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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    O/T A little bit miffed that no-one's spotted the subtle change to my avatar since a week ago :(

    Different shade of red? :p
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    FPT: Mr. Blue, could you explain your reasoning for that referendum prediction? Not disputing it, just curious as I might bet that way.

    If the Repeal side are complaining about how their opponents are campaigning, they know they’re in trouble.

    In the USA, opinion on whether Roe v Wade was right has been incredibly stable, unlike the polling on interracial marriage, gay marriage, cannabis legalisation etc. It is a categorically different issue, because to many people, more than one life is involved, and that life has no say in the matter.
    Where Great Britain leads, Ireland lags behind:

    Legalisation of same-sex relations:
    E & W. 1967, Scot. 1980, NI 1982, Ireland 1993

    Legalisation of divorce:
    UK 1937, Ireland 1997

    Legalisation of abortion:
    E & W, Sct. 1967, NI illegal, Ireland illegal
    Blame the colonials that occupied Ireland for so long.

    The Irish still do - just a mere 100 years later. If only the chips on their shoulders would catch the potato blight.

    400+ years of being treated, at best, as second class citizens and at worst as slightly better than cattle tends to leave wounds!

    Not sure whether the English still resent the Normans, but one could argue that the Referendum seems to point that way.
    Yet Israel is one of the brightest and most innovative countries in the world - despite being a sandbox and being surrounded by mad mullahs.

    Ireland needs to ditch the church - like the Uk - if it wants to get on in the world.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,207

    You Anglos

    You Anglos?

    I guess English isn't your first lingo? :lol:
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    King Cole, how long should historical grudges be held? William the Conqueror committed genocide against Yorkshire 930 years[ish] ago. Ok for me to be a grumpy Gary about that?

    It's daft. Particularly when, as a nation, we've moved on from World War Two, yet some insist on clinging to ancient grudges that affected their distant ancestors. It's very silly.

    We should remember history and learn from it, but being chained to it is just a matter of sentimental self-harm.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Elliot said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    ay.

    If t

    I do wonder if going hard on the Downs syndrome issue is wise for the anti-abortion side. Where abortion is available, something like 95% of couples choose to terminate in that case.
    I think it is one of the most difficult moral questions. I am personally very opposed to abortion. When my wife and I were told there was a risk of downs with one of our children we didn’t even have the test done. But I am very loathe to make the choice for others, particularly other women. I think ultimately women should have the right to choose, at least to the point the fetus is viable.
    I too am quite anti abortion, in similar circumstances I too would not have had Downs screening. On the other hand, I would not inflict my choice on others, so would not want tighter abortion rules.

    It is entirely possible to be anti-abortion in ones own life but pro choice on a societal level.

    Sally Phillips made this remarkeable documentary on the BBC a little while back:

    https://youtu.be/x16wGajCHIw
    That is pretty much where I am. And yet...the number of abortions in the U.K. each year appals me. I respect the rights of others to make different choices but I wish they didn’t.
    There are many life choices that I see people make, that I wish they did not. I am sure that the legal profession is the same.

    Ideally, I would like to see abortion disappear by obsalescence. I mean that all children being conceived in loving and continuing relationships.
    I think that we are in exact agreement on this.
    Agreement on the desirability of utopias is not the best basis for policy making.
    If every child were conceived in a loving and continuing relationship, a great deal of legislation would be entirely unnecessary...
    We both accept the social utility of abortion and the right of the woman to choose. In Eire I would be voting yes despite my personal distaste.

    For me, the most compelling argument was whatever the outcome Irish women will continue to have abortions. It is simply a matter of whether they have them in Eire or not.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,245
    Nigelb said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Foxy said:

    DavidL said:

    Elliot said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    FPT: Mr. Blue, could you explain your reasoning for that referendum prediction? Not disputing it, just curious as I might bet that way.

    If the Repeal side are complaining about how their opponents are campaigning, they know they’re in trouble.

    In the USA, opinion on whether Roe v Wade was right has been incredibly stable, unlike the polling on interracial marriage, gay marriage, cannabis legalisation etc. It is a categorically different issue, because to many people, more than one life is involved, and that life has no say in the matter.

    I do wonder if going hard on the Downs syndrome issue is wise for the anti-abortion side. Where abortion is available, something like 95% of couples choose to terminate in that case.
    I think it is one of the most difficult moral questions. I am personally very opposed to abortion. When my wife and I were told there was a risk of downs with one of our children we didn’t even have the test done. But I am very loathe to make the choice for others, particularly other women. I think ultimately women should have the right to choose, at least to the point the fetus is viable.
    I too am quite anti abortion, in similar circumstances I too would not have had Downs screening. On the other hand, I would not inflict my choice on others, so would not want tighter abortion rules.

    It is entirely possible to be anti-abortion in ones own life but pro choice on a societal level.

    Sally Phillips made this remarkeable documentary on the BBC a little while back:

    https://youtu.be/x16wGajCHIw
    That is pretty much where I am. And yet...the number of abortions in the U.K. each year appals me. I respect the rights of others to make different choices but I wish they didn’t.
    There are many life choices that I see people make, that I wish they did not. I am sure that the legal profession is the same.

    Ideally, I would like to see abortion disappear by obsalescence. I mean that all children being conceived in loving and continuing relationships.
    I think that we are in exact agreement on this.
    Agreement on the desirability of utopias is not the best basis for policy making.
    If every child were conceived in a loving and continuing relationship, a great deal of legislation would be entirely unnecessary...
    Although if there was no crime society would break down.
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    TGOHF said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    FPT: Mr. Blue, could you explain your reasoning for that referendum prediction? Not disputing it, just curious as I might bet that way.

    If the Repeal side are complaining about how their opponents are campaigning, they know they’re in trouble.

