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System · January 2018

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » PB’s lunchtime cartoon for the day of the Macron visit

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Theuniondivvie · January 2018

Hmm..

DavidL · January 2018

Political Cartoon (Matt) bill. You know we want it.

From the FT article on the previous page:

"In August 2016, the bank produced updated forecasts. Exports in 2017 would be down 0.5 per cent, despite the strong boost they had received from the devaluation of sterling. Looking at the year-on-year figures for the third quarter, in practice they are up 8.3 per cent. Over the same period business investment in 2017 would be down 2 per cent. Yet, in the most recent Office for National Statistics figures, it is up 1.7 per cent. Housing investment would be down 4.75 per cent. Looking at the most recent data (end September), it is actually up 5 per cent year-on-year. Employment growth would be zero. In reality, it is up 1 per cent from already very high levels."

What is even more worrying is that despite all that their growth forecast for the year was not that far off!

Essexit · January 2018

To be fair, France IS a shithole country.

Theuniondivvie · January 2018

Essexit said:
To be fair, France IS a shithole country.

It's just that kind of measured, piercing insight that I come to PB for.

DecrepitJohnL · January 2018

DavidL said:
Political Cartoon (Matt) bill. You know we want it.

From the FT article on the previous page:

"In August 2016, the bank produced updated forecasts. Exports in 2017 would be down 0.5 per cent, despite the strong boost they had received from the devaluation of sterling. Looking at the year-on-year figures for the third quarter, in practice they are up 8.3 per cent. Over the same period business investment in 2017 would be down 2 per cent. Yet, in the most recent Office for National Statistics figures, it is up 1.7 per cent. Housing investment would be down 4.75 per cent. Looking at the most recent data (end September), it is actually up 5 per cent year-on-year. Employment growth would be zero. In reality, it is up 1 per cent from already very high levels."

What is even more worrying is that despite all that their growth forecast for the year was not that far off!

That's before the inevitable ONS revisions, of course.

DavidL · January 2018

DecrepitJohnL said:

DavidL said:
Political Cartoon (Matt) bill. You know we want it.

From the FT article on the previous page:

"In August 2016, the bank produced updated forecasts. Exports in 2017 would be down 0.5 per cent, despite the strong boost they had received from the devaluation of sterling. Looking at the year-on-year figures for the third quarter, in practice they are up 8.3 per cent. Over the same period business investment in 2017 would be down 2 per cent. Yet, in the most recent Office for National Statistics figures, it is up 1.7 per cent. Housing investment would be down 4.75 per cent. Looking at the most recent data (end September), it is actually up 5 per cent year-on-year. Employment growth would be zero. In reality, it is up 1 per cent from already very high levels."

What is even more worrying is that despite all that their growth forecast for the year was not that far off!
That's before the inevitable ONS revisions, of course.

Well indeed. Investment will certainly increase because it is almost always under recorded to start with. Balance of payments has been a bit more variable of late, not least because of the GDP/GNP issue.

Theuniondivvie · January 2018

I believe Arlene has been a teeny bit more emollient lately, perhaps this is the reason.

https://twitter.com/DavidYoungPA/status/953970026146598912

TheScreamingEagles · January 2018

Did we lose a war?

Why else do we need to pay a tribute to France to sort out the mess in Calais?

We should retake Calais, it does after all belong to England/The UK.

Pulpstar · January 2018

Theuniondivvie said:
I believe Arlene has been a teeny bit more emollient lately, perhaps this is the reason.

https://twitter.com/DavidYoungPA/status/953970026146598912

Best of luck with that Karen.

TOPPING · January 2018

DavidL said:
Political Cartoon (Matt) bill. You know we want it.

From the FT article on the previous page:

"In August 2016, the bank produced updated forecasts. Exports in 2017 would be down 0.5 per cent, despite the strong boost they had received from the devaluation of sterling. Looking at the year-on-year figures for the third quarter, in practice they are up 8.3 per cent. Over the same period business investment in 2017 would be down 2 per cent. Yet, in the most recent Office for National Statistics figures, it is up 1.7 per cent. Housing investment would be down 4.75 per cent. Looking at the most recent data (end September), it is actually up 5 per cent year-on-year. Employment growth would be zero. In reality, it is up 1 per cent from already very high levels."

What is even more worrying is that despite all that their growth forecast for the year was not that far off!

Consumers waking up and smelling the builders'?

Pulpstar · January 2018

Does anyone have a link to the DUP-Tory supply/confidence agreement ?
I'd like to check the paragraph where it says the readies will be available contingent upon Stormont being in session.

HYUFD · January 2018

Essexit said:
To be fair, France IS a shithole country.

Macron is effectively the leader of the West at the moment

HYUFD · January 2018

Theuniondivvie said:
I believe Arlene has been a teeny bit more emollient lately, perhaps this is the reason.

https://twitter.com/DavidYoungPA/status/953970026146598912

Well it cannot be released unless NI has a government to spend it

Sandpit · January 2018

Pulpstar said:
Does anyone have a link to the DUP-Tory supply/confidence agreement ?
I'd like to check the paragraph where it says the readies will be available contingent upon Stormont being in session.

https://www.scribd.com/document/352261647/Confidence-and-Supply-Agreement-Between-the-Conservative-Party-and-the-DUP

DavidL · January 2018

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:
Political Cartoon (Matt) bill. You know we want it.

