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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Until leave’s referendum expenses issues are sorted opponents

SystemSystem Posts: 11,005
edited March 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Until leave’s referendum expenses issues are sorted opponents will be able to cast doubt over Brexit’s legitimacy

The overnight news that the government have refused the Electoral Commission’s desire for the sources of the DUP’s pre 2017 donations to be revealed will only add to speculation that something is amiss. What was the source of the £425k that TMay’s “supply & confidence” partners were given ahead of the referendum?

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,268
    Absolutely.

    What have they got to hide?

    Is it Putin’s money?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,268
    Time for an appeal to the CJEU.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,268
    Parliament should take back control and overturn this pernicious decision by Mrs May.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,838
    Don’t feed the trolls.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    As Ian Paisley Jr once said (Courtesy of Hansard) No Surrender
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    Remainer wishful thinking. Yawn.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    For the sake of balance, the first leaflet I remember having was definitely a Gov't one asking me to back... remain.

    Since I'm often of a contrarian mindset it almost pushed me to leave...
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    F1: heard something odd today, that this second test is the last ahead of the season. Yet the BBC schedule has a third: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/42263885

    Anyway, we'll see.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,318
    I doubt if this will change many minds in itself, though if substantial offences were committed it would of course tarnish everyone involved. I think we Remainers need to avoid a sort of Dolchstoss Legende building up in which we say the result was essentially illegitimate - we need to work on the basis that Leave won that one and work to limit the damage and maximise the chance of second thoughts or a later return. (The suggestion that this is in some way undemocratic is also piffle, of course.)

    O/T: My local sandwich cafe were ruminating on the Russian attack. The alleged umbrella murderer used to be a customer of theirs - "he always seemed very pleasant". They are eyeing their other customers a bit nervously.
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Oh dear. Still, where there's life there's hope.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,268
    Do we think Le Pen was behind the donation?

    It must be a truly evil Brexiteer who donated it.

    Must be the reason why Mrs May hates democracy with her action here.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,838
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    F1: heard something odd today, that this second test is the last ahead of the season. Yet the BBC schedule has a third: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/42263885

    Anyway, we'll see.

    The third test is in July and August. There are only the two pre-season tests, a week from now we’ll be on the eve of the Aussie GP practice sessions.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,916
    edited March 2018
    OK, lets assume for the moment that the EC finds that the Leave campaoign drove a coach and horses through the rules. I’m not saying it did, but if
    What happens?
    Is the result overturned? The referendum run again? Johnson, Gove and Farage up befote the beak?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,268
    OldKingCole said:

    OK, lets assume for the moment that the EC finds that the Leave campaoign drove a coach and horses through the rules. I’m not saying it did, but if
    What happens?
    Is the result overturned? The referendum run again? Johnson, Gove and Farage up befote the beak?

    They’ll be taken to Traitors’ Gate if there’s any justice.

    Just imagine if Robert Mueller indicts Nigel Farage.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789

    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-donations/details-of-major-campaign-spending-during-eu-referendum-published-by-electoral-commission

    In total, Remain outspent Leave by £5m, and the government also distributed its own leaflet in favour of Remain, so they can't really claim that money bought the outcome for Leave.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Mr. Sandpit, ah, cheers. I misread it (identical circuit but in May not March). On the plus side, I'll write the final pre-season ramble earlier than anticipated.
  • Options
    Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited March 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    For the sake of balance, the first leaflet I remember having was definitely a Gov't one asking me to back... remain.

    Since I'm often of a contrarian mindset it almost pushed me to leave...

    I think that government booklet early on in the campaign really rubbed people up the wrong way.

    I still think a more emotionally-intelligent Remain campaign could've won the referendum, even with all other things being equal. But the government took the wrong lessons from the Scottish referendum and the 2015 election - ignoring that, in the former case, "Project Fear" shrank away a once huge lead into almost nothing, and in the latter case, that 37% was a rather unimpressive General Election score historically, and well short of what was needed to win a referendum...
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,578
    If Remain had more money to spend they could have sent every voter a letter containing Sir Stuart Rose's warning that voting Leave would result in wages rising. That might have changed the result.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,838
    Pulpstar said:

    For the sake of balance, the first leaflet I remember having was definitely a Gov't one asking me to back... remain.

    Since I'm often of a contrarian mindset it almost pushed me to leave...

    Yes, in the minds of most Leavers that was the most egregious example of electioneering, and was publically funded.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,916
    Sean_F said:


    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-donations/details-of-major-campaign-spending-during-eu-referendum-published-by-electoral-commission

    In total, Remain outspent Leave by £5m, and the government also distributed its own leaflet in favour of Remain, so they can't really claim that money bought the outcome for Leave.

    It isn’t a question of outspending; it’s whether or not the rules were breached.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789
    SandyRentool said:

    If Remain had more money to spend they could have sent every voter a letter containing Sir Stuart Rose's warning that voting Leave would result in wages rising. That might have changed the result.

    Along with a photo of Bob Geldof giving the V sign to fishermen, and Eddie Izzard in his beret.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,838
    SandyRentool said:

    If Remain had more money to spend they could have sent every voter a letter containing Sir Stuart Rose's warning that voting Leave would result in wages rising. That might have changed the result.

    If Leave had more money to spend they could have sent every voter a letter containing Sir Stuart Rose's warning that voting Leave would result in wages rising. That might have changed the result.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789
    OldKingCole said:

    Sean_F said:


    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-donations/details-of-major-campaign-spending-during-eu-referendum-published-by-electoral-commission

    In total, Remain outspent Leave by £5m, and the government also distributed its own leaflet in favour of Remain, so they can't really claim that money bought the outcome for Leave.