    In the USA, opinion on whether Roe v Wade was right has been incredibly stable, unlike the polling on interracial marriage, gay marriage, cannabis legalisation etc. It is a categorically different issue, because to many people, more than one life is involved, and that life has no say in the matter.
    Where Great Britain leads, Ireland lags behind:

    Legalisation of same-sex relations:
    E & W. 1967, Scot. 1980, NI 1982, Ireland 1993

    Legalisation of divorce:
    UK 1937, Ireland 1997

    Legalisation of abortion:
    E & W, Sct. 1967, NI illegal, Ireland illegal
    Blame the colonials that occupied Ireland for so long.

    The Irish still do - just a mere 100 years later. If only the chips on their shoulders would catch the potato blight.

    400+ years of being treated, at best, as second class citizens and at worst as slightly better than cattle tends to leave wounds!

    Not sure whether the English still resent the Normans, but one could argue that the Referendum seems to point that way.
    The English have a strange view of their past oppression. The Norman Conquest is pretty much celebrated and I don't anticipate an Indian Raj version of Monty Python's "What did the Romans ever do for us?" sketch any time soon.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,908

    "Elon Musk admits Tesla braking flaw"

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-44210793

    I like that headline read aloud. His research is groundbreaking

    He's just making it worse. The idea that they can understand a problem they denied existed, fix it, test it, and roll it out over the air in a few days is insanity. They risk introducing more problems.

    I really admire SpaceX Musk (although even that entity can be a little odd at times). Tesla Musk is a sh*t.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,025

    Particularly when, as a nation, we've moved on from World War Two...

    There's plenty of evidence that we haven't, or at least we've regressed.
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    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited May 2018

    King Cole, how long should historical grudges be held? William the Conqueror committed genocide against Yorkshire 930 years[ish] ago. Ok for me to be a grumpy Gary about that?

    It's daft. Particularly when, as a nation, we've moved on from World War Two, yet some insist on clinging to ancient grudges that affected their distant ancestors. It's very silly.

    We should remember history and learn from it, but being chained to it is just a matter of sentimental self-harm.

    The LibDems and their Whig forebears have much to answer for .... So called "Glorious Revolution" and then even worse - sandals and bar charts !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    edited May 2018
    A really positive Ed Sheeran story - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-44195496

    I wonder if there'll eventually be a legal battle with Viagogo. Hopefully Mr Sheeran will emerge victorious if so.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903
    Does anyone have the whole twitter thread for context of the tweets ?
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    These tweets certainly aren't a great advert for the fraternal Labour party. Regardless of context, the words tweeted are pretty crass.
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Nigelb said:



    Agreement on the desirability of utopias is not the best basis for policy making.
    If every child were conceived in a loving and continuing relationship, a great deal of legislation would be entirely unnecessary...

    Not every child conceived in a loving and continuing relationship avoids being aborted, even without negative tests. Sometimes the parents feel they just can't cope with another one at the moment, then a few years later the timing is better.

    Good afternoon, everybody.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    Pulpstar said:

    A really positive Ed Sheeran story - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-44195496

    I wonder if there'll eventually be a legal battle with Viagogo. Hopefully Mr Sheeran will emerge victorious if so.

    Good on him. These people are parasites.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130

    Particularly when, as a nation, we've moved on from World War Two...

    There's plenty of evidence that we haven't, or at least we've regressed.
    Who do you think you are kidding...
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    A really positive Ed Sheeran story - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-44195496

    I wonder if there'll eventually be a legal battle with Viagogo. Hopefully Mr Sheeran will emerge victorious if so.

    Why Is the Live-Event Ticket Market So Screwed Up?

    http://freakonomics.com/podcast/live-event-ticket-market-screwed/
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Good afternoon, Miss JGP.
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    AnneJGP said:

    Nigelb said:



    Agreement on the desirability of utopias is not the best basis for policy making.
    If every child were conceived in a loving and continuing relationship, a great deal of legislation would be entirely unnecessary...

    Not every child conceived in a loving and continuing relationship avoids being aborted, even without negative tests. Sometimes the parents feel they just can't cope with another one at the moment, then a few years later the timing is better.

    Good afternoon, everybody.
    Good afternoon!
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Particularly when, as a nation, we've moved on from World War Two...

    There's plenty of evidence that we haven't, or at least we've regressed.
    Luckily we have the EU to save us from rationing, World wars and fascism.



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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Thirty-five Ukrainian football clubs, including some in the country's top flight, have been accused of being involved in a match-fixing operation.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/44216041
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    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    "as an academic"

    Lolol.

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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018
    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/Ortino_Federico/status/998921764771155969

    I am afraid I would have to deduct marks from that answer, due to the use of poor grammar.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    HYUFD said:

    2nd place in Lewisham East

    Tories 1992, 1997, 2001, 2005, 2015, 2017

    LDs 2010

    1st place in Lewisham East

    Tories 1987

    'LDs can't win here, Only the Tories can beat Labour in Lewisham East!'

    Then why are the Tories 100/1 and the LDs 20/1?
    Lazy punters who have not checked the electoral history of the seat?

    Plus on current polls while Labour should win easily the Tories should hold second place without much difficulty
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    AnneJGP said:

    Nigelb said:



    Agreement on the desirability of utopias is not the best basis for policy making.
    If every child were conceived in a loving and continuing relationship, a great deal of legislation would be entirely unnecessary...

    Not every child conceived in a loving and continuing relationship avoids being aborted, even without negative tests. Sometimes the parents feel they just can't cope with another one at the moment, then a few years later the timing is better.

    Good afternoon, everybody.
    Agree, and it’s a heart-breaking situation. Sometimes contraception fails, and when the mother is an invalid. Seen that, as I say, heart-breaking.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. HYUFD, interesting you say that, given the odds:
    https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/998913472124637184
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924

    These tweets certainly aren't a great advert for the fraternal Labour party. Regardless of context, the words tweeted are pretty crass.


