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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn’s approach to Brexit risks alienating the enthusiastic

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  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    nunuone said:

    All future police recruits in England and Wales will have to have a degree.

    A really dumb idea even if most at the moment already do.

    The posh kids always resented those highly-paid police jobs going to the great unwashed.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    Foxy said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.
    Yes, it shows how the EU is not holding up trade with the rest of the world, at least for successful countries like Germany.
    Are you arguing the trade barriers between the EU and non-EU countries matter or that they don't matter? Or is the answer "whichever one helps my argument at the time in question"?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.
    Yes, it shows how the EU is not holding up trade with the rest of the world, at least for successful countries like Germany.
    Are you arguing the trade barriers between the EU and non-EU countries matter or that they don't matter? Or is the answer "whichever one helps my argument at the time in question"?
    The EU removes barriers between members. It doesn’t per se create any new ones with other countries.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    CD13 said:

    I'm not sure the EU can survive as it is.

    My premise is that it's unstable because it's neither one thing (a fully united country), or separate countries. Its a mish-mash, at best, an unfinished cunning plan.

    There's no place for nationalism in that plan, but nationalism is persistent, especially in some of the newer entries, and in some of the what the Yanks call the 'flown over.'

    As for the rage against the dying of the EU flag here, it's becoming boring. Get over yourselves, Remainers, it's time to accept the result of a democratic referendum.

    Reminds me of the Austrian-ahungarian Empire really
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Mr. Walker, you missed off the overuse of 'xenophobes' and 'racists'.

    I think government incompetence at executing the negotiations is something both sides could agree upon.

    The government’s incompetence has been in great part due to Theresa May’s craven attempts to placate the mad Brexit wing.

    The correct way to exit, as some on here (not me) suggested *before* the vote, was via a long transition through an EFTA antechamber, accompanied by concilatory rhetoric about our future with (but not in) Europe.
    You saw Norway’s comments the other day?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Observer, energy policy has been abysmal in this country for decades...
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?

    Dyson. He has said in interviews that Brexit is one of the reasons he is bringing business back into the UK and has announced a new £2.5 billion investment.

    "“Dyson’s exporting strength and commitment to creating jobs in Britain is a real success story that demonstrates the opportunity that our plan to create a truly global Britain can present.”
    Haha. That paragraph of PR waffle is so incredibly tortured. One can hear Mr Dyson insisting a link to Brexit be made in the face of all logic and grammar.
    Ah so when you ask for an example and I give you one you desperately try to disregard it because it doesn't match your personal opinion. And you wonder why no one takes you seriously.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.

    The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.

    New York is not only Manhattan. Property costs in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island can’t be described as sky high. It was noticeable how much more expensive staples like bread, mill and eggs were in Halifax, Nove Scotia, when we spent the summer there in 2016.

    Yes, but Manhattan is so expensive - and so large a share of NYC's population - their very high numbers drag up the whole city tremendously. Go to Chicago or Atlanta or Denver or Orlando. Food prices are much cheaper there in general.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.

    The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.

    New York is not only Manhattan. Property costs in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island can’t be described as sky high. It was noticeable how much more expensive staples like bread, mill and eggs were in Halifax, Nove Scotia, when we spent the summer there in 2016.

    You do know that Halifax is in Canada not the US don't you? Trying to work out what relevance it has to comments about the US.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?

    Dyson. He has said in interviews that Brexit is one of the reasons he is bringing business back into the UK and has announced a new £2.5 billion investment.

    "“Dyson’s exporting strength and commitment to creating jobs in Britain is a real success story that demonstrates the opportunity that our plan to create a truly global Britain can present.”
    Haha. That paragraph of PR waffle is so incredibly tortured. One can hear Mr Dyson insisting a link to Brexit be made in the face of all logic and grammar.
    Ah so when you ask for an example and I give you one you desperately try to disregard it because it doesn't match your personal opinion. And you wonder why no one takes you seriously.
    I asked for one, you gave me one.
    I suggest it is a poor example because James Dyson is rather partial in these matters. But to be fair, it is still an example.

    I don’t know why you have to be so angry all the time, Mr Tyndall. Is it because you’re life’s work is revealed to be an absolute crock?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Charles said:

    Mr. Walker, you missed off the overuse of 'xenophobes' and 'racists'.

    I think government incompetence at executing the negotiations is something both sides could agree upon.

    The government’s incompetence has been in great part due to Theresa May’s craven attempts to placate the mad Brexit wing.

    The correct way to exit, as some on here (not me) suggested *before* the vote, was via a long transition through an EFTA antechamber, accompanied by concilatory rhetoric about our future with (but not in) Europe.
    You saw Norway’s comments the other day?
    Which ones? I did see that they had warmed to our joining EFTA.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not...

    Perhaps not - but those on the Leave side would certainly have been making the case, based on the support of a large minority of voters, for a strong implementation of Cameron's deal, and common cause with the more sceptical EU members.
    And rightly so.

    Your point seems rather a confused one.
    No we wouldn't because Cameron's deal was utterly worthless. There was nothing there to implement.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.

    The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.
    You’re right. We don’t have sky high property costs in London at all.
    Something which is helped by Brexit. Did you bother to read my post?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not...

    Perhaps not - but those on the Leave side would certainly have been making the case, based on the support of a large minority of voters, for a strong implementation of Cameron's deal, and common cause with the more sceptical EU members.
    And rightly so.

    Your point seems rather a confused one.
    No we wouldn't because Cameron's deal was utterly worthless. There was nothing there to implement.
    I can just imagine your staying silent in those circumstances...
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.

    The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.

    New York is not only Manhattan. Property costs in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island can’t be described as sky high. It was noticeable how much more expensive staples like bread, mill and eggs were in Halifax, Nove Scotia, when we spent the summer there in 2016.

    Yes, but Manhattan is so expensive - and so large a share of NYC's population - their very high numbers drag up the whole city tremendously. Go to Chicago or Atlanta or Denver or Orlando. Food prices are much cheaper there in general.
    I suggest this is nonsense, because central London is also expensive. New York is a half decent comparator for London, at least for PB purposes.

    Nevertheless, let’s try Chicago v London.
    Chicago! The great pork and grain emporium of the Midwest. Surely food is cheap there?

    Oh. Groceries are 17% more expensive than London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=Chicago,+IL
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?

    Dyson. He has said in interviews that Brexit is one of the reasons he is bringing business back into the UK and has announced a new £2.5 billion investment.

