Bolton is not resigning as UKIP explodes into oblivion
I don't know what they are complaining about. They had a democratic vote to select their leader. Time to respect the vote and obey the will of the people. Suck it up, losers!
But it won't be delivered by Keir Starmer. lol. It's far too important to be left to him. Hard Brexit would be delivered by Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne et al, who want out of the EU and the SM because it would stop them renationalising the trains, banks, clouds and air.
And they still wouldn't fuck it up badly as May.
Even you must realise this, but you seem to still be clinging religiously to the ridiculous belief that Brexit is the ONLY thing she won't fuck up.
Bolton is not resigning as UKIP explodes into oblivion
I don't know what they are complaining about. They had a democratic vote to select their leader. Time to respect the vote and obey the will of the people. Suck it up, losers!
Yes, but I think they're getting a second one now?
Bolton is not resigning as UKIP explodes into oblivion
I don't know what they are complaining about. They had a democratic vote to select their leader. Time to respect the vote and obey the will of the people. Suck it up, losers!
If Corbyn were more in touch with his own party's base (i.e. the people who are *already* intending to vote Labour), then somehow Labour's polling position would be better?
And let's not even get into the fact that Brexit is vastly overestimated as an issue of electoral salience by the political bubble. As others have noted, the NHS, housing, education etc are much bigger to the average Joe and Julie.
The real way in which Labour can open up a big polling lead is by winning over Tory voters who aren't completely obsessed with Brexit and who are primarily concerned with the bread and butter issues mentioned above (which is actually the vast majority of them, again contrary to the general view of the political bubble).
Corbyn and McDonnell are hard left Marxists and the idea conservatives will vote for economic armageddon is for the birds
Possible, but it's also possible that this has worked nicely in Labour's favour. Corbyn keeps the sceptics aboard, the Party's generally pro-EU stance keeps the eurosausage enthusiasts happy.
I think it works out very well for them. The euro-sausage enthusiasts only want revenge on the Conservatives. They'd vote for Pol Pot if they thought they'd get that revenge.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has noticed that. Even I've been surprised by how vociferous their support of the EU has been.
It was never that vociferous before/during the Referendum campaign. Probably because they knew how small a minority that would put them in.
And how likely it was to rile the average voter.
I suspect your view is coloured by being based in the west county. In most of the South, and indeed much of London, it was LibDem activists who carried the Remain ground campaign, such as it was.
The only places I still see sad, old, peeling Vote Remain posters are the poshest parts of Lib Dem voting southwest London.
I've seen way more Remain posters since 23rd June 2016.
And by posters, I mean pieces of paper, not williamglenns.
Remain campaigners appear not to have realised that they needed to make their points *before* we had a referendum on the subject.
Off topic: Is the Times subscription worth it? Am finally considering it.
I don't subscribe, but the luxury of stretching out with a copy of the Times over either a cup of coffee or a gin, reading the Letters page first, then the obits, then the news pages, then Times2 - is a very pleasant one.
I do that in my local cafe. It is indeed very pleasant.
My main reason for thinking about subscription is mainly so that I can link to interesting and relevant articles on it on my website.
Putting scanned copies filched from my local is not quite the done thing.......
I may try the taster version and see what it's like.
But it won't be delivered by Keir Starmer. lol. It's far too important to be left to him. Hard Brexit would be delivered by Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne et al, who want out of the EU and the SM because it would stop them renationalising the trains, banks, clouds and air.
And they still wouldn't fuck it up badly as May.
Even you must realise this, but you seem to still be clinging religiously to the ridiculous belief that Brexit is the ONLY thing she won't fuck up.
Bless...
Don't forget, Brexit = socialism. Perfect and wonderful in principle, just that no one is able to implement it properly.
The premise upon which this thread header is based, and indeed about 50% of PB's thread headers of late, is that Brexit is going to be a big deal. It really isn't. That was the significance of Jim O'Neill's comments which I linked to this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42769090
What he says, and he was a strong remainer, is that any economic effect of Brexit is likely to be "dwarfed" by a general uplift in world trading conditions so that the UK economy is likely to grow faster in 2018 than currently thought. The loss that he thinks the UK will suffer, 3% over 12 years to 2030, is "neither here nor there". In short the economic disaster that has been continually forecast is cancelled indefinitely.
Given that it will almost certainly be impossible to show any loss (or gain) from Brexit the idea that there is this yawning gap in British politics waiting to be filled is fantasy. The party best placed to fill that gap sits on about 6% and is going precisely nowhere despite the almost complete ineptitude of both of the major parties.
Of course there will still be a tiny minority who think that it is a shame that we are no longer a part of the councils of Europe, or sitting at the top table of our continent or whatever but the idea that there are a material number of votes in this is for the birds. Corbyn doesn't get much right but he is right on this. For this generation at least the question of whether we are in the EU or out of it is decided. Its time to move on to more interesting and important matters.
@JoeWatts_: Ukip's Henry Bolton: "I respect the next steps in the constitutional process and will therefore not be resigning as Party leader. I repeat I shall not be resigning as Party leader."
But it won't be delivered by Keir Starmer. lol. It's far too important to be left to him. Hard Brexit would be delivered by Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne et al, who want out of the EU and the SM because it would stop them renationalising the trains, banks, clouds and air.
And they still wouldn't fuck it up badly as May.
Even you must realise this, but you seem to still be clinging religiously to the ridiculous belief that Brexit is the ONLY thing she won't fuck up.
Bless...
Unlike you with your use of language. We know you are a fully paid up member of the EU
So for the second time in two years, a party leader having lost the support of his colleagues, refuses to resign and submits himself to his members. Corbyn and his cronies will be familiar with the quote from Karl Marx: "History repeats itself, the first time as tragedy, the second time as farce"
Bolton is not resigning as UKIP explodes into oblivion
Bolton doesn't have the finances to wine and dine the UKIP NEC and spokespeople and get their personal support for his leadership even if the party members voted for him.
Off topic: Is the Times subscription worth it? Am finally considering it.
Their lead travel writer is a journalist by the name Sean Thomas. If that's any help.
Also, quite seriously, yes: it is the best paper as a "proper" newspaper, and their iPad/iPhone apps are now excellent (after being dreadful for years).
However for quick news in the morning I still usually go to the BBC, Guardian, or FT. Or Telegraph for Brexitbait. Then in the evening I will peruse the Times properly, if I'm at home.
