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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Local By-Election Review : June 14th 2018

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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,936
    Scott_P said:
    Really? She was a high profile Leave supporter all the way through and stood for and won her seat again at the subsequent election. She did so with 57% of the vote - an absolute majority.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,370
    edited June 2018
    Cyclefree said:

    Is upskirting the new 'happy slapping' ?

    And surely it would be already illegal ?

    How prevalent is it anyway ?

    Very prevalent now that most phones come with a very decent camera/video.

    It's one of those things when the law was written such things didn't exist.

    Still proud that when Abu Hamza was convicted that it was mostly under the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act.
    I wear skirts and dresses a lot. I am finding it hard to imagine how someone could get a phone under my dress without me noticing. I will probably regret asking this. How does this happen?
    It happened to one of my friends.

    Sat on the train, man next to her dropped some coins, went to pick them up, he used the torch function on his phone to try and find the coins, in fact he was recording her.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,190
    edited June 2018

    Cyclefree said:

    Is upskirting the new 'happy slapping' ?

    And surely it would be already illegal ?

    How prevalent is it anyway ?

    Very prevalent now that most phones come with a very decent camera/video.

    It's one of those things when the law was written such things didn't exist.

    Still proud that when Abu Hamza was convicted that it was mostly under the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act.
    I wear skirts and dresses a lot. I am finding it hard to imagine how someone could get a phone under my dress without me noticing. I will probably regret asking this. How does this happen?
    It happened to one of my friends.

    Sat on the train, man next to her dropped some coins, went to pick them up, he used the torch function on his phone to try and find the coins, in fact he was recording her.
    Jesus! I hope she kicked him hard in the groin.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,370
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Is upskirting the new 'happy slapping' ?

    And surely it would be already illegal ?

    How prevalent is it anyway ?

    Very prevalent now that most phones come with a very decent camera/video.

    It's one of those things when the law was written such things didn't exist.

    Still proud that when Abu Hamza was convicted that it was mostly under the 1861 Offences Against the Person Act.
    I wear skirts and dresses a lot. I am finding it hard to imagine how someone could get a phone under my dress without me noticing. I will probably regret asking this. How does this happen?
    It happened to one of my friends.

    Sat on the train, man next to her dropped some coins, went to pick them up, he used the torch function on his phone to try and find the coins, in fact he was recording her.
    Jesus! I hope she kicked him hard in the groin.
    She was too shocked in the moment to do anything.

    Happens way too much, this is from last year.

    Incidents like sexual touching and ‘upskirting’ make up 60% of the British Transport Police’s (BTP) reported offences via the 61016 texting service.

    ‘Upskirting’ is the act of filming a victim with an angle towards under their dress or skirt without their knowledge.

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/number-text-youre-public-transport-scared-call-police-154442801.html
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,149
    brendan16 said:

    They just don't want forced freedom of movement into their countries for non EU citizens who came into Europe illegally and who Merkel and others allowed to settle in their countries originally but have now decided they don't want the burden of looking after them. They of course now expect other EU member states to do so which many don't wish to.

    This is a weird inversion of Merkel's policy which was precisely that Germany will take refugees who show up on their border *coming from other EU states*, even though legally they'd be within their rights to send them back to the previous EU country they passed through.

    More broadly this shows you the problem with the idea that a wave of populism across Europe will result in policy change: The populists want directly opposite things; For example, the Italian populists are promising to send refugees on to the rest of the EU, and the German populists are promising to send them back to Italy.
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    brendan16brendan16 Posts: 2,315
    RobD said:

    Scott_P said:
    There are zero Labour leave voters in Vauxhall?
    Perhaps if Zoe Williams doesn't approve of Labour MPs who often vote against the party whip she should move - Islington north is only about 15 minutes away on the Victoria line!
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2018
    Sky News report:

    "Sir Christopher Chope and Philip Davies, who between them have used disruptive tactics on two new private members' bills, loathe many backbench bids to reform the law and see it their moral crusade to challenge them.

    Two of the most prominent figures on the libertarian Right of the Conservative Party, the pair regard many private members' bills as politically correct, nanny state nonsense seeking to meddle in people's lives and curb their personal freedom."


    https://news.sky.com/story/why-mp-sir-christopher-chope-objected-to-making-upskirting-a-criminal-offence-11406015
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,326



    Well said Neilh. Reading the Bill and then commenting on it puts you in a much better light than the many virtue signallers who criticised Chope without bothering to find out what he'd objected to, why he'd objected or whether what he'd objected to was any good. Respect.