From the FT article on the previous page:

"In August 2016, the bank produced updated forecasts. Exports in 2017 would be down 0.5 per cent, despite the strong boost they had received from the devaluation of sterling. Looking at the year-on-year figures for the third quarter, in practice they are up 8.3 per cent. Over the same period business investment in 2017 would be down 2 per cent. Yet, in the most recent Office for National Statistics figures, it is up 1.7 per cent. Housing investment would be down 4.75 per cent. Looking at the most recent data (end September), it is actually up 5 per cent year-on-year. Employment growth would be zero. In reality, it is up 1 per cent from already very high levels."

What is even more worrying is that despite all that their growth forecast for the year was not that far off!
Consumers waking up and smelling the builders'?

That doesn't sound especially pleasant but I have little doubt that we will eventually discover that construction has been doing way better than reported, as usual.

TheScreamingEagles · January 2018

Pulpstar said:
Does anyone have a link to the DUP-Tory supply/confidence agreement ?
I'd like to check the paragraph where it says the readies will be available contingent upon Stormont being in session.

Enjoy

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/conservative-and-dup-agreement-and-uk-government-financial-support-for-northern-ireland

Foxy · January 2018

DavidL said:
Political Cartoon (Matt) bill. You know we want it.

From the FT article on the previous page:

"In August 2016, the bank produced updated forecasts. Exports in 2017 would be down 0.5 per cent, despite the strong boost they had received from the devaluation of sterling. Looking at the year-on-year figures for the third quarter, in practice they are up 8.3 per cent. Over the same period business investment in 2017 would be down 2 per cent. Yet, in the most recent Office for National Statistics figures, it is up 1.7 per cent. Housing investment would be down 4.75 per cent. Looking at the most recent data (end September), it is actually up 5 per cent year-on-year. Employment growth would be zero. In reality, it is up 1 per cent from already very high levels."

What is even more worrying is that despite all that their growth forecast for the year was not that far off!

l Surely that is just evidence of masterly activity by the Central bank to turn around the economy?

Or perhaps just that the world economy is finally improving, and that a rising tide floats all boats.

Pulpstar · January 2018

Sandpit said:

Pulpstar said:
Does anyone have a link to the DUP-Tory supply/confidence agreement ?
I'd like to check the paragraph where it says the readies will be available contingent upon Stormont being in session.
https://www.scribd.com/document/352261647/Confidence-and-Supply-Agreement-Between-the-Conservative-Party-and-the-DUP

'desire', 'commitment', 'recognises the need' - it isn't 'obliged', 'must', 'shall'

Big_G_NorthWales · January 2018

DavidL said:

DecrepitJohnL said:

DavidL said:
Political Cartoon (Matt) bill. You know we want it.

From the FT article on the previous page:

"In August 2016, the bank produced updated forecasts. Exports in 2017 would be down 0.5 per cent, despite the strong boost they had received from the devaluation of sterling. Looking at the year-on-year figures for the third quarter, in practice they are up 8.3 per cent. Over the same period business investment in 2017 would be down 2 per cent. Yet, in the most recent Office for National Statistics figures, it is up 1.7 per cent. Housing investment would be down 4.75 per cent. Looking at the most recent data (end September), it is actually up 5 per cent year-on-year. Employment growth would be zero. In reality, it is up 1 per cent from already very high levels."

What is even more worrying is that despite all that their growth forecast for the year was not that far off!
That's before the inevitable ONS revisions, of course.
Well indeed. Investment will certainly increase because it is almost always under recorded to start with. Balance of payments has been a bit more variable of late, not least because of the GDP/GNP issue.

See dollar rate is up at 1.39 today

DavidL · January 2018

Foxy said:

DavidL said:
Political Cartoon (Matt) bill. You know we want it.

From the FT article on the previous page:

"In August 2016, the bank produced updated forecasts. Exports in 2017 would be down 0.5 per cent, despite the strong boost they had received from the devaluation of sterling. Looking at the year-on-year figures for the third quarter, in practice they are up 8.3 per cent. Over the same period business investment in 2017 would be down 2 per cent. Yet, in the most recent Office for National Statistics figures, it is up 1.7 per cent. Housing investment would be down 4.75 per cent. Looking at the most recent data (end September), it is actually up 5 per cent year-on-year. Employment growth would be zero. In reality, it is up 1 per cent from already very high levels."

What is even more worrying is that despite all that their growth forecast for the year was not that far off!
l Surely that is just evidence of masterly activity by the Central bank to turn around the economy?

Or perhaps just that the world economy is finally improving, and that a rising tide floats all boats.

I did wonder if the author was seriously suggesting that we should have been tightening monetary and fiscal policy even more this year. I think that would be getting carried away a bit. Growth in the US and the EU have undoubtedly helped although the strengthening of sterling against the dollar has been fairly steady and something of a headwind.

As I say it just seems strange how little this good news is showing in the growth rate.

Sandpit · January 2018

Pulpstar said:

Sandpit said:

Pulpstar said:
Does anyone have a link to the DUP-Tory supply/confidence agreement ?
I'd like to check the paragraph where it says the readies will be available contingent upon Stormont being in session.
https://www.scribd.com/document/352261647/Confidence-and-Supply-Agreement-Between-the-Conservative-Party-and-the-DUP
'desire', 'commitment', 'recognises the need' - it isn't 'obliged', 'must', 'shall'

Yes it’s very woolly.
Edit: This policy paper contains slightly more positive language
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/conservative-and-dup-agreement-and-uk-government-financial-support-for-northern-ireland/uk-government-financial-support-for-northern-ireland
Key sentence from the first paragraph:
Following discussions between them, and in order to support their shared objectives of strengthening the economy, the UK government is prepared to make available additional financial support to the power-sharing Executive

TOPPING · January 2018

DavidL said:

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:
Political Cartoon (Matt) bill. You know we want it.

