It is worth bearing in mind that Theresa May is not yet committed public to BINO. Leavers should thus make absolutely clear that control of our laws and control of who gets to permanently migrate here are absolute red lines.
If Leavers are unhappy at compromises beyond that, the smart thing to do is not to throw their hands up and storm off, but to bank the victories they do get (out of political union, freedom of movement, fisheries, agriculture) and keep pushing. Demand the next Tory leader goes further. If they don't, vote against them until they get a leader that does.
As I have said repeatedly we wont end up leaving the EU at all.
If this is BINO then that doesn't count for my prediction. But BINO will probably bring May's government down and then who knows; 2nd ref etc etc.
I am still (very slimly) on course...
May's allowed Brexit to self-destruct pretty skillfully. Now we're at the stage where erstwhile Leavers will start saying there's no point and we'll end up having a second referendum which will settle the issue.
I would say though that a 2nd referendum takes us into very dangerous territory as far as division in the country is concerned.
Other countries manage to hold second referendums without too many problems. We've all been on a learning curve over the past 2 years and it's only Conservative voters holding up the "right to Leave" side at the moment. If figures like Boris and Gove switch sides and adopt a more sober tone it will allow people space to reconsider.
Why on earth is she going to hold a second referendum? Why?
She’ll be frog marched out of No 10 pronto by the Tory party. They don’t want another round, neither do their voters by and large I’d assume, and really as long as they can muster votes of confidence in the HoC that’s that.
She may be forced to by parliament.
That’s the only route. But it’s a stretch even for the Tory rebels because it would rip the party apart, and the country, and they know it. PM Corbyn would result very likely and that ironically may be just the right amount of glue needed for them.
The country needs a second convulsive referendum right now like a hole in the head.
As I have said repeatedly we wont end up leaving the EU at all.
If this is BINO then that doesn't count for my prediction. But BINO will probably bring May's government down and then who knows; 2nd ref etc etc.
I am still (very slimly) on course...
May's allowed Brexit to self-destruct pretty skillfully. Now we're at the stage where erstwhile Leavers will start saying there's no point and we'll end up having a second referendum which will settle the issue.
I would say though that a 2nd referendum takes us into very dangerous territory as far as division in the country is concerned.
Other countries manage to hold second referendums without too many problems. We've all been on a learning curve over the past 2 years and it's only Conservative voters holding up the "right to Leave" side at the moment. If figures like Boris and Gove switch sides and adopt a more sober tone it will allow people space to reconsider.
Why on earth is she going to hold a second referendum? Why?
She’ll be frog marched out of No 10 pronto by the Tory party. They don’t want another round, neither do their voters by and large I’d assume, and really as long as they can muster votes of confidence in the HoC that’s that.
She may be forced to by parliament.
That’s the only route. But it’s a stretch even for the Tory revels because it would rip the party apart, and the country, and they know it. PM Corbyn would result very likely and that ironically may be just the right amount of glue needed for them.
The Tory party would be gutted of its activist and councillor base if it reneged on Brexit.
As I have said repeatedly we wont end up leaving the EU at all.
If this is BINO then that doesn't count for my prediction. But BINO will probably bring May's government down and then who knows; 2nd ref etc etc.
I am still (very slimly) on course...
May's allowed Brexit to self-destruct pretty skillfully. Now we're at the stage where erstwhile Leavers will start saying there's no point and we'll end up having a second referendum which will settle the issue.
I would say though that a 2nd referendum takes us into very dangerous territory as far as division in the country is concerned.
I'm looking forward to it. I'm going on the march on June 23rd. I hope it equals the Iraq march.
Question: Which foreign leaders are in favour of Brexit? Answer: Trump to weaken us in trade negotiations. Putin to weaken us militarily.
Probably be about as effective as the Iraq march, too.
I don’t agree because although the Iraq March did nothing to change policy directly, it was part of a society-wide turn against foreign adventures which in large part ended Blair’s premiership and continues to cast a long shadow on foreign policy (see the recent Syria debate). And look at Blair now.
Brexit is this generation’s Iraq War.
Spot on. That's what I was thinking but you said it better.
As I have said repeatedly we wont end up leaving the EU at all.
If this is BINO then that doesn't count for my prediction. But BINO will probably bring May's government down and then who knows; 2nd ref etc etc.
I am still (very slimly) on course...
May's allowed Brexit to self-destruct pretty skillfully. Now we're at the stage where erstwhile Leavers will start saying there's no point and we'll end up having a second referendum which will settle the issue.
I would say though that a 2nd referendum takes us into very dangerous territory as far as division in the country is concerned.
Other countries manage to hold second referendums without too many problems. We've all been on a learning curve over the past 2 years and it's only Conservative voters holding up the "right to Leave" side at the moment. If figures like Boris and Gove switch sides and adopt a more sober tone it will allow people space to reconsider.
Why on earth is she going to hold a second referendum? Why?
She’ll be frog marched out of No 10 pronto by the Tory party. They don’t want another round, neither do their voters by and large I’d assume, and really as long as they can muster votes of confidence in the HoC that’s that.
She may be forced to by parliament. As to why: in order to rectify the mess Cameron wrought.
She won't when arguably Corbyn is even more committed to Brexit than she is
As I have said repeatedly we wont end up leaving the EU at all.
If this is BINO then that doesn't count for my prediction. But BINO will probably bring May's government down and then who knows; 2nd ref etc etc.
I am still (very slimly) on course...
May's allowed Brexit to self-destruct pretty skillfully. Now we're at the stage where erstwhile Leavers will start saying there's no point and we'll end up having a second referendum which will settle the issue.
I would say though that a 2nd referendum takes us into very dangerous territory as far as division in the country is concerned.
Other countries manage to hold second referendums without too many problems. We've all been on a learning curve over the past 2 years and it's only Conservative voters holding up the "right to Leave" side at the moment. If figures like Boris and Gove switch sides and adopt a more sober tone it will allow people space to reconsider.
Why on earth is she going to hold a second referendum? Why?
She’ll be frog marched out of No 10 pronto by the Tory party. They don’t want another round, neither do their voters by and large I’d assume, and really as long as they can muster votes of confidence in the HoC that’s that.
She may be forced to by parliament. As to why: in order to rectify the mess Cameron wrought.
So when the country votes in, they don't get asked again for a half century and a half dozen treaty changes. When it votes out, they keep on getting asked even before the result is implemented.
Given Remainers have so much disdain for a genuine democracy, why bother with the charade at all? Just admit you think certain policies should be so regardless of the plebs and they don't get a say. It would be more honest.
As I have said repeatedly we wont end up leaving the EU at all.
If this is BINO then that doesn't count for my prediction. But BINO will probably bring May's government down and then who knows; 2nd ref etc etc.
I am still (very slimly) on course...
May's allowed Brexit to self-destruct pretty skillfully. Now we're at the stage where erstwhile Leavers will start saying there's no point and we'll end up having a second referendum which will settle the issue.
I would say though that a 2nd referendum takes us into very dangerous territory as far as division in the country is concerned.
Other countries manage to hold second referendums without too many problems. We've all been on a learning curve over the past 2 years and it's only Conservative voters holding up the "right to Leave" side at the moment. If figures like Boris and Gove switch sides and adopt a more sober tone it will allow people space to reconsider.
Why on earth is she going to hold a second referendum? Why?
She’ll be frog marched out of No 10 pronto by the Tory party. They don’t want another round, neither do their voters by and large I’d assume, and really as long as they can muster votes of confidence in the HoC that’s that.
She may be forced to by parliament.
That’s the only route. But it’s a stretch even for the Tory revels because it would rip the party apart, and the country, and they know it. PM Corbyn would result very likely and that ironically may be just the right amount of glue needed for them.
The Tory party would be gutted of its activist and councillor base if it reneged on Brexit.
The Tory party wouldn't be reneging on Brexit - it would have delivered a workable Brexit deal to the people, and it would be up to the people to decide.
The Tory party is more than just the governing wing of UKIP.
Actually I see my polite lack of interest is generally shared - two thirds of the public aren't interested in the wedding (with little difference between the parties) and dislike it getting public funding, though they like the Queen and would not favour abolishing the monarchy (though only 30% feel strongly).
The wedding is not getting public funding, only the security which would be the same for any big event such as the wedding of the son or daughter or grandchild of a president
LOL , we get to pay for over 5000 police and assorted thousands other lackeys. If only we could muster that amount of police catching criminals. PS: Given their vast fortunes have been robbed from the public we are paying for the whole sh*tfest. Given they are all unemployed they could not pay anything towards it without the public cash.
I love the Royal Family for the reasoned comments that they generate like those above. I mean if we didn't have a queen we'd have a president - that would be great wouldn't it?
As I have said repeatedly we wont end up leaving the EU at all.
If this is BINO then that doesn't count for my prediction. But BINO will probably bring May's government down and then who knows; 2nd ref etc etc.
I am still (very slimly) on course...
May's allowed Brexit to self-destruct pretty skillfully. Now we're at the stage where erstwhile Leavers will start saying there's no point and we'll end up having a second referendum which will settle the issue.
I would say though that a 2nd referendum takes us into very dangerous territory as far as division in the country is concerned.
Other countries manage to hold second referendums without too many problems. We've all been on a learning curve over the past 2 years and it's only Conservative voters holding up the "right to Leave" side at the moment. If figures like Boris and Gove switch sides and adopt a more sober tone it will allow people space to reconsider.
