s the whole point. It’s framing all minorities as having anti-British values,
That's clearly untrue, since she said she supported the eastern european migration policy so didn't frame that minority that way.
It’s not clearly untrue, because in this context we’re talking about ethnic minorities.
@Cyclefree In regard to your first points: obviously I don’t think they should do that, I’m a feminist and have spoken out previously on the issue of anti-semitism within Labour on this site.
You seem to think ethnic minorities = Muslims with anti-gay and misogynistic views, which is odd given that there we know that there are many different minorities communities within the country.
If you believe that there’s seriously a question of having to ‘abandon their values’ (values which were hardly against homophobia as recently as the early 2000s) in order to appeal to more ethnic minorities, then well I really don’t know what to say.
The Conservatives have had issue with ethnic minorities for a long time, and the idea it down to the Tory party having socially liberal values....is odd, given that they’ve had these issues even when they weren’t very socially liberal.
I do not speak for the Tories. I do call Labour out on its hypocrisy when its actions do not match its words. What I am trying to get from you - but clearly failing - is how far you think a party should abandon values, its own or those of the country, in its pursuit of votes from a particular minority.
I disagreeing with your framing of things, that’s the whole point. It’s framing all minorities as having anti-British values, and framing attempts to appeal to them in a very negative way - that you give up this, that and the other to appeal to these minorities. It’s a framing that implies that there has been nothing wrong on the part of the Tories in relation to minorities; that the Conservatives party has better values than all minorities and that’s all these minorities fault because they all have terrible values apparently. That’s an odd way of seeing things for someone who calls themselves a liberal.
Nor have I suggested that the Conservative party should abandon the ‘values of the country’ to appeal to minorities. I see no reasons why would need to. That statement implies that in essence, most minorities do not believe in Britain’s values. If that’s what you believe then that’s pretty sad.
Please stop trying to attribute Tory policy to me. I do not speaknfor them I have said the complete opposite of what you attribute to me about minorities.
There have been examples, which I have given you, of some groups having values which are completely antithetical to liberal values and which some Labour politicians have pandered to.
And I have asked you: for any group of voters - let’s not make it an ethnic minority but a religious minority, say, Catholics - with views which are contrary to majority values, how far should a party seek to pander to those values rather than challenge them?
Hard to know if John Simpson truly believes what he is saying.
Er... why do you say that?
John Simpson is a fat, rich old dude who lives in South Africa, for a start. So all this flatulence about "his country" is worth as much as the mewling of those UKIPers who, it turns out, live on the Algarve
@Benpointer Or indeed, if they see minorities as this kind of alien force within British society. Most young people I know have a diverse group of friends; minorities to them are not a group of individuals with alien values, but rather individuals who are just as British as they are.
Agreed - good point. A big chunk of the Tories core, over-65 vote don't personally know anybody from an ethnic minority. Many of that generation suffer from the fear of the unknown and/or people who are different to themselves.
I suspect a big chunk of the dwindling Tory membership are in that category and any Tory leadership candidates will have to play to that audience - in so doing they will fail to win over large chunks of the younger vote. It a tricky one for Tories to solve - can't see how they will do it myself!
Hard to know if John Simpson truly believes what he is saying.
Er... why do you say that?
John Simpson is a fat, rich old dude who lives in South Africa, for a start. So all this flatulence about "his country" is worth as much as the mewling of those UKIPers who, it turns out, live on the Algarve
@Cyclefree In regard to your first points: obviously I don’t think they should do that, I’m a feminist and have spoken out previously on the issue of anti-semitism within Labour on this site.
You seem to think ethnic minorities = Muslims with anti-gay and misogynistic views, which is odd given that there we know that there are many different minorities communities within the country.
If you believe that there’s seriously a question of having to ‘abandon their values’ (values which were hardly against homophobia as recently as the early 2000s) in order to appeal to more ethnic minorities, then well I really don’t know what to say.
The Conservatives have had issue with ethnic minorities for a long time, and the idea it down to the Tory party having socially liberal values....is odd, given that they’ve had these issues even when they weren’t very socially liberal.
I do not speak for the Tories. I do call Labour out on its hypocrisy when its actions do not match its words. What I am trying to get from you - but clearly failing - is how far you think a party should abandon values, its own or those of the country, in its pursuit of votes from a particular minority.
I disagreeing with your framing of things, that’s the whole point. It’s framing all minorities as having anti-British values,
That's clearly untrue, since she said she supported the eastern european migration policy so didn't frame that minority that way.
It’s not clearly untrue, because in this context we’re talking about ethnic minorities.
You might be. I am not. Poles are an ethic minority. Muslims are not. Some groups have values which are incompatible with British values. Many others, whether ethnic or religious minorities or immigrants do not.
