Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The London election polling test finds that LAB was overstated

124

Comments

  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Notable how some of this site’s leading Brexiteer and Neobrexiteers don’t live in the UK, or anywhere near it.

    RCS1000, Carlotta, Sandpit and Archer to name a few.

    Telling.

    That is why they are called "Leavers". They have left .... :D
    :D Ah! Thanks for clarifying

    I was obviously being unkind in my assumption that they liked pontificating from the sidelines safe in the knowledge that their deranged project won't impact them.
    Or bringing perspective of those who have lived in foreign parts and remain astonished at the insularity of those who have only ever lived in Britain?
    Plenty of Remain supporters have also lived abroad, myself for 6 years in two stints and two countries. Indeed, I believe not having a passport correlated with Leave voting.
    You can't really have it both ways. "Brexiteers are ex-pats" and "Brexiteers are xenophobic little Englanders" can't both be true.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    edited May 2018
    JackW said:

    GIN1138 said:

    JackW said:

    The best reason to maintain Bercow in post is that the government again has its dabs all over the evidence. They failed miserably with the Hague catastrophe and deserve to fail again.

    The default position should invariably be if the government wants a Speaker out then the Commons should assert their authority and advise the executive to keep their "f*cking useless" hands off.

    Sorry Jack you can't have a situation where the "referee" is verbally abusing one of the main "players" on one side... And that's before you get into the bullying allegations against his staff.

    Instead of allowing an investigation into those allegations and letting the Commons authorities follow the evidence wherever it may lead Bercow seems to have chosen evasion. Instead of transparency he's chosen cover-up.

    Just what has he got to hide?
    Sometimes the "referee" has to award a yellow or red card to a player and it would appear that Bercow isn't above directing a colourful verbal volley to a government minister. Excellent say I. The executive is far too powerful and if they are cut down to size then so be it. Neither have I noticed that Bercow is shy of directing his ire toward the Opposition benches as appropriate.

    If you think that government isn't above "bullying" or enforcing their will forcefully then you haven't seen the Whips Office in action. The Speaker is a powerful figure and isn't above flexing his muscles. If enough MP's feel so inclined then he will leave.

    Notably Sky News are reporting that MP's of all parties close to the Speakers Chair did not hear his comments. Shame .... he needs to intone a little louder next time and perhaps be a little more forthright in his judgement of the government business managers !!
    Bercow has forgotten that he is the servant of the House not the Master of it.

    Using his supporters to ensure that he is not properly investigated is showing massive disrespect to everyone involved.

    If he has nothing to hide, he should be throwing open his doors and welcoming in the investigators. He could then clearly demonstrate that his behaviour was beyond reproach.

    The fact that he is refusing to allow the investigation to proceed shows that he is frightened of what might emerge.

    He has no right to put himself above the basic principles of employment law - no matter what the rules of the House might or might not say on the matter.

    Also referees in sporting contests are answerable to their governing body. Bercow seems to believe he is answerable to no-one.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    It's great, but where's NT? Or am I missing the point?
    It’s a mishmash of consumer and corporate versions. Vista is also missing, not that anyone misses it of course.
    Who can forget Windows ME?
    Is that like Quincy, ME but with a lower body count?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    RobD said:

    Sandpit said:

    It's great, but where's NT? Or am I missing the point?
    It’s a mishmash of consumer and corporate versions. Vista is also missing, not that anyone misses it of course.
    Who can forget Windows ME?
    Me, obviously. ;)

    That was another of the crap ones, the last of the separate consumer line before they merged together with XP.

    They should have gone NT4 > 2k > 7 and missed out all the other crap. I’m only now replacing 7 with 10 because they’ve stopped supporting it.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695
    edited May 2018
    JackW said:

    GIN1138 said:

    JackW said:

    The best reason to maintain Bercow in post is that the government again has its dabs all over the evidence. They failed miserably with the Hague catastrophe and deserve to fail again.

    The default position should invariably be if the government wants a Speaker out then the Commons should assert their authority and advise the executive to keep their "f*cking useless" hands off.

    Sorry Jack you can't have a situation where the "referee" is verbally abusing one of the main "players" on one side... And that's before you get into the bullying allegations against his staff.

    Instead of allowing an investigation into those allegations and letting the Commons authorities follow the evidence wherever it may lead Bercow seems to have chosen evasion. Instead of transparency he's chosen cover-up.

    Just what has he got to hide?
    Sometimes the "referee" has to award a yellow or red card to a player and it would appear that Bercow isn't above directing a colourful verbal volley to a government minister. Excellent say I. The executive is far too powerful and if they are cut down to size then so be it. Neither have I noticed that Bercow is shy of directing his ire toward the Opposition benches as appropriate.

    If you think that government isn't above "bullying" or enforcing their will forcefully then you haven't seen the Whips Office in action. The Speaker is a powerful figure and isn't above flexing his muscles. If enough MP's feel so inclined then he will leave.

    Notably Sky News are reporting that MP's of all parties close to the Speakers Chair did not hear his comments. Shame .... he needs to intone a little louder next time and perhaps be a little more forthright in his judgement of the governments business managers !!
    Of course the government can "bully" but Bercow, with the great position he holds within our establishment, should be "above" such things - And really I'm more concerned about the bullying allegations against him from his staff than I am the allegations against Andrea Leadsom (although I don't really think calling any female politician a "useless woman" is appropriate) who I suspect has been around the block enough to hold her own against someone like Bercow.

    But the REAL issue is the allegations against Bercow by his staff and the fact he's chosen not to co-operate with Commons investigators...

    As I remember you saying when Cameron was under the cosh over Coulson and the phone hacking scandal, just follow the evidence wherever it leads...

    The fact Bercow chose not to be completely candid and transparent about these allegations speaks volumes I think... And as a highly respected member of the establishment yourself you've got to admit treating your backroom (and indeed below stairs) staff in the way Bercow is alleged to have treated his staff is a pretty rum doo...
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Notable how some of this site’s leading Brexiteer and Neobrexiteers don’t live in the UK, or anywhere near it.

    RCS1000, Carlotta, Sandpit and Archer to name a few.

    Telling.

    That is why they are called "Leavers". They have left .... :D
    :D Ah! Thanks for clarifying

    I was obviously being unkind in my assumption that they liked pontificating from the sidelines safe in the knowledge that their deranged project won't impact them.
    Or bringing perspective of those who have lived in foreign parts and remain astonished at the insularity of those who have only ever lived in Britain?
    Plenty of Remain supporters have also lived abroad, myself for 6 years in two stints and two countries. Indeed, I believe not having a passport correlated with Leave voting.
    You can't really have it both ways. "Brexiteers are ex-pats" and "Brexiteers are xenophobic little Englanders" can't both be true.
    This may be a sensationally new idea, but might some Brexiteers be expats who are happy to play out an experiment that they won't suffer any fallout from and some other Brexiteers be xenophobic little Englanders?

    This hypothesis seems to fit many of the available facts. Perhaps we could look into it further.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Notable how some of this site’s leading Brexiteer and Neobrexiteers don’t live in the UK, or anywhere near it.

    RCS1000, Carlotta, Sandpit and Archer to name a few.

    Telling.