Jesus, did I just say "peruse"?
I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.
Yeah: I've read this Thomas fellow. Pretty good, I must say. Is he likely to be travelling to Botswana or Namibia in the near future? Because I'm considering them for a possible trip in the next year or so.
The Telegraph is dreadful. The Mail is good for videos of cute cats making the bed etc and Meghan/Harry stuff. I never look at the BBC. Prospect and Quillette are quite good for lengthier and more thoughtful articles. I daren't look at any more otherwise I would waste my days even more than I do already.......
Off topic: Is the Times subscription worth it? Am finally considering it.
I don't subscribe, but the luxury of stretching out with a copy of the Times over either a cup of coffee or a gin, reading the Letters page first, then the obits, then the news pages, then Times2 - is a very pleasant one.
I do that in my local cafe. It is indeed very pleasant.
My main reason for thinking about subscription is mainly so that I can link to interesting and relevant articles on it on my website.
Putting scanned copies filched from my local is not quite the done thing.......
I may try the taster version and see what it's like.
Yebbut wouldn't the people reading your website have to have the subscription also to be able to read the articles?
But it won't be delivered by Keir Starmer. lol. It's far too important to be left to him. Hard Brexit would be delivered by Corbyn, McDonnell, Milne et al, who want out of the EU and the SM because it would stop them renationalising the trains, banks, clouds and air.
And they still wouldn't fuck it up badly as May.
Even you must realise this, but you seem to still be clinging religiously to the ridiculous belief that Brexit is the ONLY thing she won't fuck up.
Bless...
Of course she will fuck it up. How many times do I have to say this. Brexit is by definition a bloody mess and a hideous ordeal. A fuck up. Like HAVING A BABY. No individual leader could make it significantly better - or worse. It is a revolution, not an evolution. It is beyond the wit of one person to affect its course majorly.
TMay is dire and depressing. She makes me groan. I'd like someone better, but I wouldn't expect them to delivery a vastly different Brexit.
Corbyn is much much worse because on top of the necessary but wearisome difficulties of Brexit he'd add Chavez style communism and we'd all die of malnutrition if we weren't beheaded by his Islamist friends first.
The premise upon which this thread header is based, and indeed about 50% of PB's thread headers of late, is that Brexit is going to be a big deal. It really isn't. That was the significance of Jim O'Neill's comments which I linked to this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42769090
What he says, and he was a strong remainer, is that any economic effect of Brexit is likely to be "dwarfed" by a general uplift in world trading conditions so that the UK economy is likely to grow faster in 2018 than currently thought. The loss that he thinks the UK will suffer, 3% over 12 years to 2030, is "neither here nor there". In short the economic disaster that has been continually forecast is cancelled indefinitely.
Given that it will almost certainly be impossible to show any loss (or gain) from Brexit the idea that there is this yawning gap in British politics waiting to be filled is fantasy. The party best placed to fill that gap sits on about 6% and is going precisely nowhere despite the almost complete ineptitude of both of the major parties.
Of course there will still be a tiny minority who think that it is a shame that we are no longer a part of the councils of Europe, or sitting at the top table of our continent or whatever but the idea that there are a material number of votes in this is for the birds. Corbyn doesn't get much right but he is right on this. For this generation at least the question of whether we are in the EU or out of it is decided. Its time to move on to more interesting and important matters.
Yes. It's just curious that otherwise sensible people have voted for a diminution in wealth. Still, no one on a healthy six figure salary should worry about it too much, as you rightly note.
Off topic: Is the Times subscription worth it? Am finally considering it.
Their lead travel writer is a journalist by the name Sean Thomas. If that's any help.
Also, quite seriously, yes: it is the best paper as a "proper" newspaper, and their iPad/iPhone apps are now excellent (after being dreadful for years).
However for quick news in the morning I still usually go to the BBC, Guardian, or FT. Or Telegraph for Brexitbait. Then in the evening I will peruse the Times properly, if I'm at home.
Jesus, did I just say "peruse"?
I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.
Yeah: I've read this Thomas fellow. Pretty good, I must say. Is he likely to be travelling to Botswana or Namibia in the near future? Because I'm considering them for a possible trip in the next year or so.
The Telegraph is dreadful. The Mail is good for videos of cute cats making the bed etc and Meghan/Harry stuff. I never look at the BBC. Prospect and Quillette are quite good for lengthier and more thoughtful articles. I daren't look at any more otherwise I would waste my days even more than I do already.......
Don’t forget the Guardian. Despite the editorial slant, the depth of coverage is pretty good. Telegraph truly is dreadful. Full of click bait these days.
Off topic: Is the Times subscription worth it? Am finally considering it.
Their lead travel writer is a journalist by the name Sean Thomas. If that's any help.
Also, quite seriously, yes: it is the best paper as a "proper" newspaper, and their iPad/iPhone apps are now excellent (after being dreadful for years).
However for quick news in the morning I still usually go to the BBC, Guardian, or FT. Or Telegraph for Brexitbait. Then in the evening I will peruse the Times properly, if I'm at home.
Jesus, did I just say "peruse"?
I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.
Yeah: I've read this Thomas fellow. Pretty good, I must say. Is he likely to be travelling to Botswana or Namibia in the near future? Because I'm considering them for a possible trip in the next year or so.
The Telegraph is dreadful. The Mail is good for videos of cute cats making the bed etc and Meghan/Harry stuff. I never look at the BBC. Prospect and Quillette are quite good for lengthier and more thoughtful articles. I daren't look at any more otherwise I would waste my days even more than I do already.......
I cancelled my telegraph subscription when they front paged the conservative Brexit rebels even though I support Brexit. I do get the Daily Mail on line at £9.99 per month mainly because my good lady loves the puzzles.
I did have a subscription to the Times which is excellent but took up too much of my time
The premise upon which this thread header is based, and indeed about 50% of PB's thread headers of late, is that Brexit is going to be a big deal. It really isn't. That was the significance of Jim O'Neill's comments which I linked to this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42769090
What he says, and he was a strong remainer, is that any economic effect of Brexit is likely to be "dwarfed" by a general uplift in world trading conditions so that the UK economy is likely to grow faster in 2018 than currently thought. The loss that he thinks the UK will suffer, 3% over 12 years to 2030, is "neither here nor there". In short the economic disaster that has been continually forecast is cancelled indefinitely.
