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  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,956

    The notion we would have a majority in the Lords or a significant minority in the Commons noisily advocating another referendum is fanciful at best. The best guide for this is what happened after the Lisbon Treaty passed, without the promised referendum. There was no late referendum. It was simply allowed to stand.

    That's why those who hesitated plumped to leave, because they/we feared it was the only opportunity. Any pro-EU vote is carved in stone forever. Any anti-EU voted is ignored or re-run.

    Yeah except the reality is that pro EC/EU vote in 1975 was carved in stone forever wasn’t it.

    Oh wait.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    Mr. Eagles, if we had voted 52% Remain, would you be advocating another referendum in such a short time? Would anyone beyond the most noisy and truculent of Conservative backbenchers?

    If the situation changed such as the EU not honouring Dave's deal.
    They'd have said the situation had changed no matter what. Every utterance from Jean-Claude Juncker would be taken as proof that we need to get out.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    Many GPs are retiring early cos of their pensions and the LTA (see question from Andrew Selous about that at a March PMQ), not so sure about their despair... someone tell Jezza
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    Many GPs are retiring early cos of their pensions and the LTA (see question from Andrew Selous about that at a March PMQ), not so sure about their despair... someone tell Jezza

    I doubt the 6 figure salaries many GPs are on leads to much despair either!
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Good PMQs all round Tezza got back on her feet by the end.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Confirms elections are won and lost in the suburbs.

    Rural areas always lean conservative and urban areas always lean left/liberal
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    I started Westworld and quickly binned it. It was a bit meh.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    twitter.com/jamiewfurlong/status/998932618358947840?s=21

    Those trend lines are not very satisfactory.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited May 2018
    TGOHF said:

    I started Westworld and quickly binned it. It was a bit meh.

    Season 1 was well worth the pay off...Season 2, what a mess. It is looking like it really should have been one of those shows that was just one season.

    Although The Wire was 5 seasons, they got it right when it end, and I think it is part of the reason why it is still held in such high regard. They could have probably milked it for another 2-3 seasons if all they cared about was the $.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,763

    A rerun would only make sense if it were clear that there had been a big shift in public opinion.

    There hasn't been.

    Yougov found 43/44 and 44/45% saying that Brexit was the wrong choice, in its two most recent polls. Survation found that a new referendum would split 50/50. Com Res found 46/43 Leave, and ORB found 49/44 leave. ICM found 51/49 Remain.

    There's no reason to give Remain a second chance out of chivalry.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    Having read the reviews, I'm not even bothering with the second series.
    Loads of better stuff out there.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Eagles, the EU didn't exist in 1975.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Nigelb said:

    Having read the reviews, I'm not even bothering with the second series.
    Loads of better stuff out there.
    Have to say been disappointed with all the big spring releases so far, Westworld, Billions, Silicon Valley, all been inferior to previous seasons.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557

    Mr. Topping, this is a British website, with British time. We'll have no antipodean chronographics here!

    Ironically this website is run on an American server with a comment system based in Canada.

    PB’s tech support, aka Robert, is also based in America

    This Bank Holiday weekend will see threads written and published in France, Spain, Ukraine, and Germany.

    PB is clearly run by the Liberal Metropolitan Elite.
    Citizens of everywhere...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited May 2018

    HYUFD said:



    The only possible exception to that is if somehow we could stay in the Single Market but with new controls on free movement for the UK to reflect the transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 the EU allowed us to have for 7 years but Blair refused to take

    Good to see that you are watering down your definition of 'ending free movement' - a few days ago you were talking about work permits, now you are talking about 'transitional controls'. Next week you will just fall back on playing 'Land of Hope an Glory' at immigration at Heathrow.

    Yep, the Tory sellout on Brexit is well on its way....
    If you remember I did vote Remain but clearly Leave won and mainly because of Blair's failure to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 in my view.

    Work permits is still the most likely outcome but getting equivalents of the transition controls Blair should have taken in 2004 would be an acceptable compromise for me
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:



    The only possible exception to that is if somehow we could stay in the Single Market but with new controls on free movement for the UK to reflect the transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 the EU allowed us to have for 7 years but Blair refused to take

    Good to see that you are watering down your definition of 'ending free movement' - a few days ago you were talking about work permits, now you are talking about 'transitional controls'. Next week you will just fall back on playing 'Land of Hope an Glory' at immigration at Heathrow.

    Yep, the Tory sellout on Brexit is well on its way....
    Also this proposal is misleading to say the least. There is nothing stopping UK imposing transitional controls when Serbia, Bosnia etc join the EU, as we did for Romania and Bulgaria. So I presume HYUFD means retrospective controls imposed on Poland and the other members which joined in 2004. I can assure him that the chance of the EU agreeing to that is absolutely zero. Also pretty ineffective unless it also affected those immigrants already here.
    Why? France, Germany etc ALL imposed those transition controls for 7 years so it would not compromise the core principles of the single market.

    There are also stil plenty of Poles, Czechs etc who still want to come here and with free movement without controls we have had no control over the number we admit
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Mr. Topping, this is a British website, with British time. We'll have no antipodean chronographics here!

    Ironically this website is run on an American server with a comment system based in Canada.

    PB’s tech support, aka Robert, is also based in America

    This Bank Holiday weekend will see threads written and published in France, Spain, Ukraine, and Germany.

    PB is clearly run by the Liberal Metropolitan Elite.
    My schedule over the next 10 days is

    London-Sao Paolo-London-New York-London-Lenaxa-Toronto-London

    Even for me that’s a little nuts
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704

    TGOHF said:

    I started Westworld and quickly binned it. It was a bit meh.

    Season 1 was well worth the pay off...Season 2, what a mess. It is looking like it really should have been one of those shows that was just one season.