Why on earth is she going to hold a second referendum? Why?
She’ll be frog marched out of No 10 pronto by the Tory party. They don’t want another round, neither do their voters by and large I’d assume, and really as long as they can muster votes of confidence in the HoC that’s that.
She may be forced to by parliament. As to why: in order to rectify the mess Cameron wrought.
I still tend to regard it as Heath’s mess that successive PM’s from Major through Brown and Blair did nothing to rectify by seeking our explicit consent for an ever more integrationist path. Cameron was at least trying to diffuse the time bomb ( if cack handedly ) when it went off.
On the Royal Wedding, I'm on the indifferent side, but it must be a boost for tourism, if only from the extra Americans. For that reason, good on them.
Easy enough to avoid the telly for one day with such good weather. A sacrifice for the good of the country. Mrs Dent-Coady just sounds unnecessarily nasty.
As I have said repeatedly we wont end up leaving the EU at all.
If this is BINO then that doesn't count for my prediction. But BINO will probably bring May's government down and then who knows; 2nd ref etc etc.
I am still (very slimly) on course...
May's allowed Brexit to self-destruct pretty skillfully. Now we're at the stage where erstwhile Leavers will start saying there's no point and we'll end up having a second referendum which will settle the issue.
I would say though that a 2nd referendum takes us into very dangerous territory as far as division in the country is concerned.
I'm looking forward to it. I'm going on the march on June 23rd. I hope it equals the Iraq march.
Question: Which foreign leaders are in favour of Brexit? Answer: Trump to weaken us in trade negotiations. Putin to weaken us militarily.
While I have no doubt that Sam Coates has an inside track, his article doesn't explain what will be done about freedom of movement. The EU have consistently made it clear that the four freedoms are indivisible and that Britain can't be in the single market without freedom of movement. So how is that going to be reconciled?
We are not going to be in the single market, just have some regulatory alignment with it to avoid a hard Brexit in Ireland.
In any case we are owed some concessions on freedom of movement after Blair refused to take the transition controls most EU nations took from 2004 to 2011 on free movement from the new accession nations
It will indeed be exactly what I predicted about 3 days after the referendum. We will end up staying inside “versions” of the CU and SM but they will be called something else to save face. Classic eurofudge.
Where we go from there is the moot point.
If we still can't control the influx of low skill workers or stop the ECJ from deciding our law, it will be a betrayal of the vote. The conservatives should rightly lose to Corbyn at the next election.
One thing I think remainers who want a second referendum haven't taken into account is a second leave victory.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
As I have said repeatedly we wont end up leaving the EU at all.
If this is BINO then that doesn't count for my prediction. But BINO will probably bring May's government down and then who knows; 2nd ref etc etc.
I am still (very slimly) on course...
May's allowed Brexit to self-destruct pretty skillfully. Now we're at the stage where erstwhile Leavers will start saying there's no point and we'll end up having a second referendum which will settle the issue.
I would say though that a 2nd referendum takes us into very dangerous territory as far as division in the country is concerned.
Other countries manage to hold second referendums without too many problems. We've all been on a learning curve over the past 2 years and it's only Conservative voters holding up the "right to Leave" side at the moment. If figures like Boris and Gove switch sides and adopt a more sober tone it will allow people space to reconsider.
Why on earth is she going to hold a second referendum? Why?
She’ll be frog marched out of No 10 pronto by the Tory party. They don’t want another round, neither do their voters by and large I’d assume, and really as long as they can muster votes of confidence in the HoC that’s that.
She may be forced to by parliament.
That’s the only route. But it’s a stretch even for the Tory revels because it would rip the party apart, and the country, and they know it. PM Corbyn would result very likely and that ironically may be just the right amount of glue needed for them.
The Tory party would be gutted of its activist and councillor base if it reneged on Brexit.
The Tory party wouldn't be reneging on Brexit - it would have delivered a workable Brexit deal to the people, and it would be up to the people to decide.
The Tory party is more than just the governing wing of UKIP.
As I have said repeatedly we wont end up leaving the EU at all.
If this is BINO then that doesn't count for my prediction. But BINO will probably bring May's government down and then who knows; 2nd ref etc etc.
I am still (very slimly) on course...
May's allowed Brexit to self-destruct pretty skillfully. Now we're at the stage where erstwhile Leavers will start saying there's no point and we'll end up having a second referendum which will settle the issue.
I would say though that a 2nd referendum takes us into very dangerous territory as far as division in the country is concerned.
I'm looking forward to it. I'm going on the march on June 23rd. I hope it equals the Iraq march.
Question: Which foreign leaders are in favour of Brexit? Answer: Trump to weaken us in trade negotiations. Putin to weaken us militarily.
While I have no doubt that Sam Coates has an inside track, his article doesn't explain what will be done about freedom of movement. The EU have consistently made it clear that the four freedoms are indivisible and that Britain can't be in the single market without freedom of movement. So how is that going to be reconciled?
We are not going to be in the single market, just have some regulatory alignment with it to avoid a hard Brexit in Ireland.
In any case we are owed some concessions on freedom of movement after Blair refused to take the transition controls most EU nations took from 2004 to 2011 on free movement from the new accession nations
It will indeed be exactly what I predicted about 3 days after the referendum. We will end up staying inside “versions” of the CU and SM but they will be called something else to save face. Classic eurofudge.
Where we go from there is the moot point.
That's what I predicted too.
In fact I took part in a debate before the referendum and made the point that even if Leave won, it would end up as BINO as the least worst solution. This would suck the air out of British politics for years to the detriment of more pressing problems such as housing and health.
As I have said repeatedly we wont end up leaving the EU at all.
If this is BINO then that doesn't count for my prediction. But BINO will probably bring May's government down and then who knows; 2nd ref etc etc.
I am still (very slimly) on course...
May's allowed Brexit to self-destruct pretty skillfully. Now we're at the stage where erstwhile Leavers will start saying there's no point and we'll end up having a second referendum which will settle the issue.
I would say though that a 2nd referendum takes us into very dangerous territory as far as division in the country is concerned.
Other countries manage to hold second referendums without too many problems. We've all been on a learning curve over the past 2 years and it's only Conservative voters holding up the "right to Leave" side at the moment. If figures like Boris and Gove switch sides and adopt a more sober tone it will allow people space to reconsider.
Why on earth is she going to hold a second referendum? Why?
She’ll be frog marched out of No 10 pronto by the Tory party. They don’t want another round, neither do their voters by and large I’d assume, and really as long as they can muster votes of confidence in the HoC that’s that.
She may be forced to by parliament.
That’s the only route. But it’s a stretch even for the Tory revels because it would rip the party apart, and the country, and they know it. PM Corbyn would result very likely and that ironically may be just the right amount of glue needed for them.
The Tory party would be gutted of its activist and councillor base if it reneged on Brexit.
The Tory party wouldn't be reneging on Brexit - it would have delivered a workable Brexit deal to the people, and it would be up to the people to decide.
The Tory party is more than just the governing wing of UKIP.
All the electoral logic and all the civil service momentum is with leaving. Yet tonight it seems like RemainersUtd,com on here.
I do worry sometimes that not only are some people unable to come to terms with their view of the country losing, but that they're unable to understand the county AT ALL.
On the Royal Wedding, I'm on the indifferent side, but it must be a boost for tourism, if only from the extra Americans. For that reason, good on them.
Easy enough to avoid the telly for one day with such good weather. A sacrifice for the good of the country. Mrs Dent-Coady just sounds unnecessarily nasty.
It was very smart merchandising salary for the Royal Family to recruit an American in the lineup. Like Man Utd and Park
As I have said repeatedly we wont end up leaving the EU at all.
If this is BINO then that doesn't count for my prediction. But BINO will probably bring May's government down and then who knows; 2nd ref etc etc.
I am still (very slimly) on course...
May's allowed Brexit to self-destruct pretty skillfully. Now we're at the stage where erstwhile Leavers will start saying there's no point and we'll end up having a second referendum which will settle the issue.
I would say though that a 2nd referendum takes us into very dangerous territory as far as division in the country is concerned.
Other countries manage to hold second referendums without too many problems. We've all been on a learning curve over the past 2 years and it's only Conservative voters holding up the "right to Leave" side at the moment. If figures like Boris and Gove switch sides and adopt a more sober tone it will allow people space to reconsider.
Why on earth is she going to hold a second referendum? Why?
She’ll be frog marched out of No 10 pronto by the Tory party. They don’t want another round, neither do their voters by and large I’d assume, and really as long as they can muster votes of confidence in the HoC that’s that.
She may be forced to by parliament.
That’s the only route. But it’s a stretch even for the Tory revels because it would rip the party apart, and the country, and they know it. PM Corbyn would result very likely and that ironically may be just the right amount of glue needed for them.
The Tory party would be gutted of its activist and councillor base if it reneged on Brexit.
The Tory party wouldn't be reneging on Brexit - it would have delivered a workable Brexit deal to the people, and it would be up to the people to decide.
The Tory party is more than just the governing wing of UKIP.
Funny we didn’t get referendums on say Maastricht or Lisbon isn’t it? Wonder why Remainers are zealous converts to the cause now? Not one peep of a referendum on the subject in 41 long years and suddenly they want two to come along like busses all at once. Amazing isn’t it?
One thing I think remainers who want a second referendum haven't taken into account is a second leave victory.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
As an example of that relishing the opportunity.