    "“Dyson’s exporting strength and commitment to creating jobs in Britain is a real success story that demonstrates the opportunity that our plan to create a truly global Britain can present.”
    Haha. That paragraph of PR waffle is so incredibly tortured. One can hear Mr Dyson insisting a link to Brexit be made in the face of all logic and grammar.
    Ah so when you ask for an example and I give you one you desperately try to disregard it because it doesn't match your personal opinion. And you wonder why no one takes you seriously.
    I asked for one, you gave me one.
    I suggest it is a poor example because James Dyson is rather partial in these matters. But to be fair, it is still an example.

    I don’t know why you have to be so angry all the time, Mr Tyndall. Is it because you’re life’s work is revealed to be an absolute crock?
    So anyone that thinks Brexit is a good thing can be excluded as 'partial' and surprise, surprise, of the people that don't think Brexit is a good thing, none have expanded here. How persuasive a point.

    The only absolute crock revealed this morning is the standards of continuity Remainers' logic.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037

    Sean_F said:

    CD13 said:


    As for the rage against the dying of the EU flag here, it's becoming boring. Get over yourselves, Remainers, it's time to accept the result of a democratic referendum.

    The result of the referendum is that Brexit has been put on trial, and the evidence for the prosecution is piling up.
    But the prosecution predicted a recession, unemployment approaching three million, the City moving to Frankfurt, millions of immigrants either coming or going (they predicted both) and the shops empty of food.

    All you have is British government squabbling and doesn't know what its doing.

    And that was a given anyway - see anything non-Brexit related as confirmation.
    Your characterisation of the Remain case is unrecognisable to me. You are wasting the court’s time.
    We didn't get the punishment budget, or the 18% fall in house prices.
    Neither did we Exercise A50 the day after the vote, as Corbyn and others wanted us to.

    We’re drifting aimlessly into Brexit, blown by whichever wind blows hardest. Our relative economic decline is following suit.

    One day we’ll wake up and wonder why we feel so poor abroad. Maybe we already do!
    Even if we had, none of that would have happened.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018
    Re Expensive food staples in Nova Scotia...I would guess 15% sales tax on all food might have something to do with it.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    Can anyone a name a single business that has decided to invest in the U.K. “because Brexit”?

    Dyson. He has said in interviews that Brexit is one of the reasons he is bringing business back into the UK and has announced a new £2.5 billion investment.

    "“Dyson’s exporting strength and commitment to creating jobs in Britain is a real success story that demonstrates the opportunity that our plan to create a truly global Britain can present.”
    Haha. That paragraph of PR waffle is so incredibly tortured. One can hear Mr Dyson insisting a link to Brexit be made in the face of all logic and grammar.
    Ah so when you ask for an example and I give you one you desperately try to disregard it because it doesn't match your personal opinion. And you wonder why no one takes you seriously.
    I asked for one, you gave me one.
    I suggest it is a poor example because James Dyson is rather partial in these matters. But to be fair, it is still an example.

    I don’t know why you have to be so angry all the time, Mr Tyndall. Is it because you’re life’s work is revealed to be an absolute crock?
    Brexit is hardly my life's work and it is actually turning out rather well for me at the moment. There is still a chance my preferred (and monetarily backed) position if EEA membership will come to fruition and I am not seeing any downsides to Brexit at the moment. I am certainly enjoying the disruption it is causing to the political establishment and the number of reputations it is ruining on all sides.

    But I am certainly not angry. I just have no tolerance for hypocrisy and insincerity. I do write in a rather forthright manner but then I expect intelligent people to show a bit of intelligence and not use lazy arguments which are unworthy of them.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited May 2018
    Morning PB'ers.

    Been looking to invest a bit of spare money in some share's. Anyone know why Lloyds share price (currently just 66p) is still so low?

    For such a large banking group the price looks like a bargain but looking at the long term trends its been pretty much stuck under 100p since the crash with no real recovery in its value?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,081

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.
    Yes, it shows how the EU is not holding up trade with the rest of the world, at least for successful countries like Germany.
    Are you arguing the trade barriers between the EU and non-EU countries matter or that they don't matter? Or is the answer "whichever one helps my argument at the time in question"?
    The EU removes barriers between members. It doesn’t per se create any new ones with other countries.
    And indeed much of our non EU trade is via EU brokered Trade Deals.

    We know that trade friction with the EU will increase ppst Brexit. There is no sign of it decreasing elsewhere in compensation.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,722

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.

    The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.

    New York is not only Manhattan. Property costs in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island can’t be described as sky high. It was noticeable how much more expensive staples like bread, mill and eggs were in Halifax, Nove Scotia, when we spent the summer there in 2016.

    Yes, but Manhattan is so expensive - and so large a share of NYC's population - their very high numbers drag up the whole city tremendously. Go to Chicago or Atlanta or Denver or Orlando. Food prices are much cheaper there in general.
    I suggest this is nonsense, because central London is also expensive. New York is a half decent comparator for London, at least for PB purposes.

    Nevertheless, let’s try Chicago v London.
    Chicago! The great pork and grain emporium of the Midwest. Surely food is cheap there?

    Oh. Groceries are 17% more expensive than London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=Chicago,+IL
    But the portions are larger!
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401

    It's interesting to wonder about what would have happened in 2010 were the much-missed Charles Kennedy still leading the party (and not an alcoholic, obviously) - he was the one MP who voted against the coalition. Today, I tend to think they need a new Kennedy, not a new Ashdown.

    Had a non-alcoholic Kennedy been leading the Lib Dems, and had the election outcome been the same as it was with Clegg leading them (which is unlikely - Clegg in that election was more popular than Kennedy, who was already reasonably well-known and probably couldn't have done as well in the debates as Clegg did), as you say, he wouldn't have done a deal with the Tories.

    What would he have done? What were the options?

    1. Back the Tories in C&S. This is basically the same as coalition, except without the benefit of office and publicity. it would have meant keeping the promise on tuition fees (had that been made in the first place) but would also have meant voting through George Osborne's austerity budgets. I don't think Kennedy could have voted for that. Had he done so though, the LDs would still have collapsed in support over the practicalities of an austerity government.

    2. Back Brown, either in coalition or C&S. A disaster waiting to happen. Labour had already run out of steam and Brown was temperamentally unsuited to leading a minority or coalition government. Market wobbles together with parliamentary numbers would have given it a limited life-span, which might have limited LD losses ironically.

    3. Back a notional non-Brown Labour-led government. Apart from the practicalities of prising Brown out of No 10 even after he agreed to go, this would have meant supporting a Labour government whose future policy could not be guaranteed as it'd depend on the impending leadership election. Even more unstable than (2), it'd almost certainly have led to a rapid second election, some LD losses and probably a Con govt. It would, however, have likely also led to David Miliband leading Labour, to no leadership election rule changes and to no Jeremy Corbyn.