    As I said earlier, the position of Chope and a couple of others who routinely block ALL PMBs is that they disapprove of backbench Bill becoming law (they believe there are too many laws and that necessary laws should be introduced in Government time, imposing a natural limit). It is in reality nothing to do with the amount of time given to debate a Bill, or of dislike of the Bill itself.

    The problem with this has nothing to do with the virtues or otherwise of the Bill. It's that it subverts part of the way Parliament is supposed to work. It's an intended feature of Parliamentary democracy that individual MPs should be able to put forward proposals and if they have sufficient support or are even entirely unopposed they will eventually become law. This avoids the notion that all good ideas come from the Government of the day, which the most cursory review of presentr and past governments suggests is incorrect.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983

    kle4 said:

    In the past, I have said that there are some Labour MPs - for example Jeremy Corbyn - who have not grown up emotionally or intellectually since their years emulating (or foreshadowing) Rick at university.

    There are also some Conservative MPs who have not grown up emotionally or intellectually since they were in the common room at school, sniggering as they work out their next wizard wheeze.

    Chope is stupid. He may be well-spoken; he may believe he is intelligent, but what he did today shows massive political naivety. And yet he has been an MP for decades ...

    Agreed. Doesn't look like he has ever had to strive much to make his way in life. Great advert for abolishing private schools imo.
    One chap being an arse is a great advert for abolishing private schools? Will you do a 180 when you see a private school alumnus who spends his days rescuing injured puppies?

    Would he have had to strive that much more if private schools did not exist?

    Note: I did not attend a private school. I should hope better arguments exist for their abolition than Sir Christopher Chope (who may, in other respects, be a decent parliamentarian for all I know)
    My point is: private education gives a small wealthy minority of the country the chance to ensure their offspring have much better opportunities (on average) than the population at large... One consequence is that nonentities end up in jobs that their natural talents don't really deserve.

    (PS I don't doubt that many extremely talented people go through private education and deservedly end up in high-powered, well-paid jobs - but I also know that some numpties go through it too and end up in jobs way beyond their true capabilities... to the detriment of the country.)

    Most private schools also offer bursaries and scholarships to talented pupils who would otherwise be unable to afford the fees
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    There will be an exit deal, the basis of which was already agreed last December, a FTA will take a few more years and there was never any chance of it being ready by October
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2018

    kle4 said:

    In the past, I have said that there are some Labour MPs - for example Jeremy Corbyn - who have not grown up emotionally or intellectually since their years emulating (or foreshadowing) Rick at university.

    There are also some Conservative MPs who have not grown up emotionally or intellectually since they were in the common room at school, sniggering as they work out their next wizard wheeze.

    Chope is stupid. He may be well-spoken; he may believe he is intelligent, but what he did today shows massive political naivety. And yet he has been an MP for decades ...

    Agreed. Doesn't look like he has ever had to strive much to make his way in life. Great advert for abolishing private schools imo.
    One chap being an arse is a great advert for abolishing private schools? Will you do a 180 when you see a private school alumnus who spends his days rescuing injured puppies?

    Would he have had to strive that much more if private schools did not exist?

    Note: I did not attend a private school. I should hope better arguments exist for their abolition than Sir Christopher Chope (who may, in other respects, be a decent parliamentarian for all I know)
    My point is: private education gives a small wealthy minority of the country the chance to ensure their offspring have much better opportunities (on average) than the population at large... One consequence is that nonentities end up in jobs that their natural talents don't really deserve.

    (PS I don't doubt that many extremely talented people go through private education and deservedly end up in high-powered, well-paid jobs - but I also know that some numpties go through it too and end up in jobs way beyond their true capabilities... to the detriment of the country.)

    The obvious solution is more grammar schools, so that more bright children from poor backgrounds can go to the top universities.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    AndyJS said:

    Sky News report:

    "Sir Christopher Chope and Philip Davies, who between them have used disruptive tactics on two new private members' bills, loathe many backbench bids to reform the law and see it their moral crusade to challenge them.

    Two of the most prominent figures on the libertarian Right of the Conservative Party, the pair regard many private members' bills as politically correct, nanny state nonsense seeking to meddle in people's lives and curb their personal freedom."


    https://news.sky.com/story/why-mp-sir-christopher-chope-objected-to-making-upskirting-a-criminal-offence-11406015

    Philip Davies and Chris Chope arent libertarians they're just arseholes.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914
    HYUFD said:

    There will be an exit deal, the basis of which was already agreed last December, a FTA will take a few more years and there was never any chance of it being ready by October
    Hold on doesn't it need to be ratified by all EU parliament's starting from October ?