    It isn’t a question of outspending; it’s whether or not the rules were breached.
    In the case of the DUP donation, they were not. It's just that Northern Ireland (wrongly in my view) was not subject to the same rules as the rest of the UK.
  • Options
    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,546
    Danny565 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    For the sake of balance, the first leaflet I remember having was definitely a Gov't one asking me to back... remain.

    Since I'm often of a contrarian mindset it almost pushed me to leave...

    I think that government booklet early on in the campaign really rubbed people up the wrong way.

    I still think a more emotionally-intelligent Remain campaign could've won the referendum, even with all other things being equal. But the government took the wrong lessons from the Scottish referendum and the 2015 election - ignoring that, in the former case, "Project Fear" shrank away a once huge lead into almost nothing, and in the latter case, that 37% was a rather unimpressive General Election score historically, and well short of what was needed to win a referendum...
    Absolutely. There is no way that Remain should have lost - they screwed it up hugely.

    What happens if an MP / council candidate has overspent? If they declare it, is the election null and void or rerun? I'm not sure I have ever seen a test case of this. The Craig Mackinlay issues about where expenditure is allocated is a different matter, I'm talking about simple over-spending (as it may prove a pointer to consequences here.)
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    F1: Wolff reckons Red Bull have made a strategic error by not using the fuel/oil with which the Renault engine was developed.

    Interesting little snippet of information.
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    "As we get closer to March 296th next year those opposed to Brexit are going to be on the lookout for anything that will make it difficult."

    Rather reminiscent of a skit from Parks and Recreation, I think there many people that would be very happy if we were all required to wait until such a day.
  • Options
    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    All very murky

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/peter-geoghegan-adam-ramsay/meet-scottish-tory-behind-425000-dup-brexit-donation
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/971753430678228992
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    Sean_F said:


    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-donations/details-of-major-campaign-spending-during-eu-referendum-published-by-electoral-commission

    In total, Remain outspent Leave by £5m, and the government also distributed its own leaflet in favour of Remain, so they can't really claim that money bought the outcome for Leave.

    You and your facts!

    You're dealing with a religion and people who've got their own way for decades!

    Of course they're upset, as one by one, the straws fall away.....
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,954
    edited March 2018
    I missed the ins and outs of the vote on revealing the source of the DUP's Brexit funding. What well-reasoned, honorable rationale* did the government use to justify not revealing it?


    *duplicitous, greasy bullshit
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,703
    March 296th
    We're never going to Leave ;-)
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Mr. Song, yes, we are. The moment after the eleventy-first of Tricember, we're out.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    NickPalmer said:

    I doubt if this will change many minds in itself, though if substantial offences were committed it would of course tarnish everyone involved. I think we Remainers need to avoid a sort of Dolchstoss Legende building up in which we say the result was essentially illegitimate - we need to work on the basis that Leave won that one and work to limit the damage and maximise the chance of second thoughts or a later return. (The suggestion that this is in some way undemocratic is also piffle, of course.)

    Wise words. But we have a process for deciding to have referendums.

    A party puts it in their manifesto, wins a GE, then holds the referendum.

    For some inexplicable reason some appear to have forgotten this.
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    NickPalmer said:

    I doubt if this will change many minds in itself, though if substantial offences were committed it would of course tarnish everyone involved. I think we Remainers need to avoid a sort of Dolchstoss Legende building up in which we say the result was essentially illegitimate - we need to work on the basis that Leave won that one and work to limit the damage and maximise the chance of second thoughts or a later return. (The suggestion that this is in some way undemocratic is also piffle, of course.)

    O/T: My local sandwich cafe were ruminating on the Russian attack. The alleged umbrella murderer used to be a customer of theirs - "he always seemed very pleasant". They are eyeing their other customers a bit nervously.

    Both sides were moral equals, in my view.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    Evereything's going so well.....

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgoen/status/971488324278996993
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    nielh said:

    NickPalmer said:

    I doubt if this will change many minds in itself, though if substantial offences were committed it would of course tarnish everyone involved. I think we Remainers need to avoid a sort of Dolchstoss Legende building up in which we say the result was essentially illegitimate - we need to work on the basis that Leave won that one and work to limit the damage and maximise the chance of second thoughts or a later return. (The suggestion that this is in some way undemocratic is also piffle, of course.)

    O/T: My local sandwich cafe were ruminating on the Russian attack. The alleged umbrella murderer used to be a customer of theirs - "he always seemed very pleasant". They are eyeing their other customers a bit nervously.

    Both sides were moral equals, in my view.
    Or as Doctor Johnson observed, 'there is little point to settling the precedence between a louse and a flea'.....
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,954
    CarlottaVance said:

    Evereything's going so well.....

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgoen/status/971488324278996993

    Parody expat Yoon reposts parody account tweeting about parody news prog.
    Marvellous stuff.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    Theuniondivvie said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Evereything's going so well.....

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgoen/status/971488324278996993

    Parody expat Yoon reposts parody account tweeting about parody news prog.
    Marvellous stuff.
    That famous Nat sense of humour on display again.....

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/16072971.Curtice__Brexit_has_made_life_tougher_for_Sturgeon_and_SNP/?ref=twtrec
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,011
    Theuniondivvie said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Evereything's going so well.....

