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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Losing today’s Brexit vote could prove fatal for Mrs. May’s pr

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  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,994
    Last I read on the Southgate tube 'explosion' was that it was a battery in a tool going bang. Which was believable.

    Now, however:
    "A 23-year-old man has been arrested after an explosion at a north London Tube station left five people injured."
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44547726
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,610

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wonder what the next ruble fuelled wheeze after Brexit will be. Quitting NATO? Corbyn government. Anything's possible!

    Serious question, do you support Corbyn?

    I thought you were a big cheerleader of his.
    I think @Dura_Ace is in the same political spot as me. No Corbyn fan, but still prefered over the current government.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Incredible to think Sajid Javid could be PM within a few days. What a meteoric rise to the top that would be.
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    AndyJS said:

    "'Oxbridge white blokes' like Monty Python have had their day, says BBC comedy boss"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/19/oxbridge-white-blokes-like-monty-python-have-had-day-says-bbc/

    When was the last knock out Comedy Hit the Beeb had. The Office?
    The Office wasn't funny.

    Detectorists is in with a shout.
    Detectorists is (was?) a very good, well-written and -acted show. However, it's gentle humour. There's nothing wrong with that and I really enjoy it. But it's not Blackadder.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2018
    AndyJS said:

    Incredible to think Sajid Javid could be PM within a few days. What a meteoric rise to the top that would be.

    From humble beginning as the son of a bus driver....
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:

    "'Oxbridge white blokes' like Monty Python have had their day, says BBC comedy boss"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/19/oxbridge-white-blokes-like-monty-python-have-had-day-says-bbc/

    When was the last knock out Comedy Hit the Beeb had. The Office?
    The Office wasn't funny.

    Detectorists is in with a shout.
    I thought The Office was hilarious when I watched it again a few months ago. I didn't really get it when it was originally broadcast.
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    AndyJS said:

    "'Oxbridge white blokes' like Monty Python have had their day, says BBC comedy boss"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/19/oxbridge-white-blokes-like-monty-python-have-had-day-says-bbc/

    When was the last knock out Comedy Hit the Beeb had. The Office?
    The Office wasn't funny.

    Detectorists is in with a shout.
    Detectorists is (was?) a very good, well-written and -acted show. However, it's gentle humour. There's nothing wrong with that and I really enjoy it. But it's not Blackadder.
    Only the second and third series of Blackadder are any good. The other two are distinctly average. The final scene is the most overrated scene in British TV history.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,610
    Cyclefree said:

    Miss Cyclefree, for some, 'diversity' trumps competence. There's been some furore over comments Shriver made regarding Penguin's drive for diversity, including Shriver being axed from a judging panel.

    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1008363778474496005

    On a more minor note, last year I was attacked somewhat on Twitter for my apparently odious claim that books should be judged on quality, not the demographics of the author (but I would say that, being an evil white man...).

    Indeed, we risk becoming as a society quite as obsessed with minute gradations of skin colour and other irrelevant and unchangeable characteristics as some historically evil and unpleasant regimes. It is not an improvement.

    And the one thing which probably affects your chances in Britain more than any other - class - is all too often ignored.

    https://unherd.com/2018/04/diversity-debate-left-white-working-classes-behind/
    Indeed external stigmata of diversity can inhibit real diversity of experience.

    Having said that, publishing and other arts thrive on novelty and exposure to other cultures. History is full of examples, and exposure to other cultures gives insight into our own. Travel broadens the mind, but travels in the literary imagination do too.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    AndyJS said:

    "'Oxbridge white blokes' like Monty Python have had their day, says BBC comedy boss"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/19/oxbridge-white-blokes-like-monty-python-have-had-day-says-bbc/

    When was the last knock out Comedy Hit the Beeb had. The Office?
    The Office wasn't funny.

    Detectorists is in with a shout.
    Detectorists is (was?) a very good, well-written and -acted show. However, it's gentle humour. There's nothing wrong with that and I really enjoy it. But it's not Blackadder.
    Only the second and third series of Blackadder are any good. The other two are distinctly average. The final scene is the most overrated scene in British TV history.
    4th was my favourite, but I agree the first is weakest.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,610

    AndyJS said:

    "'Oxbridge white blokes' like Monty Python have had their day, says BBC comedy boss"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/19/oxbridge-white-blokes-like-monty-python-have-had-day-says-bbc/

    When was the last knock out Comedy Hit the Beeb had. The Office?
    The Office wasn't funny.

    Detectorists is in with a shout.
    Detectorists is (was?) a very good, well-written and -acted show. However, it's gentle humour. There's nothing wrong with that and I really enjoy it. But it's not Blackadder.
    Only the second and third series of Blackadder are any good. The other two are distinctly average. The final scene is the most overrated scene in British TV history.
    I agree. The final Blackadder is just a rehash of Journey's End.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    DavidL said:

    Miss Cyclefree, for some, 'diversity' trumps competence. There's been some furore over comments Shriver made regarding Penguin's drive for diversity, including Shriver being axed from a judging panel.

    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1008363778474496005

    On a more minor note, last year I was attacked somewhat on Twitter for my apparently odious claim that books should be judged on quality, not the demographics of the author (but I would say that, being an evil white man...).

    I am mildly embarrassed to admit that until this furore I had actually thought Lionel Shriver was a man and I had not read any of her works. But she can write and is on my reading list now. Anyone got a particular recommendation?
    We Need To Talk About Kevin.
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    I actually think if May loses this vote, she'll resign.
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,995

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wonder what the next ruble fuelled wheeze after Brexit will be. Quitting NATO? Corbyn government. Anything's possible!

    Serious question, do you support Corbyn?

    I thought you were a big cheerleader of his.
    I will certainly be voting for him but reckon him to be an appalling leader of people, genuinely dim witted, lazy and therefore unlikely to achieve much of anything for good or ill.

    Tory leavers deserve the Corbynisation that is coming inexorably their way like a massive myocardial infarction.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    "'Oxbridge white blokes' like Monty Python have had their day, says BBC comedy boss"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/19/oxbridge-white-blokes-like-monty-python-have-had-day-says-bbc/

    When was the last knock out Comedy Hit the Beeb had. The Office?
    The Office wasn't funny.

    Detectorists is in with a shout.
    I thought The Office was hilarious when I watched it again a few months ago. I didn't really get it when it was originally broadcast.
    The CRTs on the desks dates it, but yes, it was very good.
  • Options
    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,546
    Scott_P said:
    Seriously - did they really think Dominic Grieve would fall for that? Talk of underestimating your opponent. A sign of a complete breakdown in trust though.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Oh dear....Cameron's infamous words again...

    https://twitter.com/BeardedGenius/status/1009375836141772800
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    I actually think if May loses this vote, she'll resign.

    I agree.
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,304

    I actually think if May loses this vote, she'll resign.

    She won't resign. She'll just get her little soldiers to cry 'traitors traitors traitors' for a bit, and we'll all carry on like before.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2018
    rkrkrk said:

    AndyJS said:

    "'Oxbridge white blokes' like Monty Python have had their day, says BBC comedy boss"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/19/oxbridge-white-blokes-like-monty-python-have-had-day-says-bbc/

    When was the last knock out Comedy Hit the Beeb had. The Office?
    The Office wasn't funny.

    Detectorists is in with a shout.
    Detectorists is (was?) a very good, well-written and -acted show. However, it's gentle humour. There's nothing wrong with that and I really enjoy it. But it's not Blackadder.
    Only the second and third series of Blackadder are any good. The other two are distinctly average. The final scene is the most overrated scene in British TV history.
    4th was my favourite, but I agree the first is weakest.
    The first series was nothing like the other three.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    Miss Cyclefree, for some, 'diversity' trumps competence. There's been some furore over comments Shriver made regarding Penguin's drive for diversity, including Shriver being axed from a judging panel.