Given that it will almost certainly be impossible to show any loss (or gain) from Brexit the idea that there is this yawning gap in British politics waiting to be filled is fantasy. The party best placed to fill that gap sits on about 6% and is going precisely nowhere despite the almost complete ineptitude of both of the major parties.
Of course there will still be a tiny minority who think that it is a shame that we are no longer a part of the councils of Europe, or sitting at the top table of our continent or whatever but the idea that there are a material number of votes in this is for the birds. Corbyn doesn't get much right but he is right on this. For this generation at least the question of whether we are in the EU or out of it is decided. Its time to move on to more interesting and important matters.
Yes. It's just curious that otherwise sensible people have voted for a diminution in wealth. Still, no one on a healthy six figure salary should worry about it too much, as you rightly note.
I personally don't believe that there will be a diminution in wealth but I acknowledge it is a possibility. But good luck finding it one way or the other, it will be swamped by a dozen more important factors over that timescale.
The key point is that once the economic argument is put into perspective why the hell would any sane person want to remain in something as dysfunctional and undemocratic as the EU? I can only put the fact that it was as close as it was down to the advantages that a government with a seriously capable PM has in a referendum.
The premise upon which this thread header is based, and indeed about 50% of PB's thread headers of late, is that Brexit is going to be a big deal. It really isn't. That was the significance of Jim O'Neill's comments which I linked to this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42769090
What he says, and he was a strong remainer, is that any economic effect of Brexit is likely to be "dwarfed" by a general uplift in world trading conditions so that the UK economy is likely to grow faster in 2018 than currently thought. The loss that he thinks the UK will suffer, 3% over 12 years to 2030, is "neither here nor there". In short the economic disaster that has been continually forecast is cancelled indefinitely.
Given that it will almost certainly be impossible to show any loss (or gain) from Brexit the idea that there is this yawning gap in British politics waiting to be filled is fantasy. The party best placed to fill that gap sits on about 6% and is going precisely nowhere despite the almost complete ineptitude of both of the major parties.
Of course there will still be a tiny minority who think that it is a shame that we are no longer a part of the councils of Europe, or sitting at the top table of our continent or whatever but the idea that there are a material number of votes in this is for the birds. Corbyn doesn't get much right but he is right on this. For this generation at least the question of whether we are in the EU or out of it is decided. Its time to move on to more interesting and important matters.
I was in a meeting with Heidelberg this morning. Their representative was emphatic that they are comfortable about Brexit, that decision makers have moved on and 2018 would be a good sales year in the UK. He said fears were very definitely overblown.
As a commercial printer we had a record year in 2017 and we hear our competitors have did well too. Our bosses are investing in new kit to prepare for more sales growth this year.
I'm still waiting for the roof to fall in because the news is so negative, but 20 months on from the vote disaster is yet to strike.
The premise upon which this thread header is based, and indeed about 50% of PB's thread headers of late, is that Brexit is going to be a big deal. It really isn't. That was the significance of Jim O'Neill's comments which I linked to this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42769090
Brexit is primarily a political event, not an economic event.
Does anyone really think any British government is going to spend money on new customs infrastructure that would act as a visible symbol of the end of frictionless trade with Europe?
TMay is dire and depressing. She makes me groan. I'd like someone better, but I wouldn't expect them to delivery a vastly different Brexit.
The cognitive dissonance is staggering. Try this...
TMay is dire and depressing. I'd like someone better, but I wouldn't expect them to delivery a vastly different...
...Election result
...conference speech
...reshuffle
...Brexit
Why is Brexit the only one on that list you think wouldn't be any different?
Blind faith is a wonderful thing.
Theresa May is a poor PM. But, she's not harming me or mine. Corbyn and co. would do. The fact that Corbyn might be more competent at harming me then Theresa May is at not harming me would be cold comfort.
The key point is that once the economic argument is put into perspective why the hell would any sane person want to remain in something as dysfunctional and undemocratic as the EU?
The argument the Brexiteers have been pitching here is that the economic outlook is better, because of growth in the EU.
So the perspective is the EU is doing better than the Brexiteers claimed.
Off topic: Is the Times subscription worth it? Am finally considering it.
I don't subscribe, but the luxury of stretching out with a copy of the Times over either a cup of coffee or a gin, reading the Letters page first, then the obits, then the news pages, then Times2 - is a very pleasant one.
I do that in my local cafe. It is indeed very pleasant.
My main reason for thinking about subscription is mainly so that I can link to interesting and relevant articles on it on my website.
Putting scanned copies filched from my local is not quite the done thing.......
I may try the taster version and see what it's like.
Yebbut wouldn't the people reading your website have to have the subscription also to be able to read the articles?
The sorts of clients I'm aiming at would almost certainly have company subscriptions if not personal ones. And sometimes the headlines may be enough for my purposes, which is not primarily to increase the Times's readership.
I can have selective taster quotes but there are laws about copying great chunks of copyrighted articles.
The premise upon which this thread header is based, and indeed about 50% of PB's thread headers of late, is that Brexit is going to be a big deal. It really isn't. That was the significance of Jim O'Neill's comments which I linked to this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42769090
Brexit is primarily a political event, not an economic event.
Does anyone really think any British government is going to spend money on new customs infrastructure that would act as a visible symbol of the end of frictionless trade with Europe?
I completely agree. And in fairness you have always been clear that you saw it in those terms and believed that politically it was a mistake for the UK. Fair enough. I disagree but I respect the viewpoint.
What I am totally bored with is those claiming that our industries will be closing down or departing, that our exports will collapse, that our planes will not be able to land, that our legal system will be in more chaos than usual, that those not deeply interested in the politics as you are will even notice. It's just not true.
No, as diehard Remainers are already overwhelmingly voting Labour anyway and if not they will be voting LD and not Tory.
It is Corbynite socialism that is keeping June 2017 Tories from switching to Labour not Labour's acceptance of the Brexit vote and most of the Tory marginals Corbyn needs to win for a working majority voted Leave and not Remain.
The premise upon which this thread header is based, and indeed about 50% of PB's thread headers of late, is that Brexit is going to be a big deal. It really isn't. That was the significance of Jim O'Neill's comments which I linked to this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42769090
What he says, and he was a strong remainer, is that any economic effect of Brexit is likely to be "dwarfed" by a general uplift in world trading conditions so that the UK economy is likely to grow faster in 2018 than currently thought. The loss that he thinks the UK will suffer, 3% over 12 years to 2030, is "neither here nor there". In short the economic disaster that has been continually forecast is cancelled indefinitely.