    The man’s a full-time, complete berk for even writing them down.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    Mr. HYUFD, interesting you say that, given the odds:
    https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/998913472124637184

    Thanks, might put a few quid on that first bet
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    TGOHF said:
    Otoh it does rather suggest he's done a late membership drive amongst his mates.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    HYUFD said:

    Mr. HYUFD, interesting you say that, given the odds:
    https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/998913472124637184

    Thanks, might put a few quid on that first bet
    I agree that the Conservatives should probably be slight favourites in the match bet - but the Lib Dems should be shorter for the seat (it's basically inconceivable for Labour to lose it, but if they do, it will be to the LDs).
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    King Cole, how long should historical grudges be held? William the Conqueror committed genocide against Yorkshire 930 years[ish] ago. Ok for me to be a grumpy Gary about that?

    It's daft. Particularly when, as a nation, we've moved on from World War Two, yet some insist on clinging to ancient grudges that affected their distant ancestors. It's very silly.

    We should remember history and learn from it, but being chained to it is just a matter of sentimental self-harm.

    The idea that England has moved on from WWII is ludicrous nonsense. It forms the core of the country's positive self-image.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. Me, I specifically meant, but didn't explicitly lay out, that I meant the anti-German sentiment.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited May 2018
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,291
    Seems Liam has been humiliated. Australia and New Zealand are now sidling up to make trade deals with the EU before of us.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/eu-trade-talks-australia-new-zealand-brexit-commonwealth

    Of course, there was much resentment when we abandoned them for the Common Market in the 1970s, so perhaps this is a dish best served cold.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    Seems Liam has been humiliated. Australia and New Zealand are now sidling up to make trade deals with the EU before of us.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/eu-trade-talks-australia-new-zealand-brexit-commonwealth

    Of course, there was much resentment when we abandoned them for the Common Market in the 1970s, so perhaps this is a dish best served cold.

    Perhaps that is because the UK is not able to negotiate until it has left?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. D, and also Fox being quite incompetent.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    King Cole, how long should historical grudges be held? William the Conqueror committed genocide against Yorkshire 930 years[ish] ago. Ok for me to be a grumpy Gary about that?

    It's daft. Particularly when, as a nation, we've moved on from World War Two, yet some insist on clinging to ancient grudges that affected their distant ancestors. It's very silly.

    We should remember history and learn from it, but being chained to it is just a matter of sentimental self-harm.

    The idea that England has moved on from WWII is ludicrous nonsense. It forms the core of the country's positive self-image.
    MD is too affluent to have noticed the picture on a mere five pound note.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    Seems Liam has been humiliated. Australia and New Zealand are now sidling up to make trade deals with the EU before of us.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/eu-trade-talks-australia-new-zealand-brexit-commonwealth

    Of course, there was much resentment when we abandoned them for the Common Market in the 1970s, so perhaps this is a dish best served cold.

    Opening discussions have also begun on an Australia and New Zealand UK trade deal too albeit not yet full negotiations so I don't think this really impacts much on Brexit though it will strengthen May's case for a Customs Partnership with the EU
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    Mr. D, and also Fox being quite incompetent.

    Yes, I think I've said before that May should replace him.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. L, one can but dream of such obnoxious wealth.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. HYUFD, interesting you say that, given the odds:
    https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/998913472124637184

    Thanks, might put a few quid on that first bet
    I agree that the Conservatives should probably be slight favourites in the match bet - but the Lib Dems should be shorter for the seat (it's basically inconceivable for Labour to lose it, but if they do, it will be to the LDs).
    The LDs got just 4% in Lewisham East at GE17, the Tories got 23%
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924

    King Cole, how long should historical grudges be held? William the Conqueror committed genocide against Yorkshire 930 years[ish] ago. Ok for me to be a grumpy Gary about that?

    It's daft. Particularly when, as a nation, we've moved on from World War Two, yet some insist on clinging to ancient grudges that affected their distant ancestors. It's very silly.

    We should remember history and learn from it, but being chained to it is just a matter of sentimental self-harm.

    The idea that England has moved on from WWII is ludicrous nonsense. It forms the core of the country's positive self-image.
    Sorry Mr D, been doing all sorts of things this afternoon, including trip to the off-licence, which advertised an offer on my wife’s favouite. Agree that historical grudges can be, and often are, held too long. However, they are.
    However I do agree that England as a whole hasn’t totally moved on from the World Wars. ‘Two World Wars and one World Cup” is a popular Ingerland supporters chant when their tem is playing Germany.
    A relation of mine kept muttering abot her son marrying a German to her dying day, and she was over 90 when she did die. She still also, on occasion, talked about her days in the WRNS in WWII.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    RobD said:

    Mr. D, and also Fox being quite incompetent.

    Yes, I think I've said before that May should replace him.
    Do you think she’d be any better? Who should replace her?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. HYUFD, interesting you say that, given the odds:
    https://twitter.com/LadPolitics/status/998913472124637184

    Thanks, might put a few quid on that first bet
    I agree that the Conservatives should probably be slight favourites in the match bet - but the Lib Dems should be shorter for the seat (it's basically inconceivable for Labour to lose it, but if they do, it will be to the LDs).
    Local election results:

    "CON
    Votes" 13,840

    "LIB
    Votes" 9,222
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,321
    It's a salient reminder to factional types that the media don't really bother to distinguish between pro and anti Corbyn people - it's just a "new Labour outrage" story.
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    El_SidEl_Sid Posts: 145
    This is interesting from Matt Pound who ran Daby's campaign :
    https://labourlist.org/2018/05/matt-pound-how-janet-daby-won-the-lewisham-east-selection-race/

    "Sakina Sheikh announced her intention to stand within an hour of Heidi Alexander’s resignation. Her leaflets had already been printed by the time she was shortlisted on the Monday and dropped on the doorstep of every Labour Member in Lewisham East on Tuesday morning. Reportedly, Momentum were able to call through the entire list of eligible voting members of Lewisham East Labour Party on the same day they received it. Momentum had paid staff working full-time on Sakina’s campaign and volunteers working remotely in phonebanks in locations across London.