    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1008363778474496005

    On a more minor note, last year I was attacked somewhat on Twitter for my apparently odious claim that books should be judged on quality, not the demographics of the author (but I would say that, being an evil white man...).

    I am mildly embarrassed to admit that until this furore I had actually thought Lionel Shriver was a man and I had not read any of her works. But she can write and is on my reading list now. Anyone got a particular recommendation?
    We Need To Talk About Kevin.
    Thanks. My wife suggested that too.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Miss Cyclefree, for some, 'diversity' trumps competence. There's been some furore over comments Shriver made regarding Penguin's drive for diversity, including Shriver being axed from a judging panel.

    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1008363778474496005

    On a more minor note, last year I was attacked somewhat on Twitter for my apparently odious claim that books should be judged on quality, not the demographics of the author (but I would say that, being an evil white man...).

    Indeed, we risk becoming as a society quite as obsessed with minute gradations of skin colour and other irrelevant and unchangeable characteristics as some historically evil and unpleasant regimes. It is not an improvement.

    And the one thing which probably affects your chances in Britain more than any other - class - is all too often ignored.

    https://unherd.com/2018/04/diversity-debate-left-white-working-classes-behind/
    Indeed external stigmata of diversity can inhibit real diversity of experience.

    Having said that, publishing and other arts thrive on novelty and exposure to other cultures. History is full of examples, and exposure to other cultures gives insight into our own. Travel broadens the mind, but travels in the literary imagination do too.
    Oh I am all in favour of looking in unexpected or previously ignored places for talent. And if the search for diversity was that all to the good. We need to see past the superficial in people for their potential and talent. But that applies just as much to white males, even well educated ones, as to anyone else.

    But too often the search for diversity seems to be turning into a mechanical enumeration of certain characteristics as if diversity is a statistical quota numbers game. And it also seems to be turning its back on the varied and diverse experience of the very many parts of what remains the majority of the population. How often do you get the perspective from Western Cumbria or the North East, say? To listen to some, you’d think that no-one can read or write outside London and the Cotswolds.
  • Options
    tpfkartpfkar Posts: 1,546

    I actually think if May loses this vote, she'll resign.

    She won't resign. She'll just get her little soldiers to cry 'traitors traitors traitors' for a bit, and we'll all carry on like before.
    Genuine question - why would losing this vote be more significant than the one lost back in November/December whenever it was? That was batted off with a shrug, and I can't see why this one wouldn't be as well. I don't buy all the guff about it making the negotiation harder - it's our lack of agreement on the negotiating position that is doing that, not the threats about failing to come to an agreement.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wonder what the next ruble fuelled wheeze after Brexit will be. Quitting NATO? Corbyn government. Anything's possible!

    Serious question, do you support Corbyn?

    I thought you were a big cheerleader of his.
    I will certainly be voting for him but reckon him to be an appalling leader of people, genuinely dim witted, lazy and therefore unlikely to achieve much of anything for good or ill.

    Tory leavers deserve the Corbynisation that is coming inexorably their way like a massive myocardial infarction.
    It’ll be coming your way too.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,115

    AndyJS said:

    "'Oxbridge white blokes' like Monty Python have had their day, says BBC comedy boss"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/19/oxbridge-white-blokes-like-monty-python-have-had-day-says-bbc/

    When was the last knock out Comedy Hit the Beeb had. The Office?
    The Office wasn't funny.

    Detectorists is in with a shout.
    Detectorists is (was?) a very good, well-written and -acted show. However, it's gentle humour. There's nothing wrong with that and I really enjoy it. But it's not Blackadder.
    No - it's just the best most recent thing the BBC has done by way of comedy.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    DavidL said:

    Goodman's tweet emphasises what is at stake here. The pressure on Tory rebels will be immense. I expect a reasonably comfortable victory for May for that reason. Surely no one wants the chaos of a leadership election at this point.

    Like @Alastair_Meeks I am having some trouble working out how the Lords amendment is supposed to work in the real world anyway. It seems to work on the hypothesis that Parliament will have choices which will not in fact exist and are not in our gift. Which is a bit silly if you think about it.

    Tessie dropped me an e-mail this morning telling me that she had given the NHS a birthday present that she was going to fund with money from the EU contributions and a tax increase. I'm sure that is just a coincidence.

    No reason why the pressure on Tory rebels will be any greater than last week though when the Government won by 26 votes. Labour now hasone additional MP and the two Tories who abstained - Lee and Allen - can be expected to now vote against.Without any further changes that would imply a majority of 23. However, Tories such as Grieve, Woolaston, Sandbach, Morgan, Hammond,Nield, Djanogly who supported the Government last time are now likely to vote the other way and that would reduce the majority to 9.How will people such as Vaisey, Freeman, Masterton and Greening vote?
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,077
    DavidL said:

    Miss Cyclefree, for some, 'diversity' trumps competence. There's been some furore over comments Shriver made regarding Penguin's drive for diversity, including Shriver being axed from a judging panel.

    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1008363778474496005

    On a more minor note, last year I was attacked somewhat on Twitter for my apparently odious claim that books should be judged on quality, not the demographics of the author (but I would say that, being an evil white man...).

    I am mildly embarrassed to admit that until this furore I had actually thought Lionel Shriver was a man and I had not read any of her works. But she can write and is on my reading list now. Anyone got a particular recommendation?
    Ole Lionel has one thing in common with Jezza, a 'complicated' relationship with NI terrori..err..freedom fighters.

    'Lionel Shriver, The UFF Mug and British Terrorism In Ireland'

    https://tinyurl.com/ydy8abzm
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wonder what the next ruble fuelled wheeze after Brexit will be. Quitting NATO? Corbyn government. Anything's possible!

    Serious question, do you support Corbyn?

    I thought you were a big cheerleader of his.
    I will certainly be voting for him but reckon him to be an appalling leader of people, genuinely dim witted, lazy and therefore unlikely to achieve much of anything for good or ill.

    Tory leavers deserve the Corbynisation that is coming inexorably their way like a massive myocardial infarction.
    Interesting. This reflects my position too and, I believe, many on the left of centre. We don't rate Corbyn but frankly a Corbyn-led Labour government would be far, far better than this current apology for a government.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,426
    Scott_P said:
    Were their pants on fire as they said that ?
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    DavidL said:

    Miss Cyclefree, for some, 'diversity' trumps competence. There's been some furore over comments Shriver made regarding Penguin's drive for diversity, including Shriver being axed from a judging panel.

    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1008363778474496005

    On a more minor note, last year I was attacked somewhat on Twitter for my apparently odious claim that books should be judged on quality, not the demographics of the author (but I would say that, being an evil white man...).

    I am mildly embarrassed to admit that until this furore I had actually thought Lionel Shriver was a man and I had not read any of her works. But she can write and is on my reading list now. Anyone got a particular recommendation?
    We need to talk about Kevin is a remarkable book. She took an incredibly difficult subject and handled it very well.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    justin124 said:

    DavidL said:

    Goodman's tweet emphasises what is at stake here. The pressure on Tory rebels will be immense. I expect a reasonably comfortable victory for May for that reason. Surely no one wants the chaos of a leadership election at this point.

    Like @Alastair_Meeks I am having some trouble working out how the Lords amendment is supposed to work in the real world anyway. It seems to work on the hypothesis that Parliament will have choices which will not in fact exist and are not in our gift. Which is a bit silly if you think about it.

