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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ladbrokes open market on the battle within LAB for Lewisham Ea

SystemSystem Posts: 6,389
edited May 9 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ladbrokes open market on the battle within LAB for Lewisham East

The @LadPolitics betting on who'll be the LAB candidate in the Lewisham East by-election pic.twitter.com/2WjmQZMgEA

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Comments

  • HenryGMansonHenryGManson Posts: 146
    Lady Phyll is good value at 3/1. Should be evens.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 34,257
    edited May 9
    Scott_P said:
    Alright, Daily Mail, just calm the heck down alright? Maybe at least wait to see if the Commons overturns the Lords defeats first.

    Now the call from reform on the other hand, has obvious merit, even if the sudden motivation behind it for some is very political.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 47,145
    Labour will hold but the Tories should be reasonably confident of holding second place, they kept second in Lewisham East from 1997-2005 when the LDs were rising, only losing it to the LDs in 2010 when the LDs were at their peak before regaining it in 2015 and 2017 once the LD vote collapsed.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 34,257
    So a good result for Labour is retaining a stonking great majority on a low turnout, a good result for the Tories is holding on to second place, and a good result for the LDs is taking second place?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,664
    “traitors in ermine”

    Any Leavers care to comment on that particular quote?
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,179

    Lady Phyll is good value at 3/1. Should be evens.

    There speaks a man who knows his onions.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,827
    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Alright, Daily Mail, just calm the heck down alright? Maybe at least wait to see if the Commons overturns the Lords defeats first.

    Now the call from reform on the other hand, has obvious merit, even if the sudden motivation behind it for some is very political.
    Daily Mail. It’s like Der Sturmer, with horoscopes, a crossword, and photos of celebrities with cellulite.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 15,074
    edited May 9

    “traitors in ermine”

    Any Leavers care to comment on that particular quote?

    Did you not read the ballot paper? Right there alongside leaving the Single Market and Customs Union, improving our productivity, and increasing technical education to prepare the workforce for the challenges ahead, was the abolition of the Lords.

    Do pay attention.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 34,257
    edited May 9

    “traitors in ermine”

    Any Leavers care to comment on that particular quote?

    What would be the point, even if we did you'd pretend we hadn't afterwards, or that it wasn't sufficient, just like the many many other times plenty have commented negatively, nay with condemnation, on headlines like 'crush the saboteurs' - why pretend that you want a response to it at all when you clearly don't, and will react the same way whether comments are made or not? Your opinion has been set and someone could commit seppuku in shame over such a terrible headline, or declare their support for a new nazi party to enact it, and you'd react the same way.

    Similarly, you would take a sensible ignoring of your silly pettiness as proof of your genius insight, and take a response like this to your silly pettiness of your genius insight.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 15,074

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Alright, Daily Mail, just calm the heck down alright? Maybe at least wait to see if the Commons overturns the Lords defeats first.

    Now the call from reform on the other hand, has obvious merit, even if the sudden motivation behind it for some is very political.
    Daily Mail. It’s like Der Sturmer, with horoscopes, a crossword, and photos of celebrities with cellulite.
    You mean wonderful beach bodies.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,827
    kle4 said:

    “traitors in ermine”

    Any Leavers care to comment on that particular quote?

    What would be the point, even if we did you'd pretend we hadn't afterwards, or that it wasn't sufficient, just like the many many other times plenty have commented negatively, nay with condemnation, on headlines like 'crush the saboteurs' - why pretend that you want a response to it at all when you clearly don't, and will react the same way whether comments are made or not? Your opinion has been set and someone could commit seppuku in shame over such a terrible headline, or declare their support for a new nazi party to enact it, and you'd react the same way.
    I think the point is simply that a reckless destruction of our institutions seems baked into Brexit.

    I can’t speak for Mr Meeks, but I for one won’t be happy until our modern-day Frankenstein makers are prostrate on the ground weeping, “What have I done, what have I done?”
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,827
    TOPPING said:

    kle4 said:

    Scott_P said:
    Alright, Daily Mail, just calm the heck down alright? Maybe at least wait to see if the Commons overturns the Lords defeats first.

    Now the call from reform on the other hand, has obvious merit, even if the sudden motivation behind it for some is very political.
    Daily Mail. It’s like Der Sturmer, with horoscopes, a crossword, and photos of celebrities with cellulite.
    You mean wonderful beach bodies.
    Yes. With star columnist (looking archly over a pair of spectacles) Leni Reifenstahl.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,664
    kle4 said:

    “traitors in ermine”

    Any Leavers care to comment on that particular quote?

    What would be the point, even if we did you'd pretend we hadn't afterwards, or that it wasn't sufficient, just like the many many other times plenty have commented negatively, nay with condemnation, on headlines like 'crush the saboteurs' - why pretend that you want a response to it at all when you clearly don't, and will react the same way whether comments are made or not? Your opinion has been set and someone could commit seppuku in shame over such a terrible headline, or declare their support for a new nazi party to enact it, and you'd react the same way.

    Similarly, you would take a sensible ignoring of your silly pettiness as proof of your genius insight, and take a response like this to your silly pettiness of your genius insight.
    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled treacherous is very dangerous. It seems the Mail believes that only opinions that it approves of are permissible. It has constituted itself final arbiter of the permitted range of opinions and unchallengeable interpreter of the Brexit vote.

    Meanwhile, you bleat that I’m beastly in drawing attention to this.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 12,064



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,447

    kle4 said:

    “traitors in ermine”

    Any Leavers care to comment on that particular quote?

    What would be the point, even if we did you'd pretend we hadn't afterwards, or that it wasn't sufficient, just like the many many other times plenty have commented negatively, nay with condemnation, on headlines like 'crush the saboteurs' - why pretend that you want a response to it at all when you clearly don't, and will react the same way whether comments are made or not? Your opinion has been set and someone could commit seppuku in shame over such a terrible headline, or declare their support for a new nazi party to enact it, and you'd react the same way.
    I think the point is simply that a reckless destruction of our institutions seems baked into Brexit.

    I can’t speak for Mr Meeks, but I for one won’t be happy until our modern-day Frankenstein makers are prostrate on the ground weeping, “What have I done, what have I done?”
    As the likes of Brexit, Trump and other populists show it is so much easier to go to the lowest common denominator, destroy...and then what????? Lie and talk bollocks...that's about it...


  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,664
    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 12,064

    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
    I'm just pointing out that at this point it's a bit rich for anyone on the remain or leave side to be taking the moral high ground over insults.

    What about the little gem put about by Sir Vince Cable that all the people who voted to leave the EU were horrible old racists and the sooner they all die off the better?

    Or the idea put around a while back that old people should be deprived the vote because they won't be alive to suffer the consequences, etc.

    Things have got very, very nasty - On BOTH sides.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,252
    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    “traitors in ermine”

    Any Leavers care to comment on that particular quote?