    Although The Wire was 5 seasons, they got it right when it end, and I think it is part of the reason why it is still held in such high regard. They could have probably milked it for another 2-3 seasons if all they cared about was the $.
    Hmm i've been saving them up on my Sky Box to binge them, but I've not been drawn to 'must watch them'.

    Maybe i won't bother
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,956
    Charles said:

    Mr. Topping, this is a British website, with British time. We'll have no antipodean chronographics here!

    Ironically this website is run on an American server with a comment system based in Canada.

    PB’s tech support, aka Robert, is also based in America

    This Bank Holiday weekend will see threads written and published in France, Spain, Ukraine, and Germany.

    PB is clearly run by the Liberal Metropolitan Elite.
    My schedule over the next 10 days is

    London-Sao Paolo-London-New York-London-Lenaxa-Toronto-London

    Even for me that’s a little nuts
    I hope you’re offsetting your carbon footprint.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Sean_F said:


    A rerun would only make sense if it were clear that there had been a big shift in public opinion.

    There hasn't been.

    Yougov found 43/44 and 44/45% saying that Brexit was the wrong choice, in its two most recent polls. Survation found that a new referendum would split 50/50. Com Res found 46/43 Leave, and ORB found 49/44 leave. ICM found 51/49 Remain.

    There's no reason to give Remain a second chance out of chivalry.

    I agree. I think a WTO Brexit is becoming a requirement.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    The only possible exception to that is if somehow we could stay in the Single Market but with new controls on free movement for the UK to reflect the transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 the EU allowed us to have for 7 years but Blair refused to take

    Good to see that you are watering down your definition of 'ending free movement' - a few days ago you were talking about work permits, now you are talking about 'transitional controls'. Next week you will just fall back on playing 'Land of Hope an Glory' at immigration at Heathrow.

    Yep, the Tory sellout on Brexit is well on its way....
    If you remember I did vote Remain but clearly Leave won and mainly because of Blair's failure to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 in my view.

    Work permits is still the most likely outcome but getting equivalents of the transition controls Blair should have taken in 2004 would be an acceptable compromise for me
    That's fanciful to say the least.

    The referendum happened five years after the transition controls would have expired.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    edited May 2018

    Nigelb said:

    Did anyone hear the questioning of Caroline Nokes by the NI select committee ?
    Embarrassing ignorance from a minister five months in post, on what is a highly pertinent issue.

    Mind you, her refusal to sound embarrassed about it was almost impressive.
    If her grasp of detail is replicated across government, it's little wonder we're having problems coming up with Brexit border solutions...
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    Mr. Eagles, the EU didn't exist in 1975.

    The Paris summit of 1972 which we attended and signed up to set the goal of moving to a European Union including a single currency. It wasn't sprung on people after we joined.

    https://www.cvce.eu/content/publication/1999/1/1/b1dd3d57-5f31-4796-85c3-cfd2210d6901/publishable_en.pdf
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    Charles said:

    Mr. Topping, this is a British website, with British time. We'll have no antipodean chronographics here!

    Ironically this website is run on an American server with a comment system based in Canada.

    PB’s tech support, aka Robert, is also based in America

    This Bank Holiday weekend will see threads written and published in France, Spain, Ukraine, and Germany.

    PB is clearly run by the Liberal Metropolitan Elite.
    My schedule over the next 10 days is

    London-Sao Paolo-London-New York-London-Lenaxa-Toronto-London

    Even for me that’s a little nuts
    What is the pressing need to be in London so much ?
  • Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,793

    The notion we would have a majority in the Lords or a significant minority in the Commons noisily advocating another referendum is fanciful at best. The best guide for this is what happened after the Lisbon Treaty passed, without the promised referendum. There was no late referendum. It was simply allowed to stand.

    That's why those who hesitated plumped to leave, because they/we feared it was the only opportunity. Any pro-EU vote is carved in stone forever. Any anti-EU voted is ignored or re-run.

    I believe the question wasn't whether they would or wouldn't, but whether they should or shouldn't.

    If the deal on which the side that won the referendum was to turn out different from what was voted on, is it justifiable to ask for a further vote on the deal as it turned out?

    We can decry whether or not certain individuals or institutions would or would not have called for it if circumstances were different, but I thought the discussion was on whether they should or shouldn't.

    (I may have got hold of the wrong end of the stick; I've reasonably often been guilty of such)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Glenn, the people then were not voting in the knowledge of powers being thrown from Westminster to Brussels, or seeing the level of integration that would occur. When they voted knowing that, they voted to leave despite the preponderance of political power clearly advocating the status quo.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Pulpstar said:

    Charles said:

    Mr. Topping, this is a British website, with British time. We'll have no antipodean chronographics here!

    Ironically this website is run on an American server with a comment system based in Canada.

    PB’s tech support, aka Robert, is also based in America

    This Bank Holiday weekend will see threads written and published in France, Spain, Ukraine, and Germany.

    PB is clearly run by the Liberal Metropolitan Elite.
    My schedule over the next 10 days is

    London-Sao Paolo-London-New York-London-Lenaxa-Toronto-London

    Even for me that’s a little nuts
    What is the pressing need to be in London so much ?
    Lewisham East by-election
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    edited May 2018
    Boris should be handed at the taxpayer's expense a MiG 31 Firefox, a supersonic Soviet fighter piloted by mind control.

    I'll leave other PBers to decide whether he would rise to the occasion or crash and burn.


    http://craigthomascompanion.co.uk/2firefox.html
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Nigelb said:

    Having read the reviews, I'm not even bothering with the second series.
    Loads of better stuff out there.
    The big problem with pretty much all US mega series is that they overstay their welcome.

    I have learned the Big Little Lies has been slate for a second season, despite having no second novel on which to base the screenplay.

