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  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Elliot said:

    I don't see why the rest of us should be held to ransom by a handful of religious bigots that get upset at flags.

    Indeed.
    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/856242373483008001
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    tlg86 said:


    How long until it all becomes ancient history? Presumably you have no problem being in a political union with a country that dropped bombs on us and killed thousands of our people.

    And what about Dresden? Are we guiltless?
    That's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that people in this country were supposed to just accept it.

    Personally I have a higher opinion of the Irish than most remainers on here. I don't think they'll start killing each other.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,924
    edited May 2018

    tlg86 said:


    How long until it all becomes ancient history? Presumably you have no problem being in a political union with a country that dropped bombs on us and killed thousands of our people.

    And what about Dresden? Are we guiltless?
    Basil Fawlty: Is there something wrong?
    German Guest: Will you stop talking about the war?
    Basil Fawlty: Me? You started it.
    German Guest: We did not!
    Basil Fawlty: Yes, you did. You invaded Poland!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.
    Or accept there will be some sort of border as far as technology allows.

    Now personally I am in favour of a united Ireland but not by imposition. I return to my previous position which is if Ireland and the EU want a hard border then that is their affair. We should simply proceed as if there is no need for one and let them play catch up.
    The lack of political nous in saying so what if there is a border in Ireland is astounding. To be so unaware of what happened in Ireland over the past 10, 40, 400+ years is extraordinary. And all in the pursuit of your blessed Brexit.

    How many different ways do you need to be told: there will be no border on or around the island of Ireland. If you really think the UK government is going to fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    Why would MaxFac at all significant UK ports (including in NI), with no significant Irish border infrastructure, not work ?
    Probably because the technology to make it work does not exist.

    On land borders.
    But ports ?
  • FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,867
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.
    Or accept there will be some sort of border as far as technology allows.

    Now personally I am in favour of a united Ireland but not by imposition. I return to my previous position which is if Ireland and the EU want a hard border then that is their affair. We should simply proceed as if there is no need for one and let them play catch up.
    The lack of political nous in saying so what if there is a border in Ireland is astounding. To be so unaware of what happened in Ireland over the past 10, 40, 400+ years is extraordinary. And all in the pursuit of your blessed Brexit.

    How many different ways do you need to be told: there will be no border on or around the island of Ireland. If you really think the UK government is going to fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    Why would MaxFac at all significant UK ports (including in NI), with no significant Irish border infrastructure, not work ?
    Fianna Fail seems against it as they perceive it would lead to a border.
    A similar system hasn't lead to that in Switzerland. Their concerns should be noted and ignored.
    Another one either oblivious to our recent history or unpatriotic enough not to give a fuck. That said you are young, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
    I cross the Swiss/German border a lot. I've never been stopped and I've never had to make a customs declaration, that's both on foot or in a car.
    I can confirm that crossing the border on a bicycle is also free of bureaucracy. It might have been a different story if I'd been driving a truck or van though.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    tlg86 said:


    How long until it all becomes ancient history? Presumably you have no problem being in a political union with a country that dropped bombs on us and killed thousands of our people.

    And what about Dresden? Are we guiltless?
    Less guilty than the Irish, who remained neutral against the regime that wanted to commit more evil than any other in world history.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    tlg86 said:

    Personally I have a higher opinion of the Irish than most remainers on here. I don't think they'll start killing each other.

    People living on the border don't want any new barriers, however insignificant.

    If infrastructure is vandalised will it be replaced? How many times? Will it be protected by other measures? How far would you go to enforce the new legal status quo?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Elliot said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.
    Or accept there will be some sort of border as far as technology allows.

    Now personally I am in favour of a united Ireland but not by imposition. I return to my previous position which is if Ireland and the EU want a hard border then that is their affair. We should simply proceed as if there is no need for one and let them play catch up.
    The lack of political nous in saying so what if there is a border in Ireland is astounding. To be so unaware of what happened in Ireland over the past 10, 40, 400+ years is extraordinary. And all in the pursuit of your blessed Brexit.

    How many different ways do you need to be told: there will be no border on or around the island of Ireland. If you really think the UK government is going to fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    And you are in for a big letdown.
    You think I will be let down if there is any hint of a return to a troubled island of Ireland? What kind of idiot are you?

    I am saying two things: first, that it would be a huge mistake to fuck with the border; and secondly that precisely because it would be a huge mistake, no UK government will indeed fuck with it.

    My personal feelings have nothing whatsoever to do with it. Meanwhile, your desire for Brexit at any price, would happily see a return of one of the most troubling elements in our society in recent, and not so recent history.
    The people of Northern Ireland have moved on from the toxic attitudes of paramilitarism. I don't see why the rest of us should be held to ransom by a handful of religious bigots that get upset at flags.
    For you also.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Elliot said:

    I don't see why the rest of us should be held to ransom by a handful of religious bigots that get upset at flags.

    Indeed.
    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/856242373483008001
    I've made my distaste for Farage clear on many occasions. He doesn't start riots over it thankfully.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547
    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.
    Or accept there will be some sort of border as far as technology allows.

    Now personally I am in favour of a united Ireland but not by imposition. I return to my previous position which is if Ireland and the EU want a hard border then that is their affair. We should simply proceed as if there is no need for one and let them play catch up.
    The lack of political nous in saying so what if there is a border in Ireland is astounding. To be so unaware of what happened in Ireland over the past 10, 40, 400+ years is extraordinary. And all in the pursuit of your blessed Brexit.

    How many different ways do you need to be told: there will be no border on or around the island of Ireland. If you really think the UK government is going to fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    Why would MaxFac at all significant UK ports (including in NI), with no significant Irish border infrastructure, not work ?
    It depends what you mean by "work". MaxFac doesn't remove the infrastructure. It just means some people get through infrastructure quicker. It is actually more useful at Dover (and at any potential Irish Sea customs posts) than on the Irish land border...
    Precisely.
    I was suggesting >nothing< at the border.
    I misunderstood. That's the NI backstop. The DUP wouldn't be happy if it really happened.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,924

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.
    Or accept there will be some sort of border as far as technology allows.

    Now personally I am in favour of a united Ireland but not by imposition. I return to my previous position which is if Ireland and the EU want a hard border then that is their affair. We should simply proceed as if there is no need for one and let them play catch up.
    The lack of political nous in saying so what if there is a border in Ireland is astounding. To be so unaware of what happened in Ireland over the past 10, 40, 400+ years is extraordinary. And all in the pursuit of your blessed Brexit.

    How many different ways do you need to be told: there will be no border on or around the island of Ireland. If you really think the UK government is going to fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    Why would MaxFac at all significant UK ports (including in NI), with no significant Irish border infrastructure, not work ?
    Fianna Fail seems against it as they perceive it would lead to a border.
    A similar system hasn't lead to that in Switzerland. Their concerns should be noted and ignored.
    Another one either oblivious to our recent history or unpatriotic enough not to give a fuck. That said you are young, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
    I cross the Swiss/German border a lot. I've never been stopped and I've never had to make a customs declaration, that's both on foot or in a car.
    I can confirm that crossing the border on a bicycle is also free of bureaucracy. It might have been a different story if I'd been driving a truck or van though.
    A couple of years ago, visited CERN near Geneva, and walked down the road to cross into France for a hundred yards or so, the customs posts were in situ but unmanned.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    tlg86 said:

    Personally I have a higher opinion of the Irish than most remainers on here. I don't think they'll start killing each other.

    People living on the border don't want any new barriers, however insignificant.

    If infrastructure is vandalised will it be replaced? How many times? Will it be protected by other measures? How far would you go to enforce the new legal status quo?
    Given that the island of Ireland is, err, an island, I wouldn't worry about smuggling. So I wouldn't put up a border on our side. What the EU make RoI do, however, well that's up to them.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972
    Elliot said:

    If we do get a deal with the EU on brexit in name only,which of the brexit ministers Davis,Fox or Johnson will disown it first ?

    None of them.

    If Gove didn’t resign after betraying the fishermen then you’ll be in for a long wait.
    A delay of a windfall by three years is in no way a "betrayal" compared to no windfall at all. You are deliberately pushing a narrative you know to be untrue.
    Leading Tory Leave campaigner Michael Gove slammed by his own MPs over Brexit fishing rights 'betrayal'

    The UK will effectively remain subject to the EU Common Fisheries Policy during the transition period according to the terms of the deal.

    ....Douglas Ross, the MP for Moray, said: "There's no way I can sell this deal in the transitional period as anything like a success to fishing communities in Moray, Scotland or the UK."

    He told Mr Gove that fishing communities in his constituency felt “let down and angered” by the move, .

    He added: “There’s no way I can sell this deal in the transitional period as anything like a success to fishing communities.”

    Ross Thomson said: “I share the disappointment of north-east fisherman - the transition deal falls short of what they hoped for.”

    Conservative Bill Grant asked for guarantees that control of UK seas will “not be sacrificed on the altar of Brexit”.

    While Tory former minister John Redwood urged Theresa May to challenge EU leaders over the planned pact when she meets them in Brussels on Thursday.

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/leading-leave-campaigner-environment-secretary-12222609

    Ruth Davidson has warned Theresa May her Scottish MPs will oppose a final Brexit deal that fails to bring back control of Britain’s waters as the Tories were accused of betraying the fishing industry in the transition agreement.