I didn't campaign last time. If we were forced into a second referendum, such would be my ire that I'd take 3 months off work, I'd offer my business address as a local HQ, and donate 10x my annual Tory party donation to the Yes Actually Leave Now campaign.
One thing I think remainers who want a second referendum haven't taken into account is a second leave victory.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
As long as Leavers take the position of "It is flawed but vote Leave again as the first step for a real Brexit" it would win. The danger is people like Farage calling for Remain votes to get his relevance and MEP salary back.
One thing I think remainers who want a second referendum haven't taken into account is a second leave victory.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
As long as Leavers take the position of "It is flawed but vote Leave again as the first step for a real Brexit" it would win. The danger is people like Farage calling for Remain votes to get his relevance and MEP salary back.
I keep thinking of Michael Collins. Get out, it may be imperfect, but get out. Time is then on your side to wedge out step by step more completely.
I do worry sometimes that not only are some people unable to come to terms with their view of the country losing, but that they're unable to understand the county AT ALL.
Almost a fair comment. Except I would add that neither side of the debate understands the thinking behind the values of the other side.
Actually I see my polite lack of interest is generally shared - two thirds of the public aren't interested in the wedding (with little difference between the parties) and dislike it getting public funding, though they like the Queen and would not favour abolishing the monarchy (though only 30% feel strongly).
The wedding is not getting public funding, only the security which would be the same for any big event such as the wedding of the son or daughter or grandchild of a president
LOL , we get to pay for over 5000 police and assorted thousands other lackeys. If only we could muster that amount of police catching criminals. PS: Given their vast fortunes have been robbed from the public we are paying for the whole sh*tfest. Given they are all unemployed they could not pay anything towards it without the public cash.
I love the Royal Family for the reasoned comments that they generate like those above. I mean if we didn't have a queen we'd have a president - that would be great wouldn't it?
Yes , democratic , rather than born to be head of state.
One thing I think remainers who want a second referendum haven't taken into account is a second leave victory.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
As long as Leavers take the position of "It is flawed but vote Leave again as the first step for a real Brexit" it would win. The danger is people like Farage calling for Remain votes to get his relevance and MEP salary back.
I keep thinking of Michael Collins. Get out, it may be imperfect, but get out. Time is then on your side to wedge out step by step more completely.
I agree. 50% of what you want is better than none of it.
One thing I think remainers who want a second referendum haven't taken into account is a second leave victory.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
As an example of that relishing the opportunity.
I didn't campaign last time. If we were forced into a second referendum, such would be my ire that I'd take 3 months off work, I'd offer my business address as a local HQ, and donate 10x my annual Tory party donation to the Yes Actually Leave Now campaign.
I think a lot of Leavers who voted last time but don't usually vote will think "They ignore us anyway so what's the f'ing point!" and stay at home.
As I have said repeatedly we wont end up leaving the EU at all.
If this is BINO then that doesn't count for my prediction. But BINO will probably bring May's government down and then who knows; 2nd ref etc etc.
I am still (very slimly) on course...
May's allowed Brexit to self-destruct pretty skillfully. Now we're at the stage where erstwhile Leavers will start saying there's no point and we'll end up having a second referendum which will settle the issue.
I would say though that a 2nd referendum takes us into very dangerous territory as far as division in the country is concerned.
Other countries manage to hold second referendums without too many problems. We've all been on a learning curve over the past 2 years and it's only Conservative voters holding up the "right to Leave" side at the moment. If figures like Boris and Gove switch sides and adopt a more sober tone it will allow people space to reconsider.
If we have a second referendum then Leave will get a bigger win. People really dislike being told they got it wrong and have to try again.
I'd prefer that Megan Markle somehow decided for us that we shouldn't leave the EU rather than a second referendum did. I'm not a fan of royalty particularly, I'm very much not a fan of referendums, but I'm more than anything not a fan of having the same referendum twice. (Whilst the first hasn't been acted upon)
One thing I think remainers who want a second referendum haven't taken into account is a second leave victory.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
As an example of that relishing the opportunity.
I didn't campaign last time. If we were forced into a second referendum, such would be my ire that I'd take 3 months off work, I'd offer my business address as a local HQ, and donate 10x my annual Tory party donation to the Yes Actually Leave Now campaign.
I think a lot of Leavers who voted last time but don't usually vote will think "They ignore us anyway so what's the f'ing point!" and stay at home.
Because underestimating the opposition worked so well last time, you choose to do it again?
One thing I think remainers who want a second referendum haven't taken into account is a second leave victory.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
As an example of that relishing the opportunity.
I didn't campaign last time. If we were forced into a second referendum, such would be my ire that I'd take 3 months off work, I'd offer my business address as a local HQ, and donate 10x my annual Tory party donation to the Yes Actually Leave Now campaign.
I think a lot of Leavers who voted last time but don't usually vote will think "They ignore us anyway so what's the f'ing point!" and stay at home.
Because underestimating the opposition worked so well last time, you choose to do it again?
Brave, Minister....
I'm putting myself in their shoes. I'm not talking about the band of enthusiastic Brexiteers such as yourself. I'm talking about the sizeable number who voted to "send a message".
One thing I think remainers who want a second referendum haven't taken into account is a second leave victory.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
As long as Leavers take the position of "It is flawed but vote Leave again as the first step for a real Brexit" it would win. The danger is people like Farage calling for Remain votes to get his relevance and MEP salary back.
I keep thinking of Michael Collins. Get out, it may be imperfect, but get out. Time is then on your side to wedge out step by step more completely.
I agree. 50% of what you want is better than none of it.
Have you by chance ever operated under the pseudonym of Nicholas William Peter Clegg, of Robinson College, Cambridge?
One thing I think remainers who want a second referendum haven't taken into account is a second leave victory.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
As an example of that relishing the opportunity.
I didn't campaign last time. If we were forced into a second referendum, such would be my ire that I'd take 3 months off work, I'd offer my business address as a local HQ, and donate 10x my annual Tory party donation to the Yes Actually Leave Now campaign.
I think a lot of Leavers who voted last time but don't usually vote will think "They ignore us anyway so what's the f'ing point!" and stay at home.
I think there's a real danger that you may be right. It will mean that democracy is dead, for those people at least. If they want anything to change, ever, it will be no good trying the ballot box route. That has failed them, proven beyond all doubt.
What other routes does that open up? I find that frightening.
My hope would be that such people realise that their vote has the power to change things and that being asked to vote again proves the power of their vote.
Monarchism is essentially a form of Socialism! "What are you on about, Sunil?" I hear you cry!
Well, consider:
1) Monarchs have a job for life, which is quintessentially Socialist!
2) The hereditary principle, a feature of Socialist dynasties around the world, such as the Kennedys in the USA, Nehru-Gandhis in India, and the Kims in North Korea!
3) Pomp and circumstance - Trooping the Colour is after all merely a toned down version of all those North Korean and (former) Soviet military parades!
So, my fellow PBers, I put it to you that Monarchism = Socialism!
Black is essentially White! "What are you on about, Ben?" I hear you cry!
Well, consider:
1) Black is an extreme form of grey; so is White!
2) Black and White a both signifiers of plain truth, as in "it's there in black and white"!
3) Black is often used as a surname; so is White!
So, my fellow PBers, I put it to you that Black = White!
Be careful when you next encounter a zebra crossing.....
Why are Leavers so anti a referendum on the deal? They seem confident of winning.
Mortimer is offering to take 3 months off to campaign, to which I say - good! Democracy in action.
And I keep saying that I think Brexit would win. It would settle the argument for a generation.
I don’t want Brexit to be the only thing this country thinks and talks about for the next 10 years.
1) Democracy: We've already had a referendum where the Govt. told the people that they would follow their wishes. They've yet to follow their wishes and leave the EU.
2) Practicality: What does a good result look like? If it is Yes Actually Leave, the Remainers won't be happy. If it is Actually don't Leave, the Brexiteers won't be happy.
3, for about the thousandth time on here, and perhaps most importantly) Politics: It encourages the EU to give us a bad deal, and Remainers to conspire with the EU on this.
One thing I think remainers who want a second referendum haven't taken into account is a second leave victory.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
As an example of that relishing the opportunity.
I didn't campaign last time. If we were forced into a second referendum, such would be my ire that I'd take 3 months off work, I'd offer my business address as a local HQ, and donate 10x my annual Tory party donation to the Yes Actually Leave Now campaign.
I think a lot of Leavers who voted last time but don't usually vote will think "They ignore us anyway so what's the f'ing point!" and stay at home.
Because underestimating the opposition worked so well last time, you choose to do it again?
Brave, Minister....
I'm putting myself in their shoes. I'm not talking about the band of enthusiastic Brexiteers such as yourself. I'm talking about the sizeable number who voted to "send a message".
Have you considered that you don't really know their shoes?
Why are Leavers so anti a referendum on the deal? They seem confident of winning.
Mortimer is offering to take 3 months off to campaign, to which I say - good! Democracy in action.
And I keep saying that I think Brexit would win. It would settle the argument for a generation.
I don’t want Brexit to be the only thing this country thinks and talks about for the next 10 years.
To be fair you should suggest 'Lets have a referendum on whether there should be a second referendum on Brexit.'
If you want to propose such a thing then I think it's fair enough, but as I said earlier in the thread I think that Referendums are not the way to go.
'Let's just vote again because we didn't like the result' is just a catastrophe.
That’s not my argument. My argument is the the referendum last time was based on delusions. Both sides are now older and wider, and we actually have a substantive option to consider - not the nonsense conjured up by Osborne and Johnson respectively.