    4. Passively allow the Tories to form a minority government by not doing a deal with either main party and abstaining on votes of confidence. Would have looked weak but might have still allowed the LDs to continue to keep its oppositionist supporters on board. Not sustainable in the medium term though as Osborne would have presented a budget they voted down and Cameron would have taken the opportunity to go back to the country to ask for a renewed mandate, painting both the other parties as 'irresponsible with the nation's finances'.

    In every case, we get a second election within two years at most, and LD losses. However, in some scenarios, it wouldn't have been *as* disastrous for the LDs as reality turned out to be.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not. But because we voted 52% Leave they're pretending that's justification for keeping the tentacles of the EU wrapped around the UK.

    Actually had we voted Remain, we would have enacted a modest de-tentacling - to use your overly-emotive phrase per Cameron’s negotiation.

    This idea that a Remain vote would be read as further intervention is a classic Brexiter canard.
    It’s the phrenology de nos jours.
    Tentacles feel very real to me, right now.

    The EU are trying to pass a law to make the import of books more than 250 years old more difficult. Even if they were originally from Europe. Even if they cost £20 - and yes, some old books really are that cheap.

    Yep. Sounds like bullshit.
    No one ever said the EU was run by philosopher-kings.

    How is the lobbying going to prevent it?
    Trying my best - but 'tis difficult, of course, because there isn't the same democratic accountability as in local govt/Westminster.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    No Premier League refs, but...

    A World Cup-bound referee has been banned for life for a match-fixing attempt in Saudi Arabia just weeks before he was due to fly to Russia, says the country's football federation.

    The Saudi Arabian Football Federation (SAFF) says Fahad Al Mirdasi confessed to offering to fix the King's Cup final between Al Ittihad and Al Faisaly.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/44136512
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.

    The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.

    New York is not only Manhattan. Property costs in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island can’t be described as sky high. It was noticeable how much more expensive staples like bread, mill and eggs were in Halifax, Nove Scotia, when we spent the summer there in 2016.

    Yes, but Manhattan is so expensive - and so large a share of NYC's population - their very high numbers drag up the whole city tremendously. Go to Chicago or Atlanta or Denver or Orlando. Food prices are much cheaper there in general.
    I suggest this is nonsense, because central London is also expensive. New York is a half decent comparator for London, at least for PB purposes.

    Nevertheless, let’s try Chicago v London.
    Chicago! The great pork and grain emporium of the Midwest. Surely food is cheap there?

    Oh. Groceries are 17% more expensive than London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=Chicago,+IL
    And not only are prices higher in the US, the quality and range of foods available is nowhere near as good as UK or France.

    (Hello all - just delurking for a while)

  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not. But because we voted 52% Leave they're pretending that's justification for keeping the tentacles of the EU wrapped around the UK.

    Actually had we voted Remain, we would have enacted a modest de-tentacling - to use your overly-emotive phrase per Cameron’s negotiation.

    This idea that a Remain vote would be read as further intervention is a classic Brexiter canard.
    It’s the phrenology de nos jours.
    Tentacles feel very real to me, right now.

    The EU are trying to pass a law to make the import of books more than 250 years old more difficult. Even if they were originally from Europe. Even if they cost £20 - and yes, some old books really are that cheap.

    Presumably we will have to shadow such rules as part of Max Fac as part of Brexit, with no longer any say over the rules.

    Not something that I will lose sleep over though.
    No, actually, it is one of the main differences between a customs partnership, where we would almost certainly follow the rules, and Max fac, where we wouldn't, because we have our own import rules and regs.

    I would have confidence that if this EU law is passed as drafted, we might be able to get the British government to repeal it post transition.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.

    The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.

    New York is not only Manhattan. Property costs in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island can’t be described as sky high. It was noticeable how much more expensive staples like bread, mill and eggs were in Halifax, Nove Scotia, when we spent the summer there in 2016.

    Yes, but Manhattan is so expensive - and so large a share of NYC's population - their very high numbers drag up the whole city tremendously. Go to Chicago or Atlanta or Denver or Orlando. Food prices are much cheaper there in general.
    I suggest this is nonsense, because central London is also expensive. New York is a half decent comparator for London, at least for PB purposes.

    Nevertheless, let’s try Chicago v London.
    Chicago! The great pork and grain emporium of the Midwest. Surely food is cheap there?

    Oh. Groceries are 17% more expensive than London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=Chicago,+IL
    And not only are prices higher in the US, the quality and range of foods available is nowhere near as good as UK or France.

    (Hello all - just delurking for a while)

    That is a massive sweeping generalization. In places like California or Florida, the likes of Whole Foods and Publix makes Waitrose look like Asda for quality and range.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.
    Yes, it shows how the EU is not holding up trade with the rest of the world, at least for successful countries like Germany.
    Are you arguing the trade barriers between the EU and non-EU countries matter or that they don't matter? Or is the answer "whichever one helps my argument at the time in question"?
    The EU removes barriers between members. It doesn’t per se create any new ones with other countries.
    Of course it does - like import restrictions on things more than 250 years old....
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    edited May 2018

    FF43 said:

    Morning all,

    Looks like the N Korea situation is going well. They don't want to give up nukes. Who would have thought it?

    The deal was always going to be that North Korea stops nuclear testing it no longer needs, and as all nuclear powers.do eventually, in exchange for economic and diplomatic normalisation.

    It looks like John Bolton didn't get the message. Or more likely, he got the message and didn't like it.
    Hard to believe that they thought that a murderous dictatorship might find the Libya route attractive.
    Kim's strategy is now crystal clear.

    He appears friendly and cooperative. He makes a number of unilateral concessions - destroys his nuclear testing site (which had already collapsed), frees three Americans. He agrees to meet with Trump to agree the complete denuclearisation of Korea. The world breathes a sigh of relief.

    Having got the world onside, with the possibility of a joint Nobel Peace Prize, Kim now needs to find a reasonable excuse to get out of the talks but putting the blame on the Trump administration. This way he retains his nukes, reduces the possibility of a hot war to depose him and leaves Trump with egg all over his face. A result!

    Kim uses the continuing joint US/SK war games as an excuse. Not in the spirit of the agreement between NK and SK. Then Bolton gives him the perfect excuse. Bolton says it is another Libya! What!! Kim can't believe his good luck. The prospects of the meeting with Trump collapse. The Trump administration gets all the blame. And Kim keeps his nukes and possibly some relaxation of sanctions from China.

    Trump has been played.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    I like the sound of Rosie McKenna. Politics has gone binary in a big way since Brexit and Trump. She sounds just right to lead a new modern party of the left which Corbyn can never do.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,081

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.

    The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.

    New York is not only Manhattan. Property costs in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island can’t be described as sky high. It was noticeable how much more expensive staples like bread, mill and eggs were in Halifax, Nove Scotia, when we spent the summer there in 2016.

