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  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,881

    I don’t know if anyone else has commented on this but Javid seems to be releasing headlines daily now, this one calculated to appeal to Leavers, as his moves on cannabis relaxation might be viewed as more liberal and progressive: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44553225

    Yes. Keep him oñside for Next leader
  • BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113

    surby said:

    TGOHF said:

    Pulpstar said:

    I can't see how the border issue is going to be solved, a while back I thought the backstop fudge would just transpose to the whole of the UK across the Irish sea - but Barnier ruled that out.
    And Weak and Wobbly might sell Northern Ireland out but the DUP won't. I'm intrigued as to how this one will be worked out.

    There doesn't need to be a special border rule for Ireland - you can drive from France to England via a train.

    The ROI can't afford to police the border so it won't be policed physically.

    As it is done now.

    I think you have no understanding of the issue.
    The issue is that despite thousands of international borders existing perfectly normally between hundreds of countries the EU is trying to exploit this one to get a deal where it can can have it's cake and eat it too.

    Does that about sum it up?
    No. The number of people who have died in living memory over the existence of that border means it is anything but normal. As you know full well.
    How's it any different to any border in Eastern Europe then? Let alone the Middle East etc

    Does every former Soviet Union or Yugoslavia state have this cake and eat it solution the EU is seeking?

    Though I agree that given the history of bloodshed in Ireland that the EU and Barniers attempt to exploit that and seek to force an NI only solution with checks on Ferries as Barnier put it is utterly reprehensible.
    As usual you resort to vacuous whataboutery instead of accepting the reality of the situation.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,963
    For the sake of accuracy, the Patten amendment was slightly amended from the version I quoted but has essentially the same meaning.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    That is what May signed up to back in December though. We either stick to it or gain a reputation for not keeping our word.

    Better than that, the Patten amendment is in the Withdrawal Bill/Act, so the government is committed by law not to do anything which creates a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland with wording that is even more severe than in the joint report.

    Nothing in section 7, 8, 9 or 17 of this Act authorises regulations which—

    (a) diminish any form of North-South co-operation across the full range of political, economic, security, societal and agricultural contexts and frameworks of co-operation, including the continued operation of the North-South implementation bodies, or

    (b) create or facilitate border arrangements between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland after exit day which feature—
    (i) physical infrastructure, including border posts,
    (ii) a requirement for customs or regulatory compliance checks,
    (iii) a requirement for security checks,
    (iv) random checks on goods vehicles, or
    (v) any other checks and controls,
    that did not exist before exit day and are not subject to an agreement between Her Majesty’s Government and the Government of Ireland.
    Yes, pretty definite that the Irish have an effective veto on the final Deal.

    Which means that there will either be a customs border in the Irish Sea or the whole of the UK will remain in the single market and customs union.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,881

    My American colleagues tell me the United States Supreme Court has just made an important ruling on sales tax. Maybe RCS will tell us later what this means, both economically and politically.

    Unusually Based Ginsburg sided with the Conservatives
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Technical question. Does anyone else using Chrome have trouble scrolling on PB using the up/down and page up/down keys having expanded a discussion?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,184

    My American colleagues tell me the United States Supreme Court has just made an important ruling on sales tax. Maybe RCS will tell us later what this means, both economically and politically.

    Not really a decision along party political lines, which is unusual for today’s SC...

    It ought to make it a bit easier for states to balance their books, as it requires out of state retailers to collect taxes on sales into the states:
    https://www.politico.com/story/2018/06/21/supreme-court-online-sales-tax-collection-661647

    The larger retailers (Amazon, Apple etc)are already doing this to some extent. Levels the playing field.

    The dissenting Justices felt it should have been left to Congress to legislate on the issue (which is not an unreasonable position), but as Congress can’t agree on it, that wasn’t going to happen any time soon. It’s a pragmatic decision.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,024
    Today's Tesco Strawberry score is again a nine:

    Aberdeenshire
    Angus
    Perthshire
    Fife
    Staffordshire
    Norfolk
    Herefordshire
    Surrey
    Kent

    The main point of interest being that a record four Scottish areas of origin.

    There appears to be an increase in other British soft fruits with raspberries from Cambridgeshire, Herefordshire, Kent and West Sussex, Blueberries from Berkshire and West Sussex and blackberries from West Sussex.

    I find it curious that West Sussex has been a source of strawberries, raspberries, blueberries and blackberries but East Sussex has not yet featured.

    I wonder if PBers from that area could shed light on this difference ?

    And to answer Torby-Fennel's question from the previous thread I neither buy nor touch the packs but use merely a brief visual examination in passing. Its entirely possible that if I physically searched through the stacks of packs I would find extra places of origin. But doing that would be a bit sad wouldn't it. :wink:
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,087
    edited June 2018

    I don’t know if anyone else has commented on this but Javid seems to be releasing headlines daily now, this one calculated to appeal to Leavers, as his moves on cannabis relaxation might be viewed as more liberal and progressive: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44553225

    I think when we come to look back at the way Brexit progressed in the spring of 2018, then Windrush - and the consequential removal of Amber Rudd - will be seen to be pivotal. She's gone from Remainer Big Beast to Who?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Today's Tesco Strawberry score is again a nine:

    Aberdeenshire
    Angus
    Perthshire
    Fife
    Staffordshire
    Norfolk
    Herefordshire
    Surrey
    Kent

    The main point of interest being that a record four Scottish areas of origin.

    There appears to be an increase in other British soft fruits with raspberries from Cambridgeshire, Herefordshire, Kent and West Sussex, Blueberries from Berkshire and West Sussex and blackberries from West Sussex.

    I find it curious that West Sussex has been a source of strawberries, raspberries, blueberries and blackberries but East Sussex has not yet featured.

    I wonder if PBers from that area could shed light on this difference ?

    And to answer Torby-Fennel's question from the previous thread I neither buy nor touch the packs but use merely a brief visual examination in passing. Its entirely possible that if I physically searched through the stacks of packs I would find extra places of origin. But doing that would be a bit sad wouldn't it. :wink:

    East Sussex is simply inferior.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    I remember reading something recently along the lines of that the UK ran its referendums according to an international convention that had a rule that if one or both sides of the support had intentionally exceeded the agreed funding, then the result of the referendum becomes void and should be re run. Perhaps someone on PB could confirm, after all, is that the reason Banks went ape when his donation of over £8 million was publicised.. .
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    Is it just me, or has Theresa May had a good couple of weeks?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,087
    How is this game still 0-0???
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,274

    rcs1000 said:

    PeterC said:

    RobD said:

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/tánaiste-warns-of-no-deal-brexit-as-negotiations-stall-1.3538765

    Mr Coveney added: “But let’s be very clear, there will be no withdrawal agreement, no transition agreement and no managed Brexit if the British government do not follow through on their clear commitments in writing to Ireland and the whole EU.”