    As the first series was perfect, the only way is down.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited May 2018

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:



    The only possible exception to that is if somehow we could stay in the Single Market but with new controls on free movement for the UK to reflect the transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 the EU allowed us to have for 7 years but Blair refused to take

    Good to see that you are watering down your definition of 'ending free movement' - a few days ago you were talking about work permits, now you are talking about 'transitional controls'. Next week you will just fall back on playing 'Land of Hope an Glory' at immigration at Heathrow.

    Yep, the Tory sellout on Brexit is well on its way....
    If you remember I did vote Remain but clearly Leave won and mainly because of Blair's failure to impose transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 in my view.

    Work permits is still the most likely outcome but getting equivalents of the transition controls Blair should have taken in 2004 would be an acceptable compromise for me
    That's fanciful to say the least.

    The referendum happened five years after the transition controls would have expired.
    So what? By then the damage had already been done and at least when they expired that would also apply to France and Germany etc. From 2004 to 2011 we were seen as a soft touch for Eastern European migrants as we were the only major EU nation without transition controls on free movement which is why so many came here over and above our proportionate share
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    Anazina said:

    Boris should be handed at the taxpayer's expense a MiG 31 Firefox, a supersonic Soviet fighter piloted by mind control.

    I'll leave other PBers to decide whether he would rise to the occasion or crash and burn.


    http://craigthomascompanion.co.uk/2firefox.html

    The reporting name for the 31 is Foxhound.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pulpstar said:

    Charles said:

    Mr. Topping, this is a British website, with British time. We'll have no antipodean chronographics here!

    Ironically this website is run on an American server with a comment system based in Canada.

    PB’s tech support, aka Robert, is also based in America

    This Bank Holiday weekend will see threads written and published in France, Spain, Ukraine, and Germany.

    PB is clearly run by the Liberal Metropolitan Elite.
    My schedule over the next 10 days is

    London-Sao Paolo-London-New York-London-Lenaxa-Toronto-London

    Even for me that’s a little nuts
    What is the pressing need to be in London so much ?
    It’s where my family is.

    They leave for California mid June so already have a long chunk of the summer without them
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, I think I agree with Pulpstar. An additional consideration: if the Lib Dems get a bandwagon rolling on making this a referendum on Brexit, the Conservatives will have the (admittedly not huge) Leave vote all to themselves.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    Mr. Glenn, the people then were not voting in the knowledge of powers being thrown from Westminster to Brussels, or seeing the level of integration that would occur. When they voted knowing that, they voted to leave despite the preponderance of political power clearly advocating the status quo.

    Yesterday you declined to comment on Hague’s 2001 election debacle because it was before your political consciousness, yet you claim full knowledge of what people were thinking about Europe in 1975?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,956
    What a complete dump.

    Oxford University has apologised to David Lammy after retweeting a post labelling his criticism "bitter".

    The original tweet, sent by a student, was in response to the Labour MP saying Oxford was "a bastion of white, middle class, southern privilege".

    Mr Lammy asked if the tweet represented the university's official position - at which point a senior staff member apologised and took responsibility.

    Just 11% of last year's undergraduates were from disadvantaged backgrounds.

    Oxford's director of public affairs, Ceri Thomas, said Mr Lammy's comments showed "no sign of bitterness" and there was "work to do" to improve diversity among students.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44221469
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Dura_Ace said:

    Anazina said:

    Boris should be handed at the taxpayer's expense a MiG 31 Firefox, a supersonic Soviet fighter piloted by mind control.

    I'll leave other PBers to decide whether he would rise to the occasion or crash and burn.


    http://craigthomascompanion.co.uk/2firefox.html

    The reporting name for the 31 is Foxhound.
    For the real aircraft, yes. But Craig Thomas wrote Firefox before the real MiG 31 existed, so the fictional plane now shares its name with a real fighter.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    What a complete dump.

    Oxford University has apologised to David Lammy after retweeting a post labelling his criticism "bitter".

    The original tweet, sent by a student, was in response to the Labour MP saying Oxford was "a bastion of white, middle class, southern privilege".

    Mr Lammy asked if the tweet represented the university's official position - at which point a senior staff member apologised and took responsibility.

    Just 11% of last year's undergraduates were from disadvantaged backgrounds.

    Oxford's director of public affairs, Ceri Thomas, said Mr Lammy's comments showed "no sign of bitterness" and there was "work to do" to improve diversity among students.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44221469

    How many with the Oxbridge admissions criteria of 3 A grades, including some A*s, came from disadvantaged backgrounds?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Did anyone hear the questioning of Caroline Nokes by the NI select committee ?
    Embarrassing ignorance from a minister five months in post, on what is a highly pertinent issue.

    Mind you, her refusal to sound embarrassed about it was almost impressive.
    If her grasp of detail is replicated across government, it's little wonder we're having problems coming up with Brexit border solutions...
    Her poor grasp of detail is replicated across government, as we saw with Amber Rudd at the Home Office. Low hanging fruit amongst the Brexit ministers is left as an exercise for the reader.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Anazina said:

    Nigelb said:

    Having read the reviews, I'm not even bothering with the second series.
    Loads of better stuff out there.
    The big problem with pretty much all US mega series is that they overstay their welcome.

    I have learned the Big Little Lies has been slate for a second season, despite having no second novel on which to base the screenplay.

    As the first series was perfect, the only way is down.
    13 Reasons Why and Handmaid's Tale are in similar boat.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    edited May 2018

    Mr. Eagles, the EU didn't exist in 1975.

    The Paris summit of 1972 which we attended and signed up to set the goal of moving to a European Union including a single currency. It wasn't sprung on people after we joined.

    https://www.cvce.eu/content/publication/1999/1/1/b1dd3d57-5f31-4796-85c3-cfd2210d6901/publishable_en.pdf
    I was in junior school. Think I needed a say myself on it all by the time I was in my fifties. Of course had the Constitution/Lisbon vote not been blatantly, in your face, reneged on, I might not have concentrated on it so hard, and had the feeling it was the one and only time ever I was going to be given a direct say.