    Yes, but Manhattan is so expensive - and so large a share of NYC's population - their very high numbers drag up the whole city tremendously. Go to Chicago or Atlanta or Denver or Orlando. Food prices are much cheaper there in general.
    I suggest this is nonsense, because central London is also expensive. New York is a half decent comparator for London, at least for PB purposes.

    Nevertheless, let’s try Chicago v London.
    Chicago! The great pork and grain emporium of the Midwest. Surely food is cheap there?

    Oh. Groceries are 17% more expensive than London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=Chicago,+IL
    I see Leicester is cheaper for groceries than Atlanta too, including beef, beer and chicken, not ciggies though:

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=Leicester&city2=Atlanta,+GA&tracking=getDispatchComparison
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited May 2018
    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Aldi has around 2000 stores in America and over 500 in Australia - twice as many stores per capita in the latter case than the UK. How is that possible as neither country is in the EU single market?!!
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not...

    Perhaps not - but those on the Leave side would certainly have been making the case, based on the support of a large minority of voters, for a strong implementation of Cameron's deal, and common cause with the more sceptical EU members.
    And rightly so.

    Your point seems rather a confused one.
    No we wouldn't because Cameron's deal was utterly worthless. There was nothing there to implement.
    I can just imagine your staying silent in those circumstances...
    Of course one can never prove such things but I made it very clear on here before the referendum that if we lost I would accept the result and that I did not think it would be reasonable to have another referendum for several decades if ever.

    Would I have been silent? No of course not. Would I have tried to reverse the result or hope for it to fail? No I wouldn't. That is what is so wrong with so many of the Remoaners both on here and elsewhere. For them a successful Brexit would be the very worst result.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.

    The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.

    New York is not only Manhattan. Property costs in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island can’t be described as sky high. It was noticeable how much more expensive staples like bread, mill and eggs were in Halifax, Nove Scotia, when we spent the summer there in 2016.

    Yes, but Manhattan is so expensive - and so large a share of NYC's population - their very high numbers drag up the whole city tremendously. Go to Chicago or Atlanta or Denver or Orlando. Food prices are much cheaper there in general.
    I suggest this is nonsense, because central London is also expensive. New York is a half decent comparator for London, at least for PB purposes.

    Nevertheless, let’s try Chicago v London.
    Chicago! The great pork and grain emporium of the Midwest. Surely food is cheap there?

    Oh. Groceries are 17% more expensive than London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=Chicago,+IL
    Manhattan is much more expensive and a bigger share of the city's population than central London.

    Numbeo's numbers are a joke. What is the source they use?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,081
    Mortimer said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not. But because we voted 52% Leave they're pretending that's justification for keeping the tentacles of the EU wrapped around the UK.

    Actually had we voted Remain, we would have enacted a modest de-tentacling - to use your overly-emotive phrase per Cameron’s negotiation.

    This idea that a Remain vote would be read as further intervention is a classic Brexiter canard.
    It’s the phrenology de nos jours.
    Tentacles feel very real to me, right now.

    The EU are trying to pass a law to make the import of books more than 250 years old more difficult. Even if they were originally from Europe. Even if they cost £20 - and yes, some old books really are that cheap.

    Presumably we will have to shadow such rules as part of Max Fac as part of Brexit, with no longer any say over the rules.

    Not something that I will lose sleep over though.
    No, actually, it is one of the main differences between a customs partnership, where we would almost certainly follow the rules, and Max fac, where we wouldn't, because we have our own import rules and regs.

    I would have confidence that if this EU law is passed as drafted, we might be able to get the British government to repeal it post transition.
    Our government may prefer to keep bureaucracy to a minimum by following the EU rules.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Mortimer said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.
    Yes, it shows how the EU is not holding up trade with the rest of the world, at least for successful countries like Germany.
    Are you arguing the trade barriers between the EU and non-EU countries matter or that they don't matter? Or is the answer "whichever one helps my argument at the time in question"?
    The EU removes barriers between members. It doesn’t per se create any new ones with other countries.
    Of course it does - like import restrictions on things more than 250 years old....
    That’s just legislation of the kind any country could introduce, not a structural barrier inherent in the design of the EU.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not. But because we voted 52% Leave they're pretending that's justification for keeping the tentacles of the EU wrapped around the UK.

    Actually had we voted Remain, we would have enacted a modest de-tentacling - to use your overly-emotive phrase per Cameron’s negotiation.

    This idea that a Remain vote would be read as further intervention is a classic Brexiter canard.
    It’s the phrenology de nos jours.
    Tentacles feel very real to me, right now.

    The EU are trying to pass a law to make the import of books more than 250 years old more difficult. Even if they were originally from Europe. Even if they cost £20 - and yes, some old books really are that cheap.

    Presumably we will have to shadow such rules as part of Max Fac as part of Brexit, with no longer any say over the rules.

    Not something that I will lose sleep over though.
    No, actually, it is one of the main differences between a customs partnership, where we would almost certainly follow the rules, and Max fac, where we wouldn't, because we have our own import rules and regs.

    I would have confidence that if this EU law is passed as drafted, we might be able to get the British government to repeal it post transition.
    Our government may prefer to keep bureaucracy to a minimum by following the EU rules.
    Given the importance of London to the worldwide antiques market, I suspect not.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.

    The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.
    You’re right. We don’t have sky high property costs in London at all.
    :) Just ask Another Richard!
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,722
    Scott_P said:
    It didn’t: LibDems, the significant Opposition there, improved their position in Hull
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,081
    Mortimer said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not. But because we voted 52% Leave they're pretending that's justification for keeping the tentacles of the EU wrapped around the UK.

    Actually had we voted Remain, we would have enacted a modest de-tentacling - to use your overly-emotive phrase per Cameron’s negotiation.

    This idea that a Remain vote would be read as further intervention is a classic Brexiter canard.
    It’s the phrenology de nos jours.
    Tentacles feel very real to me, right now.

    The EU are trying to pass a law to make the import of books more than 250 years old more difficult. Even if they were originally from Europe. Even if they cost £20 - and yes, some old books really are that cheap.

    Presumably we will have to shadow such rules as part of Max Fac as part of Brexit, with no longer any say over the rules.

    Not something that I will lose sleep over though.
    No, actually, it is one of the main differences between a customs partnership, where we would almost certainly follow the rules, and Max fac, where we wouldn't, because we have our own import rules and regs.

    I would have confidence that if this EU law is passed as drafted, we might be able to get the British government to repeal it post transition.
    Our government may prefer to keep bureaucracy to a minimum by following the EU rules.
    Given the importance of London to the worldwide antiques market, I suspect not.
    What percentage of antiques would need to be checked and cerificated for import/export from the remainder of the EU if we deviate from the rules?
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    Foxy said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.

