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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » NEW PB/Polling Matters podcast: Trump meets Kim and Brexit edg

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited June 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » NEW PB/Polling Matters podcast: Trump meets Kim and Brexit edges closer

On this week’s Polling Matters podcast, Keiran Pedley and Leo Barasi discuss Trump’s historic meeting with Kim Jong Un in Singapore. Keiran and Leo debate the significance of the meeting and what happens now whilst Keiran takes us through the latest polling on Trump in America that shows what his re-election campaign might look like, why he remains in a tough spot and why these negotiations with North Korea could make or break him.

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    First.

    Now walking out.
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    good night.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    @Richard_N technically the lay @ 1.3 will get you a few more pennies
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2018
    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136
    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    SeanT said:

    PS on addiction. I do wonder about the suicide of Anthony Bourdain. Ostensibly he had one of the most enviable lives on the planet.

    Yet his brilliant memoir depicts drug addiction, depression, and intense self destructiveness. All that success was not, it seems, enough to beat the demons. Not in the end.

    Sobering.

    One of the more troubling things about Bourdain and Spade - and many other suicides - is that friends always say something along the lines of "I saw him/her just the other day and they were happy and laughing".

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    SeanT said:

    PS on addiction. I do wonder about the suicide of Anthony Bourdain. Ostensibly he had one of the most enviable lives on the planet.

    Yet his brilliant memoir depicts drug addiction, depression, and intense self destructiveness. All that success was not, it seems, enough to beat the demons. Not in the end.

    Sobering.

    If it was definitely suicide that is

    http://www.crazydaysandnights.net/2018/06/blind-item-9_11.html
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited June 2018
    SeanT said:

    PS on addiction. I do wonder about the suicide of Anthony Bourdain. Ostensibly he had one of the most enviable lives on the planet.

    Yet his brilliant memoir depicts drug addiction, depression, and intense self destructiveness. All that success was not, it seems, enough to beat the demons. Not in the end.

    Sobering.

    Suicide among the successful and famous often at the height of their powers is one of the great mysteries. Tony Scott and Terence Donovan both of who I had met on occasions still puzzles me every time I see their work. The excellent documentary 'McQueen' which is out at the moment casts some light on the subject and even if it doesn't it's brilliantly put together and shows the difficulty of believing in your own talent.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,842
    SeanT said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    "I saw that John Crace in The Guardian, a former addict himself I was surprised to learn, was also full of praise.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/22/patrick-melrose-captures-heroin-addiction-perfectly-it-brought-my-memories-flooding-back


    "

    That's a fantastically honest article, Crace's life weirdly mirrors mine, he must indeed be a similar age to me. We probably had the same dealers.

    Luckily my depressions and anxieties aren't as bad as his (though I can still wake in a fetal position, almost suicidal from some inexplicable, sudden surge of self hate and/or futility (happily this is rare)).

    I have learned to self-medicate differently, with a mix of fine wine, hard exercise, country walks, intriguing travel and mildly kinky sex. Plus lots of interaction with my kids and friends and wife, and yet, also, isolation when I need to be quiet and to calm the demons.

    The fact is, I need ALL of that to replace the deadly yet seductive quietus of heroin. That is how powerful it is.

    Like button needed. Care for yourself.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Tim_B said:

    SeanT said:

    PS on addiction. I do wonder about the suicide of Anthony Bourdain. Ostensibly he had one of the most enviable lives on the planet.

    Yet his brilliant memoir depicts drug addiction, depression, and intense self destructiveness. All that success was not, it seems, enough to beat the demons. Not in the end.

    Sobering.

    One of the more troubling things about Bourdain and Spade - and many other suicides - is that friends always say something along the lines of "I saw him/her just the other day and they were happy and laughing".

    My only thought on this, as someone who lost a nephew aged 24 to suicide, is that suicide comes from that most personal space, that part kept from public view. I think it emanates from a failure to square who we think we are or should be, with things we have done that are incompatible with that self-image at a crushingly central level. It arises, I believe, from a despair at the impossibility of squaring things that truly matter, things at the core of who we are - of seeing no way out to where things can make sense or be happy again.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
    To exit the EU. Beyond that it is the govt job to work out
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    SeanT said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    "I saw that John Crace in The Guardian, a former addict himself I was surprised to learn, was also full of praise.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/may/22/patrick-melrose-captures-heroin-addiction-perfectly-it-brought-my-memories-flooding-back


    "

    That's a fantastically honest article, Crace's life weirdly mirrors mine, he must indeed be a similar age to me. We probably had the same dealers.

    Luckily my depressions and anxieties aren't as bad as his (though I can still wake in a fetal position, almost suicidal from some inexplicable, sudden surge of self hate and/or futility (happily this is rare)).

    I have learned to self-medicate differently, with a mix of fine wine, hard exercise, country walks, intriguing travel and mildly kinky sex. Plus lots of interaction with my kids and friends and wife, and yet, also, isolation when I need to be quiet and to calm the demons.

    The fact is, I need ALL of that to replace the deadly yet seductive quietus of heroin. That is how powerful it is.

    Sean, just finished reading "Mindsight" by Daniel Siegel. If you have not read it, I think you would find it very interesting and useful. It melds physical and chemical neuroscience with the psychological therapy of addiction, PTSD, OCD and various other debilitating neurological conditions, illustrated with compelling case studies, one of which made me sit up in recognition.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770727691935744?s=21
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770999629615108?s=21
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,884
    There was a lot of egregious nonsense written about a potential "Five Eyes" GPS system on the last thread. This is the situation: the US DARPA is already working on the successor to GPS called ASPN. This is a completely American endeavour that they may choose to allow key allies to use in a probably degraded and definitely monitored form. The problem with any Five Eyes system is that one of the eyes is very much bigger than the other four so there will never be equality of access or function.

    Galileo on the other hand is built and operated by a group of peers who are in the same political and economic structure; the EU.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    Dura_Ace said:

    There was a lot of egregious nonsense written about a potential "Five Eyes" GPS system on the last thread. This is the situation: the US DARPA is already working on the successor to GPS called ASPN. This is a completely American endeavour that they may choose to allow key allies to use in a probably degraded and definitely monitored form. The problem with any Five Eyes system is that one of the eyes is very much bigger than the other four so there will never be equality of access or function.

    Galileo on the other hand is built and operated by a group of peers who are in the same political and economic structure; the EU.

    either way, the UK will have to find a lot of money to overcome the current situation....taking back control seems more expensive all the time
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    Dura_Ace said:

    There was a lot of egregious nonsense written about a potential "Five Eyes" GPS system on the last thread. This is the situation: the US DARPA is already working on the successor to GPS called ASPN. This is a completely American endeavour that they may choose to allow key allies to use in a probably degraded and definitely monitored form. The problem with any Five Eyes system is that one of the eyes is very much bigger than the other four so there will never be equality of access or function.

    Galileo on the other hand is built and operated by a group of peers who are in the same political and economic structure; the EU.

    either way, the UK will have to find a lot of money to overcome the current situation....taking back control seems more expensive all the time
    It was already spending money on the Galileo mission.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,884
    RobD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    There was a lot of egregious nonsense written about a potential "Five Eyes" GPS system on the last thread. This is the situation: the US DARPA is already working on the successor to GPS called ASPN. This is a completely American endeavour that they may choose to allow key allies to use in a probably degraded and definitely monitored form. The problem with any Five Eyes system is that one of the eyes is very much bigger than the other four so there will never be equality of access or function.

