Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Nightmare on Brexit Street

13

Comments

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. 43, risk of that is it associates the blues with the UK and the reds with the other side of the table. Corbyn already has form when it comes to believing the Russian state over the British state (despite his own backbenchers and the majority of the international community siding with us).
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    I don’t know why the cult are so unhappy with that Tracey Ullman sketch, it’s not like it isnt based on real events...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Burnley Lara
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    FF43 said:

    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I'm far from convinced about all this "Doomsday" nonsense. It's Project Fear once again but this time meant to terrify people into accepting whatever guff May and Davis dish up at the end of the tortuous A50 process.

    Of course, anarchy, food shortages and the like are not to be encouraged but anyone with half a functioning brain cell knows this kind of apocalyptic drivel is about as convincing as me tipping the Derby winner (missed again yesterday).

    It strongly suggests a position of weakness but needless to say all the apologists for the Government are getting ready to support whatever thin gruel is offered. The only "red line" left seems to be Freedom of Movement - almost anything else will do it seems whether it be BINO, a form of CU or a confused transitional status for Ulster which no one outside the DUP will care about.

    The Conservatives will then try to dress up this piece of tat as a "blueprint for a Global Britain" with roadshows, leaflets and a disinformation campaign which will make REMAIN's efforts in 2016 look tame.

    Key point. Leavers who aren't signed up Tories can blame the Conservatives as well as Remoaners and a wilful EU for the consequences of their vote to Leave the EU. Not great for the Conservatives.
    Leavers who aren't signed up Tories are likely already voting Labour anyway.

  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    kle4 said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Giving them back would be the right thing to do.
    My understanding was that even when the Greek government took advice on pursuing legal action over the stones the advice was it was not certain they would win and so they decided not to go that route, therefore to take a coldly practical view of things, if we were to give them back what would they give us for them?
    Abuse.
    Maybe a 99 year loan back?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Pakistan -189/0
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    rkrkrk said:

    "Iain Duncan Smith, the former Tory leader, said: “They are frozen in the headlights. They should be planning for what happens if there is no deal, not scaring the pants off each other. We need people with imagination and courage, not frightened rabbits.”

    The whole story is *literally* about the planning they are doing for a no deal Brexit.

    I would have thought IDS' complaint is that civil servants have TOO MUCH imagination. They also don't seem to be shying away from danger.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    #Awkward family moments no 1357 - Israel should be nuked raised at the breakfast table.

    Moment no 1356 was salisbury incident being faked raised over supper (I work near to Salisbury)

    What are you doing having meals with the corbyn family?
    :)

    Feels like that on certain points (they are huge fans of him) although a long time ago one was a Tory - they've been on quite the journey.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Most disappointing, another 3-4 overs of buttler tonking and he would have had his 100.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited June 2018
    kle4 said:

    #Awkward family moments no 1357 - Israel should be nuked raised at the breakfast table.

    Moment no 1356 was salisbury incident being faked raised over supper (I work near to Salisbury)

    What if Salisbury was faked by the Russians and they deliberately used non-fatal doses? Have you considered that over your poached egg on toast?

    eta: someone gave me Death Of Stalin so this might be the cue to watch it before this afternoon's racing.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,749
    edited June 2018
    rkrkrk said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Giving them back would be the right thing to do.
    Agreed. Seems obvious to me that this is the right thing to do.
    Also agree, but can't see it happening while UK/England is in full 'no one likes us, we don't care' mode. Of course it would be a great symbolic & comradely action towards a nation that's felt the rough end of the EU stick..
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    FF43 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    "Iain Duncan Smith, the former Tory leader, said: “They are frozen in the headlights. They should be planning for what happens if there is no deal, not scaring the pants off each other. We need people with imagination and courage, not frightened rabbits.”

    The whole story is *literally* about the planning they are doing for a no deal Brexit.

    I would have thought IDS' complaint is that civil servants have TOO MUCH imagination. They also don't seem to be shying away from danger.
    Frankly it's pretty courageous also to put those scenarios up for discussion given the attacks on the civil service from the media, aided and abetted by politicians in this govt in many cases.

    I think Tony Blair said in his book that he was bricking it about the fuel protests - this strikes me as a similar problem, the consequences are so bad, that a govt simply can't let them happen. So perfectly proper to do the contingency planning, but should never actually happen.
  • PurplePurple Posts: 150
    There will be big problems bringing in the harvest this year, let alone next. That's why the government is proposing to use prison labour to help with it.

    As recently as six months ago, the Cabinet Office stated they were not preparing for food shortages.

    This is from Cryzine, December 2017:

    "(The Cabinet Office) further states that 'the UK has a highly effective and resilient food supply chain (and) the resilience of the sector has been demonstrated in response to potentially disruptive challenges in recent years', that 'the food industry remains highly resilient owing to the capacity of food supply sectors and the high degree of substitutability of foodstuffs'.

    It is not clear how substitutability can prevent starvation in a country such as Britain that imports more than half its food.
    "


  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    stodge said:

    Morning all :)

    I'm far from convinced about all this "Doomsday" nonsense. It's Project Fear once again but this time meant to terrify people into accepting whatever guff May and Davis dish up at the end of the tortuous A50 process.

    Of course, anarchy, food shortages and the like are not to be encouraged but anyone with half a functioning brain cell knows this kind of apocalyptic drivel is about as convincing as me tipping the Derby winner (missed again yesterday).

    It strongly suggests a position of weakness but needless to say all the apologists for the Government are getting ready to support whatever thin gruel is offered. The only "red line" left seems to be Freedom of Movement - almost anything else will do it seems whether it be BINO, a form of CU or a confused transitional status for Ulster which no one outside the DUP will care about.

    The Conservatives will then try to dress up this piece of tat as a "blueprint for a Global Britain" with roadshows, leaflets and a disinformation campaign which will make REMAIN's efforts in 2016 look tame.

    You are correct because - while it might be painful and/or expensive - it's not like we can't buy things from the rest of the world.

    That being said, the UK's preparation for "No Deal" Brexit has clearly been inadequate from the get go, and that lack of preparation makes it very hard for us to walk, and therefore affects our negotiating position.

    Mrs May knows that a situation where - for one reason or another - there is a 10% temporary hike in the price of essentials on Brexit day (no matter how short lived) would be disastrous for the government, and therefore will agree to almost anything to prevent it.
  • PurplePurple Posts: 150
    edited June 2018

    Mr. Evershed, Disraeli.

    So Conservatives could have first Woman, Jewish, and Muslim PM.

    Was John Major the first PM with a working class background?
    That was James Callaghan.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    kle4 said:

    #Awkward family moments no 1357 - Israel should be nuked raised at the breakfast table.

    Moment no 1356 was salisbury incident being faked raised over supper (I work near to Salisbury)

    What if Salisbury was faked by the Russians and they deliberately used non-fatal doses? Have you considered that over your poached egg on toast?