Given that it will almost certainly be impossible to show any loss (or gain) from Brexit the idea that there is this yawning gap in British politics waiting to be filled is fantasy. The party best placed to fill that gap sits on about 6% and is going precisely nowhere despite the almost complete ineptitude of both of the major parties.
Of course there will still be a tiny minority who think that it is a shame that we are no longer a part of the councils of Europe, or sitting at the top table of our continent or whatever but the idea that there are a material number of votes in this is for the birds. Corbyn doesn't get much right but he is right on this. For this generation at least the question of whether we are in the EU or out of it is decided. Its time to move on to more interesting and important matters.
I was in a meeting with Heidelberg this morning. Their representative was emphatic that they are comfortable about Brexit, that decision makers have moved on and 2018 would be a good sales year in the UK. He said fears were very definitely overblown.
As a commercial printer we had a record year in 2017 and we hear our competitors have did well too. Our bosses are investing in new kit to prepare for more sales growth this year.
I'm still waiting for the roof to fall in because the news is so negative, but 20 months on from the vote disaster is yet to strike.
Brexit will probably be a largely symbolic non event despite the hysterical narrative of doom. Reason Labour can't pull ahead is because they are crap, again despite the narrative now being that Corbyn is some kind of political genius.
The premise upon which this thread header is based, and indeed about 50% of PB's thread headers of late, is that Brexit is going to be a big deal. It really isn't. That was the significance of Jim O'Neill's comments which I linked to this morning: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42769090
What he says, and he was a shat has been continually forecast is cancelled indefinitely.
Given that it will almost cert Of course there will still be a tiny minority who think that it is a shame that we are no longer a part of the councils of Europe, or sitting at the top table of our continent or whatever but the idea that there are a material number of votes in this is for the birds. Corbyn doesn't get much right but he is right on this. For this generation at least the question of whether we are in the EU or out of it is decided. Its time to move on to more interesting and important matters.
Yes. It's just curious that otherwise sensible people have voted for a diminution in wealth. Still, no one on a healthy six figure salary should worry about it too much, as you rightly note.
I personally don't believe that there will be a diminution in wealth but I acknowledge it is a possibility. But good luck finding it one way or the other, it will be swamped by a dozen more important factors over that timescale.
The key point is that once the economic argument is put into perspective why the hell would any sane person want to remain in something as dysfunctional and undemocratic as the EU? I can only put the fact that it was as close as it was down to the advantages that a government with a seriously capable PM has in a referendum.
As you say, there will be plenty of noise to drown out any diminution of wealth. As to whether there will be one, haven't we seen already the action taken by the government not addressing the pressing problems of the country does constitute a diminution? And you think that whatever action following any agreement we get will not involve further cost that could have been allocated elsewhere? Fair enough.
But putting the key economic argument into perspective is precisely what people who can afford to do so will do. My question remains why we would have voted to incur that diminution.
As to the dysfunctional and undemocratic EU, I am I suppose disappointed at the lack of confidence you display in our country such that you don't think we could not only have stood up to them, but could have shaped the EU in a way to our advantage, within the context of being a modern, regional trading bloc.
The key point is that once the economic argument is put into perspective why the hell would any sane person want to remain in something as dysfunctional and undemocratic as the EU?
The argument the Brexiteers have been pitching here is that the economic outlook is better, because of growth in the EU.
So the perspective is the EU is doing better than the Brexiteers claimed.
And that would any sane person want to leave it?
Because we will gain anyway because our trade will not be materially affected. The EU, and in particular the EZ, has been a drag on our growth since the great recession. I will be delighted if that changes and it gives us a boost as well. Good luck to them. But stop pretending that Brexit will affect that materially.
To put it another way, the drivers for the world economy right now are China and the US. We will gain from both without even having a trade agreement. Magic!
At the end of the day, Labour voters are much more interested in what Corbyn has to say on public spending, nationalisation and his brand of socialism than anything that he says about Brexit. As an issue Brexit doesn't seem to rate for Labour voters. The trendy urbanites that are supporting Corbyn want nationalised railways and more NHS spending more than they want to stay in the EU or single market. If it wasn't true then the Lib Dems would be doing a lot better at capturing remain voters from Labour.
If anything Brexit is (as it has always been) a Tory issue. It rates higher than every subject for members and voters in Tory ranks. It is the subject on everyone's minds and will stay that way until we've left in 2019.
There's probably a set of ex-Tory voters who switched to Labour over Brexit, and who may now be tempted to back the Lib Dems. But, it's likely to be a small set of voters.
That's right; albeit it is a challenge to the Conservative Party in the more prosperous London suburbs and some of the commuter belt.
I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.
HYUFD said: Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.
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HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!
White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirt
On topic -m the reason why Labour is not pulling away from the Tories is that Corbyn is utterly toxic to a large number of floating voters. Of course, the Tories are equally as toxic to a large number of floating voters under Theresa May. The Tories, though, will have another leader come the next GE. Labour won't. If they can find someone not too closely associated with Brexit, the Tories have every chance of winning again.
The city’s police-officers union is cracking down on the number of “get out of jail free” courtesy cards distributed to cops to give to family and friends.
Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association boss Pat Lynch slashed the maximum number of cards that could be issued to current cops from 30 to 20, and to retirees from 20 to 10, sources told The Post.
The cards are often used to wiggle out of minor trouble such as speeding tickets, the theory being that presenting one suggests you know someone in the NYPD.
The rank and file is livid.
“They are treating active members like s–t, and retired members even worse than s–t,” griped an NYPD cop who retired on disability. “All the cops I spoke to were . . . very disappointed they couldn’t hand them out as Christmas gifts.”
A source said Lynch ordered the cutback to stop the sale of the cards, which were being hawked on eBay last week for as much as $200.
I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.
HYUFD said: Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.
-----------
HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!
White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirt
I doubt that man voted Labour TBH. Looks more like a Ukip or BNP supporter but who knows? Would you like to live next to a house like that??
Yes. It's just curious that otherwise sensible people have voted for a diminution in wealth. Still, no one on a healthy six figure salary should worry about it too much, as you rightly note.
I personally don't believe that there will be a diminution in wealth but I acknowledge it is a possibility. But good luck finding it one way or the other, it will be swamped by a dozen more important factors over that timescale.