    Tessie dropped me an e-mail this morning telling me that she had given the NHS a birthday present that she was going to fund with money from the EU contributions and a tax increase. I'm sure that is just a coincidence.

    No reason why the pressure on Tory rebels will be any greater than last week though when the Government won by 26 votes. Labour now hasone additional MP and the two Tories who abstained - Lee and Allen - can be expected to now vote against.Without any further changes that would imply a majority of 23. However, Tories such as Grieve, Woolaston, Sandbach, Morgan, Hammond,Nield, Djanogly who supported the Government last time are now likely to vote the other way and that would reduce the majority to 9.How will people such as Vaisey, Freeman, Masterton and Greening vote?
    Greening will support the government if she wants a chance at being the mayoral candidate. Vaizey will stay loyal. I don’t know about the others.

  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    edited June 2018
    I do like the first Blackadder series but the failure to nail the protagonist was a great shame. It did have many excellent features, not least Brian Blessed as King Richard IV, but isn't the best series.

    The second is. I like Percy more than George, and Elizabeth I as a petulant psychotic worked very well.

    Edited extra bit: also, the ending theme of the first series is splendid.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    DavidL said:

    Goodman's tweet emphasises what is at stake here. The pressure on Tory rebels will be immense. I expect a reasonably comfortable victory for May for that reason. Surely no one wants the chaos of a leadership election at this point.

    Like @Alastair_Meeks I am having some trouble working out how the Lords amendment is supposed to work in the real world anyway. It seems to work on the hypothesis that Parliament will have choices which will not in fact exist and are not in our gift. Which is a bit silly if you think about it.

    Tessie dropped me an e-mail this morning telling me that she had given the NHS a birthday present that she was going to fund with money from the EU contributions and a tax increase. I'm sure that is just a coincidence.

    Danny Finkelstein argues convincingly today that it makes No Deal more, not less, likely.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Oh dear....Cameron's infamous words again...

    https://twitter.com/BeardedGenius/status/1009375836141772800

    Is it an age thing ?

    My father says similar things.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328
    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wonder what the next ruble fuelled wheeze after Brexit will be. Quitting NATO? Corbyn government. Anything's possible!

    Serious question, do you support Corbyn?

    I thought you were a big cheerleader of his.
    I will certainly be voting for him but reckon him to be an appalling leader of people, genuinely dim witted, lazy and therefore unlikely to achieve much of anything for good or ill.

    Tory leavers deserve the Corbynisation that is coming inexorably their way like a massive myocardial infarction.
    Thanks for your honesty. But I don’t understand why you want to cut off your nose to spite your face?

    Is your hatred of Leavers that irrational? Do you not think the EU has made any mistakes in leading us to where we are now?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    Midfielder Alli missed yesterday’s training session and travelled to a private hospital in St Petersburg to be checked.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-cup/2018/06/19/dele-alli-doubt-panama-match-gareth-southgate-considers-raheem/
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328

    AndyJS said:

    "'Oxbridge white blokes' like Monty Python have had their day, says BBC comedy boss"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/19/oxbridge-white-blokes-like-monty-python-have-had-day-says-bbc/

    When was the last knock out Comedy Hit the Beeb had. The Office?
    The Office wasn't funny.

    Detectorists is in with a shout.
    Detectorists is (was?) a very good, well-written and -acted show. However, it's gentle humour. There's nothing wrong with that and I really enjoy it. But it's not Blackadder.
    Only the second and third series of Blackadder are any good. The other two are distinctly average. The final scene is the most overrated scene in British TV history.
    I agree with you on this.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667
    edited June 2018
    "A new leader, Javid/Hunt/Gove perhaps, could well carry on without going to the country."

    ... but they'd still be need the supportof the HoC for any final deal. (Or in Brexitese, 'have their hands tied by the HoC')
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wonder what the next ruble fuelled wheeze after Brexit will be. Quitting NATO? Corbyn government. Anything's possible!

    Serious question, do you support Corbyn?

    I thought you were a big cheerleader of his.
    I will certainly be voting for him but reckon him to be an appalling leader of people, genuinely dim witted, lazy and therefore unlikely to achieve much of anything for good or ill.

    Tory leavers deserve the Corbynisation that is coming inexorably their way like a massive myocardial infarction.
    Interesting. This reflects my position too and, I believe, many on the left of centre. We don't rate Corbyn but frankly a Corbyn-led Labour government would be far, far better than this current apology for a government.
    I’m curious about this.

    One of the reasons I think so little of the current government is because its leader is so poor.

    Why then would you think that an alternative government led by - to quote @Dura_Ace’s words - “an appalling leader, dim-witted, lazy, unlikely to achieve anything much” would be “far, far better”?
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Miss Cyclefree, for some, 'diversity' trumps competence. There's been some furore over comments Shriver made regarding Penguin's drive for diversity, including Shriver being axed from a judging panel.

    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1008363778474496005

    On a more minor note, last year I was attacked somewhat on Twitter for my apparently odious claim that books should be judged on quality, not the demographics of the author (but I would say that, being an evil white man...).

    Indeed, we risk becoming as a society quite as obsessed with minute gradations of skin colour and other irrelevant and unchangeable characteristics as some historically evil and unpleasant regimes. It is not an improvement.

    And the one thing which probably affects your chances in Britain more than any other - class - is all too often ignored.

    https://unherd.com/2018/04/diversity-debate-left-white-working-classes-behind/
    Indeed external stigmata of diversity can inhibit real diversity of experience.

    Having said that, publishing and other arts thrive on novelty and exposure to other cultures. History is full of examples, and exposure to other cultures gives insight into our own. Travel broadens the mind, but travels in the literary imagination do too.
    Oh I am all in favour of looking in unexpected or previously ignored places for talent. And if the search for diversity was that all to the good. We need to see past the superficial in people for their potential and talent. But that applies just as much to white males, even well educated ones, as to anyone else.

    But too often the search for diversity seems to be turning into a mechanical enumeration of certain characteristics as if diversity is a statistical quota numbers game. And it also seems to be turning its back on the varied and diverse experience of the very many parts of what remains the majority of the population. How often do you get the perspective from Western Cumbria or the North East, say? To listen to some, you’d think that no-one can read or write outside London and the Cotswolds.
    At the same time, writers who do try to write about things they have not experienced get accused of cultural appropriation.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Goodman's tweet emphasises what is at stake here. The pressure on Tory rebels will be immense. I expect a reasonably comfortable victory for May for that reason. Surely no one wants the chaos of a leadership election at this point.

    Like @Alastair_Meeks I am having some trouble working out how the Lords amendment is supposed to work in the real world anyway. It seems to work on the hypothesis that Parliament will have choices which will not in fact exist and are not in our gift. Which is a bit silly if you think about it.

    Tessie dropped me an e-mail this morning telling me that she had given the NHS a birthday present that she was going to fund with money from the EU contributions and a tax increase. I'm sure that is just a coincidence.

    Danny Finkelstein argues convincingly today that it makes No Deal more, not less, likely.
    There's no doubt about that.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    Sean_F said:

    DavidL said:

    Goodman's tweet emphasises what is at stake here. The pressure on Tory rebels will be immense. I expect a reasonably comfortable victory for May for that reason. Surely no one wants the chaos of a leadership election at this point.

    Like @Alastair_Meeks I am having some trouble working out how the Lords amendment is supposed to work in the real world anyway. It seems to work on the hypothesis that Parliament will have choices which will not in fact exist and are not in our gift. Which is a bit silly if you think about it.