The Tories’ problems are that they speak to or for very few people really, in a positive sense. And seem to be intent on pissing off the rest.
Ms Apocalypse is right that giving the impression that you don’t like the people you want to govern is not an obviously winning formula. My point is that in reaching out to voters you need to have some core beliefs and values and not simply pander to whatever prospective voters want, especially when doing so would involve you abandoning those core beliefs and values.
I’m not asking the Conservative part to appeal to those who ‘do not have the values of the majority’. Where the hell I have said that? This is what I say when I disagree with your framing. I’ve said the Conservatives need to improve with ethnic minorities - and you’ve taken that and interpreted to ‘how far should the Conservative party go to appeal to those who don’t share British values?’ Don’t you see how that statement implies that appealing to minorities means automatically having to appeal to anti-British values? Don’t you see how that statement implies that there are no minorities with the values of the majority in general, so that means that the Conservative party would somehow have to go against the values of the majority to appeal to them?
Can’t you see that? Why assume that when it is said the Conservative party needed to improve with ethnic minorities that meant appealing to those who believe in gender segregation? The Conservative party has more ethnic minority MPs than it did prior to Cameron’s leadership: surely, that should demonstrate to you that ‘appeal to ethnic minorities’ does not mean appeal to misogynists? Especially given that you are talking to a mixed woman right now, who on this blog site had long written posts against misogyny, homophobia etc.
@Cyclefree In regard to your first points: obviously I don’t think they should do that, I’m a feminist and have spoken out previously on the issue of anti-semitism within Labour on this site.
You seem to think ethnic minorities = Muslims with anti-gay and misogynistic views, which is odd given that there we know that there are many different minorities communities within the country.
If you believe that there’s seriously a question of having to ‘abandon their values’ (values which were hardly against homophobia as recently as the early 2000s) in order to appeal to more ethnic minorities, then well I really don’t know what to say.
The Conservatives have had issue with ethnic minorities for a long time, and the idea it down to the Tory party having socially liberal values....is odd, given that they’ve had these issues even when they weren’t very socially liberal.
I do not speak for the Tories. I do call Labour out on its hypocrisy when its actions do not match its words. What I am trying to get from you - but clearly failing - is how far you think a party should abandon values, its own or those of the country, in its pursuit of votes from a particular minority.
I disagreeing with your framing of things, that’s the whole point. It’s framing all minorities as having anti-British values,
That's clearly untrue, since she said she supported the eastern european migration policy so didn't frame that minority that way.
It’s not clearly untrue, because in this context we’re talking about ethnic minorities.
You might be. I am not. Poles are an ethic minority. Muslims are not. Some groups have values which are incompatible with British values. Many others, whether ethnic or religious minorities or immigrants do not.
The Tories’ problems are that they speak to or for very few people really, in a positive sense. And seem to be intent on pissing off the rest.
Ms Apocalypse is right that giving the impression that you don’t like the people you want to govern is not an obviously winning formula. My point is that in reaching out to voters you need to have some core beliefs and values and not simply pander to whatever prospective voters want, especially when doing so would involve you abandoning those core beliefs and values.
Anyway, time for bed.
Thanks for the discussion.
Muslims may not technically be an ethnic minority, but the groups which are Muslims tend to be ethnic minorities.
I’m not asking for anyone to be ‘pandered’ to. Cameron made some progress with appealing to ethnic minorities and I’m sure that didn’t involve ‘pandering’.
Comments
But the Conservatives are going to have win over more minorities in the future if they want to win, that’s the reality.
And what does that say to others who rather value equality between men and women? Or who think that pandering to racist views is horrible. And who think that winning over communities should not involve abandoning key values and key tenets of British law?
There may well be a problem with how Conservatives approach ethnic minorities. But you are overlooking a very real issue with how some minorities expect to be pandered to even when behaving in a way that is quite contrary to British values and indeed the values of the party they support.
At what point do you abandon your values in the pursuit of votes?
I can't help thinking though that we need to work out what the biggest threat is. And it is pretty clear to me that this is Islamic extremism. If you make life hard enough for Islamic extremists they will eventually go somewhere else.
It seems that this is the bigger issue.
He said some young people simply view support for Brexit as being a sign of bad character. They hate the idea of Britain espoused by a book like Our Island Story which they identify with the Conservatives.
Now, I don't see how any right wing party worth its name could appeal to such voters, unless they radically alter their opinions. Some voters are unreachable..
In regard to your first points: obviously I don’t think they should do that, I’m a feminist and have spoken out previously on the issue of anti-semitism within Labour on this site.
You seem to think ethnic minorities = Muslims with anti-gay and misogynistic views, which is odd given that there we know that there are many different minorities communities within the country.