    By contrast, when I arrived to volunteer on Janet’s phonebank at 6pm on the Tuesday, a leaflet had not been designed let alone printed....

    Part of the reason we checked and rechecked our calculations and fought so hard to turn out every single vote was that on some level we believed Momentum’s own propaganda – that it is an unstoppable force. At one stage we even had a theory that, following conversations with members claiming to be contacted by Momentum up to 25 times in a single week, that they had swamped the phone lines to a degree that meant no one else could canvass effectively. The real explanation was far simpler: the swathes of Momentum-supporting members getting ready to pack the selection meeting simply didn’t exist. We were chasing an illusion, a powerful illusion backed up by their incredible presence on social media, but an illusion just the same...

    All the money they spent, phone calls they made, frontbench endorsements they secured, door-to-door canvassing and celebrity visits from Owen Jones translated into just 135 votes out of a potential 1,600."
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,903

    It's a salient reminder to factional types that the media don't really bother to distinguish between pro and anti Corbyn people - it's just a "new Labour outrage" story.

    Indeed, a foolish errand by Owen Jones.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    RobD said:

    Mr. D, and also Fox being quite incompetent.

    Yes, I think I've said before that May should replace him.
    Do you think she’d be any better? Who should replace her?
    May should replace in, as in she should fire him and replace him with someone else.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    El_Sid said:

    This is interesting from Matt Pound who ran Daby's campaign :
    https://labourlist.org/2018/05/matt-pound-how-janet-daby-won-the-lewisham-east-selection-race/

    "Sakina Sheikh announced her intention to stand within an hour of Heidi Alexander’s resignation. Her leaflets had already been printed by the time she was shortlisted on the Monday and dropped on the doorstep of every Labour Member in Lewisham East on Tuesday morning. Reportedly, Momentum were able to call through the entire list of eligible voting members of Lewisham East Labour Party on the same day they received it. Momentum had paid staff working full-time on Sakina’s campaign and volunteers working remotely in phonebanks in locations across London.

    By contrast, when I arrived to volunteer on Janet’s phonebank at 6pm on the Tuesday, a leaflet had not been designed let alone printed....

    Part of the reason we checked and rechecked our calculations and fought so hard to turn out every single vote was that on some level we believed Momentum’s own propaganda – that it is an unstoppable force. At one stage we even had a theory that, following conversations with members claiming to be contacted by Momentum up to 25 times in a single week, that they had swamped the phone lines to a degree that meant no one else could canvass effectively. The real explanation was far simpler: the swathes of Momentum-supporting members getting ready to pack the selection meeting simply didn’t exist. We were chasing an illusion, a powerful illusion backed up by their incredible presence on social media, but an illusion just the same...

    All the money they spent, phone calls they made, frontbench endorsements they secured, door-to-door canvassing and celebrity visits from Owen Jones translated into just 135 votes out of a potential 1,600."

    I’ve seen some odd phrases on here but 'celebrity visits from Owen Jones’ must be one of the odder ones.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Mr. D, and also Fox being quite incompetent.

    Yes, I think I've said before that May should replace him.
    Do you think she’d be any better? Who should replace her?
    May should replace in, as in she should fire him and replace him with someone else.
    LOL
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    CookieCookie Posts: 11,363

    TGOHF said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    FPT: Mr. Blue, could you explain your reasoning for that referendum prediction? Not disputing it, just curious as I might bet that way.

    If the Repeal side are complaining about how their opponents are campaigning, they know they’re in trouble.

    In the USA, opinion on whether Roe v Wade was right has been incredibly stable, unlike the polling on interracial marriage, gay marriage, cannabis legalisation etc. It is a categorically different issue, because to many people, more than one life is involved, and that life has no say in the matter.
    Where Great Britain leads, Ireland lags behind:

    Legalisation of same-sex relations:
    E & W. 1967, Scot. 1980, NI 1982, Ireland 1993

    Legalisation of divorce:
    UK 1937, Ireland 1997

    Legalisation of abortion:
    E & W, Sct. 1967, NI illegal, Ireland illegal
    Blame the colonials that occupied Ireland for so long.

    The Irish still do - just a mere 100 years later. If only the chips on their shoulders would catch the potato blight.

    400+ years of being treated, at best, as second class citizens and at worst as slightly better than cattle tends to leave wounds!

    Not sure whether the English still resent the Normans, but one could argue that the Referendum seems to point that way.
    The English have a strange view of their past oppression. The Norman Conquest is pretty much celebrated and I don't anticipate an Indian Raj version of Monty Python's "What did the Romans ever do for us?" sketch any time soon.
    Well I still resent the Norman conquest. England would have been a much happier and more successful place without it, that's for sure. I also resent that as an Englishman, my forebears are blamed by the Welsh and Irish for what was effectively a Norman conquest of their countries.

    But as I am a descendent of pretty much everyone who was around in Greate Britain 1000 years ago - or at least everyone who had descendents - Norman, English, Scottish, Welsh and presumably somewhere some Irish and continental too- it's daft to let that resentment fester too much. I am a product of an imperfect history.

    The Norman conquest is fascinating. An invading army with a huge amount of luck on their side, and an Anglo-Saxon ruling class who had basically given up. To what extent are the relative idyll of pre-Norman England and the softness in the face of an invader linked? See also pre-Mongol Viking-led Russia in the face of the Mongol invader. A question for Morris Dancer, perhaps?
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    So I see that the OBR's March 2018 borrowing forecast was £5bn too high for the year ending in March 2018.

    Or if we look back further its November 2017 borrowing forecast was £10bn too high and the forecast from March 2017 was £18bn too high.

    Likewise its March 2017 borrowing forecast for the year ending March 2017 was again £5bn too high and its November 2016 borrowing forecast for that year was £22bn too high.

