Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Local By-Election Review : June 14th 2018

135

Comments

  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    I missed an amazing detail on the New York attorney general filing charges against trump story.

    It is a matter of legal record that Trump knew about the sexual assaults allegation against the former New York AG. Moments after the olf AG leaves office the new AG files charges against Trump on a case who's details have been known for months.

    The implications are incredible.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002

    Off topic, it seems that moving house is hard work.

    After my last house move I said never again.
    It’s a nightmare.
    1st April 1976 was our last move, maybe something to do with the date, but we are as happy 42 years later as the first day we moved in
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited June 2018
    Sandpit said:

    Why did Chope object to the private members bill?

    It appears he objects to pretty much every PM Bill being passed on the nod, without scrutiny, as opposed to any objection regarding this specific measure.
    He co-ordinated with Phillip David's to ensure there was no time for a debate on this bill.

    Then objected because there was no debate. Hypocrite doesn't even begin to describe him.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    De Gea...bloody liability.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    More goalkeeping concussion .... :sunglasses:
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    De Gea LOL
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    ydoethur said:

    He is of course right that lots of parliamentary bills are badly worded and shouldn't be on the statute book for that reason, and or need more scrutiny.

    His argument would have more force by far if it wasn't mostly government bills that DID have parliamentary scrutiny that suffer from this flaw.

    If his wikipedia entry is to be believed he sounds like an odious shite. To think there are current MPs with this set of views, even in the Conservative Party, is astonishing!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Chope
    I am utterly disgusted with Chope and I concur he is an odious member of our party. Please do not judge us all on his unacceptable behaviour
    I don't Big_G.

    You and pretty much all the PB Tories seem like reasonable decent, people to me, sincere in what you believe in (even if you are a bit misguided at times :wink:). But this guy seems to be a 'nasty party' dinosaur of the first degree. Hard to believe your party doesn't have a way of weeding such MPs out.

    Deselect Soubry, Woolaston, or Greive? - Get rid of this guy first, would be my advice!
    Why should he be deselected?

    I don’t agree with him on this, but he represents a strand of socially conservative Thatcherite thinking that is deserving of representation at Westminster.

    A better reponse would be to reform the rules for the review and passage of private members bills.
    Perhaps because, as BigG says "he is an odious member of our party".
    Disagreeing with someone vehemently on a number of issues doesn’t make them odious.
    Vetoing laws designed to stop abuse of women before they even reach the committee stages does though.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    dixiedean said:

    De Gea...bloody liability.

    Well that should keep him at United !!!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Chope got 70% of the vote, the joint highest Tory share. He must be popular there.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Off topic, it seems that moving house is hard work.

    You are only meant to move the contents!
    Wise words indeed.

    The wining hour has been reached, so all is survivable.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    ydoethur said:

    He is of course right that lots of parliamentary bills are badly worded and shouldn't be on the statute book for that reason, and or need more scrutiny.

    His argument would have more force by far if it wasn't mostly government bills that DID have parliamentary scrutiny that suffer from this flaw.

    If his wikipedia entry is to be believed he sounds like an odious shite. To think there are current MPs with this set of views, even in the Conservative Party, is astonishing!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Chope
    I am utterly disgusted with Chope and I concur he is an odious member of our party. Please do not judge us all on his unacceptable behaviour
    I don't Big_G.

    You and pretty much all the PB Tories seem like reasonable decent, people to me, sincere in what you believe in (even if you are a bit misguided at times :wink:). But this guy seems to be a 'nasty party' dinosaur of the first degree. Hard to believe your party doesn't have a way of weeding such MPs out.

    Deselect Soubry, Woolaston, or Greive? - Get rid of this guy first, would be my advice!
    Why should he be deselected?

    I don’t agree with him on this, but he represents a strand of socially conservative Thatcherite thinking that is deserving of representation at Westminster.

    A better reponse would be to reform the rules for the review and passage of private members bills.
    Perhaps because, as BigG says "he is an odious member of our party".
    Disagreeing with someone vehemently on a number of issues doesn’t make them odious.
    Vetoing laws designed to stop abuse of women before they even reach the committee stages does though.
    If the argument is about scrutiny, then couldn't it be done at the committee stage.
    From the radio it just sounded like he yelled object and the bill died there
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,695
    AndyJS said:

    Chope got 70% of the vote, the joint highest Tory share. He must be popular there.

    Would be interesting to see how "popular" he is under a proportional system.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    Pulpstar said:

    ydoethur said:

    He is of course right that lots of parliamentary bills are badly worded and shouldn't be on the statute book for that reason, and or need more scrutiny.

    His argument would have more force by far if it wasn't mostly government bills that DID have parliamentary scrutiny that suffer from this flaw.

    If his wikipedia entry is to be believed he sounds like an odious shite. To think there are current MPs with this set of views, even in the Conservative Party, is astonishing!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Chope
    I am utterly disgusted with Chope and I concur he is an odious member of our party. Please do not judge us all on his unacceptable behaviour
    I don't Big_G.

    You and pretty much all the PB Tories seem like reasonable decent, people to me, sincere in what you believe in (even if you are a bit misguided at times :wink:). But this guy seems to be a 'nasty party' dinosaur of the first degree. Hard to believe your party doesn't have a way of weeding such MPs out.

    Deselect Soubry, Woolaston, or Greive? - Get rid of this guy first, would be my advice!
    Why should he be deselected?

    I don’t agree with him on this, but he represents a strand of socially conservative Thatcherite thinking that is deserving of representation at Westminster.

    A better reponse would be to reform the rules for the review and passage of private members bills.
    Perhaps because, as BigG says "he is an odious member of our party".
    Disagreeing with someone vehemently on a number of issues doesn’t make them odious.
    Vetoing laws designed to stop abuse of women before they even reach the committee stages does though.
    If the argument is about scrutiny, then couldn't it be done at the committee stage.
    From the radio it just sounded like he yelled object and the bill died there
    It is coming back in July but he may do the same again, believe it or not
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Off topic, it seems that moving house is hard work.

    After my last house move I said never again.
    This is property transaction number two in a series of somewhere between five and eight.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    I'm going to check hansard
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Pulpstar said:

    ydoethur said:

    He is of course right that lots of parliamentary bills are badly worded and shouldn't be on the statute book for that reason, and or need more scrutiny.

    His argument would have more force by far if it wasn't mostly government bills that DID have parliamentary scrutiny that suffer from this flaw.

    If his wikipedia entry is to be believed he sounds like an odious shite. To think there are current MPs with this set of views, even in the Conservative Party, is astonishing!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Chope
    I am utterly disgusted with Chope and I concur he is an odious member of our party. Please do not judge us all on his unacceptable behaviour
    I don't Big_G.

    You and pretty much all the PB Tories seem like reasonable decent, people to me, sincere in what you believe in (even if you are a bit misguided at times :wink:). But this guy seems to be a 'nasty party' dinosaur of the first degree. Hard to believe your party doesn't have a way of weeding such MPs out.

