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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why I think it will be Gove & Sajid in a CON members’ ballot n

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  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    Anazina said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Grayling ushers in the end of franchising with LNER public/private partnership plan.

    Chrissy Grayling, the people's transport secretary.

    Who'd a thunk it.

    Sounds like joint private public partnership emerging across the rail networks. Big move and should be popular
    Agreed. A sharp move to the left by the government that will be very popular. Franchising is a failure and deeply unpopular with the British public.
    #effectiveopposition?
    Your OP on this was very thought provoking.

    I'm no Corbyn fan but on a the most fundamental neutral measure of forcing the govt to change its policies, Her Majesty's Opposition has been rather effective, I must admit.
    Thanks. There is a very legitimate question as to how far another leader could have made greater successes given the weakness of the govt and its determination to push through a hard brexit unpopular with many of their MPs.

    I don't doubt that Corbyn repels many. Perhaps someone like Yvette Cooper would be getting a few Tory MPs to defect to Labour over Brexit.

    But on the other hand, I do think that Corbyn's willingness to fight for (what seem to be) losing causes has contributed to the policies that have shifted.

    Remember that not so long ago the wisdom in the Labour party was that Tory welfare cuts had to be welcomed/accepted, that talking about nationalising railways was stupid, that the student finance system just needed modest reform etc.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    MaxPB said:

    I'd vote for Javid over Gove, even though Javid was nominally a remainer.

    Economist claims he only said 'Remain' to keep in with Cameron. Which implies he thought Remain would win, or at the very least Cameron wouldn't have to resign.

    He's a big fan of Ayn Rand.

    So Rand vs Marx could be the GE 2022 election in summary!!!!
    You cannot really be a big fan of Ayn Rand and be Home Secretary
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018
    The Labour Party faces losing a staggering £600,000 on their 'leftie Glastonbury' festival as they have only sold a fraction of the tickets up for grabs.

    Jeremy Corbyn is putting on the Labour Live Festival next month where he will speak alongside sets by The Magic Numbers and The Voice winner Jermain Jackman.

    But so far just 1,800 of the 20,000 tickets have been sold, even though the £35 passes - which have a £5 discount for the unemployed - have been on sale for nearly two months.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5735339/Labour-faces-losses-600-000-leftie-Glastonbury-festival.html

    Couldn't organize a piss up in a brewery Haringey .
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    Great Northern ALSO heading into LNER PPP Grayling indicates.

    Franchising is dead.

    Discuss.

    Far too early to say that. i expect that a new franchise will be put up for tender in due course. Grayling probably had no real choice other than to return the current franchise to the state, in the absence of another operator being able to take over immediately.

    The only other option - to keep the current franchisee on - would have looked ludicrous. They clearly need to suffer some form of penalty for failing to meet their commitments (thought it should be noted that the failure of the state-owned Network Rail to keep *its* commitments was part of Virgin-Stagecoach's problem).

    The ability of the government to act as an operator of last resort is a useful disincentive for bidders to bid high and then renegotiate once the contract is in the pocket - but not only does it not undermine the franchise model, it actually strengthens it.
    Nope – the franchising model has been abandoned for the ECML. Moving to a PPP system long-term, after an interim period of full nationalisation.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    edited May 2018
    AndyJS said:

    Trump's approval rating with registered voters climbs to 44.4%, compared to the 46.1% he got at the 2016 election.

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/voters/

    Which would still be the lowest approval rating for any sitting President seeking re election since Bush Snr in 1992 when he lost to Bill Clinton
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756

    Not long now until Southgate reveals the squad that will win the World Cup.... ;-)

    More importantly..

    https://twitter.com/Oldfirmfacts1/status/996699829609943040
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.

    And electricity is a mixed bag.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.

    And electricity is a mixed bag.
    Agreed.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    edited May 2018
    Corbyn wins easily two Pmqs in a row.Mainly regarding Brexit.

    Says all you need to know regarding May.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/16/pmqs-verdict-corbyn-is-starting-to-make-it-look-easy
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Francis

    I spend a lot of time in the US – I have family and clients out there. I'm not saying the problem is universal, I agree with you that it is polarised to a ridiculous degree. I loathe Atlanta as a city – it is possibly the least human city I have ever visited – but it has a tremendous food scene that puts many British cities to shame. Those posted there on business can overcome the ordeal by booking at The Optimist, no michelin star, but nevertheless quite probably one of the best seafood restaurants in the States.

    Hot-lanta....that ring road "around" Atlanta is one of the worst driving experiences ever. M25 all is forgiven.

    I spend at least a month a year in the US for the past 20 years, and have only seen the food / beer side of things improve year on year. But then I am not that price sensitive.

    Places like Portland have fantastic food / beer scene.
    The bars have improved massively in many places, as have the restaurants in recent years, but remain almost universally terrible outside the major coastal cities.
    That's a bit like saying places like Stoke have crap bars and restaurants. Large swaves of the UK are now dominated by crap chain restaurants and bars, cough cough Nandos....Also see the massive expansion of Dominos and KFC across the UK in the past 10 years.
    Nandos is great, I won't have a word said against it apart from price
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    But our model of rail privatisation and water privatisation has not been copied around the world.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Anazina said:

    Rees and Johnson are utter plonkers – they have no chance.

    I doubt by the time ive read the whole thread that i will be the only one to reflect that your statements are unconnected, even though both may be true.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    edited May 2018
    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Great Northern ALSO heading into LNER PPP Grayling indicates.

    Franchising is dead.

    Discuss.

    Far too early to say that. i expect that a new franchise will be put up for tender in due course. Grayling probably had no real choice other than to return the current franchise to the state, in the absence of another operator being able to take over immediately.

    The only other option - to keep the current franchisee on - would have looked ludicrous. They clearly need to suffer some form of penalty for failing to meet their commitments (thought it should be noted that the failure of the state-owned Network Rail to keep *its* commitments was part of Virgin-Stagecoach's problem).

    The ability of the government to act as an operator of last resort is a useful disincentive for bidders to bid high and then renegotiate once the contract is in the pocket - but not only does it not undermine the franchise model, it actually strengthens it.
    Nope – the franchising model has been abandoned for the ECML. Moving to a PPP system long-term, after an interim period of full nationalisation.
    Well then I disagree with that move. PPP's have a poor record of delivery for the taxpayer because as a rule, the state ends up with too much risk and not enough return.

    I'd also say that franchising is an essential element of taking on the RMT, which has never accepted any policy other than a nationalised railway which it can run in its own interests. The less chance of change, the more chance of them continually wringing concessions from the government by screwing the public.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    And how has water privatisation a huge failure? How we manage our water, both drinking and sewage has undergone the most staggering improvements and investments. Their work and together with the Environment Agency has seen the most rapid improvement of water quality in living memory.

    We would laugh about the way we did things in the past. In fact much if not all of the way we used to dispose of things would be now unlawful.

    Other countries did it in different ways, but water privatisation and the environment act have fundamentally changed our living environment for the better. The most successful quiet revolution in recent history.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    edited May 2018
    rkrkrk said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    But our model of rail privatisation and water privatisation has not been copied around the world.
    Was that model a case of misapplying the lessons of the BT privatisation and the failed attempt to create competition with Mercury? If they'd used the rail model for BT, it would have worked much better.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.

    And electricity is a mixed bag.
    The way Gas and electricity work should improve over time as people maintain their switching habits as they age. The latest British Gas numbers indicate this is the case.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    notme said:

    AndyJS said:

    blueblue said:

    GE2017 showed us that what the Tories need above all else is someone who can f****** CAMPAIGN. Someone who can turn up to debates, speak engagingly, and sell a well-chosen set of policies with passion and clarity.