    Tessie dropped me an e-mail this morning telling me that she had given the NHS a birthday present that she was going to fund with money from the EU contributions and a tax increase. I'm sure that is just a coincidence.

    Danny Finkelstein argues convincingly today that it makes No Deal more, not less, likely.
    I think he is right (without having read him). The amendment is not much short of delusional and may well leave us both without a deal and without a government (which would inevitably fall in the event that the HoC reject the deal they have negotiated).
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    justin124 said:

    DavidL said:

    Goodman's tweet emphasises what is at stake here. The pressure on Tory rebels will be immense. I expect a reasonably comfortable victory for May for that reason. Surely no one wants the chaos of a leadership election at this point.

    Like @Alastair_Meeks I am having some trouble working out how the Lords amendment is supposed to work in the real world anyway. It seems to work on the hypothesis that Parliament will have choices which will not in fact exist and are not in our gift. Which is a bit silly if you think about it.

    Tessie dropped me an e-mail this morning telling me that she had given the NHS a birthday present that she was going to fund with money from the EU contributions and a tax increase. I'm sure that is just a coincidence.

    No reason why the pressure on Tory rebels will be any greater than last week though when the Government won by 26 votes. Labour now hasone additional MP and the two Tories who abstained - Lee and Allen - can be expected to now vote against.Without any further changes that would imply a majority of 23. However, Tories such as Grieve, Woolaston, Sandbach, Morgan, Hammond,Nield, Djanogly who supported the Government last time are now likely to vote the other way and that would reduce the majority to 9.How will people such as Vaisey, Freeman, Masterton and Greening vote?
    Paul Masterton has never supported this amendment:

    https://twitter.com/PM4EastRen/status/1009341650190168064
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,653

    This could be the most important day for Parliament since the Norway debate.

    This could be the most important day for Parliament since last week.
    +1

    To paraphrase Marie Dressler on Hollywood “You’re only as good as your last vote”
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    Torby_FennelTorby_Fennel Posts: 438
    AndyJS said:



    I thought The Office was hilarious when I watched it again a few months ago. I didn't really get it when it was originally broadcast.

    My brother finds The Office absolutely hilarious but I just don't get it at all. Mind you, he's worked in office environments all his working life and I never have so maybe that's significant?

  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836

    Paris terror suspect Salah Abdeslam is rushed to hospital from prison 'in extreme pain' with suspected appendicitis

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5864503/Paris-terror-suspect-Salah-Abdeslam-rushed-hospital.html

    Don't rush, take your time treating him.

    Do people still get appendicitis? When I was at school, classmates were always disappearing to have their tonsils or appendix whipped out but you don't hear of it these days; mumps and whooping cough also seem to have fallen right off.
    I got it five years ago. It was distinctly unpleasant.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2018

    AndyJS said:



    I thought The Office was hilarious when I watched it again a few months ago. I didn't really get it when it was originally broadcast.

    My brother finds The Office absolutely hilarious but I just don't get it at all. Mind you, he's worked in office environments all his working life and I never have so maybe that's significant?

    I think it certainly helps to have had a crap office job. A bit like Phoenix Nights, if you grew up going to Working Men's clubs in the North, it is much more relatable.
  • Options
    MJWMJW Posts: 1,349

    The whole situation is completely mad. The clock is ticking, we should be in intensive negotiations with the EU. In fact we should have already largely completed negotiations. Instead we are arguing vehemently with ourselves about hypothetical scenarios and options which don't exist. Meanwhile the EU seems equally out with the fairies.

    One can only hope that there is some real discussion going on behind the scenes, and that some last-minute fudge will be created. But it's now too late for business, and especially for the City, which is having to assume no deal and is moving jobs accordingly. Unnecessary damage to our economy (and indeed the EU27's) is now inevitable - and the continuity Remainers and the Lords are at least as much to blame as the headbanging wing of the Brexiteer contingent.

    Edit: Having said that, I agree with those who say the government will win this particular vote. However, the guerrilla attacks will no doubt continue.

    A lot of these problems can be put down to May's initial misjudgements in her 2016 conference speech. In it she judged her main task was to reassure the headbanging wing of the Brexiteers - as a remain PM elected in effect by default. However, the opposite was true - it was her moment to challenge their delusions and make it clear that it would be a difficult technical task. It was also a moment to reassure remainers - who at the time largely reluctantly accepted Brexit would happen in some form - but hardened their attitudes after months of 'Brexit means Brexit' and May effectively arguing that it would be done on the headbangers' terms rather than attempting unity. It also set up a totally unrealistic negotiating position whereby she's promised her party things that the EU were never going to agree to - thus setting up the adversarial negotiations that have resulted in climb downs or fudges since. It was the one point she had a largely open book with Brexit to set out something that would've annoyed the ultras on either side but which was achievable and united those on either side who wanted to be pragmatic about the whole thing. Instead, all sides have become more entrenched as they increasingly see it as a zero sum game rather than a technical project everyone has a stake in and can contribute to.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,328

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wonder what the next ruble fuelled wheeze after Brexit will be. Quitting NATO? Corbyn government. Anything's possible!

    Serious question, do you support Corbyn?

    I thought you were a big cheerleader of his.
    I will certainly be voting for him but reckon him to be an appalling leader of people, genuinely dim witted, lazy and therefore unlikely to achieve much of anything for good or ill.

    Tory leavers deserve the Corbynisation that is coming inexorably their way like a massive myocardial infarction.
    Interesting. This reflects my position too and, I believe, many on the left of centre. We don't rate Corbyn but frankly a Corbyn-led Labour government would be far, far better than this current apology for a government.
    “Far, far better”.

    Is that based on any objective evidence, or are you simply believing the power of your own propaganda, because the current administration has hit you somewhere it hurts?
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    "A new leader, Javid/Hunt/Gove perhaps, could well carry on without going to the country."

    ... but they'd still be need the supportof the HoC for any final deal. (Or in Brexitese, 'have their hands tied by the HoC')

    But they are all smarter and much more flexible than the incumbent whose rigidity on issue after issues flies in the face of political reality. Her mean-spiritedness while at the Home Office was a disgrace.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280
    On the government amendment, would they be mucking around with this sort of nonsense if the quid pro quo was not some of the rebels coming back on side as a result? It looks to me like a non-move which gives some people an excuse to say that my concerns have been assuaged and I will now be supporting the government.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    edited June 2018
    Sean_F said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Miss Cyclefree, for some, 'diversity' trumps competence. There's been some furore over comments Shriver made regarding Penguin's drive for diversity, including Shriver being axed from a judging panel.

    https://twitter.com/FraserNelson/status/1008363778474496005

    On a more minor note, last year I was attacked somewhat on Twitter for my apparently odious claim that books should be judged on quality, not the demographics of the author (but I would say that, being an evil white man...).

    Indeed, we risk becoming as a society quite as obsessed with minute gradations of skin colour and other irrelevant and unchangeable characteristics as some historically evil and unpleasant regimes. It is not an improvement.

    And the one thing which probably affects your chances in Britain more than any other - class - is all too often ignored.

    https://unherd.com/2018/04/diversity-debate-left-white-working-classes-behind/
    Indeed external stigmata of diversity can inhibit real diversity of experience.

    Having said that, publishing and other arts thrive on novelty and exposure to other cultures. History is full of examples, and exposure to other cultures gives insight into our own. Travel broadens the mind, but travels in the literary imagination do too.
    Oh I am all in favour of looking in unexpected or previously ignored places for talent. And if the search for diversity was that all to the good. We need to see past the superficial in people for their potential and talent. But that applies just as much to white males, even well educated ones, as to anyone else.