So let’s do it. Let’s have a referendum on the deal.
“Mr. Max, one has the sneaking suspicion it's mostly women who are into the wedding, because they're more into weddings generally. Be interesting to get some polling on that.”
You don’t need polling. Women are sensible people (someone has to be!) and we understand that it is love, marriage and families which are the important things in life. Not silly nonsense like Brexit.
On the Royal Wedding, I'm on the indifferent side, but it must be a boost for tourism, if only from the extra Americans. For that reason, good on them.
Easy enough to avoid the telly for one day with such good weather. A sacrifice for the good of the country. Mrs Dent-Coady just sounds unnecessarily nasty.
It was very smart merchandising salary for the Royal Family to recruit an American in the lineup. Like Man Utd and Park
Not just an American, an extremely beautiful, intelligent, half-black American actress with a successful career behind her. No wonder it has confused so many lefties.
Meanwhile the actual heir to the throne has married the beautiful grand daughter - of a coaliminer.
The Royal Family is a lesson to us all in meritocracy and reinvention, even as politics becomes evermore dynastic and elitist, from the Clintons and Bushes to the Kinnocks and Blairs.
The irony is beyond piquant.
"The Royal Family is a lesson to us all in meritocracy..."
Brilliant! Satire at its very best - nice one Sean!
No but... When they made those predictions nobody in their right mind could have foreseen Theresa May would finish up leading the negotiations...
We thought we couldn't find a worse negotiator than Cameron... And then we did...
David Davis had his chance. They all did. And the inevitable happened.
Theresa May (remain) teamed up with Ollie Robbins (remain ultra) and Hammond (remain ultra) to force Davis out of the scene...
I don't know why David Davis didn't walk. In fact I don't know why all the Brexiteers don't walk and bring down the government.
Because they had to choose between fact and fantasy? As per the tweet upthread, NOTHING predicted or claimed by the Brexit gang has come true.
And it’s not just the ones in Cabinet. There’s a whole gang of headbangers on the backbenchers. They’ll suck it up too, because a “clean” Brexit doesn’t actually exist - not without trashing the economy.
No but... When they made those predictions nobody in their right mind could have foreseen Theresa May would finish up leading the negotiations...
We thought we couldn't find a worse negotiator than Cameron... And then we did...
David Davis had his chance. They all did. And the inevitable happened.
Theresa May (remain) teamed up with Ollie Robbins (remain ultra) and Hammond (remain ultra) to force Davis out of the scene...
I don't know why David Davis didn't walk. In fact I don't know why all the Brexiteers don't walk and bring down the government.
Because they had to choose between fact and fantasy? As per the tweet upthread, NOTHING predicted or claimed by the Brexit gang has come true.
Because Theresa May and Remain have been calling the shots and have made sure those predictions didn't or couldn't come true...
The establishment have sabotaged Brexit from within... But we'll have our revenge on the establishment when we vote en-masse for Corbyn who will then take a wrecking ball to the whole rotten edifice.
No but... When they made those predictions nobody in their right mind could have foreseen Theresa May would finish up leading the negotiations...
We thought we couldn't find a worse negotiator than Cameron... And then we did...
David Davis had his chance. They all did. And the inevitable happened.
Theresa May (remain) teamed up with Ollie Robbins (remain ultra) and Hammond (remain ultra) to force Davis out of the scene...
I don't know why David Davis didn't walk. In fact I don't know why all the Brexiteers don't walk and bring down the government.
Because they had to choose between fact and fantasy? As per the tweet upthread, NOTHING predicted or claimed by the Brexit gang has come true.
Because Theresa May and Remain have been calling the shots and have made sure those predictions didn't or couldn't come true...
The establishment have sabotaged Brexit from within... But we'll have our revenge on the establishment when we vote en-masse for Corbyn who will then take a wrecking ball to the whole rotten edifice.
What - Theresa “couldn’t manage her way out of a paper bag” May?
No but... When they made those predictions nobody in their right mind could have foreseen Theresa May would finish up leading the negotiations...
We thought we couldn't find a worse negotiator than Cameron... And then we did...
David Davis had his chance. They all did. And the inevitable happened.
Theresa May (remain) teamed up with Ollie Robbins (remain ultra) and Hammond (remain ultra) to force Davis out of the scene...
I don't know why David Davis didn't walk. In fact I don't know why all the Brexiteers don't walk and bring down the government.
Because they had to choose between fact and fantasy? As per the tweet upthread, NOTHING predicted or claimed by the Brexit gang has come true.
Because Theresa May and Remain have been calling the shots and have made sure those predictions didn't or couldn't come true...
The establishment have sabotaged Brexit from within... But we'll have our revenge on the establishment when we vote en-masse for Corbyn who will then take a wrecking ball to the whole rotten edifice.
No but... When they made those predictions nobody in their right mind could have foreseen Theresa May would finish up leading the negotiations...
We thought we couldn't find a worse negotiator than Cameron... And then we did...
David Davis had his chance. They all did. And the inevitable happened.
Theresa May (remain) teamed up with Ollie Robbins (remain ultra) and Hammond (remain ultra) to force Davis out of the scene...
I don't know why David Davis didn't walk. In fact I don't know why all the Brexiteers don't walk and bring down the government.
Because they had to choose between fact and fantasy? As per the tweet upthread, NOTHING predicted or claimed by the Brexit gang has come true.
Because Theresa May and Remain have been calling the shots and have made sure those predictions didn't or couldn't come true...
The establishment have sabotaged Brexit from within... But we'll have our revenge on the establishment when we vote en-masse for Corbyn who will then take a wrecking ball to the whole rotten edifice.
Didn't you used to be a Conservative, GIN?
My voting record:
1997 - Labour (Who didn't? )
2001 - (Didn't vote - Could see Blair was going power mad and Con had William Hague... Enough said))
2005 - Lib-Dem (Iraq)
2010 - Con (Get Brown Out)
2015 - Con (Keep Lab out)
2017 - Con (I believed Theresa...)
2022 - Lab ???? (Revenge on Con for ignoring my instructions in the referendum)
One thing I think remainers who want a second referendum haven't taken into account is a second leave victory.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
As an example of that relishing the opportunity.
I didn't campaign last time. If we were forced into a second referendum, such would be my ire that I'd take 3 months off work, I'd offer my business address as a local HQ, and donate 10x my annual Tory party donation to the Yes Actually Leave Now campaign.
I think a lot of Leavers who voted last time but don't usually vote will think "They ignore us anyway so what's the f'ing point!" and stay at home.
I think there's a real danger that you may be right. It will mean that democracy is dead, for those people at least. If they want anything to change, ever, it will be no good trying the ballot box route. That has failed them, proven beyond all doubt.
What other routes does that open up? I find that frightening.
My hope would be that such people realise that their vote has the power to change things and that being asked to vote again proves the power of their vote.
I think they'll just revert to not voting. What's the point. No other consequence. They'll get on with lives.
One thing I think remainers who want a second referendum haven't taken into account is a second leave victory.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
As long as Leavers take the position of "It is flawed but vote Leave again as the first step for a real Brexit" it would win. The danger is people like Farage calling for Remain votes to get his relevance and MEP salary back.
I keep thinking of Michael Collins. Get out, it may be imperfect, but get out. Time is then on your side to wedge out step by step more completely.
I agree. 50% of what you want is better than none of it.
Have you by chance ever operated under the pseudonym of Nicholas William Peter Clegg, of Robinson College, Cambridge?
Why are Leavers so anti a referendum on the deal? They seem confident of winning.
Mortimer is offering to take 3 months off to campaign, to which I say - good! Democracy in action.
And I keep saying that I think Brexit would win. It would settle the argument for a generation.
I don’t want Brexit to be the only thing this country thinks and talks about for the next 10 years.
To be fair you should suggest 'Lets have a referendum on whether there should be a second referendum on Brexit.'
If you want to propose such a thing then I think it's fair enough, but as I said earlier in the thread I think that Referendums are not the way to go.
'Let's just vote again because we didn't like the result' is just a catastrophe.
That’s not my argument. My argument is the the referendum last time was based on delusions. Both sides are now older and wider, and we actually have a substantive option to consider - not the nonsense conjured up by Osborne and Johnson respectively.
So let’s do it. Let’s have a referendum on the deal.
I do like 'older and wider' - even though it's a mistype
Perhaps you're right, and perhaps the bulk of the referendum votes were based on delusions. Why should the next referendum be otherwise?
There really is no place to go if you start re-running votes. Perhaps we should re-run GE2017. Labour then would win?! I think that it's probably true. But are you going to re-run it again when the Tories point out that GE2017mk2 - if our vote paid attention then we'd win, and sure enough they do.
The tradition is that the Speaker is dragged to the chair. Bercow appears determined to reverse the procedure by refusing to go until he is dragged FROM the chair.
One thing I think remainers who want a second referendum haven't taken into account is a second leave victory.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
As an example of that relishing the opportunity.
I didn't campaign last time. If we were forced into a second referendum, such would be my ire that I'd take 3 months off work, I'd offer my business address as a local HQ, and donate 10x my annual Tory party donation to the Yes Actually Leave Now campaign.
I think a lot of Leavers who voted last time but don't usually vote will think "They ignore us anyway so what's the f'ing point!" and stay at home.
I think there's a real danger that you may be right. It will mean that democracy is dead, for those people at least. If they want anything to change, ever, it will be no good trying the ballot box route. That has failed them, proven beyond all doubt.