    Curiously these too high forecasts only seem to have started after the Referendum and George Osborne's departure. Before then the OBR had rather a habit of underforecasting government borrowing much to the benefit of George Osborne, the man who had created the OBR.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited May 2018
    Useless fact:

    One of the independent candidates in Lewisham East, Charles Carey, previously contested the seat in February 1974, getting 269 votes. He hasn't stood in the constituency since then until now.
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    sarissasarissa Posts: 1,767
    RobD said:

    Seems Liam has been humiliated. Australia and New Zealand are now sidling up to make trade deals with the EU before of us.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/eu-trade-talks-australia-new-zealand-brexit-commonwealth

    Of course, there was much resentment when we abandoned them for the Common Market in the 1970s, so perhaps this is a dish best served cold.

    Perhaps that is because the UK is not able to negotiate until it has left?
    We could always start, but we are not able to negotiate sensibly until the basics of our future agreement with the EU becomes clear.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    You Anglos

    You Anglos?

    I guess English isn't your first lingo? :lol:
    He's scotch (sic) - what do you expect?
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,291
    RobD said:

    Seems Liam has been humiliated. Australia and New Zealand are now sidling up to make trade deals with the EU before of us.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/eu-trade-talks-australia-new-zealand-brexit-commonwealth

    Of course, there was much resentment when we abandoned them for the Common Market in the 1970s, so perhaps this is a dish best served cold.

    Perhaps that is because the UK is not able to negotiate until it has left?
    Yes, but these should have been the first two gleaming jewels of Britain's new global era. If we're going to be looking with envious eyes at the EU's deal with Aus-Zealand then one starts to question the whole point. How did Liam let that one slip through his fingers? That only leaves us with Ghana and perhaps Trump and his chlorinated chicken.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961

    RobD said:

    Seems Liam has been humiliated. Australia and New Zealand are now sidling up to make trade deals with the EU before of us.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/eu-trade-talks-australia-new-zealand-brexit-commonwealth

    Of course, there was much resentment when we abandoned them for the Common Market in the 1970s, so perhaps this is a dish best served cold.

    Perhaps that is because the UK is not able to negotiate until it has left?
    Yes, but these should have been the first two gleaming jewels of Britain's new global era. If we're going to be looking with envious eyes at the EU's deal with Aus-Zealand then one starts to question the whole point. How did Liam let that one slip through his fingers? That only leaves us with Ghana and perhaps Trump and his chlorinated chicken.
    Because we haven't left yet? I believe Australia and New Zealand have both expressed a desire to secure a trade deal.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,633
    Surely one of the most irritating things about by-elections is how even if very safe seats if they are won by the opposition we still have to see the winners go on about what this says about the country, and how the government is being rejected etc etc. All of which can be true, but a win in a safe seat rarely shows that, and whoever does it it comes across as so phony.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    AndyJS said:

    Useless fact:

    One of the independent candidates in Lewisham East, Charles Carey, previously contested the seat in February 1974, getting 269 votes. He hasn't stood in the constituency since then until now.

    I do hope he gets 269 votes again. That would be poetic.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    sarissa said:

    RobD said:

    Seems Liam has been humiliated. Australia and New Zealand are now sidling up to make trade deals with the EU before of us.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/eu-trade-talks-australia-new-zealand-brexit-commonwealth

    Of course, there was much resentment when we abandoned them for the Common Market in the 1970s, so perhaps this is a dish best served cold.

    Perhaps that is because the UK is not able to negotiate until it has left?
    We could always start, but we are not able to negotiate sensibly until the basics of our future agreement with the EU becomes clear.
    Precisely, and I don't doubt that some groundwork is being done. But it can't go that far without the details of the treaty with the EU.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    edited May 2018
    Cookie said:

    The English have a strange view of their past oppression. The Norman Conquest is pretty much celebrated and I don't anticipate an Indian Raj version of Monty Python's "What did the Romans ever do for us?" sketch any time soon.

    Well I still resent the Norman conquest. England would have been a much happier and more successful place without it, that's for sure. I also resent that as an Englishman, my forebears are blamed by the Welsh and Irish for what was effectively a Norman conquest of their countries.

    But as I am a descendent of pretty much everyone who was around in Greate Britain 1000 years ago - or at least everyone who had descendents - Norman, English, Scottish, Welsh and presumably somewhere some Irish and continental too- it's daft to let that resentment fester too much. I am a product of an imperfect history.

    The Norman conquest is fascinating. An invading army with a huge amount of luck on their side, and an Anglo-Saxon ruling class who had basically given up. To what extent are the relative idyll of pre-Norman England and the softness in the face of an invader linked? See also pre-Mongol Viking-led Russia in the face of the Mongol invader. A question for Morris Dancer, perhaps?
    It is historically unusual how easy it was for the Normans - one battle, at which they suffered heavy losses themselves, was all they needed.

    Compare with how hard the Welsh, Scots and Irish fought for independence during the middle ages. Or indeed Anglo-Saxon England against Viking invasion.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    El_Sid said:

    This is interesting from Matt Pound who ran Daby's campaign :
    https://labourlist.org/2018/05/matt-pound-how-janet-daby-won-the-lewisham-east-selection-race/

    "Sakina Sheikh announced her intention to stand within an hour of Heidi Alexander’s resignation. Her leaflets had already been printed by the time she was shortlisted on the Monday and dropped on the doorstep of every Labour Member in Lewisham East on Tuesday morning. Reportedly, Momentum were able to call through the entire list of eligible voting members of Lewisham East Labour Party on the same day they received it. Momentum had paid staff working full-time on Sakina’s campaign and volunteers working remotely in phonebanks in locations across London.

    By contrast, when I arrived to volunteer on Janet’s phonebank at 6pm on the Tuesday, a leaflet had not been designed let alone printed....