    But too often the search for diversity seems to be turning into a mechanical enumeration of certain characteristics as if diversity is a statistical quota numbers game. And it also seems to be turning its back on the varied and diverse experience of the very many parts of what remains the majority of the population. How often do you get the perspective from Western Cumbria or the North East, say? To listen to some, you’d think that no-one can read or write outside London and the Cotswolds.
    At the same time, writers who do try to write about things they have not experienced get accused of cultural appropriation.
    Cultural appropriation is nonsense on stilts. Culture is for everyone.

    There is Nina Simone song (I Wish I Knew How It Feels To Be Free, written in 1963), which has two lines in it -

    “I wish you could know
    What it means to be me”.

    That is why we need to learn about, talk about, try and experience and imagine ourselves in other peoples’ shoes. Not shriek like ignorant bullies about appropriating something which is no-one’s exclusive property.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    I do like the first Blackadder series but the failure to nail the protagonist was a great shame. It did have many excellent features, not least Brian Blessed as King Richard IV, but isn't the best series.

    The second is. I like Percy more than George, and Elizabeth I as a petulant psychotic worked very well.

    Edited extra bit: also, the ending theme of the first series is splendid.

    They should do a Brexit Blackadder, with Baldrick as Michael Gove, Melchett as Boris Johnson, Darling as Jacob Rees-Mogg and Blackadder as David Davis.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,612

    AndyJS said:



    I thought The Office was hilarious when I watched it again a few months ago. I didn't really get it when it was originally broadcast.

    My brother finds The Office absolutely hilarious but I just don't get it at all. Mind you, he's worked in office environments all his working life and I never have so maybe that's significant?

    I think it certainly helps to have had a crap office job. A bit like Phoenix Nights, if you grew up going to Working Men's clubs in the North, it is much more relatable.
    Perhaps someone could commission a comedy show featuring a group of characters who sit around in their underpants arguing about politics online....
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836
    Cyclefree said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wonder what the next ruble fuelled wheeze after Brexit will be. Quitting NATO? Corbyn government. Anything's possible!

    Serious question, do you support Corbyn?

    I thought you were a big cheerleader of his.
    I will certainly be voting for him but reckon him to be an appalling leader of people, genuinely dim witted, lazy and therefore unlikely to achieve much of anything for good or ill.

    Tory leavers deserve the Corbynisation that is coming inexorably their way like a massive myocardial infarction.
    Interesting. This reflects my position too and, I believe, many on the left of centre. We don't rate Corbyn but frankly a Corbyn-led Labour government would be far, far better than this current apology for a government.
    I’m curious about this.

    One of the reasons I think so little of the current government is because its leader is so poor.

    Why then would you think that an alternative government led by - to quote @Dura_Ace’s words - “an appalling leader, dim-witted, lazy, unlikely to achieve anything much” would be “far, far better”?
    Think of the scorpion and the frog.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:

    Paris terror suspect Salah Abdeslam is rushed to hospital from prison 'in extreme pain' with suspected appendicitis

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5864503/Paris-terror-suspect-Salah-Abdeslam-rushed-hospital.html

    Don't rush, take your time treating him.

    Do people still get appendicitis? When I was at school, classmates were always disappearing to have their tonsils or appendix whipped out but you don't hear of it these days; mumps and whooping cough also seem to have fallen right off.
    I got it five years ago. It was distinctly unpleasant.
    I believe that appendectomies remain the most common operation.

    I had my appendix out in 2010. I've broken my collarbone (felt like being hit by a truck) and I've had kidney stones. I rate appendicitis my number one worst ever pain. I can remember lying on the anaesthetist's table thinking "just get on with it", not so much for the operation as to knock me out to stop feeling the pain any more.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926

    Midfielder Alli missed yesterday’s training session and travelled to a private hospital in St Petersburg to be checked.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-cup/2018/06/19/dele-alli-doubt-panama-match-gareth-southgate-considers-raheem/

    Sit him for the Panama match, we should be good enough to win without him. Sit him for Belgium too (Providing we beat Panama).
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wonder what the next ruble fuelled wheeze after Brexit will be. Quitting NATO? Corbyn government. Anything's possible!

    Serious question, do you support Corbyn?

    I thought you were a big cheerleader of his.
    I will certainly be voting for him but reckon him to be an appalling leader of people, genuinely dim witted, lazy and therefore unlikely to achieve much of anything for good or ill.

    Tory leavers deserve the Corbynisation that is coming inexorably their way like a massive myocardial infarction.
    Interesting. This reflects my position too and, I believe, many on the left of centre. We don't rate Corbyn but frankly a Corbyn-led Labour government would be far, far better than this current apology for a government.
    “Far, far better”.

    Is that based on any objective evidence, or are you simply believing the power of your own propaganda, because the current administration has hit you somewhere it hurts?
    The objective information is the performance of this government, the weakest in living memory. Makes the Blair-Brown years look like a model of cabinet unity, Major a charismatic leader and Cameron modest.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667
    Cyclefree said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wonder what the next ruble fuelled wheeze after Brexit will be. Quitting NATO? Corbyn government. Anything's possible!

    Serious question, do you support Corbyn?

    I thought you were a big cheerleader of his.
    I will certainly be voting for him but reckon him to be an appalling leader of people, genuinely dim witted, lazy and therefore unlikely to achieve much of anything for good or ill.

    Tory leavers deserve the Corbynisation that is coming inexorably their way like a massive myocardial infarction.
    Interesting. This reflects my position too and, I believe, many on the left of centre. We don't rate Corbyn but frankly a Corbyn-led Labour government would be far, far better than this current apology for a government.
    I’m curious about this.

    One of the reasons I think so little of the current government is because its leader is so poor.

    Why then would you think that an alternative government led by - to quote @Dura_Ace’s words - “an appalling leader, dim-witted, lazy, unlikely to achieve anything much” would be “far, far better”?
    It's a fair question; I have many reasons. To list a few...

    The Labour manifesto was much better than I expected; I rate their policies (so does TMay, apparently as she has started adopting them.) The Tories in contrast are looking like a government that has been in power for 18 years, never mind 8 years; they are bereft of ideas to move the country forward.

    The current government is being dictated to by the extreme eurosceptic ERG cabal of 60-70 MPs who are hell-bent on hard Brexit. No way was (or is) there a majority in the country for hard Brexit. If Labour were in power ERG would become just another pressure group, rather than a real danger to the country.

    Corbyn is not a dicator, complete the opposite (which is part of his problem) - he will need the support of the PLP which will moderate/stop some of the more extreme Momentum wishes.

    I could go on...
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    AndyJS said:

    "'Oxbridge white blokes' like Monty Python have had their day, says BBC comedy boss"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/19/oxbridge-white-blokes-like-monty-python-have-had-day-says-bbc/

    When was the last knock out Comedy Hit the Beeb had. The Office?
    The Office wasn't funny.

    Detectorists is in with a shout.
    Detectorists is (was?) a very good, well-written and -acted show. However, it's gentle humour. There's nothing wrong with that and I really enjoy it. But it's not Blackadder.
    No - it's just the best most recent thing the BBC has done by way of comedy.
    Motherland was excellent, so was Inside Number 9. They're both recent BBC comedies.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280

    "A new leader, Javid/Hunt/Gove perhaps, could well carry on without going to the country."