    The Scottish Conservative leader said the fact the EU will continue negotiating fishing rights in UK waters during the two-year transition was an “undoubted disappointment”.

    Scottish fishing leaders described the deal as “far short” of acceptable, while the Fishing for Leave campaign group accused David Davis of an “abject, disgusting betrayal” and demanded both he and Mrs May resign.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/19/ruth-davidson-warns-pm-protect-fishing-final-brexit-deal-transition/
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.
    Or accept there will be some sort of border as far as technology allows.

    Now personally I am in favour of a united Ireland but not by imposition. I return to my previous position which is if Ireland and the EU want a hard border then that is their affair. We should simply proceed as if there is no need for one and let them play catch up.
    The lack of political nous in saying so what if there is a border in Ireland is astounding. To be so unaware of what happened in Ireland over the past 10, 40, 400+ years is extraordinary. And all in the pursuit of your blessed Brexit.

    How many different ways do you need to be told: there will be no border on or around the island of Ireland. If you really think the UK government is going to fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    And you are in for a big letdown.
    history.
    The people of Northern Ireland have moved on from the toxic attitudes of paramilitarism. I don't see why the rest of us should be held to ransom by a handful of religious bigots that get upset at flags.
    For you also.
    "The overwhelming majority of nationalists support Sinn Féin’s peace strategy and vote in increasing numbers for that party despite constant accusations from ONH and other republican dissidents that the movement Gerry Adams and the late Martin McGuinness helped to shape had “sold out” on traditional republican principles."
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Elliot said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.
    Or accept there will be some sort of border as far as technology allows.

    Now personally I am in favour of a united Ireland but not by imposition. I return to my previous position which is if Ireland and the EU want a hard border then that is their affair. We should simply proceed as if there is no need for one and let them play catch up.
    The lack of political nous in saying so what if there is a border in Ireland is astounding. To be so unaware of what happened in Ireland over the past 10, 40, 400+ years is extraordinary. And all in the pursuit of your blessed Brexit.

    How many different ways do you need to be told: there will be no border on or around the island of Ireland. If you really think the UK government is going to fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    And you are in for a big letdown.
    history.
    The people of Northern Ireland have moved on from the toxic attitudes of paramilitarism. I don't see why the rest of us should be held to ransom by a handful of religious bigots that get upset at flags.
    For you also.
    "The overwhelming majority of nationalists support Sinn Féin’s peace strategy and vote in increasing numbers for that party despite constant accusations from ONH and other republican dissidents that the movement Gerry Adams and the late Martin McGuinness helped to shape had “sold out” on traditional republican principles."
    Yes. Exactly. Until we get a border between the 26 and the six counties. What a recruiting sergeant.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    I don't see why the rest of us should be held to ransom by a handful of religious bigots that get upset at flags.

    Indeed.
    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/856242373483008001
    I've made my distaste for Farage clear on many occasions. He doesn't start riots over it thankfully.
    When he said he would "don khaki and pick up his rifle" if he didn't get his Brexit, he was just having a lark?
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    If we do get a deal with the EU on brexit in name only,which of the brexit ministers Davis,Fox or Johnson will disown it first ?

    None of them.

    If Gove didn’t resign after betraying the fishermen then you’ll be in for a long wait.
    You better hope the word betrayal doesn't start appearing next to the Tory party name,nice to know you think it is.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Elliot said:

    If we do get a deal with the EU on brexit in name only,which of the brexit ministers Davis,Fox or Johnson will disown it first ?

    None of them.

    If Gove didn’t resign after betraying the fishermen then you’ll be in for a long wait.
    A delay of a windfall by three years is in no way a "betrayal" compared to no windfall at all. You are deliberately pushing a narrative you know to be untrue.
    Leading Tory Leave campaigner Michael Gove slammed by his own MPs over Brexit fishing rights 'betrayal'

    Scottish fishing leaders described the deal as “far short” of acceptable, while the Fishing for Leave campaign group accused David Davis of an “abject, disgusting betrayal” and demanded both he and Mrs May resign.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/19/ruth-davidson-warns-pm-protect-fishing-final-brexit-deal-transition/
    Faragist group called it a betrayal and everyone else said it was disappointing and wanted guarantees on the final deal.
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 1,752

    tlg86 said:


    How long until it all becomes ancient history? Presumably you have no problem being in a political union with a country that dropped bombs on us and killed thousands of our people.

    And what about Dresden? Are we guiltless?
    Basil Fawlty: Is there something wrong?
    German Guest: Will you stop talking about the war?
    Basil Fawlty: Me? You started it.
    German Guest: We did not!
    Basil Fawlty: Yes, you did. You invaded Poland!
    On a related matter, is anyone going to tonight's Dambusters 75th anniversary gala screening at the Albert Hall or (like me) a live screening at this local cinema? Looking forward to the spanking new 4k digital print.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Personally I have a higher opinion of the Irish than most remainers on here. I don't think they'll start killing each other.

    People living on the border don't want any new barriers, however insignificant.

    If infrastructure is vandalised will it be replaced? How many times? Will it be protected by other measures? How far would you go to enforce the new legal status quo?
    Given that the island of Ireland is, err, an island, I wouldn't worry about smuggling. So I wouldn't put up a border on our side. What the EU make RoI do, however, well that's up to them.
    De facto what you'd be doing is saying that 'their side' starts at the coast, and it wouldn't be long before that became the de jure position too.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    Do you think I should attend this?

    Labour MP Jared O’Mara, who sang about “smashing” women “in the face”, called a constituent an “ugly bitch”, asked Girls Aloud for an “orgy”, said fat women don’t “deserve our respect”, talked about “taking your mum’s virginity” and “receiving fellatio” from Angelina Jolie, wrote about “sexy little slags” being “fingered” and told a woman “I’d lay on your rack any day”, is hosting a coffee and cake party celebrating female equality in his Sheffield Hallam constituency next month.

    https://order-order.com/2018/05/17/jared-omara-hosting-women-equality-cake-coffee-party/

    Heaven has a place for a sinner who has repented! Glad to hear of his reformed character.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972
    edited May 2018

    If we do get a deal with the EU on brexit in name only,which of the brexit ministers Davis,Fox or Johnson will disown it first ?

    None of them.

    If Gove didn’t resign after betraying the fishermen then you’ll be in for a long wait.
    You better hope the word betrayal doesn't start appearing next to the Tory party name,nice to know you think it is.
    It is economical and political gravity kicking in.

    The Tories will be able to frame it as the sound economic choice, call it the long term economic plan if you like.

    Boris has set the ground with talk of an amnesty for illegal immigrants.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.
    catch up.
    The lack of political nous in saying so what if there is a border in Ireland is astounding. To be so unaware of what happened in Ireland over the past 10, 40, 400+ years is extraordinary. And all in the pursuit of your blessed Brexit.

    How many different ways do you need to be told: there will be no border on or around the island of Ireland. If you really think the UK government is going to fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    And you are in for a big letdown.
    history.
    The people of Northern Ireland have moved on from the toxic attitudes of paramilitarism. I don't see why the rest of us should be held to ransom by a handful of religious bigots that get upset at flags.
    For you also.
    "The overwhelming majority of nationalists support Sinn Féin’s peace strategy and vote in increasing numbers for that party despite constant accusations from ONH and other republican dissidents that the movement Gerry Adams and the late Martin McGuinness helped to shape had “sold out” on traditional republican principles."
    Yes. Exactly. Until we get a border between the 26 and the six counties. What a recruiting sergeant.
    A border consisting of some security cameras and some lorry parks. There is worse in my local petrol station. Now perhaps a few idiots behave stupidly over it but the vast majority of people have moved on. Perhaps you think we should be held to ransom by those few idiots, but I don't.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    I don't see why the rest of us should be held to ransom by a handful of religious bigots that get upset at flags.

    Indeed.
    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/856242373483008001
    I've made my distaste for Farage clear on many occasions. He doesn't start riots over it thankfully.
    When he said he would "don khaki and pick up his rifle" if he didn't get his Brexit, he was just having a lark?
    You think he is going to actually do that?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Elliot said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.
    catch up.
    The lack of political nous in saying so what if there is a border in Ireland is astounding. To be so unaware of what happened in Ireland over the past 10, 40, 400+ years is extraordinary. And all in the pursuit of your blessed Brexit.

    How many different ways do you need to be told: there will be no border on or around the island of Ireland. If you really think the UK government is going to fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    And you are in for a big letdown.
    history.
    The people of Northern Ireland have moved on from the toxic attitudes of paramilitarism. I don't see why the rest of us should be held to ransom by a handful of religious bigots that get upset at flags.
    For you also.
    "The overwhelming majority of nationalists support Sinn Féin’s peace strategy and vote in increasing numbers for that party despite constant accusations from ONH and other republican dissidents that the movement Gerry Adams and the late Martin McGuinness helped to shape had “sold out” on traditional republican principles."
    Yes. Exactly. Until we get a border between the 26 and the six counties. What a recruiting sergeant.
    A border consisting of some security cameras and some lorry parks. There is worse in my local petrol station. Now perhaps a few idiots behave stupidly over it but the vast majority of people have moved on. Perhaps you think we should be held to ransom by those few idiots, but I don't.
    If that's your proposal it would be fair to be upfront about it and ask people in Northern Ireland if they want it. You could call it a border poll. Is now the right time for that?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Personally I have a higher opinion of the Irish than most remainers on here. I don't think they'll start killing each other.