    That is why they are called "Leavers". They have left .... :D
    :D Ah! Thanks for clarifying

    I was obviously being unkind in my assumption that they liked pontificating from the sidelines safe in the knowledge that their deranged project won't impact them.
    Or bringing perspective of those who have lived in foreign parts and remain astonished at the insularity of those who have only ever lived in Britain?
    Plenty of Remain supporters have also lived abroad, myself for 6 years in two stints and two countries. Indeed, I believe not having a passport correlated with Leave voting.
    You can't really have it both ways. "Brexiteers are ex-pats" and "Brexiteers are xenophobic little Englanders" can't both be true.
    The union set of ex-pats and xenophobic little Englanders is quite large.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    The new allegations against Mr Speaker do seem to somewhat dwarf the previous ones.

    Guido says the camera would have caught him, is suggesting that anyone who ‘comes across’ the footage sends it to him.
  • HHemmeligHHemmelig Posts: 617


    Bercow has forgotten that he is the servant of the House not the Master of it.

    Using his supporters to ensure that he is not properly investigated is showing massive disrespect to everyone involved.

    If he has nothing to hide, he should be throwing open his doors and welcoming in the investigators. He could then clearly demonstrate that his behaviour was beyond reproach.

    The fact that he is refusing to allow the investigation to proceed shows that he is frightened of what might emerge.

    He has no right to put himself above the basic principles of employment law - no matter what the rules of the House might or might not say on the matter.

    Bercow has never shown any respect for the niceties and conventions that Speakers traditionally adhere to.

    He can't last forever and I hope that when the time comes Mrs May or her successor similarly disrespects convention and denies him the customary peerage. Perhaps Bercow realises the risk of this and so is determined to hang on to retire under a grateful Labour government.

    Go back and watch parliamentary debates from the 1990s on YouTube under speakers Weatherill and Boothroyd and compare and contrast with Bercow's appalling performances day in day out. The difference is enormous.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,123

    JackW said:

    GIN1138 said:

    JackW said:

    The best reason to maintain Bercow in post is that the government again has its dabs all over the evidence. They failed miserably with the Hague catastrophe and deserve to fail again.

    The default position should invariably be if the government wants a Speaker out then the Commons should assert their authority and advise the executive to keep their "f*cking useless" hands off.

    Sorry Jack you can't have a situation where the "referee" is verbally abusing one of the main "players" on one side... And that's before you get into the bullying allegations against his staff.

    Instead of allowing an investigation into those allegations and letting the Commons authorities follow the evidence wherever it may lead Bercow seems to have chosen evasion. Instead of transparency he's chosen cover-up.

    Just what has he got to hide?
    Sometimes the "referee" has to award a yellow or red card to a player and it would appear that Bercow isn't above directing a colourful verbal volley to a government minister. Excellent say I. The executive is far too powerful and if they are cut down to size then so be it. Neither have I noticed that Bercow is shy of directing his ire toward the Opposition benches as appropriate.

    If you think that government isn't above "bullying" or enforcing their will forcefully then you haven't seen the Whips Office in action. The Speaker is a powerful figure and isn't above flexing his muscles. If enough MP's feel so inclined then he will leave.

    Notably Sky News are reporting that MP's of all parties close to the Speakers Chair did not hear his comments. Shame .... he needs to intone a little louder next time and perhaps be a little more forthright in his judgement of the government business managers !!
    Bercow has forgotten that he is the servant of the House not the Master of it.

    Using his supporters to ensure that he is not properly investigated is showing massive disrespect to everyone involved.

    If he has nothing to hide, he should be throwing open his doors and welcoming in the investigators. He could then clearly demonstrate that his behaviour was beyond reproach.

    The fact that he is refusing to allow the investigation to proceed shows that he is frightened of what might emerge.

    He has no right to put himself above the basic principles of employment law - no matter what the rules of the House might or might not say on the matter.

    Also referees in sporting contests are answerable to their governing body. Bercow seems to believe he is answerable to no-one.
    +1
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Notable how some of this site’s leading Brexiteer and Neobrexiteers don’t live in the UK, or anywhere near it.

    RCS1000, Carlotta, Sandpit and Archer to name a few.

    Telling.

    That is why they are called "Leavers". They have left .... :D
    :D Ah! Thanks for clarifying

    I was obviously being unkind in my assumption that they liked pontificating from the sidelines safe in the knowledge that their deranged project won't impact them.
    Or bringing perspective of those who have lived in foreign parts and remain astonished at the insularity of those who have only ever lived in Britain?
    Plenty of Remain supporters have also lived abroad, myself for 6 years in two stints and two countries. Indeed, I believe not having a passport correlated with Leave voting.
    You can't really have it both ways. "Brexiteers are ex-pats" and "Brexiteers are xenophobic little Englanders" can't both be true.
    This may be a sensationally new idea, but might some Brexiteers be expats who are happy to play out an experiment that they won't suffer any fallout from and some other Brexiteers be xenophobic little Englanders?

    This hypothesis seems to fit many of the available facts. Perhaps we could look into it further.
    Or perhaps, some who live abroad think Democracy is more important than Economics?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sandpit said:

    The new allegations against Mr Speaker do seem to somewhat dwarf the previous ones.

    Guido says the camera would have caught him, is suggesting that anyone who ‘comes across’ the footage sends it to him.

    The allegations of bullying of junior members of staff are serious and need full investigation.

    Those relating to Andrea Leadsom are trivial. Senior government ministers should be able to deal with argy-bargy.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    Bercow has forgotten that he is the servant of the House not the Master of it.

    Using his supporters to ensure that he is not properly investigated is showing massive disrespect to everyone involved.

    If he has nothing to hide, he should be throwing open his doors and welcoming in the investigators. He could then clearly demonstrate that his behaviour was beyond reproach.

    The fact that he is refusing to allow the investigation to proceed shows that he is frightened of what might emerge.

    He has no right to put himself above the basic principles of employment law - no matter what the rules of the House might or might not say on the matter.

    Also referees in sporting contests are answerable to their governing body. Bercow seems to believe he is answerable to no-one.

    If any person feels they wish to do so then they may make a formal complaint and I would assert that the Daily Mail might not be their first port of call.

    Further Bercow's "governing body" is the Commons. They will decide his fate and not the Government Whips Office.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Notable how some of this site’s leading Brexiteer and Neobrexiteers don’t live in the UK, or anywhere near it.

    RCS1000, Carlotta, Sandpit and Archer to name a few.

    Telling.

    That is why they are called "Leavers". They have left .... :D
    :D Ah! Thanks for clarifying

    I was obviously being unkind in my assumption that they liked pontificating from the sidelines safe in the knowledge that their deranged project won't impact them.
    Or bringing perspective of those who have lived in foreign parts and remain astonished at the insularity of those who have only ever lived in Britain?
    Plenty of Remain supporters have also lived abroad, myself for 6 years in two stints and two countries. Indeed, I believe not having a passport correlated with Leave voting.
    You can't really have it both ways. "Brexiteers are ex-pats" and "Brexiteers are xenophobic little Englanders" can't both be true.
    This may be a sensationally new idea, but might some Brexiteers be expats who are happy to play out an experiment that they won't suffer any fallout from and some other Brexiteers be xenophobic little Englanders?