The key point is that once the economic argument is put into perspective why the hell would any sane person want to remain in something as dysfunctional and undemocratic as the EU? I can only put the fact that it was as close as it was down to the advantages that a government with a seriously capable PM has in a referendum.
As you say, there will be plenty of noise to drown out any diminution of wealth. As to whether there will be one, haven't we seen already the action taken by the government not addressing the pressing problems of the country does constitute a diminution? And you think that whatever action following any agreement we get will not involve further cost that could have been allocated elsewhere? Fair enough.
But putting the key economic argument into perspective is precisely what people who can afford to do so will do. My question remains why we would have voted to incur that diminution.
As to the dysfunctional and undemocratic EU, I am I suppose disappointed at the lack of confidence you display in our country such that you don't think we could not only have stood up to them, but could have shaped the EU in a way to our advantage, within the context of being a modern, regional trading bloc.
No, I regard the failure of this government to address the pressing problems of this country as evidence of their ineptitude and incompetence. Are you seriously suggesting having David Davis in charge of something important would make it better?
On your second point the UK has been trying to reform the EU my entire adult life. With the arguable exception of the Single Market (and that really in respect of goods rather than services) we have failed.
The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.
I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.
It may be logical but it is also naive.
Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.
It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.
Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.
Unreconciled Remainers have few options.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.
The city’s police-officers union is cracking down on the number of “get out of jail free” courtesy cards distributed to cops to give to family and friends.
Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association boss Pat Lynch slashed the maximum number of cards that could be issued to current cops from 30 to 20, and to retirees from 20 to 10, sources told The Post.
The cards are often used to wiggle out of minor trouble such as speeding tickets, the theory being that presenting one suggests you know someone in the NYPD.
The rank and file is livid.
“They are treating active members like s–t, and retired members even worse than s–t,” griped an NYPD cop who retired on disability. “All the cops I spoke to were . . . very disappointed they couldn’t hand them out as Christmas gifts.”
A source said Lynch ordered the cutback to stop the sale of the cards, which were being hawked on eBay last week for as much as $200.
I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.
HYUFD said: Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.
-----------
HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!
White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirt
I think you would be surprised at the number of voters - working class or otherwise - who have absolutely no idea who Emily Thornberry is. If she did become labour leader and the Tories were still presiding over creaking public services and stagnating living standards come the next election, no-one is going to care about a Tweet she sent many years before.
I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.
HYUFD said: Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.
-----------
HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!
White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirt
I doubt that man voted Labour TBH. Looks more like a Ukip or BNP supporter but who knows? Would you like to live next to a house like that??
I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.
HYUFD said: Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.
-----------
HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!
White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirt
I doubt that man voted Labour TBH. Looks more like a Ukip or BNP supporter but who knows? Would you like to live next to a house like that??
There is a slim chance he would have voted for Corbyn though he probably voted for UKIP rather than Ed Miliband
Is that the very definition of a Little Englander?
With global warming, the best wine growing regions of France are moving to southern England. Any way the best wines come from New Zealand so tarrifs on their wines will come down.
The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.
I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.
It may be logical but it is also naive.
Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.
It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.
Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.
Unreconciled Remainers have few options.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.
It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.
The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.
I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.
It may be logical but it is also naive.
Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.
It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.
Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.
Unreconciled Remainers have few options.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.
It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.
As I said, not much of a pitch. Complaining if they vote for Labour is among the sillier things that the ardent Brexiters could do, and that's a high bar to vault over.
The city’s police-officers union is cracking down on the number of “get out of jail free” courtesy cards distributed to cops to give to family and friends.
Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association boss Pat Lynch slashed the maximum number of cards that could be issued to current cops from 30 to 20, and to retirees from 20 to 10, sources told The Post.
The cards are often used to wiggle out of minor trouble such as speeding tickets, the theory being that presenting one suggests you know someone in the NYPD.
The rank and file is livid.
“They are treating active members like s–t, and retired members even worse than s–t,” griped an NYPD cop who retired on disability. “All the cops I spoke to were . . . very disappointed they couldn’t hand them out as Christmas gifts.”
A source said Lynch ordered the cutback to stop the sale of the cards, which were being hawked on eBay last week for as much as $200.
I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.
HYUFD said: Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.
-----------
HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!
White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirt
I think you would be surprised at the number of voters - working class or otherwise - who have absolutely no idea who Emily Thornberry is. If she did become labour leader and the Tories were still presiding over creaking public services and stagnating living standards come the next election, no-one is going to care about a Tweet she sent many years before.
Cultural values determine elections nowadays almost as much as economics and a soft left social democrat globalist like Thornberry with contempt for national pride of any kind will not be winning the white working class vote.
If Labour get rid of Corbyn only Blairism would really be a better alternative, certainly not relaunching the leadership and style of Ed Miliband
The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.
I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.
It may be logical but it is also naive.
Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.
It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.
Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.
Unreconciled Remainers have few options.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.
It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.
As I said, not much of a pitch. Complaining if they vote for Labour is among the sillier things that the ardent Brexiters could do, and that's a high bar to vault over.
I'm not complaining, as I said, I don't want them back. The compromises necessary to get them back are not worth it.
The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.
I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.
It may be logical but it is also naive.
Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.
It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.
Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.
Unreconciled Remainers have few options.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.
It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.
I really dislike that kind of characterisation. I think we should accept that people's views on the benefits and drawbacks of EU membership are sincerely held and respect that. It's far to early to say whether Brexit will be a success (and of course, each person's success criteria may well differ). I havered before the referendum, have worried about my vote since and am still riddled with doubt (though I'm far more sanguine than say, last summer).
The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.
I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.
It may be logical but it is also naive.
Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.
It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.
Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.
Unreconciled Remainers have few options.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.
It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.
This is why the Tories will struggle to win an overall majority. Long may it continue.
Yes. It's just curious that otherwise sensible people have voted for a diminution in wealth. Still, no one on a healthy six figure salary should worry about it too much, as you rightly note.
I personally don't bes as close as it was down to the advantages that a government with a seriously capable PM has in a referendum.
As you the EU in a way to our advantage, within the context of being a modern, regional trading bloc.
No, I regard the failure of this government to address the pressing problems of this country as evidence of their ineptitude and incompetence. Are you seriously suggesting having David Davis in charge of something important would make it better?
On your second point the UK has been trying to reform the EU my entire adult life. With the arguable exception of the Single Market (and that really in respect of goods rather than services) we have failed.