    What would be the point, even if we did you'd pretend we hadn't afterwards, or that it wasn't sufficient, just like the many many other times plenty have commented negatively, nay with condemnation, on headlines like 'crush the saboteurs' - why pretend that you want a response to it at all when you clearly don't, and will react the same way whether comments are made or not? Your opinion has been set and someone could commit seppuku in shame over such a terrible headline, or declare their support for a new nazi party to enact it, and you'd react the same way.
    I think the point is simply that a reckless destruction of our institutions seems baked into Brexit.

    I can’t speak for Mr Meeks, but I for one won’t be happy until our modern-day Frankenstein makers are prostrate on the ground weeping, “What have I done, what have I done?”
    As the likes of Brexit, Trump and other populists show it is so much easier to go to the lowest common denominator, destroy...and then what????? Lie and talk bollocks...that's about it...


    Talking bollocks seems to have worked on North Korea .
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 15,212

    “traitors in ermine”

    Any Leavers care to comment on that particular quote?

    Moronic.

    You don't make laws in haste and you certainly don't make massive constitutional changes just because a chamber doesn't do what you want.


    I don't want a fully elected second chamber because it will simply become a party political shouting chamber just like the Commons. I am not sure what the answer is yet but something where party affiliation was banned would be a good start. Maybe election from a pre determined group representing specific aspects of British life - science, industry, universities, trade unions, military etc. Also review what hey are able to do.

    But don't do it now. Wait until this whole thing is over then come forward with sensible proposals.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,827

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    “traitors in ermine”

    Any Leavers care to comment on that particular quote?

    What would be the point, even if we did you'd pretend we hadn't afterwards, or that it wasn't sufficient, just like the many many other times plenty have commented negatively, nay with condemnation, on headlines like 'crush the saboteurs' - why pretend that you want a response to it at all when you clearly don't, and will react the same way whether comments are made or not? Your opinion has been set and someone could commit seppuku in shame over such a terrible headline, or declare their support for a new nazi party to enact it, and you'd react the same way.
    I think the point is simply that a reckless destruction of our institutions seems baked into Brexit.

    I can’t speak for Mr Meeks, but I for one won’t be happy until our modern-day Frankenstein makers are prostrate on the ground weeping, “What have I done, what have I done?”
    As the likes of Brexit, Trump and other populists show it is so much easier to go to the lowest common denominator, destroy...and then what????? Lie and talk bollocks...that's about it...


    Talking bollocks seems to have worked on North Korea .
    It’s not working for you, though.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,827
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
    I'm just pointing out that at this point it's a bit rich for anyone on the remain or leave side to be taking the moral high ground over insults.

    What about the little gem put about by Sir Vince Cable that all the people who voted to leave the EU were horrible old racists and the sooner they all die off the better?

    Or the idea put around a while back that old people should be deprived the vote because they won't be alive to suffer the consequences, etc.

    Things have got very, very nasty - On BOTH sides.
    The big boy did it and ran away?
    Pathetic.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,664
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
    I'm just pointing out that at this point it's a bit rich for anyone on the remain or leave side to be taking the moral high ground over insults.

    What about the little gem put about by Sir Vince Cable that all the people who voted to leave the EU were horrible old racists and the sooner they all die off the better?

    Or the idea put around a while back that old people should be deprived the vote because they won't be alive to suffer the consequences, etc.

    Things have got very, very nasty - On BOTH sides.
    The Leave campaign was won through xenophobic lies. I appreciate that Leave supporters don’t like that being brought up but it’s hardly an insult, just a fair summary of the evidence.

    Labelling someone a traitor is to label them as acting against their country’s best interests. Far right extremism is a big enough problem already. It doesn’t need a national newspaper fanning that flame still further.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 15,212

    kle4 said:

    “traitors in ermine”

    Any Leavers care to comment on that particular quote?

    What would be the point, even if we did you'd pretend we hadn't afterwards, or that it wasn't sufficient, just like the many many other times plenty have commented negatively, nay with condemnation, on headlines like 'crush the saboteurs' - why pretend that you want a response to it at all when you clearly don't, and will react the same way whether comments are made or not? Your opinion has been set and someone could commit seppuku in shame over such a terrible headline, or declare their support for a new nazi party to enact it, and you'd react the same way.
    I think the point is simply that a reckless destruction of our institutions seems baked into Brexit.

    I can’t speak for Mr Meeks, but I for one won’t be happy until our modern-day Frankenstein makers are prostrate on the ground weeping, “What have I done, what have I done?”
    In which case you are a bigger fool than I took you for.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 15,212

    kle4 said:

    “traitors in ermine”

    Any Leavers care to comment on that particular quote?

    What would be the point, even if we did you'd pretend we hadn't afterwards, or that it wasn't sufficient, just like the many many other times plenty have commented negatively, nay with condemnation, on headlines like 'crush the saboteurs' - why pretend that you want a response to it at all when you clearly don't, and will react the same way whether comments are made or not? Your opinion has been set and someone could commit seppuku in shame over such a terrible headline, or declare their support for a new nazi party to enact it, and you'd react the same way.

    Similarly, you would take a sensible ignoring of your silly pettiness as proof of your genius insight, and take a response like this to your silly pettiness of your genius insight.
    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled treacherous is very dangerous. It seems the Mail believes that only opinions that it approves of are permissible. It has constituted itself final arbiter of the permitted range of opinions and unchallengeable interpreter of the Brexit vote.

    Meanwhile, you bleat that I’m beastly in drawing attention to this.
    And yet you say nothing when TSE uses exactly the same language to refer to Leave supporters. Yet another stunning example of Meeks hypocrisy.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 15,212
    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
    I'm just pointing out that at this point it's a bit rich for anyone on the remain or leave side to be taking the moral high ground over insults.

    What about the little gem put about by Sir Vince Cable that all the people who voted to leave the EU were horrible old racists and the sooner they all die off the better?

    Or the idea put around a while back that old people should be deprived the vote because they won't be alive to suffer the consequences, etc.

    Things have got very, very nasty - On BOTH sides.
    Trying to be reasonable with Meeks and his ilk is a waste of time. They are beyond help in their own little fantasy world. .
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,252

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    “traitors in ermine”

    Any Leavers care to comment on that particular quote?

    What would be the point, even if we did you'd pretend we hadn't afterwards, or that it wasn't sufficient, just like the many many other times plenty have commented negatively, nay with condemnation, on headlines like 'crush the saboteurs' - why pretend that you want a response to it at all when you clearly don't, and will react the same way whether comments are made or not? Your opinion has been set and someone could commit seppuku in shame over such a terrible headline, or declare their support for a new nazi party to enact it, and you'd react the same way.
    I think the point is simply that a reckless destruction of our institutions seems baked into Brexit.

    I can’t speak for Mr Meeks, but I for one won’t be happy until our modern-day Frankenstein makers are prostrate on the ground weeping, “What have I done, what have I done?”
    As the likes of Brexit, Trump and other populists show it is so much easier to go to the lowest common denominator, destroy...and then what????? Lie and talk bollocks...that's about it...


    Talking bollocks seems to have worked on North Korea .
    It’s not working for you, though.
    Not with the likes of you -No but I do have my moments.
  • Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,179
    Just want to point out in favour of the Daily Mail. It has Fred Bassett who, by the way, is clearly no xenophobe as he has canine friends of many colours and types.