    .
    I fear they now believe me to be a fool for falling for it, but I'll live with that rather than bicker about it! I did at the least have to object to the Israel stuff!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    More very interesting tidbits from today’s Stimes:

    - Boundary changes are now likely to pass as DUP is supportive
    - Current expected Brexit deal is exactly as many Leavers on here have been predicting: transition, longer customs transition, then MaxFac.

    Whisper it quietly, but both of these are very good news for Leavers, Tories and those who think we should no longer be using 18 year old boundaries alike....
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Purple said:

    There will be big problems bringing in the harvest this year, let alone next. That's why the government is proposing to use prison labour to help with it.

    As recently as six months ago, the Cabinet Office stated they were not preparing for food shortages.

    This is from Cryzine, December 2017:

    "(The Cabinet Office) further states that 'the UK has a highly effective and resilient food supply chain (and) the resilience of the sector has been demonstrated in response to potentially disruptive challenges in recent years', that 'the food industry remains highly resilient owing to the capacity of food supply sectors and the high degree of substitutability of foodstuffs'.

    It is not clear how substitutability can prevent starvation in a country such as Britain that imports more than half its food.
    "


    And there's no strawberries in Asda either.

    Its all getting a bit Comical Ali now.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Mortimer said:

    More very interesting tidbits from today’s Stimes:

    - Boundary changes are now likely to pass as DUP is supportive
    - Current expected Brexit deal is exactly as many Leavers on here have been predicting: transition, longer customs transition, then MaxFac.

    Whisper it quietly, but both of these are very good news for Leavers, Tories and those who think we should no longer be using 18 year old boundaries alike....

    I must admit that I don't support the reduction to 600 seats, although I do like the equalisation of boundary sizes.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    Purple said:

    There will be big problems bringing in the harvest this year, let alone next. That's why the government is proposing to use prison labour to help with it.

    As recently as six months ago, the Cabinet Office stated they were not preparing for food shortages.

    This is from Cryzine, December 2017:

    "(The Cabinet Office) further states that 'the UK has a highly effective and resilient food supply chain (and) the resilience of the sector has been demonstrated in response to potentially disruptive challenges in recent years', that 'the food industry remains highly resilient owing to the capacity of food supply sectors and the high degree of substitutability of foodstuffs'.

    It is not clear how substitutability can prevent starvation in a country such as Britain that imports more than half its food.
    "


    Nobody I know in the arable sector thinks there will be a problem this summer.

    Admittedly they are mainly in grains, whereas the most labour-intensive crops might be different.

    Difficult to imagine us "starving" (!!!) with bread, pasta, cereal, etc..
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Purple said:

    Mr. Evershed, Disraeli.

    So Conservatives could have first Woman, Jewish, and Muslim PM.

    Was John Major the first PM with a working class background?
    That was James Callaghan.
    Actually Ramsay Macdonald as pointed out earlier
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Mortimer said:

    More very interesting tidbits from today’s Stimes:

    - Boundary changes are now likely to pass as DUP is supportive
    - Current expected Brexit deal is exactly as many Leavers on here have been predicting: transition, longer customs transition, then MaxFac.

    Whisper it quietly, but both of these are very good news for Leavers, Tories and those who think we should no longer be using 18 year old boundaries alike....

    Aren't the boundary changes already out of date.

    As would be the reduction to 600 MPs.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. kle4, I've had a family member suggest the Salisbury explanation had some dubious aspects.

    Russian disinformation (as a social media expression of maskirovka, if I remember the term correctly) is almost an art form.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    More very interesting tidbits from today’s Stimes:

    - Boundary changes are now likely to pass as DUP is supportive
    - Current expected Brexit deal is exactly as many Leavers on here have been predicting: transition, longer customs transition, then MaxFac.

    Whisper it quietly, but both of these are very good news for Leavers, Tories and those who think we should no longer be using 18 year old boundaries alike....

    Aren't the boundary changes already out of date.

    As would be the reduction to 600 MPs.
    Based on the 2016 register IIRC? Don’t think it’s realy possible to be entirely up to the minute, given electoral commission and parly timescales...
  • PurplePurple Posts: 150
    HYUFD said:

    Purple said:

    Mr. Evershed, Disraeli.

    So Conservatives could have first Woman, Jewish, and Muslim PM.

    Was John Major the first PM with a working class background?
    That was James Callaghan.
    Actually Ramsay Macdonald as pointed out earlier
    I was forgetting about him. Thanks for the correction.
    RoyalBlue said:

    Returning the Parthenon Marbles to Greece is madness. It would be signing the death warrant of the British Museum, the greatest in the world.

    We can add another great British institution to those which Jeremy Corbyn wishes to destroy.

    "Madness", "death", "greatest in the world", "great", "destroy". I wonder how much you appreciate the greatness of the British Museum if you think it depends solely on custodianship of those stolen marbles.

    Is there any good reason to oppose the British state relinquishing the Koh-i-Noor diamond too? (Admittedly it's unclear who it should go to - India, Pakistan, Iran, or Afghanistan.)

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    Purple said:

    There will be big problems bringing in the harvest this year, let alone next. That's why the government is proposing to use prison labour to help with it.

    As recently as six months ago, the Cabinet Office stated they were not preparing for food shortages.

    This is from Cryzine, December 2017:

    "(The Cabinet Office) further states that 'the UK has a highly effective and resilient food supply chain (and) the resilience of the sector has been demonstrated in response to potentially disruptive challenges in recent years', that 'the food industry remains highly resilient owing to the capacity of food supply sectors and the high degree of substitutability of foodstuffs'.

    It is not clear how substitutability can prevent starvation in a country such as Britain that imports more than half its food.
    "


    Nobody I know in the arable sector thinks there will be a problem this summer.

    Admittedly they are mainly in grains, whereas the most labour-intensive crops might be different.

    Difficult to imagine us "starving" (!!!) with bread, pasta, cereal, etc..
    Aside from all that Union Jack logoed fruit and veg already in the shops I haven't seen any reports of farmers not planting their crops this year so it doesn't seem that they're overly concerned.

    And as you say cereal, and livestock, farming is a whole different situation.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Purple, relinquish?

    It's ours, and you just said yourself you have no idea who else would have the claim on it.

    Honestly.

    Should we empty the French museums and galleries of the works appropriated by Napoleon?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    More very interesting tidbits from today’s Stimes:

    - Boundary changes are now likely to pass as DUP is supportive
    - Current expected Brexit deal is exactly as many Leavers on here have been predicting: transition, longer customs transition, then MaxFac.

    Whisper it quietly, but both of these are very good news for Leavers, Tories and those who think we should no longer be using 18 year old boundaries alike....

    Aren't the boundary changes already out of date.

    As would be the reduction to 600 MPs.
    Based on the 2016 register IIRC? Don’t think it’s realy possible to be entirely up to the minute, given electoral commission and parly timescales...
    Has Wales been sorted for the Boundary Review? The last one I looked at had some very odd constituencies to make the tight range on size work.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Mr. Evershed, Disraeli.