    Couldn't be clearer. May is going to have to accept an open-ended commitment to NI remaining in SM/CU or it's over the cliff.
    Then over the cliff it is...
    The Irish go over the cliff as well. And guess who gets to build the dreaded border ...
    Romanian immigrants?
    No-one builds the dreaded border, but the idea that if no-one starts building the dreaded border on the day after a cliff-edge Brexit it means we've won the game of chicken is delusional.
    I expect the UK will go to unilateral free trade - at least temporarily. The EU will certainly not turn a blind eye, but they will have to impose border checks on all goods inbound to the customs union area. If they failed to do so they would have to open their entire eastern frontier with Russia etc to free trade.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,073
    Foxy said:

    Yes, pretty definite that the Irish have an effective veto on the final Deal.

    @ydoethur seems to think the EU negotiators stupid and drunk. If that is what they can get us to sign up to, then we should fear them being clever and sober!

    The Irish have always had a veto on the deal. It has to be approved by all member states.

    But since being forced to unilaterally impose border controls would be a truly epochal disaster for them, it was never likely they would exercise it if there was a prospect of something better.

    However, if the EU were serious about a deal, would they have sent:

    1) An alcoholic ex-dictator of Europe's smallest and worst run country

    2) An apologist for his grandfather's war crimes with no experience of negotiations, no integrity and a track record of failure as lawyer that forced him to emigrate and

    3) a notoriously Anglophobic former French Minister for Agriculture (that may be a tautology especially in light of their record on BSE) who was illegally appointed to the panel by said alcoholic ex-dictator and then cravenly endorsed by the EU27 when they should have had Juncker thrown in the coldest part of the Rhine as the first step of rehab instead?

    Of course not. They would have sent Merkel to open talks and somebody who could pass for sober and intelligent in a clear light to continue them.

    The simple fact is that at every stage the EU have given every impression of wanting no deal. If dishonest, given their public pronouncements, this is at least logical. First, by giving us no deal they discourage others from thinking they can have a better relationship with Europe based on trade alone, rather than all the pointless shit that emanates from appointing a drunken Fascist dictator to manage a proto-federalist project that only the top 1% actually want.
    (Continued)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,073
    (Continued)
    Second, let's not mince words. The UK is a massive loss to the EU. It's the one really significant military power, the financial hub of Europe - arguably, one of only two hubs on the planet - it is home to almost all of Europe's top universities, much of the medical and pharmaceutical industries and around 15% of the population. Losing the UK is a serious blow to the EU's dreams of becoming the world's most powerful entity and not only are they still reeling from shock, they think if they make leaving difficult we'll change our minds and come back in to their great benefit. In this as I have made clear many times they are approximately as wrong as Richard Dawkins on the religious views of Joseph Stalin (and that's pretty damn wrong) but again, we come back to the fact that they see the world through an alcoholic haze and low IQ.

    I think we are going to leave with no deal and that will be immensely damaging to both of us. I think not only is the EU extraordinarily blasé about creating a major hostile power on its north-western and southern periphery, but the fallout for them directly will be serious - it seems entirely possible it will down banking systems in Italy, Spain and Ireland for a start. Indeed, this foreseeable car crash is one of the key reasons I voted remain (it certainly wasn't out of starry eyed admiration for the EU, although I appreciate you would never guess that from my posts). But they don't seem to care. They're so wedded to the project they can't bear to compromise to save it. Their attitude reminds me very forcibly of the great Sir Boyle Roche: "It would surely be better, Mr. Speaker, to give up not only a part, but, if necessary, even the whole, of our constitution, to preserve the remainder!"
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,698
    AndyJS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Wow, Trump is on a massive upswing approval wise at the moment.

    He is up to about 45% approval this week but over 50% still disapprove of his presidency

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/203207/trump-job-approval-weekly.aspx
    45% is pretty much enough to win. I remember when the exit poll came out on election night 2016, one of its main findings was that 54% disapproved of Trump. A few hours later he was declared the winner.
    Depends where the votes are, wasn't he 3 million down?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,926
    Jacob Rees Mogg dismisses Chuka Umunna's argument the prospect of a Parliamentary motion on Brexit could still delay Brexit, saying Brexit is now in statutory law and statute is supreme

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/977442/Brexit-news-Rees-Mogg-bill-passed-UK-EU-withdrawal-latest-Umunna-motion-video
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited June 2018

    AndyJS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Wow, Trump is on a massive upswing approval wise at the moment.

    He is up to about 45% approval this week but over 50% still disapprove of his presidency

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/203207/trump-job-approval-weekly.aspx
    45% is pretty much enough to win. I remember when the exit poll came out on election night 2016, one of its main findings was that 54% disapproved of Trump. A few hours later he was declared the winner.
    Depends where the votes are, wasn't he 3 million down?
    Yes Clinton piled up votes in safe Democratic areas like California.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,024
    Jonathan said:

    Today's Tesco Strawberry score is again a nine:

    Aberdeenshire
    Angus
    Perthshire
    Fife
    Staffordshire
    Norfolk
    Herefordshire
    Surrey
    Kent

    The main point of interest being that a record four Scottish areas of origin.

    There appears to be an increase in other British soft fruits with raspberries from Cambridgeshire, Herefordshire, Kent and West Sussex, Blueberries from Berkshire and West Sussex and blackberries from West Sussex.

    I find it curious that West Sussex has been a source of strawberries, raspberries, blueberries and blackberries but East Sussex has not yet featured.

    I wonder if PBers from that area could shed light on this difference ?

    And to answer Torby-Fennel's question from the previous thread I neither buy nor touch the packs but use merely a brief visual examination in passing. Its entirely possible that if I physically searched through the stacks of packs I would find extra places of origin. But doing that would be a bit sad wouldn't it. :wink:

    East Sussex is simply inferior.
    Its the home of some renowed PBers - Richard Nabavi, Plato, HHemelig and the late Mark Senior.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,200

    I don’t know if anyone else has commented on this but Javid seems to be releasing headlines daily now, this one calculated to appeal to Leavers, as his moves on cannabis relaxation might be viewed as more liberal and progressive: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44553225

    I think when we come to look back at the way Brexit progressed in the spring of 2018, then Windrush - and the consequential removal of Amber Rudd - will be seen to be pivotal. She's gone from Remainer Big Beast to Who?
    It sort of shows she wasn’t all that great shakes.

    I would say I’m worried Javid might run out of energy, but given how quickly he got to the global board of Deutsche Bank and a £3million salary in his youth, I’m not so sure.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,889

    Foxy said:

    That is what May signed up to back in December though. We either stick to it or gain a reputation for not keeping our word.

    Better than that, the Patten amendment is in the Withdrawal Bill/Act, so the government is committed by law not to do anything which creates a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland with wording that is even more severe than in the joint report.

    Nothing in section 7, 8, 9 or 17 of this Act authorises regulations which—

    (a) diminish any form of North-South co-operation across the full range of political, economic, security, societal and agricultural contexts and frameworks of co-operation, including the continued operation of the North-South implementation bodies, or

    (b) create or facilitate border arrangements between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland after exit day which feature—
    (i) physical infrastructure, including border posts,
    (ii) a requirement for customs or regulatory compliance checks,
    (iii) a requirement for security checks,
    (iv) random checks on goods vehicles, or
    (v) any other checks and controls,
    that did not exist before exit day and are not subject to an agreement between Her Majesty’s Government and the Government of Ireland.
    Interesting but surely if Williamglenn has quoted the section correctly then:

    "Nothing in section 7, 8, 9 or 17 of this Act authorises..."

    is very different from

    "This act prohibits..."