    No other criterion matters a damn - pull someone off the street who ticks those boxes if the PCP can't supply them!

    Didn't Dave refuse to take part in a one on one debate in 2015? I can't remember exactly what happened.
    As a negotiating technique he managed to get everything he wanted. It was a dream situation for him. I assumed May not wanting to take part was just that, a negotiating starter to make sure she got what she wanted. I was horrified when she didnt take part.

    She isnt that bad. She's a bit wooden but she can hold her own. Terrible decision.
    Corbyn played it very well, changing his mind late on. Rudd did well, but May cocked up.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    If rail privatisation was such a failure, passenger numbers wouldn't have *doubled* since the mid-1990s, after decades of continual decline.

    Whisper it quietly but those increased prices produced investment into services that people were willing to use. By contrast, state-run systems in Britain always end up low-fare and low-investment.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Great Northern ALSO heading into LNER PPP Grayling indicates.

    Franchising is dead.

    Discuss.

    Far too early to say that. i expect that a new franchise will be put up for tender in due course. Grayling probably had no real choice other than to return the current franchise to the state, in the absence of another operator being able to take over immediately.

    The only other option - to keep the current franchisee on - would have looked ludicrous. They clearly need to suffer some form of penalty for failing to meet their commitments (thought it should be noted that the failure of the state-owned Network Rail to keep *its* commitments was part of Virgin-Stagecoach's problem).

    The ability of the government to act as an operator of last resort is a useful disincentive for bidders to bid high and then renegotiate once the contract is in the pocket - but not only does it not undermine the franchise model, it actually strengthens it.
    Nope – the franchising model has been abandoned for the ECML. Moving to a PPP system long-term, after an interim period of full nationalisation.
    Looks like this will be the model for the future and really pleased LNER is back, the railway I grew up with
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    The public only have peripheral views of most contenders I'd say. Seeing someone as leader, as pm, may put someone in a different light from when they were rank and file at health, or education, or whatever. Past record is therefore not irrelevant, but I'd think they would get one chance to reinvent themselves.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Yorkcity said:

    Corbyn wins easily two Pmqs in a row.Mainly regarding Brexit.

    Says all you need to know regarding May.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/16/pmqs-verdict-corbyn-is-starting-to-make-it-look-easy

    Even the Sun thinks so.....

    https://twitter.com/SunPolitics/status/996731996503183360?s=20
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    If rail privatisation was such a failure, passenger numbers wouldn't have *doubled* since the mid-1990s, after decades of continual decline.

    Whisper it quietly but those increased prices produced investment into services that people were willing to use. By contrast, state-run systems in Britain always end up low-fare and low-investment.
    Can you let me know the public subsidy for these privatised services?

    Also, why do your support foreign states running our railways but not our own state?

    The most popular railway in the UK – the London Underground – is nationalised.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    FPT
    David Herdson said :
    ' What were the options?

    1. Back the Tories in C&S. This is basically the same as coalition, except without the benefit of office and publicity. it would have meant keeping the promise on tuition fees (had that been made in the first place) but would also have meant voting through George Osborne's austerity budgets. I don't think Kennedy could have voted for that. Had he done so though, the LDs would still have collapsed in support over the practicalities of an austerity government.

    2. Back Brown, either in coalition or C&S. A disaster waiting to happen. Labour had already run out of steam and Brown was temperamentally unsuited to leading a minority or coalition government. Market wobbles together with parliamentary numbers would have given it a limited life-span, which might have limited LD losses ironically.

    3. Back a notional non-Brown Labour-led government. Apart from the practicalities of prising Brown out of No 10 even after he agreed to go, this would have meant supporting a Labour government whose future policy could not be guaranteed as it'd depend on the impending leadership election. Even more unstable than (2), it'd almost certainly have led to a rapid second election, some LD losses and probably a Con govt. It would, however, have likely also led to David Miliband leading Labour, to no leadership election rule changes and to no Jeremy Corbyn.

    4. Passively allow the Tories to form a minority government by not doing a deal with either main party and abstaining on votes of confidence. Would have looked weak but might have still allowed the LDs to continue to keep its oppositionist supporters on board. Not sustainable in the medium term though as Osborne would have presented a budget they voted down and Cameron would have taken the opportunity to go back to the country to ask for a renewed mandate, painting both the other parties as 'irresponsible with the nation's finances'.

    In every case, we get a second election within two years at most, and LD losses. However, in some scenarios, it wouldn't have been *as* disastrous for the LDs as reality turned out to be. '

    I remain unconvinced by option 4. There continues to be debate among constitutional experts on this, but I tend to the view that is far from clear that Cameron would have been automatically granted a further Dissolution under those circumstances. For that to have occurred , I suspect it would have to have been very clear indeed that an alternative administration could not be formed from the existing House of Commons. In the 2010 Parliament, a Rainbow Coalition - however unstable or shortterm - would have been a possibility.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited May 2018
    Yorkcity said:

    Corbyn wins easily two Pmqs in a row.Mainly regarding Brexit.

    Says all you need to know regarding May.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/16/pmqs-verdict-corbyn-is-starting-to-make-it-look-easy

    The difference is May has the decision to make and is deadlocked at present making it an open goal for Corbyn

    However, his real problem is coming at him like an express train (topical) when he tells his mps to vote against EEA

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    As for water, perhaps it needs to be privatised further -

    Average yearly water bills by company:

    South West Water: £943
    Wessex Water: £728
    Southern Water: £673
    United Utilities: £652
    Dwr Cymru Welsh Water: £636
    Anglian Water: £619
    Scottish Water: £600
    Northern Ireland Water: £596
    Yorkshire Water: £562
    Northumberland Water: £539
    Severn Trent: £502
    Thames Water: £440

    Luckily I'm in an area served by Severn Trent who are very reasonable but pity the residents of Devon and Cornwall who have no choice but to use SWW.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    It’s also introduced competition - London to Birmingham £40 on Virgin (if you’re lucky) and £5.50 on ChilternRail for 20 minutes longer in a train with free WIFI. I’m sure nationalisation would put an end to that in the name of “streamlining”...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    The east coast line has been a real problem but the new private public partnership should be revolutionary
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Great Northern ALSO heading into LNER PPP Grayling indicates.

    Franchising is dead.

    Discuss.

    Far too early to say that. i expect that a new franchise will be put up for tender in due course. Grayling probably had no real choice other than to return the current franchise to the state, in the absence of another operator being able to take over immediately.

    The only other option - to keep the current franchisee on - would have looked ludicrous. They clearly need to suffer some form of penalty for failing to meet their commitments (thought it should be noted that the failure of the state-owned Network Rail to keep *its* commitments was part of Virgin-Stagecoach's problem).

    The ability of the government to act as an operator of last resort is a useful disincentive for bidders to bid high and then renegotiate once the contract is in the pocket - but not only does it not undermine the franchise model, it actually strengthens it.
    Nope – the franchising model has been abandoned for the ECML. Moving to a PPP system long-term, after an interim period of full nationalisation.
    Looks like this will be the model for the future and really pleased LNER is back, the railway I grew up with
    Good for you, even a majority of Conservative supporters oppose franchising I believe.

    The problem supporters of the system have is that no-one can answer Christian Wolmar's question "what is franchising for?"

    Other countries are perfectly capable of running excellent railways in the state sector.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    edited May 2018

    Yorkcity said:

    Corbyn wins easily two Pmqs in a row.Mainly regarding Brexit.