    Galileo on the other hand is built and operated by a group of peers who are in the same political and economic structure; the EU.

    either way, the UK will have to find a lot of money to overcome the current situation....taking back control seems more expensive all the time
    It was already spending money on the Galileo mission.
    The difference is the UK was a big player in Galileo. The security centre for the system was in the UK but it's moving to Spain now. The UK will get from ASPN exactly what the US chooses to give us.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    Dura_Ace said:

    RobD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    There was a lot of egregious nonsense written about a potential "Five Eyes" GPS system on the last thread. This is the situation: the US DARPA is already working on the successor to GPS called ASPN. This is a completely American endeavour that they may choose to allow key allies to use in a probably degraded and definitely monitored form. The problem with any Five Eyes system is that one of the eyes is very much bigger than the other four so there will never be equality of access or function.

    Galileo on the other hand is built and operated by a group of peers who are in the same political and economic structure; the EU.

    either way, the UK will have to find a lot of money to overcome the current situation....taking back control seems more expensive all the time
    It was already spending money on the Galileo mission.
    The difference is the UK was a big player in Galileo. The security centre for the system was in the UK but it's moving to Spain now. The UK will get from ASPN exactly what the US chooses to give us.
    Or exactly what Donald Trump wants to give us....I'm not holding my breath for a cut price as No10 is not exactly top of his Xmas card list, maybe his visit next month will yield some results?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,884
    There was also talk of partnering with Australia which is just a ludicrous suggestion. Australia is one of the few countries in the world that is covered by all six jurisdictional based positioning systems (USA GPS, EU Galileo, Russia GLONASS, China Beidou, Japan QZSS, India IRNSS) and they have their own ground based location project which specifically suits their needs. The chances of Australia contributing $1 to to a UK led positioning system program (BrexitNet) is 0%.
  • PîtPît Posts: 2

    Dura_Ace said:

    RobD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    There was a lot of egregious nonsense written about a potential "Five Eyes" GPS system on the last thread. This is the situation: the US DARPA is already working on the successor to GPS called ASPN. This is a completely American endeavour that they may choose to allow key allies to use in a probably degraded and definitely monitored form. The problem with any Five Eyes system is that one of the eyes is very much bigger than the other four so there will never be equality of access or function.

    Galileo on the other hand is built and operated by a group of peers who are in the same political and economic structure; the EU.

    either way, the UK will have to find a lot of money to overcome the current situation....taking back control seems more expensive all the time
    It was already spending money on the Galileo mission.
    The difference is the UK was a big player in Galileo. The security centre for the system was in the UK but it's moving to Spain now. The UK will get from ASPN exactly what the US chooses to give us.
    Or exactly what Donald Trump wants to give us....I'm not holding my breath for a cut price as No10 is not exactly top of his Xmas card list, maybe his visit next month will yield some results?
    Are any big Commons Brexit-related votes expected around the time of his visit, 13 July? He came to Britain before a day after the EUref.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    Pît said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    RobD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    There was a lot of egregious nonsense written about a potential "Five Eyes" GPS system on the last thread. This is the situation: the US DARPA is already working on the successor to GPS called ASPN. This is a completely American endeavour that they may choose to allow key allies to use in a probably degraded and definitely monitored form. The problem with any Five Eyes system is that one of the eyes is very much bigger than the other four so there will never be equality of access or function.

    Galileo on the other hand is built and operated by a group of peers who are in the same political and economic structure; the EU.

    either way, the UK will have to find a lot of money to overcome the current situation....taking back control seems more expensive all the time
    It was already spending money on the Galileo mission.
    The difference is the UK was a big player in Galileo. The security centre for the system was in the UK but it's moving to Spain now. The UK will get from ASPN exactly what the US chooses to give us.
    Or exactly what Donald Trump wants to give us....I'm not holding my breath for a cut price as No10 is not exactly top of his Xmas card list, maybe his visit next month will yield some results?
    Are any big Commons Brexit-related votes expected around the time of his visit, 13 July? He came to Britain before a day after the EUref.
    I know the Tory whips are short of numbers but it may be a big ask to sneak him through the lobby, after his Singapore success Donald may be in a more generous frame of mind so hope springs eternal. I suspect No10 wont be pushing a big photo spread of the pair holding hands again this time - thats if TM is still there by then
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited June 2018
    SeanT said:

    "I have learned to self-medicate differently, with a mix of fine wine, hard exercise, country walks, intriguing travel and mildly kinky sex. Plus lots of interaction with my kids and friends and wife, and yet, also, isolation when I need to be quiet and to calm the demons."

    Well, you're listing the healthy things the rest of us should be lucky enough (sometimes) to experience. Keep on keeping on.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,590

    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770727691935744?s=21
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770999629615108?s=21
    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The Galileo issue is a good example of the latter. The fact that member states took a vote on the issue, which was not,unanimous, and was swayed by the Commission recommendation, is pretty clear evidence that an alternative outcome was equally possible, whatever Barnier’s claims about ‘principle’.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Dura_Ace said:

    There was also talk of partnering with Australia which is just a ludicrous suggestion. Australia is one of the few countries in the world that is covered by all six jurisdictional based positioning systems (USA GPS, EU Galileo, Russia GLONASS, China Beidou, Japan QZSS, India IRNSS) and they have their own ground based location project which specifically suits their needs. The chances of Australia contributing $1 to to a UK led positioning system program (BrexitNet) is 0%.

    The UK is already "covered" by GPS as well, will be by EU Galileo, and I suspect it has coverage from others as well. That doesn't mean it doesn't want its own system.

    The chances obviously aren't "0%", or the conversation wouldn't be taking place. Australia is looking to grow and develop its military and security forces and the UK is a natural partner.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Nigelb said:

    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The Galileo issue is a good example of the latter. The fact that member states took a vote on the issue, which was not,unanimous, and was swayed by the Commission recommendation, is pretty clear evidence that an alternative outcome was equally possible, whatever Barnier’s claims about ‘principle’.

    It's actually a better example of Brexiteers aversion to reality.

    Whatever their desired outcome, the reality is different. They took a vote. We lost. Get over it...

    "Wish harder" is not a sensible negotiating position for the HMG, but is the Brexiteer solution to every problem.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Nigelb said:

    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770727691935744?s=21
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770999629615108?s=21
    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The Galileo issue is a good example of the latter. The fact that member states took a vote on the issue, which was not,unanimous, and was swayed by the Commission recommendation, is pretty clear evidence that an alternative outcome was equally possible, whatever Barnier’s claims about ‘principle’.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
    This is actually a real example of where the UK Government is actually preparing for no deal. And it can, because we do have the expertise, knowledge, money, science and security apparatus to do it, and even the spaceports in the medium term, to do it and do it well.

    We talk about the EU as if it were the Borg. In reality, the EU is gravely weakened by the UK’s exit and will become smaller, and more defensive, nervous and inwardly focussed, as a result.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,669

    Nigelb said:

    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770727691935744?s=21
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770999629615108?s=21
    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The Galileo issue is a good example of the latter. The fact that member states took a vote on the issue, which was not,unanimous, and was swayed by the Commission recommendation, is pretty clear evidence that an alternative outcome was equally possible, whatever Barnier’s claims about ‘principle’.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
    This is actually a real example of where the UK Government is actually preparing for no deal. And it can, because we do have the expertise, knowledge, money, science and security apparatus to do it, and even the spaceports in the medium term, to do it and do it well.