    The current lobbing match between the Israelis and the Iranians/Syrians (depends on who you believe) continues this evening. Explosions now heard in Damascus.

    Things are likely to continue for hours at least. Its about the heaviest shooting between the opposing forces in years.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,827

    kle4 said:

    “traitors in ermine”

    Any Leavers care to comment on that particular quote?

    What would be the point, even if we did you'd pretend we hadn't afterwards, or that it wasn't sufficient, just like the many many other times plenty have commented negatively, nay with condemnation, on headlines like 'crush the saboteurs' - why pretend that you want a response to it at all when you clearly don't, and will react the same way whether comments are made or not? Your opinion has been set and someone could commit seppuku in shame over such a terrible headline, or declare their support for a new nazi party to enact it, and you'd react the same way.

    Similarly, you would take a sensible ignoring of your silly pettiness as proof of your genius insight, and take a response like this to your silly pettiness of your genius insight.
    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled treacherous is very dangerous. It seems the Mail believes that only opinions that it approves of are permissible. It has constituted itself final arbiter of the permitted range of opinions and unchallengeable interpreter of the Brexit vote.

    Meanwhile, you bleat that I’m beastly in drawing attention to this.
    And yet you say nothing when TSE uses exactly the same language to refer to Leave supporters. Yet another stunning example of Meeks hypocrisy.
    It does not surprise me that you don’t realise TSE is joking.

    Brexiters have no sense of humour. Yet another reason to wait earnestly for them to die off!
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 12,064

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
    I'm just pointing out that at this point it's a bit rich for anyone on the remain or leave side to be taking the moral high ground over insults.

    What about the little gem put about by Sir Vince Cable that all the people who voted to leave the EU were horrible old racists and the sooner they all die off the better?

    Or the idea put around a while back that old people should be deprived the vote because they won't be alive to suffer the consequences, etc.

    Things have got very, very nasty - On BOTH sides.
    Trying to be reasonable with Meeks and his ilk is a waste of time. They are beyond help in their own little fantasy world. .
    The Mail thinks Remainers are traitors, Ali thinks Leavers are xenophobes.

    We've come a long way since 23rd June...

    Goodnight. :)
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,664

    kle4 said:

    “traitors in ermine”

    Any Leavers care to comment on that particular quote?

    What would be the point, even if we did you'd pretend we hadn't afterwards, or that it wasn't sufficient, just like the many many other times plenty have commented negatively, nay with condemnation, on headlines like 'crush the saboteurs' - why pretend that you want a response to it at all when you clearly don't, and will react the same way whether comments are made or not? Your opinion has been set and someone could commit seppuku in shame over such a terrible headline, or declare their support for a new nazi party to enact it, and you'd react the same way.

    Similarly, you would take a sensible ignoring of your silly pettiness as proof of your genius insight, and take a response like this to your silly pettiness of your genius insight.
    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled treacherous is very dangerous. It seems the Mail believes that only opinions that it approves of are permissible. It has constituted itself final arbiter of the permitted range of opinions and unchallengeable interpreter of the Brexit vote.

    Meanwhile, you bleat that I’m beastly in drawing attention to this.
    And yet you say nothing when TSE uses exactly the same language to refer to Leave supporters. Yet another stunning example of Meeks hypocrisy.
    TSE, at the risk of bruising his ego, is not quite in the same league as the Daily Mail for influence. Nor are there many instances of far centrists plotting to attack Europhobes, where fanning the flames would be irresponsible. I read his comments as tongue-in-cheek attempts to undermine the routine way in which Leavers seek to claim sole ownership of the nation’s interests.

    But to be clear, I dissociate myself from any suggestion that Leavers are traitors and would condemn any serious suggestion to that effect. Leavers are deranged, deluded, far too comfortable with exploiting xenophobia for political gain, they are leading the country on a profoundly damaging course and in many cases they have no real sense of what’s entailed in a pluralist society, but they are not traitors.
  • ArtistArtist Posts: 1,411
    edited May 9
    If it's an all BAME women shortlist, I can't see Kevin getting it.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 15,212

    kle4 said:

    “traitors in ermine”

    Any Leavers care to comment on that particular quote?

    What would be the point, even if we did you'd pretend we hadn't afterwards, or that it wasn't sufficient, just like the many many other times plenty have commented negatively, nay with condemnation, on headlines like 'crush the saboteurs' - why pretend that you want a response to it at all when you clearly don't, and will react the same way whether comments are made or not? Your opinion has been set and someone could commit seppuku in shame over such a terrible headline, or declare their support for a new nazi party to enact it, and you'd react the same way.

    Similarly, you would take a sensible ignoring of your silly pettiness as proof of your genius insight, and take a response like this to your silly pettiness of your genius insight.
    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled treacherous is very dangerous. It seems the Mail believes that only opinions that it approves of are permissible. It has constituted itself final arbiter of the permitted range of opinions and unchallengeable interpreter of the Brexit vote.

    Meanwhile, you bleat that I’m beastly in drawing attention to this.
    And yet you say nothing when TSE uses exactly the same language to refer to Leave supporters. Yet another stunning example of Meeks hypocrisy.
    It does not surprise me that you don’t realise TSE is joking.

    Brexiters have no sense of humour. Yet another reason to wait earnestly for them to die off!
    You will have a very long wait. And you are another hypocrite. When someone from your side says something unacceptable you pretend it is all a joke. When someone from Leave says it you are all up in arms.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 22,501
    edited May 9
    Surely one of the right-wing press barons will turn on Brexit soon. It’s making them look foolish.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 47,145

    Surely one of the right-wing press barons will turn on Brexit soon. It’s making them look foolish.

    The Murdoch owned Times even opposed Brexit before the referendum
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,252

    Surely one of the right-wing press barons will turn on Brexit soon. It’s making them look foolish.

    Maybe Theresa,she turning out to be a damp squib.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 23,474
    The LDs got most votes in Lewisham East just three local election cycles ago.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 3,733
    The Daily Mail should stop pussy footing around. Just start a campaign to install Rees-Mogg as a kind of Lord Protector. It's the logical consequence of what it's been raving about for months.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 1,609
    I think one or two people asked about it so here is the Ed Miliband gif from before but with sound this time.

  • CharlesCharles Posts: 20,747

    “traitors in ermine”

    Any Leavers care to comment on that particular quote?

    Hyperbolic.

    They very rarely wear ermine, and frequently borrow it anyway.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 20,747

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
    I'm just pointing out that at this point it's a bit rich for anyone on the remain or leave side to be taking the moral high ground over insults.

    What about the little gem put about by Sir Vince Cable that all the people who voted to leave the EU were horrible old racists and the sooner they all die off the better?

    Or the idea put around a while back that old people should be deprived the vote because they won't be alive to suffer the consequences, etc.

    Things have got very, very nasty - On BOTH sides.
    The Leave campaign was won through xenophobic lies. I appreciate that Leave supporters don’t like that being brought up but it’s hardly an insult, just a fair summary of the evidence.