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgoen/status/971488324278996993

    Parody expat Yoon reposts parody account tweeting about parody news prog.
    Marvellous stuff.
    Carlotta is a parody? That explains why she thought Bertie Ahern was the Irish PM at the time of Brexit before correcting it to “Edna” Kenny.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,703
    Tissue_Price said:

    https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/971753430678228992

    Meanwhile in a current real election:
    Republicans trash their candidate in Pa. special election
    The GOP is bracing for an embarrassing defeat next week in a district Donald Trump won by 20 points.
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/07/republicans-pennsylvania-special-election-445221
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,916
    calum said:

    All very murky

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/peter-geoghegan-adam-ramsay/meet-scottish-tory-behind-425000-dup-brexit-donation

    N Irish politics are somewhere where carefull trreading is essential, and where some very odd 'co-incidences' occur.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,333
    Have we still had enough of experts... ?
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/07/trump-tariffs-push-444384
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited March 2018
    CarlottaVance said:

    Evereything's going so well.....

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgoen/status/971488324278996993

    Is that you posting the spoof account? Again?
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Tissue_Price said:

    https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/971753430678228992

    All unsurprising results.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,954
    williamglenn said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Evereything's going so well.....

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgoen/status/971488324278996993

    Parody expat Yoon reposts parody account tweeting about parody news prog.
    Marvellous stuff.
    Carlotta is a parody? That explains why she thought Bertie Ahern was the Irish PM at the time of Brexit before correcting it to “Edna” Kenny.
    Some would say that a Maybot loyalist who generously dispenses their Tory and Union and Brexit supporting wisdom while living abroad has to be a satirical construct, I couldn't possible comment.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Mr. Divvie, many of us who are not pro-independence defended the right of Sven Dicksson [whom I hope returns someday] to prognosticate on such matters despite not living there...
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    edited March 2018
    More 'Union Jackery'.....

    The National will continue to expose Union Jackery....

    http://thenational.scot/news/16071619.___Union_Jackery____accusations_hit_renowned_Scottish_whisky_firm/
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Alistair said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/971753430678228992

    All unsurprising results.
    They are, but Republican Majority is available for a grand at 1.55 (as ever, DYOR). The Democrats could well take the House and go backwards in the Senate.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,954
    edited March 2018
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Divvie, many of us who are not pro-independence defended the right of Sven Dicksson [whom I hope returns someday] to prognosticate on such matters despite not living there...

    Since you were and are happy to prognosticate on matters Scottish, you would have to be a massive hypocrite not to defend that right.

    In any case, the 'right' to comment on stuff doesn't save one from having the piss ripped.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    Theuniondivvie said:

    williamglenn said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Evereything's going so well.....

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgoen/status/971488324278996993

    Parody expat Yoon reposts parody account tweeting about parody news prog.
    Marvellous stuff.
    Carlotta is a parody? That explains why she thought Bertie Ahern was the Irish PM at the time of Brexit before correcting it to “Edna” Kenny.
    Some would say that a Maybot loyalist who generously dispenses their Tory and Union and Brexit supporting wisdom while living abroad has to be a satirical construct, I couldn't possible comment.
    Carlotta is an exemplar of how to be a May-supporting Brexitomane with some degree of elegance and wit.

    The ones I detest are those who sit there in their Union Jack boxer shorts, Land of Hope and Glory playing in the background, while shouting at the TV because all the programmes on it are in foreign.
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    Tissue_Price said:

    Alistair said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/971753430678228992

    All unsurprising results.
    They are, but Republican Majority is available for a grand at 1.55 (as ever, DYOR). The Democrats could well take the House and go backwards in the Senate.
    Very difficult to poll a known candidate against "a" GOP. People often match the GOP candidate to their own desires.

    There is quite an active selection battle in Arizona for example between factions within the Republicans.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,954
    TOPPING said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    williamglenn said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Evereything's going so well.....

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgoen/status/971488324278996993

    Parody expat Yoon reposts parody account tweeting about parody news prog.
    Marvellous stuff.
    Carlotta is a parody? That explains why she thought Bertie Ahern was the Irish PM at the time of Brexit before correcting it to “Edna” Kenny.
    Some would say that a Maybot loyalist who generously dispenses their Tory and Union and Brexit supporting wisdom while living abroad has to be a satirical construct, I couldn't possible comment.
    Carlotta is an exemplar of how to be a May-supporting Brexitomane with some degree of elegance and wit.

    The ones I detest are those who sit there in their Union Jack boxer shorts, Land of Hope and Glory playing in the background, while shouting at the TV because all the programmes on it are in foreign.
    A tad harsh on HUYFD..
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Mr. Divvie, hypocrisy doesn't stop many people doing many things ;)
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Time to rebrand this site - it's no longer about betting.

    More a morgue for the European dream.

  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    TOPPING said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    williamglenn said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Evereything's going so well.....

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgoen/status/971488324278996993

    Parody expat Yoon reposts parody account tweeting about parody news prog.
    Marvellous stuff.
    Carlotta is a parody? That explains why she thought Bertie Ahern was the Irish PM at the time of Brexit before correcting it to “Edna” Kenny.
    Some would say that a Maybot loyalist who generously dispenses their Tory and Union and Brexit supporting wisdom while living abroad has to be a satirical construct, I couldn't possible comment.
    The ones I detest are those who sit there in their Union Jack boxer shorts, Land of Hope and Glory playing in the background, while shouting at the TV because all the programmes on it are in foreign.
    Name names .
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123
    I'm feeling a bit tired so I want to make sure I have got this right. Is it being suggested that someone unknown funnelled £425K to the DUP so that they could campaign against Brexit and the person who did this happened to be a Conservative?

    Because, and correct me if I have this wrong, the Conservatives, led by DC and GO, were actually for remain and quite happy to use large quantities of taxpayers money to fund the campaign, as well as misusing the Civil Service, particularly the Treasury, to produce "information" during the campaign. It therefore seems somewhat unlikely that the same party was trying to give the DUP a bung to campaign against its declared policy.

    I am really not sure what this has to do with the Tories as a party or the government or why or how they were involved either at the time or now.