    The Govt/ parliament surely have factored in time needed into all their calculations ?
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    There's been quite a few teams who didn't look impressive in their first match who went on to win the EC - England 1966. Italy 1982 and Spain 2010 for example.

    The list of teams who did look brilliant in their first game but didn't win the WC is even longer.

    Can a team look brilliant while conceding three sloppy goals and failing to win a match where it had been favoured to win?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,914

    kle4 said:

    In the past, I have said that there are some Labour MPs - for example Jeremy Corbyn - who have not grown up emotionally or intellectually since their years emulating (or foreshadowing) Rick at university.

    There are also some Conservative MPs who have not grown up emotionally or intellectually since they were in the common room at school, sniggering as they work out their next wizard wheeze.

    Chope is stupid. He may be well-spoken; he may believe he is intelligent, but what he did today shows massive political naivety. And yet he has been an MP for decades ...

    Agreed. Doesn't look like he has ever had to strive much to make his way in life. Great advert for abolishing private schools imo.
    One chap being an arse is a great advert for abolishing private schools? Will you do a 180 when you see a private school alumnus who spends his days rescuing injured puppies?

    Would he have had to strive that much more if private schools did not exist?

    Note: I did not attend a private school. I should hope better arguments exist for their abolition than Sir Christopher Chope (who may, in other respects, be a decent parliamentarian for all I know)
    My point is: private education gives a small wealthy minority of the country the chance to ensure their offspring have much better opportunities (on average) than the population at large... One consequence is that nonentities end up in jobs that their natural talents don't really deserve.

    (PS I don't doubt that many extremely talented people go through private education and deservedly end up in high-powered, well-paid jobs - but I also know that some numpties go through it too and end up in jobs way beyond their true capabilities... to the detriment of the country.)

    I think you're getting private schooling mixed up with the advantages those going to Eton and Harrow would enjoy even if there were no private schooling due to people their Dad knows and stuff. Going to a private school gave me a good education but no particular advantage beyond that.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,952
    AndyJS said:

    Sky News report:

    "Sir Christopher Chope and Philip Davies, who between them have used disruptive tactics on two new private members' bills, loathe many backbench bids to reform the law and see it their moral crusade to challenge them.

    Two of the most prominent figures on the libertarian Right of the Conservative Party, the pair regard many private members' bills as politically correct, nanny state nonsense seeking to meddle in people's lives and curb their personal freedom."


    https://news.sky.com/story/why-mp-sir-christopher-chope-objected-to-making-upskirting-a-criminal-offence-11406015

    As long as you view taking photos of people's underwear without their consent, as "politically correct, nanny state nonsense" then carry on.
    Forgive me if I disagree.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,954

    Anazina said:

    surby said:

    stodge said:

    Evening all :)

    Just watched Portugal vs Spain - a tremendous game and worthy of a World Cup Final or at the very least semi-final and if one of those two teams isn't there at the very end I'll be surprised.

    More entertaining than a District Council by-election, more exciting than a Vince Cable speech and that's saying something !!

    You have already seen the champion of WC 2018.
    Way, way too soon to say that. Lots of talent to come, lots of twists and turns ahead.
    There's been quite a few teams who didn't look impressive in their first match who went on to win the EC - England 1966. Italy 1982 and Spain 2010 for example.

    The list of teams who did look brilliant in their first game but didn't win the WC is even longer.
    Or, the 2016 Euros
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,954


    I'm not objecting to people criticising Chope. I'm suggesting people should try to understand what he's objecting to and why before criticising him. I'm also suggesting any such criticisms should be in vaguely understandable English.

    It is what he is objecting to that is idiotic. I would have more sympathy if he were to object to specific PMBs but to claim that they should all be opposed because they might be poorly drafted is basically him circumventing the whole Parliamentary process whose job it is to take bills and craft them into laws worth having. That is why we have committees and Lords scrutiny.

    Removing the ability for the committees and the Lords to do that wholesale does not serve the democratic process.
    +1
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited June 2018
    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    There will be an exit deal, the basis of which was already agreed last December, a FTA will take a few more years and there was never any chance of it being ready by October
    Hold on doesn't it need to be ratified by all EU parliament's starting from October ?