    Says all you need to know regarding May.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/16/pmqs-verdict-corbyn-is-starting-to-make-it-look-easy

    Even the Sun thinks so.....
    How long until Corbyn becomes Blair? "I lead my party; she follows hers. Weak! Weak! Weak!"
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    The east coast line has been a real problem but the new private public partnership should be revolutionary
    There has been very little wrong with the East Coast line these past 10 years.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Pulpstar said:

    As for water, perhaps it needs to be privatised further -

    Average yearly water bills by company:

    South West Water: £943
    Wessex Water: £728
    Southern Water: £673
    United Utilities: £652
    Dwr Cymru Welsh Water: £636
    Anglian Water: £619
    Scottish Water: £600
    Northern Ireland Water: £596
    Yorkshire Water: £562
    Northumberland Water: £539
    Severn Trent: £502
    Thames Water: £440

    Luckily I'm in an area served by Severn Trent who are very reasonable but pity the residents of Devon and Cornwall who have no choice but to use SWW.

    Yes, I don't like my water company so I'm going to change supplier.

    Oh.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    *points generally in the direction of the UK's flagship railway, the East Coast Mainline*
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    The east coast line has been a real problem but the new private public partnership should be revolutionary
    There has been very little wrong with the East Coast line these past 10 years.
    That was part of the problem with GNER and NXEC!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    Yorkcity said:

    Corbyn wins easily two Pmqs in a row.Mainly regarding Brexit.

    Says all you need to know regarding May.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/16/pmqs-verdict-corbyn-is-starting-to-make-it-look-easy

    Even the Sun thinks so.....
    How long until Corbyn becomes Blair? "I lead my party; she follows hers. Weak! Weak! Weak!"
    Not while everyone from Chuka Umunna to Alistair Campbell disagrees with him on the single market
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    The east coast line has been a real problem but the new private public partnership should be revolutionary
    There has been very little wrong with the East Coast line these past 10 years.
    Indeed – it was in state ownership for six of those years!

    It was the other four that were problematic!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    justin124 said:

    FPT
    David Herdson said :
    ' What were the options?

    1. Back the Tories in C&S. This is basically the same as coalition, except without the benefit of office and publicity. it would have meant keeping the promise on tuition fees (had that been made in the first place) but would also have meant voting through George Osborne's austerity budgets. I don't think Kennedy could have voted for that. Had he done so though, the LDs would still have collapsed in support over the practicalities of an austerity government.

    2. Back Brown, either in coalition or C&S. A disaster waiting to happen. Labour had already run out of steam and Brown was temperamentally unsuited to leading a minority or coalition government. Market wobbles together with parliamentary numbers would have given it a limited life-span, which might have limited LD losses ironically.

    3. Back a notional non-Brown Labour-led government. Apart from the practicalities of prising Brown out of No 10 even after he agreed to go, this would have meant supporting a Labour government whose future policy could not be guaranteed as it'd depend on the impending leadership election. Even more unstable than (2), it'd almost certainly have led to a rapid second election, some LD losses and probably a Con govt. It would, however, have likely also led to David Miliband leading Labour, to no leadership election rule changes and to no Jeremy Corbyn.

    4. Passively allow the Tories to form a minority government by not doing a deal with either main party and abstaining on votes of confidence. Would have looked weak but might have still allowed the LDs to continue to keep its oppositionist supporters on board. Not sustainable in the medium term though as Osborne would have presented a budget they voted down and Cameron would have taken the opportunity to go back to the country to ask for a renewed mandate, painting both the other parties as 'irresponsible with the nation's finances'.

    In every case, we get a second election within two years at most, and LD losses. However, in some scenarios, it wouldn't have been *as* disastrous for the LDs as reality turned out to be. '

    I remain unconvinced by option 4. There continues to be debate among constitutional experts on this, but I tend to the view that is far from clear that Cameron would have been automatically granted a further Dissolution under those circumstances. For that to have occurred , I suspect it would have to have been very clear indeed that an alternative administration could not be formed from the existing House of Commons. In the 2010 Parliament, a Rainbow Coalition - however unstable or shortterm - would have been a possibility.

    And probably led to a Tory landslide in 2015
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    Anazina said:

    Pulpstar said:

    As for water, perhaps it needs to be privatised further -

    Average yearly water bills by company:

    South West Water: £943
    Wessex Water: £728
    Southern Water: £673
    United Utilities: £652
    Dwr Cymru Welsh Water: £636
    Anglian Water: £619
    Scottish Water: £600
    Northern Ireland Water: £596
    Yorkshire Water: £562
    Northumberland Water: £539
    Severn Trent: £502
    Thames Water: £440

    Luckily I'm in an area served by Severn Trent who are very reasonable but pity the residents of Devon and Cornwall who have no choice but to use SWW.

    Yes, I don't like my water company so I'm going to change supplier.

    Oh.
    That's why the franchising system exists (or existed?) for the railways. If you can't use standard market mechanisms because of high barriers to entry, then you have to replicate them some other way.

    Not that franchising is the only way of doing that; a powerful regulator can also stimulate innovation, efficiency and investment - but it does rely on the regulator knowing what they're doing.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    The east coast line has been a real problem but the new private public partnership should be revolutionary
    There has been very little wrong with the East Coast line these past 10 years.
    Indeed – it was in state ownership for six of those years!

    It was the other four that were problematic!
    Wrong.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Anazina said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    *points generally in the direction of the UK's flagship railway, the East Coast Mainline*
    I've always found it to be very efficient. I use it maybe 10 x per year. Cheap, too.

    What are you saying, it was better under BR? The sarnies certainly weren't....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    I've just checked my historic ticket prices for NNG -> KCX, 2015 £34 return; 2017 £46 return.

    I didn't have to faff around with codes for wireless in 2015 either iirc.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018
    And your next world cup winning squad is....

    Goalkeepers: Butland, Pickford, Pope

    Defenders: Alexander-Arnold, Cahill, Delph, Jones, Maguire, Rose, Stones, Trippier, Walker, Young.

    Midfielders: Alli, Dier, Henderson, Lingard, Loftus-Cheek.

    Forwards: Kane, Rashford, Sterling, Vardy, Welbeck


    That has to be one of the weakest England WC squads ever.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    *points generally in the direction of the UK's flagship railway, the East Coast Mainline*
    I've always found it to be very efficient. I use it maybe 10 x per year. Cheap, too.

    What are you saying, it was better under BR? The sarnies certainly weren't....
    You are clearly too young to remember the BR bacon roll. Simple, and effective of a chilly morning.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    Corbyn wins easily two Pmqs in a row.Mainly regarding Brexit.

    Says all you need to know regarding May.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/16/pmqs-verdict-corbyn-is-starting-to-make-it-look-easy

    Even the Sun thinks so.....

    https://twitter.com/SunPolitics/status/996731996503183360?s=20
    At some point very soon , hopefully, she needs to fulfill the job description and do some leading .
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    edited May 2018
    I’ve tipped Thornberry before as Corbyn’s replacement, but I’ve soured lately because of comments like the one above.

    She’s witty and determined, but she doesn’t seem to want it and she keeps making stupid remarks as she does here.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    The east coast line has been a real problem but the new private public partnership should be revolutionary
    There has been very little wrong with the East Coast line these past 10 years.
    Indeed – it was in state ownership for six of those years!

    It was the other four that were problematic!
    It has not been problematic. Not for the four years or the six years.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    justin124 said:

    FPT
    David Herdson said :
    ' What were the options?