From the FT article on the previous page:

"In August 2016, the bank produced updated forecasts. Exports in 2017 would be down 0.5 per cent, despite the strong boost they had received from the devaluation of sterling. Looking at the year-on-year figures for the third quarter, in practice they are up 8.3 per cent. Over the same period business investment in 2017 would be down 2 per cent. Yet, in the most recent Office for National Statistics figures, it is up 1.7 per cent. Housing investment would be down 4.75 per cent. Looking at the most recent data (end September), it is actually up 5 per cent year-on-year. Employment growth would be zero. In reality, it is up 1 per cent from already very high levels."

What is even more worrying is that despite all that their growth forecast for the year was not that far off!
Consumers waking up and smelling the builders'?
That doesn't sound especially pleasant but I have little doubt that we will eventually discover that construction has been doing way better than reported, as usual.

independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-consumer-spending-latest-2017-worst-year-2012-visa-data-brexit-inflation-pound-sterling-a8099266.html

SandyRentool · January 2018

Short-sleeve shirt and a tie. OK for airline pilots, never a good look for anyone else.

Tissue_Price · January 2018

Pulpstar said:
Does anyone have a link to the DUP-Tory supply/confidence agreement ?
I'd like to check the paragraph where it says the readies will be available contingent upon Stormont being in session.

"Following discussions between them, and in order to support their shared objectives of strengthening the economy, the UK government is prepared to make available additional financial support to the power-sharing Executive."

[my emphasis!]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/conservative-and-dup-agreement-and-uk-government-financial-support-for-northern-ireland/uk-government-financial-support-for-northern-ireland

Nigelb · January 2018

DavidL said:

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:
Political Cartoon (Matt) bill. You know we want it.

From the FT article on the previous page:

"In August 2016, the bank produced updated forecasts. Exports in 2017 would be down 0.5 per cent, despite the strong boost they had received from the devaluation of sterling. Looking at the year-on-year figures for the third quarter, in practice they are up 8.3 per cent. Over the same period business investment in 2017 would be down 2 per cent. Yet, in the most recent Office for National Statistics figures, it is up 1.7 per cent. Housing investment would be down 4.75 per cent. Looking at the most recent data (end September), it is actually up 5 per cent year-on-year. Employment growth would be zero. In reality, it is up 1 per cent from already very high levels."

What is even more worrying is that despite all that their growth forecast for the year was not that far off!
Consumers waking up and smelling the builders'?
That doesn't sound especially pleasant but I have little doubt that we will eventually discover that construction has been doing way better than reported, as usual.

I think construction has actually been doing very badly over the last year - with the exception of housing:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/businessindustryandtrade/constructionindustry/bulletins/constructionoutputingreatbritain/november2017

DavidL · January 2018

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:
Political Cartoon (Matt) bill. You know we want it.

From the FT article on the previous page:

"In August 2016, the bank produced updated forecasts. Exports in 2017 would be down 0.5 per cent, despite the strong boost they had received from the devaluation of sterling. Looking at the year-on-year figures for the third quarter, in practice they are up 8.3 per cent. Over the same period business investment in 2017 would be down 2 per cent. Yet, in the most recent Office for National Statistics figures, it is up 1.7 per cent. Housing investment would be down 4.75 per cent. Looking at the most recent data (end September), it is actually up 5 per cent year-on-year. Employment growth would be zero. In reality, it is up 1 per cent from already very high levels."

What is even more worrying is that despite all that their growth forecast for the year was not that far off!
Consumers waking up and smelling the builders'?
That doesn't sound especially pleasant but I have little doubt that we will eventually discover that construction has been doing way better than reported, as usual.
independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-consumer-spending-latest-2017-worst-year-2012-visa-data-brexit-inflation-pound-sterling-a8099266.html

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/consumer-spending

All time high, apparently. But the rate of increase has moderated which is a good thing.

Foxy · January 2018

DavidL said:

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:
Political Cartoon (Matt) bill. You know we want it.

From the FT article on the previous page:

"In August 2016, the bank produced updated forecasts. Exports in 2017 would be down 0.5 per cent, despite the strong boost they had received from the devaluation of sterling. Looking at the year-on-year figures for the third quarter, in practice they are up 8.3 per cent. Over the same period business investment in 2017 would be down 2 per cent. Yet, in the most recent Office for National Statistics figures, it is up 1.7 per cent. Housing investment would be down 4.75 per cent. Looking at the most recent data (end September), it is actually up 5 per cent year-on-year. Employment growth would be zero. In reality, it is up 1 per cent from already very high levels."

What is even more worrying is that despite all that their growth forecast for the year was not that far off!
Consumers waking up and smelling the builders'?
That doesn't sound especially pleasant but I have little doubt that we will eventually discover that construction has been doing way better than reported, as usual.
independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-consumer-spending-latest-2017-worst-year-2012-visa-data-brexit-inflation-pound-sterling-a8099266.html
https://tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/consumer-spending

All time high, apparently. But the rate of increase has moderated which is a good thing.

Surely needs to be inflation adjusted to be meaningful?

Foxy · January 2018

SandyRentool said:
Short-sleeve shirt and a tie. OK for airline pilots, never a good look for anyone else.

And my profession: bare below the elbow...

Ishmael_Z · January 2018

For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.