    We talk about the EU as if it were the Borg. In reality, the EU is gravely weakened by the UK’s exit and will become smaller, and more defensive, nervous and inwardly focussed, as a result.
    Both may be true to a certain extent, but neither are a cause for celebration.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082

    Nigelb said:

    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770727691935744?s=21
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770999629615108?s=21
    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The Galileo issue is a good example of the latter. The fact that member states took a vote on the issue, which was not,unanimous, and was swayed by the Commission recommendation, is pretty clear evidence that an alternative outcome was equally possible, whatever Barnier’s claims about ‘principle’.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
    This is actually a real example of where the UK Government is actually preparing for no deal. And it can, because we do have the expertise, knowledge, money, science and security apparatus to do it, and even the spaceports in the medium term, to do it and do it well.

    We talk about the EU as if it were the Borg. In reality, the EU is gravely weakened by the UK’s exit and will become smaller, and more defensive, nervous and inwardly focussed, as a result.
    Exactly what Putin wanted.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770727691935744?s=21
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770999629615108?s=21
    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The Galileo issue is a good example of the latter. The fact that member states took a vote on the issue, which was not,unanimous, and was swayed by the Commission recommendation, is pretty clear evidence that an alternative outcome was equally possible, whatever Barnier’s claims about ‘principle’.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
    This is actually a real example of where the UK Government is actually preparing for no deal. And it can, because we do have the expertise, knowledge, money, science and security apparatus to do it, and even the spaceports in the medium term, to do it and do it well.

    We talk about the EU as if it were the Borg. In reality, the EU is gravely weakened by the UK’s exit and will become smaller, and more defensive, nervous and inwardly focussed, as a result.
    Exactly what Putin wanted.
    Putin runs an economic backwater with a GDP significantly less than ours. We could take on Putin unilaterally if we wanted to.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good morning, everyone.

    Welcome to PB, Mr. Pit.

    Mr. Eagles, your World Cup tips coming up this afternoon?

    Dr. Foxy, Hitler was a vegetarian*. Guilt by association is dumb (and if Remain had spent more time on the EU and less on pointing at Farage and making rude noises, they probably would've won).

    *Vegetarian was defined a bit more loosely back then, including eating things like kidney. That might sound daft, but in 50 years or so people might feel the same about vegetarians eating fish.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,778

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770727691935744?s=21
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770999629615108?s=21
    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The Galileo issue is a good example of the latter. The fact that member states took a vote on the issue, which was not,unanimous, and was swayed by the Commission recommendation, is pretty clear evidence that an alternative outcome was equally possible, whatever Barnier’s claims about ‘principle’.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
    This is actually a real example of where the UK Government is actually preparing for no deal. And it can, because we do have the expertise, knowledge, money, science and security apparatus to do it, and even the spaceports in the medium term, to do it and do it well.

    We talk about the EU as if it were the Borg. In reality, the EU is gravely weakened by the UK’s exit and will become smaller, and more defensive, nervous and inwardly focussed, as a result.
    Exactly what Putin wanted.
    Putin runs an economic backwater with a GDP significantly less than ours. We could take on Putin unilaterally if we wanted to.
    Russia's GDP recently slipped behind Australia.

    Next year, it will likely drop below Spain and South Korea.

    Forget the G7, it might not even make it into the top 20 in five years time.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    This is actually a real example of where the UK Government is actually preparing for no deal. And it can, because we do have the expertise, knowledge, money, science and security apparatus to do it, and even the spaceports in the medium term, to do it and do it well.

    The NHS costs £1bn

    Lets spend it on satellites instead !

    Coming to a bus near you...
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770727691935744?s=21
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770999629615108?s=21
    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The Galileo issue is a good example of the latter. The fact that member states took a vote on the issue, which was not,unanimous, and was swayed by the Commission recommendation, is pretty clear evidence that an alternative outcome was equally possible, whatever Barnier’s claims about ‘principle’.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
    This is actually a real example of where the UK Government is actually preparing for no deal. And it can, because we do have the expertise, knowledge, money, science and security apparatus to do it, and even the spaceports in the medium term, to do it and do it well.

    We talk about the EU as if it were the Borg. In reality, the EU is gravely weakened by the UK’s exit and will become smaller, and more defensive, nervous and inwardly focussed, as a result.
    Exactly what Putin wanted.
    Putin runs an economic backwater with a GDP significantly less than ours. We could take on Putin unilaterally if we wanted to.
    Russia's GDP recently slipped behind Australia.

    Next year, it will likely drop below Spain and South Korea.

    Forget the G7, it might not even make it into the top 20 in five years time.
    The thread header is illustrated with a picture of the North Korean leader. GDP is not a reliable measure of disruptiveness or threat. Russia in economic decline is if anything likely to be more disruptive and dangerous as it casts around still more frantically for ways of restoring past glory.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770727691935744?s=21
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770999629615108?s=21
    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The Galileo issue is a good example of the latter. The fact that member states took a vote on the issue, which was not,unanimous, and was swayed by the Commission recommendation, is pretty clear evidence that an alternative outcome was equally possible, whatever Barnier’s claims about ‘principle’.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
    This is actually a real example of where the UK Government is actually preparing for no deal. And it can, because we do have the expertise, knowledge, money, science and security apparatus to do it, and even the spaceports in the medium term, to do it and do it well.

    We talk about the EU as if it were the Borg. In reality, the EU is gravely weakened by the UK’s exit and will become smaller, and more defensive, nervous and inwardly focussed, as a result.
    Exactly what Putin wanted.
    Putin runs an economic backwater with a GDP significantly less than ours. We could take on Putin unilaterally if we wanted to.
    Russia's GDP recently slipped behind Australia.

    Next year, it will likely drop below Spain and South Korea.

    Forget the G7, it might not even make it into the top 20 in five years time.
    And yet Putin has leveraged Russia's influence abroad very effectively. Mostly short term tactical successes such as Brexit, Trump, and Syria. Always building on and feeding local discontents of course, and while serving his short term interests, probably doing long term damage to Russia.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,884



    The UK is already "covered" by GPS as well, will be by EU Galileo, and I suspect it has coverage from others as well. That doesn't mean it doesn't want its own system.

    The chances obviously aren't "0%", or the conversation wouldn't be taking place. Australia is looking to grow and develop its military and security forces and the UK is a natural partner.

    The natural partner for any hypothetical BrexitNet would be Israel. Another middleweight power that loves to hedge their bets and has a very healthy tech industry. We already have strong defence ties with them (they are doing the new air defence system for the Falklands) and, just like us, they think they're special.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    Dura_Ace said:



    The UK is already "covered" by GPS as well, will be by EU Galileo, and I suspect it has coverage from others as well. That doesn't mean it doesn't want its own system.

    The chances obviously aren't "0%", or the conversation wouldn't be taking place. Australia is looking to grow and develop its military and security forces and the UK is a natural partner.

    The natural partner for any hypothetical BrexitNet would be Israel. Another middleweight power that loves to hedge their bets and has a very healthy tech industry. We already have strong defence ties with them (they are doing the new air defence system for the Falklands) and, just like us, they think they're special.
    Getting into bed with ANY Middle Eastern country ought to be a total No No for GB.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770727691935744?s=21
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770999629615108?s=21
    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The Galileo issue is a good example of the latter. The fact that member states took a vote on the issue, which was not,unanimous, and was swayed by the Commission recommendation, is pretty clear evidence that an alternative outcome was equally possible, whatever Barnier’s claims about ‘principle’.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
    in the medium term, to do it and do it well.

    We talk about the EU as if it were the Borg. In reality, the EU is gravely weakened by the UK’s exit and will become smaller, and more defensive, nervous and inwardly focussed, as a result.
    Exactly what Putin wanted.
    Putin runs an economic backwater with a GDP significantly less than ours. We could take on Putin unilaterally if we wanted to.
    Russia's GDP recently slipped behind Australia.

    Next year, it will likely drop below Spain and South Korea.