What other routes does that open up? I find that frightening.
My hope would be that such people realise that their vote has the power to change things and that being asked to vote again proves the power of their vote.
I think they'll just revert to not voting. What's the point. No other consequence. They'll get on with lives.
A lot will vote for Corbyn in the knowledge he'll destroy the establishment who have thwarted them, IMO.
Incidentally I am in Sardinia as I write this (and rather pleasant it is). Worth noting that Italy has just elected a properly eurosceptic Coalition.
And I mean proper. Not some milksop whingey fake sceptic Berlusconi bullshit. These guys are actively anti-Brussels. They hate the austerity imposed by Berlin and the euro.
Italy is not happy with the EU.
The idea we face some united European monolith is nonsense.
I'd like to see them create a parallel currency to the Euro. That's what the Greeks should have done.
No but... When they made those predictions nobody in their right mind could have foreseen Theresa May would finish up leading the negotiations...
We thought we couldn't find a worse negotiator than Cameron... And then we did...
David Davis had his chance. They all did. And the inevitable happened.
Theresa May (remain) teamed up with Ollie Robbins (remain ultra) and Hammond (remain ultra) to force Davis out of the scene...
I don't know why David Davis didn't walk. In fact I don't know why all the Brexiteers don't walk and bring down the government.
Because they had to choose between fact and fantasy? As per the tweet upthread, NOTHING predicted or claimed by the Brexit gang has come true.
Because Theresa May and Remain have been calling the shots and have made sure those predictions didn't or couldn't come true...
The establishment have sabotaged Brexit from within... But we'll have our revenge on the establishment when we vote en-masse for Corbyn who will then take a wrecking ball to the whole rotten edifice.
Didn't you used to be a Conservative, GIN?
My voting record:
1997 - Labour (Who didn't? )
2001 - (Didn't vote - Could see Blair was going power mad and Con had William Hague... Enough said))
2005 - Lib-Dem (Iraq)
2010 - Con (Get Brown Out)
2015 - Con (Keep Lab out)
2017 - Con (I believed Theresa...)
2022 - Lab ???? (Revenge on Con for ignoring my instructions in the referendum)
Fair enough - a proper swinger! I'll update my PB Poster database accordingly
“Mr. Max, one has the sneaking suspicion it's mostly women who are into the wedding, because they're more into weddings generally. Be interesting to get some polling on that.”
You don’t need polling. Women are sensible people (someone has to be!) and we understand that it is love, marriage and families which are the important things in life. Not silly nonsense like Brexit.
Although 54% of women say they aren't interested in the wedding (though I grant you that 79% of men say the same):
The findings are consistent across all age groups, polical preferences and regions. Some people like this sort of thing, most don't really care. Probably true of most things...
Why are Leavers so anti a referendum on the deal? They seem confident of winning.
Mortimer is offering to take 3 months off to campaign, to which I say - good! Democracy in action.
And I keep saying that I think Brexit would win. It would settle the argument for a generation.
I don’t want Brexit to be the only thing this country thinks and talks about for the next 10 years.
To be fair you should suggest 'Lets have a referendum on whether there should be a second referendum on Brexit.'
If you want to propose such a thing then I think it's fair enough, but as I said earlier in the thread I think that Referendums are not the way to go.
'Let's just vote again because we didn't like the result' is just a catastrophe.
That’s not my argument. My argument is the the referendum last time was based on delusions. Both sides are now older and wider, and we actually have a substantive option to consider - not the nonsense conjured up by Osborne and Johnson respectively.
So let’s do it. Let’s have a referendum on the deal.
I do like 'older and wider' - even though it's a mistype
Perhaps you're right, and perhaps the bulk of the referendum votes were based on delusions. Why should the next referendum be otherwise?
There really is no place to go if you start re-running votes. Perhaps we should re-run GE2017. Labour then would win?! I think that it's probably true. But are you going to re-run it again when the Tories point out that GE2017mk2 - if our vote paid attention then we'd win, and sure enough they do.
We’ll we “re-run” elections every 5 years. But the point is that it’s not a re-run. We will have a concrete deal on the table.
One thing I think remainers who want a second referendum haven't taken into account is a second leave victory.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
As an example of that relishing the opportunity.
I didn't campaign last time. If we were forced into a second referendum, such would be my ire that I'd take 3 months off work, I'd offer my business address as a local HQ, and donate 10x my annual Tory party donation to the Yes Actually Leave Now campaign.
I think a lot of Leavers who voted last time but don't usually vote will think "They ignore us anyway so what's the f'ing point!" and stay at home.
I think there's a real danger that you may be right. It will mean that democracy is dead, for those people at least. If they want anything to change, ever, it will be no good trying the ballot box route. That has failed them, proven beyond all doubt.
What other routes does that open up? I find that frightening.
My hope would be that such people realise that their vote has the power to change things and that being asked to vote again proves the power of their vote.
I think they'll just revert to not voting. What's the point. No other consequence. They'll get on with lives.
A way of disenfranchising by stealth? De-motivate the potential voters who've shown themselves not of your opinion?
I gather some firms indulge in de-training unwanted staff so that they get fed up & resign, without the firm having to pay redundancy or get involved in tribunals.
One thing I think remainers who want a second referendum haven't taken into account is a second leave victory.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
As long as Leavers take the position of "It is flawed but vote Leave again as the first step for a real Brexit" it would win. The danger is people like Farage calling for Remain votes to get his relevance and MEP salary back.
I keep thinking of Michael Collins. Get out, it may be imperfect, but get out. Time is then on your side to wedge out step by step more completely.
I agree. 50% of what you want is better than none of it.
Have you by chance ever operated under the pseudonym of Nicholas William Peter Clegg, of Robinson College, Cambridge?
Never heard of him.
I congratulate you on having made precisely the right response.
One thing I think remainers who want a second referendum haven't taken into account is a second leave victory.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
As an example of that relishing the opportunity.
I didn't campaign last time. If we were forced into a second referendum, such would be my ire that I'd take 3 months off work, I'd offer my business address as a local HQ, and donate 10x my annual Tory party donation to the Yes Actually Leave Now campaign.
I think a lot of Leavers who voted last time but don't usually vote will think "They ignore us anyway so what's the f'ing point!" and stay at home.
I think there's a real danger that you may be right. It will mean that democracy is dead, for those people at least. If they want anything to change, ever, it will be no good trying the ballot box route. That has failed them, proven beyond all doubt.
What other routes does that open up? I find that frightening.
My hope would be that such people realise that their vote has the power to change things and that being asked to vote again proves the power of their vote.
I think they'll just revert to not voting. What's the point. No other consequence. They'll get on with lives.
A lot will vote for Corbyn in the knowledge he'll destroy the establishment who have thwarted them, IMO.
Incidentally I am in Sardinia as I write this (and rather pleasant it is). Worth noting that Italy has just elected a properly eurosceptic Coalition.
And I mean proper. Not some milksop whingey fake sceptic Berlusconi bullshit. These guys are actively anti-Brussels. They hate the austerity imposed by Berlin and the euro.
Italy is not happy with the EU.
The idea we face some united European monolith is nonsense.
I'd like to see them create a parallel currency to the Euro. That's what the Greeks should have done.
The trouble is that their debt is denominated in Euros. But yes, they ought to somehow untangle themselves from the Eurozone.
“Mr. Max, one has the sneaking suspicion it's mostly women who are into the wedding, because they're more into weddings generally. Be interesting to get some polling on that.”
You don’t need polling. Women are sensible people (someone has to be!) and we understand that it is love, marriage and families which are the important things in life. Not silly nonsense like Brexit.
Although 54% of women say they aren't interested in the wedding (though I grant you that 79% of men say the same):
The findings are consistent across all age groups, polical preferences and regions. Some people like this sort of thing, most don't really care. Probably true of most things...
The percentage "uninterested" seems to be larger this time despite wall to wall coverage across all channels.
Relative to other such weddings, this one appears to me to be more "interesting".
Actually I see my polite lack of interest is generally shared - two thirds of the public aren't interested in the wedding (with little difference between the parties) and dislike it getting public funding, though they like the Queen and would not favour abolishing the monarchy (though only 30% feel strongly).
IMO it's annoying that broadcasters like Channel 4 News and the BBC, who are usually relatively sceptical about traditional institutions like the monarchy, seem to suddenly adopt a obsessive interest in the royal family whenever a wedding is about to take place. You would expect the Daily Mail and Express to be like that but not the BBC.
Oh for God’s sake! Chill. It’s once in a blue moon. The last one was 7 years ago. Why not? It’s fun to watch and the pageantry is something we’re actually good at.
We have to put up with endless bloody football on the tele or snooker or other dull, incomprehensible sports we’re crap at. More people enjoy gardening than almost any other activity and yet we have to have the only TV programme dedicated to it taken off the schedules to accommodate some bloody minority sport.
If you’re not interested, go for a walk. The TV schedules will be full of dreary garbage suitable for misanthropes again soon enough........
Incidentally I am in Sardinia as I write this (and rather pleasant it is). Worth noting that Italy has just elected a properly eurosceptic Coalition.
And I mean proper. Not some milksop whingey fake sceptic Berlusconi bullshit. These guys are actively anti-Brussels. They hate the austerity imposed by Berlin and the euro.
Italy is not happy with the EU.
The idea we face some united European monolith is nonsense.