    The Govt/ parliament surely have factored in time needed into all their calculations ?
    Yes and 6 months is more than enough time for them to do so, especially as most of them have citizens in the UK and want their share of the exit bill
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419



    Well said Neilh. Reading the Bill and then commenting on it puts you in a much better light than the many virtue signallers who criticised Chope without bothering to find out what he'd objected to, why he'd objected or whether what he'd objected to was any good. Respect.

    As I said earlier, the position of Chope and a couple of others who routinely block ALL PMBs is that they disapprove of backbench Bill becoming law (they believe there are too many laws and that necessary laws should be introduced in Government time, imposing a natural limit). It is in reality nothing to do with the amount of time given to debate a Bill, or of dislike of the Bill itself.

    The problem with this has nothing to do with the virtues or otherwise of the Bill. It's that it subverts part of the way Parliament is supposed to work. It's an intended feature of Parliamentary democracy that individual MPs should be able to put forward proposals and if they have sufficient support or are even entirely unopposed they will eventually become law. This avoids the notion that all good ideas come from the Government of the day, which the most cursory review of presentr and past governments suggests is incorrect.
    How big a job is it amending the rules (standing orders?) so that if an MP objects, it's simply put to a vote as to whether the Bill's blocked?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,954

    Scott_P said:
    Really? She was a high profile Leave supporter all the way through and stood for and won her seat again at the subsequent election. She did so with 57% of the vote - an absolute majority.
    Like with Soubry, I can't believe her constituents didn't know her views, and chose to elect her anyway
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,954
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    In the past, I have said that there are some Labour MPs - for example Jeremy Corbyn - who have not grown up emotionally or intellectually since their years emulating (or foreshadowing) Rick at university.

    There are also some Conservative MPs who have not grown up emotionally or intellectually since they were in the common room at school, sniggering as they work out their next wizard wheeze.

    Chope is stupid. He may be well-spoken; he may believe he is intelligent, but what he did today shows massive political naivety. And yet he has been an MP for decades ...

    Agreed. Doesn't look like he has ever had to strive much to make his way in life. Great advert for abolishing private schools imo.
    One chap being an arse is a great advert for abolishing private schools? Will you do a 180 when you see a private school alumnus who spends his days rescuing injured puppies?

    Would he have had to strive that much more if private schools did not exist?

    Note: I did not attend a private school. I should hope better arguments exist for their abolition than Sir Christopher Chope (who may, in other respects, be a decent parliamentarian for all I know)
    My point is: private education gives a small wealthy minority of the country the chance to ensure their offspring have much better opportunities (on average) than the population at large... One consequence is that nonentities end up in jobs that their natural talents don't really deserve.

    (PS I don't doubt that many extremely talented people go through private education and deservedly end up in high-powered, well-paid jobs - but I also know that some numpties go through it too and end up in jobs way beyond their true capabilities... to the detriment of the country.)

    Most private schools also offer bursaries and scholarships to talented pupils who would otherwise be unable to afford the fees
    That's discrimination : they should offer then to poor but stupid children too
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    There will be an exit deal, the basis of which was already agreed last December, a FTA will take a few more years and there was never any chance of it being ready by October
    Hold on doesn't it need to be ratified by all EU parliament's starting from October ?

    The Govt/ parliament surely have factored in time needed into all their calculations ?
    Yes and 6 months is more than enough time for them to do so, especially as most of them have citizens in the UK and want their share of the exit bill
    Are you sure about that? The treaty only requires the Council and EP to sign it off. Presumably each country will have its own rules about what its government can sign up to but this isn't the same as ratifying a treaty.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983
    edited June 2018
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    In the past, I have said that there are some Labour MPs - for example Jeremy Corbyn - who have not grown up emotionally or intellectually since their years emulating (or foreshadowing) Rick at university.

    There are also some Conservative MPs who have not grown up emotionally or intellectually since they were in the common room at school, sniggering as they work out their next wizard wheeze.

    Chope is stupid. He may be well-spoken; he may believe he is intelligent, but what he did today shows massive political naivety. And yet he has been an MP for decades ...

    Agreed. Doesn't look like he has ever had to strive much to make his way in life. Great advert for abolishing private schools imo.
    One chap being an arse is a great advert for abolishing private schools? Will you do a 180 when you see a private school alumnus who spends his days rescuing injured puppies?

    Would he have had to strive that much more if private schools did not exist?