    People living on the border don't want any new barriers, however insignificant.

    If infrastructure is vandalised will it be replaced? How many times? Will it be protected by other measures? How far would you go to enforce the new legal status quo?
    Given that the island of Ireland is, err, an island, I wouldn't worry about smuggling. So I wouldn't put up a border on our side. What the EU make RoI do, however, well that's up to them.
    And so you decide, in full control of your control, not to have any borders. The EU has two options. Put up a border between EU (Eire) and NI - in which case listen to Fianna Fail and, for that matter, Theresa May. Or not put up any border, be super happy with regulatory alignment (because that will be the only circumstances under which it is considered) and wait to hear from the DUP on what would be in effect a de facto united Ireland with a border in the Irish Sea between that entity and the UK.

    But it's all academic. The more anyone sane thinks about it, the more we are going to have to stay in the Customs Union.

    Now I am first to believe that some kind of fudge will emerge (a known unknown) but I am damned if I can work out what it will be.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972
    Shout out to the person who thought playing a day night match in Manchester in the middle of May was a good idea.

    PS - Why are Lancashire wearing green?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    Elliot said:

    I don't see why the rest of us should be held to ransom by a handful of religious bigots that get upset at flags.

    Indeed.
    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/856242373483008001
    I've made my distaste for Farage clear on many occasions. He doesn't start riots over it thankfully.
    When he said he would "don khaki and pick up his rifle" if he didn't get his Brexit, he was just having a lark?
    You think he is going to actually do that?
    No, but some people who follow him might.

    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-security-farright/police-arrest-four-including-soldiers-over-suspected-far-right-terrorism-idUKKCN1BG1BN
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    sarissa said:

    tlg86 said:


    How long until it all becomes ancient history? Presumably you have no problem being in a political union with a country that dropped bombs on us and killed thousands of our people.

    And what about Dresden? Are we guiltless?
    Basil Fawlty: Is there something wrong?
    German Guest: Will you stop talking about the war?
    Basil Fawlty: Me? You started it.
    German Guest: We did not!
    Basil Fawlty: Yes, you did. You invaded Poland!
    On a related matter, is anyone going to tonight's Dambusters 75th anniversary gala screening at the Albert Hall or (like me) a live screening at this local cinema? Looking forward to the spanking new 4k digital print.
    PB Tories continue to reminisce about a past none of them are old enough to have known.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Elliot said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.
    catch up.
    The lack of political nous in saying so what if there is a border in Ireland is astounding. To be so unaware of what happened in Ireland over the past 10, 40, 400+ years is extraordinary. And all in the pursuit of your blessed Brexit.

    How many different ways do you need to be told: there will be no border on or around the island of Ireland. If you really think the UK government is going to fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    And you are in for a big letdown.
    history.
    The people of Northern Ireland have moved on from the toxic attitudes of paramilitarism. I don't see why the rest of us should be held to ransom by a handful of religious bigots that get upset at flags.
    For you also.
    "The overwhelming majority of nationalists support Sinn Féin’s peace strategy and vote in increasing numbers for that party despite constant accusations from ONH and other republican dissidents that the movement Gerry Adams and the late Martin McGuinness helped to shape had “sold out” on traditional republican principles."
    Yes. Exactly. Until we get a border between the 26 and the six counties. What a recruiting sergeant.
    A border consisting of some security cameras and some lorry parks. There is worse in my local petrol station. Now perhaps a few idiots behave stupidly over it but the vast majority of people have moved on. Perhaps you think we should be held to ransom by those few idiots, but I don't.
    Ireland more or less has always been at the mercy of "a few idiots". A lot easier to dismiss them on here than in the real world, as everyone from Lloyd George onwards (including Michael Collins) has found out.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Personally I have a higher opinion of the Irish than most remainers on here. I don't think they'll start killing each other.

    People living on the border don't want any new barriers, however insignificant.

    If infrastructure is vandalised will it be replaced? How many times? Will it be protected by other measures? How far would you go to enforce the new legal status quo?
    Given that the island of Ireland is, err, an island, I wouldn't worry about smuggling. So I wouldn't put up a border on our side. What the EU make RoI do, however, well that's up to them.
    De facto what you'd be doing is saying that 'their side' starts at the coast, and it wouldn't be long before that became the de jure position too.
    Zactly.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    sarissa said:

    tlg86 said:


    How long until it all becomes ancient history? Presumably you have no problem being in a political union with a country that dropped bombs on us and killed thousands of our people.

    And what about Dresden? Are we guiltless?
    Basil Fawlty: Is there something wrong?
    German Guest: Will you stop talking about the war?
    Basil Fawlty: Me? You started it.
    German Guest: We did not!
    Basil Fawlty: Yes, you did. You invaded Poland!
    On a related matter, is anyone going to tonight's Dambusters 75th anniversary gala screening at the Albert Hall or (like me) a live screening at this local cinema? Looking forward to the spanking new 4k digital print.
    I bet they leave out the dog.
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Personally I have a higher opinion of the Irish than most remainers on here. I don't think they'll start killing each other.

    People living on the border don't want any new barriers, however insignificant.

    If infrastructure is vandalised will it be replaced? How many times? Will it be protected by other measures? How far would you go to enforce the new legal status quo?
    Given that the island of Ireland is, err, an island, I wouldn't worry about smuggling. So I wouldn't put up a border on our side. What the EU make RoI do, however, well that's up to them.
    And so you decide, in full control of your control, not to have any borders. The EU has two options. Put up a border between EU (Eire) and NI - in which case listen to Fianna Fail and, for that matter, Theresa May. Or not put up any border, be super happy with regulatory alignment (because that will be the only circumstances under which it is considered) and wait to hear from the DUP on what would be in effect a de facto united Ireland with a border in the Irish Sea between that entity and the UK.

    But it's all academic. The more anyone sane thinks about it, the more we are going to have to stay in the Customs Union.

    Now I am first to believe that some kind of fudge will emerge (a known unknown) but I am damned if I can work out what it will be.
    The fudge will be "a" customs union which would look remarkably similar to "the" customs union.

    If the UK does not put up a border between NI and IE, then there will be customs checks the various ports in England, Wales and Scotland with links to NI and, of course, IE.

    So, the Irish sea will be the border. May has already conceded this with "no regulatory divergence" on the island of Ireland.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    tlg86 said:


    How long until it all becomes ancient history? Presumably you have no problem being in a political union with a country that dropped bombs on us and killed thousands of our people.

    And what about Dresden? Are we guiltless?
    Whilst I agree that we should not dwell on the past nor use it to justify current actions, this sort of moral equivalency is pretty sick.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    surby said:

    TOPPING said:

    tlg86 said:

    tlg86 said:

    Personally I have a higher opinion of the Irish than most remainers on here. I don't think they'll start killing each other.

    People living on the border don't want any new barriers, however insignificant.

    If infrastructure is vandalised will it be replaced? How many times? Will it be protected by other measures? How far would you go to enforce the new legal status quo?
    Given that the island of Ireland is, err, an island, I wouldn't worry about smuggling. So I wouldn't put up a border on our side. What the EU make RoI do, however, well that's up to them.
    And so you decide, in full control of your control, not to have any borders. The EU has two options. Put up a border between EU (Eire) and NI - in which case listen to Fianna Fail and, for that matter, Theresa May. Or not put up any border, be super happy with regulatory alignment (because that will be the only circumstances under which it is considered) and wait to hear from the DUP on what would be in effect a de facto united Ireland with a border in the Irish Sea between that entity and the UK.

    But it's all academic. The more anyone sane thinks about it, the more we are going to have to stay in the Customs Union.

    Now I am first to believe that some kind of fudge will emerge (a known unknown) but I am damned if I can work out what it will be.
    The fudge will be "a" customs union which would look remarkably similar to "the" customs union.

    If the UK does not put up a border between NI and IE, then there will be customs checks the various ports in England, Wales and Scotland with links to NI and, of course, IE.

    So, the Irish sea will be the border. May has already conceded this with "no regulatory divergence" on the island of Ireland.
    Yes I suppose so - but what will Arlene say?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    Scott_P said:

    MaxPB said:

    the EU accounts for just 14% of global GDP, extracting further economic gain out of that 14% to the exclusion of the rest has never made any sense. Staying in the customs union guarantees that outcome.

    No it doesn't. This is why all of your analysis is completely and utterly flawed.

    The EU is signing trade deals with the rest of the World, and as members we get our share of that.

    Being a member gives us more clout in the negotiations, and always has.
    Exactly.
    Exactly wrong.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547

    sarissa said:

    tlg86 said:


    How long until it all becomes ancient history? Presumably you have no problem being in a political union with a country that dropped bombs on us and killed thousands of our people.