    This hypothesis seems to fit many of the available facts. Perhaps we could look into it further.
    Or perhaps, some who live abroad think Democracy is more important than Economics?
    When they're wholly unaffected by the economics, that's not going to weigh on their minds, is it? So they can indulge their mad hatred of the EU onto which they project all the wickednesses of the world, and they do.
  • HHemmeligHHemmelig Posts: 617
    TOPPING said:


    The union set of ex-pats and xenophobic little Englanders is quite large.

    Myself I spent some years living overseas, and given the kind of business I'm in I'm in touch with expat Brits almost daily. Yet the only expat Brexiteers I've knowingly ever come across are on here. I guess eg retirement communities in Spain or Malta might be different.

  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695
    edited May 2018



    Those relating to Andrea Leadsom are trivial. Senior government ministers should be able to deal with argy-bargy.

    Wonder whether you would think it a "trivial" matter if it had been directed a female MP from REMAIN rather than LEAVE? ;)
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    GIN1138 said:

    JackW said:

    The best reason to maintain Bercow in post is that the government again has its dabs all over the evidence. They failed miserably with the Hague catastrophe and deserve to fail again.

    The default position should invariably be if the government wants a Speaker out then the Commons should assert their authority and advise the executive to keep their "f*cking useless" hands off.

    Sorry Jack you can't have a situation where the "referee" is verbally abusing one of the main "players" on one side... And that's before you get into the bullying allegations against his staff.

    Instead of allowing an investigation into those allegations and letting the Commons authorities follow the evidence wherever it may lead Bercow seems to have chosen evasion. Instead of transparency he's chosen cover-up.

    Just what has he got to hide?
    One of the complainants needs to take this to the courts - that way it is out of reach of Bercow and his small band.
    Yes, a complaint to the police for harassment, or a private prosecution for constructive dismissal, would be very interesting, most notably in the approach taken by the authorities.

    It’s certainly not a good look to have someone in such a powerful position for the life of a Parliament with no way to remove them - even if they’re abusing their position and those who work for them.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    JackW said:

    Bercow has forgotten that he is the servant of the House not the Master of it.

    Using his supporters to ensure that he is not properly investigated is showing massive disrespect to everyone involved.

    If he has nothing to hide, he should be throwing open his doors and welcoming in the investigators. He could then clearly demonstrate that his behaviour was beyond reproach.

    The fact that he is refusing to allow the investigation to proceed shows that he is frightened of what might emerge.

    He has no right to put himself above the basic principles of employment law - no matter what the rules of the House might or might not say on the matter.

    Also referees in sporting contests are answerable to their governing body. Bercow seems to believe he is answerable to no-one.

    If any person feels they wish to do so then they may make a formal complaint and I would assert that the Daily Mail might not be their first port of call.

    Further Bercow's "governing body" is the Commons. They will decide his fate and not the Government Whips Office.
    He used his personal committee to block the investigations. He thinks he is above scrutiny.

    Simple as that.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    You do have to wonder about the operation of the Corbyn office.

    https://order-order.com/2018/05/18/corbyns-new-peer-defended-anti-semites/

    Surely they could have seen this one coming a mile off.
  • HHemmeligHHemmelig Posts: 617

    Sandpit said:

    The new allegations against Mr Speaker do seem to somewhat dwarf the previous ones.

    Guido says the camera would have caught him, is suggesting that anyone who ‘comes across’ the footage sends it to him.

    The allegations of bullying of junior members of staff are serious and need full investigation.

    Those relating to Andrea Leadsom are trivial. Senior government ministers should be able to deal with argy-bargy.
    Though I might happen to agree with him on the uselessness of Leadsom, IMO it is beyond the pale for a Speaker to express his own opinions on individuals in such a manner. Ditto the "bollocks to Brexit" sticker....which I'd happily display on my own car were it not likely to attract a brick, but it is simply wrong for a Speaker to express any personal or political view whatsoever. If he isn't seen as totally impartial he cannot do the job and it's as simple as that. The bullying allegations are the cherry atop a very large cake.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited May 2018

    Sandpit said:

    The new allegations against Mr Speaker do seem to somewhat dwarf the previous ones.

    Guido says the camera would have caught him, is suggesting that anyone who ‘comes across’ the footage sends it to him.

    The allegations of bullying of junior members of staff are serious and need full investigation.

    Those relating to Andrea Leadsom are trivial. Senior government ministers should be able to deal with argy-bargy.
    Actually you’re right. I just wanted to get a dwarf joke in!

    The allegations about junior staff need to be investigated properly, but it appears that all the disciplinary processes lead back to Mr Speaker himself.

    I would suggest that his language to the minister is not what should be expected of someone in his position, rather than anything more than that. It is however another example of what is becoming a pattern of aggressive behaviour in the job.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    GIN1138 said:



    Those relating to Andrea Leadsom are trivial. Senior government ministers should be able to deal with argy-bargy.

    Wonder whether you would think it a "trivial" matter if it had been directed a female MP from REMAIN rather than LEAVE? ;)
    It is not a question whether the MP is male or female or from Remain or Leave.

    A senior government minister should be capable of looking after themselves. I have every confidence that Andrea Leadsom can.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    HHemmelig said:

    TOPPING said:


    The union set of ex-pats and xenophobic little Englanders is quite large.

    Myself I spent some years living overseas, and given the kind of business I'm in I'm in touch with expat Brits almost daily. Yet the only expat Brexiteers I've knowingly ever come across are on here. I guess eg retirement communities in Spain or Malta might be different.

    I wonder if older Brits who have retired overseas are as pro Brexit as older Brits who have remained in the UK?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited May 2018

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Notable how some of this site’s leading Brexiteer and Neobrexiteers don’t live in the UK, or anywhere near it.

    RCS1000, Carlotta, Sandpit and Archer to name a few.

    Telling.

    That is why they are called "Leavers". They have left .... :D
    :D Ah! Thanks for clarifying

    I was obviously being unkind in my assumption that they liked pontificating from the sidelines safe in the knowledge that their deranged project won't impact them.
    Or bringing perspective of those who have lived in foreign parts and remain astonished at the insularity of those who have only ever lived in Britain?
    Plenty of Remain supporters have also lived abroad, myself for 6 years in two stints and two countries. Indeed, I believe not having a passport correlated with Leave voting.
    You can't really have it both ways. "Brexiteers are ex-pats" and "Brexiteers are xenophobic little Englanders" can't both be true.
    This may be a sensationally new idea, but might some Brexiteers be expats who are happy to play out an experiment that they won't suffer any fallout from and some other Brexiteers be xenophobic little Englanders?

    This hypothesis seems to fit many of the available facts. Perhaps we could look into it further.
    Or perhaps, some who live abroad think Democracy is more important than Economics?
    When they're wholly unaffected by the economics, that's not going to weigh on their minds, is it? So they can indulge their mad hatred of the EU onto which they project all the wickednesses of the world, and they do.
    Why would you suppose they're wholly unaffected by the economics?

    I would assume many have ties, family members, property, investments and pensions in the UK. I certainly have most of those - and others have talked of plans to return to the UK.

    Perhaps distance has afforded perspective?