    My understanding from previous commentators on here is that the GFA does not in any way prohibit a border. Since this amendment does not prohibit it either I do not see the obstacle to a border.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,468
    @ydoethur

    It is fairly basic to negotiation that one does not get to pick the opponents team, tactics and objectives.

    The EU27 have always focussed on rules and systems, while our side cannot even agree amongst themselves what the aim is.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited June 2018
    Barnesian said:

    Alistair said:

    Wow, Trump is on a massive upswing approval wise at the moment.

    Not masssive

    https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/

    And latest five polls suggest a downswing.
    Sure, but long term on the Gallup tracker he is up pretty much to his innaugeration score.

    Presidential approval score is highly volatile, it's all about the long term trends.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Somehow I managed to miss this story when the gang was originally prosecuted 2 years ago. Unbelievably out on derisory bail

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/21/pamplona-court-to-release-sexual-abuse-gang-on-bail
  • Clown_Car_HQClown_Car_HQ Posts: 169

    Today's Tesco Strawberry score is again a nine:

    Aberdeenshire
    Angus
    Perthshire
    Fife
    Staffordshire
    Norfolk
    Herefordshire
    Surrey
    Kent

    The main point of interest being that a record four Scottish areas of origin.

    There appears to be an increase in other British soft fruits with raspberries from Cambridgeshire, Herefordshire, Kent and West Sussex, Blueberries from Berkshire and West Sussex and blackberries from West Sussex.

    I find it curious that West Sussex has been a source of strawberries, raspberries, blueberries and blackberries but East Sussex has not yet featured.

    I wonder if PBers from that area could shed light on this difference ?

    And to answer Torby-Fennel's question from the previous thread I neither buy nor touch the packs but use merely a brief visual examination in passing. Its entirely possible that if I physically searched through the stacks of packs I would find extra places of origin. But doing that would be a bit sad wouldn't it. :wink:

    Today's Sainbury's score from a store in the People's Republic of Kent is one:

    Kent

    Not that we are protectionist here.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,926
    AndyJS said:

    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    Wow, Trump is on a massive upswing approval wise at the moment.

    He is up to about 45% approval this week but over 50% still disapprove of his presidency

    https://news.gallup.com/poll/203207/trump-job-approval-weekly.aspx
    45% is pretty much enough to win. I remember when the exit poll came out on election night 2016, one of its main findings was that 54% disapproved of Trump. A few hours later he was declared the winner.
    Actually technically it isn't though it would be very close.

    It is 1% less than the 46% he got in 2016 and if he lost 1% in Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania Hillary would have been elected President as she lost those states by less than 1% and with those states she would have won the Electoral College.

    Though of course it does confirm that the GOP Congress, which has an abysmal approval rating of just 19%, is significantly less popular than Trump, which is bad news for the GOP in November's midterms even if Trump still has a reasonable chance of re election in 2020.
    https://news.gallup.com/poll/235733/june-approve-congress.aspx?g_source=link_NEWSV9&g_medium=TOPIC&g_campaign=item_&g_content=Snapshot:%20In%20June,%20About%201%20in%205%20Approve%20of%20Congress
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,024
    To summarise some of the OBR borrowing predictions of the last year and a half:

    FY 2016/17
    Nov 2016 prediction £68.2bn
    Mar 2017 prediction £51.7bn
    Actual out-turn £45.7bn

    FY 2017/18
    Nov 2016 prediction £59.0bn
    Mar 2017 prediction £58.3bn
    Nov 2017 prediction £49.9bn
    Mar 2018 prediction £45.2bn
    Actual out-turn £39.5bn

    FY 2018/19
    Nov 2016 prediction £46.5bn
    Mar 2017 prediction £40.8bn
    Nov 2017 prediction £39.5bn
    Mar 2018 prediction £37.1bn
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,963

    Foxy said:

    That is what May signed up to back in December though. We either stick to it or gain a reputation for not keeping our word.

    Better than that, the Patten amendment is in the Withdrawal Bill/Act, so the government is committed by law not to do anything which creates a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland with wording that is even more severe than in the joint report.

    Nothing in section 7, 8, 9 or 17 of this Act authorises regulations which—

    (a) diminish any form of North-South co-operation across the full range of political, economic, security, societal and agricultural contexts and frameworks of co-operation, including the continued operation of the North-South implementation bodies, or

    (b) create or facilitate border arrangements between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland after exit day which feature—
    (i) physical infrastructure, including border posts,
    (ii) a requirement for customs or regulatory compliance checks,
    (iii) a requirement for security checks,
    (iv) random checks on goods vehicles, or
    (v) any other checks and controls,
    that did not exist before exit day and are not subject to an agreement between Her Majesty’s Government and the Government of Ireland.
    Interesting but surely if Williamglenn has quoted the section correctly then:

    "Nothing in section 7, 8, 9 or 17 of this Act authorises..."

    is very different from

    "This act prohibits..."

    My understanding from previous commentators on here is that the GFA does not in any way prohibit a border. Since this amendment does not prohibit it either I do not see the obstacle to a border.
    But if it's not authorised under the Act which provides the legal basis for leaving the EU, by what power could it be done?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited June 2018

    Jonathan said:

    Today's Tesco Strawberry score is again a nine:

    Aberdeenshire
    Angus
    Perthshire
    Fife
    Staffordshire
    Norfolk
    Herefordshire
    Surrey
    Kent

    The main point of interest being that a record four Scottish areas of origin.

    There appears to be an increase in other British soft fruits with raspberries from Cambridgeshire, Herefordshire, Kent and West Sussex, Blueberries from Berkshire and West Sussex and blackberries from West Sussex.

    I find it curious that West Sussex has been a source of strawberries, raspberries, blueberries and blackberries but East Sussex has not yet featured.

    I wonder if PBers from that area could shed light on this difference ?

    And to answer Torby-Fennel's question from the previous thread I neither buy nor touch the packs but use merely a brief visual examination in passing. Its entirely possible that if I physically searched through the stacks of packs I would find extra places of origin. But doing that would be a bit sad wouldn't it. :wink:

    East Sussex is simply inferior.
    Its the home of some renowed PBers - Richard Nabavi, Plato, HHemelig and the late Mark Senior.
    Like I say, inferior to the glorious West.

  • ydoethur said:

    (Continued)I think not only is the EU extraordinarily blasé about creating a major hostile power on its north-western and southern periphery, but the fallout for them directly will be serious - it seems entirely possible it will down banking systems in Italy, Spain and Ireland for a start."