    And what about Dresden? Are we guiltless?
    Basil Fawlty: Is there something wrong?
    German Guest: Will you stop talking about the war?
    Basil Fawlty: Me? You started it.
    German Guest: We did not!
    Basil Fawlty: Yes, you did. You invaded Poland!
    On a related matter, is anyone going to tonight's Dambusters 75th anniversary gala screening at the Albert Hall or (like me) a live screening at this local cinema? Looking forward to the spanking new 4k digital print.
    PB Tories continue to reminisce about a past none of them are old enough to have known.
    The endless nostalgia for wartime derring-do is ridiculous, and what's more it is not the way in which those who actually lived through it would behave. I grew up in the 1960s and 1970s when anyone much over 30 could remember the war but there was far less talk of it at that time than there is today. I cannot remember any form of remembrance ceremony at school, the older generation regarded the war as a terrible experience best left in the past and few ever spoke of it. We could do well to follow that example today.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Brexitism rests on several fallacies, which are recited ad nauseum on here.

    1. The fallacy of opportunity.
    This is the idea that because the EU is “only” c48% of our trade - and in relative decline, we should leave to take advantage of other opportunities. It ignores the fact that EU FTAs comprise a further c20% of our trade, not to mention the clear counterexample of Germany’s export success.

    2. The fallacy of independence.
    This is the idea that we too can be Norway - who is tightly integrated with the EU via EFTA, or Switzerland - ditto via bespoke and contentious FTAs - while pursuing a “WTO” Brexit. In reality, the U.K. must and will have a close relationship with the EU.

    3. The fallacy of individuality.
    This is the idea that we are better negotiating trade deals alone for ourselves than diluting our demands with 27 other countries. It ignores the clear advantages of negotiating clout that accrue as part of a global trading superpower.

    4. The fallacy of unemployment.
    This is the claim that the EU is detrimental to the U.K. because of high rates of unemployment in the Med countries. The connection between the £-based U.K. economy, and the €-based economies is never made.

    5. The fallacy of democracy.
    This is the claim that the EU is somehow not democratic. First, this ignores both the role of the EU parliament, which needs to approve key appointments and initiatives of the EU Commission. Second, it is naive. An elected EU President and Commission (which is what is implied) would create a real alternative powerbase in Opposition to the nation states. No nation wants this is as it would be a real step toward a federal superstate.

    6. The fallacy of protectionism.
    This is the tenet that the EU is a protectionist cartel, ignoring that it has more FTAs than any other international entity, not to mention the significant arrangements with much of Africa and the Caribbean due to special provision for former colonies.

    Have I missed any?
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.
    Or accept there will be some sort of border as far as technology allows.

    Now personally I am in favour of a united Ireland but not by imposition. I return to my previous position which is if Ireland and the EU want a hard border then that is their affair. We should simply proceed as if there is no need for one and let them play catch up.
    The lack of political nous in saying so what if there is a border in Ireland is astounding. To be so unaware of what happened in Ireland over the past 10, 40, 400+ years is extraordinary. And all in the pursuit of your blessed Brexit.

    How many different ways do you need to be told: there will be no border on or around the island of Ireland. If you really think the UK government is going to fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    Why would MaxFac at all significant UK ports (including in NI), with no significant Irish border infrastructure, not work ?
    Fianna Fail seems against it as they perceive it would lead to a border.
    A similar system hasn't lead to that in Switzerland. Their concerns should be noted and ignored.
    Another one either oblivious to our recent history or unpatriotic enough not to give a fuck. That said you are young, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
    I cross the Swiss/German border a lot. I've never been stopped and I've never had to make a customs declaration, that's both on foot or in a car.
    Our car was stopped along the Swiss-French border. Only for a cursory inspection of the booth.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972

    sarissa said:

    tlg86 said:


    How long until it all becomes ancient history? Presumably you have no problem being in a political union with a country that dropped bombs on us and killed thousands of our people.

    And what about Dresden? Are we guiltless?
    Basil Fawlty: Is there something wrong?
    German Guest: Will you stop talking about the war?
    Basil Fawlty: Me? You started it.
    German Guest: We did not!
    Basil Fawlty: Yes, you did. You invaded Poland!
    On a related matter, is anyone going to tonight's Dambusters 75th anniversary gala screening at the Albert Hall or (like me) a live screening at this local cinema? Looking forward to the spanking new 4k digital print.
    I bet they leave out the dog.
    If you love dogs there's a three part special about a dog starting this Sunday on BBC1 at 9pm.

    A Very English Scandal about a dog called Rinka.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Scott_P said:

    MaxPB said:

    the EU accounts for just 14% of global GDP, extracting further economic gain out of that 14% to the exclusion of the rest has never made any sense. Staying in the customs union guarantees that outcome.

    No it doesn't. This is why all of your analysis is completely and utterly flawed.

    The EU is signing trade deals with the rest of the World, and as members we get our share of that.

    Being a member gives us more clout in the negotiations, and always has.
    Exactly.
    Exactly wrong.
    Nah, Richard - you're on the wrong side of this one.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    tlg86 said:


    How long until it all becomes ancient history? Presumably you have no problem being in a political union with a country that dropped bombs on us and killed thousands of our people.

    And what about Dresden? Are we guiltless?
    Whilst I agree that we should not dwell on the past nor use it to justify current actions, this sort of moral equivalency is pretty sick.
    Another one falls for Goebel's line that a major rail junction 60 miles from the front line with the Soviets was of no military value.....Berlin endured much heavier bombing with much lower casualties.....nothing to do with local preparedness of course.....
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    TOPPING said:

    Scott_P said:

    MaxPB said:

    the EU accounts for just 14% of global GDP, extracting further economic gain out of that 14% to the exclusion of the rest has never made any sense. Staying in the customs union guarantees that outcome.

    No it doesn't. This is why all of your analysis is completely and utterly flawed.

    The EU is signing trade deals with the rest of the World, and as members we get our share of that.

    Being a member gives us more clout in the negotiations, and always has.
    Exactly.
    Exactly wrong.
    Nah, Richard - you're on the wrong side of this one.
    Richard is a purist.
    His vision for Brexit includes Scottish and Irish (and maybe Welsh) independence and completely unlimited immigration.

    From his East Midlands eyrie it probably makes sense, but it would attract about three votes if ever put to the public. He’s a pound shop Nick Timothy.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    edited May 2018

    Brexitism rests on several fallacies, which are recited ad nauseum on here.

    [snip]

    Have I missed any?

    7. The fallacy of exceptionalism.
    This is the tenet that the EU might be fine for them, but Britain is just too special for it.

    8. The fallacy of power.
    This is the idea that Brexit would be a negotiation of equals and that the EU would be running round at the behest of German carmakers to offer us whatever we want.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,924
    Elliot said:

    tlg86 said:


    How long until it all becomes ancient history? Presumably you have no problem being in a political union with a country that dropped bombs on us and killed thousands of our people.

    And what about Dresden? Are we guiltless?
    Less guilty than the Irish, who remained neutral against the regime that wanted to commit more evil than any other in world history.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dublin_in_World_War_II
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774

    Elliot said:

    I don't see why the rest of us should be held to ransom by a handful of religious bigots that get upset at flags.

    Indeed.
    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/856242373483008001
    That he isn't afraid of showing his desired direction of travel, unlike British politicians who pursued EU integration by stealth?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584
    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.
    Or accept there will be some sort of border as far as technology allows.

    Now personally I am in favour of a united Ireland but not by imposition. I return to my previous position which is if Ireland and the EU want a hard border then that is their affair. We should simply proceed as if there is no need for one and let them play catch up.
    The lack of political nous in saying so what if there is a border in Ireland is astounding. To be so unaware of what happened in Ireland over the past 10, 40, 400+ years is extraordinary. And all in the pursuit of your blessed Brexit.

    How many different ways do you need to be told: there will be no border on or around the island of Ireland. If you really think the UK government is going to fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    Why would MaxFac at all significant UK ports (including in NI), with no significant Irish border infrastructure, not work ?
    It depends what you mean by "work". MaxFac doesn't remove the infrastructure. It just means some people get through infrastructure quicker. It is actually more useful at Dover (and at any potential Irish Sea customs posts) than on the Irish land border...
    Precisely.
    I was suggesting >nothing< at the border.
    I misunderstood. That's the NI backstop. The DUP wouldn't be happy if it really happened.
    Why ?
    It needn't be a de facto border between GB and Northern Ireland - just applying the same rules at >all< UK ports, without discrimination, in order to satisfy the EU's pencil-heads.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584
    That's hardly news - unless they are claiming it was only in 2016...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.
    Or accept there will be some sort of border as far as technology allows.

    Now personally I am in favour of a united Ireland but not by imposition. I return to my previous position which is if Ireland and the EU want a hard border then that is their affair. We should simply proceed as if there is no need for one and let them play catch up.
    The lack of political nous in saying so what if there is a border in Ireland is astounding. To be so unaware of what happened in Ireland over the past 10, 40, 400+ years is extraordinary. And all in the pursuit of your blessed Brexit.

    How many different ways do you need to be told: there will be no border on or around the island of Ireland. If you really think the UK government is going to fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    Why would MaxFac at all significant UK ports (including in NI), with no significant Irish border infrastructure, not work ?
    It depends what you mean by "work". MaxFac doesn't remove the infrastructure. It just means some people get through infrastructure quicker. It is actually more useful at Dover (and at any potential Irish Sea customs posts) than on the Irish land border...
    Precisely.
    I was suggesting >nothing< at the border.
    I misunderstood. That's the NI backstop. The DUP wouldn't be happy if it really happened.
    Why ?
    It needn't be a de facto border between GB and Northern Ireland - just applying the same rules at >all< UK ports, without discrimination, in order to satisfy the EU's pencil-heads.
    The DUP has already taken any hint of an Irish Sea border off the table.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414

    sarissa said:

    tlg86 said:


    How long until it all becomes ancient history? Presumably you have no problem being in a political union with a country that dropped bombs on us and killed thousands of our people.