    Forget the G7, it might not even make it into the top 20 in five years time.
    The thread header is illustrated with a picture of the North Korean leader. GDP is not a reliable measure of disruptiveness or threat. Russia in economic decline is if anything likely to be more disruptive and dangerous as it casts around still more frantically for ways of restoring past glory.
    North Korea has to maintain control with slave camps and complete lockdown about the outside world. There will come a point where the income gap wil start making Russians upset. Plus it will mean Europe will be more wiling to put sanctions on.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    California is to vote on partition. Could have interesting implications for the Senate and Electoral College if permitted:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-us-canada-44471277
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. 1000, it was months, maybe a year, ago now, but I saw some startling figures for Russia regarding the number of schools, hospitals and suchlike over a decade or two. The numbers have plummeted. Whilst Putin has definitely beefed up the military, including unconventional and new measures (cyber stuff, but I'd guess in other areas too), the basic infrastructure of the state is definitely going in the other direction.

    Sanctions won't be helping, of course, but then, using chemical weapons and having a role in the downing of a passenger plane aren't exactly the behavioural norms of the civilised world.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,082
    Dura_Ace said:



    The UK is already "covered" by GPS as well, will be by EU Galileo, and I suspect it has coverage from others as well. That doesn't mean it doesn't want its own system.

    The chances obviously aren't "0%", or the conversation wouldn't be taking place. Australia is looking to grow and develop its military and security forces and the UK is a natural partner.

    The natural partner for any hypothetical BrexitNet would be Israel. Another middleweight power that loves to hedge their bets and has a very healthy tech industry. We already have strong defence ties with them (they are doing the new air defence system for the Falklands) and, just like us, they think they're special.
    I can see that lasting under PM Jezza!

    Do we really need such a system? after all we do not have it at present. It seems unnessecary duplication to me.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,780
    ydoethur said:
    For me it simply says the project goes on. The answer to every problem is more Europe, never less. Whilst more cognisant than most such material of the rapidly diminishing role and status of Europe the answer is inevitably that the EU has to engage more on the world stage.

    The most interesting point is that anyone who thinks that the June Summit is going to be about resolving blockages in Brexit is almost certainly wrong. The EU has a massive agenda of its own to deal with, specifically how to respond to the new Italian government and the challenges it makes to the current EZ arrangements. Merkel's attention is likely to be elsewhere. Whether this proves a good or a bad thing for us is hard to predict.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Dura_Ace said:



    The UK is already "covered" by GPS as well, will be by EU Galileo, and I suspect it has coverage from others as well. That doesn't mean it doesn't want its own system.

    The chances obviously aren't "0%", or the conversation wouldn't be taking place. Australia is looking to grow and develop its military and security forces and the UK is a natural partner.

    The natural partner for any hypothetical BrexitNet would be Israel. Another middleweight power that loves to hedge their bets and has a very healthy tech industry. We already have strong defence ties with them (they are doing the new air defence system for the Falklands) and, just like us, they think they're special.
    Perhaps. I wouldn’t have a problem with that.

    I note the FT wrote a good article on this several weeks ago. Like I said last night, the UK is exploring options via its five eyes alliance, and has been doing ‘no deal’ planning for some time:

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/bb6bae54-5c3f-11e8-ad91-e01af256df68
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Elliot said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The Galileo issue is a good example of the latter. The fact that member states took a vote on the issue, which was not,unanimous, and was swayed by the Commission recommendation, is pretty clear evidence that an alternative outcome was equally possible, whatever Barnier’s claims about ‘principle’.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
    in the medium term, to do it and do it well.

    We talk about the EU as if it were the Borg. In reality, the EU is gravely weakened by the UK’s exit and will become smaller, and more defensive, nervous and inwardly focussed, as a result.
    Exactly what Putin wanted.
    Putin runs an economic backwater with a GDP significantly less than ours. We could take on Putin unilaterally if we wanted to.
    Russia's GDP recently slipped behind Australia.

    Next year, it will likely drop below Spain and South Korea.

    Forget the G7, it might not even make it into the top 20 in five years time.
    The thread header is illustrated with a picture of the North Korean leader. GDP is not a reliable measure of disruptiveness or threat. Russia in economic decline is if anything likely to be more disruptive and dangerous as it casts around still more frantically for ways of restoring past glory.
    North Korea has to maintain control with slave camps and complete lockdown about the outside world. There will come a point where the income gap wil start making Russians upset. Plus it will mean Europe will be more wiling to put sanctions on.
    The best thing Europe can do is get fracking. Their animosity to Russia is severely tempered by their reliance on Russian oil and gas, find another source and then proper sancions can hit Putin very hard.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Scott_P said:

    This is actually a real example of where the UK Government is actually preparing for no deal. And it can, because we do have the expertise, knowledge, money, science and security apparatus to do it, and even the spaceports in the medium term, to do it and do it well.

    The NHS costs £1bn

    Lets spend it on satellites instead !

    Coming to a bus near you...
    Current cost estimates are £3.7bn, but I suspect it would end up being more like £6-7bn.

    The cost of one new aircraft carrier, or about 50 x F35s. It would also support 5,000+ UK jobs over a number of years for a new independent system.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770727691935744?s=21
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770999629615108?s=21
    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The Galileo issue is a good example of the latter. The fact that member states took a vote on the issue, which was not,unanimous, and was swayed by the Commission recommendation, is pretty clear evidence that an alternative outcome was equally possible, whatever Barnier’s claims about ‘principle’.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
    This is actually a real example of where the UK Government is actually preparing for no deal. And it can, because we do have the expertise, knowledge, money, science and security apparatus to do it, and even the spaceports in the medium term, to do it and do it well.

    We talk about the EU as if it were the Borg. In reality, the EU is gravely weakened by the UK’s exit and will become smaller, and more defensive, nervous and inwardly focussed, as a result.
    Exactly what Putin wanted.
    And a choice it is making itself.

    The UK wanted to collaborate on this.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770727691935744?s=21
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770999629615108?s=21
    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The Galileo issue is a good example of the latter. The fact that member states took a vote on the issue, which was not,unanimous, and was swayed by the Commission recommendation, is pretty clear evidence that an alternative outcome was equally possible, whatever Barnier’s claims about ‘principle’.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
    This is actually a real example of where the UK Government is actually preparing for no deal. And it can, because we do have the expertise, knowledge, money, science and security apparatus to do it, and even the spaceports in the medium term, to do it and do it well.

    We talk about the EU as if it were the Borg. In reality, the EU is gravely weakened by the UK’s exit and will become smaller, and more defensive, nervous and inwardly focussed, as a result.
    Exactly what Putin wanted.
    And a choice it is making itself.

    The UK wanted to collaborate on this.
    The trouble is thanks to Brexit the UK is no longer as desirable a partner on any project. Who knows when we might choose to walk out? Brexit Britain is diminished.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Recidivist, so the EU doesn't want to receive any British intelligence regarding terrorism?

    They're cherrypicking, all day long, pausing only to try and appropriate Northern Ireland and impose a customs barrier within a nation-state.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    edited June 2018

    Dura_Ace said:



    The UK is already "covered" by GPS as well, will be by EU Galileo, and I suspect it has coverage from others as well. That doesn't mean it doesn't want its own system.

    The chances obviously aren't "0%", or the conversation wouldn't be taking place. Australia is looking to grow and develop its military and security forces and the UK is a natural partner.