    So Conservatives could have first Woman, Jewish, and Muslim PM.

    Was John Major the first PM with a working class background?
    Wasn't Thatcher?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    More very interesting tidbits from today’s Stimes:

    - Boundary changes are now likely to pass as DUP is supportive
    - Current expected Brexit deal is exactly as many Leavers on here have been predicting: transition, longer customs transition, then MaxFac.

    Whisper it quietly, but both of these are very good news for Leavers, Tories and those who think we should no longer be using 18 year old boundaries alike....

    Aren't the boundary changes already out of date.

    As would be the reduction to 600 MPs.
    Based on the 2016 register IIRC? Don’t think it’s realy possible to be entirely up to the minute, given electoral commission and parly timescales...
    Thanks.

    So its a new review to the one from 2011.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043

    Mr. Evershed, Disraeli.

    So Conservatives could have first Woman, Jewish, and Muslim PM.

    Was John Major the first PM with a working class background?
    Wasn't Thatcher?
    Nah. Pure bourgeois.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043

    Mr. Evershed, Disraeli.

    So Conservatives could have first Woman, Jewish, and Muslim PM.

    Was John Major the first PM with a working class background?
    Wasn't Thatcher?
    Even if she was Ramsey McD beat her by decades.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    Purple said:

    HYUFD said:

    Purple said:

    Mr. Evershed, Disraeli.

    So Conservatives could have first Woman, Jewish, and Muslim PM.

    Was John Major the first PM with a working class background?
    That was James Callaghan.
    Actually Ramsay Macdonald as pointed out earlier
    I was forgetting about him. Thanks for the correction.
    RoyalBlue said:

    Returning the Parthenon Marbles to Greece is madness. It would be signing the death warrant of the British Museum, the greatest in the world.

    We can add another great British institution to those which Jeremy Corbyn wishes to destroy.

    "Madness", "death", "greatest in the world", "great", "destroy". I wonder how much you appreciate the greatness of the British Museum if you think it depends solely on custodianship of those stolen marbles...

    A generous deal to regift the Marbles to Greece, as opposed to folding grudgingly to pressure, would likely pay dividends in securing future artefacts for the museum.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Go Anderson!
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043

    Mr. Evershed, Disraeli.

    So Conservatives could have first Woman, Jewish, and Muslim PM.

    Was John Major the first PM with a working class background?
    Wasn't Thatcher?
    Even if she was Ramsey McD beat her by decades.
    Only Lloyd George has been Welsh though.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    Anderson and Broad showing that pitching the ball up brings the odd four - but that doesn’t matter much when you’ve a big first innings lead and wickets to take.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    More very interesting tidbits from today’s Stimes:

    - Boundary changes are now likely to pass as DUP is supportive
    - Current expected Brexit deal is exactly as many Leavers on here have been predicting: transition, longer customs transition, then MaxFac.

    Whisper it quietly, but both of these are very good news for Leavers, Tories and those who think we should no longer be using 18 year old boundaries alike....

    Aren't the boundary changes already out of date.

    As would be the reduction to 600 MPs.
    Based on the 2016 register IIRC? Don’t think it’s realy possible to be entirely up to the minute, given electoral commission and parly timescales...
    Thanks.

    So its a new review to the one from 2011.
    Still working on the principle of 600 MPs (so in that respect the same as 2011), but based on update reviews in 2016 and 2018 according to Wiki.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited June 2018
    Purple said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Returning the Parthenon Marbles to Greece is madness. It would be signing the death warrant of the British Museum, the greatest in the world.

    We can add another great British institution to those which Jeremy Corbyn wishes to destroy.

    "Madness", "death", "greatest in the world", "great", "destroy". I wonder how much you appreciate the greatness of the British Museum if you think it depends solely on custodianship of those stolen marbles.

    Is there any good reason to oppose the British state relinquishing the Koh-i-Noor diamond too? (Admittedly it's unclear who it should go to - India, Pakistan, Iran, or Afghanistan.)

    Except that they weren't stolen and those left behind were destroyed. Had they not been protected in our museum they'd be dust now so hard to have sympathy.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    Mr. Purple, relinquish?

    It's ours, and you just said yourself you have no idea who else would have the claim on it.

    Honestly.

    Should we empty the French museums and galleries of the works appropriated by Napoleon?

    Of course the French should give back what they stole to who they stole it from.
    The idea that we own something because 'spoils of war' is utterly outdated.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited June 2018

    Mr. Evershed, Disraeli.

    So Conservatives could have first Woman, Jewish, and Muslim PM.

    Was John Major the first PM with a working class background?
    Wasn't Thatcher?
    Nah. Pure bourgeois.
    Thatcher was lower middle class, her father owned two grocery shops, much like Lloyd George, father was a teacher and Wilson, father a chemist and mother a teacher and Callaghan, father a Chief Petty Officer in the Navy.

    The only genuinely working class PMs we have had are Ramsay MacDonald, father a farm labourer and mother a housemaid, Ted Heath, father a carpenter and builder and mother a maid and John Major, father a music hall performer.

    Our other PMs have all been public school educated and upper middle class, or even upper class like Churchill, Home and Salisbury and Palmerston or with vicars as fathers like Brown and May.



  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387

    Mr. Evershed, Disraeli.

    So Conservatives could have first Woman, Jewish, and Muslim PM.

    Was John Major the first PM with a working class background?
    Wasn't Thatcher?
    Even if she was Ramsey McD beat her by decades.
    Only Lloyd George has been Welsh though.
    He represented a Welsh constituency but he wasn't Welsh.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Mr. Evershed, Disraeli.

    So Conservatives could have first Woman, Jewish, and Muslim PM.

    Was John Major the first PM with a working class background?
    Wasn't Thatcher?
    Even if she was Ramsey McD beat her by decades.
    Ramsay MacDonald was our first prime minister with the initials JRM,
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    I think Tracey Ullman’s pretty funny overall, but I don’t find her Corbyn impression too convincing actually. I think his Dead Ringers impression sounds much more like him, Ullman doesn’t do Corbyn’s voice very well. Her best impressions by far are Angela Merkel and Nicola Sturgeon. Jan Ravens does a much better impression of TMay than Ullman though.

    From Twitter it also seems Corbyn’s supporters also weren’t happy with the first episode/new series of Frankie Boyle’s New World Order. But it was hardly ‘propaganda.’ Sara Pascoe has supported him in the past, and neither Katherine Ryan nor Frankie Boyle are particularly right wing (both pretty left wing esp Boyle).
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    Purple said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Returning the Parthenon Marbles to Greece is madness. It would be signing the death warrant of the British Museum, the greatest in the world.

    We can add another great British institution to those which Jeremy Corbyn wishes to destroy.