Mortimer · January 2018

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:
Political Cartoon (Matt) bill. You know we want it.

From the FT article on the previous page:

"In August 2016, the bank produced updated forecasts. Exports in 2017 would be down 0.5 per cent, despite the strong boost they had received from the devaluation of sterling. Looking at the year-on-year figures for the third quarter, in practice they are up 8.3 per cent. Over the same period business investment in 2017 would be down 2 per cent. Yet, in the most recent Office for National Statistics figures, it is up 1.7 per cent. Housing investment would be down 4.75 per cent. Looking at the most recent data (end September), it is actually up 5 per cent year-on-year. Employment growth would be zero. In reality, it is up 1 per cent from already very high levels."

What is even more worrying is that despite all that their growth forecast for the year was not that far off!
Consumers waking up and smelling the builders'?
That doesn't sound especially pleasant but I have little doubt that we will eventually discover that construction has been doing way better than reported, as usual.
independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-consumer-spending-latest-2017-worst-year-2012-visa-data-brexit-inflation-pound-sterling-a8099266.html

Rebalancing from a consumer led economy is a good thing, no?

TOPPING · January 2018

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.

They had some tapestry expert on the radio last night being asked about moving it.

"How will they move/lift/transport it?"
"No idea!"

Experts, eh.

AndyJS · January 2018

Wolf captured.

https://news.sky.com/story/wolf-captured-after-escaping-from-berkshire-wildlife-sanctuary-11212309

Ishmael_Z · January 2018

TOPPING said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Some tapestry expert on the radio last night being asked about moving it.

"How will they move/lift/transport it?"
"No idea!"

Experts, eh.

it's a lovely horse, King Priam, and the sooner it is within the city walls the better.

Peter_the_Punter · January 2018

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.

Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French? They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?

Sandpit · January 2018

TOPPING said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
They had some tapestry expert on the radio last night being asked about moving it.

"How will they move/lift/transport it?"
"No idea!"

Experts, eh.

“Very carefully” should have been his answer!

Art movers are very good and meticulous at what they do.

Ishmael_Z · January 2018

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?

Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.

Sean_F · January 2018

DavidL said:
Political Cartoon (Matt) bill. You know we want it.

From the FT article on the previous page:

"In August 2016, the bank produced updated forecasts. Exports in 2017 would be down 0.5 per cent, despite the strong boost they had received from the devaluation of sterling. Looking at the year-on-year figures for the third quarter, in practice they are up 8.3 per cent. Over the same period business investment in 2017 would be down 2 per cent. Yet, in the most recent Office for National Statistics figures, it is up 1.7 per cent. Housing investment would be down 4.75 per cent. Looking at the most recent data (end September), it is actually up 5 per cent year-on-year. Employment growth would be zero. In reality, it is up 1 per cent from already very high levels."

What is even more worrying is that despite all that their growth forecast for the year was not that far off!

They probably expected consumer spending to be stronger. Fortunately, it wasn't.

Also, revisions to construction output will probably push up the growth figures for 2017. Construction PMI's have shown growth for all but one month this year, whereas the ONS has shown falling output. But, the reason for the apparent fall in output is that construction output was revised sharply upwards for the final two quarters of last year.

MarqueeMark · January 2018

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:

TOPPING said:

DavidL said:
Political Cartoon (Matt) bill. You know we want it.

From the FT article on the previous page:

"In August 2016, the bank produced updated forecasts. Exports in 2017 would be down 0.5 per cent, despite the strong boost they had received from the devaluation of sterling. Looking at the year-on-year figures for the third quarter, in practice they are up 8.3 per cent. Over the same period business investment in 2017 would be down 2 per cent. Yet, in the most recent Office for National Statistics figures, it is up 1.7 per cent. Housing investment would be down 4.75 per cent. Looking at the most recent data (end September), it is actually up 5 per cent year-on-year. Employment growth would be zero. In reality, it is up 1 per cent from already very high levels."

What is even more worrying is that despite all that their growth forecast for the year was not that far off!
Consumers waking up and smelling the builders'?
That doesn't sound especially pleasant but I have little doubt that we will eventually discover that construction has been doing way better than reported, as usual.
independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-consumer-spending-latest-2017-worst-year-2012-visa-data-brexit-inflation-pound-sterling-a8099266.html

Is the UK finally turning the corner on buying shit we don't need with money we don't have?

Nah, probably not quite yet.

Sean_F · January 2018

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.

Yes, they certainly saw themselves as French by 1066.

Peter_the_Punter · January 2018

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.

Yes, I had them down as emigrant Vikings too, but I take your point about the language.

williamglenn · January 2018

MarqueeMark said:
Is the UK finally turning the corner on buying shit we don't need with money we don't have?

Nah, probably not quite yet.

Brexit as consumerism? "Yeah the advert looks good - stick it on the credit card."

TheScreamingEagles · January 2018

Posted without comment

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/953993199873179655

MarqueeMark · January 2018

Very bold of the French to let us have the Bayeaux tapestry. I mean...

"Oh it's yours? And you want it back? Well, sunshine, when we get Calais....."

MarqueeMark · January 2018

TheScreamingEagles said:
Posted without comment

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/953993199873179655

Lord knows what's in the pizzas....

Foxy · January 2018

On the subject of the PM's Press Sec, hasn't the year flown by:

https://twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/953906539731013633

TheScreamingEagles · January 2018

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.

The Normans aren't French, leftover Vikings is more apt.

Their language was Norman French, think of it like American English, a language spoken by people who aren't English.