    The natural partner for any hypothetical BrexitNet would be Israel. Another middleweight power that loves to hedge their bets and has a very healthy tech industry. We already have strong defence ties with them (they are doing the new air defence system for the Falklands) and, just like us, they think they're special.
    Getting into bed with ANY Middle Eastern country ought to be a total No No for GB.
    Well, we would certainly have to ask the Saudis' permission before getting into bed with any of their near neighbours. Ironically Israel is now the country with which the House of Saud would be comfortable.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,884
    edited June 2018
    Foxy said:



    Do we really need such a system? after all we do not have it at present. It seems unnessecary duplication to me.

    Positioning systems have become absolutely critical to just about every defence effort. We have 100% reliance on GPS which, no matter how special one's relationship with the provider, is obviously a risk. The US currently degrades GPS over Afghanistan which is fine because it happens to align with our interests but the day may come when interests do not align. It's for this reason in particular that the EU, Japan and India have chosen to build their own positioning systems.


    We have two and a half choices: 1. buy our way back into Galileo eating as much shit as necessary on the way. 2. Tag along with the US on ASPN. Get what we're given and probably be surveilled in the process. This recreates the GPS dependency but in a worse way. 2.5 Build our own system with one or more partners. Which requires a lot of money and wishful thinking to turn into a viable proposition.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    Sandpit said:

    Elliot said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The Galileo issue is a good example of the latter. The fact that member states took a vote on the issue, which was not,unanimous, and was swayed by the Commission recommendation, is pretty clear evidence that an alternative outcome was equally possible, whatever Barnier’s claims about ‘principle’.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
    in the medium term, to do it and do it well.

    We talk about the EU as if it were the Borg. In reality, the EU is gravely weakened by the UK’s exit and will become smaller, and more defensive, nervous and inwardly focussed, as a result.
    Exactly what Putin wanted.
    Putin runs an economic backwater with a GDP significantly less than ours. We could take on Putin unilaterally if we wanted to.
    Russia's GDP recently slipped behind Australia.

    Next year, it will likely drop below Spain and South Korea.

    Forget the G7, it might not even make it into the top 20 in five years time.
    The thread header is illustrated with a picture of the North Korean leader. GDP is not a reliable measure of disruptiveness or threat. Russia in economic decline is if anything likely to be more disruptive and dangerous as it casts around still more frantically for ways of restoring past glory.
    North Korea has to maintain control with slave camps and complete lockdown about the outside world. There will come a point where the income gap wil start making Russians upset. Plus it will mean Europe will be more wiling to put sanctions on.
    The best thing Europe can do is get fracking. Their animosity to Russia is severely tempered by their reliance on Russian oil and gas, find another source and then proper sancions can hit Putin very hard.
    I politely pointed this out to some bizarre groups of people called "nannas against fracking". Their response was not very grandmotherly like.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    The Galileo project was started by ESA.

    For those Remainers who don’t understand, ESA is not the EU. ESA contains members not in the EU (such as Switzerland & Norway), and there are EU members not in ESA (such as Bulgaria & Romania). This is just the same as all the European science projects (e.g., CERN or ESO, they are nothing to do with the EU, they predate the EU and their membership is not coincident with the EU).

    According to wiki, other members of Galileo include Morocco, Israel and the Ukraine. Last time I looked, they were not in the EU or in ESA. (Obviously, the other non-EU but ESA countries such as Norway and Switzerland are in Galileo). Again, according to wiki, China was in Galileo, but withdrew because it didn’t think the Europeans could fund it and carry it our successfully.

    Given such a disparate membership, there is no reason for us to be excluded from Galileo. If we have contributed skills, expertise and money to the Galileo project, and are now being excluded, then that is theft.

    Ultimately, in all science projects like this, if politicians meddle and interfere in the science (for example, by deciding that the best technical group has to be excluded on political grounds), then that makes the project more expensive, dispirits the scientists working on it, and makes it more likely the project will fail (or get seriously delayed).

    It seems to me that the EU is clearly in the wrong on this -- but it is no surprise that the familiar bleating voices are tellings us: “Punishment beatings -- this is what we must expect”.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Notme, people are infantile on energy policy. They want it clean, cheap, sustainable, with security of supply. They want fairy dust.

    We should frack on.

    Mr. Cwsc, quite.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,756
    Alistair said:
    'Pointless SNP stunt that's going to put off everyone except hardened cybernats etc.'
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038


    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770727691935744?s=21
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770999629615108?s=21
    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
    We talk about the EU as if it were the Borg. In reality, the EU is gravely weakened by the UK’s exit and will become smaller, and more defensive, nervous and inwardly focussed, as a result.
    Exactly what Putin wanted.
    And a choice it is making itself.

    The UK wanted to collaborate on this.
    The trouble is thanks to Brexit the UK is no longer as desirable a partner on any project. Who knows when we might choose to walk out? Brexit Britain is diminished.
    That’s a silly argument. The UK works and collaborates in close treaty arrangements with countries around the world, and has always met its obligations. It isn’t about to walk out of NATO or fiveeyes, and nor is there any realistic chance it would do so.

    The UK has been clear it wants to collaborate closely on foreign and security policy with the EU. The EU is telling it (on Galileo at least) to jog on.

    There are some who always blame the EU. There are others who never do. But, by doing this, the EU makes divergence a necessity and makes it much less likely a future UK government will ever see its in our national interest again to rejoin.

    Things will have moved on.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,884



    Current cost estimates are £3.7bn, but I suspect it would end up being more like £6-7bn.

    The cost of one new aircraft carrier, or about 50 x F35s. It would also support 5,000+ UK jobs over a number of years for a new independent system.

    The QEC carriers were about 3bn each.

    LRIP 12 F-35s fly away for $80 - 85m so fifty of them would also be about 3bn.

    Galileo is going to cost 8bn quid. Maybe the UK can build a system for less if David Davis is in charge of the program.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293
    This is a massive foreign policy victory for Trump. Of course there have been a few times when North Korea has burned the USA by not keeping to agreements, we can only wait and see.
    The odd way that some journalists have allowed their Trump Derangement Syndrome (similar sounding Bush Derangement Syndrome, Sarah Palin Derangement Syndrome and Brexit denial Syndromes are commonly present in patients that present with symptoms, but past infections do not build up any kind of immunity, but increase susceptibility) to 'trump' this as somehow bad news, is just weird. Because Kim Jon Ung is a 'bad man', then trying to reach agreement with a bad man (to be less bad) is in itself a 'bad thing'.

    Trump has done more to earn a Nobel Peace Prize than his predecessor.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    Dura_Ace said:



    Current cost estimates are £3.7bn, but I suspect it would end up being more like £6-7bn.

    The cost of one new aircraft carrier, or about 50 x F35s. It would also support 5,000+ UK jobs over a number of years for a new independent system.

    Galileo is going to cost 8bn quid. Maybe the UK can build a system for less if David Davis is in charge of the program.
    Or because technology has moved on substantially since the Galileo design was frozen years ago?

    The EU keeps treating us as a “third country” - we should start acting as one.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,349
    edited June 2018
    I'd be happy to have energy bills split into two components. The basic rate which would be low, and a separate add-on for those who want to show their green credentials.

    I'd gain both ways, having solar panels and being paid a premium rate for producing energy even if I use it all myself. I know this is barmy. But a fool (thanks, Ed) and his money ...
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,038
    Dura_Ace said:



    Current cost estimates are £3.7bn, but I suspect it would end up being more like £6-7bn.

    The cost of one new aircraft carrier, or about 50 x F35s. It would also support 5,000+ UK jobs over a number of years for a new independent system.

    The QEC carriers were about 3bn each.

    LRIP 12 F-35s fly away for $80 - 85m so fifty of them would also be about 3bn.

    Galileo is going to cost 8bn quid. Maybe the UK can build a system for less if David Davis is in charge of the program.
    The unit cost of the F35s is actually higher than that but fair enough on the carriers.