    ... but they'd still be need the supportof the HoC for any final deal. (Or in Brexitese, 'have their hands tied by the HoC')

    But they are all smarter and much more flexible than the incumbent whose rigidity on issue after issues flies in the face of political reality. Her mean-spiritedness while at the Home Office was a disgrace.
    On one view the steps Javid has been able to take in recent times in respect of visas for NHS staff and cannabis based medicine shows how she is losing her grip and being disrespected. I expect him to announce steps to exclude students from the immigration numbers pretty much any day. Similarly, Hunt has forced her into both accepting that the NHS needs a lot more money and that her government will need to increase taxes to find it. She is increasingly not in control of the agenda of her own party. But I still don't think she will fall today.
  • Options
    anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578
    edited June 2018
    MJW said:



    A lot of these problems can be put down to May's initial misjudgements in her 2016 conference speech. In it she judged her main task was to reassure the headbanging wing of the Brexiteers - as a remain PM elected in effect by default. However, the opposite was true - it was her moment to challenge their delusions and make it clear that it would be a difficult technical task. It was also a moment to reassure remainers - who at the time largely reluctantly accepted Brexit would happen in some form - but hardened their attitudes after months of 'Brexit means Brexit' and May effectively arguing that it would be done on the headbangers' terms rather than attempting unity. It also set up a totally unrealistic negotiating position whereby she's promised her party things that the EU were never going to agree to - thus setting up the adversarial negotiations that have resulted in climb downs or fudges since. It was the one point she had a largely open book with Brexit to set out something that would've annoyed the ultras on either side but which was achievable and united those on either side who wanted to be pragmatic about the whole thing. Instead, all sides have become more entrenched as they increasingly see it as a zero sum game rather than a technical project everyone has a stake in and can contribute to.

    Excellent post, sums it up brilliantly.

    May chose to appease the headbangers and so deepen the toxic divisions in our national life that Brexit has caused. She had a choice - she could have gone for a unifying approach, involving opposition parties and remainers in drawing up a realistic negotiating position, making it clear that leaving would be difficult and the world promised by the leave campaign did not exist. But she chose not to and that choice has led inexorably to the disastrous situation in which the UK now finds itself. Irrespective of the result of the vote this afternoon it is becoming increasingly difficult to see how a crash out Brexit can be avoided.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667

    AndyJS said:



    I thought The Office was hilarious when I watched it again a few months ago. I didn't really get it when it was originally broadcast.

    My brother finds The Office absolutely hilarious but I just don't get it at all. Mind you, he's worked in office environments all his working life and I never have so maybe that's significant?

    I think it certainly helps to have had a crap office job. A bit like Phoenix Nights, if you grew up going to Working Men's clubs in the North, it is much more relatable.
    Perhaps someone could commission a comedy show featuring a group of characters who sit around in their underpants arguing about politics online....
    You've put your underpants on?!
  • Options
    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,995
    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...tion-36b2drlhm

    There is an interesting row brewing in the Defence Select Committee which is a heady and toxic brew of NI sectarianism, coalition rupturing acrimony, MoD incompetence and economic nationalism.

    In contrast with other E-3 operators (France, Saudi, NATO) the UK decided not to join the USAF Block 40/45 mission systems upgrade and describe the money thereby not spent as an "efficiency saving".

    Now the UK Sentry fleet is unreliable, incapable and increasingly irrelevant and needs 2bn quid to bring it back up to par. The RAF/MoD want to do an uncontested Boeing E-7 purchase but the Labour members of the committee are demanding a competition that a "British" aircraft will win and the DUP are demanding that it has to be based on a Bombardier aircraft.

    The last time we went down this route we spent 1bn quid on Nimrod AEW.3 and ended up with a single cockpit on a dolly in the car park of Carlisle airport. It's a big test for the Fireplace Salesman...
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,298
    MJW said:

    The whole situation is completely mad. The clock is ticking, we should be in intensive negotiations with the EU. In fact we should have already largely completed negotiations. Instead we are arguing vehemently with ourselves about hypothetical scenarios and options which don't exist. Meanwhile the EU seems equally out with the fairies.

    One can only hope that there is some real discussion going on behind the scenes, and that some last-minute fudge will be created. But it's now too late for business, and especially for the City, which is having to assume no deal and is moving jobs accordingly. Unnecessary damage to our economy (and indeed the EU27's) is now inevitable - and the continuity Remainers and the Lords are at least as much to blame as the headbanging wing of the Brexiteer contingent.

    Edit: Having said that, I agree with those who say the government will win this particular vote. However, the guerrilla attacks will no doubt continue.

    A lot of these problems can be put down to May's initial misjudgements in her 2016 conference speech. In it she judged her main task was to reassure the headbanging wing of the Brexiteers - as a remain PM elected in effect by default. However, the opposite was true - it was her moment to challenge their delusions and make it clear that it would be a difficult technical task. It was also a moment to reassure remainers - who at the time largely reluctantly accepted Brexit would happen in some form - but hardened their attitudes after months of 'Brexit means Brexit' and May effectively arguing that it would be done on the headbangers' terms rather than attempting unity. It also set up a totally unrealistic negotiating position whereby she's promised her party things that the EU were never going to agree to - thus setting up the adversarial negotiations that have resulted in climb downs or fudges since. It was the one point she had a largely open book with Brexit to set out something that would've annoyed the ultras on either side but which was achievable and united those on either side who wanted to be pragmatic about the whole thing. Instead, all sides have become more entrenched as they increasingly see it as a zero sum game rather than a technical project everyone has a stake in and can contribute to.
    Good post.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836

    Sean_F said:

    Paris terror suspect Salah Abdeslam is rushed to hospital from prison 'in extreme pain' with suspected appendicitis

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5864503/Paris-terror-suspect-Salah-Abdeslam-rushed-hospital.html

    Don't rush, take your time treating him.

    Do people still get appendicitis? When I was at school, classmates were always disappearing to have their tonsils or appendix whipped out but you don't hear of it these days; mumps and whooping cough also seem to have fallen right off.
    I got it five years ago. It was distinctly unpleasant.
    I believe that appendectomies remain the most common operation.

    I had my appendix out in 2010. I've broken my collarbone (felt like being hit by a truck) and I've had kidney stones. I rate appendicitis my number one worst ever pain. I can remember lying on the anaesthetist's table thinking "just get on with it", not so much for the operation as to knock me out to stop feeling the pain any more.
    You have my commiserations.

    Initially, I thought it was just an upset stomach. Then it got worse and worse, until I was shivering uncontrollably.

    I was due to be operated on the following evening, when the nurse told me that the patient in front of me had just had a heart attack, and they were trying to revive him. You can guess how that made me feel.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667

    "A new leader, Javid/Hunt/Gove perhaps, could well carry on without going to the country."

    ... but they'd still be need the supportof the HoC for any final deal. (Or in Brexitese, 'have their hands tied by the HoC')

    But they are all smarter and much more flexible than the incumbent whose rigidity on issue after issues flies in the face of political reality. Her mean-spiritedness while at the Home Office was a disgrace.
    Granted, both points are undoubtedly true.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,612

    AndyJS said:



    I thought The Office was hilarious when I watched it again a few months ago. I didn't really get it when it was originally broadcast.

    My brother finds The Office absolutely hilarious but I just don't get it at all. Mind you, he's worked in office environments all his working life and I never have so maybe that's significant?

    I think it certainly helps to have had a crap office job. A bit like Phoenix Nights, if you grew up going to Working Men's clubs in the North, it is much more relatable.
    Perhaps someone could commission a comedy show featuring a group of characters who sit around in their underpants arguing about politics online....
    You've put your underpants on?!
    Outside my trousers. I'm having a John Major tribute day.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667
    Does anyone know what time the vote is expected?
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    AndyJS said:

    "'Oxbridge white blokes' like Monty Python have had their day, says BBC comedy boss"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/19/oxbridge-white-blokes-like-monty-python-have-had-day-says-bbc/

    When was the last knock out Comedy Hit the Beeb had. The Office?
    The Office wasn't funny.