TheScreamingEagles · January 2018

MarqueeMark said:
Very bold of the French to let us have the Bayeaux tapestry. I mean...

"Oh it's yours? And you want it back? Well, sunshine, when we get Calais....."

Some of us want the French to honour the Treaty of Troyes.

Foxy · January 2018

TheScreamingEagles said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.
The Normans aren't French, leftover Vikings is more apt.

Their language was Norman French, think of it like American English, a language spoken by people who aren't English.

Surely, after a century in France the Normans would be French, even if of Viking stock?

After all if I suggested that those with less than a century of ancestral residence weren't British...

Sean_F · January 2018

TheScreamingEagles said:

MarqueeMark said:
Very bold of the French to let us have the Bayeaux tapestry. I mean...

"Oh it's yours? And you want it back? Well, sunshine, when we get Calais....."
Some of us want the French to honour the Treaty of Troyes.

If Henry V had lived another twenty years, and made good his claim to France, England would probably have become a backwater.

logical_song · January 2018

Essexit said:
To be fair, France IS a shithole country.

That's you being fair, is it?

Foxy · January 2018

Sean_F said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MarqueeMark said:
Very bold of the French to let us have the Bayeaux tapestry. I mean...

"Oh it's yours? And you want it back? Well, sunshine, when we get Calais....."
Some of us want the French to honour the Treaty of Troyes.
If Henry V had lived another twenty years, and made good his claim to France, England would probably have become a backwater.

Let the Brexiteers finish the job!

TOPPING · January 2018

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.

The Dukes of Normandy had to pay homage to the King of France and France (the Capetians) received that homage, not to say there weren't constant disputes between the two over territory.

Sandpit · January 2018

TheScreamingEagles said:
Posted without comment

ttps://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/953993199873179655

So *THAT* is why people like them on pizzas?

Theuniondivvie · January 2018

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French? They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?

It certainly depicts an English rather than a British defeat.

Sean_F · January 2018

TOPPING said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.
The Dukes of Normandy had to pay homage to the King of France and France (the Capetians) received that homage, not to say there weren't constant disputes between the two over territory.

France was in the odd position in 1066 that vassals like the Duke of Normandy, the Count of Toulouse, and the Duke of Acquitaine were far more powerful and wealthy than their nominal overlord, the King of France.

TheScreamingEagles · January 2018

Foxy said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.
The Normans aren't French, leftover Vikings is more apt.

Their language was Norman French, think of it like American English, a language spoken by people who aren't English.
Surely, after a century in France the Normans would be French, even if of Viking stock?

After all if I suggested that those with less than a century of ancestral residence weren't British...

It's all a state of mind.

I'm British, my head and heart are British, the Normans were Norman.

Plus it'll be bad for our national psyche if it turns we were invaded by the French.

We can live with a Netherlander upstart invading us, but not les grenouilles.

Pulpstar · January 2018

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.
The Dukes of Normandy had to pay homage to the King of France and France (the Capetians) received that homage, not to say there weren't constant disputes between the two over territory.
France was in the odd position in 1066 that vassals like the Duke of Normandy, the Count of Toulouse, and the Duke of Acquitaine were far more powerful and wealthy than their nominal overlord, the King of France.

A bit like Jeff Bezos and Donald Trump

?

Peter_the_Punter · January 2018

Theuniondivvie said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French? They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
It certainly depicts an English rather than a British defeat.

Wasn't Harold himself of Scandinavian stock?

TOPPING · January 2018

Peter_the_Punter said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French? They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
It certainly depicts an English rather than a British defeat.
Wasn't Harold himself of Scandinavian stock?

Anglo Saxon

Sean_F · January 2018

Peter_the_Punter said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French? They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
It certainly depicts an English rather than a British defeat.
Wasn't Harold himself of Scandinavian stock?

Anglo-Saxons, Normans, and Danes all originated from the same part of Europe.

Pulpstar · January 2018

TheScreamingEagles said:

We can live with a Netherlander upstart invading us, but not les grenouilles.

The Ulster-Netherlands relationship is what saved us from Corbyn at the last GE

TOPPING · January 2018

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.
The Dukes of Normandy had to pay homage to the King of France and France (the Capetians) received that homage, not to say there weren't constant disputes between the two over territory.
France was in the odd position in 1066 that vassals like the Duke of Normandy, the Count of Toulouse, and the Duke of Acquitaine were far more powerful and wealthy than their nominal overlord, the King of France.

Yes - and hence the importance of when the English crown decided to make alliances, most notably ofc Henry II with Eleanor. It all threatened the king (at that time, Louis VII iirc).

TheScreamingEagles · January 2018

Pulpstar said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We can live with a Netherlander upstart invading us, but not les grenouilles.
The Ulster-Netherlands relationship is what saved us from Corbyn at the last GE

I voted for someone of Netherlander stock at the last general election.

Foxy · January 2018

Sean_F said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French? They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
It certainly depicts an English rather than a British defeat.
Wasn't Harold himself of Scandinavian stock?
Anglo-Saxons, Normans, and Danes all originated from the same part of Europe.

All part of our pan-European culture

williamglenn · January 2018

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French? They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?

Edward the Confessor's mother was a Norman. It was all just part of the neverending European civil war.

david_herdson · January 2018

Peter_the_Punter said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French? They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
It certainly depicts an English rather than a British defeat.
Wasn't Harold himself of Scandinavian stock?

Half and half. English (Saxon) father, Danish mother.