    Labelling someone a traitor is to label them as acting against their country’s best interests. Far right extremism is a big enough problem already. It doesn’t need a national newspaper fanning that flame still further.
    Arguably ignoring the result of a referendum - which is the motivation of many of those in the Lords who are manouvering - is against the best interests of the country.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 20,747

    I think one or two people asked about it so here is the Ed Miliband gif from before but with sound this time.

    Very enthusiastic about closing down a free press.

    Worrying mindset.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,280
    Another factor in the failure of the Iran deal:

    The sources familiar with the debate said Trump wanted a separate agreement with the other main signatories of the original deal — France, Britain, Germany, China and Russia. But Berlin said the agreement would have to be submitted to a European Union body for approval, and this appeared to stall the effort, they said.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-iran-nuclear-diplomacy/europe-licks-wounds-as-saudi-arabia-and-israel-hail-trump-on-iran-idUSKBN1IA38C

    Which EU body & why?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,280
    Charles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
    I'm just pointing out that at this point it's a bit rich for anyone on the remain or leave side to be taking the moral high ground over insults.

    What about the little gem put about by Sir Vince Cable that all the people who voted to leave the EU were horrible old racists and the sooner they all die off the better?

    Or the idea put around a while back that old people should be deprived the vote because they won't be alive to suffer the consequences, etc.

    Things have got very, very nasty - On BOTH sides.
    The Leave campaign was won through xenophobic lies. I appreciate that Leave supporters don’t like that being brought up but it’s hardly an insult, just a fair summary of the evidence.

    Labelling someone a traitor is to label them as acting against their country’s best interests. Far right extremism is a big enough problem already. It doesn’t need a national newspaper fanning that flame still further.
    Arguably ignoring the result of a referendum - which is the motivation of many of those in the Lords who are manouvering - is against the best interests of the country.
    That's where I am - Brexit is (probably) a bad idea (but the EU's behaviour in the negotiations is giving me pause for thought) but ignoring or subverting the result of the referendum is a very much worse idea....
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 20,747

    Charles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
    I'm just pointing out that at this point it's a bit rich for anyone on the remain or leave side to be taking the moral high ground over insults.

    What about the little gem put about by Sir Vince Cable that all the people who voted to leave the EU were horrible old racists and the sooner they all die off the better?

    Or the idea put around a while back that old people should be deprived the vote because they won't be alive to suffer the consequences, etc.

    Things have got very, very nasty - On BOTH sides.
    The Leave campaign was won through xenophobic lies. I appreciate that Leave supporters don’t like that being brought up but it’s hardly an insult, just a fair summary of the evidence.

    Labelling someone a traitor is to label them as acting against their country’s best interests. Far right extremism is a big enough problem already. It doesn’t need a national newspaper fanning that flame still further.
    Arguably ignoring the result of a referendum - which is the motivation of many of those in the Lords who are manouvering - is against the best interests of the country.
    That's where I am - Brexit is (probably) a bad idea (but the EU's behaviour in the negotiations is giving me pause for thought) but ignoring or subverting the result of the referendum is a very much worse idea....
    The failure of Cameron's negotiation was key for me. It was clear that the EU had no interest in even attempting to address the UK's valid concerns.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 19,990
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
    I'm just pointing out that at this point it's a bit rich for anyone on the remain or leave side to be taking the moral high ground over insults.

    What about the little gem put about by Sir Vince Cable that all the people who voted to leave the EU were horrible old racists and the sooner they all die off the better?

    Or the idea put around a while back that old people should be deprived the vote because they won't be alive to suffer the consequences, etc.

    Things have got very, very nasty - On BOTH sides.
    The Leave campaign was won through xenophobic lies. I appreciate that Leave supporters don’t like that being brought up but it’s hardly an insult, just a fair summary of the evidence.

    Labelling someone a traitor is to label them as acting against their country’s best interests. Far right extremism is a big enough problem already. It doesn’t need a national newspaper fanning that flame still further.
    Arguably ignoring the result of a referendum - which is the motivation of many of those in the Lords who are manouvering - is against the best interests of the country.
    That's where I am - Brexit is (probably) a bad idea (but the EU's behaviour in the negotiations is giving me pause for thought) but ignoring or subverting the result of the referendum is a very much worse idea....
    The failure of Cameron's negotiation was key for me. It was clear that the EU had no interest in even attempting to address the UK's valid concerns.
    The day Cameron came back from the negotiations was the day that a lot of fence sitters here came out for Leave. Myself included. It showed that the EU as an institution was unreformable.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 11,062
    I see the forum has gone funny again and refuses to allow a login, without going via password reset, like it did last year.

    Remour that the third Thurs in Oct is being earmarked for a GE if the Gvt loses the confidence vote on Brexit?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 11,062
    AndyJS said:

    The LDs got most votes in Lewisham East just three local election cycles ago.

    On the back of years of round-the-calendar campaigning that hasn't been happening since then.

    And LDs used to win by-elections by pulling in activists from across the country and outfighting the other parties on the ground. But in a London seat Labour won't be short of help nowadays.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,425
    The US/China trade war just got very serious:

    http://www.hkexnews.hk/listedco/listconews/sehk/2018/0509/LTN20180509719.pdf

    This will harm a lot of US companies that license to ZTE and will probably lead to a lot of redundancies of Chinese workers. The Chinese will inevitably have to strikeback - politically Xi will have no other option. He will need to prove his hard man credentials.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,425
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
    I'm just pointing out that at this point it's a bit rich for anyone on the remain or leave side to be taking the moral high ground over insults.

    What about the little gem put about by Sir Vince Cable that all the people who voted to leave the EU were horrible old racists and the sooner they all die off the better?

    Or the idea put around a while back that old people should be deprived the vote because they won't be alive to suffer the consequences, etc.

    Things have got very, very nasty - On BOTH sides.
    The Leave campaign was won through xenophobic lies. I appreciate that Leave supporters don’t like that being brought up but it’s hardly an insult, just a fair summary of the evidence.

    Labelling someone a traitor is to label them as acting against their country’s best interests. Far right extremism is a big enough problem already. It doesn’t need a national newspaper fanning that flame still further.
    Arguably ignoring the result of a referendum - which is the motivation of many of those in the Lords who are manouvering - is against the best interests of the country.
    That's where I am - Brexit is (probably) a bad idea (but the EU's behaviour in the negotiations is giving me pause for thought) but ignoring or subverting the result of the referendum is a very much worse idea....
    The failure of Cameron's negotiation was key for me. It was clear that the EU had no interest in even attempting to address the UK's valid concerns.
    The day Cameron came back from the negotiations was the day that a lot of fence sitters here came out for Leave. Myself included. It showed that the EU as an institution was unreformable.

    It showed Cameron was a really crap negotiator.

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,425

    The Daily Mail should stop pussy footing around. Just start a campaign to install Rees-Mogg as a kind of Lord Protector. It's the logical consequence of what it's been raving about for months.