I'd like to see them create a parallel currency to the Euro. That's what the Greeks should have done.
The trouble is that their debt is denominated in Euros. But yes, they ought to somehow untangle themselves from the Eurozone.
The strong countries should create the parallel currency, and the debt would be domimated in the weak one.
But they won't do it because it would be a backwards step for European integration and that comes before all else.
Why are Leavers so anti a referendum on the deal? They seem confident of winning.
Mortimer is offering to take 3 months off to campaign, to which I say - good! Democracy in action.
And I keep saying that I think Brexit would win. It would settle the argument for a generation.
I don’t want Brexit to be the only thing this country thinks and talks about for the next 10 years.
To be fair you should suggest 'Lets have a referendum on whether there should be a second referendum on Brexit.'
If you want to propose such a thing then I think it's fair enough, but as I said earlier in the thread I think that Referendums are not the way to go.
'Let's just vote again because we didn't like the result' is just a catastrophe.
That’s not my argument. My argument is the the referendum last time was based on delusions. Both sides are now older and wider, and we actually have a substantive option to consider - not the nonsense conjured up by Os and Jorespectively.
So let’s do it. Let’s have a referendum on the deal.
I do like 'older and wider' - even though it's a mistype
Perhaps you're right, and perhaps the bulk of the referendum votes were based on delusions. Why should the next referendum be otherwise?
There really is no place to go if you start re-running votes. Perhaps we should re-run GE2017. Labour then would win?! I think that it's probably true. But are you going to re-run it again when the Tories point out that GE2017mk2 - if our vote paid attention then we'd win, and sure enough they do.
We’ll we “re-run” elections every 5 years. But the point is that it’s not a re-run. We will have a concrete deal on the table.
Let the people have their say.
A GE delivers a change in, for example, the finger on the Nuclear button within 24hrs. I wouldn't advocate having a daily General Election, but I can't find a reason to argue against it. Some mechanism (The Referendum) that hangs about like a bad smell without having any ability to actually deliver is simply a horror story. Compounding the horror is clearly unwise.
I have every sympathy with Remainers, I did finish up voting leave, but anything I can be bothered to explain would have suggested remain, and all my friends were and are remainers. However, I voted leave on purely economic grounds.
Had 'Leave' lost then the 'lets vote again' stuff really would have been derided. Farage pontificating about 'they didn't understand what the status quo meant'!?
Once the ghastly process of delivering on what people have already said is complete, then we can see what they might want to say next. Any interruption has to be a deliberate interruption of process rather than destination.
No but... When they made those predictions nobody in their right mind could have foreseen Theresa May would finish up leading the negotiations...
We thought we couldn't find a worse negotiator than Cameron... And then we did...
David Davis had his chance. They all did. And the inevitable happened.
Theresa May (remain) teamed up with Ollie Robbins (remain ultra) and Hammond (remain ultra) to force Davis out of the scene...
I don't know why David Davis didn't walk. In fact I don't know why all the Brexiteers don't walk and bring down the government.
Because they had to choose between fact and fantasy? As per the tweet upthread, NOTHING predicted or claimed by the Brexit gang has come true.
Because Theresa May and Remain have been calling the shots and have made sure those predictions didn't or couldn't come true...
The establishment have sabotaged Brexit from within... But we'll have our revenge on the establishment when we vote en-masse for Corbyn who will then take a wrecking ball to the whole rotten edifice.
Didn't you used to be a Conservative, GIN?
My voting record:
1997 - Labour (Who didn't? )
2001 - (Didn't vote - Could see Blair was going power mad and Con had William Hague... Enough said))
2005 - Lib-Dem (Iraq)
2010 - Con (Get Brown Out)
2015 - Con (Keep Lab out)
2017 - Con (I believed Theresa...)
2022 - Lab ???? (Revenge on Con for ignoring my instructions in the referendum)
Fair enough - a proper swinger! I'll update my PB Poster database accordingly
“Mr. Max, one has the sneaking suspicion it's mostly women who are into the wedding, because they're more into weddings generally. Be interesting to get some polling on that.”
You don’t need polling. Women are sensible people (someone has to be!) and we understand that it is love, marriage and families which are the important things in life. Not silly nonsense like Brexit.
Although 54% of women say they aren't interested in the wedding (though I grant you that 79% of men say the same):
The findings are consistent across all age groups, polical preferences and regions. Some people like this sort of thing, most don't really care. Probably true of most things...
The percentage "uninterested" seems to be larger this time despite wall to wall coverage across all channels.
Relative to other such weddings, this one appears to me to be more "interesting".
Last time around, though, the wedding was at least of some constitutional importance. The chances of Harry or any of his offspring becoming monarch seem so remote as to allow us to treat this wedding with the good-natured polite indifference that we treat most weddings of strangers with.
Granted, maybe people aren't necessarily decide on their interest in something base don their constitutional importance.
My very minor beef with this whole palaver is that ardent royalists assume we're all interested. I'm interested in rugby. I love the 6 nations, it's the highlight of my televisual year. But I don't assume everyone else shares my interest, nor express incredulity when other's don't know which weekend England are playing Wales. I don't mind the wedding, I wish them well, I don't even mind the coverage, but I bristle very slightly when it is assumed that I will be watching and will have an opinion, apart from the vaguely that's-nice-for-them opinion that any reasonable person would have about any pair of strangers getting married.
All that said, this is a very minor grumble. If people like watching royal weddings, I really don't mind.
A way of disenfranchising by stealth? De-motivate the potential voters who've shown themselves not of your opinion?
I gather some firms indulge in de-training unwanted staff so that they get fed up & resign, without the firm having to pay redundancy or get involved in tribunals.
Horrid. It's apparently a recognised though clearly unpleasant political strategy in the US - "voter suppression" by encouraging disillusion among people who won't vote for you. I've heard that there has been some interest in it at Tory Central Office, though that's an unconfirmed rumour.
“Mr. Max, one has the sneaking suspicion it's mostly women who are into the wedding, because they're more into weddings generally. Be interesting to get some polling on that.”
You don’t need polling. Women are sensible people (someone has to be!) and we understand that it is love, marriage and families which are the important things in life. Not silly nonsense like Brexit.
Although 54% of women say they aren't interested in the wedding (though I grant you that 79% of men say the same):
The findings are consistent across all age groups, polical preferences and regions. Some people like this sort of thing, most don't really care. Probably true of most things...
The percentage "uninterested" seems to be larger this time despite wall to wall coverage across all channels.
Relative to other such weddings, this one appears to me to be more "interesting".
Last time around, though, the wedding was at least of some constitutional importance. The chances of Harry or any of his offspring becoming monarch seem so remote as to allow us to treat this wedding with the good-natured polite indifference that we treat most weddings of strangers with.
Granted, maybe people aren't necessarily decide on their interest in something base don their constitutional importance.
My very minor beef with this whole palaver is that ardent royalists assume we're all interested. I'm interested in rugby. I love the 6 nations, it's the highlight of my televisual year. But I don't assume everyone else shares my interest, nor express incredulity when other's don't know which weekend England are playing Wales. I don't mind the wedding, I wish them well, I don't even mind the coverage, but I bristle very slightly when it is assumed that I will be watching and will have an opinion, apart from the vaguely that's-nice-for-them opinion that any reasonable person would have about any pair of strangers getting married.
All that said, this is a very minor grumble. If people like watching royal weddings, I really don't mind.
Rugby=not football. That's their interest. You can't reasonably ask the Queen what her view on 'the England team' is. Should you be able to do so then the Monarchy is over.
The tradition is that the Speaker is dragged to the chair. Bercow appears determined to reverse the procedure by refusing to go until he is dragged FROM the chair.
Not sure what the fuss is about. Andrea Leadsom is a stupid woman.
The tradition is that the Speaker is dragged to the chair. Bercow appears determined to reverse the procedure by refusing to go until he is dragged FROM the chair.
Not sure what the fuss is about. Andrea Leadsom is a stupid woman.
The tradition is that the Speaker is dragged to the chair. Bercow appears determined to reverse the procedure by refusing to go until he is dragged FROM the chair.
Not sure what the fuss is about. Andrea Leadsom is a stupid woman.
Would you be so relaxed if he called Emily Thornberry a "stupid woman" ?
Presumably you have no problem with the Speaker throwing out personal abuse from the Speakers chair to any MP whenever he feels like it?
The tradition is that the Speaker is dragged to the chair. Bercow appears determined to reverse the procedure by refusing to go until he is dragged FROM the chair.
Not sure what the fuss is about. Andrea Leadsom is a stupid woman.
Good point. Speaker tells the truth, shock-horror!
The tradition is that the Speaker is dragged to the chair. Bercow appears determined to reverse the procedure by refusing to go until he is dragged FROM the chair.
Not sure what the fuss is about. Andrea Leadsom is a stupid woman.
Good point. Speaker tells the truth, shock-horror!
Maybe he should tell Diane Abbott she's as thick as two short planks next time she's at the Dispatch box???
The tradition is that the Speaker is dragged to the chair. Bercow appears determined to reverse the procedure by refusing to go until he is dragged FROM the chair.
Not sure what the fuss is about. Andrea Leadsom is a stupid woman.
Good point. Speaker tells the truth, shock-horror!
It doesn't matter that it's the truth. The role of speaker is supposed to be impartial.
A way of disenfranchising by stealth? De-motivate the potential voters who've shown themselves not of your opinion?