    [snip]

    4. Passively allow the Tories to form a minority government by not doing a deal with either main party and abstaining on votes of confidence. Would have looked weak but might have still allowed the LDs to continue to keep its oppositionist supporters on board. Not sustainable in the medium term though as Osborne would have presented a budget they voted down and Cameron would have taken the opportunity to go back to the country to ask for a renewed mandate, painting both the other parties as 'irresponsible with the nation's finances'.

    In every case, we get a second election within two years at most, and LD losses. However, in some scenarios, it wouldn't have been *as* disastrous for the LDs as reality turned out to be. '

    I remain unconvinced by option 4. There continues to be debate among constitutional experts on this, but I tend to the view that is far from clear that Cameron would have been automatically granted a further Dissolution under those circumstances. For that to have occurred , I suspect it would have to have been very clear indeed that an alternative administration could not be formed from the existing House of Commons. In the 2010 Parliament, a Rainbow Coalition - however unstable or shortterm - would have been a possibility.

    I agree that had Cameron *immediately* asked for a new dissolution then it's questionable as to whether it would have been granted but in the scenario I sketched out, it's probable that it would have been.

    If the Lib Dems had enabled the Tories to form a government by refusing to back Brown in a vote of confidence, then Cameron could reasonably have argued during the summer that there was no viable alternative - how could Labour nominate someone if they either (1) had the leader the Lib Dems had already rejected, or (2) were in the middle of a leadership election?

    Alternatively, had the crisis in parliament not developed until the autumn (i.e. once Labour had a new leader), then the precedent from 1974 would have been sufficient to argue that Cameron was entitled to a dissolution on request based on time elapsed, and other precedents (1923?) that a government defeated in the Commons could go to the country even if an alternative one might be available within the existing House.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Pulpstar said:

    I've just checked my historic ticket prices for NNG -> KCX, 2015 £34 return; 2017 £46 return.

    I didn't have to faff around with codes for wireless in 2015 either iirc.

    Here's the thing. That price rise is to pay the government, not shareholders.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    I see that a Labour councillor in Oxford has had the whip withdrawn for tweeting picures of children being threatened by armed soldiers. One picture showed a Nazi soldier from World War 2 whilst another showed an Israeli doing something similar a mere few days ago. Personally , I feel his point is well made by those photos - and fail to see how producing them amounts to Anti-Semitism at all. At the end of the day, Netanyahu is little better than Himmler et al.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Pulpstar said:

    I've just checked my historic ticket prices for NNG -> KCX, 2015 £34 return; 2017 £46 return.

    I didn't have to faff around with codes for wireless in 2015 either iirc.


    Quite. Virgin quickly ramped up prices while services rapidly declined following the unnecessary departure of the very good Directly Operated Railways.

    A family Friday night trip to Newcastle in 2016 for £200 with people strewn across the vestibules while First Class was empty remains one of the worst journeys of my life.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,785
    Before we get into an afternoon of judging the 2018 England squad, a small moment to note that Ray Wilson,1966 World Cup winner, has died.
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,867
    justin124 said:

    notme said:

    On topic, I agree with Mike. It helps that I'd be happy with either as leader. Granted, questions come with either but then that's true of anyone. Would Gove be able to reverse the unpopularity he suffered at Education? Javid is atill a bit of a blank sheet.

    The one technical point I'd make is that it's unlikely that a candidate would need the support of 100+ MPs.

    To reach the final two, you have to finish in the top two in the round-of-three. To be absolutely assured of that, you do indeed need more than 1/3 of the MPs (i.e. at least 106) but the more that the leading candidate scores, the fewer votes the second candidate needs. So if the leading candidate secures 150 votes, then the next one only needs more than (316-150)/2 i.e. 89. That said, the bigger the deficit among MPs, the harder it becomes to run a credible campaign.

    Gove is a seear word in my house, my other half is a teacher. She shows me some of the changes that have been instituted under his tenure as Education Secretary and some of it seems to offer little or no benefit for a lot of change.

    Who knows that GCSE's are now graded from 1 to 9 and not A* to E? But teachers have no idea what the different grades are meant to be. The GCSEs essentially now have zero or minimal coursework and a massive increase in content. And then the Baccalaureate which is really just a means to channel children through doing a specific set of GCSEs. It offers no merit outside of that and results in a narrowing of subjects taught at schools as those subjects that arent part of it are skipped by the brighter kids.

    Some of the changes I'm sympathetic to, and its fairly clear that the left only object to it when its Conservative ministers interfering with the curriculum, not when it was Labour.

    But Gove is a bit marmite....

    There was little or no course work for O levels and A levels anyway until the late 1980s. Back in the early 1970s O levels were graded 1 to 9 . A few years later the grading system was replaced by A to E.
    That's not quite correct. Until the early 1970s, different exam boards graded in different ways, some alphabetically, some numerically. The JMB was one of those that used numerical grades, but in the opposite direction to today, with 1, rather than 9, being the top mark. It was only in 1975 that the alphabetic grading became the standard.

    It still seems very odd to me that 1 is now the worst, rather than the best, grade. In most other countries that use numerical grading, 1 is the top mark. The system seems almost designed to cause confusion!
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    The east coast line has been a real problem but the new private public partnership should be revolutionary
    There has been very little wrong with the East Coast line these past 10 years.
    Indeed – it was in state ownership for six of those years!

    It was the other four that were problematic!
    It has not been problematic. Not for the four years or the six years.
    Three failed franchisees is not problematic. Hmm.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    And your next world cup winning squad is....

    Goalkeepers: Butland, Pickford, Pope

    Defenders: Alexander-Arnold, Cahill, Delph, Jones, Maguire, Rose, Stones, Trippier, Walker, Young.

    Midfielders: Alli, Dier, Henderson, Lingard, Loftus-Cheek.

    Forwards: Kane, Rashford, Sterling, Vardy, Welbeck


    That has to be one of the weakest England WC squads ever.

    If they finish 3rd , like Spurs , would be some achievement.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018
    No Ryan Bertrand and Adam Lallana seems quite surprising, especially when the likes of Delph and Jones are getting in the squad.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018
    Yorkcity said:

    And your next world cup winning squad is....

    Goalkeepers: Butland, Pickford, Pope

    Defenders: Alexander-Arnold, Cahill, Delph, Jones, Maguire, Rose, Stones, Trippier, Walker, Young.

    Midfielders: Alli, Dier, Henderson, Lingard, Loftus-Cheek.

    Forwards: Kane, Rashford, Sterling, Vardy, Welbeck


    That has to be one of the weakest England WC squads ever.

    If they finish 3rd , like Spurs , would be some achievement.
    3rd in their group is more likely...

    Seems to me from those picks it is going to be 5 at the back, park the bus, and pray Alli and Kane can magic something up.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547
    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Corbyn wins easily two Pmqs in a row.Mainly regarding Brexit.

    Says all you need to know regarding May.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/16/pmqs-verdict-corbyn-is-starting-to-make-it-look-easy

    Even the Sun thinks so.....

    https://twitter.com/SunPolitics/status/996731996503183360?s=20
    At some point very soon , hopefully, she needs to fulfill the job description and do some leading .
    Today's Tory "Party" cannot be led. Even if May were endowed with the leadership skills of Moses it would make no difference. Many of her MPs are not willing to follow her and nothing, but nothing, will make them do so.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    And your next world cup winning squad is....

    Goalkeepers: Butland, Pickford, Pope

    Defenders: Alexander-Arnold, Cahill, Delph, Jones, Maguire, Rose, Stones, Trippier, Walker, Young.