    Note: I did not attend a private school. I should hope better arguments exist for their abolition than Sir Christopher Chope (who may, in other respects, be a decent parliamentarian for all I know)
    My point is: private education gives a small wealthy minority of the country the chance to ensure their offspring have much better opportunities (on average) than the population at large... One consequence is that nonentities end up in jobs that their natural talents don't really deserve.

    (PS I don't doubt that many extremely talented people go through private education and deservedly end up in high-powered, well-paid jobs - but I also know that some numpties go through it too and end up in jobs way beyond their true capabilities... to the detriment of the country.)

    Most private schools also offer bursaries and scholarships to talented pupils who would otherwise be unable to afford the fees
    That's discrimination : they should offer then to poor but stupid children too
    Those which offer scholarships are mostly meant to be elite academic institutions, you may as well require Oxbridge to offer places to students without GCSEs.

    Of course there are private schools which cater for the less academic as well and also provide excellent extra curricula activities.
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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,149


    The problem with this has nothing to do with the virtues or otherwise of the Bill. It's that it subverts part of the way Parliament is supposed to work. It's an intended feature of Parliamentary democracy that individual MPs should be able to put forward proposals and if they have sufficient support or are even entirely unopposed they will eventually become law. This avoids the notion that all good ideas come from the Government of the day, which the most cursory review of presentr and past governments suggests is incorrect.

    It feels like there should be a middle way between "this can only happen with the support of the government in which case it's basically unstoppable" and "you get to do this at random, then absolutely anybody can kill it".

    Each MP gets to put forward one bill, an all-party committee votes on the best dozen, they get proper time, something like that, how hard can this be?
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,326



    Well said Neilh. Reading the Bill and then commenting on it puts you in a much better light than the many virtue signallers who criticised Chope without bothering to find out what he'd objected to, why he'd objected or whether what he'd objected to was any good. Respect.

    As I said earlier, the position of Chope and a couple of others who routinely block ALL PMBs is that they disapprove of backbench Bill becoming law (they believe there are too many laws and that necessary laws should be introduced in Government time, imposing a natural limit). It is in reality nothing to do with the amount of time given to debate a Bill, or of dislike of the Bill itself.

    The problem with this has nothing to do with the virtues or otherwise of the Bill. It's that it subverts part of the way Parliament is supposed to work. It's an intended feature of Parliamentary democracy that individual MPs should be able to put forward proposals and if they have sufficient support or are even entirely unopposed they will eventually become law. This avoids the notion that all good ideas come from the Government of the day, which the most cursory review of presentr and past governments suggests is incorrect.
    How big a job is it amending the rules (standing orders?) so that if an MP objects, it's simply put to a vote as to whether the Bill's blocked?
    Not sure, but clearly a good idea and the Government could no doubt do it with Opposition support if they wanted to. Successive Governments basically haven't cared much either way about most backbench bills - the idea that only the Government gets to do it has obvious attractions for governments. But it does get silly when Government-supported Bills also fall victim to lone assassins.

    The tlop 8 Bills (chosen at random) do get more time, making it harder to block them by filibustering - MPs who are lucky in the draw for this are swamped with requests for Bills from all manner of good causes.
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    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    In the past, I have said that there are some Labour MPs - for example Jeremy Corbyn - who have not grown up emotionally or intellectually since their years emulating (or foreshadowing) Rick at university.

    There are also some Conservative MPs who have not grown up emotionally or intellectually since they were in the common room at school, sniggering as they work out their next wizard wheeze.

    Chope is stupid. He may be well-spoken; he may believe he is intelligent, but what he did today shows massive political naivety. And yet he has been an MP for decades ...

    Agreed. Doesn't look like he has ever had to strive much to make his way in life. Great advert for abolishing private schools imo.
    One chap being an arse is a great advert for abolishing private schools? Will you do a 180 when you see a private school alumnus who spends his days rescuing injured puppies?

    Would he have had to strive that much more if private schools did not exist?

    Note: I did not attend a private school. I should hope better arguments exist for their abolition than Sir Christopher Chope (who may, in other respects, be a decent parliamentarian for all I know)
    My point is: private education gives a small wealthy minority of the country the chance to ensure their offspring have much better opportunities (on average) than the population at large... One consequence is that nonentities end up in jobs that their natural talents don't really deserve.

    (PS I don't doubt that many extremely talented people go through private education and deservedly end up in high-powered, well-paid jobs - but I also know that some numpties go through it too and end up in jobs way beyond their true capabilities... to the detriment of the country.)