    This is essentially "fog in the channel, continent cut off". That's a century-old sentiment that ignores developments on the continent since 1945, and is also essentially the central sentiment of Brexit. Its anachronism is why the result after next March will not be as the Brexiters imagine.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,024

    I don’t know if anyone else has commented on this but Javid seems to be releasing headlines daily now, this one calculated to appeal to Leavers, as his moves on cannabis relaxation might be viewed as more liberal and progressive: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44553225

    I think when we come to look back at the way Brexit progressed in the spring of 2018, then Windrush - and the consequential removal of Amber Rudd - will be seen to be pivotal. She's gone from Remainer Big Beast to Who?
    It sort of shows she wasn’t all that great shakes.

    I would say I’m worried Javid might run out of energy, but given how quickly he got to the global board of Deutsche Bank and a £3million salary in his youth, I’m not so sure.
    Javid has certainly been impressive so far.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    I think Croatia might win this match against Argentina, possibly with a goal right at the end of the match.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201

    I don’t know if anyone else has commented on this but Javid seems to be releasing headlines daily now, this one calculated to appeal to Leavers, as his moves on cannabis relaxation might be viewed as more liberal and progressive: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44553225

    I think when we come to look back at the way Brexit progressed in the spring of 2018, then Windrush - and the consequential removal of Amber Rudd - will be seen to be pivotal. She's gone from Remainer Big Beast to Who?
    It sort of shows she wasn’t all that great shakes.

    I would say I’m worried Javid might run out of energy, but given how quickly he got to the global board of Deutsche Bank and a £3million salary in his youth, I’m not so sure.
    I thought that to get to the Board of DB the only skill you needed was how to do bad deals and lose loadsa money.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Andrew Teale's review of today's by-elections:

    https://britainelects.com/2018/06/20/previews-21-jun-2018/
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,468
    I see that Juncker and Barnier were in Dublin today. The speech is linked to here in full. Doesn't sound to me as if the EU will be stitching up Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/DPhinnemore/status/1009787587022778369?s=19
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    This Melania story is extraordinary - to the point where I can't help wondering whether someone's either been set up or taken a satirical site seriously:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5871221/Melania-Trump-wears-jacket-REALLY-DONT-CARE-U-visit-immigrant-children.html
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,274
    Foxy said:

    I see that Juncker and Barnier were in Dublin today. The speech is linked to here in full. Doesn't sound to me as if the EU will be stitching up Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/DPhinnemore/status/1009787587022778369?s=19

    I am sure you are right that the EU26 do not intend to stich up ROI. But by pushing the UK into a NO DEAL corner they will achieve precisely that.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,926
    Foxy said:

    I see that Juncker and Barnier were in Dublin today. The speech is linked to here in full. Doesn't sound to me as if the EU will be stitching up Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/DPhinnemore/status/1009787587022778369?s=19

    The UK too has offered regulatory alignment and will not abandon Northern Ireland and the DUP either by imposing a hard border in the Irish Sea
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,926
    AndyJS said:

    Andrew Teale's review of today's by-elections:

    https://britainelects.com/2018/06/20/previews-21-jun-2018/

    Good luck to Yetunde Adeshile in Pitsea South East in Basildon who I campaigned for on Saturday and is hoping to take the seat from UKIP
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,926
    edited June 2018

    I don’t know if anyone else has commented on this but Javid seems to be releasing headlines daily now, this one calculated to appeal to Leavers, as his moves on cannabis relaxation might be viewed as more liberal and progressive: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44553225

    I think when we come to look back at the way Brexit progressed in the spring of 2018, then Windrush - and the consequential removal of Amber Rudd - will be seen to be pivotal. She's gone from Remainer Big Beast to Who?
    It sort of shows she wasn’t all that great shakes.

    I would say I’m worried Javid might run out of energy, but given how quickly he got to the global board of Deutsche Bank and a £3million salary in his youth, I’m not so sure.
    If Javid becomes PM he will be I think the richest PM (excluding inheritance or spouse) since Churchill
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,578
    ydoethur said:

    (Continued)
    Second, let's not mince words. The UK is a massive loss to the EU. It's the one really significant military power, the financial hub of Europe - arguably, one of only two hubs on the planet - it is home to almost all of Europe's top universities, much of the medical and pharmaceutical industries and around 15% of the population. Losing the UK is a serious blow to the EU's dreams of becoming the world's most powerful entity and not only are they still reeling from shock, they think if they make leaving difficult we'll change our minds and come back in to their great benefit. In this as I have made clear many times they are approximately as wrong as Richard Dawkins on the religious views of Joseph Stalin (and that's pretty damn wrong) but again, we come back to the fact that they see the world through an alcoholic haze and low IQ.

    I think we are going to leave with no deal and that will be immensely damaging to both of us. I think not only is the EU extraordinarily blasé about creating a major hostile power on its north-western and southern periphery, but the fallout for them directly will be serious - it seems entirely possible it will down banking systems in Italy, Spain and Ireland for a start. Indeed, this foreseeable car crash is one of the key reasons I voted remain (it certainly wasn't out of starry eyed admiration for the EU, although I appreciate you would never guess that from my posts). But they don't seem to care. They're so wedded to the project they can't bear to compromise to save it. Their attitude reminds me very forcibly of the great Sir Boyle Roche: "It would surely be better, Mr. Speaker, to give up not only a part, but, if necessary, even the whole, of our constitution, to preserve the remainder!"

    The EU's attitude to to Brexit was entirely predictable. it is not to the liking of the British and both sides will be left weaker. This is inevitable - when was there a divorce that left a family stronger?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,468

    This Melania story is extraordinary - to the point where I can't help wondering whether someone's either been set up or taken a satirical site seriously:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5871221/Melania-Trump-wears-jacket-REALLY-DONT-CARE-U-visit-immigrant-children.html

    In the modern world satire is impossible when this is a true story:

    https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1009855749470683137?s=19
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,087
    Argentina

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Andrew Teale's review of today's by-elections:

    https://britainelects.com/2018/06/20/previews-21-jun-2018/

    Good luck to Yetunde Adeshile in Pitsea South East in Basildon who I campaigned for on Saturday and is hoping to take the seat from UKIP
    Well UKIP probably won't win it, it's either Con or Lab. I'd make the Tories favourites.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,468
    EU 1, Argentina nil.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,564
    PeterC said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that Juncker and Barnier were in Dublin today. The speech is linked to here in full. Doesn't sound to me as if the EU will be stitching up Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/DPhinnemore/status/1009787587022778369?s=19

    I am sure you are right that the EU26 do not intend to stich up ROI. But by pushing the UK into a NO DEAL corner they will achieve precisely that.
    Seems a risk. Just because the EU are in a stronger position does not mean they don't need to understand the other side, and they seem astonished that another union might care about its own borders too. The negotiators are not stupid, so it is intentional.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Surely the fundamental question wrt Ireland is whether you believe that the stance on the "no N-S hard border" is genuinely the Irish concern, or whether there true concern is to try and avoid a hard border with the UK? Because from an economic point of view it is difficult to believe that their priority is not the latter.

    If so focussing on the NS border to avoid the latter is an extremely high risk tactic, especially when combined with the suggested EU proposal of creating a hard border across the Irish sea. It is difficult to believe that the latter was proposed for any other reason than the UK would find that unacceptable.