    Deselect Soubry, Woolaston, or Greive? - Get rid of this guy first, would be my advice!
    Why should he be deselected?

    I don’t agree with him on this, but he represents a strand of socially conservative Thatcherite thinking that is deserving of representation at Westminster.

    A better reponse would be to reform the rules for the review and passage of private members bills.
    Perhaps because, as BigG says "he is an odious member of our party".
    Disagreeing with someone vehemently on a number of issues doesn’t make them odious.
    Vetoing laws designed to stop abuse of women before they even reach the committee stages does though.
    If the argument is about scrutiny, then couldn't it be done at the committee stage.
    From the radio it just sounded like he yelled object and the bill died there
    Precisely. This vote is to filter out dud bills, the committee stage is for scrutiny. To complain its not been debated before the committee stage is to put the cart before the horse.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014

    ydoethur said:

    He is of course right that lots of parliamentary bills are badly worded and shouldn't be on the statute book for that reason, and or need more scrutiny.

    His argument would have more force by far if it wasn't mostly government bills that DID have parliamentary scrutiny that suffer from this flaw.

    If his wikipedia entry is to be believed he sounds like an odious shite. To think there are current MPs with this set of views, even in the Conservative Party, is astonishing!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Chope
    I am utterly disgusted with Chope and I concur he is an odious member of our party. Please do not judge us all on his unacceptable behaviour
    I don't Big_G.

    You and pretty much all the PB Tories seem like reasonable decent, people to me, sincere in what you believe in (even if you are a bit misguided at times :wink:). But this guy seems to be a 'nasty party' dinosaur of the first degree. Hard to believe your party doesn't have a way of weeding such MPs out.

    Deselect Soubry, Woolaston, or Greive? - Get rid of this guy first, would be my advice!
    Why should he be deselected?

    I don’t agree with him on this, but he represents a strand of socially conservative Thatcherite thinking that is deserving of representation at Westminster.

    A better reponse would be to reform the rules for the review and passage of private members bills.
    Perhaps because, as BigG says "he is an odious member of our party".
    Disagreeing with someone vehemently on a number of issues doesn’t make them odious.
    Vetoing laws designed to stop abuse of women before they even reach the committee stages does though.
    I don’t think his vetoing of this law is different from the many others he has previously vetoed, and I doubt if he has strong views on the merits of the matter either.

    It’s just what he’s always done. He’s clearly invited a lot of opprobrium down on himself by doing it, but I won’t be joining it with it other than to say I disagree with him.

    I don’t like feeding frenzies.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    ydoethur said:

    He is of course right that lots of parliamentary bills are badly worded and shouldn't be on the statute book for that reason, and or need more scrutiny.

    His argument would have more force by far if it wasn't mostly government bills that DID have parliamentary scrutiny that suffer from this flaw.

    If his wikipedia entry is to be believed he sounds like an odious shite. To think there are current MPs with this set of views, even in the Conservative Party, is astonishing!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Chope
    I am utterly disgusted with Chope and I concur he is an odious member of our party. Please do not judge us all on his unacceptable behaviour
    I don't Big_G.

    You and pretty much all the PB Tories seem like reasonable decent, people to me, sincere in what you believe in (even if you are a bit misguided at times :wink:). But this guy seems to be a 'nasty party' dinosaur of the first degree. Hard to believe your party doesn't have a way of weeding such MPs out.

    Deselect Soubry, Woolaston, or Greive? - Get rid of this guy first, would be my advice!
    Why should he be deselected?

    I don’t agree with him on this, but he represents a strand of socially conservative Thatcherite thinking that is deserving of representation at Westminster.

    A better reponse would be to reform the rules for the review and passage of private members bills.
    Perhaps because, as BigG says "he is an odious member of our party".
    Disagreeing with someone vehemently on a number of issues doesn’t make them odious.
    Vetoing laws designed to stop abuse of women before they even reach the committee stages does though.
    I don’t think his vetoing of this law is different from the many others he has previously vetoed, and I doubt if he has strong views on the merits of the matter either.

    It’s just what he’s always done. He’s clearly invited a lot of opprobrium down on himself by doing it, but I won’t be joining it with it other than to say I disagree with him.

    I don’t like feeding frenzies.
    I'm struggling to understand how that makes it OK.

    If he had a strong view on the matter that would make it better. If he doesn't care and is vetoing bills before they can be scrutinised for no reason at all then that's not principled.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    edited June 2018
    Hansard doesn't seem to specify him shouting object, but I note Chope and Davies were busy taking plenty of time "debating" a mental health bill about half one today...
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    Pulpstar said:

    Hansard doesn't seem to specify him shouting object, but I note Chope and Davies were busy taking plenty of time "debating" a mental health bill about half one today...

    I heard him say object
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    ydoethur said:

    He is of course right that lots of parliamentary bills are badly worded and shouldn't be on the statute book for that reason, and or need more scrutiny.

    His argument would have more force by far if it wasn't mostly government bills that DID have parliamentary scrutiny that suffer from this flaw.

    If his wikipedia entry is to be believed he sounds like an odious shite. To think there are current MPs with this set of views, even in the Conservative Party, is astonishing!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Chope
    I am utterly disgusted with Chope and I concur he is an odious member of our party. Please do not judge us all on his unacceptable behaviour
    I don't Big_G.

    You and pretty much all the PB Tories seem like reasonable decent, people to me, sincere in what you believe in (even if you are a bit misguided at times :wink:). But this guy seems to be a 'nasty party' dinosaur of the first degree. Hard to believe your party doesn't have a way of weeding such MPs out.

    Deselect Soubry, Woolaston, or Greive? - Get rid of this guy first, would be my advice!
    Why should he be deselected?

    I don’t agree with him on this, but he represents a strand of socially conservative Thatcherite thinking that is deserving of representation at Westminster.

    A better reponse would be to reform the rules for the review and passage of private members bills.
    Perhaps because, as BigG says "he is an odious member of our party".
    Disagreeing with someone vehemently on a number of issues doesn’t make them odious.
    Vetoing laws designed to stop abuse of women before they even reach the committee stages does though.
    I don’t think his vetoing of this law is different from the many others he has previously vetoed, and I doubt if he has strong views on the merits of the matter either.

    It’s just what he’s always done. He’s clearly invited a lot of opprobrium down on himself by doing it, but I won’t be joining it with it other than to say I disagree with him.

    I don’t like feeding frenzies.
    Bit his reasoning for doing so is totally specious.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921
    This match is already far better than all the others put together...
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    ydoethur said:

    He is of course right that lots of parliamentary bills are badly worded and shouldn't be on the statute book for that reason, and or need more scrutiny.

    His argument would have more force by far if it wasn't mostly government bills that DID have parliamentary scrutiny that suffer from this flaw.