    And what about Dresden? Are we guiltless?
    Basil Fawlty: Is there something wrong?
    German Guest: Will you stop talking about the war?
    Basil Fawlty: Me? You started it.
    German Guest: We did not!
    Basil Fawlty: Yes, you did. You invaded Poland!
    On a related matter, is anyone going to tonight's Dambusters 75th anniversary gala screening at the Albert Hall or (like me) a live screening at this local cinema? Looking forward to the spanking new 4k digital print.
    I bet they leave out the dog.
    If you love dogs there's a three part special about a dog starting this Sunday on BBC1 at 9pm.

    A Very English Scandal about a dog called Rinka.
    Actually if you love dogs you might want to give that one a miss!

    *spoiler alert*

    The dog doesn't live happily ever after....
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    rcs1000 said:

    Elliot said:

    I don't see why the rest of us should be held to ransom by a handful of religious bigots that get upset at flags.

    Indeed.
    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/856242373483008001
    That he isn't afraid of showing his desired direction of travel, unlike British politicians who pursued EU integration by stealth?
    I think that's unfair to British politicians. If they had been doing that, we'd never have held the referendum in the first place. Their problem was more profound than that - a kind of false consciousness whereby they convinced themselves that we had an arms length relationship with the EU and weren't really that dependent on our relationships within it.

    Hopefully after Brexit is reversed this will end and we'll start to see the EU flag flying alongside the Union Jack in the same way other member states do.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547

    Brexitism rests on several fallacies, which are recited ad nauseum on here.

    1. The fallacy of opportunity.
    This is the idea that because the EU is “only” c48% of our trade - and in relative decline, we should leave to take advantage of other opportunities. It ignores the fact that EU FTAs comprise a further c20% of our trade, not to mention the clear counterexample of Germany’s export success.

    2. The fallacy of independence.
    This is the idea that we too can be Norway - who is tightly integrated with the EU via EFTA, or Switzerland - ditto via bespoke and contentious FTAs - while pursuing a “WTO” Brexit. In reality, the U.K. must and will have a close relationship with the EU.

    3. The fallacy of individuality.
    This is the idea that we are better negotiating trade deals alone for ourselves than diluting our demands with 27 other countries. It ignores the clear advantages of negotiating clout that accrue as part of a global trading superpower.

    4. The fallacy of unemployment.
    This is the claim that the EU is detrimental to the U.K. because of high rates of unemployment in the Med countries. The connection between the £-based U.K. economy, and the €-based economies is never made.

    5. The fallacy of democracy.
    This is the claim that the EU is somehow not democratic. First, this ignores both the role of the EU parliament, which needs to approve key appointments and initiatives of the EU Commission. Second, it is naive. An elected EU President and Commission (which is what is implied) would create a real alternative powerbase in Opposition to the nation states. No nation wants this is as it would be a real step toward a federal superstate.

    6. The fallacy of protectionism.
    This is the tenet that the EU is a protectionist cartel, ignoring that it has more FTAs than any other international entity, not to mention the significant arrangements with much of Africa and the Caribbean due to special provision for former colonies.

    Have I missed any?

    The fallacy that the EU's interest lies primarily in a good trading deal with the UK. Although that is a desirable thing, its first priority is the integrity of its system and the value of membership. Both of which Brexit threatens.

    The fallacy that divergence is better than compliance. Compliance enables trade and has value.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547
    surby said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.
    Or accept there will be some sort of border as far as technology allows.

    Now personally I am in favour of a united Ireland but not by imposition. I return to my previous position which is if Ireland and the EU want a hard border then that is their affair. We should simply proceed as if there is no need for one and let them play catch up.
    The lack of political nous in saying so what if there is a border in Ireland is astounding. To be so unaware of what happened in Ireland over the past 10, 40, 400+ years is extraordinary. And all in the pursuit of your blessed Brexit.

    How many different ways do you need to be told: there will be no border on or around the island of Ireland. If you really think the UK government is going to fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    Why would MaxFac at all significant UK ports (including in NI), with no significant Irish border infrastructure, not work ?
    Fianna Fail seems against it as they perceive it would lead to a border.
    A similar system hasn't lead to that in Switzerland. Their concerns should be noted and ignored.
    Another one either oblivious to our recent history or unpatriotic enough not to give a fuck. That said you are young, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
    I cross the Swiss/German border a lot. I've never been stopped and I've never had to make a customs declaration, that's both on foot or in a car.
    Our car was stopped along the Swiss-French border. Only for a cursory inspection of the booth.
    There's pretty major border infrastructure on the motorway between Annecy and Geneva - all traffic was stopped there when I went through a few months ago. Inspection was fairly cursory but a frictionless border it isn't.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584
    edited May 2018
    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.
    Or aproceed as if there is no need for one and let them play catch up.
    The lack of political nous in saying so what if there is a border in Ireland is astounding. To be so unaware of what happened in Ireland over the past 10, 40, 400+ years is extraordinary. And all in the pursuit of your blessed Brexit.

    How many different ways do you need to be told: there will be no border on or around the island of Ireland. If you really think the UK government is going to fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    Why would MaxFac at all significant UK ports (including in NI), with no significant Irish border infrastructure, not work ?
    It depends what you mean by "work". MaxFac doesn't remove the infrastructure. It just means some people get through infrastructure quicker. It is actually more useful at Dover (and at any potential Irish Sea customs posts) than on the Irish land border...
    Precisely.
    I was suggesting >nothing< at the border.
    I misunderstood. That's the NI backstop. The DUP wouldn't be happy if it really happened.
    Why ?
    It needn't be a de facto border between GB and Northern Ireland - just applying the same rules at >all< UK ports, without discrimination, in order to satisfy the EU's pencil-heads.
    The DUP has already taken any hint of an Irish Sea border off the table.
    Not a border - simply a record of trade flows through all UK ports.
    Would apply equally to traffic between (say) Liverpool and Bristol.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.
    Or aproceed as if there is no need for one and let them play catch up.
    The lack of political nous in saying so what if there is a border in Ireland is astounding. To be so unaware of what happened in Ireland over the past 10, 40, 400+ years is extraordinary. And all in the pursuit of your blessed Brexit.

    How many different ways do you need to be told: there will be no border on or around the island of Ireland. If you really think the UK government is going to fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    Why would MaxFac at all significant UK ports (including in NI), with no significant Irish border infrastructure, not work ?
    It depends what you mean by "work". MaxFac doesn't remove the infrastructure. It just means some people get through infrastructure quicker. It is actually more useful at Dover (and at any potential Irish Sea customs posts) than on the Irish land border...
    Precisely.
    I was suggesting >nothing< at the border.
    I misunderstood. That's the NI backstop. The DUP wouldn't be happy if it really happened.
    Why ?
    It needn't be a de facto border between GB and Northern Ireland - just applying the same rules at >all< UK ports, without discrimination, in order to satisfy the EU's pencil-heads.
    The DUP has already taken any hint of an Irish Sea border off the table.
    Not a border - simply a record of trade flows through all UK ports.
    Would apply equally to traffic between (say) Liverpool and Bristol.
    Yep I get that but at some point there would need to be eg. Rules of Origin details made known otherwise there would be the opportunity for regulatory arbitrage.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    And of course the political implication of this is that the time-limited, potentially renewable period will almost certainly take in the next GE and a possible Lab govt who will then enshrine it forever more.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    I read that this morning. It really is very interesting and shows why the working classes are voting the way they are.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584
    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.
    Or aproceed as if there is no need for one and let them play catch up.
    fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    Why would MaxFac at all significant UK ports (including in NI), with no significant Irish border infrastructure, not work ?
    It depends what you mean by "work". MaxFac doesn't remove the infrastructure. It just means some people get through infrastructure quicker. It is actually more useful at Dover (and at any potential Irish Sea customs posts) than on the Irish land border...
    Precisely.
    I was suggesting >nothing< at the border.
    I misunderstood. That's the NI backstop. The DUP wouldn't be happy if it really happened.
    Why ?
    It needn't be a de facto border between GB and Northern Ireland - just applying the same rules at >all< UK ports, without discrimination, in order to satisfy the EU's pencil-heads.
    The DUP has already taken any hint of an Irish Sea border off the table.
    Not a border - simply a record of trade flows through all UK ports.
    Would apply equally to traffic between (say) Liverpool and Bristol.
    Yep I get that but at some point there would need to be eg. Rules of Origin details made known otherwise there would be the opportunity for regulatory arbitrage.
    Indeed - but that still doesn't mean any kind of border between NI and rUK. It does mean a whole load of work (either developing expensive solutions, or actual work), and would be something of a PITA - but it does square the circle.
    And it leaves a certain amount of room for fudge, if the flow of goods isn't massive.

