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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 78,431
    edited November 2017
    HYUFD said:

    It is clear you have more in common ideologically now with the Tories than the LDs and you even voted LD in June but I cannot force you to do anything the decision of where you place your allegiance still lies with you

    A brilliant typo there.

    I voted Lib Dem in June because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem contest, and I had heard that Jared O'Mara was a tool.

    (And I also did a vote swap to help a Tory gain a seat from Lab)

    Indeed that well known Lib Dem rag The Daily Mail encouraged Tory voters in Hallam to vote Lib Dem.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,105
    TonyE said:

    When the UK government called a Referendum on membership of the EU, I wasn't entirely enthused. Referendums are not a good way of deciding such issues. If you run them on a plain majority then the chances are victories will be narrow. If you put an artificial threshold in, then the advantage to one side is obvious.

    But, once they had called it, there was only one choice for me. I had to campaign to leave, because if we did not win at this stage then full federal integration would have been a certainty. It might have taken a while, but like Lisbon, Governments when thwarted in their ability to do what they desire (the EU Constitution), will simply lie (a tidying up exercise). They only ask the public when backed into a corner on the big issues.

    The bile and hatred that is now flying around is symptomatic of the fact that the referendum itself was a bad idea. But also of the fact that for 30-40 years both main parties had not just accepted integration, but actively pursued it in the face of majority objection, especially after 1997. And often to achieve it, they dissembled. Had one party actually represented the majority of the British people on European integration 30 years ago, we would never have got to this point at all.

    +1
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 1,785
    RobD said:

    felix said:

    What an appalling thread! Bizarre personal and quite nasty attacks on HYUFD, endless insults about the intelligence of leave voters - not a shred of rational argument about anything. The site is deteriorating badly. I voted Remain but increasingly unfond of my fellow travellers.

    Like you, I yearn for the days of AV and Scottish Independence. :p
    Indeed. It resembles more the "You're the Blarite! No your're the blairite!" tit for tat that Labour have descended into.

    "Why don't you f*** off to the Lib Dems" has long been a Labour refrain... sad to see it here.

    I think there is room for both TSE's views and HYUFD's views within the same party.

    Indeed, one might argue that in order to build an electoral coalition capable of defeating Labour at the ballot box, both views need to find common ground and sit together under one broad church, otherwise we might as well all just give up and let Corbyn walk into Number 10 unopposed.


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 65,304
    edited November 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mrs Thatcher as PM stopped any more grammar school closures.

    Source?
    No grammar school as far as I am aware converted to a comprehensive in the 1980s, large numbers converted to comprehensives in the 1970s
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,334
    RobD said:

    RobD said:



    They certainly didn't promise exactly the same benefits of EU membership.

    But the leave campaign did promise lots of things which cannot and will not be delivered. So there is an arguable case for the voters to be asked again.
    And do you keep on asking until they vote the correct way?
    Certainly. Leavers have spent 40 years demanding a second referendum - I see no reason for remainers to refrain from demanding a third.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 41,448

    RobD said:

    RobD said:



    They certainly didn't promise exactly the same benefits of EU membership.

    But the leave campaign did promise lots of things which cannot and will not be delivered. So there is an arguable case for the voters to be asked again.
    And do you keep on asking until they vote the correct way?
    Certainly. Leavers have spent 40 years demanding a second referendum - I see no reason for remainers to refrain from demanding a third.
    Sometime in 2050 sounds good. ;)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 65,304
    kyf_100 said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    What an appalling thread! Bizarre personal and quite nasty attacks on HYUFD, endless insults about the intelligence of leave voters - not a shred of rational argument about anything. The site is deteriorating badly. I voted Remain but increasingly unfond of my fellow travellers.

    Like you, I yearn for the days of AV and Scottish Independence. :p
    Indeed. It resembles more the "You're the Blarite! No your're the blairite!" tit for tat that Labour have descended into.

    "Why don't you f*** off to the Lib Dems" has long been a Labour refrain... sad to see it here.

    I think there is room for both TSE's views and HYUFD's views within the same party.

    Indeed, one might argue that in order to build an electoral coalition capable of defeating Labour at the ballot box, both views need to find common ground and sit together under one broad church, otherwise we might as well all just give up and let Corbyn walk into Number 10 unopposed.


    He would not be unopposed, neither a Tory nor a LD vote is a Corbyn vote indeed in Hallam where TSE is the LDs are the main opponents to Labour
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 65,304

    HYUFD said:

    It is clear you have more in common ideologically now with the Tories than the LDs and you even voted LD in June but I cannot force you to do anything the decision of where you place your allegiance still lies with you

    A brilliant typo there.

    I voted Lib Dem in June because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem contest, and I had heard that Jared O'Mara was a tool.

    (And I also did a vote swap to help a Tory gain a seat from Lab)

    Indeed that well known Lib Dem rag The Daily Mail encouraged Tory voters in Hallam to vote Lib Dem.
    So why break the habit?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 29,990
    kyf_100 said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    What an appalling thread! Bizarre personal and quite nasty attacks on HYUFD, endless insults about the intelligence of leave voters - not a shred of rational argument about anything. The site is deteriorating badly. I voted Remain but increasingly unfond of my fellow travellers.

    Like you, I yearn for the days of AV and Scottish Independence. :p
    Indeed. It resembles more the "You're the Blarite! No your're the blairite!" tit for tat that Labour have descended into.

    "Why don't you f*** off to the Lib Dems" has long been a Labour refrain... sad to see it here.

    I think there is room for both TSE's views and HYUFD's views within the same party.