    The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.

    New York is not only Manhattan. Property costs in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island can’t be described as sky high. It was noticeable how much more expensive staples like bread, mill and eggs were in Halifax, Nove Scotia, when we spent the summer there in 2016.

    Yes, but Manhattan is so expensive - and so large a share of NYC's population - their very high numbers drag up the whole city tremendously. Go to Chicago or Atlanta or Denver or Orlando. Food prices are much cheaper there in general.
    I suggest this is nonsense, because central London is also expensive. New York is a half decent comparator for London, at least for PB purposes.

    Nevertheless, let’s try Chicago v London.
    Chicago! The great pork and grain emporium of the Midwest. Surely food is cheap there?

    Oh. Groceries are 17% more expensive than London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=Chicago,+IL
    I see Leicester is cheaper for groceries than Atlanta too, including beef, beer and chicken, not ciggies though:

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=Leicester&city2=Atlanta,+GA&tracking=getDispatchComparison
    Leicester, population half a million, is cheaper than Atlanta, population 6 million?
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Mortimer said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    snip

    Actually had we voted Remain, we would have enacted a modest de-tentacling - to use your overly-emotive phrase per Cameron’s negotiation.

    This idea that a Remain vote would be read as further intervention is a classic Brexiter canard.
    It’s the phrenology de nos jours.
    snip
    snip

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    snip
    snip

    Yes, but Manhattan is so expensive - and so large a share of NYC's population - their very high numbers drag up the whole city tremendously. Go to Chicago or Atlanta or Denver or Orlando. Food prices are much cheaper there in general.
    I suggest this is nonsense, because central London is also expensive. New York is a half decent comparator for London, at least for PB purposes.

    Nevertheless, let’s try Chicago v London.
    Chicago! The great pork and grain emporium of the Midwest. Surely food is cheap there?

    Oh. Groceries are 17% more expensive than London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=Chicago,+IL
    And not only are prices higher in the US, the quality and range of foods available is nowhere near as good as UK or France.

    (Hello all - just delurking for a while)

    US supermarkets, with the exception of Whole Foods (which is expensive), are almost universally dire. Row upon row of utter crap that you wouldn't feed animals. God knows what the Americans must make of France when they visit it. I stayed in a tiny ski resort this winter (Arc 1950) which had a supermarche with a better range than the all the shops in Cincinnati put together.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Nick

    US supermarkets, with the exception of Whole Foods (which is expensive), are almost universally dire. Row upon row of utter crap that you wouldn't feed animals. God knows what the Americans must make of France when they visit it. I stayed in a tiny ski resort this winter (Arc 1950) which had a supermarche with a better range than the all the shops in Cincinnati put together.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.

    The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.

    New York is not only Manhattan. Property costs in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island can’t be described as sky high. It was noticeable how much more expensive staples like bread, mill and eggs were in Halifax, Nove Scotia, when we spent the summer there in 2016.

    Yes, but Manhattan is so expensive - and so large a share of NYC's population - their very high numbers drag up the whole city tremendously. Go to Chicago or Atlanta or Denver or Orlando. Food prices are much cheaper there in general.
    I suggest this is nonsense, because central London is also expensive. New York is a half decent comparator for London, at least for PB purposes.

    Nevertheless, let’s try Chicago v London.
    Chicago! The great pork and grain emporium of the Midwest. Surely food is cheap there?

    Oh. Groceries are 17% more expensive than London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=Chicago,+IL
    Manhattan is much more expensive and a bigger share of the city's population than central London.

    Numbeo's numbers are a joke. What is the source they use?
    It’s via user submissions, so by all means attack the data if you want to go there.

    But I have to say it looks pretty good for the two cities I’m familiar with (London, Auckland).

    Anyway, let us have no more of the myth that we are paying over the top for food because of the EU. It’s fake news. Like the rest of Brexit.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018
    Anazina said:

    Nick

    US supermarkets, with the exception of Whole Foods (which is expensive), are almost universally dire. Row upon row of utter crap that you wouldn't feed animals. God knows what the Americans must make of France when they visit it. I stayed in a tiny ski resort this winter (Arc 1950) which had a supermarche with a better range than the all the shops in Cincinnati put together.

    Just not true....Walmart is crap, the likes of Publix isn't. With so much of the US, it is massively polarized. There is total crap and extremely good, with little inbetween.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.

    The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.

    New York is not only Manhattan. Property costs in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island can’t be described as sky high. It was noticeable how much more expensive staples like bread, mill and eggs were in Halifax, Nove Scotia, when we spent the summer there in 2016.

    Yes, but Manhattan is so expensive - and so large a share of NYC's population - their very high numbers drag up the whole city tremendously. Go to Chicago or Atlanta or Denver or Orlando. Food prices are much cheaper there in general.
    I suggest this is nonsense, because central London is also expensive. New York is a half decent comparator for London, at least for PB purposes.

    Nevertheless, let’s try Chicago v London.
    Chicago! The great pork and grain emporium of the Midwest. Surely food is cheap there?

    Oh. Groceries are 17% more expensive than London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=Chicago,+IL
    And not only are prices higher in the US, the quality and range of foods available is nowhere near as good as UK or France.

    (Hello all - just delurking for a while)

    That is a massive sweeping generalization. In places like California or Florida, the likes of Whole Foods and Publix makes Waitrose look like Asda for quality and range.
    Whole Foods is good but expensive, and a great many US towns and cities have no branch – entire swathes of the country are effectively food deserts.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not...

    Perhaps not - but those on the Leave side would certainly have been making the case, based on the support of a large minority of voters, for a strong implementation of Cameron's deal, and common cause with the more sceptical EU members.
    And rightly so.

    Your point seems rather a confused one.
    No we wouldn't because Cameron's deal was utterly worthless. There was nothing there to implement.
    I can just imagine your staying silent in those circumstances...
    Of course one can never prove such things but I made it very clear on here before the referendum that if we lost I would accept the result and that I did not think it would be reasonable to have another referendum for several decades if ever.

    Would I have been silent? No of course not. Would I have tried to reverse the result or hope for it to fail? No I wouldn't. That is what is so wrong with so many of the Remoaners both on here and elsewhere. For them a successful Brexit would be the very worst result.
    As if we all should all shut up while a demoralised political class goes about enacting your ding-bat policies.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    Nick

    US supermarkets, with the exception of Whole Foods (which is expensive), are almost universally dire. Row upon row of utter crap that you wouldn't feed animals. God knows what the Americans must make of France when they visit it. I stayed in a tiny ski resort this winter (Arc 1950) which had a supermarche with a better range than the all the shops in Cincinnati put together.