I gather some firms indulge in de-training unwanted staff so that they get fed up & resign, without the firm having to pay redundancy or get involved in tribunals.
Horrid. It's apparently a recognised though clearly unpleasant political strategy in the US - "voter suppression" by encouraging disillusion among people who won't vote for you. I've heard that there has been some interest in it at Tory Central Office, though that's an unconfirmed rumour.
When it comes to Tory HQ, nothing would surprise me. No wonder Theresa May called it the nasty party! Politics as John Major once said is "a rough trade" but the depths of degradation it currently plumbs is depressing.
The tradition is that the Speaker is dragged to the chair. Bercow appears determined to reverse the procedure by refusing to go until he is dragged FROM the chair.
Not sure what the fuss is about. Andrea Leadsom is a stupid woman.
Would you be so relaxed if he called Emily Thornberry a "stupid woman" ?
Presumably you have no problem with the Speaker throwing out personal abuse from the Speakers chair to any MP whenever he feels like it?
Could there be any possibility of sponsorship in this?
A clear statement of fact by a clear voice, for example 'Ms Thornberry, you're a stupid woman', perhaps conducted once every 24hrs, and twice on sundays, would I feel go some way to me making peace with the universe.
Actually I see my polite lack of interest is generally shared - two thirds of the public aren't interested in the wedding (with little difference between the parties) and dislike it getting public funding, though they like the Queen and would not favour abolishing the monarchy (though only 30% feel strongly).
IMO it's annoying that broadcasters like Channel 4 News and the BBC, who are usually relatively sceptical about traditional institutions like the monarchy, seem to suddenly adopt a obsessive interest in the royal family whenever a wedding is about to take place. You would expect the Daily Mail and Express to be like that but not the BBC.
Oh for God’s sake! Chill. It’s once in a blue moon. The last one was 7 years ago. Why not? It’s fun to watch and the pageantry is something we’re actually good at.
We have to put up with endless bloody football on the tele or snooker or other dull, incomprehensible sports we’re crap at. More people enjoy gardening than almost any other activity and yet we have to have the only TV programme dedicated to it taken off the schedules to accommodate some bloody minority sport.
If you’re not interested, go for a walk. The TV schedules will be full of dreary garbage suitable for misanthropes again soon enough........
I sometimes feel that anti-monarchists resent the pleasure others gain from royalty
What proportion are like that I have no idea, but when it comes to the most vocal there does seem to be an element of it. I mean, I am a monarchist and I'm not that interested in the whole business (other than having been a big fan of Suits and it really is not hard to avoid things if you are not interested, so while its fine to get somewhat annoyed, as it is indeed not a big deal, there's no need to worked up angry about it either.
The tradition is that the Speaker is dragged to the chair. Bercow appears determined to reverse the procedure by refusing to go until he is dragged FROM the chair.
Not sure what the fuss is about. Andrea Leadsom is a stupid woman.
It's unseemly for the Speaker to say so though.
He's alleged to have calld Leadsom a stupid woman under his breath; hardly a sackable offence. Smacks of another doomed attempt by the Tories to eject him following the 2015 fiasco.
The tradition is that the Speaker is dragged to the chair. Bercow appears determined to reverse the procedure by refusing to go until he is dragged FROM the chair.
Not sure what the fuss is about. Andrea Leadsom is a stupid woman.
Good point. Speaker tells the truth, shock-horror!
It doesn't matter that it's the truth. The role of speaker is supposed to be impartial.
No Speaker has backed backbenchers more than Bercow. What exactly is his crime ? He called Loathsome "stupid", right ? So you want him to lie instead ?
The tradition is that the Speaker is dragged to the chair. Bercow appears determined to reverse the procedure by refusing to go until he is dragged FROM the chair.
Not sure what the fuss is about. Andrea Leadsom is a stupid woman.
Good point. Speaker tells the truth, shock-horror!
That's a rather odd attitude hold if I may say so. While it comes as no surprise to hear allegations that Bercow is a prat I don't think it's the sort of thing that would lead to him being forced to resign either, but for all we political anoraks like to mock and belittle MPs, and many deserve it, it is surely not really the job of the Speaker to lambast people on a personal level? Getting a bit theatrical at people chuntering from sedentary positions seems like a personal style some Speakers may want to go for, but being overtly hostile about MPs on a personal level doesn't feel right.
Here In Italy, looking at CNN’s coverage of the wedding I’d say that, incidentally, the images of a beautiful, sunlit Windsor and regal London are probably worth about a billion to the British tourist industry.
Surely your Clapton memories cloud them out! 'Cairo to Clapton' - how did you ever arrive at such a phrase?
The tradition is that the Speaker is dragged to the chair. Bercow appears determined to reverse the procedure by refusing to go until he is dragged FROM the chair.
Not sure what the fuss is about. Andrea Leadsom is a stupid woman.
Would you be so relaxed if he called Emily Thornberry a "stupid woman" ?
Presumably you have no problem with the Speaker throwing out personal abuse from the Speakers chair to any MP whenever he feels like it?
No. I would not want him to call T May a stupid woman either. Certainly not Heidi Allen.
But Loathsome is different. She said she would make a better PM compared to May because she was a mother!
Here In Italy, looking at CNN’s coverage of the wedding I’d say that, incidentally, the images of a beautiful, sunlit Windsor and regal London are probably worth about a billion to the British tourist industry.
Good thing it isn't a typical grey British day then I guess!
Here In Italy, looking at CNN’s coverage of the wedding I’d say that, incidentally, the images of a beautiful, sunlit Windsor and regal London are probably worth about a billion to the British tourist industry.
I think that's a fair point Sean. I'm no monarchist but I suspect they are a net contributor to the UK economy given the tourism they generate.
The findings are consistent across all age groups, polical preferences and regions. Some people like this sort of thing, most don't really care. Probably true of most things...
The percentage "uninterested" seems to be larger this time despite wall to wall coverage across all channels.
Relative to other such weddings, this one appears to me to be more "interesting".
Last time around, though, the wedding was at least of some constitutional importance. The chances of Harry or any of his offspring becoming monarch seem so remote as to allow us to treat this wedding with the good-natured polite indifference that we treat most weddings of strangers with.
Granted, maybe people aren't necessarily decide on their interest in something base don their constitutional importance.
My very minor beef with this whole palaver is that ardent royalists assume we're all interested. I'm interested in rugby. I love the 6 nations, it's the highlight of my televisual year. But I don't assume everyone else shares my interest, nor express incredulity when other's don't know which weekend England are playing Wales. I don't mind the wedding, I wish them well, I don't even mind the coverage, but I bristle very slightly when it is assumed that I will be watching and will have an opinion, apart from the vaguely that's-nice-for-them opinion that any reasonable person would have about any pair of strangers getting married.
All that said, this is a very minor grumble. If people like watching royal weddings, I really don't mind.
Sports fans assume everyone else is interested in sport. So do tv schedulers and the news channels. Even this forum.
Much like you I bristle slightly when it is assumed that I know or care about some sporting event or other or the fate of some football manager and yet these matters seem to take up an inordinate amount of coverage in the press or time in tv schedules.
This week Beth Chatto, a famous and influential gardener, who pioneered the art of gardening in areas of low water, something of real value given climate change etc, died.
No mention in the news. Some retired football manager going into hospital gets front page treatment.
And, as a point of historical record, 2 out of our last 3 crowned monarchs were second sons. It would seem unlikely that this will be repeated after Charles but one never knows......
The tradition is that the Speaker is dragged to the chair. Bercow appears determined to reverse the procedure by refusing to go until he is dragged FROM the chair.
Not sure what the fuss is about. Andrea Leadsom is a stupid woman.
Good point. Speaker tells the truth, shock-horror!
It doesn't matter that it's the truth. The role of speaker is supposed to be impartial.
No Speaker has backed backbenchers more than Bercow. What exactly is his crime ? He called Loathsome "stupid", right ? So you want him to lie instead ?
His support of backbenchers is a positive, to be sure. But it's not about lying - there's no need for him to personally insult MPs in that way. It's not like it's resignation worthy on its own, but I am flabbergasted at the idea 'it's the truth' is a defence. Lots of MPs are stupid and useless no doubt, should the Speaker start naming and shaming them at the end of each parliamentary day? It's unnecessary, and belittles his position more than the object of his ire.
The tradition is that the Speaker is dragged to the chair. Bercow appears determined to reverse the procedure by refusing to go until he is dragged FROM the chair.
Not sure what the fuss is about. Andrea Leadsom is a stupid woman.
Good point. Speaker tells the truth, shock-horror!
It doesn't matter that it's the truth. The role of speaker is supposed to be impartial.
No Speaker has backed backbenchers more than Bercow. What exactly is his crime ? He called Loathsome "stupid", right ? So you want him to lie instead ?
What about (allegedly) bullying his staff (just normal people doing a normal job) and then refusing co-operate with a Parliamentary investigation into the allegations?
And as your so "relaxed" about the Speaker abusing any MP he feels like I assume you would have not problem with him calling Thornberry a "stupid woman" or Abbott " as thick as two short planks" etc?
The tradition is that the Speaker is dragged to the chair. Bercow appears determined to reverse the procedure by refusing to go until he is dragged FROM the chair.
Not sure what the fuss is about. Andrea Leadsom is a stupid woman.
Good point. Speaker tells the truth, shock-horror!