    Indeed, one might argue that in order to build an electoral coalition capable of defeating Labour at the ballot box, both views need to find common ground and sit together under one broad church, otherwise we might as well all just give up and let Corbyn walk into Number 10 unopposed.


    Proud to be part of the broadest church in British politics: The Conservative Party.

  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It is clear you have more in common ideologically now with the Tories than the LDs and you even voted LD in June but I cannot force you to do anything the decision of where you place your allegiance still lies with you

    A brilliant typo there.

    I voted Lib Dem in June because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem contest, and I had heard that Jared O'Mara was a tool.

    (And I also did a vote swap to help a Tory gain a seat from Lab)

    Indeed that well known Lib Dem rag The Daily Mail encouraged Tory voters in Hallam to vote Lib Dem.
    So why break the habit?
    Because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem fight, the Tories were no longer contenders, and I wanted Jeremy Corbyn to have as few MPs as possible, the fewer he had, the greater the chance of him going as Labour leader.

    Plus my vote here could help elect a Tory MP elsewhere.
  • Sigh....

    We Brits are far more likely to be able to travel than some of our foreign counterparts. White men such as Benedict Allen should cease their meaningless, problematic “explorations” and focus instead on the ways they can counter the privileges they inhabit, at home and abroad.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/17/benedict-allen-explorer-racist-british-colonial
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 29,990

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It is clear you have more in common ideologically now with the Tories than the LDs and you even voted LD in June but I cannot force you to do anything the decision of where you place your allegiance still lies with you

    A brilliant typo there.

    I voted Lib Dem in June because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem contest, and I had heard that Jared O'Mara was a tool.

    (And I also did a vote swap to help a Tory gain a seat from Lab)

    Indeed that well known Lib Dem rag The Daily Mail encouraged Tory voters in Hallam to vote Lib Dem.
    So why break the habit?
    Because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem fight, the Tories were no longer contenders, and I wanted Jeremy Corbyn to have as few MPs as possible, the fewer he had, the greater the chance of him going as Labour leader.

    Plus my vote here could help elect a Tory MP elsewhere.
    The Tories are no longer contenders because so many Tories have "lent" the LibDems their vote in Hallam. Now, if they all stopped.....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 56,220

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It is clear you have more in common ideologically now with the Tories than the LDs and you even voted LD in June but I cannot force you to do anything the decision of where you place your allegiance still lies with you

    A brilliant typo there.

    I voted Lib Dem in June because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem contest, and I had heard that Jared O'Mara was a tool.

    (And I also did a vote swap to help a Tory gain a seat from Lab)

    Indeed that well known Lib Dem rag The Daily Mail encouraged Tory voters in Hallam to vote Lib Dem.
    So why break the habit?
    Because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem fight, the Tories were no longer contenders, and I wanted Jeremy Corbyn to have as few MPs as possible, the fewer he had, the greater the chance of him going as Labour leader.

    Plus my vote here could help elect a Tory MP elsewhere.
    The Tories are no longer contenders because so many Tories have "lent" the LibDems their vote in Hallam. Now, if they all stopped.....
    Lee Rowley might lose North East Derbyshire :innocent face:
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It is clear you have more in common ideologically now with the Tories than the LDs and you even voted LD in June but I cannot force you to do anything the decision of where you place your allegiance still lies with you

    A brilliant typo there.

    I voted Lib Dem in June because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem contest, and I had heard that Jared O'Mara was a tool.

    (And I also did a vote swap to help a Tory gain a seat from Lab)

    Indeed that well known Lib Dem rag The Daily Mail encouraged Tory voters in Hallam to vote Lib Dem.
    So why break the habit?
    Because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem fight, the Tories were no longer contenders, and I wanted Jeremy Corbyn to have as few MPs as possible, the fewer he had, the greater the chance of him going as Labour leader.

    Plus my vote here could help elect a Tory MP elsewhere.
    The Tories are no longer contenders because so many Tories have "lent" the LibDems their vote in Hallam. Now, if they all stopped.....
    I think the lack of Tory councillors in Sheffield tells you the story of the decline of the Tory party in Sheffield.

    We were once the only beacon of light and hope in the People's Republic of South Yorkshire.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It is clear you have more in common ideologically now with the Tories than the LDs and you even voted LD in June but I cannot force you to do anything the decision of where you place your allegiance still lies with you

    A brilliant typo there.

    I voted Lib Dem in June because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem contest, and I had heard that Jared O'Mara was a tool.

    (And I also did a vote swap to help a Tory gain a seat from Lab)

    Indeed that well known Lib Dem rag The Daily Mail encouraged Tory voters in Hallam to vote Lib Dem.
    So why break the habit?
    Because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem fight, the Tories were no longer contenders, and I wanted Jeremy Corbyn to have as few MPs as possible, the fewer he had, the greater the chance of him going as Labour leader.

    Plus my vote here could help elect a Tory MP elsewhere.
    The Tories are no longer contenders because so many Tories have "lent" the LibDems their vote in Hallam. Now, if they all stopped.....
    They did and Labour took the seat with the Tories third.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @jessicaelgot: Tusk asked about Davis' comments that the EU is the one who needs to compromise now.
    "I really appreciate Mr Davis' English sense of humour."
    Collective "ooof!" from UK hacks.
  • Why is there an avocado icon in this tweet about BBC wanting to make a homeowners video?

  • Britain Elects‏
    @britainelects

    122 council by-elections have been held since GE2017.
    Results so far:

    Lab: 53 (+9)
    Con: 46 (-10)
    LDem: 13 (+4)
    Grn: 2 (+2)
    UKIP: 0 (-5)
    [Oth]: 8 (-)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 41,448

    Why is there an avocado icon in this tweet about BBC wanting to make a homeowners video?