    In any event, don't blame me - I voted remain.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    FF43 said:

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single marke Ireland.
    Or aproceed as if there is no need for one and let them play catch up.
    fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    Why would MaxFac at all significant UK ports (including in NI), with no significant Irish border infrastructure, not work ?
    It depends what you mean by "work". MaxFac doesn't remove the infrastructure. It just means some people get through infrastructure quicker. It is actually more useful at Dover (and at any potential Irish Sea customs posts) than on the Irish land border...
    Precisely.
    I was suggesting >nothing< at the border.
    I misunderstood. That's the NI backstop. The DUP wouldn't be happy if it really happened.
    Why ?
    It needn't be a de facto border between GB and Northern Ireland - just applying the same rules at >all< UK ports, without discrimination, in order to satisfy the EU's pencil-heads.
    The DUP has already taken any hint of an Irish Sea border off the table.
    Not a border - simply a record of trade flows through all UK ports.
    Would apply equally to traffic between (say) Liverpool and Bristol.
    Yep I get that but at some point there would need to be eg. Rules of Origin details made known otherwise there would be the opportunity for regulatory arbitrage.
    Indeed - but that still doesn't mean any kind of border between NI and rUK. It does mean a whole load of work (either developing expensive solutions, or actual work), and would be something of a PITA - but it does square the circle.
    And it leaves a certain amount of room for fudge, if the flow of goods isn't massive.

    In any event, don't blame me - I voted remain.

    :smile:
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    In the same room as the original Good Friday agreement here
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Interestingly no DUP signatories....
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    No Paisley !
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    So the UK will end up in position in which it continues to suffer most of the disadvantages of EU membership but enjoys few of the advantages. The exact opposite of the prospectus offered by Leave at the referendum.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Pulpstar said:

    No Paisley !

    Are you live blogging something?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Brexitism rests on several fallacies, which are recited ad nauseum on here.

    [snip]

    Have I missed any?

    7. The fallacy of exceptionalism.
    This is the tenet that the EU might be fine for them, but Britain is just too special for it.

    That may be your reading of it. Another reading is that Britain - by virtue of a very different legal and political culture (and history) - is different to (not better or more special just different) the majority of the states in the EU. And that, as a result of QMV, the way the majority were developing the EU was in a way which was becoming increasingly uncomfortable for Britain. (See for instance the way most EU states describe free movement as just that whereas the British regard it as immigration.). That could have been resolved by a more flexible approach rather than a one-size-fits-all approach but, for various reasons, that was either not on offer and/or not taken up.

    The equivalent Remainer fallacy would be the fallacy that because lots of British travel abroad, have foreign friends, work in Europe etc that somehow Britain is becoming more European which rather focuses on the superficial and underestimates the reality of how different, under the surface, apparently similar countries are.

    There is the equivalent Atlanticist fallacy, of course, which does not appreciate how very different the UK and the US are and witters on, instead, about a special relationship which only ever existed in Churchill's understandable desperation 1940 - 1945.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    So the UK will end up in position in which it continues to suffer most of the disadvantages of EU membership but enjoys few of the advantages. The exact opposite of the prospectus offered by Leave at the referendum.
    Yup: if this is really what is on offer we may as well stay in.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    FF43 said:

    Brexitism rests on several fallacies, which are recited ad nauseum on here.

    1. The fallacy of opportunity.
    This is the idea that because the EU is “only” c48% of our trade - and in relative decline, we should leave to take advantage of other opportunities. It ignores the fact that EU FTAs comprise a further c20% of our trade, not to mention the clear counterexample of Germany’s export success.

    2. The fallacy of independence.
    This is the idea that we too can be Norway - who is tightly integrated with the EU via EFTA, or Switzerland - ditto via bespoke and contentious FTAs - while pursuing a “WTO” Brexit. In reality, the U.K. must and will have a close relationship with the EU.

    3. The fallacy of individuality.
    This is the idea that we are better negotiating trade deals alone for ourselves than diluting our demands with 27 other countries. It ignores the clear advantages of negotiating clout that accrue as part of a global trading superpower.

    4. The fallacy of unemployment.
    This is the claim that the EU is detrimental to the U.K. because of high rates of unemployment in the Med countries. The connection between the £-based U.K. economy, and the €-based economies is never made.

    5. The fallacy of democracy.
    This is the claim that the EU is somehow not democratic. First, this ignores both the role of the EU parliament, which needs to approve key appointments and initiatives of the EU Commission. Second, it is naive. An elected EU President and Commission (which is what is implied) would create a real alternative powerbase in Opposition to the nation states. No nation wants this is as it would be a real step toward a federal superstate.

    6. The fallacy of protectionism.
    This is the tenet that the EU is a protectionist cartel, ignoring that it has more FTAs than any other international entity, not to mention the significant arrangements with much of Africa and the Caribbean due to special provision for former colonies.

    Have I missed any?

    The fallacy that the EU's interest lies primarily in a good trading deal with the UK. Although that is a desirable thing, its first priority is the integrity of its system and the value of membership. Both of which Brexit threatens.

    The fallacy that divergence is better than compliance. Compliance enables trade and has value.
    I voted remain and agree with a lot of Gardenwalker points. However, I honestly don't think you could call the EU democratic. We have a voice but the cost of the other benefits is a lack of democracy.

    The other point I will make is that if you have a minimum wage somewhere North of Birmingham you are not likely feeling a great deal of the benefits. I hear it repeatedly said that people wouldn't vote to make themselves worse off, and in response I note the number of Labour voting ABC1 types in last years election.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    edited May 2018

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    Enshrining a limiting to the time of the transition makes sense for all sorts of reasons; including the Irish border (incentive to get the tech/processes up to scratch) and an incentive for the EU to agree a comprehensive FTA with us, if our massive trade deficit with the EU wasn't enough.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972
    edited May 2018
    Cyclefree said:

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    So the UK will end up in position in which it continues to suffer most of the disadvantages of EU membership but enjoys few of the advantages. The exact opposite of the prospectus offered by Leave at the referendum.
    Yup: if this is really what is on offer we may as well stay in.
    Indeed but Leavers are obsessives, any politician who proposed that would get Jo Cox’d.

    Is the toxic environment we live.

    Far better we Leave and if people see it is a disaster, even if we rejoin on worse terms than we currently have.

    Joining the Euro might be the ultimate legacy of Farage, Gove, and Boris.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311

    rcs1000 said:

    Elliot said:

    I don't see why the rest of us should be held to ransom by a handful of religious bigots that get upset at flags.

    Indeed.
    https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/856242373483008001
    That he isn't afraid of showing his desired direction of travel, unlike British politicians who pursued EU integration by stealth?
    I think that's unfair to British politicians. If they had been doing that, we'd never have held the referendum in the first place. Their problem was more profound than that - a kind of false consciousness whereby they convinced themselves that we had an arms length relationship with the EU and weren't really that dependent on our relationships within it.

    Hopefully after Brexit is reversed this will end and we'll start to see the EU flag flying alongside the Union Jack in the same way other member states do.
    Never going to happen. If we go back into the EU it will be on substantially different terms, I.e we will have to change our currency to the Euro. That won't happen. The only hope for the hold-out remainers is a second referendum before we leave on the terms with 3 options, remain, negotiated deal and wto Brexit. That would spilt the vote enough for Remain to win, although I am sure the leavers would want a STV in that situation so not as simple, and the EU has hardly covered itself in glory during the negotiations
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    edited May 2018

    Cyclefree said:

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    So the UK will end up in position in which it continues to suffer most of the disadvantages of EU membership but enjoys few of the advantages. The exact opposite of the prospectus offered by Leave at the referendum.
    Yup: if this is really what is on offer we may as well stay in.
    Indeed but Leavers are obsessives, any politician who proposed that would get Jo Cox’d.

    Is the toxic environment we live.

    Far better we Leave and if people see it is a disaster we rejoin on worse terms than we currently have.

    Joining the Euro might be the ultimate legacy of Farage, Gove, and Boris.
    It's far better if we have a vote on the deal, reject Brexit heavily, and *then* go through the soul-searching to process why we ever got to that point in the first place. That's the time when we should join the Euro.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,924
    test
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Cyclefree said:

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    So the UK will end up in position in which it continues to suffer most of the disadvantages of EU membership but enjoys few of the advantages. The exact opposite of the prospectus offered by Leave at the referendum.
    Yup: if this is really what is on offer we may as well stay in.
    Indeed but Leavers are obsessives, any politician who proposed that would get Jo Cox’d.

    Is the toxic environment we live.

    Far better we Leave and if people see it is a disaster we rejoin on worse terms than we currently have.

    Joining the Euro might be the ultimate legacy of Farage, Gove, and Boris.
    Hmm, haven’t some been arguing we should stay in?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    Brexitism rests on several fallacies, which are recited ad nauseum on here.


    4. The fallacy of unemployment.
    This is the claim that the EU is detrimental to the U.K. because of high rates of unemployment in the Med countries. The connection between the £-based U.K. economy, and the €-based economies is never made.

    Come, come: the connection has been made. The unemployment in the Med countries is one reason why some many of their young are working in the UK. That has brought home the reality of FoM in a way that has surprised and displeased some.

    The real fallacy is not this but that this is a bad thing. It is on the whole a good thing but which does have some significant costs, which have not been fairly shared, something often ignored by Remainers moaning about xenophobic Leavers.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972

    Cyclefree said:

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    So the UK will end up in position in which it continues to suffer most of the disadvantages of EU membership but enjoys few of the advantages. The exact opposite of the prospectus offered by Leave at the referendum.
    Yup: if this is really what is on offer we may as well stay in.
    Indeed but Leavers are obsessives, any politician who proposed that would get Jo Cox’d.