That's a rather odd attitude hold if I may say so. While it comes as no surprise to hear allegations that Bercow is a prat I don't think it's the sort of thing that would lead to him being forced to resign either, but for all we political anoraks like to mock and belittle MPs, and many deserve it, it is surely not really the job of the Speaker to lambast people on a personal level? Getting a bit theatrical at people chuntering from sedentary positions seems like a personal style some Speakers may want to go for, but being overtly hostile about MPs on a personal level doesn't feel right.
Even his accusers seem to be saying it was an off-the-cuff aside. Those who have long had Bercow in their sights are bigging this up imho.
The tradition is that the Speaker is dragged to the chair. Bercow appears determined to reverse the procedure by refusing to go until he is dragged FROM the chair.
Not sure what the fuss is about. Andrea Leadsom is a stupid woman.
Would you be so relaxed if he called Emily Thornberry a "stupid woman" ?
Presumably you have no problem with the Speaker throwing out personal abuse from the Speakers chair to any MP whenever he feels like it?
No. I would not want him to call T May a stupid woman either. Certainly not Heidi Allen.
But Loathsome is different. She said she would make a better PM compared to May because she was a mother!
And a very silly comment that was too. What does that have to do with whether it is appropriate for the Speaker to engage in personal insults?
Comments
If Leavers are unhappy at compromises beyond that, the smart thing to do is not to throw their hands up and storm off, but to bank the victories they do get (out of political union, freedom of movement, fisheries, agriculture) and keep pushing. Demand the next Tory leader goes further. If they don't, vote against them until they get a leader that does.
The country needs a second convulsive referendum right now like a hole in the head.
Given Remainers have so much disdain for a genuine democracy, why bother with the charade at all? Just admit you think certain policies should be so regardless of the plebs and they don't get a say. It would be more honest.
The Tory party is more than just the governing wing of UKIP.
Easy enough to avoid the telly for one day with such good weather. A sacrifice for the good of the country. Mrs Dent-Coady just sounds unnecessarily nasty.
I think another referendum would result in another narrow win for leave. That vote would destroy any chance of remaining or even rejoining.
To me the second ref is a case of be careful what you wish for, at least in terms of remainers. I would personally relish the opportunity to win again. And I'm certain we would.
In fact I took part in a debate before the referendum and made the point that even if Leave won, it would end up as BINO as the least worst solution. This would suck the air out of British politics for years to the detriment of more pressing problems such as housing and health.
All the electoral logic and all the civil service momentum is with leaving. Yet tonight it seems like RemainersUtd,com on here.
I do worry sometimes that not only are some people unable to come to terms with their view of the country losing, but that they're unable to understand the county AT ALL.
I didn't campaign last time. If we were forced into a second referendum, such would be my ire that I'd take 3 months off work, I'd offer my business address as a local HQ, and donate 10x my annual Tory party donation to the Yes Actually Leave Now campaign.
Brave, Minister....
Mortimer is offering to take 3 months off to campaign, to which I say - good! Democracy in action.
And I keep saying that I think Brexit would win. It would settle the argument for a generation.
I don’t want Brexit to be the only thing this country thinks and talks about for the next 10 years.
What other routes does that open up? I find that frightening.
My hope would be that such people realise that their vote has the power to change things and that being asked to vote again proves the power of their vote.
We thought we couldn't find a worse negotiator than Cameron... And then we did...
The EU have told Theresa what's going to happen and she's followed instructions to the letter.
And that is it.
2) Practicality: What does a good result look like? If it is Yes Actually Leave, the Remainers won't be happy. If it is Actually don't Leave, the Brexiteers won't be happy.
3, for about the thousandth time on here, and perhaps most importantly) Politics: It encourages the EU to give us a bad deal, and Remainers to conspire with the EU on this.
And the inevitable happened.
If you want to propose such a thing then I think it's fair enough, but as I said earlier in the thread I think that Referendums are not the way to go.
'Let's just vote again because we didn't like the result' is just a catastrophe.
My argument is the the referendum last time was based on delusions. Both sides are now older and wider, and we actually have a substantive option to consider - not the nonsense conjured up by Osborne and Johnson respectively.
So let’s do it. Let’s have a referendum on the deal.
“Mr. Max, one has the sneaking suspicion it's mostly women who are into the wedding, because they're more into weddings generally. Be interesting to get some polling on that.”
You don’t need polling. Women are sensible people (someone has to be!) and we understand that it is love, marriage and families which are the important things in life. Not silly nonsense like Brexit.
I don't know why David Davis didn't walk. In fact I don't know why all the Brexiteers don't walk and bring down the government.
Brilliant! Satire at its very best - nice one Sean!
And it’s not just the ones in Cabinet. There’s a whole gang of headbangers on the backbenchers. They’ll suck it up too, because a “clean” Brexit doesn’t actually exist - not without trashing the economy.
Because Theresa May and Remain have been calling the shots and have made sure those predictions didn't or couldn't come true...
The establishment have sabotaged Brexit from within... But we'll have our revenge on the establishment when we vote en-masse for Corbyn who will then take a wrecking ball to the whole rotten edifice.
1997 - Labour (Who didn't?
2001 - (Didn't vote - Could see Blair was going power mad and Con had William Hague... Enough said))
2005 - Lib-Dem (Iraq)
2010 - Con (Get Brown Out)
2015 - Con (Keep Lab out)
2017 - Con (I believed Theresa...)
2022 - Lab ???? (Revenge on Con for ignoring my instructions in the referendum)
Perhaps you're right, and perhaps the bulk of the referendum votes were based on delusions. Why should the next referendum be otherwise?
There really is no place to go if you start re-running votes. Perhaps we should re-run GE2017. Labour then would win?! I think that it's probably true. But are you going to re-run it again when the Tories point out that GE2017mk2 - if our vote paid attention then we'd win, and sure enough they do.
The tradition is that the Speaker is dragged to the chair. Bercow appears determined to reverse the procedure by refusing to go until he is dragged FROM the chair.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election#2018
https://www.republic.org.uk/sites/default/files/Republic_MonarchyResults_180511.pdf
The findings are consistent across all age groups, polical preferences and regions. Some people like this sort of thing, most don't really care. Probably true of most things...
But the point is that it’s not a re-run. We will have a concrete deal on the table.
Let the people have their say.
I gather some firms indulge in de-training unwanted staff so that they get fed up & resign, without the firm having to pay redundancy or get involved in tribunals.
Relative to other such weddings, this one appears to me to be more "interesting".
We have to put up with endless bloody football on the tele or snooker or other dull, incomprehensible sports we’re crap at. More people enjoy gardening than almost any other activity and yet we have to have the only TV programme dedicated to it taken off the schedules to accommodate some bloody minority sport.
If you’re not interested, go for a walk. The TV schedules will be full of dreary garbage suitable for misanthropes again soon enough........
But they won't do it because it would be a backwards step for European integration and that comes before all else.
I have every sympathy with Remainers, I did finish up voting leave, but anything I can be bothered to explain would have suggested remain, and all my friends were and are remainers. However, I voted leave on purely economic grounds.
Had 'Leave' lost then the 'lets vote again' stuff really would have been derided. Farage pontificating about 'they didn't understand what the status quo meant'!?
Once the ghastly process of delivering on what people have already said is complete, then we can see what they might want to say next. Any interruption has to be a deliberate interruption of process rather than destination.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/18/tory-council-at-risk-of-bankruptcy-slams-broken-funding-system
Anyone still asking: 'Austerity, what austerity?'
Granted, maybe people aren't necessarily decide on their interest in something base don their constitutional importance.
My very minor beef with this whole palaver is that ardent royalists assume we're all interested. I'm interested in rugby. I love the 6 nations, it's the highlight of my televisual year. But I don't assume everyone else shares my interest, nor express incredulity when other's don't know which weekend England are playing Wales. I don't mind the wedding, I wish them well, I don't even mind the coverage, but I bristle very slightly when it is assumed that I will be watching and will have an opinion, apart from the vaguely that's-nice-for-them opinion that any reasonable person would have about any pair of strangers getting married.
All that said, this is a very minor grumble. If people like watching royal weddings, I really don't mind.
Sad news: https://news.sky.com/story/live-plane-crashes-at-havana-airport-in-cuba-11377818
Would you be so relaxed if he called Emily Thornberry a "stupid woman" ?
Presumably you have no problem with the Speaker throwing out personal abuse from the Speakers chair to any MP whenever he feels like it?
A clear statement of fact by a clear voice, for example 'Ms Thornberry, you're a stupid woman', perhaps conducted once every 24hrs, and twice on sundays, would I feel go some way to me making peace with the universe.
Mr G, your'e on to something!
But Loathsome is different. She said she would make a better PM compared to May because she was a mother!
Much like you I bristle slightly when it is assumed that I know or care about some sporting event or other or the fate of some football manager and yet these matters seem to take up an inordinate amount of coverage in the press or time in tv schedules.
This week Beth Chatto, a famous and influential gardener, who pioneered the art of gardening in areas of low water, something of real value given climate change etc, died.
No mention in the news. Some retired football manager going into hospital gets front page treatment.
And, as a point of historical record, 2 out of our last 3 crowned monarchs were second sons. It would seem unlikely that this will be repeated after Charles but one never knows......
What about (allegedly) bullying his staff (just normal people doing a normal job) and then refusing co-operate with a Parliamentary investigation into the allegations?
And as your so "relaxed" about the Speaker abusing any MP he feels like I assume you would have not problem with him calling Thornberry a "stupid woman" or Abbott " as thick as two short planks" etc?