    That said, the Lisbon Treaty would’ve sunk like a stone, in my view, had it been put to a vote, so we wouldn’t have been where we were in 2015/16 anyway.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Mr. Glenn, the people then were not voting in the knowledge of powers being thrown from Westminster to Brussels, or seeing the level of integration that would occur. When they voted knowing that, they voted to leave despite the preponderance of political power clearly advocating the status quo.

    Yesterday you declined to comment on Hague’s 2001 election debacle because it was before your political consciousness, yet you claim full knowledge of what people were thinking about Europe in 1975?
    We see this sort of thing so often from pb Tories. The Conservative referendum is sacrosanct. Labour's 1975 referendum is for the birds. ;)
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    Anazina said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Anazina said:

    Boris should be handed at the taxpayer's expense a MiG 31 Firefox, a supersonic Soviet fighter piloted by mind control.

    I'll leave other PBers to decide whether he would rise to the occasion or crash and burn.


    http://craigthomascompanion.co.uk/2firefox.html

    The reporting name for the 31 is Foxhound.
    For the real aircraft, yes. But Craig Thomas wrote Firefox before the real MiG 31 existed, so the fictional plane now shares its name with a real fighter.
    I'd never heard of that book. I assume it's fucking terrible.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    welshowl said:

    Mr. Eagles, the EU didn't exist in 1975.

    The Paris summit of 1972 which we attended and signed up to set the goal of moving to a European Union including a single currency. It wasn't sprung on people after we joined.

    https://www.cvce.eu/content/publication/1999/1/1/b1dd3d57-5f31-4796-85c3-cfd2210d6901/publishable_en.pdf
    I was in junior school. Think I needed a say myself on it all by the time I was in my fifties. Of course had the Constitution/Lisbon vote not been blatantly, in your face, reneged on, I might not have concentrated on it so hard, and had the feeling it was the one and only time ever I was going to be given a direct say.


    That said, the Lisbon Treaty would’ve sunk like a stone, in my view, had it been put to a vote, so we wouldn’t have been where we were in 2015/16 anyway.
    I think that is the core of it all. That's when the pressure mounted for what it seemed a denied referendum. Cameron locked himself into a Referendum.No iffs not butts. (it was of course in the context of the lisbon treaty in what appeared like a General Election was in the offing). From that point onwards a referendum was inevitable in some guise.

    Of course a referendum on the treaty would have just meant no new treaty, not us exiting the EU.

    I do remember Nick Palmer on here expressing his humour about how the Government had outplayed the Tories and what are they going to do now (snigger) now they had promised a vote.

    Brexit is at their doorsteps.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    Dura_Ace said:

    Anazina said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Anazina said:

    Boris should be handed at the taxpayer's expense a MiG 31 Firefox, a supersonic Soviet fighter piloted by mind control.

    I'll leave other PBers to decide whether he would rise to the occasion or crash and burn.


    http://craigthomascompanion.co.uk/2firefox.html

    The reporting name for the 31 is Foxhound.
    For the real aircraft, yes. But Craig Thomas wrote Firefox before the real MiG 31 existed, so the fictional plane now shares its name with a real fighter.
    I'd never heard of that book. I assume it's fucking terrible.
    There was a movie too,with Clint Eastwood. I never read the book but the movie was indeed fucking terrible.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    Dura_Ace said:

    Anazina said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Anazina said:

    Boris should be handed at the taxpayer's expense a MiG 31 Firefox, a supersonic Soviet fighter piloted by mind control.

    I'll leave other PBers to decide whether he would rise to the occasion or crash and burn.


    http://craigthomascompanion.co.uk/2firefox.html

    The reporting name for the 31 is Foxhound.
    For the real aircraft, yes. But Craig Thomas wrote Firefox before the real MiG 31 existed, so the fictional plane now shares its name with a real fighter.
    I'd never heard of that book. I assume it's fucking terrible.
    It was. The Eastwood movie was, if anything, worse.

    Ancient history, though.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401

    Mr. Glenn, the people then were not voting in the knowledge of powers being thrown from Westminster to Brussels, or seeing the level of integration that would occur. When they voted knowing that, they voted to leave despite the preponderance of political power clearly advocating the status quo.

    Yesterday you declined to comment on Hague’s 2001 election debacle because it was before your political consciousness, yet you claim full knowledge of what people were thinking about Europe in 1975?
    In the context of its time, Hague did not have a bad election. He:

    1. Created a united party, including on its European policy - which given the 30 years since the mid-1980s was no small achievement, particularly as he didn't have the authority of victory to help him.

    2. Took the Euro off the table as an issue. He failed to win the election (by a long way) but Blair never again took seriously the policy of joining the single currency.

    3. Did better than the pre-election polls suggested. Going by the polling in 2000, Labour and the Lib Dems looked to be heading towards depriving the Tories of even more seats. In fact, though the LDs did make more gains, Hague held the Tory total steady at a time when the tide was still strongly with Labour and its allies. A core-vote defensive strategy is never exciting but sometimes it's necessary and that was one such time.

    On top of which, Hague's leadership is often underrated because his internal reforms are underappreciated. By dragging the Party's organisational and personnel structures out of the 1950s, he laid the foundations for Cameron's wins.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    OT I'm seeing a pb advert for a bitcoin operation which claims endorsement from the most unlikely celebrities. It may be the advert restrictions need to be tuned again.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Mr. Glenn, the people then were not voting in the knowledge of powers being thrown from Westminster to Brussels, or seeing the level of integration that would occur. When they voted knowing that, they voted to leave despite the preponderance of political power clearly advocating the status quo.

    Yesterday you declined to comment on Hague’s 2001 election debacle because it was before your political consciousness, yet you claim full knowledge of what people were thinking about Europe in 1975?
    In the context of its time, Hague did not have a bad election. He:

    1. Created a united party, including on its European policy - which given the 30 years since the mid-1980s was no small achievement, particularly as he didn't have the authority of victory to help him.