    Looking at the European referendum Act 2015 the question of permitted expenses is dealt with in Schedule 1, paragraph 25, by reference to the Political Parties, Elections and referendums Act 2000, schedule 14. These provisions entitle a permitted participant to spend up to £5m. It is not immediately obvious how that accords with both sides spending approximately £16m on the campaign but the more important point for present purposes is that, unlike the case of a Westminster election, there is no provision for the result being invalidated by overspending.

    It is of course possible that individuals who were responsible for monitoring spending on each side might have committed offences if they have made false declarations (although if the time limits are the same as for Westminster elections they better get a shift on) but the result stands (unless I have missed something, being very tired and all).
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    I haven't been following this - but if a Tory leader had been a member of such a group, what would Labour have said?

    https://www.thejc.com/comment/comment/my-jeremy-corbyn-dilemma-1.460305

    https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/jeremy-corbyn/news/93427/labour-group-calls-jeremy-corbyn

    By their friends yea shall know them.....
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    CarlottaVance said:

    Sean_F said:


    https://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/journalist/electoral-commission-media-centre/news-releases-donations/details-of-major-campaign-spending-during-eu-referendum-published-by-electoral-commission

    In total, Remain outspent Leave by £5m, and the government also distributed its own leaflet in favour of Remain, so they can't really claim that money bought the outcome for Leave.

    You and your facts!

    You're dealing with a religion and people who've got their own way for decades!

    Of course they're upset, as one by one, the straws fall away.....
    Very well put.
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    Alistair said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/971753430678228992

    All unsurprising results.
    They are, but Republican Majority is available for a grand at 1.55 (as ever, DYOR). The Democrats could well take the House and go backwards in the Senate.
    Very difficult to poll a known candidate against "a" GOP. People often match the GOP candidate to their own desires.

    There is quite an active selection battle in Arizona for example between factions within the Republicans.
    Yes, a named candidate will have negatives. But the Senate map is so bad for Democrats, partly because it's those elected on Obama's 2012 coat-tails and partly because Trump is polarising the electorate, even while he is in aggregate unpopular.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Miss Vance, I'm sure it's a kind and gentle group.

    Mr. Flashman (deceased), won't be long until the F1 season starts. And then, tips galore [although I suspect the most profitable one might be not to follow the rest :p ].
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited March 2018
    TOPPING said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    williamglenn said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Evereything's going so well.....

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgoen/status/971488324278996993

    Parody expat Yoon reposts parody account tweeting about parody news prog.
    Marvellous stuff.
    Carlotta is a parody? That explains why she thought Bertie Ahern was the Irish PM at the time of Brexit before correcting it to “Edna” Kenny.
    Some would say that a Maybot loyalist who generously dispenses their Tory and Union and Brexit supporting wisdom while living abroad has to be a satirical construct, I couldn't possible comment.
    Carlotta is an exemplar of how to be a May-supporting Brexitomane with some degree of elegance and wit.

    The ones I detest are those who sit there in their Union Jack boxer shorts, Land of Hope and Glory playing in the background, while shouting at the TV because all the programmes on it are in foreign.
    *guilty start*

    *turns TV off*
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    Tissue_Price said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    Alistair said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/971753430678228992

    All unsurprising results.
    They are, but Republican Majority is available for a grand at 1.55 (as ever, DYOR). The Democrats could well take the House and go backwards in the Senate.
    Very difficult to poll a known candidate against "a" GOP. People often match the GOP candidate to their own desires.

    There is quite an active selection battle in Arizona for example between factions within the Republicans.
    Yes, a named candidate will have negatives. But the Senate map is so bad for Democrats, partly because it's those elected on Obama's 2012 coat-tails and partly because Trump is polarising the electorate, even while he is in aggregate unpopular.
    I do have several hundred pounds against the Betfair Dems taking control...! Happy to discuss any of the Senate races at some considerable length.
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    Alistair said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/971753430678228992

    All unsurprising results.
    They are, but Republican Majority is available for a grand at 1.55 (as ever, DYOR). The Democrats could well take the House and go backwards in the Senate.
    Very difficult to poll a known candidate against "a" GOP. People often match the GOP candidate to their own desires.

    There is quite an active selection battle in Arizona for example between factions within the Republicans.
    Yes, a named candidate will have negatives. But the Senate map is so bad for Democrats, partly because it's those elected on Obama's 2012 coat-tails and partly because Trump is polarising the electorate, even while he is in aggregate unpopular.
    I do have several hundred pounds against the Betfair Dems taking control...! Happy to discuss any of the Senate races at some considerable length.
    That looks pretty safe - the Betfair rules are even tougher given they won't count King & Sanders as Democrats. I think it would need Trump's ratings to fall off a cliff.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,333
    John_M said:

    TOPPING said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    williamglenn said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Evereything's going so well.....

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgoen/status/971488324278996993

    Parody expat Yoon reposts parody account tweeting about parody news prog.
    Marvellous stuff.
    Carlotta is a parody? That explains why she thought Bertie Ahern was the Irish PM at the time of Brexit before correcting it to “Edna” Kenny.
    Some would say that a Maybot loyalist who generously dispenses their Tory and Union and Brexit supporting wisdom while living abroad has to be a satirical construct, I couldn't possible comment.
    Carlotta is an exemplar of how to be a May-supporting Brexitomane with some degree of elegance and wit.

    The ones I detest are those who sit there in their Union Jack boxer shorts, Land of Hope and Glory playing in the background, while shouting at the TV because all the programmes on it are in foreign.
    *guilty start*

    *turns TV off*
    So long as you keep the boxers on...
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,918
    nielh said:

    NickPalmer said:

    I doubt if this will change many minds in itself, though if substantial offences were committed it would of course tarnish everyone involved. I think we Remainers need to avoid a sort of Dolchstoss Legende building up in which we say the result was essentially illegitimate - we need to work on the basis that Leave won that one and work to limit the damage and maximise the chance of second thoughts or a later return. (The suggestion that this is in some way undemocratic is also piffle, of course.)