    Either way, my point was it isn’t unaffordable. The UK Government commits to big strategic projects of that scale, and more, all the time. HS2 and Crossrail are orders of magnitude more expensive.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,884

    .

    Either way, my point was it isn’t unaffordable. The UK Government commits to big strategic projects of that scale, and more, all the time. HS2 and Crossrail are orders of magnitude more expensive.

    I agree. I think the government can borrow enough money to pay for it and British industry could design and build. It's the fact that we find ourselves in the situation that's a ball scratcher.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited June 2018

    Dura_Ace said:



    Current cost estimates are £3.7bn, but I suspect it would end up being more like £6-7bn.

    The cost of one new aircraft carrier, or about 50 x F35s. It would also support 5,000+ UK jobs over a number of years for a new independent system.

    Galileo is going to cost 8bn quid. Maybe the UK can build a system for less if David Davis is in charge of the program.
    Or because technology has moved on substantially since the Galileo design was frozen years ago?

    The EU keeps treating us as a “third country” - we should start acting as one.
    There is certainly sufficient in the wiki entry for the Galileo project to ring alarm bells as to how the project is being managed & run.

    When politicians meddle in science & technology projects, the result is usually an expensive disaster.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,963
    notme said:

    This is a massive foreign policy victory for Trump. Of course there have been a few times when North Korea has burned the USA by not keeping to agreements, we can only wait and see.
    The odd way that some journalists have allowed their Trump Derangement Syndrome (similar sounding Bush Derangement Syndrome, Sarah Palin Derangement Syndrome and Brexit denial Syndromes are commonly present in patients that present with symptoms, but past infections do not build up any kind of immunity, but increase susceptibility) to 'trump' this as somehow bad news, is just weird. Because Kim Jon Ung is a 'bad man', then trying to reach agreement with a bad man (to be less bad) is in itself a 'bad thing'.

    Trump has done more to earn a Nobel Peace Prize than his predecessor.

    Hard to argue with that.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684
    edited June 2018

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770727691935744?s=21
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770999629615108?s=21
    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The Galileo issue is a good example of the latter. The fact that member states took a vote on the issue, which was not,unanimous, and was swayed by the Commission recommendation, is pretty clear evidence that an alternative outcome was equally possible, whatever Barnier’s claims about ‘principle’.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
    This is actually a real example of where the UK Government is actually preparing for no deal. And it can, because we do have the expertise, knowledge, money, science and security apparatus to do it, and even the spaceports in the medium term, to do it and do it well.

    We talk about the EU as if it were the Borg. In reality, the EU is gravely weakened by the UK’s exit and will become smaller, and more defensive, nervous and inwardly focussed, as a result.
    Exactly what Putin wanted.
    Putin runs an economic backwater with a GDP significantly less than ours. We could take on Putin unilaterally if we wanted to.
    LOL, Cuckoo. Our two bathtubs, 600 admirals and a few infantry.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704

    Dura_Ace said:



    Current cost estimates are £3.7bn, but I suspect it would end up being more like £6-7bn.

    The cost of one new aircraft carrier, or about 50 x F35s. It would also support 5,000+ UK jobs over a number of years for a new independent system.

    Galileo is going to cost 8bn quid. Maybe the UK can build a system for less if David Davis is in charge of the program.
    Or because technology has moved on substantially since the Galileo design was frozen years ago?

    The EU keeps treating us as a “third country” - we should start acting as one.
    There is certainly sufficient in the wiki entry for the Galileo project to ring alarm bells as to how the project is being managed & run.

    When politicians meddle in science & technology projects, the result is usually an expensive disaster.
    But if they can't meddle, what is the point of politicians?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684

    Dura_Ace said:



    Current cost estimates are £3.7bn, but I suspect it would end up being more like £6-7bn.

    The cost of one new aircraft carrier, or about 50 x F35s. It would also support 5,000+ UK jobs over a number of years for a new independent system.

    The QEC carriers were about 3bn each.

    LRIP 12 F-35s fly away for $80 - 85m so fifty of them would also be about 3bn.

    Galileo is going to cost 8bn quid. Maybe the UK can build a system for less if David Davis is in charge of the program.
    The unit cost of the F35s is actually higher than that but fair enough on the carriers.

    Either way, my point was it isn’t unaffordable. The UK Government commits to big strategic projects of that scale, and more, all the time. HS2 and Crossrail are orders of magnitude more expensive.
    Tories shaking the magic money tree again.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684

    Dura_Ace said:



    Current cost estimates are £3.7bn, but I suspect it would end up being more like £6-7bn.

    The cost of one new aircraft carrier, or about 50 x F35s. It would also support 5,000+ UK jobs over a number of years for a new independent system.

    Galileo is going to cost 8bn quid. Maybe the UK can build a system for less if David Davis is in charge of the program.
    Or because technology has moved on substantially since the Galileo design was frozen years ago?

    The EU keeps treating us as a “third country” - we should start acting as one.
    You missed out "world" and we are hamming that up big time as it is
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    Alistair said:
    Unfortunately for him as yougov proved most Scots want neither an indyref2 either before or after Brexit
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited June 2018
    So are we adding a from scratch wholly new self-built positioning system to the reasons we voted Leave? Add it to the upskilling, the better technical education, productivity, etc...
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,684

    Dura_Ace said:



    The UK is already "covered" by GPS as well, will be by EU Galileo, and I suspect it has coverage from others as well. That doesn't mean it doesn't want its own system.

    The chances obviously aren't "0%", or the conversation wouldn't be taking place. Australia is looking to grow and develop its military and security forces and the UK is a natural partner.

    The natural partner for any hypothetical BrexitNet would be Israel. Another middleweight power that loves to hedge their bets and has a very healthy tech industry. We already have strong defence ties with them (they are doing the new air defence system for the Falklands) and, just like us, they think they're special.
    Perhaps. I wouldn’t have a problem with that.

    I note the FT wrote a good article on this several weeks ago. Like I said last night, the UK is exploring options via its five eyes alliance, and has been doing ‘no deal’ planning for some time:

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/bb6bae54-5c3f-11e8-ad91-e01af256df68
    We will be happy with crumbs from the USA table and boast of our "special relationship" as their lapdogs
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    malcolmg said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Current cost estimates are £3.7bn, but I suspect it would end up being more like £6-7bn.

    The cost of one new aircraft carrier, or about 50 x F35s. It would also support 5,000+ UK jobs over a number of years for a new independent system.

    Galileo is going to cost 8bn quid. Maybe the UK can build a system for less if David Davis is in charge of the program.
    Or because technology has moved on substantially since the Galileo design was frozen years ago?

    The EU keeps treating us as a “third country” - we should start acting as one.
    You missed out "world" and we are hamming that up big time as it is
    You think today’s a good day to be bringing up “hamming it up”......?

    Chortle.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,963
    Outrageous. Anyone who truly follows this site knows it has ALWAYS been a bizarre front for LibDem electioneering.

    Hell, we even had a thread a few weeks back that eulogized Lord Rennard.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770727691935744?s=21
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770999629615108?s=21
    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The Galileo issue is a good example of the latter. The fact that member states took a vote on the issue, which was not,unanimous, and was swayed by the Commission recommendation, is pretty clear evidence that an alternative outcome was equally possible, whatever Barnier’s claims about ‘principle’.
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
    This is actually a real example of where the UK Government is actually preparing for no deal. And it can, because we do have the expertise, knowledge, money, science and security apparatus to do it, and even the spaceports in the medium term, to do it and do it well.