    Detectorists is in with a shout.
    Detectorists is (was?) a very good, well-written and -acted show. However, it's gentle humour. There's nothing wrong with that and I really enjoy it. But it's not Blackadder.
    Only the second and third series of Blackadder are any good. The other two are distinctly average. The final scene is the most overrated scene in British TV history.
    Disagree. The fourth series is outstanding and the saying that the final scene is overrated is like saying that Hamlet is full of cliches.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667

    AndyJS said:



    I thought The Office was hilarious when I watched it again a few months ago. I didn't really get it when it was originally broadcast.

    My brother finds The Office absolutely hilarious but I just don't get it at all. Mind you, he's worked in office environments all his working life and I never have so maybe that's significant?

    I think it certainly helps to have had a crap office job. A bit like Phoenix Nights, if you grew up going to Working Men's clubs in the North, it is much more relatable.
    Perhaps someone could commission a comedy show featuring a group of characters who sit around in their underpants arguing about politics online....
    You've put your underpants on?!
    Outside my trousers. I'm having a John Major tribute day.
    Very apposite, given the 'Bastards' are about to be out-Bastarded (hopefully).
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,836

    AndyJS said:

    "'Oxbridge white blokes' like Monty Python have had their day, says BBC comedy boss"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/19/oxbridge-white-blokes-like-monty-python-have-had-day-says-bbc/

    When was the last knock out Comedy Hit the Beeb had. The Office?
    The Office wasn't funny.

    Detectorists is in with a shout.
    Detectorists is (was?) a very good, well-written and -acted show. However, it's gentle humour. There's nothing wrong with that and I really enjoy it. But it's not Blackadder.
    Only the second and third series of Blackadder are any good. The other two are distinctly average. The final scene is the most overrated scene in British TV history.
    Disagree. The fourth series is outstanding and the saying that the final scene is overrated is like saying that Hamlet is full of cliches.
    The first series was hit and miss, but I enjoyed it more when I re-watched it. I also enjoyed Series 4.

    But, Series 2 was definitely the best.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667

    AndyJS said:

    "'Oxbridge white blokes' like Monty Python have had their day, says BBC comedy boss"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/19/oxbridge-white-blokes-like-monty-python-have-had-day-says-bbc/

    When was the last knock out Comedy Hit the Beeb had. The Office?
    The Office wasn't funny.

    Detectorists is in with a shout.
    Detectorists is (was?) a very good, well-written and -acted show. However, it's gentle humour. There's nothing wrong with that and I really enjoy it. But it's not Blackadder.
    Only the second and third series of Blackadder are any good. The other two are distinctly average. The final scene is the most overrated scene in British TV history.
    Disagree. The fourth series is outstanding and the saying that the final scene is overrated is like saying that Hamlet is full of cliches.
    Hehe - Shakespeare's full of cliches!
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205

    Cyclefree said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I will certainly be voting for him but reckon him to be an appalling leader of people, genuinely dim witted, lazy and therefore unlikely to achieve much of anything for good or ill.
    Interesting. This reflects my position too and, I believe, many on the left of centre. We don't rate Corbyn but frankly a Corbyn-led Labour government would be far, far better than this current apology for a government.
    I’m curious about this.

    One of the reasons I think so little of the current government is because its leader is so poor.

    Why then would you think that an alternative government led by - to quote @Dura_Ace’s words - “an appalling leader, dim-witted, lazy, unlikely to achieve anything much” would be “far, far better”?
    It's a fair question; I have many reasons. To list a few...

    The Labour manifesto was much better than I expected; I rate their policies (so does TMay, apparently as she has started adopting them.) The Tories in contrast are looking like a government that has been in power for 18 years, never mind 8 years; they are bereft of ideas to move the country forward.

    The current government is being dictated to by the extreme eurosceptic ERG cabal of 60-70 MPs who are hell-bent on hard Brexit. No way was (or is) there a majority in the country for hard Brexit. If Labour were in power ERG would become just another pressure group, rather than a real danger to the country.

    Corbyn is not a dicator, complete the opposite (which is part of his problem) - he will need the support of the PLP which will moderate/stop some of the more extreme Momentum wishes.

    I could go on...
    If he is not going to achieve much and is lazy, why would his policies matter?

    Also, Corbyn is as keen on hard Brexit as the ERG - see his attitude to the EEA, the SM and the CU - and Labour is equally divided so I don’t see how a Corbyn government would materially change the Brexit fundamentals.

    I think good leadership matters and if Corbyn is, as you and Dura Ace have said, an appalling leader, then this is not an improvement, especially if he has to negotiate with his party.

    What you seem to be saying is that you hope that the PLP will moderate him. You may be right. But there is little evidence of that until now and it is just as likely that it will be the more extreme wing of the party which will drive him, in the way that the ERG seem to be doing to May.

    Corbyn is very like May: the ability to hang on and on and defy all attempts to oust him. There is more to leadership than that, as we are seeing with Mrs May.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,426
    The Bishop of Bath & Wells from Blackadder made me want to become a Bishop.

    I have an Aunty like Lady Whiteadder.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Cyclefree said:

    Corbyn is very like May: the ability to hang on and on and defy all attempts to oust him. There is more to leadership than that, as we are seeing with Mrs May.

    ???

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,280

    AndyJS said:

    "'Oxbridge white blokes' like Monty Python have had their day, says BBC comedy boss"

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/06/19/oxbridge-white-blokes-like-monty-python-have-had-day-says-bbc/

    When was the last knock out Comedy Hit the Beeb had. The Office?
    The Office wasn't funny.

    Detectorists is in with a shout.
    Detectorists is (was?) a very good, well-written and -acted show. However, it's gentle humour. There's nothing wrong with that and I really enjoy it. But it's not Blackadder.
    Only the second and third series of Blackadder are any good. The other two are distinctly average. The final scene is the most overrated scene in British TV history.
    Disagree. The fourth series is outstanding and the saying that the final scene is overrated is like saying that Hamlet is full of cliches.
    I am not an enormous fan of the final scene but some of the episodes, notably the court martial one about spotted Jim, are just genius. I thought it was the best of the Blackadders narrowly beating the second one despite the fabulous efforts of Miranda Richardson.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wonder what the next ruble fuelled wheeze after Brexit will be. Quitting NATO? Corbyn government. Anything's possible!

    Serious question, do you support Corbyn?

    I thought you were a big cheerleader of his.
    I will certainly be voting for him but reckon him to be an appalling leader of people, genuinely dim witted, lazy and therefore unlikely to achieve much of anything for good or ill.

    Tory leavers deserve the Corbynisation that is coming inexorably their way like a massive myocardial infarction.
    Interesting. This reflects my position too and, I believe, many on the left of centre. We don't rate Corbyn but frankly a Corbyn-led Labour government would be far, far better than this current apology for a government.
    It really wouldn't. Like-for-like, there's only Starmer who I think might do a better job on a technical level (and even there, he suffers from can't-see-the-wood-for-the-trees syndrome).

    Labour has had a relatively easy time of it of late but virtually their entire shadow cabinet have built their careers around opposition and picking and choosing their topics. The scope and detail of their government commitments, and the practical difficulties of governing in a parliamentary democracy, would come as a very uncomfortable surprise.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Eagles, Money is possibly the single best Blackadder episode.