    There was an article a few days ago saying young people wasted too much money on avocado.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 41,448

    Sigh....

    We Brits are far more likely to be able to travel than some of our foreign counterparts. White men such as Benedict Allen should cease their meaningless, problematic “explorations” and focus instead on the ways they can counter the privileges they inhabit, at home and abroad.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/17/benedict-allen-explorer-racist-british-colonial

    Peak Guardian?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 21,119

    Why is there an avocado icon in this tweet about BBC wanting to make a homeowners video?

    serious question? Because of what Sajid Javid said yesterday about smashed ones.

    https://theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/16/sajid-javid-defends-millennials-housing-market-avocados
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Why is there an avocado icon in this tweet about BBC wanting to make a homeowners video?

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 29,990
    Scott_P said:

    @jessicaelgot: Tusk asked about Davis' comments that the EU is the one who needs to compromise now.
    "I really appreciate Mr Davis' English sense of humour."
    Collective "ooof!" from UK hacks.

    Let's see who is laughing when he presents the EU with a cheque for no pounds, no pence....
  • RobD said:

    Sigh....

    We Brits are far more likely to be able to travel than some of our foreign counterparts. White men such as Benedict Allen should cease their meaningless, problematic “explorations” and focus instead on the ways they can counter the privileges they inhabit, at home and abroad.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/17/benedict-allen-explorer-racist-british-colonial

    Peak Guardian?
    Seems to have less to do with race, and more to do with upper class public school overconfidence to me. Who thinks a remotely good idea to cross Papua New Guinea without a phone or GPS?!
  • Rocket man is having a new toy built...

    Satellite images suggest North Korea pursuing 'aggressive schedule' to build ballistic missile submarine

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/17/satellite-images-suggest-north-korea-aggressive-work-ballistic/
  • TOPPING said:

    Why is there an avocado icon in this tweet about BBC wanting to make a homeowners video?

    serious question? Because of what Sajid Javid said yesterday about smashed ones.

    https://theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/16/sajid-javid-defends-millennials-housing-market-avocados
    Thank you all. You miss one day's news and you are suddenly so out-of-the-loop.

    I can report that during the period that i saved up a deposit for a house as a young man by doing crazy overtime hours, I did not consume or indeed even smash any avocados.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 29,990

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    It is clear you have more in common ideologically now with the Tories than the LDs and you even voted LD in June but I cannot force you to do anything the decision of where you place your allegiance still lies with you

    A brilliant typo there.

    I voted Lib Dem in June because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem contest, and I had heard that Jared O'Mara was a tool.

    (And I also did a vote swap to help a Tory gain a seat from Lab)

    Indeed that well known Lib Dem rag The Daily Mail encouraged Tory voters in Hallam to vote Lib Dem.
    So why break the habit?
    Because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem fight, the Tories were no longer contenders, and I wanted Jeremy Corbyn to have as few MPs as possible, the fewer he had, the greater the chance of him going as Labour leader.

    Plus my vote here could help elect a Tory MP elsewhere.
    The Tories are no longer contenders because so many Tories have "lent" the LibDems their vote in Hallam. Now, if they all stopped.....
    They did and Labour took the seat with the Tories third.
    Well clearly they didn't. Or are you calling TSE a liar?
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,964
    Afternoon all :)

    There was unquestionably a period of convergence between the leaderships of the Conservative Party and Liberal Democrats in the post-Blair era. The Orange Bookers and "Liberal Conservatives" found much on which they could agree - I recall a number of Conservatives openly praising the ideas of David Laws and Steve Webb and some of them became Coalition policy.

    The degree to which that sense of convergence permeated the memberships of the two parties is more debatable - for some LDs the very thought of working with the Conservatives in any form was anathema while I know some Conservatives deeply resented the perceived influence of the LDs in decision making within the Coalition.

    The fact was the country needed political stability and both sides knew it - was that stability provided ? To an extent, yes, but the philosophical convergence did not long survive the realities of power. It was difficult for MPs on both sides to walk through the lobby supporting measures with which they and their Party passionately disagreed but which were part of the Coalition framework.

    Whether there could or should have been a pact for 2015 with Conservatives not opposing sitting LD MPs and vice versa is one for others to consider. The annihilation of the LDs undid forty five years of history and effectively destroyed the Party I joined in 1980.

    There's a new LD Party now - 3/4 of the membership joined after 2015 - with a view on the EU and A50 I find very hard to support. I find myself being pulled in both directions - on the one hand I find a lot of what McDonnell says on the economy interesting and for me the current model of capitalism is failing. I'm also hugely opposed to the Single Market and will not mourn its passing. That being said, I don't want the UK to become emotionally and culturally estranged from Europe - we may not be European but we are part of Europe.

    We are back to where we were in the mid 50s after Suez - trying to understand and carve out a place in the modern world. MacMillan chose Europe and sent Heath to get us into the embryonic Common Market. That started us on a journey which lasted nearly 60 years and ended on 23/6/16. We have yet to fully decide where we go next.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 38,085
    edited November 2017

    RobD said:

    Sigh....

    We Brits are far more likely to be able to travel than some of our foreign counterparts. White men such as Benedict Allen should cease their meaningless, problematic “explorations” and focus instead on the ways they can counter the privileges they inhabit, at home and abroad.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/17/benedict-allen-explorer-racist-british-colonial

    Peak Guardian?
    Seems to have less to do with race, and more to do with upper class public school overconfidence to me. Who thinks a remotely good idea to cross Papua New Guinea without a phone or GPS?!
    No no no, you have it all wrong. He isn't just a bit of a hooray henry plonker, he is a massive racist who needs to check his privilege....
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 27,841
    HYUFD said:

    Support for the monarchy and Unionism have always been Tory policies and TSE does not even support those either

    My political views do not fall very easily into any political party.