    The Daily Mail is giving every impression of protesting too much. As the reality of Brexit begins to dawn, the Brexiteer search for scapegoats is intensifying. The fact is that what voters were promised is undeliverable. The imperative now is to find people to blame for that. It can be anyone, as long as it is not those who are truly to blame - the ones who never bothered to learn what leaving actually entailed, how complicated and time-consuming it would be and the compromises that would be necessary to make it economically viable.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 13,370
    IanB2 said:

    I see the forum has gone funny again and refuses to allow a login, without going via password reset, like it did last year.

    Remour that the third Thurs in Oct is being earmarked for a GE if the Gvt loses the confidence vote on Brexit?

    You can have a confidence vote, or a brexit vote. Under the FTPA the two cannot be combined - confidence votes have to be separate measures.

    So I would treat that rumour with great caution.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 11,062
    On topic, since Labour is said to be preparing an all-woman shortlist, the odds on the men in the list appear rather short.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 9,472
    Ladbrokes' screenshot in the header has candidates ordered by price, which is standard, of course, but Sakina Sheikh is in the wrong position, which suggests there has been early money for her.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 39,277
    Leave.EU received more than £12m of campaign services from a company controlled by the businessman Arron Banks, despite its referendum spending being capped at £700,000.

    A business associate of Banks said the services were provided prior to the referendum spending cap taking effect in April 2016, and therefore entirely legal.

    But the disclosure, at a time when Electoral Commission investigations into leave campaign financing are continuing, will raise serious concerns about the ease with which laws restricting campaign spending can potentially be circumvented.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/09/arron-banks-company-provided-12m-of-services-to-leaveeu

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 13,370
    IanB2 said:

    On topic, since Labour is said to be preparing an all-woman shortlist, the odds on the men in the list appear rather short.

    Didn't stop Jack Dromey!
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 39,277
    a Govian eco-Brexit doesn’t impress remain voters in Richmond upon Thames, who see it as a green patina only recently formed on the roof of a church whose patron saint is Nigel Farage and whose guiding creeds are social conservatism and reactionary nostalgia.

    Many Tory leavers resent that characterisation. But if they didn’t want their image contaminated by bitter intolerance, they should have been more careful about the company they kept in the referendum campaign, and the racially tinted messages they borrowed.

    There is a mismatch between leave culture, which thrives on heroic simplifications, and leaving in practice, which is a labyrinth of unheroic complications. The deeper into the maze May plunges, the harder it gets for those who campaigned with promises of a swift and easy escape to express sincere satisfaction with the final product. Many Tories will decide that any Brexit is better than none. They will murmur their assent to May’s deal and, once Britain has been bundled out of the EU, agitate for new leadership. They will not reject May’s Brexit, but nor will they rush to own it.

    That is because none of the advertised benefits of leaving the EU will materialise. Leavers will experience total victory in the political battle over EU membership, but without equivalent advances in the culture war.


    https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/08/brexit-deal-mess-leavers-cheerleaders-abandon
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,551
    Is this the same Daily Mail that was cackling gleefully when Clegg’s plan for an elected Lords was torpedoed (quite possibly by the same Tory MPs who are now demanding it be changed?)
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 2,551

    The Daily Mail should stop pussy footing around. Just start a campaign to install Rees-Mogg as a kind of Lord Protector. It's the logical consequence of what it's been raving about for months.

    The Daily Mail is giving every impression of protesting too much. As the reality of Brexit begins to dawn, the Brexiteer search for scapegoats is intensifying. The fact is that what voters were promised is undeliverable. The imperative now is to find people to blame for that. It can be anyone, as long as it is not those who are truly to blame - the ones who never bothered to learn what leaving actually entailed, how complicated and time-consuming it would be and the compromises that would be necessary to make it economically viable.

    Yes - we have definitely reached the reductio as absurdum stage of Brexit
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,991
    IanB2 said:

    I see the forum has gone funny again and refuses to allow a login, without going via password reset, like it did last year.

    Remour that the third Thurs in Oct is being earmarked for a GE if the Gvt loses the confidence vote on Brexit?

    Earmarked by whom?
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    edited May 10
    Scott_P said:
    It's called the salami slicing policy shifts.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 6,391
    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    The LDs got most votes in Lewisham East just three local election cycles ago.

    On the back of years of round-the-calendar campaigning that hasn't been happening since then.

    And LDs used to win by-elections by pulling in activists from across the country and outfighting the other parties on the ground. But in a London seat Labour won't be short of help nowadays.
    Yes, Labour will win. But what an opportunity for the 65% of Remain voters to push Labour in their direction, possibly even to remove Corbyn.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 9,472
    surby said:

    Scott_P said:
    It's called the salami slicing policy shifts.
    Yeah but even if this rather vague statement is correct, so what? Labour's policy will only start to matter if IanB2's rumoured October election is called.
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    AndyJS said:

    The LDs got most votes in Lewisham East just three local election cycles ago.

    The Whigs probably did in the 1850's also.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 6,391
    Charles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
    I'm just pointing out that at this point it's a bit rich for anyone on the remain or leave side to be taking the moral high ground over insults.

    What about the little gem put about by Sir Vince Cable that all the people who voted to leave the EU were horrible old racists and the sooner they all die off the better?

    Or the idea put around a while back that old people should be deprived the vote because they won't be alive to suffer the consequences, etc.

    Things have got very, very nasty - On BOTH sides.
    The Leave campaign was won through xenophobic lies. I appreciate that Leave supporters don’t like that being brought up but it’s hardly an insult, just a fair summary of the evidence.

    Labelling someone a traitor is to label them as acting against their country’s best interests. Far right extremism is a big enough problem already. It doesn’t need a national newspaper fanning that flame still further.
    Arguably ignoring the result of a referendum - which is the motivation of many of those in the Lords who are manouvering - is against the best interests of the country.
    A reminder - the result was close. It didn't mention the Customs Union or Single Market. The Lords votes are not ignoring the result.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 9,418
    Scott_P said:

    Leave.EU received more than £12m of campaign services from a company controlled by the businessman Arron Banks, despite its referendum spending being capped at £700,000.

    A business associate of Banks said the services were provided prior to the referendum spending cap taking effect in April 2016, and therefore entirely legal.

    But the disclosure, at a time when Electoral Commission investigations into leave campaign financing are continuing, will raise serious concerns about the ease with which laws restricting campaign spending can potentially be circumvented.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/09/arron-banks-company-provided-12m-of-services-to-leaveeu

    https://tinyurl.com/yaegxjw8
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227

    tyson said:

    kle4 said:

    “traitors in ermine”

    Any Leavers care to comment on that particular quote?

    What would be the point, even if we did you'd pretend we hadn't afterwards, or that it wasn't sufficient, just like the many many other times plenty have commented negatively, nay with condemnation, on headlines like 'crush the saboteurs' - why pretend that you want a response to it at all when you clearly don't, and will react the same way whether comments are made or not? Your opinion has been set and someone could commit seppuku in shame over such a terrible headline, or declare their support for a new nazi party to enact it, and you'd react the same way.
    I think the point is simply that a reckless destruction of our institutions seems baked into Brexit.