    Midfielders: Alli, Dier, Henderson, Lingard, Loftus-Cheek.

    Forwards: Kane, Rashford, Sterling, Vardy, Welbeck


    That has to be one of the weakest England WC squads ever.

    I don't think we need three right backs. I'd have taken Shelvey instead of one of Trippier or Alexander-Arnold.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    tlg86 said:

    And your next world cup winning squad is....

    Goalkeepers: Butland, Pickford, Pope

    Defenders: Alexander-Arnold, Cahill, Delph, Jones, Maguire, Rose, Stones, Trippier, Walker, Young.

    Midfielders: Alli, Dier, Henderson, Lingard, Loftus-Cheek.

    Forwards: Kane, Rashford, Sterling, Vardy, Welbeck


    That has to be one of the weakest England WC squads ever.

    I don't think we need three right backs. I'd have taken Shelvey instead of one of Trippier or Alexander-Arnold.
    Lallana makes it before Shelvey.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Puts Corbyn & Thornbury in a tricky spot...

    https://twitter.com/TelegraphNews/status/996741263461441536?s=20
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Corbyn wins easily two Pmqs in a row.Mainly regarding Brexit.

    Says all you need to know regarding May.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/16/pmqs-verdict-corbyn-is-starting-to-make-it-look-easy

    Even the Sun thinks so.....

    https://twitter.com/SunPolitics/status/996731996503183360?s=20
    At some point very soon , hopefully, she needs to fulfill the job description and do some leading .
    Today's Tory "Party" cannot be led. Even if May were endowed with the leadership skills of Moses it would make no difference. Many of her MPs are not willing to follow her and nothing, but nothing, will make them do so.
    Yes, as I've commented before Nicky Morgan and Rees Mogg are as bad as each other both going off piste w.r.t EU policy.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018
    After last summers excitement of all the England youth teams with really exciting up and coming players, the WC squad is blander than a pair of John Majors underpants.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    tlg86 said:

    And your next world cup winning squad is....

    Goalkeepers: Butland, Pickford, Pope

    Defenders: Alexander-Arnold, Cahill, Delph, Jones, Maguire, Rose, Stones, Trippier, Walker, Young.

    Midfielders: Alli, Dier, Henderson, Lingard, Loftus-Cheek.

    Forwards: Kane, Rashford, Sterling, Vardy, Welbeck


    That has to be one of the weakest England WC squads ever.

    I don't think we need three right backs. I'd have taken Shelvey instead of one of Trippier or Alexander-Arnold.
    Lallana makes it before Shelvey.
    He's not played enough in my opinion. And even if he were fit, I'd have him instead of Welbeck. I think we need another deeper midfield option which is what Shelvey offers.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    And your next world cup winning squad is....

    Goalkeepers: Butland, Pickford, Pope

    Defenders: Alexander-Arnold, Cahill, Delph, Jones, Maguire, Rose, Stones, Trippier, Walker, Young.

    Midfielders: Alli, Dier, Henderson, Lingard, Loftus-Cheek.

    Forwards: Kane, Rashford, Sterling, Vardy, Welbeck


    That has to be one of the weakest England WC squads ever.

    I don't think we need three right backs. I'd have taken Shelvey instead of one of Trippier or Alexander-Arnold.
    Lallana makes it before Shelvey.
    He's not played enough in my opinion. And even if he were fit, I'd have him instead of Welbeck. I think we need another deeper midfield option which is what Shelvey offers.
    I wouldn't have taken Welbeck that for certain. Injury prone and can't even get in a shit Arsenal team.

    Sounds crazy, but I think I would go for Mr "7 out of 10" Milner if you want that kind of deeper midfield option.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    After last summers excitement of all the England youth teams with really exciting up and coming players, the WC squad is blander than a pair of John Majors underpants.

    I did wonder if Jadon Sancho would be included as a bit of a wild card.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    justin124 said:

    I see that a Labour councillor in Oxford has had the whip withdrawn for tweeting picures of children being threatened by armed soldiers. One picture showed a Nazi soldier from World War 2 whilst another showed an Israeli doing something similar a mere few days ago. Personally , I feel his point is well made by those photos - and fail to see how producing them amounts to Anti-Semitism at all. At the end of the day, Netanyahu is little better than Himmler et al.

    The more-or-less official definition of antisemitism includes drawing parallels with the Nazis.

    https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    tlg86 said:

    And your next world cup winning squad is....

    Goalkeepers: Butland, Pickford, Pope

    Defenders: Alexander-Arnold, Cahill, Delph, Jones, Maguire, Rose, Stones, Trippier, Walker, Young.

    Midfielders: Alli, Dier, Henderson, Lingard, Loftus-Cheek.

    Forwards: Kane, Rashford, Sterling, Vardy, Welbeck


    That has to be one of the weakest England WC squads ever.

    I don't think we need three right backs. I'd have taken Shelvey instead of one of Trippier or Alexander-Arnold.
    Lallana makes it before Shelvey.
    Agreed , thought Smalling would have made the squad.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited May 2018
    justin124 said:

    I see that a Labour councillor in Oxford has had the whip withdrawn for tweeting picures of children being threatened by armed soldiers. One picture showed a Nazi soldier from World War 2 whilst another showed an Israeli doing something similar a mere few days ago. Personally , I feel his point is well made by those photos - and fail to see how producing them amounts to Anti-Semitism at all. At the end of the day, Netanyahu is little better than Himmler et al.

    Ooh, sir, sir, us too, sir.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Anazina said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I've just checked my historic ticket prices for NNG -> KCX, 2015 £34 return; 2017 £46 return.

    I didn't have to faff around with codes for wireless in 2015 either iirc.


    Quite. Virgin quickly ramped up prices while services rapidly declined following the unnecessary departure of the very good Directly Operated Railways.

    A family Friday night trip to Newcastle in 2016 for £200 with people strewn across the vestibules while First Class was empty remains one of the worst journeys of my life.
    You are basing your entire opinion on one obviously deeply scarring journey. Virgin has been great on the east coast line - from staff, to the service, to BEAM (don't use it myself), etc, etc.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018
    tlg86 said:

    After last summers excitement of all the England youth teams with really exciting up and coming players, the WC squad is blander than a pair of John Majors underpants.

    I did wonder if Jadon Sancho would be included as a bit of a wild card.
    I haven't seen masses of him, but we really don't have much in midfield that other teams haven't seen heaps of and have a very good idea how to counter.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    The east coast line has been a real problem but the new private public partnership should be revolutionary
    There has been very little wrong with the East Coast line these past 10 years.
    Indeed – it was in state ownership for six of those years!

    It was the other four that were problematic!
    It has not been problematic. Not for the four years or the six years.
    Three failed franchisees is not problematic. Hmm.
    Well the key issue is of course money. They aren't making enough. And whoever gets to run it the problem will remain - general taxation to support rail travellers, or put up tickets to penalise them.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I've just checked my historic ticket prices for NNG -> KCX, 2015 £34 return; 2017 £46 return.

    I didn't have to faff around with codes for wireless in 2015 either iirc.


    Quite. Virgin quickly ramped up prices while services rapidly declined following the unnecessary departure of the very good Directly Operated Railways.

    A family Friday night trip to Newcastle in 2016 for £200 with people strewn across the vestibules while First Class was empty remains one of the worst journeys of my life.
    You are basing your entire opinion on one obviously deeply scarring journey. Virgin has been great on the east coast line - from staff, to the service, to BEAM (don't use it myself), etc, etc.
    2014 £24.20 return !
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    The east coast line has been a real problem but the new private public partnership should be revolutionary
    There has been very little wrong with the East Coast line these past 10 years.
    Indeed – it was in state ownership for six of those years!