    2. Took the Euro off the table as an issue. He failed to win the election (by a long way) but Blair never again took seriously the policy of joining the single currency.

    3. Did better than the pre-election polls suggested. Going by the polling in 2000, Labour and the Lib Dems looked to be heading towards depriving the Tories of even more seats. In fact, though the LDs did make more gains, Hague held the Tory total steady at a time when the tide was still strongly with Labour and its allies. A core-vote defensive strategy is never exciting but sometimes it's necessary and that was one such time.

    On top of which, Hague's leadership is often underrated because his internal reforms are underappreciated. By dragging the Party's organisational and personnel structures out of the 1950s, he laid the foundations for Cameron's wins.
    Hague did not take the Euro issue off the table. Gordon Brown did -- and before 2001 so why Hague based an election campaign on it is beyond my ken.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841

    OT I'm seeing a pb advert for a bitcoin operation which claims endorsement from the most unlikely celebrities. It may be the advert restrictions need to be tuned again.

    Peter Jones can't believe how much it has risen.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Scott_P said:
    He also got a thanks from someone or other (non-Tory).
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    Mr. Glenn, the people then were not voting in the knowledge of powers being thrown from Westminster to Brussels, or seeing the level of integration that would occur. When they voted knowing that, they voted to leave despite the preponderance of political power clearly advocating the status quo.

    Yesterday you declined to comment on Hague’s 2001 election debacle because it was before your political consciousness, yet you claim full knowledge of what people were thinking about Europe in 1975?
    In the context of its time, Hague did not have a bad election. He:

    1. Created a united party, including on its European policy - which given the 30 years since the mid-1980s was no small achievement, particularly as he didn't have the authority of victory to help him.

    2. Took the Euro off the table as an issue. He failed to win the election (by a long way) but Blair never again took seriously the policy of joining the single currency.

    3. Did better than the pre-election polls suggested. Going by the polling in 2000, Labour and the Lib Dems looked to be heading towards depriving the Tories of even more seats. In fact, though the LDs did make more gains, Hague held the Tory total steady at a time when the tide was still strongly with Labour and its allies. A core-vote defensive strategy is never exciting but sometimes it's necessary and that was one such time.

    On top of which, Hague's leadership is often underrated because his internal reforms are underappreciated. By dragging the Party's organisational and personnel structures out of the 1950s, he laid the foundations for Cameron's wins.
    Hague did not take the Euro issue off the table. Gordon Brown did -- and before 2001 so why Hague based an election campaign on it is beyond my ken.
    It also clearly wasn't seen as off the table within the Tory party as the issue was a key factor in IDS beating Ken Clarke in the subsequent leadership election.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    notme said:

    welshowl said:

    Mr. Eagles, the EU didn't exist in 1975.

    The Paris summit of 1972 which we attended and signed up to set the goal of moving to a European Union including a single currency. It wasn't sprung on people after we joined.

    https://www.cvce.eu/content/publication/1999/1/1/b1dd3d57-5f31-4796-85c3-cfd2210d6901/publishable_en.pdf
    I was in junior school. Think I needed a say myself on it all by the time I was in my fifties. Of course had the Constitution/Lisbon vote not been blatantly, in your face, reneged on, I might not have concentrated on it so hard, and had the feeling it was the one and only time ever I was going to be given a direct say.


    That said, the Lisbon Treaty would’ve sunk like a stone, in my view, had it been put to a vote, so we wouldn’t have been where we were in 2015/16 anyway.
    I think that is the core of it all. That's when the pressure mounted for what it seemed a denied referendum. Cameron locked himself into a Referendum.No iffs not butts. (it was of course in the context of the lisbon treaty in what appeared like a General Election was in the offing). From that point onwards a referendum was inevitable in some guise.

    Of course a referendum on the treaty would have just meant no new treaty, not us exiting the EU.

    I do remember Nick Palmer on here expressing his humour about how the Government had outplayed the Tories and what are they going to do now (snigger) now they had promised a vote.

    Brexit is at their doorsteps.
    Quite. Now of course we are into “what iffery”, and maybe not much would’ve changed if we had voted no (probably more opt outs for us as our hand on the brake as 27 others wanted to go on would’ve been good leverage), but a vote would’ve been had. I wouldn’t have had ministers sneering patronisingly at me from the TV that it was all “a tidying up exercise”. The boil might've been lanced for a generation.

    However, they ran from the voters’ verdict blatantly, and I’m sure the nuances of it being a “Treaty not a Constitution and look a couple of words in paragraph 127c are different really”, rightly fooled nobody. They effectively doubled down on the bet and said “ there, the only way out now is to go the whole hog, and you haven’t got the balls to do that. Have you?”.

    You can’t fool all the people all the time. If you want ever closer union, fine, campaign for it openly not by stealth, using the dark political arts. That applies to the Commission more than anyone else too.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,763

    What a complete dump.

    Oxford University has apologised to David Lammy after retweeting a post labelling his criticism "bitter".

    The original tweet, sent by a student, was in response to the Labour MP saying Oxford was "a bastion of white, middle class, southern privilege".

    Mr Lammy asked if the tweet represented the university's official position - at which point a senior staff member apologised and took responsibility.

    Just 11% of last year's undergraduates were from disadvantaged backgrounds.

    Oxford's director of public affairs, Ceri Thomas, said Mr Lammy's comments showed "no sign of bitterness" and there was "work to do" to improve diversity among students.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44221469

    What's there to apologise for? The student was expressing his own opinion, not speaking on behalf of the University.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557

    What a complete dump....

    If that were the case, why would everyone be so anxious about who gets in ?