    Just not true....Walmart is crap, the likes of Publix isn't. With so much of the US, it is massively polarized. There is total crap and extremely good, with little inbetween.
    Publix only has branches in seven of the 50 states. Much of the US is a food desert.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not. But because we voted 52% Leave they're pretending that's justification for keeping the tentacles of the EU wrapped around the UK.

    Actually had we voted Remain, we would have enacted a modest de-tentacling - to use your overly-emotive phrase per Cameron’s negotiation.

    This idea that a Remain vote would be read as further intervention is a classic Brexiter canard.
    It’s the phrenology de nos jours.
    Tentacles feel very real to me, right now.

    The EU are trying to pass a law to make the import of books more than 250 years old more difficult. Even if they were originally from Europe. Even if they cost £20 - and yes, some old books really are that cheap.

    Presumably we will have to shadow such rules as part of Max Fac as part of Brexit, with no longer any say over the rules.

    Not something that I will lose sleep over though.
    No, actually, it is one of the main differences between a customs partnership, where we would almost certainly follow the rules, and Max fac, where we wouldn't, because we have our own import rules and regs.

    I would have confidence that if this EU law is passed as drafted, we might be able to get the British government to repeal it post transition.
    Our government may prefer to keep bureaucracy to a minimum by following the EU rules.
    Given the importance of London to the worldwide antiques market, I suspect not.
    What percentage of antiques would need to be checked and certificated for import/export from the remainder of the EU if we deviate from the rules?
    You're missing the point. It is import regs, not export, that the legislation is trying to change. If we have MaxFac we won't be in the customs union. We'll have our own streamlined customs system.

    If the EU want to be silly and check all 250+ year old antiques for the correct paperwork, that is their problem. And it would be a problem, because officials won't know whether something is 250+ years old, and are they seriously going to unwrap tens of thousands of ebay purchases to see?

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018
    Anazina said:



    Whole Foods is good but expensive, and a great many US towns and cities have no branch – entire swathes of the country are effectively food deserts.

    You find now is most major cities have good options.

    I don't disagree that when you get to the middle of the US (which bizarrely is where most of the food is grown) you then run into Walmart vs Dollar Tree.

    Beer is another good example. US used to be just flat out terrible across the board. Now, all yours Buds, Coors etc still exist, but loads of really good options for craft beer now.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Barnesian said:

    FF43 said:

    Morning all,

    Looks like the N Korea situation is going well. They don't want to give up nukes. Who would have thought it?

    The deal was always going to be that North Korea stops nuclear testing it no longer needs, and as all nuclear powers.do eventually, in exchange for economic and diplomatic normalisation.

    It looks like John Bolton didn't get the message. Or more likely, he got the message and didn't like it.
    Hard to believe that they thought that a murderous dictatorship might find the Libya route attractive.
    Trump has been played.
    Terrible for the people of North Korea, and the joy in seeing Trump fail in no way compensates.

    Let’s hope it doesn’t go this way.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,081
    Mortimer said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Foxy said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not. But because we voted 52% Leave they're pretending that's justification for keeping the tentacles of the EU wrapped around the UK.

    Actually had we voted Remain, we would have enacted a modest de-tentacling - to use your overly-emotive phrase per Cameron’s negotiation.

    This idea that a Remain vote would be read as further intervention is a classic Brexiter canard.
    It’s the phrenology de nos jours.
    Tentacles feel very real to me, right now.

    Presumably we will have to shadow such rules as part of Max Fac as part of Brexit, with no longer any say over the rules.

    Not something that I will lose sleep over though.
    No, actually, it is one of the main differences between a customs partnership, where we would almost certainly follow the rules, and Max fac, where we wouldn't, because we have our own import rules and regs.

    I would have confidence that if this EU law is passed as drafted, we might be able to get the British government to repeal it post transition.
    Our government may prefer to keep bureaucracy to a minimum by following the EU rules.
    Given the importance of London to the worldwide antiques market, I suspect not.
    What percentage of antiques would need to be checked and certificated for import/export from the remainder of the EU if we deviate from the rules?
    You're missing the point. It is import regs, not export, that the legislation is trying to change. If we have MaxFac we won't be in the customs union. We'll have our own streamlined customs system.

    If the EU want to be silly and check all 250+ year old antiques for the correct paperwork, that is their problem. And it would be a problem, because officials won't know whether something is 250+ years old, and are they seriously going to unwrap tens of thousands of ebay purchases to see?

    So you are suggesting smuggling? I reckon we will stick to the same rules.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037
    Scott_P said:
    That tweet alone tells you everything you need to know about the objectivity of that drama.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    Strange how both are operating in a similar way in the USA.

    The New York point is particularly stupid. Anyway who knows anything about the retail market will be able to tell you their prices are high because of sky high property costs in Manhattan. Brexit, or course, will reduce immigration and slow property cost growth.

    New York is not only Manhattan. Property costs in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island can’t be described as sky high. It was noticeable how much more expensive staples like bread, mill and eggs were in Halifax, Nove Scotia, when we spent the summer there in 2016.

    Yes, but Manhattan is so expensive - and so large a share of NYC's population - their very high numbers drag up the whole city tremendously. Go to Chicago or Atlanta or Denver or Orlando. Food prices are much cheaper there in general.
    snip
    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=Chicago,+IL
    snip
    snip
    You find now is most major cities have good options.

    I don't disagree that when you get to the middle of the US (which bizarrely is where most of the food is grown) you then run into Walmart vs Dollar Tree.
    I spend a lot of time in the US – I have family and clients out there. I'm not saying the problem is universal, I agree with you that it is polarised to a ridiculous degree. I loathe Atlanta as a city – it is possibly the least human city I have ever visited – but it has a tremendous food scene that puts many British cities to shame. Those posted there on business can overcome the ordeal by booking at The Optimist, no michelin star, but nevertheless quite probably one of the best seafood restaurants in the States.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Why do Brexiters claim that food is going to be cheaper outside the EU?

    According to Numbeo, grocery prices are 60% *higher* in New York than in London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=New+York,+NY

    Indeed, it is those two EU based companies, Aldi and Lidl, that have driven down UK grocery prices as a benefit of the Single Market.
    New York is not only Manhattan. Property costs in Queens, the Bronx and Staten Island can’t be described as sky high. It was noticeable how much more expensive staples like bread, mill and eggs were in Halifax, Nove Scotia, when we spent the summer there in 2016.

    Yes, but Manhattan is so expensive - and so large a share of NYC's population - their very high numbers drag up the whole city tremendously. Go to Chicago or Atlanta or Denver or Orlando. Food prices are much cheaper there in general.
    I suggest this is nonsense, because central London is also expensive. New York is a half decent comparator for London, at least for PB purposes.