    "Madness", "death", "greatest in the world", "great", "destroy". I wonder how much you appreciate the greatness of the British Museum if you think it depends solely on custodianship of those stolen marbles.

    Is there any good reason to oppose the British state relinquishing the Koh-i-Noor diamond too? (Admittedly it's unclear who it should go to - India, Pakistan, Iran, or Afghanistan.)

    Except that they weren't stolen and those left behind were destroyed. Had they not been protected in our museum they'd be dust now so hard to have sympathy.
    And we have benefited significantly from storing them (and in many cases been responsible for wars that might have destroyed them). Time to give them back.
  • PurplePurple Posts: 150
    Betfair prices: roughly evens bar the top 5 runners for the Conservative leadership and the same bar the top 8 in Labour.

    Why is there so much uncertainty? *innocent face*

    A white knight will appear. Probably already on the Tory list, with his nanny in trail, and with a very competently managed cartoon-like image. "Vox populi, vox dei".

    It won't be Sajid Javid - standing with his legs wide apart for a photograph doesn't get over his history of bending like a twig in the wind on the EU membership issue.

    The alternative could be that Britain enters an extended period in which none of her leading politicians gives an impression of knowing which side is up - cf. the French Fourth Republic - but I doubt it. That regime in France eventually ended, and things happen faster nowadays.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. rkrkrk, how far back do you want to take that principle?

    Also, Elgin didn't steal the marbles. He asked for, and received, permission.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575

    Mr. rkrkrk, how far back do you want to take that principle?

    Also, Elgin didn't steal the marbles. He asked for, and received, permission.

    Hence gift.
    Gifts do not establish precedents.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    Bess just justified his selection with that catch.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,768
    rkrkrk said:

    Mr. Purple, relinquish?

    It's ours, and you just said yourself you have no idea who else would have the claim on it.

    Honestly.

    Should we empty the French museums and galleries of the works appropriated by Napoleon?

    Of course the French should give back what they stole to who they stole it from.
    The idea that we own something because 'spoils of war' is utterly outdated.
    The French would beg to differ.

    The Elgin Marbles were not, however, stolen. Hence, any claim that the British Museum is not the legal owner would fail. But, it would be nice to see them displayed in their place of origin. That is not matter of law, but rather, an act of generosity. Any agreement with Greece should acknowledge that the British Museum remains the legal owner.

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    Interesting story on Oklahoma politics:
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/06/04/the-teachers-strike-and-the-democratic-revival-in-oklahoma

    Should Oklahoma turn Democrat....
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    I'm quite pleased I got up early to watch the cricket...
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    Mr. rkrkrk, how far back do you want to take that principle?

    Also, Elgin didn't steal the marbles. He asked for, and received, permission.

    I think it's contested whether it was theft or not.
    Regardless we should give them back.
    Clearly we would want them back if the situation were reversed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    rcs1000 said:

    I'm quite pleased I got up early to watch the cricket...

    Stay awake - your country clearly needs you.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Re bands / ticket prices...the freakonomics episode on this was very interesting and the reality is a little different to perception.

    One change not mentioned below, most bands are now signed to 360 deals. In the past, the record was a joint venture with the label and the tour was mostly all the bands to make money off. Now labels take a large percentage of everything, from tickets to merch, plus incredibly it isn’t uncommon now for support acts to be charged to appear (not even play for free).

    Support acts paying on to tour has been common for ages.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575

    I think Tracey Ullman’s pretty funny overall, but I don’t find her Corbyn impression too convincing actually. I think his Dead Ringers impression sounds much more like him, Ullman doesn’t do Corbyn’s voice very well. Her best impressions by far are Angela Merkel and Nicola Sturgeon. Jan Ravens does a much better impression of TMay than Ullman though.

    From Twitter it also seems Corbyn’s supporters also weren’t happy with the first episode/new series of Frankie Boyle’s New World Order. But it was hardly ‘propaganda.’ Sara Pascoe has supported him in the past, and neither Katherine Ryan nor Frankie Boyle are particularly right wing (both pretty left wing esp Boyle).

    I think anything short of unalloyed adulation is taken as bias...
  • saddosaddo Posts: 534

    I think Tracey Ullman’s pretty funny overall, but I don’t find her Corbyn impression too convincing actually. I think his Dead Ringers impression sounds much more like him, Ullman doesn’t do Corbyn’s voice very well. Her best impressions by far are Angela Merkel and Nicola Sturgeon. Jan Ravens does a much better impression of TMay than Ullman though.

    From Twitter it also seems Corbyn’s supporters also weren’t happy with the first episode/new series of Frankie Boyle’s New World Order. But it was hardly ‘propaganda.’ Sara Pascoe has supported him in the past, and neither Katherine Ryan nor Frankie Boyle are particularly right wing (both pretty left wing esp Boyle).

    Part of the Corbyn piss take is the bad impression. The cultists are so sensitive to anything that upsets the great leader.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. rkrkrk, then I look forward to the return of Calais.
  • blueblueblueblue Posts: 875
    Mortimer said:

    More very interesting tidbits from today’s Stimes:

    - Boundary changes are now likely to pass as DUP is supportive
    - Current expected Brexit deal is exactly as many Leavers on here have been predicting: transition, longer customs transition, then MaxFac.

    Whisper it quietly, but both of these are very good news for Leavers, Tories and those who think we should no longer be using 18 year old boundaries alike....

    That WOULD be excellent news. Does the collective wisdom of PB have any idea when they might actually go through?
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    Sean_F said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Mr. Purple, relinquish?

    It's ours, and you just said yourself you have no idea who else would have the claim on it.

    Honestly.

    Should we empty the French museums and galleries of the works appropriated by Napoleon?

    Of course the French should give back what they stole to who they stole it from.
    The idea that we own something because 'spoils of war' is utterly outdated.
    The French would beg to differ.

    The Elgin Marbles were not, however, stolen. Hence, any claim that the British Museum is not the legal owner would fail. But, it would be nice to see them displayed in their place of origin. That is not matter of law, but rather, an act of generosity. Any agreement with Greece should acknowledge that the British Museum remains the legal owner.

    The French would be wrong. Napoleon definitely stole artwork.

    I don't particularly care for a lengthy court case which will only benefit lawyers and which seems pointless anyway given how long ago the contested events took place. We should just give them back.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    Nigelb said:

    I think Tracey Ullman’s pretty funny overall, but I don’t find her Corbyn impression too convincing actually. I think his Dead Ringers impression sounds much more like him, Ullman doesn’t do Corbyn’s voice very well. Her best impressions by far are Angela Merkel and Nicola Sturgeon. Jan Ravens does a much better impression of TMay than Ullman though.

    From Twitter it also seems Corbyn’s supporters also weren’t happy with the first episode/new series of Frankie Boyle’s New World Order. But it was hardly ‘propaganda.’ Sara Pascoe has supported him in the past, and neither Katherine Ryan nor Frankie Boyle are particularly right wing (both pretty left wing esp Boyle).