Indeed, the EU has probably got WORSE democratically speaking, since we joined, not better, for all our efforts. Turnout in EU elections, for instance, has gone from 61% in 1979 to 43% in 2014, even as this same ridiculous parliament has accrued evermore power.
And Maastricht may have been bad, but what can possibly compare to the EU Constitution which was imposed on us all by an act of outright fraud and deception, by simply renaming it a Treaty, so they could sneak it past voters who had explicitly rejected it in TWO referendums.
The EU is a political nightmare, even as in the middle of this nightmare it is experiencing a modest nocturnal emission, i.e. a small economic boomlet.
We are Better Off Out.
Turnout in the UK in 2014 was 35.6%. That's why so many of those embarrassing loons in UKIP got elected. Too few cared.
I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.
HYUFD said: Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.
-----------
HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!
White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirt
Most white working class voters would run a mile rather than cover their houses in England flags. If you've never actually met any I suggest you drive around a council estate and see how many England flags you see.
The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.
I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.
It may be logical but it is also naive.
Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.
It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.
Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.
Unreconciled Remainers have few options.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.
It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.
This is why the Tories will struggle to win an overall majority. Long may it continue.
No we struggled in 2017 because out leader is crap and she has crap ideas. I said it earlier, Labour are winning f on core issues other than Brexit. Our party has nothing to offer on those issues and that is why we're struggling. We need a new leader with new ideas. Once we've left I expect the party will force May out and one of the 2010/2015 in take will get the go ahead.
I guess nobody told them it's futile. Brexit will arrive in a form unknown. All we need are the right clothes...
Scottie, I have told you more than once that I am not a Brexiteer. I know you don't read most of the stuff you yourself post here, never mind anyone else, but, again: I voted Remain.
I was making a rather simple point about some events being more within our control than others. I cannot be bothered to put the necessary work in to simplify it further, to the point where it is comprehensible by the outwitted-by-a-bus demographic.
Off topic: Is the Times subscription worth it? Am finally considering it.
Their lead travel writer is a journalist by the name Sean Thomas. If that's any help.
Also, quite seriously, yes: it is the best paper as a "proper" newspaper, and their iPad/iPhone apps are now excellent (after being dreadful for years).
However for quick news in the morning I still usually go to the BBC, Guardian, or FT. Or Telegraph for Brexitbait. Then in the evening I will peruse the Times properly, if I'm at home.
Jesus, did I just say "peruse"?
I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.
Yeah: I've read this Thomas fellow. Pretty good, I must say. Is he likely to be travelling to Botswana or Namibia in the near future? Because I'm considering them for a possible trip in the next year or so.
The Telegraph is dreadful. The Mail is good for videos of cute cats making the bed etc and Meghan/Harry stuff. I never look at the BBC. Prospect and Quillette are quite good for lengthier and more thoughtful articles. I daren't look at any more otherwise I would waste my days even more than I do already.......
Not going to Botswana or Namibia. I am off to Mauritius on Friday, and the Seychelles next month, if that's any help. And I came back from China last month, where I think I broke my personal best record for the most expensive room I've been given as a freebie.
I was put, for three nights, in a restored Qing Dynasty fortress villa, with about five beds and a personal heated lap pool, and butler in the pantry. $10,000 a night. Yep. 10k USD. Thus beating the Guggenheim suite in the Gritti which was about €5000 a night, or the Curzon Suite at the Oberoi Taj Mahal which was was $5000 a night.
The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.
I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.
It may be logical but it is also naive.
Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.
It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.
Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.
Unreconciled Remainers have few options.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.
It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.
This is why the Tories will struggle to win an overall majority. Long may it continue.
No we struggled in 2017 because out leader is crap and she has crap ideas. I said it earlier, Labour are winning f on core issues other than Brexit. Our party has nothing to offer on those issues and that is why we're struggling. We need a new leader with new ideas. Once we've left I expect the party will force May out and one of the 2010/2015 in take will get the go ahead.
Nope, the language of traitors and betrayal is divisive and off-putting for non-believers.
The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.
I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.
It may be logical but it is also naive.
Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.
It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.
Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.
Unreconciled Remainers have few options.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.
It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.
This is why the Tories will struggle to win an overall majority. Long may it continue.
No we struggled in 2017 because out leader is crap and she has crap ideas. I said it earlier, Labour are winning f on core issues other than Brexit. Our party has nothing to offer on those issues and that is why we're struggling. We need a new leader with new ideas. Once we've left I expect the party will force May out and one of the 2010/2015 in take will get the go ahead.
Nope, the language of traitors and betrayal is divisive and off-putting for non-believers.
Nope, the language of traitors and betrayal is divisive and off-putting for non-believers.
It's not language, it's just the truth. Those Tories who turned their backs on the party because we're doing what the people told us to do are traitors. There is no other word for it.
If May wasn't so rubbish and her policies weren't awful we would have won a handy majority in 2017, but the dementia tax and her dodging the debates put and end to all of that. A good solid Tory manifesto of tax cuts for the middle classes, benefit cuts for the lazy, £350m per week for the NHS by 2022 (on the side of a bus) and tax cuts for business would have seen us well over the line but instead she decided it would be a good idea to target people with dementia for more money.
I disagree. You are again presenting your own opinion as fact, your MO. *I think* Thornberry would be one of the few candidates to unify both wings of the party while luring soft-right Remain Tories on board.
HYUFD said: Thornberry would fail to win over virtually any of the current Tory voters who voted for Blair then switched to Cameron and stuck with May Labour need for a majority, nor would she inspire left-wing voter turnout behind Labour as much as Corbyn while she also has less appeal to the white working class than Corbyn does, see her St George's flag comments.
-----------
HYUFD makes me LOL, the way he presents his own opinion as fact, every time. What St George's flag comments? She made no comment. And, in any case, who would want to live next to house covered top to tail in England flags? So many hypocrites out there attacking Thornberry while secretly thinking "that bloke is a mug". Hypocrites!!
White working class voters may not be great fans of Corbyn but at least he did not show the contempt for their values or Leave vote Thornberry did. As I said, she is Ed Miliband in a skirt
I think you would be surprised at the number of voters - working class or otherwise - who have absolutely no idea who Emily Thornberry is. If she did become labour leader and the Tories were still presiding over creaking public services and stagnating living standards come the next election, no-one is going to care about a Tweet she sent many years before.
Cultural values determine elections nowadays almost as much as economics and a soft left social democrat globalist like Thornberry with contempt for national pride of any kind will not be winning the white working class vote.