    If you're looking for mad hatred look in a mirror.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    HYUFD said:

    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:


    Except he hasn't, regulatory alignment over Ireland does not require full single market membership nor does it prevent FOM being replaced by work permits as both May and Corbyn have made clear and even if there ended up being FOM from the Republic to NI that would not apply from continental Europe to the UK

    If freedom of movement does indeed end (and I'm far from convinced it will, in the forseeable future), it will most likely only do so in a technical sense, with so-called "work permits" being no more difficult to obtain for EU citizens than an ESTA to visit the US. That does hopefully mean being able to keep out known criminals and undesireables, but we probably won't have any more control on EU immigration beyond that, certainly no cap on numbers. Time will tell how the Leave electorate respond, I suspect many are already pretty bored with the issue.
    Maybe but it would still technically end FoM
    And finally, the HYUFD cat is out of the bag. You go on about how Brexit means the end of freedom of movement, but in reality you just want to SAY it has been ended. You know May will sell you out so now it is just about 'technically' ending it.

    So, when there are 'work permits' which as HHemmelig says will be available without application or limit, it won't cause any reduction in immigration. And, of course, as this will be part of the new treaty with the EU the UK won't be able to change - so there will be no 'taking back control' or 'taking control of our borders' - just yet another in a long line of Tory sellouts on Europe.

    Good to see you have your rationalisation ready to go...
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Why do the PB Tories loathe John Bercow so much?

    Do they dislike him as much as the Tube scene in His Darkest Hour?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited May 2018
    HHemmelig said:

    TOPPING said:


    The union set of ex-pats and xenophobic little Englanders is quite large.

    Myself I spent some years living overseas, and given the kind of business I'm in I'm in touch with expat Brits almost daily. Yet the only expat Brexiteers I've knowingly ever come across are on here. I guess eg retirement communities in Spain or Malta might be different.

    Among colleagues and friends in Dubai it’s about 50/50, with about half having a strong opinion on the subject. Exclusively a middle-class working-age sample group though - no-one retires to the sandpit, and almost no-one gets citizenship here either.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Anazina said:

    Why do the PB Tories loathe John Bercow so much?

    Do they dislike him as much as the Tube scene in His Darkest Hour?

    It is not a party political thing

    It is about abusing his position to block investigations into his own behaviour - whilst at the same time lecturing others.

    Being a hypocrite and a bully should disqualify anyone from that sort of role - irrespective of party.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Anazina said:

    Why do the PB Tories loathe John Bercow so much?

    Do they dislike him as much as the Tube scene in His Darkest Hour?

    We’ve not yet called him unspoofsble, so there’s hope for him yet.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    Scott_P said:
    Sadly, he’s taken his ball home.
    Still, at least he’s following his principles. What chance of Boris or Fox doing a flounce?

    https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/997465393336848384?s=21
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Anazina said:

    Why do the PB Tories loathe John Bercow so much?

    Do they dislike him as much as the Tube scene in His Darkest Hour?

    I would rather have Gorbal's Mick back.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392

    HHemmelig said:

    TOPPING said:


    The union set of ex-pats and xenophobic little Englanders is quite large.

    Myself I spent some years living overseas, and given the kind of business I'm in I'm in touch with expat Brits almost daily. Yet the only expat Brexiteers I've knowingly ever come across are on here. I guess eg retirement communities in Spain or Malta might be different.

    I wonder if older Brits who have retired overseas are as pro Brexit as older Brits who have remained in the UK?
    Just those who have migrated because they don't like foreigners.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    RobD said:

    Anazina said:

    Why do the PB Tories loathe John Bercow so much?

    Do they dislike him as much as the Tube scene in His Darkest Hour?

    We’ve not yet called him unspoofsble, so there’s hope for him yet.
    AIUI he has been a good Speaker for MP's in general. He has a nasty temper that he shows in the HOC and I just do not warm to him. I think he has bigtime LMS.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Sadly, he’s taken his ball home.
    Still, at least he’s following his principles. What chance of Boris or Fox doing a flounce?

    They really don't like it up 'em !
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,545

    Anazina said:

    Why do the PB Tories loathe John Bercow so much?

    Do they dislike him as much as the Tube scene in His Darkest Hour?

    It is not a party political thing

    It is about abusing his position to block investigations into his own behaviour - whilst at the same time lecturing others.

    Being a hypocrite and a bully should disqualify anyone from that sort of role - irrespective of party.
    Hypocrisy should disqualify a person from holding political office! Now there's an idea....
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    I'd say the Brits in Zurich are 60/40 remain, but that's among people I know who are disproportionately in finance. Although most think the government are doing a very poor job and wish that the Swiss were in charge of Brexit.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362

    HYUFD said:

    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:


    Except he hasn't, regulatory alignment over Ireland does not require full single market membership nor does it prevent FOM being replaced by work permits as both May and Corbyn have made clear and even if there ended up being FOM from the Republic to NI that would not apply from continental Europe to the UK

    If freedom of movement does indeed end (and I'm far from convinced it will, in the forseeable future), it will most likely only do so in a technical sense, with so-called "work permits" being no more difficult to obtain for EU citizens than an ESTA to visit the US. That does hopefully mean being able to keep out known criminals and undesireables, but we probably won't have any more control on EU immigration beyond that, certainly no cap on numbers. Time will tell how the Leave electorate respond, I suspect many are already pretty bored with the issue.
    Maybe but it would still technically end FoM
    And finally, the HYUFD cat is out of the bag. You go on about how Brexit means the end of freedom of movement, but in reality you just want to SAY it has been ended. You know May will sell you out so now it is just about 'technically' ending it.

    So, when there are 'work permits' which as HHemmelig says will be available without application or limit, it won't cause any reduction in immigration. And, of course, as this will be part of the new treaty with the EU the UK won't be able to change - so there will be no 'taking back control' or 'taking control of our borders' - just yet another in a long line of Tory sellouts on Europe.

    Good to see you have your rationalisation ready to go...
    +1
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    edited May 2018
    Anazina said:

    Why do the PB Tories loathe John Bercow so much?

    Do they dislike him as much as the Tube scene in His Darkest Hour?

    It is not just PB Tories that believe he should be thoroughly investigated (And of course appropriate action taken if they are found to be with merit) over the bullying allegations.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018

    You do have to wonder about the operation of the Corbyn office.

    https://order-order.com/2018/05/18/corbyns-new-peer-defended-anti-semites/

    Surely they could have seen this one coming a mile off.

    Nepotism and more antisemitism....so Labour 2018...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    Scott_P said:
    Indeed. This is my favourite:

    Why are imagination and energy even required? This is going to be the easiest deal in history. German car makers will help the EU understand they need us more than we need them. We’ll have our cake and eat it. Non-EU countries are desperate to have FTAs and buy our innovative jam https://t.co/LqrCjVGrX8

    — Sean Jones (@seanjonesqc) 17 May 2018
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018
    Scott_P said:

    Anazina said:

    Why do the PB Tories loathe John Bercow so much?

    Do they dislike him as much as the Tube scene in His Darkest Hour?

    I would rather have Gorbal's Mick back.
    I remember the good old days of Betty...when the speaker actually did a good job without bullying, bias or troughing every expense possible.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    Anazina said:

    Why do the PB Tories loathe John Bercow so much?

    Do they dislike him as much as the Tube scene in His Darkest Hour?