    O/T: My local sandwich cafe were ruminating on the Russian attack. The alleged umbrella murderer used to be a customer of theirs - "he always seemed very pleasant". They are eyeing their other customers a bit nervously.

    Both sides were moral equals, in my view.
    I would have thought immoral equals would have been more accurate.
  • Options
    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    DavidL said:

    I'm feeling a bit tired so I want to make sure I have got this right. Is it being suggested that someone unknown funnelled £425K to the DUP so that they could campaign against Brexit and the person who did this happened to be a Conservative?

    Because, and correct me if I have this wrong, the Conservatives, led by DC and GO, were actually for remain and quite happy to use large quantities of taxpayers money to fund the campaign, as well as misusing the Civil Service, particularly the Treasury, to produce "information" during the campaign. It therefore seems somewhat unlikely that the same party was trying to give the DUP a bung to campaign against its declared policy.

    I am really not sure what this has to do with the Tories as a party or the government or why or how they were involved either at the time or now.

    Looking at the European referendum Act 2015 the question of permitted expenses is dealt with in Schedule 1, paragraph 25, by reference to the Political Parties, Elections and referendums Act 2000, schedule 14. These provisions entitle a permitted participant to spend up to £5m. It is not immediately obvious how that accords with both sides spending approximately £16m on the campaign but the more important point for present purposes is that, unlike the case of a Westminster election, there is no provision for the result being invalidated by overspending.

    It is of course possible that individuals who were responsible for monitoring spending on each side might have committed offences if they have made false declarations (although if the time limits are the same as for Westminster elections they better get a shift on) but the result stands (unless I have missed something, being very tired and all).

    Source of funds is undisclosed
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123
    calum said:

    DavidL said:

    I'm feeling a bit tired so I want to make sure I have got this right. Is it being suggested that someone unknown funnelled £425K to the DUP so that they could campaign against Brexit and the person who did this happened to be a Conservative?

    Because, and correct me if I have this wrong, the Conservatives, led by DC and GO, were actually for remain and quite happy to use large quantities of taxpayers money to fund the campaign, as well as misusing the Civil Service, particularly the Treasury, to produce "information" during the campaign. It therefore seems somewhat unlikely that the same party was trying to give the DUP a bung to campaign against its declared policy.

    I am really not sure what this has to do with the Tories as a party or the government or why or how they were involved either at the time or now.

    Looking at the European referendum Act 2015 the question of permitted expenses is dealt with in Schedule 1, paragraph 25, by reference to the Political Parties, Elections and referendums Act 2000, schedule 14. These provisions entitle a permitted participant to spend up to £5m. It is not immediately obvious how that accords with both sides spending approximately £16m on the campaign but the more important point for present purposes is that, unlike the case of a Westminster election, there is no provision for the result being invalidated by overspending.

    It is of course possible that individuals who were responsible for monitoring spending on each side might have committed offences if they have made false declarations (although if the time limits are the same as for Westminster elections they better get a shift on) but the result stands (unless I have missed something, being very tired and all).

    Source of funds is undisclosed
    That's why I said "someone unknown" but its not likely to have been George is it?
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Today's local by-elections for local people:

    Bolton, Farnworth
    Dacorum, Northchurch
    East Hampshire, Petersfield Bell Hill
    Harlow, Little Parndon & Hare Street
    Medway, Rochester West
    Nottingham, Wollaton West
    Rutland, Oakham South East
    Tameside, Droylsden East

    https://britainelects.com/2018/03/07/previews-08-mar-2018/
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/971767396875808769
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/971710098446913541
  • Options
    MTimT2MTimT2 Posts: 48
    Tissue_Price said:

    https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/971753430678228992

    I agree the Senate map is very poor for the Dems.

    But if past experience in US races is anything to go by, we should be very wary of Named Person vs Generic Candidate polls. Generally speaking, my recollection is that once the GOP candidate is named, they perform less well than the generic.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,123
    MTimT2 said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/971753430678228992

    I agree the Senate map is very poor for the Dems.

    But if past experience in US races is anything to go by, we should be very wary of Named Person vs Generic Candidate polls. Generally speaking, my recollection is that once the GOP candidate is named, they perform less well than the generic.
    A point the GOP should really reflect on, especially after Alabama.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Tissue_Price said:

    https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/971767396875808769

    Surely the value is against the Lib Dems there? It's hard to see why the incumbent's star quality should transfer.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Labour has accused the government of prioritising financial services over manufacturing in Brexit trade talks.

    Shadow chancellor John McDonnell said it was clear the government aimed to "win a deal for financial services first and then worry about the rest of the economy later".
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    MTimT2 said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/971753430678228992

    I agree the Senate map is very poor for the Dems.

    But if past experience in US races is anything to go by, we should be very wary of Named Person vs Generic Candidate polls. Generally speaking, my recollection is that once the GOP candidate is named, they perform less well than the generic.
    Agreed, and already noted. But the 8pt GOP lead in Indiana with a named candidate, and the 9 & 13 pt leads in MO/WV look at the very least like these seats should be Lean R rather than Tossup (in the standard media tables).
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    edited March 2018
    John_M said:

    TOPPING said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    williamglenn said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Evereything's going so well.....