    Which means I can despise the lot of them.

    Remember voters: Use your cross wisely. Crucify a politician.
  • RobD said:

    Sigh....

    We Brits are far more likely to be able to travel than some of our foreign counterparts. White men such as Benedict Allen should cease their meaningless, problematic “explorations” and focus instead on the ways they can counter the privileges they inhabit, at home and abroad.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/17/benedict-allen-explorer-racist-british-colonial

    Peak Guardian?
    Seems to have less to do with race, and more to do with upper class public school overconfidence to me. Who thinks a remotely good idea to cross Papua New Guinea without a phone or GPS?!
    Anyone before the 21st century?
  • Rocket man is having a new toy built...

    Satellite images suggest North Korea pursuing 'aggressive schedule' to build ballistic missile submarine

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/17/satellite-images-suggest-north-korea-aggressive-work-ballistic/

    Over to you Donald...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    HYUFD said:

    It is clear you have more in common ideologically now with the Tories than the LDs and you even voted LD in June but I cannot force you to do anything the decision of where you place your allegiance still lies with you

    A brilliant typo there.

    I voted Lib Dem in June because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem contest, and I had heard that Jared O'Mara was a tool.

    (And I also did a vote swap to help a Tory gain a seat from Lab)

    Indeed that well known Lib Dem rag The Daily Mail encouraged Tory voters in Hallam to vote Lib Dem.
    Do you think Labour are likely to hold Sheffield Hallam at the next election?

  • Yep, as I said - the split was always going to happen.

    Not necessarily. It could well have been the case that the competition simply drove Sky to bid higher for every package to keep the exclusive rights.

    Well, let’s see if that happens once we’ve escaped the CJEU’s tyranny!

    The point still stands that the EU stuck its podgy fingers into something that has made it worse not better for the consumer.

    Depends on what you mean by consumer. As a consumer of Tottenham Hotspur the money that the TV stations have given to football clubs means the product I am watching is far better than it used to be. And if you support City or Chelsea or any other club backed by a billionaire, you are only doing so because of the wealth and profile the PL has as a result of the blanket TV coverage it gets.

    That argument has at best got bugger all to do with the EU meddling and at worst is negatively impacted because of them.

    Anyway, it is besides the main point which was being made, which is the EPL needs to get its act together going forward. These quaint ideas of 3pm blackouts are total nonsense with modern technology. Tinkering with the packages doesn't address any of this.

    We agree - the EU has nothing to do with the cost of watching football on the telly in the UK.

  • Isn't the housing shortage a lot due to economic imbalances? Surely that's the issue that needs attention, rather than carpeting what's left of South East England with mock tudor rabbit hutches?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 41,448

    Isn't the housing shortage a lot due to economic imbalances? Surely that's the issue that needs attention, rather than carpeting what's left of South East England with mock tudor rabbit hutches?

    Did someone say Northern Powerhouse? :D
  • AndyJS said:

    HYUFD said:

    It is clear you have more in common ideologically now with the Tories than the LDs and you even voted LD in June but I cannot force you to do anything the decision of where you place your allegiance still lies with you

    A brilliant typo there.

    I voted Lib Dem in June because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem contest, and I had heard that Jared O'Mara was a tool.

    (And I also did a vote swap to help a Tory gain a seat from Lab)

    Indeed that well known Lib Dem rag The Daily Mail encouraged Tory voters in Hallam to vote Lib Dem.
    Do you think Labour are likely to hold Sheffield Hallam at the next election?
    Unlikely. I think Jared O’Mara has poisoned the well for Labour and the Lib Dems are strong and active in Sheffield.

    They’ve already selected their candidate for the seat so that should help too.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 29,990

    Rocket man is having a new toy built...

    Satellite images suggest North Korea pursuing 'aggressive schedule' to build ballistic missile submarine

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/17/satellite-images-suggest-north-korea-aggressive-work-ballistic/

    Over to you Donald...
    Prediction: it will mysteriously fail its sea trials....
  • AndyJS said:

    HYUFD said:

    It is clear you have more in common ideologically now with the Tories than the LDs and you even voted LD in June but I cannot force you to do anything the decision of where you place your allegiance still lies with you

    A brilliant typo there.

    I voted Lib Dem in June because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem contest, and I had heard that Jared O'Mara was a tool.

    (And I also did a vote swap to help a Tory gain a seat from Lab)

    Indeed that well known Lib Dem rag The Daily Mail encouraged Tory voters in Hallam to vote Lib Dem.
    Do you think Labour are likely to hold Sheffield Hallam at the next election?
    Unlikely. I think Jared O’Mara has poisoned the well for Labour and the Lib Dems are strong and active in Sheffield.

    They’ve already selected their candidate for the seat so that should help too.
    Is 'Tree-gate' still a thing in Sheffield at the moment? That can't be helping the Labour cause in Sheffield, especially Hallam which is very leafy from memory.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 38,085
    edited November 2017


    Yep, as I said - the split was always going to happen.

    Not necessarily. It could well have been the case that the competition simply drove Sky to bid higher for every package to keep the exclusive rights.

    Well, let’s see if that happens once we’ve escaped the CJEU’s tyranny!

    The point still stands that the EU stuck its podgy fingers into something that has made it worse not better for the consumer.

    Depends on what you mean by consumer. As a consumer of Tottenham Hotspur the money that the TV stations have given to football clubs means the product I am watching is far better than it used to be. And if you support City or Chelsea or any other club backed by a billionaire, you are only doing so because of the wealth and profile the PL has as a result of the blanket TV coverage it gets.