    Why does our asylum of remainiacs love him so much?
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    HYUFD said:

    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:


    Except he hasn't, regulatory alignment over Ireland does not require full single market membership nor does it prevent FOM being replaced by work permits as both May and Corbyn have made clear and even if there ended up being FOM from the Republic to NI that would not apply from continental Europe to the UK

    If freedom of movement does indeed end (and I'm far from convinced it will, in the forseeable future), it will most likely only do so in a technical sense, with so-called "work permits" being no more difficult to obtain for EU citizens than an ESTA to visit the US. That does hopefully mean being able to keep out known criminals and undesireables, but we probably won't have any more control on EU immigration beyond that, certainly no cap on numbers. Time will tell how the Leave electorate respond, I suspect many are already pretty bored with the issue.
    Maybe but it would still technically end FoM
    And finally, the HYUFD cat is out of the bag. You go on about how Brexit means the end of freedom of movement, but in reality you just want to SAY it has been ended. You know May will sell you out so now it is just about 'technically' ending it.

    So, when there are 'work permits' which as HHemmelig says will be available without application or limit, it won't cause any reduction in immigration. And, of course, as this will be part of the new treaty with the EU the UK won't be able to change - so there will be no 'taking back control' or 'taking control of our borders' - just the yet another in a long line of Tory sellouts on Europe.

    Good to see you have your rationalisation ready to go...
    For once, Have You Used Funny Drugs is on the right lines.

    The key to solving the Brexit riddle is to call the agreement ‘The Diamond Hard Up Yours Johnny Foreigner Full English Red White and Blue Brexit Agreement’ while retaining exactly what we have currently.

    A sensible solution that will suit most parties.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    RobD said:

    Anazina said:

    Why do the PB Tories loathe John Bercow so much?

    Do they dislike him as much as the Tube scene in His Darkest Hour?

    We’ve not yet called him unspoofsble, so there’s hope for him yet.
    :D
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    Why do the PB Tories loathe John Bercow so much?

    Do they dislike him as much as the Tube scene in His Darkest Hour?

    Why does our asylum of remainiacs love him so much?
    I have no strong opinion on him one way or another.

    Who cares?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,123
    GIN1138 said:



    Those relating to Andrea Leadsom are trivial. Senior government ministers should be able to deal with argy-bargy.

    Wonder whether you would think it a "trivial" matter if it had been directed a female MP from REMAIN rather than LEAVE? ;)
    Absolutely spot on - who'd have guessed that bullying and sexism varies with political beliefs.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Just renaming something unpopular and pretending it's entirely different worked splendidly with the Constitution/Lisbon Treaty, didn't it?
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.
  • HHemmeligHHemmelig Posts: 617
    Anazina said:

    Why do the PB Tories loathe John Bercow so much?

    Probably because we are more likely to have actually met him. Some perhaps bumped into him when he was a repulsive "Hang Mandela" student Conservative leader, and a hard right councillor in Streatham. His former extreme politics does make it stick in the craw somewhat these days when he lectures others on diversity, Brexit, Trump etc.

    Neil Kinnock once said "everyone likes Ken Livingstone except those who know him"...I suspect that might be the case on Bercow too.

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,123

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Notable how some of this site’s leading Brexiteer and Neobrexiteers don’t live in the UK, or anywhere near it.

    RCS1000, Carlotta, Sandpit and Archer to name a few.

    Telling.

    That is why they are called "Leavers". They have left .... :D
    :D Ah! Thanks for clarifying

    I was obviously being unkind in my assumption that they liked pontificating from the sidelines safe in the knowledge that their deranged project won't impact them.
    Or bringing perspective of those who have lived in foreign parts and remain astonished at the insularity of those who have only ever lived in Britain?
    Plenty of Remain supporters have also lived abroad, myself for 6 years in two stints and two countries. Indeed, I believe not having a passport correlated with Leave voting.
    You can't really have it both ways. "Brexiteers are ex-pats" and "Brexiteers are xenophobic little Englanders" can't both be true.
    This may be a sensationally new idea, but might some Brexiteers be expats who are happy to play out an experiment that they won't suffer any fallout from and some other Brexiteers be xenophobic little Englanders?

    This hypothesis seems to fit many of the available facts. Perhaps we could look into it further.
    Or perhaps, some who live abroad think Democracy is more important than Economics?
    When they're wholly unaffected by the economics, that's not going to weigh on their minds, is it? So they can indulge their mad hatred of the EU onto which they project all the wickednesses of the world, and they do.
    Why would you suppose they're wholly unaffected by the economics?

    I would assume many have ties, family members, property, investments and pensions in the UK. I certainly have most of those - and others have talked of plans to return to the UK.

    Perhaps distance has afforded perspective?

    If you're looking for mad hatred look in a mirror.
    Everyhone living in EU countries with Uk based pensions or incomes, including me, suffered immediate 20+ % income drops following the Brexit result and most of that loss continues today. No-one in that category who voted Leave would claim to be unaffected economically.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    As a supporter of the monarchy I ask myself these same questions.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,123
    Anazina said:

    Why do the PB Tories loathe John Bercow so much?

    Do they dislike him as much as the Tube scene in His Darkest Hour?

    So you're ok if I call you a f****g stupid woman then?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Anazina said:

    Why do the PB Tories loathe John Bercow so much?

    Do they dislike him as much as the Tube scene in His Darkest Hour?

    Why does our asylum of remainiacs love him so much?
    Wrong collective noun.
    According to the OED, its an “arrogance” of Remainers, and a “fuckwittery” of Leavers.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Notable how some of this site’s leading Brexiteer and Neobrexiteers don’t live in the UK, or anywhere near it.

    RCS1000, Carlotta, Sandpit and Archer to name a few.

    Telling.

    That is why they are called "Leavers". They have left .... :D
    :D Ah! Thanks for clarifying

    I was obviously being unkind in my assumption that they liked pontificating from the sidelines safe in the knowledge that their deranged project won't impact them.
    Or bringing perspective of those who have lived in foreign parts and remain astonished at the insularity of those who have only ever lived in Britain?
    Plenty of Remain supporters have also lived abroad, myself for 6 years in two stints and two countries. Indeed, I believe not having a passport correlated with Leave voting.
    You can't really have it both ways. "Brexiteers are ex-pats" and "Brexiteers are xenophobic little Englanders" can't both be true.
    This may be a sensationally new idea, but might some Brexiteers be expats who are happy to play out an experiment that they won't suffer any fallout from and some other Brexiteers be xenophobic little Englanders?