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgoen/status/971488324278996993

    Parody expat Yoon reposts parody account tweeting about parody news prog.
    Marvellous stuff.
    Carlotta is a parody? That explains why she thought Bertie Ahern was the Irish PM at the time of Brexit before correcting it to “Edna” Kenny.
    Some would say that a Maybot loyalist who generously dispenses their Tory and Union and Brexit supporting wisdom while living abroad has to be a satirical construct, I couldn't possible comment.
    Carlotta is an exemplar of how to be a May-supporting Brexitomane with some degree of elegance and wit.

    The ones I detest are those who sit there in their Union Jack boxer shorts, Land of Hope and Glory playing in the background, while shouting at the TV because all the programmes on it are in foreign.
    *guilty start*

    *turns TV off*
    As far as I'm aware you live in this country. I was talking about those living abroad. Which, amazingly, rules out HYUFD also.
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/jennifermerode/status/971710098446913541

    Wow - it's incredible that people want to leave this amazing club - it's terrific.

  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    nielh said:

    NickPalmer said:

    I doubt if this will change many minds in itself, though if substantial offences were committed it would of course tarnish everyone involved. I think we Remainers need to avoid a sort of Dolchstoss Legende building up in which we say the result was essentially illegitimate - we need to work on the basis that Leave won that one and work to limit the damage and maximise the chance of second thoughts or a later return. (The suggestion that this is in some way undemocratic is also piffle, of course.)

    O/T: My local sandwich cafe were ruminating on the Russian attack. The alleged umbrella murderer used to be a customer of theirs - "he always seemed very pleasant". They are eyeing their other customers a bit nervously.

    Both sides were moral equals, in my view.
    I would have thought immoral equals would have been more accurate.
    I caught up with the immigration Panorama earlier today. Extraordinary how all those people could have been taken in by such simplistic arguments.
  • Options
    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/971767396875808769

    Surely the value is against the Lib Dems there? It's hard to see why the incumbent's star quality should transfer.
    I reckon so too, but I have no on-the-ground knowledge. I know the Conservative candidate slightly as he was our candidate for Doncaster Mayor last year. I believe he is the only person to have stood for the Conservatives in all four constituent nations of the UK!
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,333
    MTimT2 said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    https://twitter.com/PpollingNumbers/status/971753430678228992

    I agree the Senate map is very poor for the Dems.

    But if past experience in US races is anything to go by, we should be very wary of Named Person vs Generic Candidate polls. Generally speaking, my recollection is that once the GOP candidate is named, they perform less well than the generic.
    Do any generic Republicans exist these days ?
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    TOPPING said:

    John_M said:

    TOPPING said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    williamglenn said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Evereything's going so well.....

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgoen/status/971488324278996993

    Parody expat Yoon reposts parody account tweeting about parody news prog.
    Marvellous stuff.
    Carlotta is a parody? That explains why she thought Bertie Ahern was the Irish PM at the time of Brexit before correcting it to “Edna” Kenny.
    Some would say that a Maybot loyalist who generously dispenses their Tory and Union and Brexit supporting wisdom while living abroad has to be a satirical construct, I couldn't possible comment.
    Carlotta is an exemplar of how to be a May-supporting Brexitomane with some degree of elegance and wit.

    The ones I detest are those who sit there in their Union Jack boxer shorts, Land of Hope and Glory playing in the background, while shouting at the TV because all the programmes on it are in foreign.
    *guilty start*

    *turns TV off*
    As far as I'm aware you live in this country. I was talking about those living abroad. Which also, amazingly, rules out HYUFD also.
    All of us are just people off of the internet and as such not of any interest in and of ourselves, no matter how mad our views.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,557
    TOPPING said:

    John_M said:

    TOPPING said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    williamglenn said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Evereything's going so well.....

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgoen/status/971488324278996993

    Parody expat Yoon reposts parody account tweeting about parody news prog.
    Marvellous stuff.
    Carlotta is a parody? That explains why she thought Bertie Ahern was the Irish PM at the time of Brexit before correcting it to “Edna” Kenny.
    Some would say that a Maybot loyalist who generously dispenses their Tory and Union and Brexit supporting wisdom while living abroad has to be a satirical construct, I couldn't possible comment.
    Carlotta is an exemplar of how to be a May-supporting Brexitomane with some degree of elegance and wit.

    The ones I detest are those who sit there in their Union Jack boxer shorts, Land of Hope and Glory playing in the background, while shouting at the TV because all the programmes on it are in foreign.
    *guilty start*

    *turns TV off*
    As far as I'm aware you live in this country. I was talking about those living abroad. Which also, amazingly, rules out HYUFD also.
    It seems that most of the Brexiteers on here live abroad!
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,209
    AlastairMeeks said:

    TOPPING said:

    John_M said:

    TOPPING said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    williamglenn said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Evereything's going so well.....

    https://twitter.com/NicolaSturgoen/status/971488324278996993

    Parody expat Yoon reposts parody account tweeting about parody news prog.
    Marvellous stuff.
    Carlotta is a parody? That explains why she thought Bertie Ahern was the Irish PM at the time of Brexit before correcting it to “Edna” Kenny.
    Some would say that a Maybot loyalist who generously dispenses their Tory and Union and Brexit supporting wisdom while living abroad has to be a satirical construct, I couldn't possible comment.
    Carlotta is an exemplar of how to be a May-supporting Brexitomane with some degree of elegance and wit.