    Nevertheless, let’s try Chicago v London.
    Chicago! The great pork and grain emporium of the Midwest. Surely food is cheap there?

    Oh. Groceries are 17% more expensive than London.

    https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+Kingdom&country2=United+States&city1=London&city2=Chicago,+IL
    Manhattan is much more expensive and a bigger share of the city's population than central London.

    Numbeo's numbers are a joke. What is the source they use?
    It’s via user submissions, so by all means attack the data if you want to go there.

    But I have to say it looks pretty good for the two cities I’m familiar with (London, Auckland).

    Anyway, let us have no more of the myth that we are paying over the top for food because of the EU. It’s fake news. Like the rest of Brexit.
    Having looked about on various forums, it does seem to be a wash, with things like eggs and bread cheaper here and meat and fish cheaper there.

    These numbers ring truer to me:

    https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/london/chicago/breakdown

    So I will take back my claim food is cheaper in the US. However, that doesn't mean the EU doesn't increase our food costs. The tariffs on imports and farmer subsidies clearly have that impact.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Francis

    I spend a lot of time in the US – I have family and clients out there. I'm not saying the problem is universal, I agree with you that it is polarised to a ridiculous degree. I loathe Atlanta as a city – it is possibly the least human city I have ever visited – but it has a tremendous food scene that puts many British cities to shame. Those posted there on business can overcome the ordeal by booking at The Optimist, no michelin star, but nevertheless quite probably one of the best seafood restaurants in the States.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Barnesian said:

    FF43 said:

    Morning all,

    Looks like the N Korea situation is going well. They don't want to give up nukes. Who would have thought it?

    The deal was always going to be that North Korea stops nuclear testing it no longer needs, and as all nuclear powers.do eventually, in exchange for economic and diplomatic normalisation.

    It looks like John Bolton didn't get the message. Or more likely, he got the message and didn't like it.
    Hard to believe that they thought that a murderous dictatorship might find the Libya route attractive.
    Trump has been played.
    Terrible for the people of North Korea, and the joy in seeing Trump fail in no way compensates.

    Let’s hope it doesn’t go this way.
    Depressing news.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Ace, by that definition, we didn't vote to remain in the EEC in the 1970s.

    Mr. Walker, the £9m leaflet the Government delivered to the electorate before spending limits came in stated that what we voted would be implemented. It didn't include any thresholds. It didn't make special provision for narrow results.

    Had we voted 52% Remain, would the political class and pro-EU types be suggesting we withdraw from certain aspects of the EU? Of course not...

    Perhaps not - but those on the Leave side would certainly have been making the case, based on the support of a large minority of voters, for a strong implementation of Cameron's deal, and common cause with the more sceptical EU members.
    And rightly so.

    Your point seems rather a confused one.
    No we wouldn't because Cameron's deal was utterly worthless. There was nothing there to implement.
    I can just imagine your staying silent in those circumstances...
    Of course one can never prove such things but I made it very clear on here before the referendum that if we lost I would accept the result and that I did not think it would be reasonable to have another referendum for several decades if ever.

    Would I have been silent? No of course not. Would I have tried to reverse the result or hope for it to fail? No I wouldn't. That is what is so wrong with so many of the Remoaners both on here and elsewhere. For them a successful Brexit would be the very worst result.
    As if we all should all shut up while a demoralised political class goes about enacting your ding-bat policies.
    Now who sounds angry?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018
    Anazina said:

    Francis

    I spend a lot of time in the US – I have family and clients out there. I'm not saying the problem is universal, I agree with you that it is polarised to a ridiculous degree. I loathe Atlanta as a city – it is possibly the least human city I have ever visited – but it has a tremendous food scene that puts many British cities to shame. Those posted there on business can overcome the ordeal by booking at The Optimist, no michelin star, but nevertheless quite probably one of the best seafood restaurants in the States.

    Hot-lanta....that ring road "around" Atlanta is one of the worst driving experiences ever. M25 all is forgiven.

    I spend at least a month a year in the US for the past 20 years, and have only seen the food / beer side of things improve year on year. But then I am not that price sensitive.

    Places like Portland have fantastic food / beer scene.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979

    Barnesian said:

    FF43 said:

    Morning all,

    Looks like the N Korea situation is going well. They don't want to give up nukes. Who would have thought it?

    The deal was always going to be that North Korea stops nuclear testing it no longer needs, and as all nuclear powers.do eventually, in exchange for economic and diplomatic normalisation.

    It looks like John Bolton didn't get the message. Or more likely, he got the message and didn't like it.
    Hard to believe that they thought that a murderous dictatorship might find the Libya route attractive.
    Trump has been played.
    Terrible for the people of North Korea, and the joy in seeing Trump fail in no way compensates.

    Let’s hope it doesn’t go this way.
    I was surprised that Kim agreed to meet in Singapore. He is very cautious about his personal safety with good reason. It took him a long time to visit China. I now realise that he had no intention of meeting with Trump so he had no problem with agreeing to Singapore.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018
    Elliot said:



    Having looked about on various forums, it does seem to be a wash, with things like eggs and bread cheaper here and meat and fish cheaper there.

    These numbers ring truer to me:

    https://www.expatistan.com/cost-of-living/comparison/london/chicago/breakdown

    So I will take back my claim food is cheaper in the US. However, that doesn't mean the EU doesn't increase our food costs. The tariffs on imports and farmer subsidies clearly have that impact.

    The US has crazy politicized food subsidy system that makes CAP look superb model to follow e.g. Fructose corn syrup only came about because farmers have been incentized to produce way too much corn.

    Dairy always seems more expensive in the US..I would guess all those fields growing all that unnecessary corn might have something to do with it.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    FF43 said:

    Morning all,

    Looks like the N Korea situation is going well. They don't want to give up nukes. Who would have thought it?

    The deal was always going to be that North Korea stops nuclear testing it no longer needs, and as all nuclear powers.do eventually, in exchange for economic and diplomatic normalisation.

    It looks like John Bolton didn't get the message. Or more likely, he got the message and didn't like it.
    No the deal was never going to be that. The US won't sign a deal that allows NK to keep its nukes for various reasons, but one of them is that it would give Iran the green light to do something similar.

    NK won't give up its nukes as long as the US stands behind the South, despite what it says about denuclearlising the peninsular, because they are and always were the only effective guarantee against US action (NK's conventional forces threat to the South is a big deterrent but it's not on the same scale as deliverable nuclear warheads against the US mainland).

    Bolton's words were stupid but I don't doubt that kim always intended to play this game anyway.

    That said, the summit might still go ahead and an agreement might yet be reached. It it does and if one is, it's purely a stalling tactic to buy time and resources to restore NK's nuclear program.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    FF43 said:

    Morning all,

    Looks like the N Korea situation is going well. They don't want to give up nukes. Who would have thought it?