    Its admissions policies are indeed deeply questionable - after all, they let me in at one point.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786
    A united party? He even managed to foment a rebellion against his campaign to "keep the pound" from people who wanted to keep the pound.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1330067/Conservatives-rebel-over-policy-on-euro.html

    13 May 2001

    WILLIAM HAGUE was facing a new rebellion over Europe last night as it emerged that dozens of Conservative candidates are defying party policy by saying that they will never vote for Britain to enter the single currency.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    welshowl said:

    notme said:

    welshowl said:

    Mr. Eagles, the EU didn't exist in 1975.

    The Paris summit of 1972 which we attended and signed up to set the goal of moving to a European Union including a single currency. It wasn't sprung on people after we joined.

    https://www.cvce.eu/content/publication/1999/1/1/b1dd3d57-5f31-4796-85c3-cfd2210d6901/publishable_en.pdf
    I was in junior school. Think I needed a say myself on it all by the time I was in my fifties. Of course had the Constitution/Lisbon vote not been blatantly, in your face, reneged on, I might not have concentrated on it so hard, and had the feeling it was the one and only time ever I was going to be given a direct say.


    That said, the Lisbon Treaty would’ve sunk like a stone, in my view, had it been put to a vote, so we wouldn’t have been where we were in 2015/16 anyway.
    I think that is the core of it all. That's when the pressure mounted for what it seemed a denied referendum. Cameron locked himself into a Referendum.No iffs not butts. (it was of course in the context of the lisbon treaty in what appeared like a General Election was in the offing). From that point onwards a referendum was inevitable in some guise.

    Of course a referendum on the treaty would have just meant no new treaty, not us exiting the EU.

    I do remember Nick Palmer on here expressing his humour about how the Government had outplayed the Tories and what are they going to do now (snigger) now they had promised a vote.

    Brexit is at their doorsteps.
    Quite. Now of course we are into “what iffery”, and maybe not much would’ve changed if we had voted no (probably more opt outs for us as our hand on the brake as 27 others wanted to go on would’ve been good leverage), but a vote would’ve been had. I wouldn’t have had ministers sneering patronisingly at me from the TV that it was all “a tidying up exercise”. The boil might've been lanced for a generation.

    However, they ran from the voters’ verdict blatantly, and I’m sure the nuances of it being a “Treaty not a Constitution and look a couple of words in paragraph 127c are different really”, rightly fooled nobody. They effectively doubled down on the bet and said “ there, the only way out now is to go the whole hog, and you haven’t got the balls to do that. Have you?”.

    You can’t fool all the people all the time. If you want ever closer union, fine, campaign for it openly not by stealth, using the dark political arts. That applies to the Commission more than anyone else too.
    “a tidying up exercise”

    And the Minister who said that was subsequently convicted of fraud and spent time in jail....
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Sean_F said:

    What a complete dump.

    Oxford University has apologised to David Lammy after retweeting a post labelling his criticism "bitter".

    The original tweet, sent by a student, was in response to the Labour MP saying Oxford was "a bastion of white, middle class, southern privilege".

    Mr Lammy asked if the tweet represented the university's official position - at which point a senior staff member apologised and took responsibility.

    Just 11% of last year's undergraduates were from disadvantaged backgrounds.

    Oxford's director of public affairs, Ceri Thomas, said Mr Lammy's comments showed "no sign of bitterness" and there was "work to do" to improve diversity among students.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44221469

    What's there to apologise for? The student was expressing his own opinion, not speaking on behalf of the University.
    Aren't they apologising for retweeting it - not for the student Tweeting it in the first place?
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Dura_Ace said:

    Anazina said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Anazina said:

    Boris should be handed at the taxpayer's expense a MiG 31 Firefox, a supersonic Soviet fighter piloted by mind control.

    I'll leave other PBers to decide whether he would rise to the occasion or crash and burn.


    http://craigthomascompanion.co.uk/2firefox.html

    The reporting name for the 31 is Foxhound.
    For the real aircraft, yes. But Craig Thomas wrote Firefox before the real MiG 31 existed, so the fictional plane now shares its name with a real fighter.
    I'd never heard of that book. I assume it's fucking terrible.
    It was a Clint Eastwood movie i believe..
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,956
    edited May 2018
    Sean_F said:

    What a complete dump.

    Oxford University has apologised to David Lammy after retweeting a post labelling his criticism "bitter".

    The original tweet, sent by a student, was in response to the Labour MP saying Oxford was "a bastion of white, middle class, southern privilege".

    Mr Lammy asked if the tweet represented the university's official position - at which point a senior staff member apologised and took responsibility.

    Just 11% of last year's undergraduates were from disadvantaged backgrounds.

    Oxford's director of public affairs, Ceri Thomas, said Mr Lammy's comments showed "no sign of bitterness" and there was "work to do" to improve diversity among students.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44221469

    What's there to apologise for? The student was expressing his own opinion, not speaking on behalf of the University.
    That the University retweeted it so people think they were endorsing the view that Lammy is bitter.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Anazina said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Anazina said:

    Boris should be handed at the taxpayer's expense a MiG 31 Firefox, a supersonic Soviet fighter piloted by mind control.

    I'll leave other PBers to decide whether he would rise to the occasion or crash and burn.


    http://craigthomascompanion.co.uk/2firefox.html

    The reporting name for the 31 is Foxhound.
    For the real aircraft, yes. But Craig Thomas wrote Firefox before the real MiG 31 existed, so the fictional plane now shares its name with a real fighter.
    I'd never heard of that book. I assume it's fucking terrible.
    It was. The Eastwood movie was, if anything, worse.

    Ancient history, though.
    I read it when I was about 11-years-old so I can't remember the quality and, at that age, would not have been the best critic in any case.

    But the plot device was quite neat – the Americans have to infiltrate a Soviet air base then steal their state-of-the-art new MiG so they can copy it.

    It is true that the film of the same name certainly has not stood the test of time.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401

    Mr. Glenn, the people then were not voting in the knowledge of powers being thrown from Westminster to Brussels, or seeing the level of integration that would occur. When they voted knowing that, they voted to leave despite the preponderance of political power clearly advocating the status quo.