    I think anything short of unalloyed adulation is taken as bias...
    Yes, it’s a shame. One of the things Labour has done that is right under Corbyn is talk about issues concerning inter generational unfairness, but the expectation that you have to worship Corbyn otherwise you’re a Blairite is very off putting.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881

    Mr. rkrkrk, then I look forward to the return of Calais.

    Calais is a city which is a bit different to a painting.
    The people in it are obviously French not British.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    rkrkrk said:

    Mr. rkrkrk, how far back do you want to take that principle?

    Also, Elgin didn't steal the marbles. He asked for, and received, permission.

    I think it's contested whether it was theft or not.
    Regardless we should give them back.
    Clearly we would want them back if the situation were reversed.
    But we wouldn't expect to without recompense, in the absence of a legal obligation. Nor should they. What would that nice gesture get us? Not even goodwill, I woukd suggest
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,774
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting story on Oklahoma politics:
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/06/04/the-teachers-strike-and-the-democratic-revival-in-oklahoma

    Should Oklahoma turn Democrat....

    I read that earlier today: that schools are unable to afford to open five days a week is astonishing, as is the fact that West Virginia (not a state known for its high funding of schools) has a budget 40% higher per pupil.

    It would be interesting to see the impact on Oklahoma student outcomes.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Mr. rkrkrk, how far back do you want to take that principle?

    Also, Elgin didn't steal the marbles. He asked for, and received, permission.

    I think it's contested whether it was theft or not.
    Regardless we should give them back.
    Clearly we would want them back if the situation were reversed.
    But we wouldn't expect to without recompense, in the absence of a legal obligation. Nor should they. What would that nice gesture get us? Not even goodwill, I woukd suggest
    It's still the right thing to do whether you get something good in return or not.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    edited June 2018

    Mr. Evershed, Disraeli.

    So Conservatives could have first Woman, Jewish, and Muslim PM.

    Was John Major the first PM with a working class background?
    Wasn't Thatcher?
    Even if she was Ramsey McD beat her by decades.
    Only Lloyd George has been Welsh though.
    He represented a Welsh constituency but he wasn't Welsh.
    No, Lloyd George was definitely Welsh. His actual name was Dafydd Llwyd Siôr. He was also not a native speaker of English (only PM to date for whom it was a second language).

    He was however born in Manchester, before his father died when he was two which led to him being raised by his uncle, a cobbler and shepherd in Llanystumdwy near Criccieth.

    Arguably however his background was similar to Macdonald's, just below that of Disraeli.

    It depends however on what people mean by 'working class.' If they mean, 'people who have had to work for a living at all times because they have no financial choice' then certainly Lloyd George and Disraeli himself beat Macdonald to the title of first working class PM, and so arguably would Canning although his circumstances were considerably more affluent than either of those two.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. rkrkrk, at the height of the Angevin Empire, half of what is now France belonged to the royal family of England.

    And during the Carolingian Empire, the land of modern day Germany was in political union with France.

    Anyway, I must be off.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,575
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting story on Oklahoma politics:
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/06/04/the-teachers-strike-and-the-democratic-revival-in-oklahoma

    Should Oklahoma turn Democrat....

    I read that earlier today: that schools are unable to afford to open five days a week is astonishing...
    Something happening in the UK now, too (where schools don’t have the ability to set salaries as low as Oklahoma).

    The most interesting thing (from a betting pov) is the return of interest in state politics, and rebuilding of state Democratic organisations.
    The Trump variety show is losing some of its sparkle.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,043
    Scott_P said:
    Well, the Dutch don't think that the Eu will reciprocate clearly
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting story on Oklahoma politics:
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/06/04/the-teachers-strike-and-the-democratic-revival-in-oklahoma

    Should Oklahoma turn Democrat....

    I read that earlier today: that schools are unable to afford to open five days a week is astonishing, as is the fact that West Virginia (not a state known for its high funding of schools) has a budget 40% higher per pupil.

    It would be interesting to see the impact on Oklahoma student outcomes.
    Why are you talking about Oklahoma being astonishing?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jun/01/schools-broke-class-sizes-teachers-brexit
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,401
    If we are going to give some small pieces of rock back to Greece, isn't there a much bigger piece of rock we could give back to Spain?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758

    If we are going to give some small pieces of rock back to Greece, isn't there a much bigger piece of rock we could give back to Spain?

    The people who have it at the moment are proving sticky...

    I'm not going to get my coat, it's too bloody hot as it is.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    ydoethur said:

    Mr. Evershed, Disraeli.

    So Conservatives could have first Woman, Jewish, and Muslim PM.

    Was John Major the first PM with a working class background?
    Wasn't Thatcher?
    Even if she was Ramsey McD beat her by decades.
    Only Lloyd George has been Welsh though.
    He represented a Welsh constituency but he wasn't Welsh.
    No, Lloyd George was definitely Welsh. His actual name was Dafydd Llwyd Siôr. He was also not a native speaker of English (only PM to date for whom it was a second language).

    He was however born in Manchester, before his father died when he was two which led to him being raised by his uncle, a cobbler and shepherd in Llanystumdwy near Criccieth.

    Arguably however his background was similar to Macdonald's, just below that of Disraeli.

    It depends however on what people mean by 'working class.' If they mean, 'people who have had to work for a living at all times because they have no financial choice' then certainly Lloyd George and Disraeli himself beat Macdonald to the title of first working class PM, and so arguably would Canning although his circumstances were considerably more affluent than either of those two.
    Disraeli went to prep school and his brothers went to Winchester and his father was a historian and literary critic, he may not have come from a very wealthy background but he was by no definition working class.

    Canning went to Eton and Christ Church Oxford, he was on no definition working class either and although his father was a not particularly successful merchant and lawyer he spent most of his childhood with his uncle, a London merchant, who became his guardian.

    Even Lloyd George's father was a teacher and farmer, although he died young and his uncle was a Baptist Minister and shoemaker, so his background too was more lower middle class than working class hence Macdonald is generally accepted as the first working class PM.
  • MJWMJW Posts: 1,282

    stodge said:

    ITV should bring back Spitting Image, just to wind up the Corbynista cult.

    They don't need to do a single sketch about Labour, there's hours if not series worth of material from the Conservative side to work with.