    The gamble is that the compromise will drive the UK away from installing a hard border with the EU as a whole, when it seems highly likely that the opposite will happen - ie. hard NS border and hard UK-EU border. And the Irish will regret not pushing harder for the EU to encourage compromise wrt Freedom of Movement to remove the UK objections to a soft border.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,561

    I don’t know if anyone else has commented on this but Javid seems to be releasing headlines daily now, this one calculated to appeal to Leavers, as his moves on cannabis relaxation might be viewed as more liberal and progressive: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44553225

    I think when we come to look back at the way Brexit progressed in the spring of 2018, then Windrush - and the consequential removal of Amber Rudd - will be seen to be pivotal. She's gone from Remainer Big Beast to Who?
    It sort of shows she wasn’t all that great shakes.

    I would say I’m worried Javid might run out of energy, but given how quickly he got to the global board of Deutsche Bank and a £3million salary in his youth, I’m not so sure.
    Javid has certainly been impressive so far.
    He's certainly been a heck of a lot better than his two immediate predecessors.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,564
    Jonathan said:

    Is it just me, or has Theresa May had a good couple of weeks?

    She won all the votes on the Brexit Bill so I suppose that is good, although there's still a bunch of can kicking it seems, and merely surviving through the period is not a high bar to vault. I suppose the question is now she managed that achievement, can she build on it in any way?

    As for any other matters, I cannot think of anything definitely good. Some announcements which might do ok or might not.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,087
    PeterC said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that Juncker and Barnier were in Dublin today. The speech is linked to here in full. Doesn't sound to me as if the EU will be stitching up Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/DPhinnemore/status/1009787587022778369?s=19

    I am sure you are right that the EU26 do not intend to stich up ROI. But by pushing the UK into a NO DEAL corner they will achieve precisely that.
    And talk themselves out of £40 billion....... They must REALLY love Ireland.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    Foxy said:

    I see that Juncker and Barnier were in Dublin today. The speech is linked to here in full. Doesn't sound to me as if the EU will be stitching up Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/DPhinnemore/status/1009787587022778369?s=19

    No deal stitches Ireland up like a kipper.

    They are using Ireland as a stick to beat the UK with. Or better maybe, they’re in the front seat in a head on game of chicken, only they’re the ones not wearing the seat belt.

    When it’s all over Ireland will be less than 2% of the EU. I suspect they’ll be told to alter their corporate taxes. For starters.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,926
    edited June 2018
    AndyJS said:

    HYUFD said:

    AndyJS said:

    Andrew Teale's review of today's by-elections:

    https://britainelects.com/2018/06/20/previews-21-jun-2018/

    Good luck to Yetunde Adeshile in Pitsea South East in Basildon who I campaigned for on Saturday and is hoping to take the seat from UKIP
    Well UKIP probably won't win it, it's either Con or Lab. I'd make the Tories favourites.
    Yetunde should win the seat for the Tories yes but Labour did win it in 2012 and 2002, though the Tories will be helped that Labour are having to defend Lee Chapel North which is the other by election tonight in Basildon
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,561
    HYUFD said:

    I don’t know if anyone else has commented on this but Javid seems to be releasing headlines daily now, this one calculated to appeal to Leavers, as his moves on cannabis relaxation might be viewed as more liberal and progressive: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44553225

    I think when we come to look back at the way Brexit progressed in the spring of 2018, then Windrush - and the consequential removal of Amber Rudd - will be seen to be pivotal. She's gone from Remainer Big Beast to Who?
    It sort of shows she wasn’t all that great shakes.

    I would say I’m worried Javid might run out of energy, but given how quickly he got to the global board of Deutsche Bank and a £3million salary in his youth, I’m not so sure.
    If Javid becomes PM he will be I think the richest PM (excluding inheritance or spouse) since Churchill
    But, but, but - he's the humble son of a bus driver.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,468
    welshowl said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that Juncker and Barnier were in Dublin today. The speech is linked to here in full. Doesn't sound to me as if the EU will be stitching up Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/DPhinnemore/status/1009787587022778369?s=19

    No deal stitches Ireland up like a kipper.

    They are using Ireland as a stick to beat the UK with. Or better maybe, they’re in the front seat in a head on game of chicken, only they’re the ones not wearing the seat belt.

    When it’s all over Ireland will be less than 2% of the EU. I suspect they’ll be told to alter their corporate taxes. For starters.
    Tax policy is part of the speech that Juncker made, in my link.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    So this chap Javid. Stuck his head up Osbo's servant chimney to get into Govt. Then as Business Sec his biggest challenge was Tata making a decision on Port Talbot. Where was Javid, on holiday, FFS on holiday, even the useless Kinnock was outside Tata HQ. No clue at DLCG. Going to be panned in the Grenfell enquiry if the journalist is right.

    But he has had a patsy 10 min interview with Marr "So Sajid, tell me your fathers backstory?" "Yes we really did live in a septic chip bag". Then said to the SPADS give me some populist headlines. Simple kick a woman when she is down and needing support. Right Ho I will get the bovver boots on.

    Mr Javid is only being discussed because with the exception of two others the whole cabinet are boring non-entities whose idea of a wild weekend is a convention of Management Cost Accountants.
    This is the real Tory problem, boring useless non politicians at the top of the party. It is an idea free zone apart from we are going to raise taxes.
    They deserve to lose.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,087

    HYUFD said:

    I don’t know if anyone else has commented on this but Javid seems to be releasing headlines daily now, this one calculated to appeal to Leavers, as his moves on cannabis relaxation might be viewed as more liberal and progressive: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44553225

    I think when we come to look back at the way Brexit progressed in the spring of 2018, then Windrush - and the consequential removal of Amber Rudd - will be seen to be pivotal. She's gone from Remainer Big Beast to Who?
    It sort of shows she wasn’t all that great shakes.

    I would say I’m worried Javid might run out of energy, but given how quickly he got to the global board of Deutsche Bank and a £3million salary in his youth, I’m not so sure.
    If Javid becomes PM he will be I think the richest PM (excluding inheritance or spouse) since Churchill
    But, but, but - he's the humble son of a bus driver.
    The British Dream personified.

    (Actually, that would require him to score the winner in the World Cup final.....)
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,963
    welshowl said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that Juncker and Barnier were in Dublin today. The speech is linked to here in full. Doesn't sound to me as if the EU will be stitching up Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/DPhinnemore/status/1009787587022778369?s=19

    No deal stitches Ireland up like a kipper.

    They are using Ireland as a stick to beat the UK with. Or better maybe, they’re in the front seat in a head on game of chicken, only they’re the ones not wearing the seat belt.

    When it’s all over Ireland will be less than 2% of the EU. I suspect they’ll be told to alter their corporate taxes. For starters.
    This is the definitive article to read on why it is not in Ireland’s interests to back down.

    http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2017/09/24/is-no-deal-better-than-a-bad-deal-irish-edition/
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,564

    I don’t know if anyone else has commented on this but Javid seems to be releasing headlines daily now, this one calculated to appeal to Leavers, as his moves on cannabis relaxation might be viewed as more liberal and progressive: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44553225

    It feels like he is a bit too obviously making a play for Leader, but is acting with the haste of a man who knows he needs to be ready as a contest could happen at any time. It might not, but having been gifted a higher profile position he is not going to waste the opportunity to reinvent his image.