    I can’t speak for Mr Meeks, but I for one won’t be happy until our modern-day Frankenstein makers are prostrate on the ground weeping, “What have I done, what have I done?”
    As the likes of Brexit, Trump and other populists show it is so much easier to go to the lowest common denominator, destroy...and then what????? Lie and talk bollocks...that's about it...


    Talking bollocks seems to have worked on North Korea .
    Let's wait and see. So far Kim has got the South Korean population on his side. Trump is also covering himself every time saying it could work or it may not.

    I think they will agree to a peninsula denuclearisation in years to come. It will suit Kim nicely. He wants a Chinese sort of economy with the Party in command [ himself ]. The living standards will improve very quickly. What's not to like ?

    However, the whole thing came about because Kim showed his warheads could reach the US. Until then, the US was least concerned that Japan could go up in smoke. I don't think Kim would at any time go nuclear first with S Korea.

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 5,106

    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    The LDs got most votes in Lewisham East just three local election cycles ago.

    On the back of years of round-the-calendar campaigning that hasn't been happening since then.

    And LDs used to win by-elections by pulling in activists from across the country and outfighting the other parties on the ground. But in a London seat Labour won't be short of help nowadays.
    Yes, Labour will win. But what an opportunity for the 65% of Remain voters to push Labour in their direction, possibly even to remove Corbyn.
    A joint LD/Green candidate please, as a first step.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,991
    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    The LDs got most votes in Lewisham East just three local election cycles ago.

    On the back of years of round-the-calendar campaigning that hasn't been happening since then.

    And LDs used to win by-elections by pulling in activists from across the country and outfighting the other parties on the ground. But in a London seat Labour won't be short of help nowadays.
    Yes, Labour will win. But what an opportunity for the 65% of Remain voters to push Labour in their direction, possibly even to remove Corbyn.
    A joint LD/Green candidate please, as a first step.
    But I thought labour had peeled away most of the green voters already.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,827
    I’m looking forward to the day the Mail comes out against the Queen for alleged pro-EU sympathies. It’s the logical end point of its slavering nihilism.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 5,106

    The Daily Mail should stop pussy footing around. Just start a campaign to install Rees-Mogg as a kind of Lord Protector. It's the logical consequence of what it's been raving about for months.

    The Daily Mail is giving every impression of protesting too much. As the reality of Brexit begins to dawn, the Brexiteer search for scapegoats is intensifying. The fact is that what voters were promised is undeliverable. The imperative now is to find people to blame for that. It can be anyone, as long as it is not those who are truly to blame - the ones who never bothered to learn what leaving actually entailed, how complicated and time-consuming it would be and the compromises that would be necessary to make it economically viable.

    Stage 4 to 5 of project management:

    https://goo.gl/images/b57Wei
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 9,418
    I see Chelsea lost three PL records last night and Man Utd will likely lose another on Sunday.

    I like this Man City team, they've left our two records in tact!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 45,978
    Good morning, everyone.

    Whilst I agree with Mr. Smithson as to the probable best method for the yellows, I do think they'd stand a better chance without Cable as leader.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 11,062
    philiph said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    The LDs got most votes in Lewisham East just three local election cycles ago.

    On the back of years of round-the-calendar campaigning that hasn't been happening since then.

    And LDs used to win by-elections by pulling in activists from across the country and outfighting the other parties on the ground. But in a London seat Labour won't be short of help nowadays.
    Yes, Labour will win. But what an opportunity for the 65% of Remain voters to push Labour in their direction, possibly even to remove Corbyn.
    A joint LD/Green candidate please, as a first step.
    But I thought labour had peeled away most of the green voters already.
    They got 10% in last week's Lewisham mayoral
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 5,106
    tlg86 said:

    I see Chelsea lost three PL records last night and Man Utd will likely lose another on Sunday.

    I like this Man City team, they've left our two records in tact!

    It was an odd night last night. Our first win against a Wenger side. We last beat Arsenal in the pre Wenger era. We haven't had a League win since January. Playing 10 men helped a bit.

    Leicester fans singing "How crap must you be? we just scored a goal!"



  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,991
    IanB2 said:

    philiph said:

    Foxy said:

    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    The LDs got most votes in Lewisham East just three local election cycles ago.

    On the back of years of round-the-calendar campaigning that hasn't been happening since then.

    And LDs used to win by-elections by pulling in activists from across the country and outfighting the other parties on the ground. But in a London seat Labour won't be short of help nowadays.
    Yes, Labour will win. But what an opportunity for the 65% of Remain voters to push Labour in their direction, possibly even to remove Corbyn.
    A joint LD/Green candidate please, as a first step.
    But I thought labour had peeled away most of the green voters already.
    They got 10% in last week's Lewisham mayoral
    That is enough votes to be worth fighting for
    Is it better to fight for them as a LDem against a green rather than forming ad hoc arrangements and alliances? If you are not careful you risk ending up with a hotchpotch of policies that satisfy nobody.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 2,827
    Scott_P said:
    I’ll believe it when I see it, but if he is, he is acting as predicted by —- moi —- at the beginning the year.

    The objective of course is not to soften Brexit, but to maintain maximum pressure on May.

    If he can get the ERG to depose May, a Corbyn government suddenly becomes possible - maybe even probable.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 9,418
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see Chelsea lost three PL records last night and Man Utd will likely lose another on Sunday.

    I like this Man City team, they've left our two records in tact!

    It was an odd night last night. Our first win against a Wenger side. We last beat Arsenal in the pre Wenger era. We haven't had a League win since January. Playing 10 men helped a bit.

    Leicester fans singing "How crap must you be? we just scored a goal!"

    That was actually one of our better away performances last night. If Arsenal make only one signing this summer, it must be to get Aaron Ramsey to sign a new contract.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 2,433
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
    I'm just pointing out that at this point it's a bit rich for anyone on the remain or leave side to be taking the moral high ground over insults.

    What about the little gem put about by Sir Vince Cable that all the people who voted to leave the EU were horrible old racists and the sooner they all die off the better?

    Or the idea put around a while back that old people should be deprived the vote because they won't be alive to suffer the consequences, etc.

    Things have got very, very nasty - On BOTH sides.
    The Leave campaign was won through xenophobic lies. I appreciate that Leave supporters don’t like that being brought up but it’s hardly an insult, just a fair summary of the evidence.

    Labelling someone a traitor is to label them as acting against their country’s best interests. Far right extremism is a big enough problem already. It doesn’t need a national newspaper fanning that flame still further.
    Arguably ignoring the result of a referendum - which is the motivation of many of those in the Lords who are manouvering - is against the best interests of the country.
    That's where I am - Brexit is (probably) a bad idea (but the EU's behaviour in the negotiations is giving me pause for thought) but ignoring or subverting the result of the referendum is a very much worse idea....
    The failure of Cameron's negotiation was key for me. It was clear that the EU had no interest in even attempting to address the UK's valid concerns.
    What was Cameron asking for again? I am not sure I even knew at the time. The whole thing was obvious theatre to create a narrative to convince his own side. I was surprised the Europeans were as polite about it as they were. Whatever caused Brexit, one thing it certainly isn't is the result of the failure of Cameron's negotiations.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 5,106
    edited May 10
    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see Chelsea lost three PL records last night and Man Utd will likely lose another on Sunday.