    If his wikipedia entry is to be believed he sounds like an odious shite. To think there are current MPs with this set of views, even in the Conservative Party, is astonishing!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Chope
    I am utterly disgusted with Chope and I concur he is an odious member of our party. Please do not judge us all on his unacceptable behaviour
    I don't Big_G.

    You and pretty much all the PB Tories seem like reasonable decent, people to me, sincere in what you believe in (even if you are a bit misguided at times :wink:). But this guy seems to be a 'nasty party' dinosaur of the first degree. Hard to believe your party doesn't have a way of weeding such MPs out.

    Deselect Soubry, Woolaston, or Greive? - Get rid of this guy first, would be my advice!
    Why should he be deselected?

    I don’t agree with him on this, but he represents a strand of socially conservative Thatcherite thinking that is deserving of representation at Westminster.

    A better reponse would be to reform the rules for the review and passage of private members bills.
    Or for the election of MPs.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014
    “By Mark D'Arcy, BBC parliamentary correspondent

    Sir Christopher is a leading member of a group of backbench Conservatives who make a practice of ensuring that what they see as well-meaning but flabby legislation is not lazily plopped on to the statue book by a few MPs on a poorly attended Friday sitting.

    And after all this is a bill to create a new criminal offence, for which people can go to jail.
    So, however worthy the cause, he insists on proper, extensive scrutiny, and he has spent most Commons Fridays for the last 20 years doing just that.

    Indeed, a few minutes before he blocked the upskirting bill, he forced a delay to Seni's Law, which also had strong support from the government.

    He also opposed plans to give police dogs and horses extra legal protections from attack.”

    You can disagree with that but that doesn’t make him odious.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    Pulpstar said:

    Hansard doesn't seem to specify him shouting object, but I note Chope and Davies were busy taking plenty of time "debating" a mental health bill about half one today...

    Could it be one of those things that isn't mentioned in Hansard?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    PClipp said:

    ydoethur said:

    He is of course right that lots of parliamentary bills are badly worded and shouldn't be on the statute book for that reason, and or need more scrutiny.

    His argument would have more force by far if it wasn't mostly government bills that DID have parliamentary scrutiny that suffer from this flaw.

    If his wikipedia entry is to be believed he sounds like an odious shite. To think there are current MPs with this set of views, even in the Conservative Party, is astonishing!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Chope
    I am utterly disgusted with Chope and I concur he is an odious member of our party. Please do not judge us all on his unacceptable behaviour
    I don't Big_G.

    You and pretty much all the PB Tories seem like reasonable decent, people to me, sincere in what you believe in (even if you are a bit misguided at times :wink:). But this guy seems to be a 'nasty party' dinosaur of the first degree. Hard to believe your party doesn't have a way of weeding such MPs out.

    Deselect Soubry, Woolaston, or Greive? - Get rid of this guy first, would be my advice!
    Why should he be deselected?

    I don’t agree with him on this, but he represents a strand of socially conservative Thatcherite thinking that is deserving of representation at Westminster.

    A better reponse would be to reform the rules for the review and passage of private members bills.
    Or for the election of MPs.
    Given he got 70% of the vote, I'm not sure any other voting system would have prevented his election.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    ydoethur said:

    He is of course right that lots of parliamentary bills are badly worded and shouldn't be on the statute book for that reason, and or need more scrutiny.

    His argument would have more force by far if it wasn't mostly government bills that DID have parliamentary scrutiny that suffer from this flaw.

    If his wikipedia entry is to be believed he sounds like an odious shite. To think there are current MPs with this set of views, even in the Conservative Party, is astonishing!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Chope
    I am utterly disgusted with Chope and I concur he is an odious member of our party. Please do not judge us all on his unacceptable behaviour
    I don't Big_G.

    You and pretty much all the PB Tories seem like reasonable decent, people to me, sincere in what you believe in (even if you are a bit misguided at times :wink:). But this guy seems to be a 'nasty party' dinosaur of the first degree. Hard to believe your party doesn't have a way of weeding such MPs out.

    Deselect Soubry, Woolaston, or Greive? - Get rid of this guy first, would be my advice!
    Why should he be deselected?

    I don’t agree with him on this, but he represents a strand of socially conservative Thatcherite thinking that is deserving of representation at Westminster.

    A better reponse would be to reform the rules for the review and passage of private members bills.
    Or for the election of MPs.
    Given he got 70% of the vote, I'm not sure any other voting system would have prevented his election.
    Well, under STV he would ideally be in competition with other Conservative candidates, and then Conservative voters would be able to choose between his strand of Conservatism and others, as well as his personal qualities.

    The Irish experience suggests that he could well still be elected, but at least the electorate would be in a position to change their mind without having to vote against the Conservatives.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    I find it hard to believe that taking a picture of someone's intimate body parts is not already covered by legislation.

    Not my area of expertise, in any sense. But if legislation is needed, Chope is an idiot for preventing it being debated.

    Perhaps I've lived a sheltered life. But there does seem to be more of this sleazy, pervy behaviour directed at women, no? Or am I being nostalgic?
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    “By Mark D'Arcy, BBC parliamentary correspondent

    Sir Christopher is a leading member of a group of backbench Conservatives who make a practice of ensuring that what they see as well-meaning but flabby legislation is not lazily plopped on to the statue book by a few MPs on a poorly attended Friday sitting.

    And after all this is a bill to create a new criminal offence, for which people can go to jail.
    So, however worthy the cause, he insists on proper, extensive scrutiny, and he has spent most Commons Fridays for the last 20 years doing just that.

    Indeed, a few minutes before he blocked the upskirting bill, he forced a delay to Seni's Law, which also had strong support from the government.

    He also opposed plans to give police dogs and horses extra legal protections from attack.”

    You can disagree with that but that doesn’t make him odious.

    What's odious about it is that there wasn't much honest attempt at scrutiny of any of the bills because his mate wasted two hours filibustering.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    edited June 2018

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    ydoethur said:

    He is of course right that lots of parliamentary bills are badly worded and shouldn't be on the statute book for that reason, and or need more scrutiny.

    His argument would have more force by far if it wasn't mostly government bills that DID have parliamentary scrutiny that suffer from this flaw.

    If his wikipedia entry is to be believed he sounds like an odious shite. To think there are current MPs with this set of views, even in the Conservative Party, is astonishing!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Chope
    I am utterly disgusted with Chope and I concur he is an odious member of our party. Please do not judge us all on his unacceptable behaviour
    I don't Big_G.

    You and pretty much all the PB Tories seem like reasonable decent, people to me, sincere in what you believe in (even if you are a bit misguided at times :wink:). But this guy seems to be a 'nasty party' dinosaur of the first degree. Hard to believe your party doesn't have a way of weeding such MPs out.

    Deselect Soubry, Woolaston, or Greive? - Get rid of this guy first, would be my advice!
    Why should he be deselected?

    I don’t agree with him on this, but he represents a strand of socially conservative Thatcherite thinking that is deserving of representation at Westminster.