    Part of the reason we checked and rechecked our calculations and fought so hard to turn out every single vote was that on some level we believed Momentum’s own propaganda – that it is an unstoppable force. At one stage we even had a theory that, following conversations with members claiming to be contacted by Momentum up to 25 times in a single week, that they had swamped the phone lines to a degree that meant no one else could canvass effectively. The real explanation was far simpler: the swathes of Momentum-supporting members getting ready to pack the selection meeting simply didn’t exist. We were chasing an illusion, a powerful illusion backed up by their incredible presence on social media, but an illusion just the same...

    All the money they spent, phone calls they made, frontbench endorsements they secured, door-to-door canvassing and celebrity visits from Owen Jones translated into just 135 votes out of a potential 1,600."

    I’ve seen some odd phrases on here but 'celebrity visits from Owen Jones’ must be one of the odder ones.
    Indeed - the , literally , ultimate z-lister.
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    AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    These tweets certainly aren't a great advert for the fraternal Labour party. Regardless of context, the words tweeted are pretty crass.

    https://twitter.com/RettopNoj/status/998910391177695239
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    Mr. JS, that's quite interesting.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Anorak said:

    These tweets certainly aren't a great advert for the fraternal Labour party. Regardless of context, the words tweeted are pretty crass.

    https://twitter.com/RettopNoj/status/998910391177695239
    Wrong again Owen - they are at least of some use, unlike.....
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    King Cole, how long should historical grudges be held? William the Conqueror committed genocide against Yorkshire 930 years[ish] ago. Ok for me to be a grumpy Gary about that?

    It's daft. Particularly when, as a nation, we've moved on from World War Two, yet some insist on clinging to ancient grudges that affected their distant ancestors. It's very silly.

    We should remember history and learn from it, but being chained to it is just a matter of sentimental self-harm.

    The idea that England has moved on from WWII is ludicrous nonsense. It forms the core of the country's positive self-image.
    True , Pike, telling Putin to go away and shut up, enhanced the image.

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    BannedInParisBannedInParis Posts: 2,191
    kle4 said:

    Surely one of the most irritating things about by-elections is how even if very safe seats if they are won by the opposition we still have to see the winners go on about what this says about the country, and how the government is being rejected etc etc. All of which can be true, but a win in a safe seat rarely shows that, and whoever does it it comes across as so phony.

    My favourite ones were after the 5 Labour MPs got sent to jail for expenses.

    You had somewhere like Barnsley, and the winner going "this is a great vote for change".

    Yeah, run that one past me again, will you?
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,046
    Tesco Direct closing is unwelcome news:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44211616

    But not surprising it was loss making at the prices they were selling at.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    edited May 2018
    Cookie said:

    TGOHF said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    FPT: Mr. Blue, could you explain your reasoning for that referendum prediction? Not disputing it, just curious as I might bet that way.

    If the Repeal side are complaining about how their opponents are campaigning, they know they’re in trouble.

    In the USA, opinion on whether Roe v Wade was right has been incredibly stable, unlike the polling on interracial marriage, gay marriage, cannabis legalisation etc. It is a categorically different issue, because to many people, more than one life is involved, and that life has no say in the matter.
    Where Great Britain leads, Ireland lags behind:

    Legalisation of same-sex relations:
    E & W. 1967, Scot. 1980, NI 1982, Ireland 1993

    Legalisation of divorce:
    UK 1937, Ireland 1997

    Legalisation of abortion:
    E & W, Sct. 1967, NI illegal, Ireland illegal


    The Irish still do - just a mere 100 years later. If only the chips on their shoulders would catch the potato blight.



    Not sure whether the English still resent the Normans, but one could argue that the Referendum seems to point that way.
    The English have a strange view of their past oppression. The Norman Conquest is pretty much celebrated and I don't anticipate an Indian Raj version of Monty Python's "What did the Romans ever do for us?" sketch any time soon.
    Well I still resent the Norman conquest. England would have been a much happier and more successful place without it, that's for sure. I also resent that as an Englishman, my forebears are blamed by the Welsh and Irish for what was effectively a Norman conquest of their countries.

    But as I am a descendent of pretty much everyone who was around in Greate Britain 1000 years ago - or at least everyone who had descendents - Norman, English, Scottish, Welsh and presumably somewhere some Irish and continental too- it's daft to let that resentment fester too much. I am a product of an imperfect history.

    The Norman conquest is fascinating. An invading army with a huge amount of luck on their side, and an Anglo-Saxon ruling class who had basically given up. To what extent are the relative idyll of pre-Norman England and the softness in the face of an invader linked? See also pre-Mongol Viking-led Russia in the face of the Mongol invader. A question for Morris Dancer, perhaps?
    To be fair, William the Bastard did have a claim to the throne, and some nobles probably recognised that.

    Edit. And W-t-B was ruthless with ‘rebels'
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,908

    Tesco Direct closing is unwelcome news:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44211616

    But not surprising it was loss making at the prices they were selling at.

    I'm surprised they're totally getting out of that market, considering their rival Sainsbury's bought Argos. Or are Tesco Direct and Argos fulfilling broadly different markets?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    edited May 2018
    AndyJS said:
    Does anyone else spot the flaw with this being widely reported?
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Seems Liam has been humiliated. Australia and New Zealand are now sidling up to make trade deals with the EU before of us.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/22/eu-trade-talks-australia-new-zealand-brexit-commonwealth

    Of course, there was much resentment when we abandoned them for the Common Market in the 1970s, so perhaps this is a dish best served cold.


    https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/998881362034733056
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    Tesco Direct closing is unwelcome news:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44211616

    But not surprising it was loss making at the prices they were selling at.

    I'm surprised they're totally getting out of that market, considering their rival Sainsbury's bought Argos. Or are Tesco Direct and Argos fulfilling broadly different markets?
    Same market but Argos is much better equipped to fight Amazon. Same day delivery, good pricing, strong brand. It looks like Sainsbury's have played a blinder by buying Argos and "merging" with Asda. Of all the major supermarkets it does seem like Sainsbury's is the most forward thinking.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,969
    King Cole, the claim is very debatable. The nobles did not recognise it much, given they fought against him at Hastings, and multiple rebellions over years reduced the Anglo-Saxon numbers at the top of nobility and clergy from maybe a third shortly after 1066 to almost zero by the end of the century.