If Labour get rid of Corbyn only Blairism would really be a better alternative, certainly not relaunching the leadership and style of Ed Miliband
Cultural values are linked to economic outcomes. The flag will get the Tories so far, but crumbling public services and stagnating living standards will do for them if they are not addressed. In our FPTP system not being on the far left would be enough to see Thornberry home, especially as she is fluent and credible enough to come up with some form of words on her Tweet for the very small number who do remember it. However, this is all academic as Jeremy Corbyn will almost certainly be Labour leader at the next election.
The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.
I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.
It may be logical but it is also naive.
Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.
It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.
Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.
Unreconciled Remainers have few options.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.
It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.
I really dislike that kind of characterisation. I think we should accept that people's views on the benefits and drawbacks of EU membership are sincerely held and respect that. It's far to early to say whether Brexit will be a success (and of course, each person's success criteria may well differ). I havered before the referendum, have worried about my vote since and am still riddled with doubt (though I'm far more sanguine than say, last summer).
I'm talking specifically of Tories who turned their back on the party because the leadership decided to implement the result of the referendum. They betrayed our party and then by voting for Corbyn they betrayed our country. It's not a huge group of people but those 11 useful idiots in Parliament are among them.
The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.
I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.
It may be logical but it is also naive.
Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.
It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.
Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.
Unreconciled Remainers have few options.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.
It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.
This is why the Tories will struggle to win an overall majority. Long may it continue.
No we struggled in 2017 because out leader is crap and she has crap ideas. I said it earlier, Labour are winning f on core issues other than Brexit. Our party has nothing to offer on those issues and that is why we're struggling. We need a new leader with new ideas. Once we've left I expect the party will force May out and one of the 2010/2015 in take will get the go ahead.
Are you one of those neobrexiteers like HYUFD and Carlotta?
The worst part about the traitors is that they don't realise it, but eventually they will have that moment when they are surrounded by celebratory Corbyn supporters and realise "these are not my people, what have I done". Hopefully it won't be too late for the country.
The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.
I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.
It may be logical but it is also naive.
Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.
It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.
Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.
Unreconciled Remainers have few options.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.
It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.
This is why the Tories will struggle to win an overall majority. Long may it continue.
No we struggled in 2017 because out leader is crap and she has crap ideas. I said it earlier, Labour are winning f on core issues other than Brexit. Our party has nothing to offer on those issues and that is why we're struggling. We need a new leader with new ideas. Once we've left I expect the party will force May out and one of the 2010/2015 in take will get the go ahead.
Are you one of those neobrexiteers like HYUFD and Carlotta?
The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.
I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.
It may be logical but it is also naive.
Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.
It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.
Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.
Unreconciled Remainers have few options.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.
It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.
I really dislike that kind of characterisation. I think we should accept that people's views on the benefits and drawbacks of EU membership are sincerely held and respect that. It's far to early to say whether Brexit will be a success (and of course, each person's success criteria may well differ). I havered before the referendum, have worried about my vote since and am still riddled with doubt (though I'm far more sanguine than say, last summer).
I'm talking specifically of Tories who turned their back on the party because the leadership decided to implement the result of the referendum. They betrayed our party and then by voting for Corbyn they betrayed our country. It's not a huge group of people but those 11 useful idiots in Parliament are among them.
So MPs that do not follow the government line on Brexit are traitors? That's what Jo Cox's assassin called her, isn't it?
The Brexit cultists can't understand that many regard Brexit as being at least as damaging to the country as anything Jeremy Corbyn might do.
I disagree with OGH: it is logical for the most unreconciled Remainers to hope that Labour, the main party whose base is most sympathetic to them, returns to power and to hope that the leadership is then dragged EUwards in office.
It may be logical but it is also naive.
Everything that Corbyn has done since the election shows that he has no intention of staying in the Single Market or Customs Union. I do not see on what basis people think that he will be dragged EUwards were he in office.
It's delusion: they see what they want to see, because they really, really want to see it.
Indeed, it's not impossible that Corbyn could take the UK *further* out of the EU, in order to implement policies that discriminate in favour of British firms, if May ends up being forced into a very soft Brexit by the logic of the Irish border.
Unreconciled Remainers have few options.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.
It's not offensive if it's true. They just need to come to terms with their betrayal of our party and country. At least if they admit it I wouldn't mind having them back.
I really dislike that kind of characterisation. I think we should accept that people's views on the benefits and drawbacks of EU membership are sincerely held and respect that. It's far to early to say whether Brexit will be a success (and of course, each person's success criteria may well differ). I havered before the referendum, have worried about my vote since and am still riddled with doubt (though I'm far more sanguine than say, last summer).
I'm talking specifically of Tories who turned their back on the party because the leadership decided to implement the result of the referendum. They betrayed our party and then by voting for Corbyn they betrayed our country. It's not a huge group of people but those 11 useful idiots in Parliament are among them.
So MPs that do not follow the government line on Brexit are traitors? That's what Jo Cox's assassin called her, isn't it?
It's a step beyond that. Erstwhile Conservative voters who do not follow the government line on Brexit are traitors.
Nope, the language of traitors and betrayal is divisive and off-putting for non-believers.
It's not language, it's just the truth. Those Tories who turned their backs on the party because we're doing what the people told us to do are traitors. There is no other word for it.
If May wasn't so rubbish and her policies weren't awful we would have won a handy majority in 2017, but the dementia tax and her dodging the debates put and end to all of that. A good solid Tory manifesto of tax cuts for the middle classes, benefit cuts for the lazy, £350m per week for the NHS by 2022 (on the side of a bus) and tax cuts for business would have seen us well over the line but instead she decided it would be a good idea to target people with dementia for more money.
People who do not agree with Tory policy are not obliged to vote for the Tories. That is not treachery, it is democracy.
Comments
Even you must realise this, but you seem to still be clinging religiously to the ridiculous belief that Brexit is the ONLY thing she won't fuck up.
Bless...
My main reason for thinking about subscription is mainly so that I can link to interesting and relevant articles on it on my website.
Putting scanned copies filched from my local is not quite the done thing.......
I may try the taster version and see what it's like.
What he says, and he was a strong remainer, is that any economic effect of Brexit is likely to be "dwarfed" by a general uplift in world trading conditions so that the UK economy is likely to grow faster in 2018 than currently thought. The loss that he thinks the UK will suffer, 3% over 12 years to 2030, is "neither here nor there". In short the economic disaster that has been continually forecast is cancelled indefinitely.