    A better reponse would be to reform the rules for the review and passage of private members bills.
    Or for the election of MPs.
    Given he got 70% of the vote, I'm not sure any other voting system would have prevented his election.
    Well, under STV he would ideally be in competition with other Conservative candidates, and then Conservative voters would be able to choose between his strand of Conservatism and others, as well as his personal qualities.

    The Irish experience suggests that he could well still be elected, but at least the electorate would be in a position to change their mind without having to vote against the Conservatives.
    They have that system here in the US, where you end up with two candidates from the same party to "choose" from. I bet that does wonders for turnout.
  • ipfreelyipfreely Posts: 29
    what actually happened:

    Philip Davies had a lot of amendments to the Mental Health restraint Act, and apparently he was not happy with it, so he talked it out essentially, on the basis that the government should do a better job, basically.

    This consumed all available time, and subsequently no less than 20 Bills were put to Parliament to be voted on without debate, which were all summarily objected to.

    I doubt that the MPs had even read the Bills in question, so didn't know that one of them was an 'upskirting' bill.

    There was other worthy legislation, I guess, such as the Wild Animals in Circuses Bill (banning them), or the London Pedicabs (regulating the various rip-off artists plying their trades) Bill, but they just object to them all out of principle.

    Presumably SOMEONE has drafted and considered all this legislation, but whether you consider it is better for bureaucrats to essentially make law without real scrutiny, or for Parliament to do it, is perhaps a philosophical issue.

    Clearly it is woolly-headed nonsense to start screaming and shouting that this dreadful man chucked out this Bill when the reality is that he chucks them ALL out.

    If we want to change the system then we should do that. But let's not start shock horror, MP doesn't allow Bill to be passed without debate witch hunts at random, when this is exactly how things work.
  • ipfreelyipfreely Posts: 29
    sorry Mental Health restraint Bill, not Act.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Cyclefree said:

    I find it hard to believe that taking a picture of someone's intimate body parts is not already covered by legislation.

    Not my area of expertise, in any sense. But if legislation is needed, Chope is an idiot for preventing it being debated.

    Perhaps I've lived a sheltered life. But there does seem to be more of this sleazy, pervy behaviour directed at women, no? Or am I being nostalgic?

    It is more easily detected, now that most people feel you haven't really committed a crime properly unless you have videoed it and uploaded to social media.

    I am just mystified. Surely this is already illegal, and if not why hasn't a government minister piped up this afternoon and said it will be sorted with a proper bill, and why hasn't the opposition asked why a government minister hasn't piped up this afternoon...
  • Cyclefree said:

    I find it hard to believe that taking a picture of someone's intimate body parts is not already covered by legislation.

    Not my area of expertise, in any sense. But if legislation is needed, Chope is an idiot for preventing it being debated.

    Perhaps I've lived a sheltered life. But there does seem to be more of this sleazy, pervy behaviour directed at women, no? Or am I being nostalgic?

    I suspect that, by the power of the internet, people can find out and share in more and more niche *interests*, and the rest of us can find out about these people. People are no better or worse than before, just more connected.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    “By Mark D'Arcy, BBC parliamentary correspondent

    Sir Christopher is a leading member of a group of backbench Conservatives who make a practice of ensuring that what they see as well-meaning but flabby legislation is not lazily plopped on to the statue book by a few MPs on a poorly attended Friday sitting.

    And after all this is a bill to create a new criminal offence, for which people can go to jail.
    So, however worthy the cause, he insists on proper, extensive scrutiny, and he has spent most Commons Fridays for the last 20 years doing just that.

    Indeed, a few minutes before he blocked the upskirting bill, he forced a delay to Seni's Law, which also had strong support from the government.

    He also opposed plans to give police dogs and horses extra legal protections from attack.”

    You can disagree with that but that doesn’t make him odious.

    What's odious about it is that there wasn't much honest attempt at scrutiny of any of the bills because his mate wasted two hours filibustering.
    I knew the odious Phillip Davies would probably be involved somewhere along the line..
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    ipfreely said:


    Clearly it is woolly-headed nonsense to start screaming and shouting that this dreadful man chucked out this Bill when the reality is that he chucks them ALL out.

    In fact that is what some are indeed objecting to - his commitment to this principle appears to be a disproportionate response even it is a sincere view he holds. It's not as though the bills moving on would mean poor legislation would definitely be adopted as a result, they aren't going on to the statute book tomorrow.

    Let's not have a witch hunt. But let's also not pretend all criticism is to be dismissed as irrelevant because of the fear of starting a witch hunt.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263

    malcolmg said:

    AndyJS said:

    Why did Chope object to the private members bill?

    Maybe he thought that current laws are adequate to cover the situation.
    The clown has not got enough brain cells to be able to think cogently.
    He’s not an idiot. He led Wandsworth Council shortly after the Tories took control in 1978, and drove it to have one of the lowest council taxes in the country using Thatcherite principles.

    And he was knighted for political and public service only this year.
    That was another sure-footed move by the Government, would you say?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited June 2018
    Cyclefree said:

    I find it hard to believe that taking a picture of someone's intimate body parts is not already covered by legislation.

    The descriptions I've see are that the bill was intended to make it a specific offence, so I would presume while the authorities can find things to charge people with in such cases, it is believed it will be easier (and fairer) to do so if it is a specific offence.

    I have a great deal of sympathy with not wanting poor legislation to be adopted, but this tactic seems over the top, and as poor a view as we have of MPs as a group, if the hundreds upon hundreds in their now, and thousands in the past, don't utilise such extreme tactics on poor bills, I think there a good chance it is an unnecessary tactic.

    Relatedly, I know she is merely being descriptive of the person who objected, but out of context it could be read that Dawn Butler is suggesting it would have be ok for a woman non tory to have blocked the bill, which obviously is not what she means I know.

    Dawn Butler, Labour's shadow minister for women and equalities, said: "It's absolutely disgusting that a male Tory MP has blocked upskirting from becoming a criminal offence.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002
    Sign him up Jose
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    The Final is already packing its bags and slinking off home "Can't compete with this....."
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Ronaldo has looked worth every penny of his €100 million earnings or whatever he makes this evening
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    ydoethur said:

    He is of course right that lots of parliamentary bills are badly worded and shouldn't be on the statute book for that reason, and or need more scrutiny.

    His argument would have more force by far if it wasn't mostly government bills that DID have parliamentary scrutiny that suffer from this flaw.

    If his wikipedia entry is to be believed he sounds like an odious shite. To think there are current MPs with this set of views, even in the Conservative Party, is astonishing!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Chope
    Hardly astonishing. Millions of voters share his views, and the Conservative Party wants their support.
  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Pulpstar said:

    Ronaldo has looked worth every penny of his €100 million earnings or whatever he makes this evening

    He's amazing.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Why did Chope object to the private members bill?

    It appears he objects to pretty much every PM Bill being passed on the nod, without scrutiny, as opposed to any objection regarding this specific measure.
    He co-ordinated with Phillip David's to ensure there was no time for a debate on this bill.