    It would be really easy to send up May, Johnson, Davis, Javid and Gove but the only problem is real life is so much funnier than anything the puppeteers could come up with.
    Sadly, since they’re allegedly in power. Any SI sketch would have to add in Arlene Foster’s pocket.
    There's a fair argument that the prevalence of appalling charlatans - both on left and right is in part due to the blunting of satire in recent years. The main reason for this though is simply proliferation of options - at Spitting Image/HIGNFY's height you only had 4 entertainment options on if you wanted to stay in. Now you have thousands - as a result commissioning editors steer clear of stuff that's out to stir things up because it doesn't have an obvious audience. Instead, when politics is tackled it's usually with a tut and a cliche rather than with the open savagery of the past. Although political comedy leans to the left, that's true of the right and Brexit too where a mild tut and saying "Isn't it awful?" seems to suffice because there's an assumption that will satisfy preaching to the converted while not causing any outrage or going over people's heads. And of course there's no desire to say, put Ken in a Gestapo uniform as SI did with Tebbit and say have Corbyn accepting his assurances that his leather jacket is just his newt wrangling gear as dealing with the flying monkeys just isn't worth the aggro for a small audience share you get anyway with far milder quips.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    What is this obsession about whether someone is working class or not?

    This I’m prolier than thou attitude stinks.

    Have we ever had a ginger PM?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    What is this obsession about whether someone is working class or not?

    This I’m prolier than thou attitude stinks.

    Have we ever had a ginger PM?

    Winston Churchill.
  • blueblueblueblue Posts: 875
    rkrkrk said:

    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Mr. rkrkrk, how far back do you want to take that principle?

    Also, Elgin didn't steal the marbles. He asked for, and received, permission.

    I think it's contested whether it was theft or not.
    Regardless we should give them back.
    Clearly we would want them back if the situation were reversed.
    But we wouldn't expect to without recompense, in the absence of a legal obligation. Nor should they. What would that nice gesture get us? Not even goodwill, I woukd suggest
    It's still the right thing to do whether you get something good in return or not.
    Tell that to the sodding EU!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    What is this obsession about whether someone is working class or not?

    This I’m prolier than thou attitude stinks.

    I thought the general rule was the only people who care what class they are, are the upper middle class, who also simultaneously deify and patronise them.
  • franklynfranklyn Posts: 297
    Meanwhile, for the tens of thousands of commuters who use Thameslink, it has now been announced that the timetable has been suspended, so that trains will run when they happen to run. Presumably this allows them to wriggle out of paying compensation. This is a line that runs into central London, to allow people to get to work,so that they can earn money from which tax is paid to the government, which keeps the whole show on the road.

    Meanwhile the Minister of transport, Chris Grayling, does nothing.

    What a shambles
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited June 2018
    rkrkrk said:

    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Mr. rkrkrk, how far back do you want to take that principle?

    Also, Elgin didn't steal the marbles. He asked for, and received, permission.

    I think it's contested whether it was theft or not.
    Regardless we should give them back.
    Clearly we would want them back if the situation were reversed.
    But we wouldn't expect to without recompense, in the absence of a legal obligation. Nor should they. What would that nice gesture get us? Not even goodwill, I woukd suggest
    It's still the right thing to do whether you get something good in return or not.
    But no nations do things just because it is right unless it's something morally clear, and frankly the issue of the marbles doesn't appear so given the number who claim they were stolen etc, when they weren't.

    I dont think this is something so morally good we should do it just because. No, it woukd just be a nice gesture. Let us not pretend some great wrong would be righted by doing it, or that a great wrong would be perpetrated by not doing it. No, it's pretty meaningless if we do, not a great good.

    That's why I have no issue being hard nosed about it - its not some moral outrage that must be corrected, just something they woukd like. I'm all for doing good without reward, but this woukd be a favour, not doing good.
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited June 2018

    What is this obsession about whether someone is working class or not?

    This I’m prolier than thou attitude stinks.

    Have we ever had a ginger PM?

    The biggest dividing test in the future is going to be who own a house and who rents. It is the biggest divider of wealth we have now for the majority of people.

    A 30 year old teacher renting and spending half her money on rent in London may be middle class - supposedly - but is she really better off than a supposed working class 55 year old taxi driver who owns a £1m house he bought for £30k 35 years ago.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    rkrkrk said:

    Mr. rkrkrk, then I look forward to the return of Calais.

    Calais is a city which is a bit different to a painting.
    The people in it are obviously French not British.
    Try telling that principle to the argentinians.
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    brendan16 said:

    surby said:

    Well, it seems that the civil service conclude that we can avoid ALL of the issues they mention if we simply drop border controls for a period, as I suggested before.

    Therefore, the question is whether the EU will introduce border controls and then what impact that will have. For 80%+ of exports, I don't imagine that a delay at customs in Europe is going to be fatal - they simply have to plan for the delay. The EU cannot, of course, refuse to allow UK exports to enter at all. It is against WTO rules.

    Then, if the EU do block time critical items (eg foodstuffs) then we simply retaliate. Assuming we have declared unilateral free trade with everyone, we are allowed to retaliate to someone else's actions under WTO. And as we know, the EU import a lot of stuff to the UK.

    So, no, the port will not collapse and food will not run out and medical supplies will still be delivered. UK exports to the EU will be impacted but in many cases it will simply present as a time delay. And the UK government have 40bn up their sleeves to compensate affected exporters. At some stage, the EU will stop being silly and agree a trade deal or, if not, formalise sensible agreements for WTO trade.

    Either way, not seeing doomsday.

    "if we simply drop border controls" will that equate to free movement?
    No. Unilateral feee trade - only affects goods imports. In fact, proper immigration controls could be imposed immediately.
    I went to Dublin on Friday. For the last 5 years or so, I have to show my passport when I arrive in Dublin but do not go through Passport Control when I return. Which is bloody good news, considering how long it takes in Heathrow even with the Iris machines.
    Dublin airport has no apparent means of segregating UK and CI passengers - which perhaps explains the approach. If you arrive on Aer Lingus at their new Terminal 2 hub you will often find you end up in long queues with those arriving from the US. I prefer to use Ryanair or cityjet as I can arrive at the quieter terminal 1.

    But they even require you to show passports at Kerry airport where the only regular daily flights are from Dublin, Luton and Stansted. So much for the D
    common travel area! On return to the UK no ID is required as RoI flights are treated as domestic arrivals.
    So RoI doesn't give a fig about Common Travel Area ? I flew back on Friday evening with BA from T1. The queue was probably a mile long. I much prefer T2.
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    brendan16 said:

    What is this obsession about whether someone is working class or not?

    This I’m prolier than thou attitude stinks.

    Have we ever had a ginger PM?

    The biggest dividing test in the future is going to be who own a house and who rents. It is the biggest divider of wealth we have now for the majority of people.

    A 30 year old teacher renting and spending half her money on rent in London may be middle class - supposedly - but is she really better off than a supposed working class 55 year old taxi driver who owns a £1m house he bought for £30k 35 years ago.
    Taxi drivers always had more spending money than teachers. They are not on PAYE.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,969
    edited June 2018
    If we’re going to give bits of the UK away let us start with Northern Ireland.

    Solves a major Brexit problem and gets rid of the biggest cause of terrorist deaths in the UK.

    Plus it corrects a great historical injustice.

    Absolute win win.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    HYUFD said:

    Disraeli went to prep school and his brothers went to Winchester and his father was a historian and literary critic, he may not have come from a very wealthy background but he was by no definition working class.