    HYUFD said:

    I don’t know if anyone else has commented on this but Javid seems to be releasing headlines daily now, this one calculated to appeal to Leavers, as his moves on cannabis relaxation might be viewed as more liberal and progressive: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44553225

    I think when we come to look back at the way Brexit progressed in the spring of 2018, then Windrush - and the consequential removal of Amber Rudd - will be seen to be pivotal. She's gone from Remainer Big Beast to Who?
    It sort of shows she wasn’t all that great shakes.

    I would say I’m worried Javid might run out of energy, but given how quickly he got to the global board of Deutsche Bank and a £3million salary in his youth, I’m not so sure.
    If Javid becomes PM he will be I think the richest PM (excluding inheritance or spouse) since Churchill
    But, but, but - he's the humble son of a bus driver.
    I'd have thought that would make his story better - I came from humble origins, became super rich quite young, and then decided to give back to the country by serving it even though I could have been even richer.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,564
    edited June 2018
    alex. said:

    Surely the fundamental question wrt Ireland is whether you believe that the stance on the "no N-S hard border" is genuinely the Irish concern, or whether there true concern is to try and avoid a hard border with the UK? Because from an economic point of view it is difficult to believe that their priority is not the latter.

    If so focussing on the NS border to avoid the latter is an extremely high risk tactic, especially when combined with the suggested EU proposal of creating a hard border across the Irish sea. It is difficult to believe that the latter was proposed for any other reason than the UK would find that unacceptable.

    The gamble is that the compromise will drive the UK away from installing a hard border with the EU as a whole, when it seems highly likely that the opposite will happen - ie. hard NS border and hard UK-EU border. And the Irish will regret not pushing harder for the EU to encourage compromise wrt Freedom of Movement to remove the UK objections to a soft border.

    I find it extremely plausible that, being in a strong position, the EU including Ireland are willing to gamble on getting everything they want, even at the risk that political realities will not permit that to happen on our end. The 'they'll not do x because terrible thing y will happen and they'll see sense' tactic often works, but clearly doesn't all the time or we'd never have voted to Leave in the first place.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,549
    PeterC said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that Juncker and Barnier were in Dublin today. The speech is linked to here in full. Doesn't sound to me as if the EU will be stitching up Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/DPhinnemore/status/1009787587022778369?s=19

    I am sure you are right that the EU26 do not intend to stich up ROI. But by pushing the UK into a NO DEAL corner they will achieve precisely that.
    Dublin gets to worry about lorry queues at Holyhead AND Dover. Just as well they don’t sell lots of food to the UK and EU....
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    Foxy said:

    welshowl said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that Juncker and Barnier were in Dublin today. The speech is linked to here in full. Doesn't sound to me as if the EU will be stitching up Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/DPhinnemore/status/1009787587022778369?s=19

    No deal stitches Ireland up like a kipper.

    They are using Ireland as a stick to beat the UK with. Or better maybe, they’re in the front seat in a head on game of chicken, only they’re the ones not wearing the seat belt.

    When it’s all over Ireland will be less than 2% of the EU. I suspect they’ll be told to alter their corporate taxes. For starters.
    Tax policy is part of the speech that Juncker made, in my link.
    Indeed. Seemed a shot across his host’s bows.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    To summarise some of the OBR borrowing predictions of the last year and a half:

    FY 2016/17
    Nov 2016 prediction £68.2bn
    Mar 2017 prediction £51.7bn
    Actual out-turn £45.7bn

    FY 2017/18
    Nov 2016 prediction £59.0bn
    Mar 2017 prediction £58.3bn
    Nov 2017 prediction £49.9bn
    Mar 2018 prediction £45.2bn
    Actual out-turn £39.5bn

    FY 2018/19
    Nov 2016 prediction £46.5bn
    Mar 2017 prediction £40.8bn
    Nov 2017 prediction £39.5bn
    Mar 2018 prediction £37.1bn

    Do you have comparable figures for pre 2016-17?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Argentina's defence is making England's look world class.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,564

    welshowl said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that Juncker and Barnier were in Dublin today. The speech is linked to here in full. Doesn't sound to me as if the EU will be stitching up Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/DPhinnemore/status/1009787587022778369?s=19

    No deal stitches Ireland up like a kipper.

    They are using Ireland as a stick to beat the UK with. Or better maybe, they’re in the front seat in a head on game of chicken, only they’re the ones not wearing the seat belt.

    When it’s all over Ireland will be less than 2% of the EU. I suspect they’ll be told to alter their corporate taxes. For starters.
    This is the definitive article to read on why it is not in Ireland’s interests to back down.

    http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2017/09/24/is-no-deal-better-than-a-bad-deal-irish-edition/
    Unfortunately, if the UK follows through on its threat to leave the EU’s Single Market, and refuses to become a member of a new EU27-UK customs union replicating the current EU28 customs union, then any deal that the EU will strike with the UK will necessarily be a bad one, thus defined

    Why are we even negotiating at all then? Sounds like there is no incentive for the Irish, and therefore the EU, to have a deal at all. If that is true, why aren't the EU saving time and just calling off negotiations? The article doesn't seem to think we will accept the terms that are necessary for a deal, only that we will eventually, which may take some time. So just end any prospect of a deal now and wait for us to come crawling back in 2 years, or 5 or 10 or whatever.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,926
    edited June 2018

    So this chap Javid. Stuck his head up Osbo's servant chimney to get into Govt. Then as Business Sec his biggest challenge was Tata making a decision on Port Talbot. Where was Javid, on holiday, FFS on holiday, even the useless Kinnock was outside Tata HQ. No clue at DLCG. Going to be panned in the Grenfell enquiry if the journalist is right.

    But he has had a patsy 10 min interview with Marr "So Sajid, tell me your fathers backstory?" "Yes we really did live in a septic chip bag". Then said to the SPADS give me some populist headlines. Simple kick a woman when she is down and needing support. Right Ho I will get the bovver boots on.

    Mr Javid is only being discussed because with the exception of two others the whole cabinet are boring non-entities whose idea of a wild weekend is a convention of Management Cost Accountants.
    This is the real Tory problem, boring useless non politicians at the top of the party. It is an idea free zone apart from we are going to raise taxes.
    They deserve to lose.