    That argument has at best got bugger all to do with the EU meddling and at worst is negatively impacted because of them.

    Anyway, it is besides the main point which was being made, which is the EPL needs to get its act together going forward. These quaint ideas of 3pm blackouts are total nonsense with modern technology. Tinkering with the packages doesn't address any of this.

    We agree - the EU has nothing to do with the cost of watching football on the telly in the UK.

    Not at all. EU meddling ensures come what may, one has to subscribe to at least 2 different providers to watch all the EPL. Even if BT (before that Setanta Sport) trying to get into the market place forced Sky to increase their bid for a lesser package, they have the economies of scale on the production side and superior advertising revenues on each game.

    It was totally needless meddling by the EU into something that wasn't broken or anti-competitive, which has negatively affected the viewing public at home.

    It is the equivalent of being told that I like shopping at Tesco, but now if I want to continue to shop at Tesco, I also have to buy some items from the local Spar (which doesn't have to economies of scale of Tesco).

    Anyway, the future is now a total different beast as we move away this idea of requiring traditional style tv channels.
  • AndyJS said:

    HYUFD said:

    It is clear you have more in common ideologically now with the Tories than the LDs and you even voted LD in June but I cannot force you to do anything the decision of where you place your allegiance still lies with you

    A brilliant typo there.

    I voted Lib Dem in June because the seat was clearly a Lab v Lib Dem contest, and I had heard that Jared O'Mara was a tool.

    (And I also did a vote swap to help a Tory gain a seat from Lab)

    Indeed that well known Lib Dem rag The Daily Mail encouraged Tory voters in Hallam to vote Lib Dem.
    Do you think Labour are likely to hold Sheffield Hallam at the next election?
    Unlikely. I think Jared O’Mara has poisoned the well for Labour and the Lib Dems are strong and active in Sheffield.

    They’ve already selected their candidate for the seat so that should help too.
    Is 'Tree-gate' still a thing in Sheffield at the moment? That can't be helping the Labour cause in Sheffield, especially Hallam which is very leafy from memory.
    It is still an issue and it isn’t helping Labour.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Let's see who is laughing when he presents the EU with a cheque for no pounds, no pence....

    Jeremy Corbyn
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 27,841
    edited November 2017
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mrs Thatcher as PM stopped any more grammar school closures.

    Source?
    No grammar school as far as I am aware converted to a comprehensive in the 1980s, large numbers converted to comprehensives in the 1970s
    I'm afraid that I think you're incorrect. Certainly, there were very few that converted in the 1980s (although a large part of that is that there were very few left to convert). But it wasn't zero. I'm trying to find the data, but IIRC there were about 190 grammar schools in England in 1990 1980, and that had fallen to 168 by 1997.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,407
    edited November 2017
    TOPPING said:

    Sean_F said:

    TOPPING said:

    kjh said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    The answer is obvious, give Northern Ireland to the Republic.
    You've also mentioned this (more than once) with Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands too.

    Do you see the UK surrendering some of its territory as a just punishment for Brexiteers?
    I've been advocating giving away Northern Ireland for years, long before Brexit.

    Northern Ireland's problems has caused much grief to the rest of the UK, this ends this, and helps with making sure we get a good Brexit deal.

    WIN WIN.

    Plus it reverses a great mistake by the Papists.
    Further confirmation your natural home is not the Conservative and Unionist Party
    I don't see him being that lonely in the years to come.
    Given TSE is not a Corbynite socialist either but an Orange Book LD he may be able to find just enough of his colleagues to book a tax ride home on a good night yes
    Fuck's sake, my home is not the Lib Dems, I'm a radical free market one Nation Tory.

    You've done more for the Lib Dems than I ever have, I mean I've never lost a Tory seat to the Yellow peril.
    . :)
    Sensible Tories, not fucking idiots, have to deal with the fact that the Cons have retoxified themselves and allowed themselves to be taken over by the forces of bonkersness.

    We are having to hold out in the hope that we will get our party back at some point, whether it comes back to us voluntarily, or we have to reclaim it.
    "The forces of bonkersness" as you call them, are the vast majority of the people who vote Conservative in this country.
    Maybe, maybe not, don't you come over all "this is how everyone votes and why" also. We've enough of those on here as it is.

    I know plenty and I mean plenty of Cons who are horrified and disappointed at recent turn of events (was called a Nazi on the doorstep in June by a Cons voter).

    But then if you're right, I and others will have to do some serious soul-searching. I suspect it will be a case of weighing up the least worst option and currently, the Cons for all their ills are the least worst.
    By "forces of bonkersdom" I thought you meant Conservatives who are either happy or content to see the UK leave the EU.

    Anybody who would call you a "Nazi" is a nut.

  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 27,841
    edited November 2017
    @HYUFD

    Found it! http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01398/SN01398.pdf

    Grammar school numbers declined through the first eight years of Mrs Thatcher's premiership, and only flattened out after 1987.

    Edit to add:
    At the end of 1979, there were 268 grammar schools in England and Wales

    When she stepped down, in 1990, it was just 150.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 5,964


    Let's see who is laughing when he presents the EU with a cheque for no pounds, no pence....

    So, you think we should walk away without paying a penny ?

    Okay...

  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,334
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    There was unquestionably a period of convergence between the leaderships of the Conservative Party and Liberal Democrats in the post-Blair era. The Orange Bookers and "Liberal Conservatives" found much on which they could agree - I recall a number of Conservatives openly praising the ideas of David Laws and Steve Webb and some of them became Coalition policy.