    The invading army did have a lot of luck on their side, but Harold also made a critical error by choosing not to wait.

    As for the country being an idyll, there had been another successful invasion (Canute) not too long ago, and Edward the Confessor had decades of cold war with Godwin and his sons.

    That said, the Norman Conquest did utterly rejig the political landscape, lead to huge numbers of deaths (especially amongst the nobility and in certain areas, such as Yorkshire). I can highly recommend Marc Morris' The Norman Conquest, which I mentioned repeatedly here when it was just £3. Since risen to £9 but it's very good indeed for both the preceding years, 1066 and the rest of William's reign.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,908
    MaxPB said:

    Tesco Direct closing is unwelcome news:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44211616

    But not surprising it was loss making at the prices they were selling at.

    I'm surprised they're totally getting out of that market, considering their rival Sainsbury's bought Argos. Or are Tesco Direct and Argos fulfilling broadly different markets?
    Same market but Argos is much better equipped to fight Amazon. Same day delivery, good pricing, strong brand. It looks like Sainsbury's have played a blinder by buying Argos and "merging" with Asda. Of all the major supermarkets it does seem like Sainsbury's is the most forward thinking.
    Thanks.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:
    Does anyone else spot the flaw with this being widely reported?
    Good point.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130

    So I see that the OBR's March 2018 borrowing forecast was £5bn too high for the year ending in March 2018.

    Or if we look back further its November 2017 borrowing forecast was £10bn too high and the forecast from March 2017 was £18bn too high.

    Likewise its March 2017 borrowing forecast for the year ending March 2017 was again £5bn too high and its November 2016 borrowing forecast for that year was £22bn too high.

    Curiously these too high forecasts only seem to have started after the Referendum and George Osborne's departure. Before then the OBR had rather a habit of underforecasting government borrowing much to the benefit of George Osborne, the man who had created the OBR.

    It is also significant that these differences are largely coming from additional tax revenue rather than underspending. This again, along with the employment figures, suggests that growth is being underestimated.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130

    Tesco Direct closing is unwelcome news:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-44211616

    But not surprising it was loss making at the prices they were selling at.

    No one can compete with Amazon until they start paying taxes like their competitors.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,576
    The Poles have concluded that their Presidents plane was brought down in Russia by explosions, not pilot error, as the Russians & Polish Prime Minister Tusk's investigations had:

    http://niezalezna.pl/data/TECHNICAL_REPORT.pdf
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    edited May 2018

    The Poles have concluded that their Presidents plane was brought down in Russia by explosions, not pilot error, as the Russians & Polish Prime Minister Tusk's investigations had:

    http://niezalezna.pl/data/TECHNICAL_REPORT.pdf

    The Russians would really assassinate a sitting President? Has there been a third party investigation into the crash?

    Edit: misread your comment. You said it was brought down in Russia, not by Russia. My bad!
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited May 2018
    Farage is grilling Zuckerberg in Brussels.

    https://www.pscp.tv/w/1OyKANVbwmMGb
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,908

    The Poles have concluded that their Presidents plane was brought down in Russia by explosions, not pilot error, as the Russians & Polish Prime Minister Tusk's investigations had:

    http://niezalezna.pl/data/TECHNICAL_REPORT.pdf

    That reads like they think there was an explosion near the end of the left wing, and then in a passenger cabin.

    It's hard to think of a technical failure on the plane that would cause that.

    And the Russians were not exactly helpful to the investigation. hmmm...
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,576
    RobD said:

    The Poles have concluded that their Presidents plane was brought down in Russia by explosions, not pilot error, as the Russians & Polish Prime Minister Tusk's investigations had:

    http://niezalezna.pl/data/TECHNICAL_REPORT.pdf

    The Russians would really assassinate a sitting President? Has there been a third party investigation into the crash?

    Edit: misread your comment. You said it was brought down in Russia, not by Russia. My bad!
    The report doesn't conclude 'who did it' - but since it rubbishes the previous Russian & Polish reports....
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130
    RobD said:

    The Poles have concluded that their Presidents plane was brought down in Russia by explosions, not pilot error, as the Russians & Polish Prime Minister Tusk's investigations had:

    http://niezalezna.pl/data/TECHNICAL_REPORT.pdf

    The Russians would really assassinate a sitting President? Has there been a third party investigation into the crash?

    Edit: misread your comment. You said it was brought down in Russia, not by Russia. My bad!
    Actually looking at the summary you may have been right the first time.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Has the Lewisham East Labour candidate made any comment on the suspension of the constituency chair?
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    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    It's a salient reminder to factional types that the media don't really bother to distinguish between pro and anti Corbyn people - it's just a "new Labour outrage" story.

    The optimist in me hopes it will teach them (as a faction) a lesson and they will stop doing it themselves.

    The realist in me realises it will probably just be revenge that's gained from it.

    If the point of the on going civil war is to paint one side or the other as this or that because of various comments out of context for some future leadership contest then I suppose that it does have some worth.

    I can feel sorry for the individual involved if he hasn't gleefully jumped on others the same way but in terms of the factions this is a well deserved taste of their own medicine (if he is somewhat innocent)

    It is nice to see some PB Tories willing to find out the context behind some silly comments from a Labour person and an eagerness to find out what they actually meant rather than jumping on the worst possible angle. The cynic in me feels they may have some alterior motive though.

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130

    RobD said:

    The Poles have concluded that their Presidents plane was brought down in Russia by explosions, not pilot error, as the Russians & Polish Prime Minister Tusk's investigations had:

    http://niezalezna.pl/data/TECHNICAL_REPORT.pdf

    The Russians would really assassinate a sitting President? Has there been a third party investigation into the crash?