    I like this Man City team, they've left our two records in tact!

    It was an odd night last night. Our first win against a Wenger side. We last beat Arsenal in the pre Wenger era. We haven't had a League win since January. Playing 10 men helped a bit.

    Leicester fans singing "How crap must you be? we just scored a goal!"

    That was actually one of our better away performances last night. If Arsenal make only one signing this summer, it must be to get Aaron Ramsey to sign a new contract.
    Patchy though it was, it was Leicester's first decent display since we beat Spurs at the end of last year.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,991

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
    I'm just pointing out that at this point it's a bit rich for anyone on the remain or leave side to be taking the moral high ground over insults.

    What about the little gem put about by Sir Vince Cable that all the people who voted to leave the EU were horrible old racists and the sooner they all die off the better?

    Or the idea put around a while back that old people should be deprived the vote because they won't be alive to suffer the consequences, etc.

    Things have got very, very nasty - On BOTH sides.
    The Leave campaign was won through xenophobic lies. I appreciate that Leave supporters don’t like that being brought up but it’s hardly an insult, just a fair summary of the evidence.

    Labelling someone a traitor is to label them as acting against their country’s best interests. Far right extremism is a big enough problem already. It doesn’t need a national newspaper fanning that flame still further.
    Arguably ignoring the result of a referendum - which is the motivation of many of those in the Lords who are manouvering - is against the best interests of the country.
    That's where I am - Brexit is (probably) a bad idea (but the EU's behaviour in the negotiations is giving me pause for thought) but ignoring or subverting the result of the referendum is a very much worse idea....
    The failure of Cameron's negotiation was key for me. It was clear that the EU had no interest in even attempting to address the UK's valid concerns.
    What was Cameron asking for again? I am not sure I even knew at the time. The whole thing was obvious theatre to create a narrative to convince his own side. I was surprised the Europeans were as polite about it as they were. Whatever caused Brexit, one thing it certainly isn't is the result of the failure of Cameron's negotiations.
    I think Cameron was asking for a squib

    He unfortunately returned with the worse option of a damp squib
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 2,433
    philiph said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
    I'm just pointing out that at this point it's a bit rich for anyone on the remain or leave side to be taking the moral high ground over insults.

    What about the little gem put about by Sir Vince Cable that all the people who voted to leave the EU were horrible old racists and the sooner they all die off the better?

    Or the idea put around a while back that old people should be deprived the vote because they won't be alive to suffer the consequences, etc.

    Things have got very, very nasty - On BOTH sides.
    The Leave campaign was won through xenophobic lies. I appreciate that Leave supporters don’t like that being brought up but it’s hardly an insult, just a fair summary of the evidence.

    Labelling someone a traitor is to label them as acting against their country’s best interests. Far right extremism is a big enough problem already. It doesn’t need a national newspaper fanning that flame still further.
    Arguably ignoring the result of a referendum - which is the motivation of many of those in the Lords who are manouvering - is against the best interests of the country.
    That's where I am - Brexit is (probably) a bad idea (but the EU's behaviour in the negotiations is giving me pause for thought) but ignoring or subverting the result of the referendum is a very much worse idea....
    The failure of Cameron's negotiation was key for me. It was clear that the EU had no interest in even attempting to address the UK's valid concerns.
    What was Cameron asking for again? I am not sure I even knew at the time. The whole thing was obvious theatre to create a narrative to convince his own side. I was surprised the Europeans were as polite about it as they were. Whatever caused Brexit, one thing it certainly isn't is the result of the failure of Cameron's negotiations.
    I think Cameron was asking for a squib

    He unfortunately returned with the worse option of a damp squib
    Mmmmmm. I could use a squib.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 2,991

    philiph said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    GIN1138 said:

    GIN1138 said:



    The way in which honestly held different opinions legitimately expressed have become routinely labelled xenophobic is very dangerous.


    Hmmmmmmmm
    There was never the slightest chance on untold millions of Turks descending on Britain in the foreseeable future. But Vote Leave decided to scare people into believing that. The opinion wasn’t honest, it was not legitimately expressed.
    I'm just pointing out that at this point it's a bit rich for anyone on the remain or leave side to be taking the moral high ground over insults.

    What about the little gem put about by Sir Vince Cable that all the people who voted to leave the EU were horrible old racists and the sooner they all die off the better?

    Or the idea put around a while back that old people should be deprived the vote because they won't be alive to suffer the consequences, etc.

    Things have got very, very nasty - On BOTH sides.
    The Leave campaign was won through xenophobic lies. I appreciate that Leave supporters don’t like that being brought up but it’s hardly an insult, just a fair summary of the evidence.

    Labelling someone a traitor is to label them as acting against their country’s best interests. Far right extremism is a big enough problem already. It doesn’t need a national newspaper fanning that flame still further.
    Arguably ignoring the result of a referendum - which is the motivation of many of those in the Lords who are manouvering - is against the best interests of the country.
    That's where I am - Brexit is (probably) a bad idea (but the EU's behaviour in the negotiations is giving me pause for thought) but ignoring or subverting the result of the referendum is a very much worse idea....
    The failure of Cameron's negotiation was key for me. It was clear that the EU had no interest in even attempting to address the UK's valid concerns.
    What was Cameron asking for again? I am not sure I even knew at the time. The whole thing was obvious theatre to create a narrative to convince his own side. I was surprised the Europeans were as polite about it as they were. Whatever caused Brexit, one thing it certainly isn't is the result of the failure of Cameron's negotiations.
    I think Cameron was asking for a squib

    He unfortunately returned with the worse option of a damp squib
    Mmmmmm. I could use a squib.
    To celebrate something?
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    Scott_P said:

    Leave.EU received more than £12m of campaign services from a company controlled by the businessman Arron Banks, despite its referendum spending being capped at £700,000.

    A business associate of Banks said the services were provided prior to the referendum spending cap taking effect in April 2016, and therefore entirely legal.

    But the disclosure, at a time when Electoral Commission investigations into leave campaign financing are continuing, will raise serious concerns about the ease with which laws restricting campaign spending can potentially be circumvented.


    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/09/arron-banks-company-provided-12m-of-services-to-leaveeu

    The cheek of Remainers to complain about legal but unfair campaign support after the government spent millions on a leaflet to every household...
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,767
    Labour MPs from the North East call for a second referendum on the final deal:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-trade-brexit-north-east-customs-union-single-market-a8343591.html

    Do they really think people in their constituencies have changed their minds on this?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,425
    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see Chelsea lost three PL records last night and Man Utd will likely lose another on Sunday.

    I like this Man City team, they've left our two records in tact!