    This hypothesis seems to fit many of the available facts. Perhaps we could look into it further.
    Or perhaps, some who live abroad think Democracy is more important than Economics?
    When they're wholly unaffected by the economics, that's not going to weigh on their minds, is it? So they can indulge their mad hatred of the EU onto which they project all the wickednesses of the world, and they do.
    Just because I think poorly of the EU doesn't mean I think it is wicked, and certainly not responsible for all the wickedness in the world. I don't think their intent is nefarious. It is just deeply flawed and thinks democracy is of little value beyond appearances.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    My only wish for tommorow is that Henry doesn't go too mad with the razor
  • HHemmeligHHemmelig Posts: 617
    MaxPB said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    As a supporter of the monarchy I ask myself these same questions.
    Like it or not we live in a celebrity-obsessed culture and (unlike politicians) the royals have become very adept at using that to their advantage.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Pulpstar said:

    My only wish for tommorow is that Henry doesn't go too mad with the razor

    what odds did you get?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812
    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
    Corbyn?
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    HYUFD said:

    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:


    Except he hasn't, regulatory alignment over Ireland does not require full single market membership nor does it prevent FOM being replaced by work permits as both May and Corbyn have made clear and even if there ended up being FOM from the Republic to NI that would not apply from continental Europe to the UK

    If freedom of movement does indeed end (and I'm far from convinced it will, in the forseeable future), it will most likely only do so in a technical sense, with so-called "work permits" being no more difficult to obtain for EU citizens than an ESTA to visit the US. That does hopefully mean being able to keep out known criminals and undesireables, but we probably won't have any more control on EU immigration beyond that, certainly no cap on numbers. Time will tell how the Leave electorate respond, I suspect many are already pretty bored with the issue.
    Maybe but it would still technically end FoM
    And finally, the HYUFD cat is out of the bag. You go on about how Brexit means the end of freedom of movement, but in reality you just want to SAY it has been ended. You know May will sell you out so now it is just about 'technically' ending it.

    So, when there are 'work permits' which as HHemmelig says will be available without application or limit, it won't cause any reduction in immigration. And, of course, as this will be part of the new treaty with the EU the UK won't be able to change - so there will be no 'taking back control' or 'taking control of our borders' - just yet another in a long line of Tory sellouts on Europe.

    Good to see you have your rationalisation ready to go...
    +1
    When I was a teenager there was a comedy show by Harry Enfield featuring a man that got very angry about hypotheticals he conjured up in his head. This reminds me of that. If the government does extend uncontrolled immigration you have every right to get angry, but it hasn't bloody happened yet.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    HHemmelig said:

    MaxPB said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    As a supporter of the monarchy I ask myself these same questions.
    Like it or not we live in a celebrity-obsessed culture and (unlike politicians) the royals have become very adept at using that to their advantage.
    Media attention for the royals is there whether they court it or not, and has certainly been a mixed blessing for William and Harry thus far.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
    I'm a Labour leaver. Well, I was until Militant took over our Labour party. I suspect most of us are Republicans.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
    Corbyn?
    Ah yes. So that's two. What strange bedfellows.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    edited May 2018
    Elliot said:

    HYUFD said:

    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:


    Except he hasn't, regulatory alignment over Ireland does not require full single market membership nor does it prevent FOM being replaced by work permits as both May and Corbyn have made clear and even if there ended up being FOM from the Republic to NI that would not apply from continental Europe to the UK

    If freedom of movement does indeed end (and I'm far from convinced it will, in the forseeable future), it will most likely only do so in a technical sense, with so-called "work permits" being no more difficult to obtain for EU citizens than an ESTA to visit the US. That does hopefully mean being able to keep out known criminals and undesireables, but we probably won't have any more control on EU immigration beyond that, certainly no cap on numbers. Time will tell how the Leave electorate respond, I suspect many are already pretty bored with the issue.
    Maybe but it would still technically end FoM
    And finally, the HYUFD cat is out of the bag. You go on about how Brexit means the end of freedom of movement, but in reality you just want to SAY it has been ended. You know May will sell you out so now it is just about 'technically' ending it.

    So, when there are 'work permits' which as HHemmelig says will be available without application or limit, it won't cause any reduction in immigration. And, of course, as this will be part of the new treaty with the EU the UK won't be able to change - so there will be no 'taking back control' or 'taking control of our borders' - just yet another in a long line of Tory sellouts on Europe.

    Good to see you have your rationalisation ready to go...
    +1
    When I was a teenager there was a comedy show by Harry Enfield featuring a man that got very angry about hypotheticals he conjured up in his head. This reminds me of that. If the government does extend uncontrolled immigration you have every right to get angry, but it hasn't bloody happened yet.
    What this government is going to give us is a Solution Hypothesised As Making Britain Leave Europe Soon.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
    Corbyn?

    Hah! Elliot is Corbyn! I knew it!!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,273
    edited May 2018
    Feck it - Let's hope Don't Know gets elected soon.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
    *raised hand*

    Plus I know many more.

    Republicanism: A belief we should democratically choose our own head of state.
    Brexitism: A belief we should democratically choose our own government.

    Why are those incompatible? They're entirely consistent.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    Scott_P said:
    Sadly, he’s taken his ball home.
    Still, at least he’s following his principles. What chance of Boris or Fox doing a flounce?

    https://twitter.com/andrew_lilico/status/997465393336848384?s=21
    Unspoofable. ;)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
    *raised hand*

    Plus I know many more.

    Republicanism: A belief we should democratically choose our own head of state.
    Brexitism: A belief we should democratically choose our own government.

    Why are those incompatible? They're entirely consistent.
    Yes well I suppose they are (further cries of "No, I am Spartacus" around the PB halls).

    I just never thought about it - does it (the Brexitation) stem from your dislike of the EU inhibiting the creation of a true socialist state?
  • HHemmeligHHemmelig Posts: 617

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
    Corbyn?
    Skinner and, from beyond the grave, Tony Benn. I seem to recall John Cleese being a republican though I'm not sure.

    Basically a very aged rump of lefties. I doubt many under 50s would be part of the republican leaver group.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Notable how some of this site’s leading Brexiteer and Neobrexiteers don’t live in the UK, or anywhere near it.

    RCS1000, Carlotta, Sandpit and Archer to name a few.

    Telling.

    That is why they are called "Leavers". They have left .... :D
    :D Ah! Thanks for clarifying

    I was obviously being unkind in my assumption that they liked pontificating from the sidelines safe in the knowledge that their deranged project won't impact them.
    Or bringing perspective of those who have lived in foreign parts and remain astonished at the insularity of those who have only ever lived in Britain?
    Plenty of Remain supporters have also lived abroad, myself for 6 years in two stints and two countries. Indeed, I believe not having a passport correlated with Leave voting.
    You can't really have it both ways. "Brexiteers are ex-pats" and "Brexiteers are xenophobic little Englanders" can't both be true.
    This may be a sensationally new idea, but might some Brexiteers be expats who are happy to play out an experiment that they won't suffer any fallout from and some other Brexiteers be xenophobic little Englanders?

    This hypothesis seems to fit many of the available facts. Perhaps we could look into it further.
    Or perhaps, some who live abroad think Democracy is more important than Economics?
    When they're wholly unaffected by the economics, that's not going to weigh on their minds, is it? So they can indulge their mad hatred of the EU onto which they project all the wickednesses of the world, and they do.
    Why would you suppose they're wholly unaffected by the economics?

    I would assume many have ties, family members, property, investments and pensions in the UK. I certainly have most of those - and others have talked of plans to return to the UK.

    Perhaps distance has afforded perspective?

    If you're looking for mad hatred look in a mirror.
    Everyhone living in EU countries with Uk based pensions or incomes, including me, suffered immediate 20+ % income drops following the Brexit result and most of that loss continues today. No-one in that category who voted Leave would claim to be unaffected economically.
    Just as well Mr Meeks doesn't work on pensions, isn't it?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669
    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
    Whereas the Venn diagram of US Republicans (Trump division) and Brexiteers has quite an overlap.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    Pulpstar said:

    My only wish for tommorow is that Henry doesn't go too mad with the razor

    But that Meghan does?!?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
    You're pointing at my slice of the Venn diagram.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Notable how some of this site’s leading Brexiteer and Neobrexiteers don’t live in the UK, or anywhere near it.