    Canning went to Eton and Christ Church Oxford, he was on no definition working class either and although his father was a not particularly successful merchant and lawyer he spent most of his childhood with his uncle, a London merchant, who became his guardian.

    Even Lloyd George's father was a teacher and farmer, although he died young and his uncle was a Baptist Minister and shoemaker, so his background too was more lower middle class than working class hence Macdonald is generally accepted as the first working class PM.

    Canning went through school and Oxford paid for by his uncle, although I agree that's not what 'working class' traditionally means.

    Lloyd George's father was a schoolteacher but that didn't automatically confer middle-class status at that time. It was a poorly paid job and didn't always require the level of education you might expect. (Stalin's father was a cobbler as well, although that's apropos of nothing.)

    Macdonald came from a poorer background than any of them but like Disraeli he successfully exploited his career to become comfortably off (although not in Lloyd George's league) - and again, he was a schoolteacher.

    My point really was to ask, more simply, what do we mean by 'working class?' Because in many ways it's a rather unhelpful label. Surely anyone who has to work for a living, because they can't save up enough to not work for a time, is technically 'working class.' On that basis all three fit comfortably into that category until they entered Parliament even if later they moved out of it.

    I think a lot of these definitions of 'class' - which ultimately derive from Karl Marx and his belief that factory workers (whom he called 'the workers' for short) would one day rule the world and build a new economic and social system, tend to obscure as much as they inform. They're also capable of doing dreadful damage in the wrong hands (Stalin springs to mind). They exclude, rather than include. For example they do not include agricultural workers, one reason why Marxism has tended to be weak in rural areas. And they exclude the people whose education and ability to administer such a system would be needed if it were ever imposed.

    It's one reason why Marxism is unattractive to anyone with a brain. It even proved, eventually, unattractive to Marx who implicitly admitted his theories didn't fit the facts (and very bitter he was about it as well).
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Mr. rkrkrk, how far back do you want to take that principle?

    Also, Elgin didn't steal the marbles. He asked for, and received, permission.

    I think it's contested whether it was theft or not.
    Regardless we should give them back.
    Clearly we would want them back if the situation were reversed.
    But we wouldn't expect to without recompense, in the absence of a legal obligation. Nor should they. What would that nice gesture get us? Not even goodwill, I woukd suggest
    It's still the right thing to do whether you get something good in return or not.
    But no nations do things just because it is right unless it's something morally clear, and frankly the issue of the marbles doesn't appear so given the number who claim they were stolen etc, when they weren't.

    I dont think this is something so morally good we should do it just because. No, it woukd just be a nice gesture. Let us not pretend some great wrong would be righted by doing it, or that a great wrong would be perpetrated by not doing it. No, it's pretty meaningless if we do, not a great good.

    That's why I have no issue being hard nosed about it - its not some moral outrage that must be corrected, just something they woukd like. I'm all for doing good without reward, but this woukd be a favour, not doing good.
    http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1883142_1883129_1883001,00.html

    The Elgin marbles belong to the Parthenon, right ? Because it was taken from there if you don't like the idea that it was stolen, which it was.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    If we’re going to give bits of the UK away let us start with Northern Ireland.

    Solves a major Brexit problem and gets rid of the biggest cause of terrorist deaths in the UK.

    Plus it corrects a great historical injustice.

    Absolute win win.

    In Arlene Foster's interview on Sky she spoke as much about domestic politics in the Republic of Ireland as anything else. She's clearly preparing her political brand for an all-Ireland future. :)
  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited June 2018
    surby said:

    brendan16 said:

    What is this obsession about whether someone is working class or not?

    This I’m prolier than thou attitude stinks.

    Have we ever had a ginger PM?

    The biggest dividing test in the future is going to be who own a house and who rents. It is the biggest divider of wealth we have now for the majority of people.

    A 30 year old teacher renting and spending half her money on rent in London may be middle class - supposedly - but is she really better off than a supposed working class 55 year old taxi driver who owns a £1m house he bought for £30k 35 years ago.
    Taxi drivers always had more spending money than teachers. They are not on PAYE.
    Agreed - but a teacher was apparently always seen as middle class and a taxi driver working class. The point is such dividing lines are no longer relevant. It's property and assets that determine wealth and status - not income or class as the barriers to entry for the former are now so high. As Rachel Reeves put it so well - the hardest way to get rich these days is to actually go out to work!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758

    What is this obsession about whether someone is working class or not?

    This I’m prolier than thou attitude stinks.

    Have we ever had a ginger PM?

    Is that a rather homophobic reference to sexuality or not strictly racist reference to hair colour?
  • PurplePurple Posts: 150
    edited June 2018
    "I’d expect Mrs May to ask for an extension of Article 50 whilst we sort of the Brexit mess.

    However there are some in the Tory party that are happy to embrace a no deal Brexit so they may try and persuade Mrs May that this is hyperbole from the civil service. They will also have the threat of Nigel Farage following through on his promise to “don khaki, pick up a rifle and head for the front lines” if the Brexit he wants isn’t delivered.
    "

    It's got to come to a head. A request for an A50 extension would at most just delay things, if it even achieved that.

    How many Tories and UKIPpers in various factions would, when it really comes down to it, still support fullscale Brexit (leaving the SM, CU, FOM) even if they knew it would mean at least a substantial risk of a) famine, and b) a hard border and a return of the Troubles in Ireland?

    The answer is that many Tories and most UKIPpers would.

    Here's Nigel Farage threatening to take up a rifle.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVHP1wxqg8U
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    kle4 said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Mr. rkrkrk, how far back do you want to take that principle?

    Also, Elgin didn't steal the marbles. He asked for, and received, permission.

    I think it's contested whether it was theft or not.
    Regardless we should give them back.
    Clearly we would want them back if the situation were reversed.
    But we wouldn't expect to without recompense, in the absence of a legal obligation. Nor should they. What would that nice gesture get us? Not even goodwill, I woukd suggest
    It's still the right thing to do whether you get something good in return or not.
    But no nations do things just because it is right unless it's something morally clear, and frankly the issue of the marbles doesn't appear so given the number who claim they were stolen etc, when they weren't.

    I dont think this is something so morally good we should do it just because. No, it woukd just be a nice gesture. Let us not pretend some great wrong would be righted by doing it, or that a great wrong would be perpetrated by not doing it. No, it's pretty meaningless if we do, not a great good.

    That's why I have no issue being hard nosed about it - its not some moral outrage that must be corrected, just something they woukd like. I'm all for doing good without reward, but this woukd be a favour, not doing good.
    It's morally clear to me! I've never said it will solve world peace - it's just the right thing to do.
    And nations do sometimes do the right thing just for the sake of the right thing, and it's something I'd like to see more not less of!