    It was the other four that were problematic!
    It has not been problematic. Not for the four years or the six years.
    Three failed franchisees is not problematic. Hmm.
    Well the key issue is of course money. They aren't making enough. And whoever gets to run it the problem will remain - general taxation to support rail travellers, or put up tickets to penalise them.
    Didn't the ECML run at a profit whilst nationalised... ?
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    And your next world cup winning squad is....

    Goalkeepers: Butland, Pickford, Pope

    Defenders: Alexander-Arnold, Cahill, Delph, Jones, Maguire, Rose, Stones, Trippier, Walker, Young.

    Midfielders: Alli, Dier, Henderson, Lingard, Loftus-Cheek.

    Forwards: Kane, Rashford, Sterling, Vardy, Welbeck


    That has to be one of the weakest England WC squads ever.

    If they finish 3rd , like Spurs , would be some achievement.
    3rd in their group is more likely...

    Seems to me from those picks it is going to be 5 at the back, park the bus, and pray Alli and Kane can magic something up.
    It looked bad in 1990 , in the group stage .However played our best game in the semi final , when we lost on penalties.So you never know.

    Anyways hope the players that won the under 17 and 19s world cup , get their chances at the highest level .


  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    And your next world cup winning squad is....

    Goalkeepers: Butland, Pickford, Pope

    Defenders: Alexander-Arnold, Cahill, Delph, Jones, Maguire, Rose, Stones, Trippier, Walker, Young.

    Midfielders: Alli, Dier, Henderson, Lingard, Loftus-Cheek.

    Forwards: Kane, Rashford, Sterling, Vardy, Welbeck


    That has to be one of the weakest England WC squads ever.

    Agree and southgate has made some poor choices in my view.

    Loftus-cheek ahead of wilshere ? I think loftus-cheek is up with jack on the injury list front.

    And don't get me going on Cahill,one of the poorest central defender's in England's history.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    The east coast line has been a real problem but the new private public partnership should be revolutionary
    There has been very little wrong with the East Coast line these past 10 years.
    Indeed – it was in state ownership for six of those years!

    It was the other four that were problematic!
    It has not been problematic. Not for the four years or the six years.
    Three failed franchisees is not problematic. Hmm.
    Well the key issue is of course money. They aren't making enough. And whoever gets to run it the problem will remain - general taxation to support rail travellers, or put up tickets to penalise them.
    Didn't the ECML run at a profit whilst nationalised... ?
    Absolutely no idea. But Virgin has been a step change upwards in "experience". Not sure when the fabled new fleet is due in, that said, they have been using borrowed carriages for ages.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    edited May 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    The east coast line has been a real problem but the new private public partnership should be revolutionary
    There has been very little wrong with the East Coast line these past 10 years.
    Indeed – it was in state ownership for six of those years!

    It was the other four that were problematic!
    It has not been problematic. Not for the four years or the six years.
    Three failed franchisees is not problematic. Hmm.
    Well the key issue is of course money. They aren't making enough. And whoever gets to run it the problem will remain - general taxation to support rail travellers, or put up tickets to penalise them.
    Didn't the ECML run at a profit whilst nationalised... ?
    It still does.

    Have a look at the snazzy chart on page 8:

    https://tinyurl.com/y7twhgka

    Everything to the left of the Y axis is tax. Everything to the right is subsidy.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979

    justin124 said:

    I see that a Labour councillor in Oxford has had the whip withdrawn for tweeting picures of children being threatened by armed soldiers. One picture showed a Nazi soldier from World War 2 whilst another showed an Israeli doing something similar a mere few days ago. Personally , I feel his point is well made by those photos - and fail to see how producing them amounts to Anti-Semitism at all. At the end of the day, Netanyahu is little better than Himmler et al.

    The more-or-less official definition of antisemitism includes drawing parallels with the Nazis.

    https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
    Parallels with who? Jews or Israelis? There's a big difference.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    And your next world cup winning squad is....

    Goalkeepers: Butland, Pickford, Pope

    Defenders: Alexander-Arnold, Cahill, Delph, Jones, Maguire, Rose, Stones, Trippier, Walker, Young.

    Midfielders: Alli, Dier, Henderson, Lingard, Loftus-Cheek.

    Forwards: Kane, Rashford, Sterling, Vardy, Welbeck


    That has to be one of the weakest England WC squads ever.

    If they finish 3rd , like Spurs , would be some achievement.
    3rd in their group is more likely...

    Seems to me from those picks it is going to be 5 at the back, park the bus, and pray Alli and Kane can magic something up.
    It looked bad in 1990 , in the group stage .However played our best game in the semi final , when we lost on penalties.So you never know.

    Anyways hope the players that won the under 17 and 19s world cup , get their chances at the highest level .


    I was just looking at the 2014 squad and it is rather depressing how things have turned out.

    Shaw hasn't improved, Barkley has gone backwards, the Ox has got a bit better but never going to be a world beater, Wilshire is buggered after all those injuries, as are Welbeck and Sturridge.

    Only Sterling is a better player, but he still has the Walcott about him i.e. too often rips apart the defence with his pace then plays the wrong final ball / plays its badly.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    The east coast line has been a real problem but the new private public partnership should be revolutionary
    There has been very little wrong with the East Coast line these past 10 years.
    Indeed – it was in state ownership for six of those years!

    It was the other four that were problematic!
    It has not been problematic. Not for the four years or the six years.
    Three failed franchisees is not problematic. Hmm.
    Well the key issue is of course money. They aren't making enough. And whoever gets to run it the problem will remain - general taxation to support rail travellers, or put up tickets to penalise them.
    Didn't the ECML run at a profit whilst nationalised... ?
    Yes - and it ran at an even bigger one when privatised - but Virgin-Stagecoach bid on the basis of making the even bigger profits necessary to pay the franchise licence.

    IIRC, ECML was profitable even back in the days of BR.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    FPT
    David Herdson said :
    ' What were the options?

    [snip]


    In every case, we get a second election within two years at most, and LD losses. However, in some scenarios, it wouldn't have been *as* disastrous for the LDs as reality turned out to be. '

    I remain unconvinced by option 4. There continues to be debate among constitutional experts on this, but I tend to the view that is far from clear that Cameron would have been automatically granted a further Dissolution under those circumstances. For that to have occurred , I suspect it would have to have been very clear indeed that an alternative administration could not be formed from the existing House of Commons. In the 2010 Parliament, a Rainbow Coalition - however unstable or shortterm - would have been a possibility.

    I agree that had Cameron *immediately* asked for a new dissolution then it's questionable as to whether it would have been granted but in the scenario I sketched out, it's probable that it would have been.

    If the Lib Dems had enabled the Tories to form a government by refusing to back Brown in a vote of confidence, then Cameron could reasonably have argued during the summer that there was no viable alternative - how could Labour nominate someone if they either (1) had the leader the Lib Dems had already rejected, or (2) were in the middle of a leadership election?

    Alternatively, had the crisis in parliament not developed until the autumn (i.e. once Labour had a new leader), then the precedent from 1974 would have been sufficient to argue that Cameron was entitled to a dissolution on request based on time elapsed, and other precedents (1923?) that a government defeated in the Commons could go to the country even if an alternative one might be available within the existing House.
    I don't think events would have panned out quite as you suggest.