    Edit: misread your comment. You said it was brought down in Russia, not by Russia. My bad!
    The report doesn't conclude 'who did it' - but since it rubbishes the previous Russian & Polish reports....
    Tusk doesn’t seem to have come out of this very well either.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,025
    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    The Poles have concluded that their Presidents plane was brought down in Russia by explosions, not pilot error, as the Russians & Polish Prime Minister Tusk's investigations had:

    http://niezalezna.pl/data/TECHNICAL_REPORT.pdf

    The Russians would really assassinate a sitting President? Has there been a third party investigation into the crash?

    Edit: misread your comment. You said it was brought down in Russia, not by Russia. My bad!
    The report doesn't conclude 'who did it' - but since it rubbishes the previous Russian & Polish reports....
    Tusk doesn’t seem to have come out of this very well either.
    Isn't this just Poland's version of the 9/11 truther movement, but endorsed by the PiS establishment?
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    @another_richard - Robert Chote and the rest of the OBR are an utter disgrace.

    @DavidL - GDP is difficult to measure, but then I guess that's always the case. I really hope the ONS are playing nicely.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    The Poles have concluded that their Presidents plane was brought down in Russia by explosions, not pilot error, as the Russians & Polish Prime Minister Tusk's investigations had:

    http://niezalezna.pl/data/TECHNICAL_REPORT.pdf

    The Russians would really assassinate a sitting President? Has there been a third party investigation into the crash?

    Edit: misread your comment. You said it was brought down in Russia, not by Russia. My bad!
    The report doesn't conclude 'who did it' - but since it rubbishes the previous Russian & Polish reports....
    Tusk doesn’t seem to have come out of this very well either.
    Isn't this just Poland's version of the 9/11 truther movement, but endorsed by the PiS establishment?
    Hard to judge. Could be. But as a non expert it raises a lot of very specific questions and seems to have some good photographic evidence.

    Putin and his thugs really could be this stupid.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,965
    edited May 2018

    You Anglos

    You Anglos?

    I guess English isn't your first lingo? :lol:
    Get with the patois, man.

    'Noun
    anglo (plural anglos)
    An English person or person of English ancestry.'
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,908
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    RobD said:

    The Poles have concluded that their Presidents plane was brought down in Russia by explosions, not pilot error, as the Russians & Polish Prime Minister Tusk's investigations had:

    http://niezalezna.pl/data/TECHNICAL_REPORT.pdf

    The Russians would really assassinate a sitting President? Has there been a third party investigation into the crash?

    Edit: misread your comment. You said it was brought down in Russia, not by Russia. My bad!
    The report doesn't conclude 'who did it' - but since it rubbishes the previous Russian & Polish reports....
    Tusk doesn’t seem to have come out of this very well either.
    Isn't this just Poland's version of the 9/11 truther movement, but endorsed by the PiS establishment?
    Hard to judge. Could be. But as a non expert it raises a lot of very specific questions and seems to have some good photographic evidence.

    Putin and his thugs really could be this stupid.
    Russia had the motive and capability to bring it down. Normally, it would be impossible to believe a country would commit such a heinous act despite having the motive and capability.

    But this is Putin's Riussia, who time and time again have used evil acts to further their geopolitical aims. You can hardly blame someone for thinking it is likely they did do it. But now, sadly, we'll almost certainly never know for sure.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    The Poles have concluded that their Presidents plane was brought down in Russia by explosions, not pilot error, as the Russians & Polish Prime Minister Tusk's investigations had:

    http://niezalezna.pl/data/TECHNICAL_REPORT.pdf

    I was always very sceptical about the original explanation for the crash.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,908
    AndyJS said:

    The Poles have concluded that their Presidents plane was brought down in Russia by explosions, not pilot error, as the Russians & Polish Prime Minister Tusk's investigations had:

    http://niezalezna.pl/data/TECHNICAL_REPORT.pdf

    I was always very sceptical about the original explanation for the crash.
    Plane crashes are fortunately very rare. Crashes of planes carrying heads of state are very rare - and so they should, given they *should* have the best planes and pilots.

    In fact, the only other occurrence that springs to mind is the shootdown of the plane carrying the Rwandan and Burundi presidents in 1994, which set off the Rwandan genocide.

    Have any other heads of state been killed in plane crashes in modern times?
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,130

    You Anglos

    You Anglos?

    I guess English isn't your first lingo? :lol:
    Get with the patois, man.

    'Noun
    anglo (plural anglos)
    An English person or person of English ancestry.'
    I had a slightly mad woman from Glasgow giving evidence last week in the Court of Session. I asked, “why did she do that?” She replied, “because she was skint”. She peered at me with that ridiculous horse hair on my head, “Do you know what “skint” means?” The judge admitted that was a fair question.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,965
    DavidL said:

    You Anglos

    You Anglos?

    I guess English isn't your first lingo? :lol:
    Get with the patois, man.

    'Noun
    anglo (plural anglos)
    An English person or person of English ancestry.'
    I had a slightly mad woman from Glasgow giving evidence last week in the Court of Session. I asked, “why did she do that?” She replied, “because she was skint”. She peered at me with that ridiculous horse hair on my head, “Do you know what “skint” means?” The judge admitted that was a fair question.
    Fair indeed.
    She could of course have been making a socio-economic point.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    AndyJS said:

    The Poles have concluded that their Presidents plane was brought down in Russia by explosions, not pilot error, as the Russians & Polish Prime Minister Tusk's investigations had:

    http://niezalezna.pl/data/TECHNICAL_REPORT.pdf

    I was always very sceptical about the original explanation for the crash.
    Plane crashes are fortunately very rare. Crashes of planes carrying heads of state are very rare - and so they should, given they *should* have the best planes and pilots.

    In fact, the only other occurrence that springs to mind is the shootdown of the plane carrying the Rwandan and Burundi presidents in 1994, which set off the Rwandan genocide.

    Have any other heads of state been killed in plane crashes in modern times?
    https://tinyurl.com/yc7d3njm
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