    The deal was always going to be that North Korea stops nuclear testing it no longer needs, and as all nuclear powers.do eventually, in exchange for economic and diplomatic normalisation.

    It looks like John Bolton didn't get the message. Or more likely, he got the message and didn't like it.
    No the deal was never going to be that. The US won't sign a deal that allows NK to keep its nukes for various reasons, but one of them is that it would give Iran the green light to do something similar.

    NK won't give up its nukes as long as the US stands behind the South, despite what it says about denuclearlising the peninsular, because they are and always were the only effective guarantee against US action (NK's conventional forces threat to the South is a big deterrent but it's not on the same scale as deliverable nuclear warheads against the US mainland).

    Bolton's words were stupid but I don't doubt that kim always intended to play this game anyway.

    That said, the summit might still go ahead and an agreement might yet be reached. It it does and if one is, it's purely a stalling tactic to buy time and resources to restore NK's nuclear program.
    Bolton makes Rumsfeld and Cheney seem like bleeding heart liberals. Trump screwed his own policy by appointing him.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/Adamstoon1/status/996698809311875073

    That cartoon is about as good as the last star wars movie....
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    Francis

    I spend a lot of time in the US – I have family and clients out there. I'm not saying the problem is universal, I agree with you that it is polarised to a ridiculous degree. I loathe Atlanta as a city – it is possibly the least human city I have ever visited – but it has a tremendous food scene that puts many British cities to shame. Those posted there on business can overcome the ordeal by booking at The Optimist, no michelin star, but nevertheless quite probably one of the best seafood restaurants in the States.

    Hot-lanta....that ring road "around" Atlanta is one of the worst driving experiences ever. M25 all is forgiven.

    I spend at least a month a year in the US for the past 20 years, and have only seen the food / beer side of things improve year on year. But then I am not that price sensitive.

    Places like Portland have fantastic food / beer scene.
    The bars have improved massively in many places, as have the restaurants in recent years, but remain almost universally terrible outside the major coastal cities.

    Hot-lanta – not heard that. But yes, it has a truly awful climate – very wet in winter and miserable, hot, oppressive summers that drag on for months. Indeed my client left because he simply couldn't face another summer there.

    In fact, the problem with a great many US cities is that they are simply too hot in the summer – NY suffers to a lesser degree. Londoners don't know how lucky they are. When I hear them whinge about their fantastic climate, I wince.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Scott_P said:
    Can't think who the one between Gove and 'Savid 2 Javid 2' is ?
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:
    Can't think who the one between Gove and 'Savid 2 Javid 2' is ?
    Ha! Fab cartoon :)
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:
    Can't think who the one between Gove and 'Savid 2 Javid 2' is ?

    Jacob Rees
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Pulpstar, Hammond?
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    edited May 2018

    Mr. Pulpstar, Hammond?

    Yes I think it is Hammond. Rees Mogg is the one on the extreme left.

    Excellent caricatures.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Anazina said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Scott_P said:
    Can't think who the one between Gove and 'Savid 2 Javid 2' is ?

    Jacob Rees
    No, he is to the far right of May. Hammond is slightly to the left, thanks @Morris_Dancer
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972

    NEW THREAD

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Anazina said:

    all the shops in Cincinnati

    You must have been very bad in a previous life - “great place to bring up kids” was always the reflexive defence..Ever try “Cincinnati Chili”?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    CD13 said:


    As for the rage against the dying of the EU flag here, it's becoming boring. Get over yourselves, Remainers, it's time to accept the result of a democratic referendum.

    The result of the referendum is that Brexit has been put on trial, and the evidence for the prosecution is piling up.
    But the prosecution predicted a recession, unemployment approaching three million, the City moving to Frankfurt, millions of immigrants either coming or going (they predicted both) and the shops empty of food.

    All you have is British government squabbling and doesn't know what its doing.

    And that was a given anyway - see anything non-Brexit related as confirmation.
    Your characterisation of the Remain case is unrecognisable to me. You are wasting the court’s time.
    The facts are inconvenient I see:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/22/david-cameron-and-george-osborne-brexit-would-put-our-economy-in/

    Or if you want Richard Branson's recession prediction and claim of thousands of jobs already lost:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GQZyP_Odio

    Or you could look back at PB in the days after the Referendum and see the doom and disaster talk complete with anecdotes about people they know losing their jobs.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    Anazina said:

    Anyone have details as to where the 'middle-aged renters', who are the latest group to be concerned about, live in the country ?

    ' Analysis from Royal London has suggested that "as a broad rule of thumb", people whose combined pension income equates to around two-thirds of their gross wages before they retire, should not see a major change in their standard of living when they stop earning.

    As a result, the report concluded that an average earner now needed a retirement pot of around £260,000 to avoid a fall in living standards when they retired.

    However, the figure rises sharply to as high as £445,000 for non-homeowners who are still having to pay rent to a private landlord during their retirement. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44125837

    Let me guess, they are disproportionately located in That London
    Another Richard is fond of quoting stats but perhaps hasn’t noticed the vertiginous collapse in home ownership (especially, but not just in London) visible in the 35-44 cohort. They’ll be middle aged in a decade.
    I have an I've made numerous comments about it here including, perhaps, inventing the phrase 'middle class regression'.

    I've also condemned the government for subsidising higher house prices at the cost of falling home ownership and pointed out that this is a driving force behind Corbynism.

    Not to mention repeatedly saying there is a connection between affordable housing and swings to the Conservatives or vice versa.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Anazina said:

    Anyone have details as to where the 'middle-aged renters', who are the latest group to be concerned about, live in the country ?

    ' Analysis from Royal London has suggested that "as a broad rule of thumb", people whose combined pension income equates to around two-thirds of their gross wages before they retire, should not see a major change in their standard of living when they stop earning.

    As a result, the report concluded that an average earner now needed a retirement pot of around £260,000 to avoid a fall in living standards when they retired.

    However, the figure rises sharply to as high as £445,000 for non-homeowners who are still having to pay rent to a private landlord during their retirement. '

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44125837

    Let me guess, they are disproportionately located in That London
    Another Richard is fond of quoting stats but perhaps hasn’t noticed the vertiginous collapse in home ownership (especially, but not just in London) visible in the 35-44 cohort. They’ll be middle aged in a decade.
    I have an I've made numerous comments about it here including, perhaps, inventing the phrase 'middle class regression'.

    I've also condemned the government for subsidising higher house prices at the cost of falling home ownership and pointed out that this is a driving force behind Corbynism.

    Not to mention repeatedly saying there is a connection between affordable housing and swings to the Conservatives or vice versa.
    Good. Now you just need to see the light on Brexit.
This discussion has been closed.