    The degree to which that sense of convergence permeated the memberships of the two parties is more debatable - for some LDs the very thought of working with the Conservatives in any form was anathema while I know some Conservatives deeply resented the perceived influence of the LDs in decision making within the Coalition.

    The fact was the country needed political stability and both sides knew it - was that stability provided ? To an extent, yes, but the philosophical convergence did not long survive the realities of power. It was difficult for MPs on both sides to walk through the lobby supporting measures with which they and their Party passionately disagreed but which were part of the Coalition framework.

    Whether there could or should have been a pact for 2015 with Conservatives not opposing sitting LD MPs and vice versa is one for others to consider. The annihilation of the LDs undid forty five years of history and effectively destroyed the Party I joined in 1980.

    There's a new LD Party now - 3/4 of the membership joined after 2015 - with a view on the EU and A50 I find very hard to support. I find myself being pulled in both directions - on the one hand I find a lot of what McDonnell says on the economy interesting and for me the current model of capitalism is failing. I'm also hugely opposed to the Single Market and will not mourn its passing. That being said, I don't want the UK to become emotionally and culturally estranged from Europe - we may not be European but we are part of Europe.

    We are back to where we were in the mid 50s after Suez - trying to understand and carve out a place in the modern world. MacMillan chose Europe and sent Heath to get us into the embryonic Common Market. That started us on a journey which lasted nearly 60 years and ended on 23/6/16. We have yet to fully decide where we go next.

    When the coalition was originally formed I expected Cameron and Osborne to offer an electoral pact to the Lib Dems and try to turn them into a latter-day version of the national Liberals, thereby marginalising both Labour and the Tory ultras. I think Clegg would have been amenable but probably a few Lib Dems would have broken away. Bearing in mind Miliband's unpopularity such a coalition could have created a stable government that stayed in power for many years. But Cameron, not for the first or last time, decided to appease the ultras instead and he campaigned vigorously against AV and thus ruined any chance he might have had of creating a more permanent coalition with the Lib Dems.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 27,841
    rcs1000 said:

    @HYUFD

    Found it! http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01398/SN01398.pdf

    Grammar school numbers declined through the first eight years of Mrs Thatcher's premiership, and only flattened out after 1987.

    Edit to add:
    At the end of 1979, there were 268 grammar schools in England and Wales

    When she stepped down, in 1990, it was just 150.

    Amusingly, the year Mrs Thatcher stepped down marked the nadir for grammar schools in E&W, with the number markedly in the decade.
  • rcs1000 said:

    @HYUFD

    Found it! http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01398/SN01398.pdf

    Grammar school numbers declined through the first eight years of Mrs Thatcher's premiership, and only flattened out after 1987.

    Edit to add:
    At the end of 1979, there were 268 grammar schools in England and Wales

    When she stepped down, in 1990, it was just 150.

    Thank you.

    Proof once again Mrs Thatcher was right on grammar schools.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 38,085
    edited November 2017
    Everything you know about acid attacks is wrong

    There is a common understanding of acid attacks in the UK that goes something like this: the attacker is male; the victim female. Both are South Asian, and the violence has something to do with the man’s so-called ‘honour'.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/item/5d38c003-c54a-4513-a369-f9eae0d52f91

    It seems everything I was supposed to be thinking about acid attack was wrong, but what I actually thought about acid attack was right...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 41,448


    When the coalition was originally formed I expected Cameron and Osborne to offer an electoral pact to the Lib Dems and try to turn them into a latter-day version of the national Liberals, thereby marginalising both Labour and the Tory ultras. I think Clegg would have been amenable but probably a few Lib Dems would have broken away. Bearing in mind Miliband's unpopularity such a coalition could have created a stable government that stayed in power for many years. But Cameron, not for the first or last time, decided to appease the ultras instead and he campaigned vigorously against AV and thus ruined any chance he might have had of creating a more permanent coalition with the Lib Dems.

    So he stuck to his principles of supporting FPTP rather than choosing an option that would have made staying in power easier? Bravo to him!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,407
    One small piece of good news is that the University of Kent has revoked Phil Shiner's honorary doctorate.
  • Sean_F said:

    One small piece of good news is that the University of Kent has revoked Phil Shiner's honorary doctorate.

    What took them so long?
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    Scott_P said:

    Hard Brexit coming your way in 5... 4... 3...

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 28,407

    Scott_P said:

    Hard Brexit coming your way in 5... 4... 3...

    Which is the thing that Ireland claims not to want.
  • stodge said:



    The degree to which that sense of convergence permeated the memberships of the two parties is more debatable - for some LDs the very thought of working with the Conservatives in any form was anathema while I know some Conservatives deeply resented the perceived influence of the LDs in decision making within the Coalition.

    The fact was the country needed political stability and both sides knew it - was that stability provided ? To an extent, yes, but the philosophical convergence did not long survive the realities of power. It was difficult for MPs on both sides to walk through the lobby supporting measures with which they and their Party passionately disagreed but which were part of the Coalition framework.

    Whether there could or should have been a pact for 2015 with Conservatives not opposing sitting LD MPs and vice versa is one for others to consider. The annihilation of the LDs undid forty five years of history and effectively destroyed the Party I joined in 1980.

    There's a new LD Party now - 3/4 of the membership joined after 2015 - with a view on the EU and A50 I find very hard to support. I find myself being pulled in both directions - on the one hand I find a lot of what McDonnell says on the economy interesting and for me the current model of capitalism is failing. I'm also hugely opposed to the Single Market and will not mourn its passing. That being said, I don't want the UK to become emotionally and culturally estranged from Europe - we may not be European but we are part of Europe.