    Then objected because there was no debate. Hypocrite doesn't even begin to describe him.
    Casino is correct to say that there's no reason to think that Chope objects to this particular Bill, just that he believes that backbenchers have no business putting forward Bills.

    I think it's reasonable to say that even with that general view (neutering backbenchers even more than they are already), he should pick and choose a bit - perhaps only object to Bills where there is a degree of opposition from ANY quarter? And certainly he shouldn't make fun of the whole thing, as he and Davies did on this occasion with their double act.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    Sign him up Jose

    Get Bale.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Why did Chope object to the private members bill?

    It appears he objects to pretty much every PM Bill being passed on the nod, without scrutiny, as opposed to any objection regarding this specific measure.
    He co-ordinated with Phillip David's to ensure there was no time for a debate on this bill.

    Then objected because there was no debate. Hypocrite doesn't even begin to describe him.
    Casino is correct to say that there's no reason to think that Chope objects to this particular Bill, just that he believes that backbenchers have no business putting forward Bills.

    I think it's reasonable to say that even with that general view (neutering backbenchers even more than they are already), he should pick and choose a bit - perhaps only object to Bills where there is a degree of opposition from ANY quarter? And certainly he shouldn't make fun of the whole thing, as he and Davies did on this occasion with their double act.
    I think that seems a reasonable view. Even objecting to the principles of how these bills are put forward he should accept it is a valid legislative procedure and at least exercise a bit more scrutiny himself of their potential worthiness, if the reports of how scattershot he is about it are accurate.

    It's one of those situations where the purported reasoning for the action - wanting better legislation - seems solid, but is his approach really the best way to manage it? With all the people is is building up grievances with?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002

    Sign him up Jose

    Get Bale.
    As well
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    A classic tbh
  • RobCRobC Posts: 398

    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Why did Chope object to the private members bill?

    It appears he objects to pretty much every PM Bill being passed on the nod, without scrutiny, as opposed to any objection regarding this specific measure.
    He co-ordinated with Phillip David's to ensure there was no time for a debate on this bill.

    Then objected because there was no debate. Hypocrite doesn't even begin to describe him.
    Casino is correct to say that there's no reason to think that Chope objects to this particular Bill, just that he believes that backbenchers have no business putting forward Bills.

    I think it's reasonable to say that even with that general view (neutering backbenchers even more than they are already), he should pick and choose a bit - perhaps only object to Bills where there is a degree of opposition from ANY quarter? And certainly he shouldn't make fun of the whole thing, as he and Davies did on this occasion with their double act.
    They've double acted several times before sometimes with JRM in tow before he turned into the Brexiteer's darling. For example they killed off a daylight saving bill back in 2012 presented by Rebecca Harris. Neanderthals all.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    Sign him up Jose

    Get Bale.
    As well
    You are a greedy chap!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    RobC said:

    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Why did Chope object to the private members bill?

    It appears he objects to pretty much every PM Bill being passed on the nod, without scrutiny, as opposed to any objection regarding this specific measure.
    He co-ordinated with Phillip David's to ensure there was no time for a debate on this bill.

    Then objected because there was no debate. Hypocrite doesn't even begin to describe him.
    Casino is correct to say that there's no reason to think that Chope objects to this particular Bill, just that he believes that backbenchers have no business putting forward Bills.

    I think it's reasonable to say that even with that general view (neutering backbenchers even more than they are already), he should pick and choose a bit - perhaps only object to Bills where there is a degree of opposition from ANY quarter? And certainly he shouldn't make fun of the whole thing, as he and Davies did on this occasion with their double act.
    They've double acted several times before sometimes with JRM in tow before he turned into the Brexiteer's darling. For example they killed off a daylight saving bill back in 2012 presented by Rebecca Harris. Neanderthals all.
    I don't see how insulting people rather than trying to understand their motives advances us very far.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    RobC said:

    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Why did Chope object to the private members bill?

    It appears he objects to pretty much every PM Bill being passed on the nod, without scrutiny, as opposed to any objection regarding this specific measure.
    He co-ordinated with Phillip David's to ensure there was no time for a debate on this bill.

    Then objected because there was no debate. Hypocrite doesn't even begin to describe him.
    Casino is correct to say that there's no reason to think that Chope objects to this particular Bill, just that he believes that backbenchers have no business putting forward Bills.

    I think it's reasonable to say that even with that general view (neutering backbenchers even more than they are already), he should pick and choose a bit - perhaps only object to Bills where there is a degree of opposition from ANY quarter? And certainly he shouldn't make fun of the whole thing, as he and Davies did on this occasion with their double act.
    They've double acted several times before sometimes with JRM in tow before he turned into the Brexiteer's darling. For example they killed off a daylight saving bill back in 2012 presented by Rebecca Harris. Neanderthals all.
    Neanderthal seems an odd insult to use in this context, particularly given the example of a daylight saving bill. They seem to be disproportionately tanking bills on technical grounds, whatever the worthiness of those bills, which would seem to be silly, but neanderthal?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,002

    Sign him up Jose

    Get Bale.
    As well
    You are a greedy chap!
    Need lots of talent to take on City
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2018
    Well after an afternoon games akin to Radiohead live at Glastonbury, that was much more like it! Remind me why do we need 48 teams in the world cup again?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Pulpstar said:

    Ronaldo has looked worth every penny of his €100 million earnings or whatever he makes this evening

    minus the £15 million for the tax dodging fine.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Great game, first one I actually watched. Doesn't seem to have been a bad point to start watching the tournament.

  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,275
    Wow - what a game! There was me thinking this had 0-0 written all over it!
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,741
    Evening all :)

    Just watched Portugal vs Spain - a tremendous game and worthy of a World Cup Final or at the very least semi-final and if one of those two teams isn't there at the very end I'll be surprised.

    More entertaining than a District Council by-election, more exciting than a Vince Cable speech and that's saying something !!
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    So with two goals direct from free kicks so far I wonder if a team will put a defender on the goal line at free kicks.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    stodge said:

    Evening all :)


    More entertaining than a District Council by-election, more exciting than a Vince Cable speech and that's saying something !!

    You know that earns you three PB demerit points, very poor form.
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I find it hard to believe that taking a picture of someone's intimate body parts is not already covered by legislation.

    Not my area of expertise, in any sense. But if legislation is needed, Chope is an idiot for preventing it being debated.

    Perhaps I've lived a sheltered life. But there does seem to be more of this sleazy, pervy behaviour directed at women, no? Or am I being nostalgic?

    It is more easily detected, now that most people feel you haven't really committed a crime properly unless you have videoed it and uploaded to social media.