    RCS1000, Carlotta, Sandpit and Archer to name a few.

    Telling.

    That is why they are called "Leavers". They have left .... :D
    :D Ah! Thanks for clarifying

    I was obviously being unkind in my assumption that they liked pontificating from the sidelines safe in the knowledge that their deranged project won't impact them.
    Or bringing perspective of those who have lived in foreign parts and remain astonished at the insularity of those who have only ever lived in Britain?
    Plenty of Remain supporters have also lived abroad, myself for 6 years in two stints and two countries. Indeed, I believe not having a passport correlated with Leave voting.
    You can't really have it both ways. "Brexiteers are ex-pats" and "Brexiteers are xenophobic little Englanders" can't both be true.
    This may be a sensationally new idea, but might some Brexiteers be expats who are happy to play out an experiment that they won't suffer any fallout from and some other Brexiteers be xenophobic little Englanders?

    This hypothesis seems to fit many of the available facts. Perhaps we could look into it further.
    Or perhaps, some who live abroad think Democracy is more important than Economics?
    When they're wholly unaffected by the economics, that's not going to weigh on their minds, is it? So they can indulge their mad hatred of the EU onto which they project all the wickednesses of the world, and they do.
    Just because I think poorly of the EU doesn't mean I think it is wicked, and certainly not responsible for all the wickedness in the world. I don't think their intent is nefarious. It is just deeply flawed and thinks democracy is of little value beyond appearances.
    Yet its defenders characterise the EU's critics 'mad hatred' as such, 'the lady doth protest too much, methinks'.....
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
    You're pointing at my slice of the Venn diagram.
    Yep, as @Gardenwalker pointed out - disgruntled old lefty.

    Fair enough.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited May 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    My only wish for tommorow is that Henry doesn't go too mad with the razor

    Why would he?

    Perhaps the likely next Duke of Sussex likes the look .... but more importantly what Scottish peerage will be conferred upon Prince Henry .... Earl of Auchentennach ? .... :smile:
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
    *raised hand*

    Plus I know many more.

    Republicanism: A belief we should democratically choose our own head of state.
    Brexitism: A belief we should democratically choose our own government.

    Why are those incompatible? They're entirely consistent.
    Plenty of Conservatives have no particular attachment to the concept of monarchy, but they do have a specific attachment to the incumbent, and a general presumption against changing things that have worked for centuries.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,123
    V. interesting - tweet from a former Labour MP!
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
    Corbyn?
    Is he small too?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,123

    felix said:

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Notable how some of this site’s leading Brexiteer and Neobrexiteers don’t live in the UK, or anywhere near it.

    RCS1000, Carlotta, Sandpit and Archer to name a few.

    Telling.

    That is why they are called "Leavers". They have left .... :D
    :D Ah! Thanks for clarifying



    You can't really have it both ways. "Brexiteers are ex-pats" and "Brexiteers are xenophobic little Englanders" can't both be true.
    This may be a sensationally new idea, but might some Brexiteers be expats who are happy to play out an experiment that they won't suffer any fallout from and some other Brexiteers be xenophobic little Englanders?

    This hypothesis seems to fit many of the available facts. Perhaps we could look into it further.
    Or perhaps, some who live abroad think Democracy is more important than Economics?
    When they're wholly unaffected by the economics, that's not going to weigh on their minds, is it? So they can indulge their mad hatred of the EU onto which they project all the wickednesses of the world, and they do.
    Why would you suppose they're wholly unaffected by the economics?

    I would assume many have ties, family members, property, investments and pensions in the UK. I certainly have most of those - and others have talked of plans to return to the UK.

    Perhaps distance has afforded perspective?

    If you're looking for mad hatred look in a mirror.
    Everyhone living in EU countries with Uk based pensions or incomes, including me, suffered immediate 20+ % income drops following the Brexit result and most of that loss continues today. No-one in that category who voted Leave would claim to be unaffected economically.
    Just as well Mr Meeks doesn't work on pensions, isn't it?
    Completely blinded by an ability to accept a democratic vote. Very sad.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Notable how some of this site’s leading Brexiteer and Neobrexiteers don’t live in the UK, or anywhere near it.

    RCS1000, Carlotta, Sandpit and Archer to name a few.

    Telling.

    That is why they are called "Leavers". They have left .... :D
    :D Ah! Thanks for clarifying

    I was obviously being unkind in my assumption that they liked pontificating from the sidelines safe in the knowledge that their deranged project won't impact them.
    Or bringing perspective of those who have lived in foreign parts and remain astonished at the insularity of those who have only ever lived in Britain?
    Plenty of Remain supporters have also lived abroad, myself for 6 years in two stints and two countries. Indeed, I believe not having a passport correlated with Leave voting.
    You can't really have it both ways. "Brexiteers are ex-pats" and "Brexiteers are xenophobic little Englanders" can't both be true.
    This may be a sensationally new idea, but might some Brexiteers be expats who are happy to play out an experiment that they won't suffer any fallout from and some other Brexiteers be xenophobic little Englanders?

    This hypothesis seems to fit many of the available facts. Perhaps we could look into it further.
    Or perhaps, some who live abroad think Democracy is more important than Economics?
    When they're wholly unaffected by the economics, that's not going to weigh on their minds, is it? So they can indulge their mad hatred of the EU onto which they project all the wickednesses of the world, and they do.
    Just because I think poorly of the EU doesn't mean I think it is wicked, and certainly not responsible for all the wickedness in the world. I don't think their intent is nefarious. It is just deeply flawed and thinks democracy is of little value beyond appearances.
    Yet its defenders characterise the EU's critics 'mad hatred' as such, 'the lady doth protest too much, methinks'.....
    Only yesterday a well-known commentator who poses as a Leave moderate described Britain as being on a "transition to freedom". The routine way in which Leave advocates describe the EU as some form of malign authoritarian power is both absurd and disgusting.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Max, one has the sneaking suspicion it's mostly women who are into the wedding, because they're more into weddings generally. Be interesting to get some polling on that.
  • HHemmeligHHemmelig Posts: 617

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
    *raised hand*

    Plus I know many more.

    Republicanism: A belief we should democratically choose our own head of state.
    Brexitism: A belief we should democratically choose our own government.

    Why are those incompatible? They're entirely consistent.
    Plenty of Conservatives have no particular attachment to the concept of monarchy, but they do have a specific attachment to the incumbent, and a general presumption against changing things that have worked for centuries.
    And, by contrast, Labour's old working class industrial heartlands contain far more devoted monarchists than Skinner-esque republican lefties. My grandma, lifelong Labour voting miner's widow and happily still with us at 95, will be hanging up the bunting with the best of them and won't hear a word said against the royals.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    felix said:



    Everyhone living in EU countries with Uk based pensions or incomes, including me, suffered immediate 20+ % income drops following the Brexit result and most of that loss continues today. No-one in that category who voted Leave would claim to be unaffected economically.