    Yesterday you declined to comment on Hague’s 2001 election debacle because it was before your political consciousness, yet you claim full knowledge of what people were thinking about Europe in 1975?
    In the context of its time, Hague did not have a bad election. He:

    1. Created a united party, including on its European policy - which given the 30 years since the mid-1980s was no small achievement, particularly as he didn't have the authority of victory to help him.

    2. Took the Euro off the table as an issue. He failed to win the election (by a long way) but Blair never again took seriously the policy of joining the single currency.

    3. Did better than the pre-election polls suggested. Going by the polling in 2000, Labour and the Lib Dems looked to be heading towards depriving the Tories of even more seats. In fact, though the LDs did make more gains, Hague held the Tory total steady at a time when the tide was still strongly with Labour and its allies. A core-vote defensive strategy is never exciting but sometimes it's necessary and that was one such time.

    On top of which, Hague's leadership is often underrated because his internal reforms are underappreciated. By dragging the Party's organisational and personnel structures out of the 1950s, he laid the foundations for Cameron's wins.
    Hague did not take the Euro issue off the table. Gordon Brown did -- and before 2001 so why Hague based an election campaign on it is beyond my ken.
    Brown left the option open, though he did his best to reserve it to himself. The 'five tests' were subjective and could easily be reassessed as the political climate changed.

    Hague campaigned on 'Keep the Pound' because it was a solid, positive message that almost entirely united his party, and which had substantial support in the country.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Blimey 13 Reasons Why is now getting mention on PB? Whatever next....
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Delegates registering for the event are being given the option to register as male or female. A pop-up “gender statement” on the party’s web form explains: “gender must match your passport for the necessary security checks”.

    https://order-order.com/2018/05/23/labour-conference-delegates-cant-self-identify/

    Dave, who is only a woman on Wednesday, will have to go as a man.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,786

    Mr. Glenn, the people then were not voting in the knowledge of powers being thrown from Westminster to Brussels, or seeing the level of integration that would occur. When they voted knowing that, they voted to leave despite the preponderance of political power clearly advocating the status quo.

    Yesterday you declined to comment on Hague’s 2001 election debacle because it was before your political consciousness, yet you claim full knowledge of what people were thinking about Europe in 1975?
    In the context of its time, Hague did not have a bad election. He:

    1. Created a united party, including on its European policy - which given the 30 years since the mid-1980s was no small achievement, particularly as he didn't have the authority of victory to help him.

    2. Took the Euro off the table as an issue. He failed to win the election (by a long way) but Blair never again took seriously the policy of joining the single currency.

    3. Did better than the pre-election polls suggested. Going by the polling in 2000, Labour and the Lib Dems looked to be heading towards depriving the Tories of even more seats. In fact, though the LDs did make more gains, Hague held the Tory total steady at a time when the tide was still strongly with Labour and its allies. A core-vote defensive strategy is never exciting but sometimes it's necessary and that was one such time.

    On top of which, Hague's leadership is often underrated because his internal reforms are underappreciated. By dragging the Party's organisational and personnel structures out of the 1950s, he laid the foundations for Cameron's wins.
    Hague did not take the Euro issue off the table. Gordon Brown did -- and before 2001 so why Hague based an election campaign on it is beyond my ken.
    Brown left the option open, though he did his best to reserve it to himself. The 'five tests' were subjective and could easily be reassessed as the political climate changed.

    Hague campaigned on 'Keep the Pound' because it was a solid, positive message that almost entirely united his party, and which had substantial support in the country.
    Labour were however committed to a referendum. Hague's policy amounted to saying, "We don't trust people to vote the right way on the Euro so we definitely won't give them the choice."
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    notme said:

    welshowl said:

    notme said:

    welshowl said:

    Mr. Eagles, the EU didn't exist in 1975.

    The Paris summit of 1972 which we attended and signed up to set the goal of moving to a European Union including a single currency. It wasn't sprung on people after we joined.

    https://www.cvce.eu/content/publication/1999/1/1/b1dd3d57-5f31-4796-85c3-cfd2210d6901/publishable_en.pdf
    I was in junior school. Think I needed a say myself on it all by the time I was in my fifties. Of course had the Constitution/Lisbon vote not been blatantly, in your face, reneged on, I might not have concentrated on it so hard, and had the feeling it was the one and only time ever I was going to be given a direct say.


    That said, the Lisbon Treaty would’ve sunk like a stone, in my view, had it been put to a vote, so we wouldn’t have been where we were in 2015/16 anyway.
    I think that is the core of it all. That's when the pressure mounted for what it seemed a denied referendum. Cameron locked himself into a Referendum.No iffs not butts. (it was of course in the context of the lisbon treaty in what appeared like a General Election was in the offing). From that point onwards a referendum was inevitable in some guise.

    Of course a referendum on the treaty would have just meant no new treaty, not us exiting the EU.

    I do remember Nick Palmer on here expressing his humour about how the Government had outplayed the Tories and what are they going to do now (snigger) now they had promised a vote.

    Brexit is at their doorsteps.
    Quite. Now of course we are into “what iffery”, and maybe not much would’ve changed if we had voted no (probably more opt outs for us as our hand on the brake as 27 others wanted to go on would’ve been good leverage), but a vote would’ve been had. I wouldn’t have had ministers sneering patronisingly at me from the TV that it was all “a tidying up exercise”. The boil might've been lanced for a generation.

    However, they ran from the voters’ verdict blatantly, and I’m sure the nuances of it being a “Treaty not a Constitution and look a couple of words in paragraph 127c are different really”, rightly fooled nobody. They effectively doubled down on the bet and said “ there, the only way out now is to go the whole hog, and you haven’t got the balls to do that. Have you?”.