    If you want charisma and passion and lower taxes then love him or loathe him Boris is the only contender in the Cabinet (though whichever party gets in we are going to have to pay more for the NHS and social care) and on the backbenches there is the Moggster of course
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,468

    PeterC said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that Juncker and Barnier were in Dublin today. The speech is linked to here in full. Doesn't sound to me as if the EU will be stitching up Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/DPhinnemore/status/1009787587022778369?s=19

    I am sure you are right that the EU26 do not intend to stich up ROI. But by pushing the UK into a NO DEAL corner they will achieve precisely that.
    Dublin gets to worry about lorry queues at Holyhead AND Dover. Just as well they don’t sell lots of food to the UK and EU....
    No problem with the new ferry, indeed a refreshing meal and night in bed instead.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/brexit-busting-ferry-launched-from-dublin-port-1.3468760
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    HYUFD said:

    I don’t know if anyone else has commented on this but Javid seems to be releasing headlines daily now, this one calculated to appeal to Leavers, as his moves on cannabis relaxation might be viewed as more liberal and progressive: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44553225

    I think when we come to look back at the way Brexit progressed in the spring of 2018, then Windrush - and the consequential removal of Amber Rudd - will be seen to be pivotal. She's gone from Remainer Big Beast to Who?
    It sort of shows she wasn’t all that great shakes.

    I would say I’m worried Javid might run out of energy, but given how quickly he got to the global board of Deutsche Bank and a £3million salary in his youth, I’m not so sure.
    If Javid becomes PM he will be I think the richest PM (excluding inheritance or spouse) since Churchill
    But, but, but - he's the humble son of a bus driver.
    One can be both the humble son of a bus driver and incredibly successful individually. I don't see anything wrong, quite the opposite success is a good thing.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,468
    HYUFD said:

    So this chap Javid. Stuck his head up Osbo's servant chimney to get into Govt. Then as Business Sec his biggest challenge was Tata making a decision on Port Talbot. Where was Javid, on holiday, FFS on holiday, even the useless Kinnock was outside Tata HQ. No clue at DLCG. Going to be panned in the Grenfell enquiry if the journalist is right.

    But he has had a patsy 10 min interview with Marr "So Sajid, tell me your fathers backstory?" "Yes we really did live in a septic chip bag". Then said to the SPADS give me some populist headlines. Simple kick a woman when she is down and needing support. Right Ho I will get the bovver boots on.

    Mr Javid is only being discussed because with the exception of two others the whole cabinet are boring non-entities whose idea of a wild weekend is a convention of Management Cost Accountants.
    This is the real Tory problem, boring useless non politicians at the top of the party. It is an idea free zone apart from we are going to raise taxes.
    They deserve to lose.

    If you want charisma and passion and lower taxes then love him or loathe him Boris is the only contender in the Cabinet (though whichever party gets in we are going to have to pay more for the NHS and social care) and on the backbenches there is the Moggster of course
    BoJo was the future once. Not any more.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    welshowl said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that Juncker and Barnier were in Dublin today. The speech is linked to here in full. Doesn't sound to me as if the EU will be stitching up Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/DPhinnemore/status/1009787587022778369?s=19

    No deal stitches Ireland up like a kipper.

    They are using Ireland as a stick to beat the UK with. Or better maybe, they’re in the front seat in a head on game of chicken, only they’re the ones not wearing the seat belt.

    When it’s all over Ireland will be less than 2% of the EU. I suspect they’ll be told to alter their corporate taxes. For starters.
    This is the definitive article to read on why it is not in Ireland’s interests to back down.

    http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2017/09/24/is-no-deal-better-than-a-bad-deal-irish-edition/
    The author of the article doesn't even sound totally convinced by his argument, and even says that from an economic only perspective (at least in the short term) "no deal" is worse. Could easily be read as a devil's advocate argument.
  • Torby_FennelTorby_Fennel Posts: 438



    And to answer Torby-Fennel's question from the previous thread I neither buy nor touch the packs but use merely a brief visual examination in passing. Its entirely possible that if I physically searched through the stacks of packs I would find extra places of origin. But doing that would be a bit sad wouldn't it. :wink:

    Fair enough... well everyone should have a hobby. ;)

    Tonight I'm eating Strawberries grown in Lincolnshire... don't add the county to your list though as these are just some that my dad gave me yesterday from his own garden. :D

  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    The Iceland-Croatia draw price will crash if Croatia hold on here. (Much like the France-Denmark draw did earlier today).
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    This Melania story is extraordinary - to the point where I can't help wondering whether someone's either been set up or taken a satirical site seriously:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5871221/Melania-Trump-wears-jacket-REALLY-DONT-CARE-U-visit-immigrant-children.html

    True fact: Melania has failed to produce evidence that she immigrated to the country legally despite saying she would when challenged by the press.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,926
    edited June 2018
    2 0 to Croatia.

    Dreadful World Cup so far for Germany and Argentina, the heart bleeds!
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,468
    Argies not looking happy :(
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    The Iceland-Croatia draw price will crash if Croatia hold on here. (Much like the France-Denmark draw did earlier today).

    Iceland have yet to play Nigeria so a bit different.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,468

    The Iceland-Croatia draw price will crash if Croatia hold on here. (Much like the France-Denmark draw did earlier today).

    If Iceland win tommorow, they may be fine on 4 points and goal difference.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,881
    Croatia looking like a serious side.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    The Iceland-Croatia draw price will crash if Croatia hold on here. (Much like the France-Denmark draw did earlier today).

    Really? Depends on Iceland beating Nigeria, doesn't it?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,468
    Alistair said:

    This Melania story is extraordinary - to the point where I can't help wondering whether someone's either been set up or taken a satirical site seriously:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5871221/Melania-Trump-wears-jacket-REALLY-DONT-CARE-U-visit-immigrant-children.html

    True fact: Melania has failed to produce evidence that she immigrated to the country legally despite saying she would when challenged by the press.
    It seems her revenge for Stormy is being served cold.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Foxy said:

    The Iceland-Croatia draw price will crash if Croatia hold on here. (Much like the France-Denmark draw did earlier today).

    If Iceland win tommorow, they may be fine on 4 points and goal difference.
    Nigeria look woeful and Argentina will know how many they need to give themselves a chance. A mutually beneficial draw looks likely (even more so than the France-Denmark game).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,564
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    So this chap Javid. Stuck his head up Osbo's servant chimney to get into Govt. Then as Business Sec his biggest challenge was Tata making a decision on Port Talbot. Where was Javid, on holiday, FFS on holiday, even the useless Kinnock was outside Tata HQ. No clue at DLCG. Going to be panned in the Grenfell enquiry if the journalist is right.

    But he has had a patsy 10 min interview with Marr "So Sajid, tell me your fathers backstory?" "Yes we really did live in a septic chip bag". Then said to the SPADS give me some populist headlines. Simple kick a woman when she is down and needing support. Right Ho I will get the bovver boots on.

    Mr Javid is only being discussed because with the exception of two others the whole cabinet are boring non-entities whose idea of a wild weekend is a convention of Management Cost Accountants.
    This is the real Tory problem, boring useless non politicians at the top of the party. It is an idea free zone apart from we are going to raise taxes.
    They deserve to lose.