Given that it will almost certainly be impossible to show any loss (or gain) from Brexit the idea that there is this yawning gap in British politics waiting to be filled is fantasy. The party best placed to fill that gap sits on about 6% and is going precisely nowhere despite the almost complete ineptitude of both of the major parties.
Of course there will still be a tiny minority who think that it is a shame that we are no longer a part of the councils of Europe, or sitting at the top table of our continent or whatever but the idea that there are a material number of votes in this is for the birds. Corbyn doesn't get much right but he is right on this. For this generation at least the question of whether we are in the EU or out of it is decided. Its time to move on to more interesting and important matters.
Nothing has changed. Nothing has changed.
Henry Bolton thinks he's the new Jeremy Corbyn. The irony.
(Not that even a second referendum would save him - if there were such a vote, Farage would be back like a shot).
Bolton doesn't have the finances to wine and dine the UKIP NEC and spokespeople and get their personal support for his leadership even if the party members voted for him.
The Telegraph is dreadful. The Mail is good for videos of cute cats making the bed etc and Meghan/Harry stuff. I never look at the BBC. Prospect and Quillette are quite good for lengthier and more thoughtful articles. I daren't look at any more otherwise I would waste my days even more than I do already.......
Henry Bolton has made himself into a "ludicrous figure", says Neil Hamilton
I did have a subscription to the Times which is excellent but took up too much of my time
Your retirement years safe seat in Surrey awaits.
TMay is dire and depressing. I'd like someone better, but I wouldn't expect them to delivery a vastly different...
...Election result
...conference speech
...reshuffle
...Brexit
Why is Brexit the only one on that list you think wouldn't be any different?
Blind faith is a wonderful thing.
The key point is that once the economic argument is put into perspective why the hell would any sane person want to remain in something as dysfunctional and undemocratic as the EU? I can only put the fact that it was as close as it was down to the advantages that a government with a seriously capable PM has in a referendum.
As a commercial printer we had a record year in 2017 and we hear our competitors have did well too. Our bosses are investing in new kit to prepare for more sales growth this year.
I'm still waiting for the roof to fall in because the news is so negative, but 20 months on from the vote disaster is yet to strike.
Does anyone really think any British government is going to spend money on new customs infrastructure that would act as a visible symbol of the end of frictionless trade with Europe?
So the perspective is the EU is doing better than the Brexiteers claimed.
And that would any sane person want to leave it?
I can have selective taster quotes but there are laws about copying great chunks of copyrighted articles.
What I am totally bored with is those claiming that our industries will be closing down or departing, that our exports will collapse, that our planes will not be able to land, that our legal system will be in more chaos than usual, that those not deeply interested in the politics as you are will even notice. It's just not true.
Is that the very definition of a Little Englander?
It is Corbynite socialism that is keeping June 2017 Tories from switching to Labour not Labour's acceptance of the Brexit vote and most of the Tory marginals Corbyn needs to win for a working majority voted Leave and not Remain.
But putting the key economic argument into perspective is precisely what people who can afford to do so will do. My question remains why we would have voted to incur that diminution.
As to the dysfunctional and undemocratic EU, I am I suppose disappointed at the lack of confidence you display in our country such that you don't think we could not only have stood up to them, but could have shaped the EU in a way to our advantage, within the context of being a modern, regional trading bloc.
To put it another way, the drivers for the world economy right now are China and the US. We will gain from both without even having a trade agreement. Magic!
In terms of Prime Ministerial control, is Brexit more like the weather, or more like the PM's conference speech?
https://nypost.com/2018/01/21/police-union-slashes-number-of-get-out-of-jail-free-cards-issued/
The city’s police-officers union is cracking down on the number of “get out of jail free” courtesy cards distributed to cops to give to family and friends.
Patrolmen’s Benevolent Association boss Pat Lynch slashed the maximum number of cards that could be issued to current cops from 30 to 20, and to retirees from 20 to 10, sources told The Post.
The cards are often used to wiggle out of minor trouble such as speeding tickets, the theory being that presenting one suggests you know someone in the NYPD.
The rank and file is livid.
“They are treating active members like s–t, and retired members even worse than s–t,” griped an NYPD cop who retired on disability. “All the cops I spoke to were . . . very disappointed they couldn’t hand them out as Christmas gifts.”
A source said Lynch ordered the cutback to stop the sale of the cards, which were being hawked on eBay last week for as much as $200.
The PBA and the NYPD declined comment….
On your second point the UK has been trying to reform the EU my entire adult life. With the arguable exception of the Single Market (and that really in respect of goods rather than services) we have failed.
Meanwhile, the Conservative pitch to them consists of: "we hate you, we think you're traitors and imbeciles, now vote for us because the other lot are worse". Labour are at least trying not to actively offend.
With global warming, the best wine growing regions of France are moving to southern England. Any way the best wines come from New Zealand so tarrifs on their wines will come down.
Is that the dumbest thing ever posted by a Brexiteer? ROFLMAO
If Brexit is like the weather, what are we paying all the pols for? We can all just sit back and let it happen. Come home DD, your work is irrelevant.
Meanwhile
https://twitter.com/brexitcentral/status/955480504748388353
I guess nobody told them it's futile. Brexit will arrive in a form unknown. All we need are the right clothes...
If Labour get rid of Corbyn only Blairism would really be a better alternative, certainly not relaunching the leadership and style of Ed Miliband
I was making a rather simple point about some events being more within our control than others. I cannot be bothered to put the necessary work in to simplify it further, to the point where it is comprehensible by the outwitted-by-a-bus demographic.
If May wasn't so rubbish and her policies weren't awful we would have won a handy majority in 2017, but the dementia tax and her dodging the debates put and end to all of that. A good solid Tory manifesto of tax cuts for the middle classes, benefit cuts for the lazy, £350m per week for the NHS by 2022 (on the side of a bus) and tax cuts for business would have seen us well over the line but instead she decided it would be a good idea to target people with dementia for more money.
Tell us how you would simplify "Brexit is like the weather" to make it more comprehensible.
Give us all a laugh...
I voted to leave, if that's what you're asking.
And they all got more expensive after the Brexit vote. If you buy them, they cost more...
The demographic that were outwitted by a bus were those who voted leave in expectation of £350m a week for the NHS.
I am not one of those...