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  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,987

    PClipp said:

    Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......

    yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.

    Perhaps they were not inspired by the Conservative leadership of the Remain campaign. I certainly wasn`t.
    Enjoy your day in the sun in London....
    Just leaving home with six neighbours for the #peoplesvotemarch. I suspect it will be big.

  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2018
    Vote Labour, get a run on the pound...

    Momentum chief Jon Lansman's 'run on pound' fear

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44582711

    You know they will blame everything that goes wrong on the resistance of the global elite.
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    In my career I have been offered jobs (unsolicited) in

    - Turkey
    - South Africa
    - Kuwait
    - Saudi Arabia
    - Jamaica
    - South Korea

    But never in an EU country.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,583

    You really think most Britons have not travelled outside Europe? I don't have the figures but I'd be surprised if most haven't been further at least once.

    Europe and north African islands that could effectively be part of Europe - yes I wouldn't be surprised if that's the case.
    Google to the rescue again:


    "Aside from Europe, North America is the most popular holiday spot for Britons, with 44% of British adults saying they have been. Africa (30%) is the second most popular destination, and 27% of Britons have also been to Asia. 14% have been to Australia and 12% have been to South America."

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/

    So, unless the Britons going to Africa, Aisa, Australia and S. America are sub-sets of the 44% who have been to N America, it seems that well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).

    (It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split :wink:)
    I would imagine that there would be a large correlation between the groups and that well-travelled people will indeed largely be a sub-set of the 44%.

    Personally I've been to all of the above apart from South America.

    As for the Leave/Remain split I'm not sure if it would be that dramatic. Older people have had more opportunities to travel and to learn the foibles of the EU and see the bigger world outside it. Younger naive Remainers may not have had as many opportunities to leave Europe yet. ;)
    71% of Britons have travelled outside Europe.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/a-quarter-of-britons-have-never-been-on-a-plane-visited-a-beach-or-european-capital/
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    No. You were wrong.

    "Twenty-two percent of Britons have never travelled on a plane and one in four have never visited a capital city in Europe,while nearly a third (29 per cent) have never travelled outside of Europe, and a fifth have never been to a beach, according to new research.

    So 71% of Britons have travelled outside Europe.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/a-quarter-of-britons-have-never-been-on-a-plane-visited-a-beach-or-european-capital/

    Though to be fair the original claim included not just Europe but north African islands like Tenerife. Its also worth noting that the distance between London and Tenerife (or even Edinburgh and Tenerife) is well under half of that between Seattle and Orlando.
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    With a few minor alterations this will do nicely for Boris Johnson's resignation letter:

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1010267211708141573

    https://twitter.com/mikeedudley/status/737700442050809856

    The free sample that came through the letter box - what was it a free sample of ?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Barnesian said:

    PClipp said:

    Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......

    yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.

    Perhaps they were not inspired by the Conservative leadership of the Remain campaign. I certainly wasn`t.
    Enjoy your day in the sun in London....
    Just leaving home with six neighbours for the #peoplesvotemarch. I suspect it will be big.

    Depends what you define as big,

    Tens of thousands of people are expected to descend on Westminster for an anti-Brexit demonstration on Saturday

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/22/peoples-vote-march-against-brexit-london-thousands-expected

    Is that big?
  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,987

    Barnesian said:

    PClipp said:

    Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......

    yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.

    Perhaps they were not inspired by the Conservative leadership of the Remain campaign. I certainly wasn`t.
    Enjoy your day in the sun in London....
    Just leaving home with six neighbours for the #peoplesvotemarch. I suspect it will be big.

    Depends what you define as big,

    Tens of thousands of people are expected to descend on Westminster for an anti-Brexit demonstration on Saturday

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/22/peoples-vote-march-against-brexit-london-thousands-expected

    Is that big?
    Not big enough. It needs to be 100,000+.

    I'm not into expectation management.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,855
    edited June 2018

    Barnesian said:

    PClipp said:

    Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......

    yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.

    Perhaps they were not inspired by the Conservative leadership of the Remain campaign. I certainly wasn`t.
    Enjoy your day in the sun in London....
    Just leaving home with six neighbours for the #peoplesvotemarch. I suspect it will be big.

    Depends what you define as big,

    Tens of thousands of people are expected to descend on Westminster for an anti-Brexit demonstration on Saturday

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/22/peoples-vote-march-against-brexit-london-thousands-expected

    Is that big?
    Don’t they realise that the Brexit legislation passed last week? Maybe they should have swapped dates with JezFest...
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    Sandpit said:

    With a few minor alterations this will do nicely for Boris Johnson's resignation letter:

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1010267211708141573

    Avoiding the runway vote on monday is an act of shear folly for his career. If he cannot vote against and accept the consequences he cannot be PM of the UK

    Mind you I fully support runway 3 and also no 4
    Yes, well done to the government for whipping the vote, even if it was at the cost of a minor resignation and Boris needing to find a way to be somewhere else.