    The ones I detest are those who sit there in their Union Jack boxer shorts, Land of Hope and Glory playing in the background, while shouting at the TV because all the programmes on it are in foreign.
    *guilty start*

    *turns TV off*
    As far as I'm aware you live in this country. I was talking about those living abroad. Which also, amazingly, rules out HYUFD also.
    All of us are just people off of the internet and as such not of any interest in and of ourselves, no matter how mad our views.
    Nevertheless there is an amusing expat angle to some of our most fervent Brexiters.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,493
    TOPPING said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    nielh said:

    NickPalmer said:

    I doubt if this will change many minds in itself, though if substantial offences were committed it would of course tarnish everyone involved. I think we Remainers need to avoid a sort of Dolchstoss Legende building up in which we say the result was essentially illegitimate - we need to work on the basis that Leave won that one and work to limit the damage and maximise the chance of second thoughts or a later return. (The suggestion that this is in some way undemocratic is also piffle, of course.)

    O/T: My local sandwich cafe were ruminating on the Russian attack. The alleged umbrella murderer used to be a customer of theirs - "he always seemed very pleasant". They are eyeing their other customers a bit nervously.

    Both sides were moral equals, in my view.
    I would have thought immoral equals would have been more accurate.
    I caught up with the immigration Panorama earlier today. Extraordinary how all those people could have been taken in by such simplistic arguments.
    There was an interesting FT article on unintended consequences of populism:

    https://www.ft.com/content/495002da-220f-11e8-9a70-08f715791301

    When people rage against the powers that be, it is useful for those powers to be to blame foreigners or the EU, the next wave is reaction against the rich.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,333
    Remember Blair's project to computerise the NHS, abandoned around 2011 ?
    Looks as though the suppliers found another gullible fool:
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/08/veterans-military-health-system-trump-386232
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,557
    edited March 2018
    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    nielh said:

    NickPalmer said:

    I doubt if this will change many minds in itself, though if substantial offences were committed it would of course tarnish everyone involved. I think we Remainers need to avoid a sort of Dolchstoss Legende building up in which we say the result was essentially illegitimate - we need to work on the basis that Leave won that one and work to limit the damage and maximise the chance of second thoughts or a later return. (The suggestion that this is in some way undemocratic is also piffle, of course.)

    O/T: My local sandwich cafe were ruminating on the Russian attack. The alleged umbrella murderer used to be a customer of theirs - "he always seemed very pleasant". They are eyeing their other customers a bit nervously.

    Both sides were moral equals, in my view.
    I would have thought immoral equals would have been more accurate.
    I caught up with the immigration Panorama earlier today. Extraordinary how all those people could have been taken in by such simplistic arguments.
    There was an interesting FT article on unintended consequences of populism:

    https://www.ft.com/content/495002da-220f-11e8-9a70-08f715791301

    When people rage against the powers that be, it is useful for those powers to be to blame foreigners or the EU, the next wave is reaction against the rich.
    Do you have the title of that FT article Foxy? I can read FT articles if I google the title but if I follow your link I hit the paywall. Cheers :smile:
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,142
    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/971773398161518592
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Meanwhile, in wisdom of the EU news:
    https://twitter.com/TomAntiquates/status/971775047873499136
  • Options
    John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    edited March 2018
    Benpointer said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    nielh said:

    NickPalmer said:

    I doubt if this will change many minds in itself, though if substantial offences were committed it would of course tarnish everyone involved. I think we Remainers need to avoid a sort of Dolchstoss Legende building up in which we say the result was essentially illegitimate - we need to work on the basis that Leave won that one and work to limit the damage and maximise the chance of second thoughts or a later return. (The suggestion that this is in some way undemocratic is also piffle, of course.)

    O/T: My local sandwich cafe were ruminating on the Russian attack. The alleged umbrella murderer used to be a customer of theirs - "he always seemed very pleasant". They are eyeing their other customers a bit nervously.

    Both sides were moral equals, in my view.
    I would have thought immoral equals would have been more accurate.
    I caught up with the immigration Panorama earlier today. Extraordinary how all those people could have been taken in by such simplistic arguments.
    There was an interesting FT article on unintended consequences of populism:

    https://www.ft.com/content/495002da-220f-11e8-9a70-08f715791301

    When people rage against the powers that be, it is useful for those powers to be to blame foreigners or the EU, the next wave is reaction against the rich.
    Do you have the title of that FT article Foxy? I can read FT articles if I google the title but if I follow your link I hit the paywall. Cheers :smile:
    "Brexit Britain may soon be humming John McDonnell’s Marxist tune"
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,142
    Nigelb said:

    Remember Blair's project to computerise the NHS, abandoned around 2011 ?
    Looks as though the suppliers found another gullible fool:
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/03/08/veterans-military-health-system-trump-386232

    Ten, maybe twelve years ago, I went to a talk about how the VA health system was built around open source code. Can't remember the name of the system. I wonder what happened to that initiative?
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,557
    rottenborough said:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/971773398161518592

    As ever, reading the comments on that order-order article is a salutary experience.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,557
    John_M said:

    Benpointer said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    nielh said:

    NickPalmer said:

    I doubt if this will change many minds in itself, though if substantial offences were committed it would of course tarnish everyone involved. I think we Remainers need to avoid a sort of Dolchstoss Legende building up in which we say the result was essentially illegitimate - we need to work on the basis that Leave won that one and work to limit the damage and maximise the chance of second thoughts or a later return. (The suggestion that this is in some way undemocratic is also piffle, of course.)

    O/T: My local sandwich cafe were ruminating on the Russian attack. The alleged umbrella murderer used to be a customer of theirs - "he always seemed very pleasant". They are eyeing their other customers a bit nervously.