    If you want charisma and passion and lower taxes then love him or loathe him Boris is the only contender in the Cabinet (though whichever party gets in we are going to have to pay more for the NHS and social care) and on the backbenches there is the Moggster of course
    BoJo was the future once. Not any more.
    He waited too long and has missed his chance. Granted, I'm hardly in a position to guess what makes the Tory membership get all excited, but it just feels like his star started waning awhile ago and he has plenty more baggage.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,549
    Foxy said:

    PeterC said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that Juncker and Barnier were in Dublin today. The speech is linked to here in full. Doesn't sound to me as if the EU will be stitching up Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/DPhinnemore/status/1009787587022778369?s=19

    I am sure you are right that the EU26 do not intend to stich up ROI. But by pushing the UK into a NO DEAL corner they will achieve precisely that.
    Dublin gets to worry about lorry queues at Holyhead AND Dover. Just as well they don’t sell lots of food to the UK and EU....
    No problem with the new ferry, indeed a refreshing meal and night in bed instead.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/brexit-busting-ferry-launched-from-dublin-port-1.3468760
    They’ll need a lot more than one and it doubles the transit time which for food is non-trivial....but I’m sure we’ll all welcome Irish lorries off our roads....
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,468

    Foxy said:

    The Iceland-Croatia draw price will crash if Croatia hold on here. (Much like the France-Denmark draw did earlier today).

    If Iceland win tommorow, they may be fine on 4 points and goal difference.
    Nigeria look woeful and Argentina will know how many they need to give themselves a chance. A mutually beneficial draw looks likely (even more so than the France-Denmark game).
    Nigeria do have a great Midfielder in Ndidi, with two decent strikers in 'Nacho and Musa. It is the defence that lets them down.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Wow....Argentina lucky not to be 3-0 down.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    alex. said:

    The Iceland-Croatia draw price will crash if Croatia hold on here. (Much like the France-Denmark draw did earlier today).

    Really? Depends on Iceland beating Nigeria, doesn't it?
    Yes. You could of course back that double as well.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,926
    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    So this chap Javid. Stuck his head up Osbo's servant chimney to get into Govt. Then as Business Sec his biggest challenge was Tata making a decision on Port Talbot. Where was Javid, on holiday, FFS on holiday, even the useless Kinnock was outside Tata HQ. No clue at DLCG. Going to be panned in the Grenfell enquiry if the journalist is right.

    But he has had a patsy 10 min interview with Marr "So Sajid, tell me your fathers backstory?" "Yes we really did live in a septic chip bag". Then said to the SPADS give me some populist headlines. Simple kick a woman when she is down and needing support. Right Ho I will get the bovver boots on.

    Mr Javid is only being discussed because with the exception of two others the whole cabinet are boring non-entities whose idea of a wild weekend is a convention of Management Cost Accountants.
    This is the real Tory problem, boring useless non politicians at the top of the party. It is an idea free zone apart from we are going to raise taxes.
    They deserve to lose.

    If you want charisma and passion and lower taxes then love him or loathe him Boris is the only contender in the Cabinet (though whichever party gets in we are going to have to pay more for the NHS and social care) and on the backbenches there is the Moggster of course
    BoJo was the future once. Not any more.
    He waited too long and has missed his chance. Granted, I'm hardly in a position to guess what makes the Tory membership get all excited, but it just feels like his star started waning awhile ago and he has plenty more baggage.
    After May has completed the turgid Brexit process Tory members will be looking for someone to sell the party and Brexit Britain and Boris will still be very much up there, though I agree he could end up as Heseltine to Javid's Major
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    PeterC said:

    Foxy said:

    I see that Juncker and Barnier were in Dublin today. The speech is linked to here in full. Doesn't sound to me as if the EU will be stitching up Ireland.

    https://twitter.com/DPhinnemore/status/1009787587022778369?s=19

    I am sure you are right that the EU26 do not intend to stich up ROI. But by pushing the UK into a NO DEAL corner they will achieve precisely that.
    Dublin gets to worry about lorry queues at Holyhead AND Dover. Just as well they don’t sell lots of food to the UK and EU....
    I don't want to conflate several current issues, however, Boris Johnson said he would go down into a ditch to stop a third runway at Heathrow. How can a man of principle not resign over this matter if the vote in parliament is successful next Monday? Maybe it is due to his genetic make-up in that he displays characteristics of a nefarious back stabbing weasel? He cannot help himself, he gets himself in so many difficult and frankly badly judged political messes that really his political number should be up.

    Heathrow of course is not the only vexing issue on which he looks like he will be performing cartwheels and humiliating u-turns. The question of Europe beckons as if Johnson can let the Third runway happen, then, he can U-Turn on the UK leaving the EU. After all, it is not like he backed Brexit for the stated purpose of leaving the EU, rather he fancied destabilizing Cameron and replacing him as PM. . Maybe Johnson has two articles penned for next Tuesdays Newspapers in which he now backs expanding Heathrow and an alternative one in which he castigates it?

    Johnson is a low quality politician and it never ceases to amaze me how many people seem to be taken in by his supposed charm.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Brazil must be intensively relaxed at the moment. None of the big teams look very good, especially in defence.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    What a brilliant goal that was. 3-0 to Croatia.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,218

    Wow....Argentina lucky not to be 3-0 down.

    They are now
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    The problem for Iceland is they have a night to sleep on this. The problem for Argentina is that I can't see them beating Nigeria!
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Iceland are very slight favourites vs Nigeria with Betfair Exchange.

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/football/market/1.137597547
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,468

    Brazil must be intensively relaxed at the moment. None of the big teams look very good, especially in defence.

    Brazil didn't look great either.

    Spain or Portugal, look most likely. Uruguay my dark horse for the final.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    I reckon those charges against Modric might get dropped.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,889

    Foxy said:

    That is what May signed up to back in December though. We either stick to it or gain a reputation for not keeping our word.

    Better than that, the Patten amendment is in the Withdrawal Bill/Act, so the government is committed by law not to do anything which creates a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland with wording that is even more severe than in the joint report.

    Nothing in section 7, 8, 9 or 17 of this Act authorises regulations which—

    (a) diminish any form of North-South co-operation across the full range of political, economic, security, societal and agricultural contexts and frameworks of co-operation, including the continued operation of the North-South implementation bodies, or

    (b) create or facilitate border arrangements between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland after exit day which feature—
    (i) physical infrastructure, including border posts,
    (ii) a requirement for customs or regulatory compliance checks,
    (iii) a requirement for security checks,
    (iv) random checks on goods vehicles, or
    (v) any other checks and controls,
    that did not exist before exit day and are not subject to an agreement between Her Majesty’s Government and the Government of Ireland.
    Interesting but surely if Williamglenn has quoted the section correctly then:

    "Nothing in section 7, 8, 9 or 17 of this Act authorises..."

    is very different from

    "This act prohibits..."

    My understanding from previous commentators on here is that the GFA does not in any way prohibit a border. Since this amendment does not prohibit it either I do not see the obstacle to a border.
    But if it's not authorised under the Act which provides the legal basis for leaving the EU, by what power could it be done?
    It doesn't need a power. It is not prohibited so can be done if the Government deem it necessary. But they don't need to do anything. It will be the EU's problem not ours.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,926

    Brazil must be intensively relaxed at the moment. None of the big teams look very good, especially in defence.

    Though given they only drew with Switzerland, neither do Brazil
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    Croatia still 18-1 in the outright. Longer than England! :o
This discussion has been closed.