    You can’t fool all the people all the time. If you want ever closer union, fine, campaign for it openly not by stealth, using the dark political arts. That applies to the Commission more than anyone else too.
    “a tidying up exercise”

    And the Minister who said that was subsequently convicted of fraud and spent time in jail....
    Who was it? Can’t remember!
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Charles said:

    Mr. Topping, this is a British website, with British time. We'll have no antipodean chronographics here!

    Ironically this website is run on an American server with a comment system based in Canada.

    PB’s tech support, aka Robert, is also based in America

    This Bank Holiday weekend will see threads written and published in France, Spain, Ukraine, and Germany.

    PB is clearly run by the Liberal Metropolitan Elite.
    My schedule over the next 10 days is

    London-Sao Paolo-London-New York-London-Lenaxa-Toronto-London

    Even for me that’s a little nuts
    That Gold-For-Life status getting a little bit closer!
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Charles said:

    Mr. Topping, this is a British website, with British time. We'll have no antipodean chronographics here!

    Ironically this website is run on an American server with a comment system based in Canada.

    PB’s tech support, aka Robert, is also based in America

    This Bank Holiday weekend will see threads written and published in France, Spain, Ukraine, and Germany.

    PB is clearly run by the Liberal Metropolitan Elite.
    My schedule over the next 10 days is

    London-Sao Paolo-London-New York-London-Lenaxa-Toronto-London

    Even for me that’s a little nuts
    I am going to guess none of that will be in pleb-class?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    Begs the question: will Labour trashing the economy make houses more affordable for people who no longer have jobs?
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    Sandpit said:

    Charles said:

    Mr. Topping, this is a British website, with British time. We'll have no antipodean chronographics here!

    Ironically this website is run on an American server with a comment system based in Canada.

    PB’s tech support, aka Robert, is also based in America

    This Bank Holiday weekend will see threads written and published in France, Spain, Ukraine, and Germany.

    PB is clearly run by the Liberal Metropolitan Elite.
    My schedule over the next 10 days is

    London-Sao Paolo-London-New York-London-Lenaxa-Toronto-London

    Even for me that’s a little nuts
    That Gold-For-Life status getting a little bit closer!
    I believe Charles is already GGL!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,956

    NEW THREAD

  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    Sean_F said:

    What a complete dump.

    Oxford University has apologised to David Lammy after retweeting a post labelling his criticism "bitter".

    The original tweet, sent by a student, was in response to the Labour MP saying Oxford was "a bastion of white, middle class, southern privilege".

    Mr Lammy asked if the tweet represented the university's official position - at which point a senior staff member apologised and took responsibility.

    Just 11% of last year's undergraduates were from disadvantaged backgrounds.

    Oxford's director of public affairs, Ceri Thomas, said Mr Lammy's comments showed "no sign of bitterness" and there was "work to do" to improve diversity among students.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44221469

    What's there to apologise for? The student was expressing his own opinion, not speaking on behalf of the University.
    Don't blame Oxford, Cambridge et al for utter poverty of ambition in many 'northern' schools, i.e. roughly N and W of the Severn-Wash line. Your IQ may be 150, but you know your place. So at most you'll probably go to a redbrick.
  • HHemmeligHHemmelig Posts: 617
    HYUFD said:

    HHemmelig said:

    HYUFD said:



    The only possible exception to that is if somehow we could stay in the Single Market but with new controls on free movement for the UK to reflect the transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 the EU allowed us to have for 7 years but Blair refused to take

    Good to see that you are watering down your definition of 'ending free movement' - a few days ago you were talking about work permits, now you are talking about 'transitional controls'. Next week you will just fall back on playing 'Land of Hope an Glory' at immigration at Heathrow.

    Yep, the Tory sellout on Brexit is well on its way....
    Also this proposal is misleading to say the least. There is nothing stopping UK imposing transitional controls when Serbia, Bosnia etc join the EU, as we did for Romania and Bulgaria. So I presume HYUFD means retrospective controls imposed on Poland and the other members which joined in 2004. I can assure him that the chance of the EU agreeing to that is absolutely zero. Also pretty ineffective unless it also affected those immigrants already here.
    Why? France, Germany etc ALL imposed those transition controls for 7 years so it would not compromise the core principles of the single market.

    There are also stil plenty of Poles, Czechs etc who still want to come here and with free movement without controls we have had no control over the number we admit
    Because you can't impose transitional controls when the period of transition ended nearly a decade ago. No way will the EU agree to that.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    HYUFD said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Interesting rumblings on the EU. In some ways if forced to choose I’d rather stay in the SM than the CU. Even if we had to retain ‘free movement’, the end of European citizenship would mean migrants would interact with our welfare system differently (ie less!).

    Perhaps it’s now sellable to the public.

    It is not sellable to the public I am afraid.

    Brexit without new immigration controls and leaving free movement in place for most Leave voters, especially working class Leave voters, would be no Brexit at all. Staying in the Customs Union but not being able to do our own trade deals would be just about sellable to all but the most ideological Brexiteers but staying in the Single Market with free movement continuing would not.

    The only possible exception to that is if somehow we could stay in the Single Market but with new controls on free movement for the UK to reflect the transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 the EU allowed us to have but Blair refused to take
    The yearning some Leavers here have for Liam Fox to conduct new trade deals amazes me.

    While I think the UK can set up more advantageous trade deals that will require ability and time and trying to set them up while having a shortage of both will lead to worse terms of trade than present.

    That some Leavers think that not letting Liam Fox loose on the world is such a terrible sovereignty restriction that they're willing to concede control of UK immigration to the EU is beyond bizarre.
    Why the obsession on Liam Fox? The individual matters less than the principle, today it may be Liam Fox but in 5 years time it probably won't be.
    Because Liam Fox has the job at present.

    And I'll be rather more confident that advantageous trade deals will be negotiated in five years time than now.
This discussion has been closed.