    I am just mystified. Surely this is already illegal, and if not why hasn't a government minister piped up this afternoon and said it will be sorted with a proper bill, and why hasn't the opposition asked why a government minister hasn't piped up this afternoon...
    Because they probably looked in to it and concluded it is too difficult to legislate for something like this. I've not read it, but the proposed legislation is probably deeply flawed and will unintentionally criminalise all sorts of innocent activity. Its probably easier for the government to just let it happen this way, rather than have to defend something that that falls apart under scrutiny.
  • DeanoDeano Posts: 9
    RobC said:

    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Why did Chope object to the private members bill?

    It appears he objects to pretty much every PM Bill being passed on the nod, without scrutiny, as opposed to any objection regarding this specific measure.
    He co-ordinated with Phillip David's to ensure there was no time for a debate on this bill.

    Then objected because there was no debate. Hypocrite doesn't even begin to describe him.
    Casino is correct to say that there's no reason to think that Chope objects to this particular Bill, just that he believes that backbenchers have no business putting forward Bills.

    I think it's reasonable to say that even with that general view (neutering backbenchers even more than they are already), he should pick and choose a bit - perhaps only object to Bills where there is a degree of opposition from ANY quarter? And certainly he shouldn't make fun of the whole thing, as he and Davies did on this occasion with their double act.
    They've double acted several times before sometimes with JRM in tow before he turned into the Brexiteer's darling. For example they killed off a daylight saving bill back in 2012 presented by Rebecca Harris. Neanderthals all.
    you don't need a new bill, new law. shows how poor politicians are to need to do this. Honestly Tories are like New Labour! Losers
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Pulpstar said:

    Ronaldo has looked worth every penny of his €100 million earnings or whatever he makes this evening

    minus the £15 million for the tax dodging fine.
    I guess he wanted to send the Spanish tax authorities a message xD
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    The Final is already packing its bags and slinking off home "Can't compete with this....."

    Most finals are shite in any case.
  • DeanoDeano Posts: 9

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:
    Shocked by Chope's stupidity - just crass
    That's your Tories for you , cretins and sleazebags
    They are in all parties Malc, sadly
    G , I should have qualified , but Tories seem to have more than their fair share of real bad uns. They have far too many who have no compassion for anything other than themselves and lining their own pockets. I am naturally right wing but could never ever support Tories.
    Chope has shamed our party today and needs to be called out. As you know I do not like excessive abuse between posters nor do I like fellow conservatives bringing shame on us especially over something that is a no brainer
    he's done the right thing Doesn't need a new law. Christ, upskirting. WTF!
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,962
    This is the Santorum surge all over again.

    https://twitter.com/caitlinmoran/status/1007702235738931201
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    edited June 2018
    Perhaps we should revisit one of that thread a few months ago when people were saying we should boycott the WC and I pointed out that when it took place there would be plenty of match commentary in the PB threads.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    I note Chope may have scuppered the bill to toughen up people stabbing police animals, so he's on the side of animal abuse as well.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Is upskirting the new 'happy slapping' ?

    And surely it would be already illegal ?

    How prevalent is it anyway ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Why was he knighted by May btw ?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    OT the biased BBC has changed its headline and the story to lead on Theresa May and Conservative MPs in general criticising Chope, who is no longer identified as a Tory.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44496427
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Deano said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:
    Shocked by Chope's stupidity - just crass
    That's your Tories for you , cretins and sleazebags
    They are in all parties Malc, sadly
    G , I should have qualified , but Tories seem to have more than their fair share of real bad uns. They have far too many who have no compassion for anything other than themselves and lining their own pockets. I am naturally right wing but could never ever support Tories.
    Chope has shamed our party today and needs to be called out. As you know I do not like excessive abuse between posters nor do I like fellow conservatives bringing shame on us especially over something that is a no brainer
    he's done the right thing Doesn't need a new law. Christ, upskirting. WTF!
    So which existing law adequately prohibits it?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Deano said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:
    Shocked by Chope's stupidity - just crass
    That's your Tories for you , cretins and sleazebags
    They are in all parties Malc, sadly
    G , I should have qualified , but Tories seem to have more than their fair share of real bad uns. They have far too many who have no compassion for anything other than themselves and lining their own pockets. I am naturally right wing but could never ever support Tories.
    Chope has shamed our party today and needs to be called out. As you know I do not like excessive abuse between posters nor do I like fellow conservatives bringing shame on us especially over something that is a no brainer
    he's done the right thing Doesn't need a new law. Christ, upskirting. WTF!
    Several things:

    1) If he rejects all such bills on principles then even if he had done the right thing here it would be by accident, and he should still pay more attention because he will have undoubtedly blocked worthy bills based on his overly harsh principle

    2) What exactly provokes your 'WTF' about upskirting? There may be an argument that the laws we already have are sufficient to address the issues here, IDK, I am not an expert on the law but many people including the government appear to believe the present law is inadequate in this area. There is nothing inherently shocking about the idea legislation may not be presently sufficient for the offence, even if you are right that it is not needed (which, again, was not his reason for blocking it anyway so he can gain no credit for doing so on that basis - indeed, the very unthinking nature of what he apparently does is the problem, in that weeding out bad bills requires it not be an automatic thing he does)
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Ronaldo has looked worth every penny of his €100 million earnings or whatever he makes this evening

    minus the £15 million for the tax dodging fine.
    I guess he wanted to send the Spanish tax authorities a message xD
    His sentence might no longer be suspended.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Deano said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:
    Shocked by Chope's stupidity - just crass
    That's your Tories for you , cretins and sleazebags
    They are in all parties Malc, sadly
    G , I should have qualified , but Tories seem to have more than their fair share of real bad uns. They have far too many who have no compassion for anything other than themselves and lining their own pockets. I am naturally right wing but could never ever support Tories.
    Chope has shamed our party today and needs to be called out. As you know I do not like excessive abuse between posters nor do I like fellow conservatives bringing shame on us especially over something that is a no brainer
    he's done the right thing Doesn't need a new law. Christ, upskirting. WTF!
    So which existing law adequately prohibits it?
    Voyeurism didn't cover it entirely, that was the whole point of the bill
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,962
    Chris Chope is lucky I'm not editing PB now.

    I'd have gone full Mark Reckless on him.

    https://twitter.com/RobDotHutton/status/1007717425280966656
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Pulpstar said:

    Why was he knighted by May btw ?

    He's been an MP for most of the period since 1983 - a lot of MPs seem to get knighted if they stick around long enough.(None yet for J Corbyn though).
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,962
    edited June 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    I note Chope may have scuppered the bill to toughen up people stabbing police animals, so he's on the side of animal abuse as well.

    I bet he also likes pineapple on pizza.

    As an aside Gove is showing very good media skills which is why he's the favourite to replace May, I'm sure the timing of the tweet is mere happenstance.

    https://twitter.com/DefraGovUK/status/1007685289660346369
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited June 2018

    Is upskirting the new 'happy slapping' ?

    And surely it would be already illegal ?

    How prevalent is it anyway ?

    No

    Yes, but not as a specific offence and the argument is that the only avenues of prosecution under existing offences make it unreasonably hard to convict people (the key word being unreasonably). And that wasn't his objection in any case it seems, since this is about principle.