    Just as well Mr Meeks doesn't work on pensions, isn't it?
    felix voted Remain, though he affects to forget that nowadays. More of an illustration of my point than a refutation.
  • ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    HHemmelig said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
    *raised hand*

    Plus I know many more.

    Republicanism: A belief we should democratically choose our own head of state.
    Brexitism: A belief we should democratically choose our own government.

    Why are those incompatible? They're entirely consistent.
    Plenty of Conservatives have no particular attachment to the concept of monarchy, but they do have a specific attachment to the incumbent, and a general presumption against changing things that have worked for centuries.
    And, by contrast, Labour's old working class industrial heartlands contain far more devoted monarchists than Skinner-esque republican lefties. My grandma, lifelong Labour voting miner's widow and happily still with us at 95, will be hanging up the bunting with the best of them and won't hear a word said against the royals.
    I think it had something to do with lauding the super nobs as a way of doing down the much more numerous common or garden nobs. Or is that too perverse?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. P, 'mansplain' remains a ridiculous and obnoxious comment, regardless of whether Davidson has a point about Sheerman. The idea making a term pejorative by adding a gender-based prefix is a good thing is bloody stupid.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
    You're pointing at my slice of the Venn diagram.
    Yep, as @Gardenwalker pointed out - disgruntled old lefty.

    Fair enough.
    I'm not disgruntled. I am happy and carefree. Looking towards the sunlit uplands of an independent Socialist republic.

    I'm not that old either. Although closer to 60 than 40 would be one way to look at it.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    felix said:

    V. interesting - tweet from a former Labour MP!
    Think back to 2015: Tom was one of the Lizard people. He represented her campaign at our CLP meeting.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,812

    Mr. P, 'mansplain' remains a ridiculous and obnoxious comment, regardless of whether Davidson has a point about Sheerman. The idea making a term pejorative by adding a gender-based prefix is a good thing is bloody stupid.

    It’s actually a very good term for a common phenomenon.

    HYUFD is PB’s preeminent mansplainer. I love it when he affects to school us on antipodean politics and the geography of west london.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392

    Elliot said:

    Foxy said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Notable how some of this site’s leading Brexiteer and Neobrexiteers don’t live in the UK, or anywhere near it.

    RCS1000, Carlotta, Sandpit and Archer to name a few.

    Telling.

    That is why they are called "Leavers". They have left .... :D
    :D Ah! Thanks for clarifying

    I was obviously being unkind in my assumption that they liked pontificating from the sidelines safe in the knowledge that their deranged project won't impact them.
    Or bringing perspective of those who have lived in foreign parts and remain astonished at the insularity of those who have only ever lived in Britain?
    Plenty of Remain supporters have also lived abroad, myself for 6 years in two stints and two countries. Indeed, I believe not having a passport correlated with Leave voting.
    You can't really have it both ways. "Brexiteers are ex-pats" and "Brexiteers are xenophobic little Englanders" can't both be true.
    This may be a sensationally new idea, but might some Brexiteers be expats who are happy to play out an experiment that they won't suffer any fallout from and some other Brexiteers be xenophobic little Englanders?

    This hypothesis seems to fit many of the available facts. Perhaps we could look into it further.
    Or perhaps, some who live abroad think Democracy is more important than Economics?
    When they're wholly unaffected by the economics, that's not going to weigh on their minds, is it? So they can indulge their mad hatred of the EU onto which they project all the wickednesses of the world, and they do.
    Just because I think poorly of the EU doesn't mean I think it is wicked, and certainly not responsible for all the wickedness in the world. I don't think their intent is nefarious. It is just deeply flawed and thinks democracy is of little value beyond appearances.
    Yet its defenders characterise the EU's critics 'mad hatred' as such, 'the lady doth protest too much, methinks'.....
    Only yesterday a well-known commentator who poses as a Leave moderate described Britain as being on a "transition to freedom". The routine way in which Leave advocates describe the EU as some form of malign authoritarian power is both absurd and disgusting.
    What form of authoritarian power should we describe it as?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    HHemmelig said:

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
    *raised hand*

    Plus I know many more.

    Republicanism: A belief we should democratically choose our own head of state.
    Brexitism: A belief we should democratically choose our own government.

    Why are those incompatible? They're entirely consistent.
    Plenty of Conservatives have no particular attachment to the concept of monarchy, but they do have a specific attachment to the incumbent, and a general presumption against changing things that have worked for centuries.
    And, by contrast, Labour's old working class industrial heartlands contain far more devoted monarchists than Skinner-esque republican lefties. My grandma, lifelong Labour voting miner's widow and happily still with us at 95, will be hanging up the bunting with the best of them and won't hear a word said against the royals.
    False consciousness, Stockholm Syndrome, and any excuse for a party all rolled in to one.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,911

    TOPPING said:

    Elliot said:

    As a republican, I get how the wedding of the future King is important. I even get how the wedding of the future King's brother deserves coverage as a national celebration. What I don't get is how who is walking the bride down the aisle is front page news.

    YOU ARE A REPUBLICAN!???

    Now I would have thought the union set of republicans and Brexiters would be super small.
    *raised hand*

    Plus I know many more.

    Republicanism: A belief we should democratically choose our own head of state.
    Brexitism: A belief we should democratically choose our own government.

    Why are those incompatible? They're entirely consistent.
    Monarchism is essentially a form of Socialism! "What are you on about, Sunil?" I hear you cry!

    Well, consider:

    1) Monarchs have a job for life, which is quintessentially Socialist!

    2) The hereditary principle, a feature of Socialist dynasties around the world, such as the Kennedys in the USA, Nehru-Gandhis in India, and the Kims in North Korea!

    3) Pomp and circumstance - Trooping the Colour is after all merely a toned down version of all those North Korean and (former) Soviet military parades!

    So, my fellow PBers, I put it to you that Monarchism = Socialism!

    :)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Walker, if you think normalising pejorative terms based on gender is smart, then I think you're a tinker.

    This nonsense about 'toxic masculinity' makes it more difficult to discuss problems that particularly affect men (suicide being high on the list) because it describes the very concept of manhood as something bad, standing in contrast to the loveliness of womanhood (the man who recently ended his own life after being unable to go on with the injuries his ex-girlfriend inflicted on him by throwing acid in his face might have disagreed with said stereotype).

    I don't think it's moral, intelligent, or wise to criticise people based on their skin colour or gender, or to try and normalise racially charged and sexist language in everyday political discourse. But that's just me.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Dr. Prasannan, cooler, six years.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548



    Only yesterday a well-known commentator who poses as a Leave moderate described Britain as being on a "transition to freedom". The routine way in which Leave advocates describe the EU as some form of malign authoritarian power is both absurd and disgusting.

    Is it the word 'freedom' you have a problem with?

    The word which primarily has these synonyms, according to my thesaurus

    1 independence, democracy, sovereignty
    They want greater political freedom.
    independence the country's first elections since independence in 1962
    democracy the spread of democracy in Eastern Europe
    sovereignty
    autonomy They stepped up their demands for local autonomy.
    self-determination The principle of self-determination is sacred to us.
    emancipation
    self-government a campaign for more self-government
    home rule
    autarchy


    Freedom doesn't have to mean release from slavery.
This discussion has been closed.