    My only annoyance is that they’re not legislating for runway 4 at the same time, they should really be planning to start building that on the day R3 opens.
    May well see the SNP vote with the government for once
    SNP not voting for Prestwick then?
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    I think one of the mistakes the pro remain media did was not to give more air time to the Corbyn campaign to remain in. I believe that would have done far more to convince Labour voters than the Alan Johnson official Labour remain campaign. I think there was more interest in continuing the Labour civil war which intensified just after the vote than winning the vote itself.

    In the end the media were far more interested in the Tory fight anyway. For all the blame to go around I think the pro remain media has to look at itself as well as pointing the finger at others.

    You obviously didn't watch the Vice special on Jezza....he declined / made himself unavailable numerous times.
    I'm not talking about interviews with him, much in the same way as the election he's at his best campaigning to people rather than doing interviews. If journalists were shooting and covering that and Corbyn's remain message but getting stopped by Corbyn then fair enough, I suspect they had their own agenda/thoughts that guided how they covered things and it didn't produce the result they wanted.

    The problem, IMO, is with the group of people that voted in the referendum, the way things in the country were/are and how people felt about that combined with the Leave arguments and its media backing means that Leave wins unless the remain campaign is really good. With the benefit of hindsight...

    One way I can see of changing that is really driving up turnout among remain voters. Corbyn has an appeal to a section of people whereas I can't imagine Alan Johnson would have converted or brought out many voters for remain that weren't already secured for remain.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2018

    I think one of the mistakes the pro remain media did was not to give more air time to the Corbyn campaign to remain in. I believe that would have done far more to convince Labour voters than the Alan Johnson official Labour remain campaign. I think there was more interest in continuing the Labour civil war which intensified just after the vote than winning the vote itself.

    In the end the media were far more interested in the Tory fight anyway. For all the blame to go around I think the pro remain media has to look at itself as well as pointing the finger at others.

    You obviously didn't watch the Vice special on Jezza....he declined / made himself unavailable numerous times.
    I'm not talking about interviews with him, much in the same way as the election he's at his best campaigning to people rather than doing interviews. If journalists were shooting and covering that and Corbyn's remain message but getting stopped by Corbyn then fair enough, I suspect they had their own agenda/thoughts that guided how they covered things and it didn't produce the result they wanted.

    The problem, IMO, is with the group of people that voted in the referendum, the way things in the country were/are and how people felt about that combined with the Leave arguments and its media backing means that Leave wins unless the remain campaign is really good. With the benefit of hindsight...

    One way I can see of changing that is really driving up turnout among remain voters. Corbyn has an appeal to a section of people whereas I can't imagine Alan Johnson would have converted or brought out many voters for remain that weren't already secured for remain.
    You obviously didn't see it. They followed him around for months (until he spat his dummy because the self confessed Corbyn supporting journo asked one tough question) and it was shown he turned down opportunities to speak at rallies / events, and basically made it nearly impossible to get him to do anything.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,951
    edited June 2018

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    .


    Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.
    Considerinciopath.
    Given the U

    Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.

    They do, Br

    This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to

    You really think mostst haven't been further at least once.
    Europe and norths the case.
    Google to the rescue again:


    "Aside from Europe, North America is the most popular holiday spot for Britons, with 44% of British adults saying they have been. Africa (30%) is the second most popular destination, and 27% of Britons have also been to Asia. 14% have been to Australia and 12% have been to South America."

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/

    So, unless the Britons going to Africa, Aisa, Australia and S. America are sub-sets of the 44% who have been to N America, it seems that well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).

    (It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split :wink:)
    So 56% of Britons have light costs principally so I was right.
    No. You were wrong.

    "Twenty-two percent of Britons have never travelled on a plane and one in four have never visited a capital city in Europe,while nearly a third (29 per cent) have never travelled outside of Europe, and a fifth have never been to a beach, according to new research.

    So 71% of Britons have travelled outside Europe.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/a-quarter-of-britons-have-never-been-on-a-plane-visited-a-beach-or-european-capital/

    I would be extremely dubious of that claim especially when it says only 42% have been to the USA unless it included Tenerife and Turkey as 'outside Europe' in a similar way Americans could say going to Canada or Mexico is 'outside the USA'.

  • Options
    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,607

    I think one of the mistakes the pro remain media did was not to give more air time to the Corbyn campaign to remain in. I believe that would have done far more to convince Labour voters than the Alan Johnson official Labour remain campaign. I think there was more interest in continuing the Labour civil war which intensified just after the vote than winning the vote itself.

    In the end the media were far more interested in the Tory fight anyway. For all the blame to go around I think the pro remain media has to look at itself as well as pointing the finger at others.