    What does that matter?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    OT the biased BBC has changed its headline and the story to lead on Theresa May and Conservative MPs in general criticising Chope, who is no longer identified as a Tory.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44496427

    At least when I load the link it does,

    "Sir Christopher is a leading member of a group of backbench Conservatives"

    I don't really understand why we don't follow the US convention of when mentioning a politician where they simply put (D) or (R) after their name. Takes no real space, but makes it clear which party they are from.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    edited June 2018

    OT the biased BBC has changed its headline and the story to lead on Theresa May and Conservative MPs in general criticising Chope, who is no longer identified as a Tory.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44496427

    Theresa May says she is "disappointed" an attempt to make upskirting a criminal offence in England and Wales did not progress through Parliament after one of her own MPs blocked it.

    Seems like pretty clear identification so long as people can figure out May is a Conservative.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    Pulpstar said:

    I note Chope may have scuppered the bill to toughen up people stabbing police animals, so he's on the side of animal abuse as well.

    I bet he also likes pineapple on pizza.

    As an aside Gove is showing very good media skills which is why he's the favourite to replace May, I'm sure the timing of the tweet is mere happenstance.

    https://twitter.com/DefraGovUK/status/1007685289660346369
    Also supporting Tory Mp's in marginal seats.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    nielh said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    I find it hard to believe that taking a picture of someone's intimate body parts is not already covered by legislation.

    Not my area of expertise, in any sense. But if legislation is needed, Chope is an idiot for preventing it being debated.

    Perhaps I've lived a sheltered life. But there does seem to be more of this sleazy, pervy behaviour directed at women, no? Or am I being nostalgic?

    It is more easily detected, now that most people feel you haven't really committed a crime properly unless you have videoed it and uploaded to social media.

    I am just mystified. Surely this is already illegal, and if not why hasn't a government minister piped up this afternoon and said it will be sorted with a proper bill, and why hasn't the opposition asked why a government minister hasn't piped up this afternoon...
    Because they probably looked in to it and concluded it is too difficult to legislate for something like this. I've not read it, but the proposed legislation is probably deeply flawed and will unintentionally criminalise all sorts of innocent activity. Its probably easier for the government to just let it happen this way, rather than have to defend something that that falls apart under scrutiny.
    So an activity carried out exclusively by men which deeply humiliates and invades the privacy and personal space of (exclusively) women must be allowed to continue because it is "probably" (twice) quite difficult to prohibit, because there are "all sorts of things" which are closely cognate enough to sticking a camera up a woman's skirt to be caught by any potential legislation but are nonetheless "innocent activity."

    I don't often succumb to bouts of neo-liberal feminist outrage, but: are you sure about all that?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,065
    kle4 said:

    Deano said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:
    Shocked by Chope's stupidity - just crass
    That's your Tories for you , cretins and sleazebags
    They are in all parties Malc, sadly
    G , I should have qualified , but Tories seem to have more than their fair share of real bad uns. They have far too many who have no compassion for anything other than themselves and lining their own pockets. I am naturally right wing but could never ever support Tories.
    Chope has shamed our party today and needs to be called out. As you know I do not like excessive abuse between posters nor do I like fellow conservatives bringing shame on us especially over something that is a no brainer
    he's done the right thing Doesn't need a new law. Christ, upskirting. WTF!
    Several things:

    1) If he rejects all such bills on principles then even if he had done the right thing here it would be by accident, and he should still pay more attention because he will have undoubtedly blocked worthy bills based on his overly harsh principle

    2) What exactly provokes your 'WTF' about upskirting? There may be an argument that the laws we already have are sufficient to address the issues here, IDK, I am not an expert on the law but many people including the government appear to believe the present law is inadequate in this area. There is nothing inherently shocking about the idea legislation may not be presently sufficient for the offence, even if you are right that it is not needed (which, again, was not his reason for blocking it anyway so he can gain no credit for doing so on that basis - indeed, the very unthinking nature of what he apparently does is the problem, in that weeding out bad bills requires it not be an automatic thing he does)
    We don't want to get to the situation that South Korea has. Ban it now.

    https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedNews/status/1007702211877588992?s=19

    Between Brexit and other business, Parliament should sit through the summer.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,962

    Is upskirting the new 'happy slapping' ?

    And surely it would be already illegal ?

    How prevalent is it anyway ?

    Very prevalent now that most phones come with a very decent camera/video.

    It's one of those things when the law was written such things didn't exist.

    Still proud that when Abu Hamza was convicted that it was mostly under the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Why did Chope object to the private members bill?

    It appears he objects to pretty much every PM Bill being passed on the nod, without scrutiny, as opposed to any objection regarding this specific measure.
    He co-ordinated with Phillip David's to ensure there was no time for a debate on this bill.

    Then objected because there was no debate. Hypocrite doesn't even begin to describe him.
    Casino is correct to say that there's no reason to think that Chope objects to this particular Bill, just that he believes that backbenchers have no business putting forward Bills.

    I think it's reasonable to say that even with that general view (neutering backbenchers even more than they are already), he should pick and choose a bit - perhaps only object to Bills where there is a degree of opposition from ANY quarter? And certainly he shouldn't make fun of the whole thing, as he and Davies did on this occasion with their double act.
    If he thinks backbenchers shouldn't put forward bills he should try and change the system rather than stinking the place up to get his rocks off.

    Him and his mates boast of taking delight in talking out bills and they aren't doing through any sincere conviction. They are doing it for personal pleasure.

    They are mendacious, disingenuous, slimy toads.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Pulpstar said:

    Why was he knighted by May btw ?

    Normally the Queen does the honours .... :smile:
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    kle4 said:

    Is upskirting the new 'happy slapping' ?

    And surely it would be already illegal ?

    How prevalent is it anyway ?

    No

    Yes, but not as a specific offence and the argument is that the only avenues of prosecution under existing offences make it unreasonably hard to convict people (the key word being unreasonably). And that wasn't his objection in any case it seems, since this is about principle.

    What does that matter?
    I'm just asking how prevalent it is - is it one a year or a thousand a day or somewhere in between - I'd never heard of it before today.