    Is the toxic environment we live.

    Far better we Leave and if people see it is a disaster we rejoin on worse terms than we currently have.

    Joining the Euro might be the ultimate legacy of Farage, Gove, and Boris.
    It's far better if we have a vote on the deal, reject Brexit heavily, and *then* go through the soul-searching to process why we ever got to that point in the first place. That's the time when we should join the Euro.
    We should never join the Euro.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Cyclefree said:

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    So the UK will end up in position in which it continues to suffer most of the disadvantages of EU membership but enjoys few of the advantages. The exact opposite of the prospectus offered by Leave at the referendum.
    Yup: if this is really what is on offer we may as well stay in.
    Indeed but Leavers are obsessives, any politician who proposed that would get Jo Cox’d.

    Is the toxic environment we live.

    Far better we Leave and if people see it is a disaster we rejoin on worse terms than we currently have.

    Joining the Euro might be the ultimate legacy of Farage, Gove, and Boris.
    It's far better if we have a vote on the deal, reject Brexit heavily, and *then* go through the soul-searching to process why we ever got to that point in the first place. That's the time when we should join the Euro.
    In your dreams, perhaps? :D
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972
    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    So the UK will end up in position in which it continues to suffer most of the disadvantages of EU membership but enjoys few of the advantages. The exact opposite of the prospectus offered by Leave at the referendum.
    Yup: if this is really what is on offer we may as well stay in.
    Indeed but Leavers are obsessives, any politician who proposed that would get Jo Cox’d.

    Is the toxic environment we live.

    Far better we Leave and if people see it is a disaster we rejoin on worse terms than we currently have.

    Joining the Euro might be the ultimate legacy of Farage, Gove, and Boris.
    Hmm, haven’t some been arguing we should stay in?
    Yes, but talk is cheap, the ones who deliver it will be the ones accused of treason.
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    Mortimer said:

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    Enshrining a limiting to the time of the transition makes sense for all sorts of reasons; including the Irish border (incentive to get the tech/processes up to scratch) and an incentive for the EU to agree a comprehensive FTA with us, if our massive trade deficit with the EU wasn't enough.
    You and other Leavers see the massive trade deficit with the EU as some kind of advantage. I wonder why the Americans don't see it that way with China, Japan, the EU, anywhere....

    Is it because they like us do not have too many things to export ?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Cyclefree said:

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    So the UK will end up in position in which it continues to suffer most of the disadvantages of EU membership but enjoys few of the advantages. The exact opposite of the prospectus offered by Leave at the referendum.
    Yup: if this is really what is on offer we may as well stay in.
    Indeed but Leavers are obsessives, any politician who proposed that would get Jo Cox’d.

    Is the toxic environment we live.

    Far better we Leave and if people see it is a disaster we rejoin on worse terms than we currently have.

    Joining the Euro might be the ultimate legacy of Farage, Gove, and Boris.
    It's far better if we have a vote on the deal, reject Brexit heavily, and *then* go through the soul-searching to process why we ever got to that point in the first place. That's the time when we should join the Euro.
    We should never join the Euro.
    That idea was put to the people in 2016 and they rejected it. ;)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    So the UK will end up in position in which it continues to suffer most of the disadvantages of EU membership but enjoys few of the advantages. The exact opposite of the prospectus offered by Leave at the referendum.
    Yup: if this is really what is on offer we may as well stay in.
    Indeed but Leavers are obsessives, any politician who proposed that would get Jo Cox’d.

    Is the toxic environment we live.

    Far better we Leave and if people see it is a disaster we rejoin on worse terms than we currently have.

    Joining the Euro might be the ultimate legacy of Farage, Gove, and Boris.
    Hmm, haven’t some been arguing we should stay in?
    Yes, but talk is cheap, the ones who deliver it will be the ones accused of treason.
    So they would only be “Jo Cox’d” if they went through with it? Hmmm.

    I like to think that they would simply get demolished at the ballot box.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    edited May 2018
    Anyway it's far too nice a day to be inside for a moment longer than necessary.

    It may be my frivolous pea-brain but every time I read about MaxFac I keep wondering what a cosmetics company has to do with Brexit......

    :)

    (BTW for @BeverleyC: Geoffrey Taylor's book on Dresden explains why Dresden was a legitimate military target not just a beautiful city mindlessly destroyed for no reason. Oh - and for @Topping (and anyone who reads Arabic) this may be of interest - http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/blogs/uploads/2018/05/Screen-Shot-2018-05-15-at-15.59.31.png.)

    Bye all. The garden awaits.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    edited May 2018
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    So the UK will end up in position in which it continues to suffer most of the disadvantages of EU membership but enjoys few of the advantages. The exact opposite of the prospectus offered by Leave at the referendum.
    Yup: if this is really what is on offer we may as well stay in.
    Indeed but Leavers are obsessives, any politician who proposed that would get Jo Cox’d.

    Is the toxic environment we live.

    Far better we Leave and if people see it is a disaster we rejoin on worse terms than we currently have.

    Joining the Euro might be the ultimate legacy of Farage, Gove, and Boris.
    Hmm, haven’t some been arguing we should stay in?
    Yes, but talk is cheap, the ones who deliver it will be the ones accused of treason.
    So they would only be “Jo Cox’d” if they went through with it? Hmmm.

    I like to think that they would simply get demolished at the ballot box.
    Despite the "project fear" about civil unrest, what's the democratic argument against a referendum between the deal and Remain as long as it's accepted that the deal represents an earnest attempt to negotiate the best withdrawal terms?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Cyclefree said:

    Brexitism rests on several fallacies, which are recited ad nauseum on here.


    4. The fallacy of unemployment.
    This is the claim that the EU is detrimental to the U.K. because of high rates of unemployment in the Med countries. The connection between the £-based U.K. economy, and the €-based economies is never made.

    Come, come: the connection has been made. The unemployment in the Med countries is one reason why some many of their young are working in the UK. That has brought home the reality of FoM in a way that has surprised and displeased some.

    The real fallacy is not this but that this is a bad thing. It is on the whole a good thing but which does have some significant costs, which have not been fairly shared, something often ignored by Remainers moaning about xenophobic Leavers.
    The point I failed to articulate is not that.
    It’s the idea that the EU is a failed economic project (witness unemployment in the Med) and that if we stay in it will keep us back somehow too.

    In that sense, unemployment in, say, Italy is a non sequitur. But thank you (and others) for your builds and corrections.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Cyclefree said:

    It may be my frivolous pea-brain but every time I read about MaxFac I keep wondering what a cosmetics company has to do with Brexit......

    It's "the break up of break up artists".
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    So the UK will end up in position in which it continues to suffer most of the disadvantages of EU membership but enjoys few of the advantages. The exact opposite of the prospectus offered by Leave at the referendum.
    Yup: if this is really what is on offer we may as well stay in.
    Indeed but Leavers are obsessives, any politician who proposed that would get Jo Cox’d.

    Is the toxic environment we live.

    Far better we Leave and if people see it is a disaster we rejoin on worse terms than we currently have.

    Joining the Euro might be the ultimate legacy of Farage, Gove, and Boris.
    Hmm, haven’t some been arguing we should stay in?
    Yes, but talk is cheap, the ones who deliver it will be the ones accused of treason.
    So they would only be “Jo Cox’d” if they went through with it? Hmmm.

    I like to think that they would simply get demolished at the ballot box.
    The far right is on the rise once again in the UK.

    Sadly.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    So the UK will end up in position in which it continues to suffer most of the disadvantages of EU membership but enjoys few of the advantages. The exact opposite of the prospectus offered by Leave at the referendum.
    Yup: if this is really what is on offer we may as well stay in.
    Indeed but Leavers are obsessives, any politician who proposed that would get Jo Cox’d.

    Is the toxic environment we live.

    Far better we Leave and if people see it is a disaster we rejoin on worse terms than we currently have.

    Joining the Euro might be the ultimate legacy of Farage, Gove, and Boris.
    Hmm, haven’t some been arguing we should stay in?
    Yes, but talk is cheap, the ones who deliver it will be the ones accused of treason.
    So they would only be “Jo Cox’d” if they went through with it? Hmmm.

    I like to think that they would simply get demolished at the ballot box.
    Despite the "project fear" about civil unrest, what's the democratic argument against a referendum between the deal and Remain as long as it's accepted that the deal represents an earnest attempt to negotiation the best withdrawal terms?
    The EU would no doubt push for the worst terms possible to ensure they won the second round. And the idea that Leave would get another shot had Remain won is fanciful.
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227

    surby said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    .

    Nigelb said:

    TOPPING said:

    To prevent a border of some sort in Ireland we have to be in the Single Market. That is a given.

    If we are in the Single Market then there is freedom of movement. Agreeing to stay in a CU simply sets the stage for remaining in the SM whether you, Corbyn or May want it or not.

    Neither the single market nor the customs union alone are sufficient to avoid a border. It's true that if you had to pick one, the single market gets you further than the customs union, but we need both. The only way round this is to jettison Northern Ireland.


    Now personally I am in favour of a united Ireland but not by imposition. I return to my previous position which is if Ireland and the EU want a hard border then that is their affair. We should simply proceed as if there is no need for one and let them play catch up.
    The lack of political nous in saying so what if there is a border in Ireland is astounding. To be so unaware of what happened in Ireland over the past 10, 40, 400+ years is extraordinary. And all in the pursuit of your blessed Brexit.