    We are back to where we were in the mid 50s after Suez - trying to understand and carve out a place in the modern world. MacMillan chose Europe and sent Heath to get us into the embryonic Common Market. That started us on a journey which lasted nearly 60 years and ended on 23/6/16. We have yet to fully decide where we go next.

    When the coalition was originally formed I expected Cameron and Osborne to offer an electoral pact to the Lib Dems and try to turn them into a latter-day version of the national Liberals, thereby marginalising both Labour and the Tory ultras. I think Clegg would have been amenable but probably a few Lib Dems would have broken away. Bearing in mind Miliband's unpopularity such a coalition could have created a stable government that stayed in power for many years. But Cameron, not for the first or last time, decided to appease the ultras instead and he campaigned vigorously against AV and thus ruined any chance he might have had of creating a more permanent coalition with the Lib Dems.
    There's an element of truth there, although the irony was that AV would have made precious little difference either way. The Lib Dems should never have asked for it and should have bid for PR in a reformed Lords instead (which would have been delivered).
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    Everything you know about acid attacks is wrong

    There is a common understanding of acid attacks in the UK that goes something like this: the attacker is male; the victim female. Both are South Asian, and the violence has something to do with the man’s so-called ‘honour'.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/item/5d38c003-c54a-4513-a369-f9eae0d52f91

    It seems everything I was supposed to be thinking about acid attack was wrong, but what I actually thought about acid attack was right...

    One thing that I think is true is that most of the attacks happen in the eastern and north-eastern areas of London.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    rcs1000 said:

    @HYUFD

    Found it! http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01398/SN01398.pdf

    Grammar school numbers declined through the first eight years of Mrs Thatcher's premiership, and only flattened out after 1987.

    Edit to add:
    At the end of 1979, there were 268 grammar schools in England and Wales

    When she stepped down, in 1990, it was just 150.

    In the 80s and early 90s I think it was generally regarded as the sign of having a slightly thick child to send them to private school. Everyone else was assumed to be able to cope with a comprehensive school.
  • stodge said:


    Let's see who is laughing when he presents the EU with a cheque for no pounds, no pence....

    So, you think we should walk away without paying a penny ?

    Okay...

    There is a difference between what should happen and what might happen. No Deal presents risks to the EU too. They might not be of the same scale as those they pose to the UK (or Ireland) but they're not trivial either.
  • JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,219
    .
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    Hard Brexit coming your way in 5... 4... 3...

    Which is the thing that Ireland claims not to want.
    It's a win-win-win for Ireland. Even a hard Brexit has long term benefits for them.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 29,990
    stodge said:


    Let's see who is laughing when he presents the EU with a cheque for no pounds, no pence....

    So, you think we should walk away without paying a penny ?

    Okay...

    I think it should be on the table. Along with a modest cash offer.

    Let the EU decide which option they want. I'd give them 48 hours to tell us. If it is silence, then Hard, cashless Brexit it is.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 32,335
    edited November 2017

    stodge said:


    Let's see who is laughing when he presents the EU with a cheque for no pounds, no pence....

    So, you think we should walk away without paying a penny ?

    Okay...

    I think it should be on the table. Along with a modest cash offer.

    Let the EU decide which option they want. I'd give them 48 hours to tell us. If it is silence, then Hard, cashless Brexit it is.

    "Do as we want or we will inflict sustained long term economic hardship on the UK and put our party out of power for a generation."

    Yep, that should do it.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 41,448

    stodge said:


    Let's see who is laughing when he presents the EU with a cheque for no pounds, no pence....

    So, you think we should walk away without paying a penny ?

    Okay...

    I think it should be on the table. Along with a modest cash offer.

    Let the EU decide which option they want. I'd give them 48 hours to tell us. If it is silence, then Hard, cashless Brexit it is.

    "Do as we want or we will inflict sustained long term economic hardship on the UK and put our party out of power for a generation."

    Yep, that should do it.

    I don't think it's that one-sided.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548

    I wanted Jeremy Corbyn to have as few MPs as possible, the fewer he had, the greater the chance of him going as Labour leader.

    But you were the original PBToryForCorbyn..

    I formally propose dissolving the Tories for Burnham Group and now propose forming the Tories for Corbyn Group

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/696967/#Comment_696967
  • WinstanleyWinstanley Posts: 415
    edited November 2017
    AndyJS said:

    rcs1000 said:

    @HYUFD

    Found it! http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01398/SN01398.pdf

    Grammar school numbers declined through the first eight years of Mrs Thatcher's premiership, and only flattened out after 1987.

    Edit to add:
    At the end of 1979, there were 268 grammar schools in England and Wales

    When she stepped down, in 1990, it was just 150.

    In the 80s and early 90s I think it was generally regarded as the sign of having a slightly thick child to send them to private school. Everyone else was assumed to be able to cope with a comprehensive school.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/the-class-industry-private-schools-flourished-in-the-1980s-but-the-recession-and-cutbacks-in-the-1462785.html

    The more we push sink or swim meritocracy and 'social mobility', the more the middle classes turn to institutions that shield their kids from it. Let's have more downward social mobility or stop pretending imo.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 21,119

    stodge said:


    Let's see who is laughing when he presents the EU with a cheque for no pounds, no pence....

    So, you think we should walk away without paying a penny ?

    Okay...

    I think it should be on the table. Along with a modest cash offer.

    Let the EU decide which option they want. I'd give them 48 hours to tell us. If it is silence, then Hard, cashless Brexit it is.

    "Do as we want or we will inflict sustained long term economic hardship on the UK and put our party out of power for a generation."

    Yep, that should do it.