    And it reminds me of the 'happy slapping' panic of a decade ago when apparently you couldn't walk near a group of teenagers without being in fear of becoming a victim.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,962
    edited June 2018
    Exclusive Deltapoll polling: Tories are “bad in a crisis”—and don’t stand for ordinary British workers

    The results also show that the public view the party as divided, and not supportive of either small businessmen, farmers or working women

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/other/exclusive-polling-tories-are-bad-in-a-crisis-and-dont-stand-for-ordinary-british-workers
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Foxy said:

    kle4 said:

    Deano said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:
    Shocked by Chope's stupidity - just crass
    That's your Tories for you , cretins and sleazebags
    They are in all parties Malc, sadly
    G , I should have qualified , but Tories seem to have more than their fair share of real bad uns. They have far too many who have no compassion for anything other than themselves and lining their own pockets. I am naturally right wing but could never ever support Tories.
    Chope has shamed our party today and needs to be called out. As you know I do not like excessive abuse between posters nor do I like fellow conservatives bringing shame on us especially over something that is a no brainer
    he's done the right thing Doesn't need a new law. Christ, upskirting. WTF!
    Several things:

    1) If he rejects all such bills on principles then even if he had done the right thing here it would be by accident, and he should still pay more attention because he will have undoubtedly blocked worthy bills based on his overly harsh principle

    2) What exactly provokes your 'WTF' about upskirting? There may be an argument that the laws we already have are sufficient to address the issues here, IDK, I am not an expert on the law but many people including the government appear to believe the present law is inadequate in this area. There is nothing inherently shocking about the idea legislation may not be presently sufficient for the offence, even if you are right that it is not needed (which, again, was not his reason for blocking it anyway so he can gain no credit for doing so on that basis - indeed, the very unthinking nature of what he apparently does is the problem, in that weeding out bad bills requires it not be an automatic thing he does)
    Between Brexit and other business, Parliament should sit through the summer.

    Unquestionably. If ever there was a time of peace in which we we need more going on at Westminster, it's now.

    On upskirting the BBC description of the routes by which prosecution can be brought at the moment, and their limitations, do seem at first glance to justify the making of a specific offence.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    Pulpstar said:

    I note Chope may have scuppered the bill to toughen up people stabbing police animals, so he's on the side of animal abuse as well.

    I bet he also likes pineapple on pizza.

    As an aside Gove is showing very good media skills which is why he's the favourite to replace May, I'm sure the timing of the tweet is mere happenstance.

    twitter.com/DefraGovUK/status/1007685289660346369
    How will Gove overcome his unique ability to be able to start an argument in an empty lift ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    JackW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Why was he knighted by May btw ?

    Normally the Queen does the honours .... :smile:
    JackW said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Why was he knighted by May btw ?

    Normally the Queen does the honours .... :smile:
    I think people have to settle for Prince Charles these days, alas (with all due respect to the man and his position).
  • maaarshmaaarsh Posts: 3,391
    Do any of these bills actually ever make it through the full process without government support anyway? Surely 99.9% get timed out anyway? Killing them at source is very visible, but is the whole process anything more than an opportunity for back bench MPs to strike a pose?
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    It would seem that there are convictions for upskirting

    https://tinyurl.com/yadvztom

    “ Allington-Smith further admitted outraging public decency, between September 2009 and September 2014, for a series of acts of a “lewd, obscene or disgusting nature” by taking images up women’s skirts without their knowledge. "

    Actually, this individual engaged in a whole range of questionable behaviour, such as filming women in short skirts and in shorts without their consent.

    I can see that any legislation that goes beyond “outraging public decency” does need careful drafting.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392

    Exclusive ICM polling: Tories are “bad in a crisis”—and don’t stand for ordinary British workers

    The results also show that the public view the party as divided, and not supportive of either small businessmen, farmers or working women

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/other/exclusive-polling-tories-are-bad-in-a-crisis-and-dont-stand-for-ordinary-british-workers

    Who do they stand for enough that they are ahead of level pegging with Labour, 'party of the people' tm?
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967

    Is upskirting the new 'happy slapping' ?

    And surely it would be already illegal ?

    How prevalent is it anyway ?

    Very prevalent now that most phones come with a very decent camera/video.

    It's one of those things when the law was written such things didn't exist.

    Still proud that when Abu Hamza was convicted that it was mostly under the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act.
    Dear me, there must be some creepy weirdos about.

    Are they the sort of people who used to steal underwear from washing lines ?
  • DeanoDeano Posts: 9
    Pulpstar said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Deano said:

    malcolmg said:

    malcolmg said:

    Scott_P said:
    Shocked by Chope's stupidity - just crass
    That's your Tories for you , cretins and sleazebags
    They are in all parties Malc, sadly
    G , I should have qualified , but Tories seem to have more than their fair share of real bad uns. They have far too many who have no compassion for anything other than themselves and lining their own pockets. I am naturally right wing but could never ever support Tories.
    Chope has shamed our party today and needs to be called out. As you know I do not like excessive abuse between posters nor do I like fellow conservatives bringing shame on us especially over something that is a no brainer
    he's done the right thing Doesn't need a new law. Christ, upskirting. WTF!
    So which existing law adequately prohibits it?
    Voyeurism didn't cover it entirely, that was the whole point of the bill
    lots of laws. Are Police so dim they can't work it out. Have there been more murders than upskirting? first world problem.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    In the past, I have said that there are some Labour MPs - for example Jeremy Corbyn - who have not grown up emotionally or intellectually since their years emulating (or foreshadowing) Rick at university.

    There are also some Conservative MPs who have not grown up emotionally or intellectually since they were in the common room at school, sniggering as they work out their next wizard wheeze.

    Chope is stupid. He may be well-spoken; he may believe he is intelligent, but what he did today shows massive political naivety. And yet he has been an MP for decades ...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,392
    Alistair said:

    Alistair said:

    Sandpit said:

    Why did Chope object to the private members bill?

    It appears he objects to pretty much every PM Bill being passed on the nod, without scrutiny, as opposed to any objection regarding this specific measure.
    He co-ordinated with Phillip David's to ensure there was no time for a debate on this bill.

    Then objected because there was no debate. Hypocrite doesn't even begin to describe him.
    Casino is correct to say that there's no reason to think that Chope objects to this particular Bill, just that he believes that backbenchers have no business putting forward Bills.

    I think it's reasonable to say that even with that general view (neutering backbenchers even more than they are already), he should pick and choose a bit - perhaps only object to Bills where there is a degree of opposition from ANY quarter? And certainly he shouldn't make fun of the whole thing, as he and Davies did on this occasion with their double act.
    If he thinks backbenchers shouldn't put forward bills he should try and change the system rather than stinking the place up to get his rocks off.

    Him and his mates boast of taking delight in talking out bills and they aren't doing through any sincere conviction. They are doing it for personal pleasure.

    They are mendacious, disingenuous, slimy toads.
    The Tory WhatsApp conversation seems revealing, with the one comment that Chope thinks the others don't really care about him doing it and they should tell him they do - which would suggest even if he is sincere in that principle (and even if he is his actions seem over the top and demonstrating none of the legislative analysis he wants to occur) the others don't think he is, and think he perceives it as a game.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 24,967
    kle4 said:

    Exclusive ICM polling: Tories are “bad in a crisis”—and don’t stand for ordinary British workers

    The results also show that the public view the party as divided, and not supportive of either small businessmen, farmers or working women

    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/other/exclusive-polling-tories-are-bad-in-a-crisis-and-dont-stand-for-ordinary-british-workers

    Who do they stand for enough that they are ahead of level pegging with Labour, 'party of the people' tm?
    Working men.

    Disraeli's goal is finally achieved.
This discussion has been closed.