    Labour had an Acting Leader - Harriet Harman- who could have fulffiled the role of alternative PM in the same way that Attlee did in 1935 following George Landsbury's resignation. It is also entirely possible that faced with the fall of a minority Cameron Government that Labour would have found a way to accelerate its leadership election process.
    I am not persuaded that the 1974 precedent is particularly strong here. Had Ted Heath been able to reach some agreement with Jeremy Thorpe's Liberals and the various Ulster Unionist factions in the Summer that year, can we be sure that Harold Wilson would have been granted a second Dissolution that year?
    Re- the 1923 Parliament - when Ramsay Macdonald's minority Labour Government sought a Dissolution in Autumn 1924 George V only agreed to the request following discussions with Baldwin and Asquith - both of whom assured him they were not in a position to form a Government.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    edited May 2018
    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    The east coast line has been a real problem but the new private public partnership should be revolutionary
    There has been very little wrong with the East Coast line these past 10 years.
    Indeed – it was in state ownership for six of those years!

    It was the other four that were problematic!
    It has not been problematic. Not for the four years or the six years.
    Three failed franchisees is not problematic. Hmm.
    Well the key issue is of course money. They aren't making enough. And whoever gets to run it the problem will remain - general taxation to support rail travellers, or put up tickets to penalise them.
    Err, DOR ran it at a profit to great customer satisfaction and lower prices.

    And I'm not basing it on one journey – I used it frequently because my mother-in-law lives up there.

    It was a hopeless service at weekends generally, with a few exceptions.

    Glad to hear DOR have it back – they ran it well. Let them keep it.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018

    And your next world cup winning squad is....

    Goalkeepers: Butland, Pickford, Pope

    Defenders: Alexander-Arnold, Cahill, Delph, Jones, Maguire, Rose, Stones, Trippier, Walker, Young.

    Midfielders: Alli, Dier, Henderson, Lingard, Loftus-Cheek.

    Forwards: Kane, Rashford, Sterling, Vardy, Welbeck


    That has to be one of the weakest England WC squads ever.

    Agree and southgate has made some poor choices in my view.

    Loftus-cheek ahead of wilshere ? I think loftus-cheek is up with jack on the injury list front.

    And don't get me going on Cahill,one of the poorest central defender's in England's history.
    To be fair, he has got a shit deck to choose from whichever way you look at it. Smalling instead of Cahill, Wilshire instead of Loftus-Cheek isn't going to make any real difference.

    He has clearly gone for the park the bus, lets not get thrashed by anybody, get to the knock-out stages and hope we get lucky.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Pulpstar said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Mortimer said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    notme said:

    Is the Labour's spokesman on transport the poster boy for the Gammon insult?

    Grayling has just shot Corbyn's renationalisation fox
    Bizarre since the privatisng of BT, water and the railways are three of the top five of the most successful post war policy decisions of any government to date.
    LOL
    You'd prefer Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn to provide your mobile phone?
    Quite. With BT being the first, it was one of the engines of the global communications revolution that has changed the world. The whole notion that telecommunications was not an arm of the government but a fully independent competitive market place created an explosion in innovation and advancement. Copied and replicated around the world.
    Telecoms privatisation was a massive success.

    Water and rail privatisation a huge failure.
    How has rail privatisation been a failure? I use much newer trains, strikes are largely regional, rather than national, and the pricing is competitive. For example my season ticket from the home to the shop is less than parking would cost near the shop, let alone petrol/costs of car etc.
    The east coast line has been a real problem but the new private public partnership should be revolutionary
    There has been very little wrong with the East Coast line these past 10 years.
    Indeed – it was in state ownership for six of those years!

    It was the other four that were problematic!
    It has not been problematic. Not for the four years or the six years.
    Three failed franchisees is not problematic. Hmm.
    Well the key issue is of course money. They aren't making enough. And whoever gets to run it the problem will remain - general taxation to support rail travellers, or put up tickets to penalise them.
    Didn't the ECML run at a profit whilst nationalised... ?
    Yep

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/11085643/State-owned-train-company-returns-217m-to-taxpayers.html
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Anazina said:


    Err, DOR ran it at a profit to great customer satisfaction and lower prices.

    And I'm not basing it on one journey – I used it frequently because my mother-in-law lives up there.

    It was a hopeless service at weekends generally, with a few exceptions.

    Glad to hear DOR have it back – they ran it will. Let them keep it.

    So you never had an experience of overcrowding while it was in public hands? Did they dramatically increase the number of trains in operation or something?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    I see that a Labour councillor in Oxford has had the whip withdrawn for tweeting picures of children being threatened by armed soldiers. One picture showed a Nazi soldier from World War 2 whilst another showed an Israeli doing something similar a mere few days ago. Personally , I feel his point is well made by those photos - and fail to see how producing them amounts to Anti-Semitism at all. At the end of the day, Netanyahu is little better than Himmler et al.

    The more-or-less official definition of antisemitism includes drawing parallels with the Nazis.

    https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
    But the effect of that is to give the Israelis a permit to act like Nazis!
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756

    justin124 said:

    I see that a Labour councillor in Oxford has had the whip withdrawn for tweeting picures of children being threatened by armed soldiers. One picture showed a Nazi soldier from World War 2 whilst another showed an Israeli doing something similar a mere few days ago. Personally , I feel his point is well made by those photos - and fail to see how producing them amounts to Anti-Semitism at all. At the end of the day, Netanyahu is little better than Himmler et al.

    The more-or-less official definition of antisemitism includes drawing parallels with the Nazis.

    https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
    Ol' Bibi isn't averse to a bit of Nazi comparing.

    'Benjamin Netanyahu, Israeli prime minister, has labelled Iran "the greatest threat to the world" in his address to the Munich Security Conference in Germany.
    Comparing Iran to Nazi Germany, Netanyahu said on Sunday that Iran advocates "master faith" just like Nazi Germany used to advocate "master race"'

    'In his address, Netanyahu not only condemned Hamas but put it on par with the Nazis, the German party responsible for the death of approximately 6 million Jewish people during World War II. “The Nazis believe in a master race, the militants believe in a master faith,” he said.'

    'Netanyahu: Hamas is trying to start another Holocaust
    Israeli PM responds Abbas' condolences to Holocaust victims saying he should stop 'trying to appease international public opinion'.
    As Israel geared up to mark its annual memorial day for the Holocaust, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu renewed his attack on the new Palestinian unity agreement between Fatah and Hamas by drawing a comparison between Hamas and the Nazis.'

    Etc.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited May 2018
    Barnesian said:

    justin124 said:

    I see that a Labour councillor in Oxford has had the whip withdrawn for tweeting picures of children being threatened by armed soldiers. One picture showed a Nazi soldier from World War 2 whilst another showed an Israeli doing something similar a mere few days ago. Personally , I feel his point is well made by those photos - and fail to see how producing them amounts to Anti-Semitism at all. At the end of the day, Netanyahu is little better than Himmler et al.

    The more-or-less official definition of antisemitism includes drawing parallels with the Nazis.

    https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
    Parallels with who? Jews or Israelis? There's a big difference.
    Israel. From the link: Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis is antisemitic, by definition.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    TOPPING said:

    Anazina said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I've just checked my historic ticket prices for NNG -> KCX, 2015 £34 return; 2017 £46 return.

    I didn't have to faff around with codes for wireless in 2015 either iirc.


    Quite. Virgin quickly ramped up prices while services rapidly declined following the unnecessary departure of the very good Directly Operated Railways.