    Most private schools also offer bursaries and scholarships to talented pupils who would otherwise be unable to afford the fees
    That's discrimination : they should offer then to poor but stupid children too
    I really hope you are joking but these days it is hard to tell.
  • Options
    archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612
    HYUFD said:

    There will be an exit deal, the basis of which was already agreed last December, a FTA will take a few more years and there was never any chance of it being ready by October
    Ah, good to see the Tory surrender in full flow. The exit deal gives the EU everything they asked for, and the UK gets nothing in return. We agree to pay 40bn and we get to ask nicely for a trade deal later. What a shambles.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Six types of ‘useful idiot’

    James Bloodworth"

    https://unherd.com/2018/06/six-types-useful-idiot/
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    In the past, I have said that there are some Labour MPs - for example Jeremy Corbyn - who have not grown up emotionally or intellectually since their years emulating (or foreshadowing) Rick at university.

    There are also some Conservative MPs who have not grown up emotionally or intellectually since they were in the common room at school, sniggering as they work out their next wizard wheeze.

    Chope is stupid. He may be well-spoken; he may believe he is intelligent, but what he did today shows massive political naivety. And yet he has been an MP for decades ...

    Agreed. Doesn't look like he has ever had to strive much to make his way in life. Great advert for abolishing private schools imo.
    One chap being an arse is a great advert for abolishing private schools? Will you do a 180 when you see a private school alumnus who spends his days rescuing injured puppies?

    Would he have had to strive that much more if private schools did not exist?

    Note: I did not attend a private school. I should hope better arguments exist for their abolition than Sir Christopher Chope (who may, in other respects, be a decent parliamentarian for all I know)
    My point is: private education gives a small wealthy minority of the country the chance to ensure their offspring have much better opportunities (on average) than the population at large... One consequence is that nonentities end up in jobs that their natural talents don't really deserve.

    (PS I don't doubt that many extremely talented people go through private education and deservedly end up in high-powered, well-paid jobs - but I also know that some numpties go through it too and end up in jobs way beyond their true capabilities... to the detriment of the country.)

    Most private schools also offer bursaries and scholarships to talented pupils who would otherwise be unable to afford the fees
    That's discrimination : they should offer then to poor but stupid children too
    What about rich but poor children who are too stupid to pass the entrance exams for private schools even thought their parents can afford the fees?
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,961
    New thread
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,983

    HYUFD said:

    There will be an exit deal, the basis of which was already agreed last December, a FTA will take a few more years and there was never any chance of it being ready by October
    Ah, good to see the Tory surrender in full flow. The exit deal gives the EU everything they asked for, and the UK gets nothing in return. We agree to pay 40bn and we get to ask nicely for a trade deal later. What a shambles.
    No we get mutual protection of citizens rights and the avoidance of a hard border in Ireland
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    AndyJS said:

    Sky News report:

    "Sir Christopher Chope and Philip Davies, who between them have used disruptive tactics on two new private members' bills, loathe many backbench bids to reform the law and see it their moral crusade to challenge them.

    Two of the most prominent figures on the libertarian Right of the Conservative Party, the pair regard many private members' bills as politically correct, nanny state nonsense seeking to meddle in people's lives and curb their personal freedom."


    https://news.sky.com/story/why-mp-sir-christopher-chope-objected-to-making-upskirting-a-criminal-offence-11406015

    Voted against gay marriage. Hardly fucking libertarian is it.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,304



    Well said Neilh. Reading the Bill and then commenting on it puts you in a much better light than the many virtue signallers who criticised Chope without bothering to find out what he'd objected to, why he'd objected or whether what he'd objected to was any good. Respect.

    As I said earlier, the position of Chope and a couple of others who routinely block ALL PMBs is that they disapprove of backbench Bill becoming law (they believe there are too many laws and that necessary laws should be introduced in Government time, imposing a natural limit). It is in reality nothing to do with the amount of time given to debate a Bill, or of dislike of the Bill itself.

    The problem with this has nothing to do with the virtues or otherwise of the Bill. It's that it subverts part of the way Parliament is supposed to work. It's an intended feature of Parliamentary democracy that individual MPs should be able to put forward proposals and if they have sufficient support or are even entirely unopposed they will eventually become law. This avoids the notion that all good ideas come from the Government of the day, which the most cursory review of presentr and past governments suggests is incorrect.
    How big a job is it amending the rules (standing orders?) so that if an MP objects, it's simply put to a vote as to whether the Bill's blocked?
    Exactly my point yesterday.
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