If you believe that there’s seriously a question of having to ‘abandon their values’ (values which were hardly against homophobia as recently as the early 2000s) in order to appeal to more ethnic minorities, then well I really don’t know what to say.
The Conservatives have had issue with ethnic minorities for a long time, and the idea it down to the Tory party having socially liberal values....is odd, given that they’ve had these issues even when they weren’t very socially liberal.
When we do unfortunately have a significant minority of Muslims who believe in the truly evil "jihadist" ideology, I would say it's pretty damaging to instead be focussing on such trivial crap as gender-segregated meetings, burqas or halal meat.
Cyclefree has raised some very good points this evening and in last year's header linked to downthread. In my view tightening up the immigration system and being able to openly state there is such a thing as "good" immigration and "bad" immigration without some corners immediately shouting racist! would be healthy for society. By all means, let's take people. But let's focus on creating a system where we only take the people who want to integrate and become part of our society. And let's stop the bigots, homophobes and religious nutcases at the door.
For me, the most important consideration is stemming the flow of those whose views and actions would be considered repugnant if spoken by a native Brit. To me it is the height of madness to import medievalism then nod it through on the grounds of cultural relativism. Not all cultures are equal. I rather like my liberal, tolerant society - and am prepared to be intolerant if I must, to keep it that way.
Nor have I suggested that the Conservative party should abandon the ‘values of the country’ to appeal to minorities. I see no reasons why would need to. That statement implies that in essence, most minorities do not believe in Britain’s values. If that’s what you believe then that’s pretty sad. It’s a view which will also make it harder for the Tories to win a majority at the next election: because whether you or others like it or not the Conservatives will have to make at least some improvement on their score with minorities if they want to win in 2022.
Hate did not start in June 2016.
Those I talk to care more about social values, their job and economic prospects, the environment etc. rather than UK sovereignty or Westiminster versus Brussels. Many of them are widely travelled at a young age and think of themselves as European as much as British.
The Tories will struggle with the young so long as they are seen to a) protect pensioners at the expense of the young, and b) focus on Europe as a dragon to be slayed.
Or indeed, if they see minorities as this kind of alien force within British society. Most young people I know have a diverse group of friends; minorities to them are not a group of individuals with alien values, but rather individuals who are just as British as they are.
Suspect the main reason Sean thinks that is because Simpson's tweets don't accord with his (SF's) own views - It's aka wishful thinking.
There have been examples, which I have given you, of some groups having values which are completely antithetical to liberal values and which some Labour politicians have pandered to.
And I have asked you: for any group of voters - let’s not make it an ethnic minority but a religious minority, say, Catholics - with views which are contrary to majority values, how far should a party seek to pander to those values rather than challenge them?
The German economy.
I suspect a big chunk of the dwindling Tory membership are in that category and any Tory leadership candidates will have to play to that audience - in so doing they will fail to win over large chunks of the younger vote. It a tricky one for Tories to solve - can't see how they will do it myself!
... while accusing the rest of Britain of having a nervous breakdown...
Slight overreaction to a storm in a teacup, Mr. Peston.
The Tories’ problems are that they speak to or for very few people really, in a positive sense. And seem to be intent on pissing off the rest.
Ms Apocalypse is right that giving the impression that you don’t like the people you want to govern is not an obviously winning formula. My point is that in reaching out to voters you need to have some core beliefs and values and not simply pander to whatever prospective voters want, especially when doing so would involve you abandoning those core beliefs and values.
Anyway, time for bed.
Thanks for the discussion.
I’m not asking the Conservative part to appeal to those who ‘do not have the values of the majority’. Where the hell I have said that? This is what I say when I disagree with your framing. I’ve said the Conservatives need to improve with ethnic minorities - and you’ve taken that and interpreted to ‘how far should the Conservative party go to appeal to those who don’t share British values?’ Don’t you see how that statement implies that appealing to minorities means automatically having to appeal to anti-British values? Don’t you see how that statement implies that there are no minorities with the values of the majority in general, so that means that the Conservative party would somehow have to go against the values of the majority to appeal to them?
Can’t you see that? Why assume that when it is said the Conservative party needed to improve with ethnic minorities that meant appealing to those who believe in gender segregation? The Conservative party has more ethnic minority MPs than it did prior to Cameron’s leadership: surely, that should demonstrate to you that ‘appeal to ethnic minorities’ does not mean appeal to misogynists? Especially given that you are talking to a mixed woman right now, who on this blog site had long written posts against misogyny, homophobia etc.
I’m not asking for anyone to be ‘pandered’ to. Cameron made some progress with appealing to ethnic minorities and I’m sure that didn’t involve ‘pandering’.