Sean_F · January 2018

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.
The Dukes of Normandy had to pay homage to the King of France and France (the Capetians) received that homage, not to say there weren't constant disputes between the two over territory.
France was in the odd position in 1066 that vassals like the Duke of Normandy, the Count of Toulouse, and the Duke of Acquitaine were far more powerful and wealthy than their nominal overlord, the King of France.
Yes - and hence the importance of when the English crown decided to make alliances, most notably ofc Henry II with Eleanor. It all threatened the king (at that time, Louis VII iirc).

Richard the Lionheart ruled over about two thirds of France. John lost more than half of that territory, and would have lost England to Prince Louis Capet, had he not died.

Big_G_NorthWales · January 2018

Business Department announce it is setting up a task force of business and the unions to support firms and workers affected by Carillion's collapse.

Very sensible development

Pulpstar · January 2018

TheScreamingEagles said:

Pulpstar said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

We can live with a Netherlander upstart invading us, but not les grenouilles.
The Ulster-Netherlands relationship is what saved us from Corbyn at the last GE
I voted for someone of Netherlander stock at the last general election.

Things looked a bit iffy when I came across more Labour posters doing delivery in Totley than Diamonds.

AndyJS · January 2018

Cathy Newman interviews Jordan Peterson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54

TOPPING · January 2018

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.
The Dukes of Normandy had to pay homage to the King of France and France (the Capetians) received that homage, not to say there weren't constant disputes between the two over territory.
France was in the odd position in 1066 that vassals like the Duke of Normandy, the Count of Toulouse, and the Duke of Acquitaine were far more powerful and wealthy than their nominal overlord, the King of France.
Yes - and hence the importance of when the English crown decided to make alliances, most notably ofc Henry II with Eleanor. It all threatened the king (at that time, Louis VII iirc).
Richard the Lionheart ruled over about two thirds of France. John lost more than half of that territory, and would have lost England to Prince Louis Capet, had he not died.

Yes not our best royal ever.

logical_song · January 2018

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.
The Dukes of Normandy had to pay homage to the King of France and France (the Capetians) received that homage, not to say there weren't constant disputes between the two over territory.
France was in the odd position in 1066 that vassals like the Duke of Normandy, the Count of Toulouse, and the Duke of Acquitaine were far more powerful and wealthy than their nominal overlord, the King of France.
Yes - and hence the importance of when the English crown decided to make alliances, most notably ofc Henry II with Eleanor. It all threatened the king (at that time, Louis VII iirc).
Richard the Lionheart ruled over about two thirds of France. John lost more than half of that territory, and would have lost England to Prince Louis Capet, had he not died.
Yes not our best royal ever.

Richard the Lionheart allegedly didn't speak English.

FrancisUrquhart · January 2018

AndyJS said:
Cathy Newman interviews Jordan Peterson:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcjxSThD54

Cathy Newman interaction is really annoying, with her one line attack style questions. Peterson's positions on lots of things are nuanced and complex, simply screaming "BUT WOMEN PAID LESS, THAT'S NOT OK", doesn't enhance the viewer in hearing what Peterson has to say.

Given it is 30min interview, rather than the usual 5 mins stuff, there is much more scope to explore fully interesting issues. The likes of Dave Rubin and Sam Harris have far better interviews with him, managing to agree and disagree with him.

Sean_F · January 2018

logical_song said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.
The Dukes of Normandy had to pay homage to the King of France and France (the Capetians) received that homage, not to say there weren't constant disputes between the two over territory.
France was in the odd position in 1066 that vassals like the Duke of Normandy, the Count of Toulouse, and the Duke of Acquitaine were far more powerful and wealthy than their nominal overlord, the King of France.
Yes - and hence the importance of when the English crown decided to make alliances, most notably ofc Henry II with Eleanor. It all threatened the king (at that time, Louis VII iirc).
Richard the Lionheart ruled over about two thirds of France. John lost more than half of that territory, and would have lost England to Prince Louis Capet, had he not died.
Yes not our best royal ever.
Richard the Lionheart allegedly didn't speak English.

Very few of the upper classes did, in the 12th century. It wasn't till the 14th century that most of them spoke English. Quite a lot of nobility and royalty have viewed French as the language of civilised people (upper class Russians mostly spoke French in the 18th century, as did Frederick the Great).

felix · January 2018

I see Osborne is not being offered a peerage. Time to empty that freezer? :-)

rpjs · January 2018

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French? They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?

The Duke of Normandy was a vassal of the King of France, although throughout the Middle Ages that was nearly as binding as being a vassal of the Holy Roman Emperor after 1648.

Yorkcity · January 2018

Big_G_NorthWales said:
Business Department announce it is setting up a task force of business and the unions to support firms and workers affected by Carillion's collapse.

Very sensible development

Agreed, also Nationwide have taken Carillion contract workers in house from 22cnd Jan.

SouthamObserver · January 2018

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.

The French they (used to) speak in the Channel islands is a direct descendent of the French that the Normans spoke. As I recall, beck is one of the few Norse words to make it into Norman French - and you can see it in a fair few place names in Normandy (bec). By the time of the conquest the Normans were to all intents and purposes French in terms of culture and language. Their one big distinguishing point - which you can see clearly on the Bayeux Tapestry - was their shaved hairstyle.

Theuniondivvie · January 2018

Peter_the_Punter said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French? They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
It certainly depicts an English rather than a British defeat.
Wasn't Harold himself of Scandinavian stock?

Aye.
A dynastic tussle between Anglo Gemano Danes and Franco Dano Norwegians.