    It was an odd night last night. Our first win against a Wenger side. We last beat Arsenal in the pre Wenger era. We haven't had a League win since January. Playing 10 men helped a bit.

    Leicester fans singing "How crap must you be? we just scored a goal!"

    That was actually one of our better away performances last night. If Arsenal make only one signing this summer, it must be to get Aaron Ramsey to sign a new contract.
    Patchy though it was, it was Leicester's first decent display since we beat Spurs at the end of last year.

    I have a residual £50 on Leicester to beat Spurs on Sunday, placed as part of my wonderfully doomed Tottenham choke campaign. Having qualified for the CL and with a stack of injuries I am not sure Spurs will be fully involved in Sunday’s game, so I could still come out a long way ahead. If not, it was money well spent!

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 11,062
    rkrkrk said:

    Labour MPs from the North East call for a second referendum on the final deal:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-trade-brexit-north-east-customs-union-single-market-a8343591.html

    Do they really think people in their constituencies have changed their minds on this?

    Did we miss an earlier vote on the shape of the deal?
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    The Daily Mail should stop pussy footing around. Just start a campaign to install Rees-Mogg as a kind of Lord Protector. It's the logical consequence of what it's been raving about for months.

    The Daily Mail is giving every impression of protesting too much. As the reality of Brexit begins to dawn, the Brexiteer search for scapegoats is intensifying. The fact is that what voters were promised is undeliverable. The imperative now is to find people to blame for that. It can be anyone, as long as it is not those who are truly to blame - the ones who never bothered to learn what leaving actually entailed, how complicated and time-consuming it would be and the compromises that would be necessary to make it economically viable.

    Remainers do everything they do to make a Brexit in Name Only, insisting that you only need to leave in name to fulfil the referendum result, then blame Brexiteers for not fulfilling the actual benefits. Of course you can't get the benefits of other trade deals if Remainers win and keep us in the EU customs union.... Remainers own that if it happens.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 21,664
    Elliot said:

    The Daily Mail should stop pussy footing around. Just start a campaign to install Rees-Mogg as a kind of Lord Protector. It's the logical consequence of what it's been raving about for months.

    The Daily Mail is giving every impression of protesting too much. As the reality of Brexit begins to dawn, the Brexiteer search for scapegoats is intensifying. The fact is that what voters were promised is undeliverable. The imperative now is to find people to blame for that. It can be anyone, as long as it is not those who are truly to blame - the ones who never bothered to learn what leaving actually entailed, how complicated and time-consuming it would be and the compromises that would be necessary to make it economically viable.

    Remainers do everything they do to make a Brexit in Name Only, insisting that you only need to leave in name to fulfil the referendum result, then blame Brexiteers for not fulfilling the actual benefits. Of course you can't get the benefits of other trade deals if Remainers win and keep us in the EU customs union.... Remainers own that if it happens.
    The deal on the Customs Union is obvious. What I can't understand is why so much heat is being generated about it now.

    Leavers, through woeful lack of preparation, have no real alternative to offer to continued membership of a customs union for now. So the UK will stay in it on a renewable basis. That will give Leavers the opportunity to work with the Ministry of Magic to find a way to solve the problem in a few years' time.

    Perhaps the heat is being generated because the Leave hierarchy are so furious with themselves for being so incompetent.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 8,632

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    Foxy said:

    tlg86 said:

    I see Chelsea lost three PL records last night and Man Utd will likely lose another on Sunday.

    I like this Man City team, they've left our two records in tact!

    It was an odd night last night. Our first win against a Wenger side. We last beat Arsenal in the pre Wenger era. We haven't had a League win since January. Playing 10 men helped a bit.

    Leicester fans singing "How crap must you be? we just scored a goal!"

    That was actually one of our better away performances last night. If Arsenal make only one signing this summer, it must be to get Aaron Ramsey to sign a new contract.
    Patchy though it was, it was Leicester's first decent display since we beat Spurs at the end of last year.

    I have a residual £50 on Leicester to beat Spurs on Sunday, placed as part of my wonderfully doomed Tottenham choke campaign. Having qualified for the CL and with a stack of injuries I am not sure Spurs will be fully involved in Sunday’s game, so I could still come out a long way ahead. If not, it was money well spent!

    HOORAR - for a few losing bets!!!!!!!!!!

    Top night last night especially when we heard the Chelsea result, big cheers......

    Off to count the number of London teams in the CL for 2018-19...
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 2,870
    rkrkrk said:

    Labour MPs from the North East call for a second referendum on the final deal:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-trade-brexit-north-east-customs-union-single-market-a8343591.html

    Do they really think people in their constituencies have changed their minds on this?

    They obviously think it's the right thing to do regardless of political consequences for them. They should be praised.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,767
    IanB2 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Labour MPs from the North East call for a second referendum on the final deal:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-trade-brexit-north-east-customs-union-single-market-a8343591.html

    Do they really think people in their constituencies have changed their minds on this?

    Did we miss an earlier vote on the shape of the deal?
    I don't really see how you can have a referendum on the shape of the deal.
    Even three options causes problems, unless you can use AV ;)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 45,978
    Mr. rkrkrk, it'll also increase the incentive for those deliberately trying to get us the worst possible deal by maximising the EU influence over the UK without corresponding perks (ie the costs of membership without the advantages).

    Brilliantly, that also means [if it happens] whether we stay *or* leave the subject will remain a bitter source of contention for decades.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 27,425
    Elliot said:

    The Daily Mail should stop pussy footing around. Just start a campaign to install Rees-Mogg as a kind of Lord Protector. It's the logical consequence of what it's been raving about for months.

    The Daily Mail is giving every impression of protesting too much. As the reality of Brexit begins to dawn, the Brexiteer search for scapegoats is intensifying. The fact is that what voters were promised is undeliverable. The imperative now is to find people to blame for that. It can be anyone, as long as it is not those who are truly to blame - the ones who never bothered to learn what leaving actually entailed, how complicated and time-consuming it would be and the compromises that would be necessary to make it economically viable.

    Remainers do everything they do to make a Brexit in Name Only, insisting that you only need to leave in name to fulfil the referendum result, then blame Brexiteers for not fulfilling the actual benefits. Of course you can't get the benefits of other trade deals if Remainers win and keep us in the EU customs union.... Remainers own that if it happens.

    Totally agree. The good news is that staying in the CU - or, more likely, a version of it - would be far better for the UK economy than any number of far-distant trade deals dictated to us from the other side of the table.

  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 4,767
    Freggles said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Labour MPs from the North East call for a second referendum on the final deal:
    https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/eu-trade-brexit-north-east-customs-union-single-market-a8343591.html

    Do they really think people in their constituencies have changed their minds on this?

    They obviously think it's the right thing to do regardless of political consequences for them. They should be praised.
    Well that's true I suppose. Speaking as someone who wants us to rejoin - I think this is the wrong tactic personally and liable to backfire.

    Although there is something slightly patronising about this:

    "We understand why so many people voted to leave the EU in 2016’s referendum: it was a great way of reminding a cosy London establishment that our region has been receiving a raw deal."
This discussion has been closed.