    Both sides were moral equals, in my view.
    I would have thought immoral equals would have been more accurate.
    I caught up with the immigration Panorama earlier today. Extraordinary how all those people could have been taken in by such simplistic arguments.
    There was an interesting FT article on unintended consequences of populism:

    https://www.ft.com/content/495002da-220f-11e8-9a70-08f715791301

    When people rage against the powers that be, it is useful for those powers to be to blame foreigners or the EU, the next wave is reaction against the rich.
    Do you have the title of that FT article Foxy? I can read FT articles if I google the title but if I follow your link I hit the paywall. Cheers :smile:
    "Brexit Britain may soon be humming John McDonnell’s Marxist tune"
    Thanks!
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/971767396875808769

    Surely the value is against the Lib Dems there? It's hard to see why the incumbent's star quality should transfer.
    I wouldn't bet at the Ladbrokes odds and I've lost enough money in recent times on Watford elections. But the LD candidate is the current deputy mayor and is relatively well known. I know that the Tories are trying hard there
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,333
    John_M said:

    Benpointer said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    nielh said:

    NickPalmer said:

    I doubt if this will change many minds in itself, though if substantial offences were committed it would of course tarnish everyone involved. I think we Remainers need to avoid a sort of Dolchstoss Legende building up in which we say the result was essentially illegitimate - we need to work on the basis that Leave won that one and work to limit the damage and maximise the chance of second thoughts or a later return. (The suggestion that this is in some way undemocratic is also piffle, of course.)

    O/T: My local sandwich cafe were ruminating on the Russian attack. The alleged umbrella murderer used to be a customer of theirs - "he always seemed very pleasant". They are eyeing their other customers a bit nervously.

    Both sides were moral equals, in my view.
    I would have thought immoral equals would have been more accurate.
    I caught up with the immigration Panorama earlier today. Extraordinary how all those people could have been taken in by such simplistic arguments.
    There was an interesting FT article on unintended consequences of populism:

    https://www.ft.com/content/495002da-220f-11e8-9a70-08f715791301

    When people rage against the powers that be, it is useful for those powers to be to blame foreigners or the EU, the next wave is reaction against the rich.
    Do you have the title of that FT article Foxy? I can read FT articles if I google the title but if I follow your link I hit the paywall. Cheers :smile:
    "Brexit Britain may soon be humming John McDonnell’s Marxist tune"
    Is that the one that Heidi Alexander's ragtime band refused to play ?
  • Options
    RhubarbRhubarb Posts: 359
    edited March 2018
    Benpointer said:

    Foxy said:

    TOPPING said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    nielh said:

    NickPalmer said:

    I doubt if this will change many minds in itself, though if substantial offences were committed it would of course tarnish everyone involved. I think we Remainers need to avoid a sort of Dolchstoss Legende building up in which we say the result was essentially illegitimate - we need to work on the basis that Leave won that one and work to limit the damage and maximise the chance of second thoughts or a later return. (The suggestion that this is in some way undemocratic is also piffle, of course.)

    O/T: My local sandwich cafe were ruminating on the Russian attack. The alleged umbrella murderer used to be a customer of theirs - "he always seemed very pleasant". They are eyeing their other customers a bit nervously.

    Both sides were moral equals, in my view.
    I would have thought immoral equals would have been more accurate.
    I caught up with the immigration Panorama earlier today. Extraordinary how all those people could have been taken in by such simplistic arguments.
    There was an interesting FT article on unintended consequences of populism:

    https://www.ft.com/content/495002da-220f-11e8-9a70-08f715791301

    When people rage against the powers that be, it is useful for those powers to be to blame foreigners or the EU, the next wave is reaction against the rich.
    Do you have the title of that FT article Foxy? I can read FT articles if I google the title but if I follow your link I hit the paywall. Cheers :smile:
    If you google for the article id - in this case '495002da-220f-11e8-9a70-08f715791301' - you can use the google link to get in that way.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,899
    MikeSmithson said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Tissue_Price said:

    https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/971767396875808769

    Surely the value is against the Lib Dems there? It's hard to see why the incumbent's star quality should transfer.
    I wouldn't bet at the Ladbrokes odds and I've lost enough money in recent times on Watford elections. But the LD candidate is the current deputy mayor and is relatively well known. I know that the Tories are trying hard there
    Lib Dems still 4-5 for Sutton council.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited March 2018
    No takers for a seat on Tiverton town council:

    "Election for new Tiverton Town Council is delayed after no valid candidates come forward"
    https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/election-new-tiverton-town-council-1275669
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Apologies if already covered, but some of the details here in this account of Selmayr's ascendancy are jaw-dropping.

    One commissioner who was present at the meeting where Selmayr was promoted later explained to me what happened (he spoke on condition of anonymity, which is in itself telling as he is supposed to be a heavyweight). They were called to a 9.30 a.m. meeting where Juncker presented them with nominations. Selmayr was named not as the Secretary-General, but as the deputy — a post that was known to be vacant. Selmayr’s promotion was unexpected, but Juncker assured them that all was above board.

    Then came the coup de grâce. Having appointed Selmayr as deputy, Juncker announced that the Secretary-General — ltalianer — had resigned. So Selmayr, having been deputy for just a few minutes, would take his place from 1 March. ‘It was totally stunning,’ the commissioner told me. ‘We had witnessed an impeccably prepared and audacious power-grab.’ Before anyone else could find out about this unprecedented double-promotion, an email was sent out summoning journalists to the press conference — where Selmayr was confirmed. A fait accompli.

    https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/a-very-eu-coup-martin-selmayrs-astonishing-power-grab/
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,814
    Benpointer said:

    rottenborough said:

    https://twitter.com/JohnRentoul/status/971773398161518592

    As ever, reading the comments on that order-order article is a salutary experience.
    Even the wording on the article itself displays a jaw-dropping disregard of facts.

    "... the electoral bias to Labour".

    Which, of course, manifests itself in a 13 seat advantage to the Tories on equal vote shares of 42-42.

    What?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/mirrorpolitics/status/971780710821453824
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