Or the English and French to use shorthand.

dixiedean · January 2018

Sean_F said:

logical_song said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.
The Dukes of Normandy had to pay homage to the King of France and France (the Capetians) received that homage, not to say there weren't constant disputes between the two over territory.
France was in the odd position in 1066 that vassals like the Duke of Normandy, the Count of Toulouse, and the Duke of Acquitaine were far more powerful and wealthy than their nominal overlord, the King of France.
Yes - and hence the importance of when the English crown decided to make alliances, most notably ofc Henry II with Eleanor. It all threatened the king (at that time, Louis VII iirc).
Richard the Lionheart ruled over about two thirds of France. John lost more than half of that territory, and would have lost England to Prince Louis Capet, had he not died.
Yes not our best royal ever.
Richard the Lionheart allegedly didn't speak English.
Very few of the upper classes did, in the 12th century. It wasn't till the 14th century that most of them spoke English. Quite a lot of nobility and royalty have viewed French as the language of civilised people (upper class Russians mostly spoke French in the 18th century, as did Frederick the Great).

Indeed. Much of the dialogue in War and Peace is in French. Particularly when Tolstoy wishes to indicate an out-of-touch elite.

Big_G_NorthWales · January 2018

Yorkcity said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:
Business Department announce it is setting up a task force of business and the unions to support firms and workers affected by Carillion's collapse.

Very sensible development
Agreed, also Nationwide have taken Carillion contract workers in house from 22cnd Jan.

That is good news

Morris_Dancer · January 2018

Good afternoon, everyone.

Mr. RPJS, just reading Marc Morris' The Norman Conquest (which may still be discounted to £3). It wasn't that simple. Immediately before the Conquest, Duke William (later the Conqueror) found his land invaded by the Count of Anjou and King Henry (of France). He defeated them, and a second invasion.

Mr. F, indeed. Imagine if Richard had lived, or John had died earlier and, say, William Marshal had become regent. John had lost about a third of England to the French.

Casino_Royale · January 2018

Sean_F said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MarqueeMark said:
Very bold of the French to let us have the Bayeaux tapestry. I mean...

"Oh it's yours? And you want it back? Well, sunshine, when we get Calais....."
Some of us want the French to honour the Treaty of Troyes.
If Henry V had lived another twenty years, and made good his claim to France, England would probably have become a backwater.

Would've been quite cool if France was English, though.

I mean, the French have a country that's much too good for them.

williamglenn · January 2018

Theuniondivvie said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Theuniondivvie said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French? They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
It certainly depicts an English rather than a British defeat.
Wasn't Harold himself of Scandinavian stock?
Aye.
A dynastic tussle between Anglo Gemano Danes and Franco Dano Norwegians.

Or the English and French to use shorthand.

It sounds like the Medieval equivalent of the transfer window.

david_herdson · January 2018

logical_song said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.
The Dukes of Normandy had to pay homage to the King of France and France (the Capetians) received that homage, not to say there weren't constant disputes between the two over territory.
France was in the odd position in 1066 that vassals like the Duke of Normandy, the Count of Toulouse, and the Duke of Acquitaine were far more powerful and wealthy than their nominal overlord, the King of France.
Yes - and hence the importance of when the English crown decided to make alliances, most notably ofc Henry II with Eleanor. It all threatened the king (at that time, Louis VII iirc).
Richard the Lionheart ruled over about two thirds of France. John lost more than half of that territory, and would have lost England to Prince Louis Capet, had he not died.
Yes not our best royal ever.
Richard the Lionheart allegedly didn't speak English.

He's absurdly overrated. That he has a statue outside Westminster says a lot more of its commissioners than its subject.

david_herdson · January 2018

felix said:
I see Osborne is not being offered a peerage. Time to empty that freezer? :-)

He'd be daft to take it. Cuts off too many options.

Casino_Royale · January 2018

david_herdson said:

logical_song said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.
The Dukes of Normandy had to pay homage to the King of France and France (the Capetians) received that homage, not to say there weren't constant disputes between the two over territory.
France was in the odd position in 1066 that vassals like the Duke of Normandy, the Count of Toulouse, and the Duke of Acquitaine were far more powerful and wealthy than their nominal overlord, the King of France.
Yes - and hence the importance of when the English crown decided to make alliances, most notably ofc Henry II with Eleanor. It all threatened the king (at that time, Louis VII iirc).
Richard the Lionheart ruled over about two thirds of France. John lost more than half of that territory, and would have lost England to Prince Louis Capet, had he not died.
Yes not our best royal ever.
Richard the Lionheart allegedly didn't speak English.
He's absurdly overrated. That he has a statue outside Westminster says a lot more of its commissioners than its subject.

Thank Robin Hood, for that.

Casino_Royale · January 2018

dixiedean said:

Sean_F said:

logical_song said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. .
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.
The Dukes of Normandy had to pay homage to the King of France and France (the Capetians) received that homage, not to say there weren't constant disputes between the two over territory.
France was in the odd position in 1066 that vassals like the Duke of Normandy, the Count of Toulouse, and the Duke of Acquitaine were far more powerful and wealthy than their nominal overlord, the King of France.
Yes - and hence the importance of when the English crown decided to make alliances, most notably ofc Henry II with Eleanor. It all threatened the king (at that time, Louis VII iirc).
Richard the Lionheart ruled over about two thirds of France. John lost more than half of that territory, and would have lost England to Prince Louis Capet, had he not died.
Yes not our best royal ever.
Richard the Lionheart allegedly didn't speak English.
Very few of the upper classes did, in the 12th century. It wasn't till the 14th century that most of them spoke English. Quite a lot of nobility and royalty have viewed French as the language of civilised people (upper class Russians mostly spoke French in the 18th century, as did Frederick the Great).
Indeed. Much of the dialogue in War and Peace is in French. Particularly when Tolstoy wishes to indicate an out-of-touch elite.