    A family Friday night trip to Newcastle in 2016 for £200 with people strewn across the vestibules while First Class was empty remains one of the worst journeys of my life.
    You are basing your entire opinion on one obviously deeply scarring journey. Virgin has been great on the east coast line - from staff, to the service, to BEAM (don't use it myself), etc, etc.
    So great that they have just had the franchised removed.

    Fair play to you for fighting a losing battle.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547
    Pulpstar said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Corbyn wins easily two Pmqs in a row.Mainly regarding Brexit.

    Says all you need to know regarding May.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/16/pmqs-verdict-corbyn-is-starting-to-make-it-look-easy

    Even the Sun thinks so.....

    https://twitter.com/SunPolitics/status/996731996503183360?s=20
    At some point very soon , hopefully, she needs to fulfill the job description and do some leading .
    Today's Tory "Party" cannot be led. Even if May were endowed with the leadership skills of Moses it would make no difference. Many of her MPs are not willing to follow her and nothing, but nothing, will make them do so.
    Yes, as I've commented before Nicky Morgan and Rees Mogg are as bad as each other both going off piste w.r.t EU policy.
    Brexit is the defining issue of modern British politics (thanks to Cameron's idiotic referendum). Morgan represents one view and Rees Mogg another - these views are completely incompatible, no compromise is possible and nor is compromise desired by the main protagonists. These people may be nominally in the same party but the gulf between them is far too wide and deep to be bridged by appeals to party loyalty.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    edited May 2018

    Barnesian said:

    justin124 said:

    I see that a Labour councillor in Oxford has had the whip withdrawn for tweeting picures of children being threatened by armed soldiers. One picture showed a Nazi soldier from World War 2 whilst another showed an Israeli doing something similar a mere few days ago. Personally , I feel his point is well made by those photos - and fail to see how producing them amounts to Anti-Semitism at all. At the end of the day, Netanyahu is little better than Himmler et al.

    The more-or-less official definition of antisemitism includes drawing parallels with the Nazis.

    https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/working-definition-antisemitism
    Parallels with who? Jews or Israelis? There's a big difference.
    Israel. From the link: Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
    Then the comparison is not anti-semitic.

    The "working definition" you refer to conflates Judaism with Israel. This is obviously in the Interests of Israel who can state that criticism of Israel is anti-semitic.

    No wonder Corbyn rightly rejected that definition.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165
    Anazina said:
    And it still returns a profit to the tax payer :angry:
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    And your next world cup winning squad is....

    Goalkeepers: Butland, Pickford, Pope

    Defenders: Alexander-Arnold, Cahill, Delph, Jones, Maguire, Rose, Stones, Trippier, Walker, Young.

    Midfielders: Alli, Dier, Henderson, Lingard, Loftus-Cheek.

    Forwards: Kane, Rashford, Sterling, Vardy, Welbeck


    That has to be one of the weakest England WC squads ever.

    If they finish 3rd , like Spurs , would be some achievement.
    3rd in their group is more likely...

    Seems to me from those picks it is going to be 5 at the back, park the bus, and pray Alli and Kane can magic something up.
    It looked bad in 1990 , in the group stage .However played our best game in the semi final , when we lost on penalties.So you never know.

    Anyways hope the players that won the under 17 and 19s world cup , get their chances at the highest level .


    I was just looking at the 2014 squad and it is rather depressing how things have turned out.

    Shaw hasn't improved, Barkley has gone backwards, the Ox has got a bit better but never going to be a world beater, Wilshire is buggered after all those injuries, as are Welbeck and Sturridge.

    Only Sterling is a better player, but he still has the Walcott about him i.e. too often rips apart the defence with his pace then plays the wrong final ball / plays its badly.
    Yes totally agree , Gary Lineker is saying we should write of the world cup and play the youngsters

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2018/05/15/gary-lineker-england-should-write-world-cup-play-youngsters/
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    notme said:

    On topic, I agree with Mike. It helps that I'd be happy with either as leader. Granted, questions come with either but then that's true of anyone. Would Gove be able to reverse the unpopularity he suffered at Education? Javid is atill a bit of a blank sheet.

    The one technical point I'd make is that it's unlikely that a candidate would need the support of 100+ MPs.

    To reach the final two, you have to finish in the top two in the round-of-three. To be absolutely assured of that, you do indeed need more than 1/3 of the MPs (i.e. at least 106) but the more that the leading candidate scores, the fewer votes the second candidate needs. So if the leading candidate secures 150 votes, then the next one only needs more than (316-150)/2 i.e. 89. That said, the bigger the deficit among MPs, the harder it becomes to run a credible campaign.

    Gove is a seear word in my house, my other half is a teacher. She shows me some of the changes that have been instituted under his tenure as Education Secretary and some of it seems to offer little or no benefit for a lot of change.

    Who knows that GCSE's are now graded from 1 to 9 and not A* to E? But teachers have no idea what the different grades are meant to be. The GCSEs essentially now have zero or minimal coursework and a massive increase in content. And then the Baccalaureate which is really just a means to channel children through doing a specific set of GCSEs. It offers no merit outside of that and results in a narrowing of subjects taught at schools as those subjects that arent part of it are skipped by the brighter kids.

    Some of the changes I'm sympathetic to, and its fairly clear that the left only object to it when its Conservative ministers interfering with the curriculum, not when it was Labour.

    But Gove is a bit marmite....

    There was little or no course work for O levels and A levels anyway until the late 1980s. Back in the early 1970s O levels were graded 1 to 9 . A few years later the grading system was replaced by A to E.
    That's not quite correct. Until the early 1970s, different exam boards graded in different ways, some alphabetically, some numerically. The JMB was one of those that used numerical grades, but in the opposite direction to today, with 1, rather than 9, being the top mark. It was only in 1975 that the alphabetic grading became the standard.

    It still seems very odd to me that 1 is now the worst, rather than the best, grade. In most other countries that use numerical grading, 1 is the top mark. The system seems almost designed to cause confusion!
    My experience was also of Grade 1 being the top grade.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    RobD said:

    Anazina said:


    Err, DOR ran it at a profit to great customer satisfaction and lower prices.

    And I'm not basing it on one journey – I used it frequently because my mother-in-law lives up there.

    It was a hopeless service at weekends generally, with a few exceptions.

    Glad to hear DOR have it back – they ran it will. Let them keep it.

    So you never had an experience of overcrowding while it was in public hands? Did they dramatically increase the number of trains in operation or something?
    I didn't. DOR were much more savvy on splitting First and Standard class – they reduced First on busy Friday night services where Standard passengers were paying peak premiums. Virgin didn't – they were hopeless.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    I'm still open to the idea of publicly owned railways. If there is no chance of proper competition (and franchising doesn't count as proper competition) then public ownership is an option. Water companies should also fall under this IMO.

    In parts of the economy where competition is possible we can clearly see the benefits (telecoms, electricity, air travel etc...) but where it is not possible or the market is a poor imitation of a real market there are less clear benefits (Water, railways) and the possibility for price gouging is too high.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    I hope the fares go back to the same as they were under DOR, I can't say I noted any improvement in service when it was under Virgin though I admit I am a very infrequent user.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    MaxPB said:

    I'm still open to the idea of publicly owned railways. If there is no chance of proper competition (and franchising doesn't count as proper competition) then public ownership is an option. Water companies should also fall under this IMO.

    In parts of the economy where competition is possible we can clearly see the benefits (telecoms, electricity, air travel etc...) but where it is not possible or the market is a poor imitation of a real market there are less clear benefits (Water, railways) and the possibility for price gouging is too high.

    Quite right.

    Good post.
This discussion has been closed.