    As to whether they were stolen, wikipedia suggests there is at least a controversy on the point with forged documents, translations kept but originals lost, lack of clarity over what the documents refer to, bribes to officials etc. etc.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    brendan16 said:

    surby said:

    brendan16 said:

    What is this obsession about whether someone is working class or not?

    This I’m prolier than thou attitude stinks.

    Have we ever had a ginger PM?

    The biggest dividing test in the future is going to be who own a house and who rents. It is the biggest divider of wealth we have now for the majority of people.

    A 30 year old teacher renting and spending half her money on rent in London may be middle class - supposedly - but is she really better off than a supposed working class 55 year old taxi driver who owns a £1m house he bought for £30k 35 years ago.
    Taxi drivers always had more spending money than teachers. They are not on PAYE.
    Agreed - but a teacher was apparently always seen as middle class and a taxi driver working class. The point is such dividing lines are no longer relevant. It's property and assets that determine wealth and status - not income or class as the barriers to entry for the former are now so high. As Rachel Reeves put it so well - the hardest way to get rich these days is to actually go out to work!
    London's black cab drivers would surely be horrified to be called working class.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233
    edited June 2018
    A few weeks/months ago somebody pointed out (@AndyJS ?) that there was a house effect opening up for the US midterms, with one category of polls showing different results to another. Can anybody remember the article and/or has a link?

  • brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    edited June 2018
    Purple said:

    "I’d expect Mrs May to ask for an extension of Article 50 whilst we sort of the Brexit mess.

    However there are some in the Tory party that are happy to embrace a no deal Brexit so they may try and persuade Mrs May that this is hyperbole from the civil service. They will also have the threat of Nigel Farage following through on his promise to “don khaki, pick up a rifle and head for the front lines” if the Brexit he wants isn’t delivered.
    "

    It's got to come to a head. An A50 extension would at most just delay things, if it even did that.

    How many Tories and UKIPpers in various factions would, when it really comes down to it, still support fullscale Brexit (leaving the SM, CU, FOM) even if they knew it would mean at least a substantial risk of a) famine, and b) a hard border and a return of the Troubles in Ireland?

    The answer is that many Tories and most UKIPpers would.

    Here's Nigel Farage threatening to take up a rifle.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVHP1wxqg8U

    So now we face a famine? Sorry a famine is no food and total starvation and resulting disease and large number of deaths as Ireland experienced in the 1840s - not less choice on the shelves at Waitrose.

    And apparently everyone is going to take up arms and start bombing and killing each other because there might be a few customs checks on the Irish border? That is an excuse not a reason.

    It is just too much really!
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    ydoethur said:

    HYUFD said:

    Disraeli went to prep school and his brothers went to Winchester and his father was a historian and literary critic, he may not have come from a very wealthy background but he was by no definition working class.

    Canning went to Eton and Christ Church Oxford, he was on no definition working class either and although his father was a not particularly successful merchant and lawyer he spent most of his childhood with his uncle, a London merchant, who became his guardian.

    Even Lloyd George's father was a teacher and farmer, although he died young and his uncle was a Baptist Minister and shoemaker, so his background too was more lower middle class than working class hence Macdonald is generally accepted as the first working class PM.

    Canning went through school and Oxford paid for by his uncle, although I agree that's not what 'working class' traditionally means.

    Lloyd George's father was a schoolteacher but that didn't automatically confer middle-class status at that time. It was a poorly paid job and didn't always require the level of education you might expect. (Stalin's father was a cobbler as well, although that's apropos of nothing.)

    Macdonald came from a poorer background than any of them but like Disraeli he successfully exploited his career to become comfortably off (although not in Lloyd George's league) - and again, he was a schoolteacher.

    My point really was to ask, more simply, what do we mean by 'working class?' Because in many ways it's a rather unhelpful label. Surely anyone who has to work for a living, because they can't save up enough to not work for a time, is technically 'working class.' On that basis all three fit comfortably into that category until they entered Parliament even if later they moved out of it.

    I think a lot of these definitions of 'class' - which ultimately derive from Karl Marx and his belief that factory workers (whom he called 'the workers' for short) would one day rule the world and build a new economic and social system, tend to obscure as much as they inform. They're also capable of doing dreadful damage in the wrong hands (Stalin springs to mind). They exclude, rather than include. For example they do not include agricultural workers, one reason why Marxism has tended to be weak in rural areas. And they exclude the people whose education and ability to administer such a system would be needed if it were ever imposed.

    It's one reason why Marxism is unattractive to anyone with a brain. It even proved, eventually, unattractive to Marx who implicitly admitted his theories didn't fit the facts (and very bitter he was about it as well).
    Lloyd George and Mrs Thatcher were both more-or-less sons of the manse, like Brown and May. That's a fair proportion.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,233

    What is this obsession about whether someone is working class or not?

    This I’m prolier than thou attitude stinks.

    Have we ever had a ginger PM?

    Churchill was a ginger before he got bald and fat and an old man. Or even an Oldman... :)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,758
    On the Elgin Marbles, Hunt and Elgin took them illegally by exceeding authority given to them. HOWEVER his actions were retrospectively approved by the Ottomans. FURTHER HOWEVER, the Greeks dispute that the Ottomans as an occupying power had the right to make that decision and therefore demand them back.

    From the ODNB - the last bit left in for LOLs after some comments about the French upthread:

    In May 1801, Elgin obtained a firman, an official letter from the Ottoman government to the governor and chief justice of Athens requesting them to grant extensive facilities to the artists who were then in Athens. Elgin's chaplain and private secretary, Philip Hunt, who had recently visited Athens, had been appalled to see the severe damage that was being inflicted on the monuments, both by members of the Turkish garrison and by the officers and tourists from western Europe who, from the middle of the eighteenth century, were visiting Greece in large numbers. Although the firman did not give explicit authority to allow the removal of antiquities from the buildings, Hunt, using a mixture of bribes and threats, persuaded the authorities at Athens to permit Elgin's agents to take down, and later export, many of the surviving sculptures of the Parthenon and other buildings. His agents also arranged excavations on the Acropolis and elsewhere, amassing a large collection of ancient inscriptions, vases, jewellery, and other antiquities besides sculptures.

    The work of removal continued, with interruptions, with the full co-operation of the authorities in Athens for several years. When, some years later, the French ambassador and others raised doubts with the Ottoman government about the legality of what had been done under the terms of the firman, Elgin and his successors at Constantinople obtained further firmans which gave legitimation under Ottoman law to the removals of the antiquities and their subsequent export.

    As Elgin was returning from Constantinople in 1803 he and his family were arrested by the French government. He was kept, mostly under close arrest, at various locations in France, during which time the French authorities unsuccessfully attempted to incriminate him by drawing him into secret intrigues. Elgin also rejected suggestions deriving from Napoleon that he could obtain his freedom by selling his collection of antiquities to the Louvre which, at that time, was being filled with works of art taken from museums all over Europe.
This discussion has been closed.