    We talk about the EU as if it were the Borg. In reality, the EU is gravely weakened by the UK’s exit and will become smaller, and more defensive, nervous and inwardly focussed, as a result.
    Exactly what Putin wanted.
    Putin runs an economic backwater with a GDP significantly less than ours. We could take on Putin unilaterally if we wanted to.
    There are a number of economic backwaters with big militaries like Russia and Iran who punch above their weight in foreign affairs as a result while a number of economic powerhouses like Singapore and Switzerland have little impact on foreign affairs themselves beyond staging a big summit
  • timmotimmo Posts: 1,469

    Outrageous. Anyone who truly follows this site knows it has ALWAYS been a bizarre front for LibDem electioneering.

    Hell, we even had a thread a few weeks back that eulogized Lord Rennard.....
    Its not new..he did it in various seats at last years general election...keep up man..
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    TOPPING said:

    So are we adding a from scratch wholly new self-built positioning system to the reasons we voted Leave? Add it to the upskilling, the better technical education, productivity, etc...

    A nice little Brexit bonus, I guess. £8bn for the world's most advanced positioning satellites? Worth it.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    Dura_Ace said:



    Current cost estimates are £3.7bn, but I suspect it would end up being more like £6-7bn.

    The cost of one new aircraft carrier, or about 50 x F35s. It would also support 5,000+ UK jobs over a number of years for a new independent system.

    Galileo is going to cost 8bn quid. Maybe the UK can build a system for less if David Davis is in charge of the program.
    Or because technology has moved on substantially since the Galileo design was frozen years ago?

    The EU keeps treating us as a “third country” - we should start acting as one.
    There is certainly sufficient in the wiki entry for the Galileo project to ring alarm bells as to how the project is being managed & run.

    When politicians meddle in science & technology projects, the result is usually an expensive disaster.
    And when the politicians get out of the way we see things like CERN and the ISS, two projects that have advanced human knowledge more in the last two decades than ever before.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    To be fair to OGH he may run the site but I post on PB and have been campaigning for the Tories in Lewisham East and will be out again tonight, we all know OGH is a prominent LD activist but that does not mean we all are
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826


    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    AndyJS said:

    Labour MP for Crewe & Nantwich, Laura Smith:

    "Laura Smith MP
    ‏Verified account @LauraSmithMP

    It isn't acceptable to label the majority of my constituents as racist or to suggest they didn't know what they were voting http://for.It is not the place of politicians to tell the people they were wrong.
    7:58 PM - 13 Jun 2018 "


    twitter.com/LauraSmithMP/status/1006974022343647232

    In fairness to her constituents the government doesn't know what they were voting for either
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770727691935744?s=21
    https://twitter.com/aphclarkson/status/1006770999629615108?s=21
    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
    We talk about the EU as if it were the Borg. In reality, the EU is gravely weakened by the UK’s exit and will become smaller, and more defensive, nervous and inwardly focussed, as a result.
    Exactly what Putin wanted.
    And a choice it is making itself.

    The UK wanted to collaborate on this.
    The trouble is thanks to Brexit the UK is no longer as desirable a partner on any project. Who knows when we might choose to walk out? Brexit Britain is diminished.
    That’s a silly argument. The UK works and collaborates in close treaty arrangements with countries around the world, and has always met its obligations. It isn’t about to walk out of NATO or fiveeyes, and nor is there any realistic chance it would do so.

    The UK has been clear it wants to collaborate closely on foreign and security policy with the EU. The EU is telling it (on Galileo at least) to jog on.

    There are some who always blame the EU. There are others who never do. But, by doing this, the EU makes divergence a necessity and makes it much less likely a future UK government will ever see its in our national interest again to rejoin.

    Things will have moved on.
    Indeed. I would have thought the EU would want us as close allies and neighbours, it seems they don't. So be it we need to live with the hand we're dealt, but it goes both ways. If they don't want intelligence shared etc then so be it.
  • FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    Any reason why we wouldn't join EFTA?
    Not the EEA just EFTA. Is it because it starts with E?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,968

    The Galileo project was started by ESA.

    For those Remainers who don’t understand, ESA is not the EU. ESA contains members not in the EU (such as Switzerland & Norway), and there are EU members not in ESA (such as Bulgaria & Romania). This is just the same as all the European science projects (e.g., CERN or ESO, they are nothing to do with the EU, they predate the EU and their membership is not coincident with the EU).

    According to wiki, other members of Galileo include Morocco, Israel and the Ukraine. Last time I looked, they were not in the EU or in ESA. (Obviously, the other non-EU but ESA countries such as Norway and Switzerland are in Galileo). Again, according to wiki, China was in Galileo, but withdrew because it didn’t think the Europeans could fund it and carry it our successfully.

    Given such a disparate membership, there is no reason for us to be excluded from Galileo. If we have contributed skills, expertise and money to the Galileo project, and are now being excluded, then that is theft.

    Ultimately, in all science projects like this, if politicians meddle and interfere in the science (for example, by deciding that the best technical group has to be excluded on political grounds), then that makes the project more expensive, dispirits the scientists working on it, and makes it more likely the project will fail (or get seriously delayed).

    It seems to me that the EU is clearly in the wrong on this -- but it is no surprise that the familiar bleating voices are tellings us: “Punishment beatings -- this is what we must expect”.

    I see those Remainers who said the UK should give security information free of charge to other European countries have gone very quite.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited June 2018
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    So are we adding a from scratch wholly new self-built positioning system to the reasons we voted Leave? Add it to the upskilling, the better technical education, productivity, etc...

    A nice little Brexit bonus, I guess. £8bn for the world's most advanced positioning satellites? Worth it.
    I must have missed all that on the ballot paper and during the campaign but I’m sure we will all get behind the effort and support the £8bn.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    notme said:

    This is a massive foreign policy victory for Trump. Of course there have been a few times when North Korea has burned the USA by not keeping to agreements, we can only wait and see.
    The odd way that some journalists have allowed their Trump Derangement Syndrome (similar sounding Bush Derangement Syndrome, Sarah Palin Derangement Syndrome and Brexit denial Syndromes are commonly present in patients that present with symptoms, but past infections do not build up any kind of immunity, but increase susceptibility) to 'trump' this as somehow bad news, is just weird. Because Kim Jon Ung is a 'bad man', then trying to reach agreement with a bad man (to be less bad) is in itself a 'bad thing'.

    Trump has done more to earn a Nobel Peace Prize than his predecessor.

    Indeed. Large parts of the US media are letting their obvious dislike (to put it mildly) of Trump overshadow what has been an historic event this week. In their eyes he can do no good.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    philiph said:

    Dura_Ace said:



    Current cost estimates are £3.7bn, but I suspect it would end up being more like £6-7bn.

    The cost of one new aircraft carrier, or about 50 x F35s. It would also support 5,000+ UK jobs over a number of years for a new independent system.

    Galileo is going to cost 8bn quid. Maybe the UK can build a system for less if David Davis is in charge of the program.
    Or because technology has moved on substantially since the Galileo design was frozen years ago?

    The EU keeps treating us as a “third country” - we should start acting as one.
    There is certainly sufficient in the wiki entry for the Galileo project to ring alarm bells as to how the project is being managed & run.

    When politicians meddle in science & technology projects, the result is usually an expensive disaster.
    But if they can't meddle, what is the point of politicians?
    It is best if they meddle in subjects of little or no importance.

    My favourite bit of legislation is the Welsh Labour Government’s “The Well-Being of Future Generations Act” (2015).

    It commits Welsh politicians to act for the future well-being of Wales.

    There was plenty of discussion from the politicians about the wording of the act, and how the future well-being of Wales was being secured by lots of politicians talking about it and drafting legislation that mean it will happen.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    Freggles said:

    Any reason why we wouldn't join EFTA?
    Not the EEA just EFTA. Is it because it starts with E?