Maybe Blair, Adonis, Clegg and AC Grayling should start speaking French to one another.

TheScreamingEagles · January 2018

Casino_Royale said:
Thank Robin Hood, for that.

David's right though.

What did Cœur de Lion do for England and its peoples?

Someone estimated he only spent six months of his reign in L'Angleterre.

AndyJS · January 2018

logical_song said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Sean_F said:

TOPPING said:

Ishmael_Z said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

Ishmael_Z said:
For all the LOLs, the Bayeux Tapestry must be among the ten most valuable portable things in the world, along with the Mona Lisa, David, Tut death mask, complete list according to taste. It is also probably the least portable of the lot, and moving it is fraught with danger. Add to that the sheer fecking symbolism of a loan by France to us of a thing depicting what it depicts, and this is the most astonishingly generous gesture. I am sure we will have no problem misunderstanding and snubbing it, mind you.
Doesn't it depict a Norman victory, not French. They were quite different 'nations' weren't they?
Well, the Normans were left-over Vikings who forgot to go home, as I understand it, but I think for symbolic purposes and from this distance in time we can count them as French, or at leastcount the French as their rightful heirs. Being sort of a linguist I put quite a lot of weight on the fact that they spoke proper french at a time when even lots of France didn't - see under Langue d'Oc.
The Dukes of Normandy had to pay homage to the King of France and France (the Capetians) received that homage, not to say there weren't constant disputes between the two over territory.
France was in the odd position in 1066 that vassals like the Duke of Normandy, the Count of Toulouse, and the Duke of Acquitaine were far more powerful and wealthy than their nominal overlord, the King of France.
Yes - and hence the importance of when the English crown decided to make alliances, most notably ofc Henry II with Eleanor. It all threatened the king (at that time, Louis VII iirc).
Richard the Lionheart ruled over about two thirds of France. John lost more than half of that territory, and would have lost England to Prince Louis Capet, had he not died.
Yes not our best royal ever.
Richard the Lionheart allegedly didn't speak English.

Queen Victoria's first language was German.

AlastairMeeks · January 2018

I expect George Osborne will get a peerage if and when he ever wants one. I am bemused about the fuss now - I can't imagine it would improve his journalistic street cred to accept an honour from the government while he's a serving editor of a newspaper.

david_herdson · January 2018

Sean_F said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MarqueeMark said:
Very bold of the French to let us have the Bayeaux tapestry. I mean...

"Oh it's yours? And you want it back? Well, sunshine, when we get Calais....."
Some of us want the French to honour the Treaty of Troyes.
If Henry V had lived another twenty years, and made good his claim to France, England would probably have become a backwater.

He'd still have been succeeded by Henry VI. With so much dividing the two countries, they'd surely have remained just a personal union rather than a single state, and at some point - probably not all that distant a point - a revolt in one or the other would have broken that union.

TheScreamingEagles · January 2018

AlastairMeeks said:
I expect George Osborne will get a peerage if and when he ever wants one. I am bemused about the fuss now - I can't imagine it would improve his journalistic street cred to accept an honour from the government while he's a serving editor of a newspaper.

I pointed out last night that it isn't in his interests to accept one and he knows that.

As a peer he'd have to declare all his outside income, I think that might cause some apoplexy when they find out just how much he earns.

Morris_Dancer · January 2018

Mr. Herdson, I'd dispute that.

When Richard was king, England won back territory from the French. He was personally brave, and militarily skilled. Almost all the things for which he's criticised were standard behaviour for the time.

Edited extra bit: on crusade, a force he'd sent to forage was under severe attack, and he personally rode to the rescue even though he didn't have a huge number of men with him. Hard to imagine John doing that.

Pulpstar · January 2018

This chart says it all wrt PFI. I think it has a niche roll, but my word look at the cap value of the projects Brown got stuck into.

The Tory Gov'ts bookending the Blair/Brown years appear to be using it alot more sensibly.

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_medium/public/thumbnails/image/2018/01/18/14/pfi.jpg

Stark_Dawning · January 2018

AlastairMeeks said:
I expect George Osborne will get a peerage if and when he ever wants one. I am bemused about the fuss now - I can't imagine it would improve his journalistic street cred to accept an honour from the government while he's a serving editor of a newspaper.

And, of course, we can't rule out Ozzy returning to the Commons at some point. Like King Arthur, he will arise again to save England on its darkest day. (When's Brexit due again?)

TheScreamingEagles · January 2018

O/T - Are Manchester United on crack?

Alexis Sanchez on 450k per week, no wonder City turned him down, he'd be on roughly 200k a week MORE that City's best players.

Nigelb · January 2018

TheScreamingEagles said:
Posted without comment

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/953993199873179655

Literally the only interesting thing about pineapples...
http://theweek.com/articles/445825/curious-linguistic-history-pineapples-butterflies

eed · January 2018

You are in urgent need of new cartoonists.

AlastairMeeks · January 2018

TheScreamingEagles said:
O/T - Are Manchester United on crack?

Alexis Sanchez on 450k per week, no wonder City turned him down, he'd be on roughly 200k a week MORE that City's best players.

Perhaps Theresa May should ask Alexis Sanchez's agents to take over the Brexit negotiations.

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