    @Sean_F was asking earlier about the Bonkersness element of the Cons party. I think this is exemplifies it. I don't mind people who want to leave for their various reasons; obvs I think they are deeply misguided but that's life.

    The thing I object to is the move from wanting to leave to wanting to slam their hands down on the nuclear button for all the world as if we are in some computer game or simulated scenario.

    People laugh at Trump, but these mad Brexiters are almost worse in playing with the livelihoods of the British population so callously to satisfy their ner ner ner tendencies.
  • I wanted Jeremy Corbyn to have as few MPs as possible, the fewer he had, the greater the chance of him going as Labour leader.

    But you were the original PBToryForCorbyn..

    I formally propose dissolving the Tories for Burnham Group and now propose forming the Tories for Corbyn Group

    http://politicalbetting.vanillaforums.com/discussion/comment/696967/#Comment_696967
    That was when I thought he was a joke.

    I never signed up as a £3 er nor did I vote for him.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2017
    Good news for Tories. You can turn back the clock but going forward is impossible.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5090311/Traveling-time-possible-physicist-says.html
  • RobDRobD Posts: 41,448
    AndyJS said:

    Good news for Tories. You can turn back the clock but going forward is impossible.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-5090311/Traveling-time-possible-physicist-says.html

    Looks like Cher found a way... :D
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    TOPPING said:

    stodge said:


    Let's see who is laughing when he presents the EU with a cheque for no pounds, no pence....

    So, you think we should walk away without paying a penny ?

    Okay...

    I think it should be on the table. Along with a modest cash offer.

    Let the EU decide which option they want. I'd give them 48 hours to tell us. If it is silence, then Hard, cashless Brexit it is.

    "Do as we want or we will inflict sustained long term economic hardship on the UK and put our party out of power for a generation."

    Yep, that should do it.

    @Sean_F was asking earlier about the Bonkersness element of the Cons party. I think this is exemplifies it. I don't mind people who want to leave for their various reasons; obvs I think they are deeply misguided but that's life.

    The thing I object to is the move from wanting to leave to wanting to slam their hands down on the nuclear button for all the world as if we are in some computer game or simulated scenario.

    People laugh at Trump, but these mad Brexiters are almost worse in playing with the livelihoods of the British population so callously to satisfy their ner ner ner tendencies.

    Whereas the Remones would prefer us to be a vassal state and never be allowed our independence.

  • Good afternoon, everyone.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 21,119

    TOPPING said:

    stodge said:


    Let's see who is laughing when he presents the EU with a cheque for no pounds, no pence....

    So, you think we should walk away without paying a penny ?

    Okay...

    I think it should be on the table. Along with a modest cash offer.

    Let the EU decide which option they want. I'd give them 48 hours to tell us. If it is silence, then Hard, cashless Brexit it is.

    "Do as we want or we will inflict sustained long term economic hardship on the UK and put our party out of power for a generation."

    Yep, that should do it.

    @Sean_F was asking earlier about the Bonkersness element of the Cons party. I think this is exemplifies it. I don't mind people who want to leave for their various reasons; obvs I think they are deeply misguided but that's life.

    The thing I object to is the move from wanting to leave to wanting to slam their hands down on the nuclear button for all the world as if we are in some computer game or simulated scenario.

    People laugh at Trump, but these mad Brexiters are almost worse in playing with the livelihoods of the British population so callously to satisfy their ner ner ner tendencies.

    Whereas the Remones would prefer us to be a vassal state and never be allowed our independence.

    QED
  • Forget Brexit, big news of today...

    Unilad Facebook account blocked

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-42029399

    If that doesn't get students on the street, nothing will.
  • JonathanD said:

    .

    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    Hard Brexit coming your way in 5... 4... 3...

    Which is the thing that Ireland claims not to want.
    It's a win-win-win for Ireland. Even a hard Brexit has long term benefits for them.
    They might be quite longterm, given the prediction of tipping NI back into violence and all their physical goods exports and imports using the UK land bridge (currently most of them) to two sets of customs checks.....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 41,448

    Forget Brexit, big news of today...

    Unilad Facebook account blocked

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-42029399

    If that doesn't get students on the street, nothing will.

    All based on one complainant.
  • TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    Hard Brexit coming your way in 5... 4... 3...

    Which is the thing that Ireland claims not to want.
    The thing is, it's based on an assumption that doesn't hold true across the rest of the world.

    We have global bodies who set all kinds of standards for goods and products, and even services.
    UNECE has a role, CODEX in relations to phystosanitary and food standards including animal welfare, Basel Committee on Banking Supervision, ISO, and the list goes on.

    Many of the regulations that Ireland are talking about are EU regs implementing international standards, which in normal circumstances the EU accepts verification that these standards are followed in third countries as the hurdle for trade agreement.
  • Its not just me then...

    Okay, look. I’m not the first person to say this, and I certainly won’t be the last. But iOS 11 is bad. The new operating system has turned my phone into a bug-infested carcass of its former self, and the frustration of trying to use it sometimes makes me want to die, too.

    https://gizmodo.com/ios-11-is-killing-me-1820480836
  • MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584

    new thread

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 23,666

    Its not just me then...

    Okay, look. I’m not the first person to say this, and I certainly won’t be the last. But iOS 11 is bad. The new operating system has turned my phone into a bug-infested carcass of its former self, and the frustration of trying to use it sometimes makes me want to die, too.

    https://gizmodo.com/ios-11-is-killing-me-1820480836

    I’m on Apple’s beta program, and they’ve been doing about three updates a week for the past month trying to get all the bugs out. Some got worse before they got better, but it does look as if the latest one (11.2 public beta 3) is close to what should have gone out in September. An unusual misstep for Apple.
This discussion has been closed.