    Free movement obligations, IIRC.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704


    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    While that might be true, it’s also because the EU does not particularly care about voter preferences throughout Europe in any event - and the ‘reality’ to which he refers is not immutable.

    The
    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jun/13/eu-member-states-block-uks-access-to-galileo-satellite-programme-after-brexit

    ‘Capitulation’ pretty well described the EU’s desired outcome, though.
    We talk about the EU as if it were the Borg. In reality, the EU is gravely weakened by the UK’s exit and will become smaller, and more defensive, nervous and inwardly focussed, as a result.
    Exactly what Putin wanted.
    And a choice it is making itself.

    The UK wanted to collaborate on this.
    The trouble is thanks to Brexit the UK is no longer as desirable a partner on any project. Who knows when we might choose to walk out? Brexit Britain is diminished.
    That’s a silly argument. The UK works and collaborates in close treaty arrangements with countries around the world, and has always met its obligations. It isn’t about to walk out of NATO or fiveeyes, and nor is there any realistic chance it would do so.

    The UK has been clear it wants to collaborate closely on foreign and security policy with the EU. The EU is telling it (on Galileo at least) to jog on.

    There are some who always blame the EU. There are others who never do. But, by doing this, the EU makes divergence a necessity and makes it much less likely a future UK government will ever see its in our national interest again to rejoin.

    Things will have moved on.
    Indeed. I would have thought the EU would want us as close allies and neighbours, it seems they don't. So be it we need to live with the hand we're dealt, but it goes both ways. If they don't want intelligence shared etc then so be it.
    We know the UK political establishment lives in a bubble.

    There is a possibility, and one which is more close at hand than remote, that the EU posses and uses a supersize super resilient bubble, one so large and strong that it may even be able to repel a weaponised enormo haddock.

    Connection to the common people is a thing of the past. Despite (or because of?) improved communication networks over recent years.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    So are we adding a from scratch wholly new self-built positioning system to the reasons we voted Leave? Add it to the upskilling, the better technical education, productivity, etc...

    A nice little Brexit bonus, I guess. £8bn for the world's most advanced positioning satellites? Worth it.
    I must have missed all that on the ballot paper and during the campaign but I’m sure we will all get behind the effort and support the £8bn.
    Glad to see you're on board already. It's more like £0.8bn for 10 years though, less however much the EU will have to pay us to buy us out of Galileo and however much we retain from it (worth around £2bn).

    I think for the kind of money being asked, it is definitely worth going for it and putting in the most advanced imaging tech vs the outdated stuff going into Galileo.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    Fascinating interview with American political scientist Ian Bremmer, who has written a book “Us vs Them: The Failure of Globalism”, discussing why the West is voting for populists.

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=ehaRquyAYHo
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    So are we adding a from scratch wholly new self-built positioning system to the reasons we voted Leave? Add it to the upskilling, the better technical education, productivity, etc...

    A nice little Brexit bonus, I guess. £8bn for the world's most advanced positioning satellites? Worth it.
    I must have missed all that on the ballot paper and during the campaign but I’m sure we will all get behind the effort and support the £8bn.
    Glad to see you're on board already. It's more like £0.8bn for 10 years though, less however much the EU will have to pay us to buy us out of Galileo and however much we retain from it (worth around £2bn).

    I think for the kind of money being asked, it is definitely worth going for it and putting in the most advanced imaging tech vs the outdated stuff going into Galileo.
    Exactly what they voted for in Boston (Lincs).
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited June 2018
    Just listened to the podcast. If you consider reversing Brexit to be the most important political campaign of your life (as I do) then the last few days have been disappointing.

    A week ago Boris and J R-M's stars were on the wane and Tory Remainers were starting to assert themselves. Brexit was going so badly that the built in Remain majority in Parliament looked like they might mobilize in the national interest. If May was forced out she wouldn't be replaced by one of the headbangers but by Javid. So the fear of the lunatics taking over the asylum was severely reduced.

    Compromises could be made. The wild ones-Boris Fox and the Bulldog-could be fired and the sensible majority could reassert itself. A period of quiet reflection would very likely lead to BINO or even a moratorium while we reflected on where we were going leading to another referendum in a few years time

    But then yesterday it became obvious that Corbyn the treacherous bastard is a Leaver. With the leader of the biggest parliamentary block of Remainers at war with his own troops we're back to square one.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,289

    Outrageous. Anyone who truly follows this site knows it has ALWAYS been a bizarre front for LibDem electioneering.

    Hell, we even had a thread a few weeks back that eulogized Lord Rennard.....
    This site is a front for LibDem electioneering? Maybe that explains their dismal showing in recent GEs...

    They are so bloody fair-minded they keep allowing their electioneering site to be filled with Tory propaganda! :wink:
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    So are we adding a from scratch wholly new self-built positioning system to the reasons we voted Leave? Add it to the upskilling, the better technical education, productivity, etc...

    A nice little Brexit bonus, I guess. £8bn for the world's most advanced positioning satellites? Worth it.
    I must have missed all that on the ballot paper and during the campaign but I’m sure we will all get behind the effort and support the £8bn.
    Glad to see you're on board already. It's more like £0.8bn for 10 years though, less however much the EU will have to pay us to buy us out of Galileo and however much we retain from it (worth around £2bn).

    I think for the kind of money being asked, it is definitely worth going for it and putting in the most advanced imaging tech vs the outdated stuff going into Galileo.
    Less than 3 weeks per annum.

    Still leaves us £17.4bn for the NHS ;)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,981
    Poor Unai Emery
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    MaxPB said:

    TOPPING said:

    So are we adding a from scratch wholly new self-built positioning system to the reasons we voted Leave? Add it to the upskilling, the better technical education, productivity, etc...

    A nice little Brexit bonus, I guess. £8bn for the world's most advanced positioning satellites? Worth it.
    I must have missed all that on the ballot paper and during the campaign but I’m sure we will all get behind the effort and support the £8bn.
    Glad to see you're on board already. It's more like £0.8bn for 10 years though, less however much the EU will have to pay us to buy us out of Galileo and however much we retain from it (worth around £2bn).

    I think for the kind of money being asked, it is definitely worth going for it and putting in the most advanced imaging tech vs the outdated stuff going into Galileo.
    Not only will it be modern tech, we can take advantage of the extraordinary cheap SpaceX launches as well as take the opportunity to bring back huge technical and scientific knowledge that’s been lost over the decades.
  • Just listened to Anna Soubry's speech yesterday. I know if you are pro-Remain you will say her "suck it up" comments were "refreshing" but she is not exactly doing her bit to dispel the notion that Remainers are arrogant and an elite. She also sounds as though she knows she will not be a MP past this Parliament.

    One of the heavily ironic things about hearing the likes of Ken Clarke, Soubry and Grieve wax lyrical about the benefits of openness, immigration and the need to bring down barriers is that they all Barristers, a profession which is the absolute master of erecting numerous arcane barriers to keep out competition and fighting tooth and claw retain their lock on the market.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,981

    Good morning, everyone.

    Welcome to PB, Mr. Pit.

    Mr. Eagles, your World Cup tips coming up this afternoon?

    Dr. Foxy, Hitler was a vegetarian*. Guilt by association is dumb (and if Remain had spent more time on the EU and less on pointing at Farage and making rude noises, they probably would've won).

    *Vegetarian was defined a bit more loosely back then, including eating things like kidney. That might sound daft, but in 50 years or so people might feel the same about vegetarians eating fish.

    I've backed Saudi Arabia to beat Russia
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