    All this chat reminds me I need to try and get back into exercising. Mild pestilence and some other disruption (and bone idleness) has meant I haven't done any for ages. [I listen to Blackadder audiobooks whilst exercising].
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    Hopefully Suarez will be able to stick some goals past the Saudis, main reason I picked him was that the group is a joke.
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Labour has had a relatively easy time of it of late but virtually their entire shadow cabinet have built their careers around opposition and picking and choosing their topics. The scope and detail of their government commitments, and the practical difficulties of governing in a parliamentary democracy, would come as a very uncomfortable surprise.

    If that mattered, we would never change government.

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    NormNorm Posts: 1,251

    I actually think if May loses this vote, she'll resign.

    Which could be the reason Corbyn is putting heavy pressure on Lab leavers not to support the gov't.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2018
    BBC vows to increase diversity of senior management by 2020

    Corporation will also adopt US-style ‘Rooney rule’ to ensure BAME candidates on shortlists

    The BBC has said that by 2020 it wants half of its workforce to be women, 8% disabled people, 8% lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender people, and 15% to be from a BAME background.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/2018/jun/20/bbc-vows-to-increase-diversity-of-senior-management-by-2020
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,205
    Jonathan said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Corbyn is very like May: the ability to hang on and on and defy all attempts to oust him. There is more to leadership than that, as we are seeing with Mrs May.

    ???

    I was thinking of his early years as leader when he faced votes of no confidence from the PLP and Shadow Cabinet resignations (though some more junior resignations have happened in recent weeks) which would likely have felled a different leader.

    He does have the advantage over May of having defeated his rivals twice and of having outperformed expectations at the GE. I disagree with @Dura_Ace and @Benpointer on one point: he may be dim and lazy but he is cunning and so I think his capacity to harm is considerably greater than they suppose and the PLP’s ability to restrain him will be largely non-existent. The PLP couldn’t take the skin off a rice pudding.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989
    MJW said:

    The whole situation is completely mad. The clock is ticking, we should be in intensive negotiations with the EU. In fact we should have already largely completed negotiations. Instead we are arguing vehemently with ourselves about hypothetical scenarios and options which don't exist. Meanwhile the EU seems equally out with the fairies.

    One can only hope that there is some real discussion going on behind the scenes, and that some last-minute fudge will be created. But it's now too late for business, and especially for the City, which is having to assume no deal and is moving jobs accordingly. Unnecessary damage to our economy (and indeed the EU27's) is now inevitable - and the continuity Remainers and the Lords are at least as much to blame as the headbanging wing of the Brexiteer contingent.

    Edit: Having said that, I agree with those who say the government will win this particular vote. However, the guerrilla attacks will no doubt continue.

    A lot of these problems can be put down to May's initial misjudgements in her 2016 conference speech. In it she judged her main task was to reassure the headbanging wing of the Brexiteers - as a remain PM elected in effect by default. However, the opposite was true - it was her moment to challenge their delusions and make it clear that it would be a difficult technical task. It was also a moment to reassure remainers - who at the time largely reluctantly accepted Brexit would happen in some form - but hardened their attitudes after months of 'Brexit means Brexit' and May effectively arguing that it would be done on the headbangers' terms rather than attempting unity. It also set up a totally unrealistic negotiating position whereby she's promised her party things that the EU were never going to agree to - thus setting up the adversarial negotiations that have resulted in climb downs or fudges since. It was the one point she had a largely open book with Brexit to set out something that would've annoyed the ultras on either side but which was achievable and united those on either side who wanted to be pragmatic about the whole thing. Instead, all sides have become more entrenched as they increasingly see it as a zero sum game rather than a technical project everyone has a stake in and can contribute to.
    Spot on
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    Norm said:

    I actually think if May loses this vote, she'll resign.

    Which could be the reason Corbyn is putting heavy pressure on Lab leavers not to support the gov't.
    I think there'll only be two Labour rebels, Hoey and Field. Mann, Flint et al will vote on the basis of parliamentary sovereignty - and then probably vote with the Gov't if the 'meaningful vote' actually takes place.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,610
    Hmm. This Gosport Memorial Hospital report is pretty bad. 456 dead.

    More than a little local difficulty:

    https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1009384238255427584?s=19
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2018
    Foxy said:

    Hmm. This Gosport Memorial Hospital report is pretty bad. 456 dead.

    More than a little local difficulty:

    twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1009384238255427584?s=19

    The report found there was a "disregard for human life" of a large number of patients from 1989 and 2000. Dr Jane Barton was responsible for prescribing painkillers over 12 years.

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    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,150
    I don't understand this thread at all.

    If I've got this right the amendment gives parliament the ability to amend a vote on a deal that she may or may not be able to make, and there probably won't be anything they can plausibly amend anyhow, and in theory she has a majority when they vote on it.

    She hasn't resigned yet despite calling an election and losing it, or presiding over a stalled negotiation that's busy going nowhere while her cabinet argue about which of various proposals they should make that they know the EU is going to reject.

    Why would she resign over *this* of all things???
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,289
    Pulpstar said:

    Norm said:

    I actually think if May loses this vote, she'll resign.

    Which could be the reason Corbyn is putting heavy pressure on Lab leavers not to support the gov't.
    I think there'll only be two Labour rebels, Hoey and Field. Mann, Flint et al will vote on the basis of parliamentary sovereignty - and then probably vote with the Gov't if the 'meaningful vote' actually takes place.
    Mann is furious against Grieve and will clearly support the government today - just been on Sky news
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Jonathan said:

    The objective information is the performance of this government, the weakest in living memory. Makes the Blair-Brown years look like a model of cabinet unity, Major a charismatic leader and Cameron modest.

    Actually it's not doing too badly, but leaving that aside, the reason it's one of the weakest in living memory (though not the weakest, for those of old enough to remember the seventies) is that it hasn't got a majority and is facing one of the biggest challenges in living memory. Both would remain true if, God forbid, Corbyn were to become PM, with the added kickers that his front bench is by a country mile the weakest any major party has ever put forward, and he and his Chancellor are extreme left-wingers with an economic programme which would be catastrophic. The only possible saving grace would be that the two of them wouldn't in practice last long, but they could certainly do a lot of damage in the meantime.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,926
    Foxy said:

    Hmm. This Gosport Memorial Hospital report is pretty bad. 456 dead.

    More than a little local difficulty:

    https://twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1009384238255427584?s=19

    Would the motivation be to, put bluntly, keep the ward 'quiet and peaceful' as the patients are all zapped up on opioids ?
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Foxy said:

    Hmm. This Gosport Memorial Hospital report is pretty bad. 456 dead.

    More than a little local difficulty:

    twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1009384238255427584?s=19

    The report found there was a "disregard for human life" of a large number of patients from 1989 and 2000. Dr Jane Barton was responsible for prescribing painkillers over 12 years.

    How does this compare with the US approach to prescribing opioids?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,610

    Foxy said:

    Hmm. This Gosport Memorial Hospital report is pretty bad. 456 dead.

    More than a little local difficulty:

    twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1009384238255427584?s=19

    The report found there was a "disregard for human life" of a large number of patients from 1989 and 2000. Dr Jane Barton was responsible for prescribing painkillers over 12 years.

    No criminal charges against anyone at present, so be careful.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited June 2018
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Hmm. This Gosport Memorial Hospital report is pretty bad. 456 dead.

    More than a little local difficulty:

    twitter.com/BBCBreaking/status/1009384238255427584?s=19

    The report found there was a "disregard for human life" of a large number of patients from 1989 and 2000. Dr Jane Barton was responsible for prescribing painkillers over 12 years.

    No criminal charges against anyone at present, so be careful.
    That is a direct quote from the link. Daily Mail article is much less safe for posting.
This discussion has been closed.