    How many different ways do you need to be told: there will be no border on or around the island of Ireland. If you really think the UK government is going to fuck with this issue you are more clueless than even your daily posts suggest.
    Why would MaxFac at all significant UK ports (including in NI), with no significant Irish border infrastructure, not work ?
    Fianna Fail seems against it as they perceive it would lead to a border.
    A similar system hasn't lead to that in Switzerland. Their concerns should be noted and ignored.
    Another one either oblivious to our recent history or unpatriotic enough not to give a fuck. That said you are young, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.
    I cross the Swiss/German border a lot. I've never been stopped and I've never had to make a customs declaration, that's both on foot or in a car.
    Our car was stopped along the Swiss-French border. Only for a cursory inspection of the booth.
    There's pretty major border infrastructure on the motorway between Annecy and Geneva - all traffic was stopped there when I went through a few months ago. Inspection was fairly cursory but a frictionless border it isn't.
    Yes. I am sure if it was not a car but a truck or commercial vehicle, the checks would have been different.
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113

    sarissa said:

    tlg86 said:


    How long until it all becomes ancient history? Presumably you have no problem being in a political union with a country that dropped bombs on us and killed thousands of our people.

    And what about Dresden? Are we guiltless?
    Basil Fawlty: Is there something wrong?
    German Guest: Will you stop talking about the war?
    Basil Fawlty: Me? You started it.
    German Guest: We did not!
    Basil Fawlty: Yes, you did. You invaded Poland!
    On a related matter, is anyone going to tonight's Dambusters 75th anniversary gala screening at the Albert Hall or (like me) a live screening at this local cinema? Looking forward to the spanking new 4k digital print.
    PB Tories continue to reminisce about a past none of them are old enough to have known.
    The endless nostalgia for wartime derring-do is ridiculous, and what's more it is not the way in which those who actually lived through it would behave. I grew up in the 1960s and 1970s when anyone much over 30 could remember the war but there was far less talk of it at that time than there is today. I cannot remember any form of remembrance ceremony at school, the older generation regarded the war as a terrible experience best left in the past and few ever spoke of it. We could do well to follow that example today.
    Indeed. My mother was born in 1927 and was a teenager in the war. I remember when growing up there was a long running series about WW2, 'All Our Yesterdays'.

    She always turned off the TV as soon as the theme tune started up, saying 'we don't want to see all that again'.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    So the UK will end up in position in which it continues to suffer most of the disadvantages of EU membership but enjoys few of the advantages. The exact opposite of the prospectus offered by Leave at the referendum.
    Yup: if this is really what is on offer we may as well stay in.
    Indeed but Leavers are obsessives, any politician who proposed that would get Jo Cox’d.

    Is the toxic environment we live.

    Far better we Leave and if people see it is a disaster we rejoin on worse terms than we currently have.

    Joining the Euro might be the ultimate legacy of Farage, Gove, and Boris.
    Hmm, haven’t some been arguing we should stay in?
    Yes, but talk is cheap, the ones who deliver it will be the ones accused of treason.
    So they would only be “Jo Cox’d” if they went through with it? Hmmm.

    I like to think that they would simply get demolished at the ballot box.
    The far right is on the rise once again in the UK.

    Sadly.
    You are referring to the rise in reported hate crime? Electorally, I see no evidence of this.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway it's far too nice a day to be inside for a moment longer than necessary.

    It may be my frivolous pea-brain but every time I read about MaxFac I keep wondering what a cosmetics company has to do with Brexit......

    :)

    (BTW for @BeverleyC: Geoffrey Taylor's book on Dresden explains why Dresden was a legitimate military target not just a beautiful city mindlessly destroyed for no reason. Oh - and for @Topping (and anyone who reads Arabic) this may be of interest - http://cdn.timesofisrael.com/blogs/uploads/2018/05/Screen-Shot-2018-05-15-at-15.59.31.png.)

    Bye all. The garden awaits.

    Thanks & Enjoy!
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    Not sure Leavers will accept that compromise.
    They will ask why it is taking so long to do something they believe is so simple.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/20/liam-fox-uk-eu-trade-deal-after-brexit-easiest-human-history
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    5. The fallacy of democracy.
    This is the claim that the EU is somehow not democratic. First, this ignores both the role of the EU parliament, which needs to approve key appointments and initiatives of the EU Commission. Second, it is naive. An elected EU President and Commission (which is what is implied) would create a real alternative powerbase in Opposition to the nation states. No nation wants this is as it would be a real step toward a federal superstate.

    That's not a fallacy.

    Yes making the EU more democratic would be a step toward a federal superstate but it would be democratic. The reality is that the EU President and Commission already hold lots of federal superstate powers but without the democratic checks that changing direction and government at the ballot box provides.

    If you value democracy then there are two options - the UK as our nation state out of the EU or a democratic federal superstate. Sacrificing democracy in order to avoid that step is not desirable.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    rkrkrk said:

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    Not sure Leavers will accept that compromise.
    They will ask why it is taking so long to do something they believe is so simple.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/20/liam-fox-uk-eu-trade-deal-after-brexit-easiest-human-history
    Even the Guardian admit he said it won’t be easy in practice. It should be easy because the UK is in full alignment with EU law and regulations.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    rkrkrk said:

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    Not sure Leavers will accept that compromise.
    They will ask why it is taking so long to do something they believe is so simple.
    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jul/20/liam-fox-uk-eu-trade-deal-after-brexit-easiest-human-history
    The Leaver elite - all in Cabinet - look set to suck it up. The idea of a Leaver revolt is for the birds. As I’ve said before we could keep everything as it is and no one would notice - including FOM which we could simply rename FTW (freedom to work).

    The Leavers had one big chance, and to their credit, they seized it. But that’s it.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    So the UK will end up in position in which it continues to suffer most of the disadvantages of EU membership but enjoys few of the advantages. The exact opposite of the prospectus offered by Leave at the referendum.
    Yup: if this is really what is on offer we may as well stay in.
    Indeed but Leavers are obsessives, any politician who proposed that would get Jo Cox’d.

    Is the toxic environment we live.

    Far better we Leave and if people see it is a disaster we rejoin on worse terms than we currently have.

    Joining the Euro might be the ultimate legacy of Farage, Gove, and Boris.
    Hmm, haven’t some been arguing we should stay in?
    Yes, but talk is cheap, the ones who deliver it will be the ones accused of treason.
    So they would only be “Jo Cox’d” if they went through with it? Hmmm.

    I like to think that they would simply get demolished at the ballot box.
    The far right is on the rise once again in the UK.

    Sadly.
    You are referring to the rise in reported hate crime? Electorally, I see no evidence of this.
    I wonder how many votes the far right got in the local elections? Personally I don't think of UKIP as far right, but I know many people do, and if you look back over the last twenty years at the number of votes for the BNP, and latterly UKIP, I think the far right is in retreat.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    The compromise on the customs union question is obvious and is apparently going to be taken. Britain will remain in something that is substantially the customs union for a time-limited and potentially renewable period while the zealots use the time to do extra Charms classes at Hogwarts to come up with a magical solution.

    So the UK will end up in position in which it continues to suffer most of the disadvantages of EU membership but enjoys few of the advantages. The exact opposite of the prospectus offered by Leave at the referendum.
    Yup: if this is really what is on offer we may as well stay in.
    Indeed but Leavers are obsessives, any politician who proposed that would get Jo Cox’d.

    Is the toxic environment we live.

    Far better we Leave and if people see it is a disaster we rejoin on worse terms than we currently have.

    Joining the Euro might be the ultimate legacy of Farage, Gove, and Boris.
    Hmm, haven’t some been arguing we should stay in?
    Yes, but talk is cheap, the ones who deliver it will be the ones accused of treason.
    So they would only be “Jo Cox’d” if they went through with it? Hmmm.

    I like to think that they would simply get demolished at the ballot box.
    Despite the "project fear" about civil unrest, what's the democratic argument against a referendum between the deal and Remain as long as it's accepted that the deal represents an earnest attempt to negotiation the best withdrawal terms?
    The EU would no doubt push for the worst terms possible to ensure they won the second round. And the idea that Leave would get another shot had Remain won is fanciful.
    Agree on the first, but I think another EU referendum would have been inevitable if the first had been won 52:48 by Remain. The EU will be constantly changing to accommodate the issues with the Eurozone. That made another referendum almost inevitable.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,265
    surby said:



    Our car was stopped along the Swiss-French border. Only for a cursory inspection of the booth.

    One of my favourite examples of Swiss efficiency was a friend who travelled to France to buy a turkey at a time when (unbeknownst to him) the Swiss were banning turkey imports due to a health scare - he routinely bought food in France because it was cheaper.

    At the border, the Swiss asked if he was carrying any poultry, and he said yes. They told him he couldn't bring it in and therefore had a choice of throwing it away or turning back into France.

    He thought about it, turned back, and drove 40 km to the next border post, this time hiding the turkey in the boot under a pile of clothes. He drove up to the border and said cheerfully "Nothing to declare". The Swiss customs official smiled delphically: "And what about the turkey, sir?"

    That said, there have always been border posts that are only enforced by roving spot checks a kilometer or two inland.
This discussion has been closed.