    You obviously didn't watch the Vice special on Jezza....he declined / made himself unavailable numerous times.
    I'm not talking about interviews with him, much in the same way as the election he's at his best campaigning to people rather than doing interviews. If journalists were shooting and covering that and Corbyn's remain message but getting stopped by Corbyn then fair enough, I suspect they had their own agenda/thoughts that guided how they covered things and it didn't produce the result they wanted.

    The problem, IMO, is with the group of people that voted in the referendum, the way things in the country were/are and how people felt about that combined with the Leave arguments and its media backing means that Leave wins unless the remain campaign is really good. With the benefit of hindsight...

    One way I can see of changing that is really driving up turnout among remain voters. Corbyn has an appeal to a section of people whereas I can't imagine Alan Johnson would have converted or brought out many voters for remain that weren't already secured for remain.
    You obviously didn't see it. They followed him around for months and it was shown he turned down opportunities to speak at rallies / events, and basically made it nearly impossible to get him to do anything.
    Jez is, and always has been, a hard Brexit supporter. His 7/10 for remain comment was devastating. Much like the Queen's supposed "give me three good reasons why we should remain" was pretty difficult for the remain side to deal with.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    edited June 2018

    I think one of the mistakes the pro remain media did was not to give more air time to the Corbyn campaign to remain in. I believe that would have done far more to convince Labour voters than the Alan Johnson official Labour remain campaign. I think there was more interest in continuing the Labour civil war which intensified just after the vote than winning the vote itself.

    In the end the media were far more interested in the Tory fight anyway. For all the blame to go around I think the pro remain media has to look at itself as well as pointing the finger at others.

    You obviously didn't watch the Vice special on Jezza....he declined / made himself unavailable numerous times.
    I'm not talking about interviews with him, much in the same way as the election he's at his best campaigning to people rather than doing interviews. If journalists were shooting and covering that and Corbyn's remain message but getting stopped by Corbyn then fair enough, I suspect they had their own agenda/thoughts that guided how they covered things and it didn't produce the result they wanted.

    The problem, IMO, is with the group of people that voted in the referendum, the way things in the country were/are and how people felt about that combined with the Leave arguments and its media backing means that Leave wins unless the remain campaign is really good. With the benefit of hindsight...

    One way I can see of changing that is really driving up turnout among remain voters. Corbyn has an appeal to a section of people whereas I can't imagine Alan Johnson would have converted or brought out many voters for remain that weren't already secured for remain.
    And when Brexit has happened? And those who put their faith in Corbyn FINALLY see that he had no intention of getting in the way of delivering Brexit? Or of ever overturning it? What then, for that army of Remain-voting Corbynistas? Looks like a whole army of converts for the Can't Be Arsed Party next time around.....
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,694
    edited June 2018
    Elliot said:

    FF43 said:

    Sandpit said:

    Sandpit said:

    FF43 said:

    welshowl said:

    DavidL said:

    . .

    Delors was spectacularly successful, but at a price, he turned enough of the U.K. electorate (mostly on the right) from mildly positive to so negative they were set on the exit path.
    A great read......I would arguethat the populist UK right, aided by the Daily Mail, Express and a misguided sense of nostalgia of a B&W 1950s Britain were what turned folk against the EU -we suffer from a very powerful nostalgia and to this day I see it as one of the national malaise

    Nostalgia is the dominant force on the left and the right. The UK gives every sign of being a country that believes its best days are in the past.

    Astute point. "Global Britain" is a image of bygone age that people prefer to a disconcerting present and future.
    Believe me that that’s not how the rest of the world see a G7 country, member of the Security Council, soon to be the 4th biggest voice on the World Trade Organisation and one of the easiest countries in the world to do business or set up a business.

    The rest of the world sees a country inflicting harm on itself for no discernable gain.

    Disagree. 90% of world growth in the coming years will be outside the EU. As that organisation becomes increasingly protectionist, insular and overbearing with regulation, the biggest opportunities lie elsewhere. Like every change it will take some adjustment, but those companies willing to seize the opportunities will do very well in the future. A decade from now, I believe that most people will only be complaining that we didn’t leave the EU earlier.
    Not obvious from this chart why leaving "protectionist, insular" EU, which does a lot more international trade than we do, helps the UK

    image
    Really?It is pretty demomstrable from that chart that non-EU countries have far more economic growth than EU ones, and they are the ones we should piggy back off.

    Also, your fact is wrong. The UK exports a higher percentage of GDP to non-EU markets than the EU does.
    Checked the figures. Non eu trade is 33% of GDP for the UK and 35% for the EU as a whole So not a huge difference. Intra EU trade much higher for eurozone countries thanks to the EU breaking down barriers Brexit Britain wants to reinstate.

    Source: DG Trade statistical guide June 2018 p22
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,583
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    .


    Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.
    Considerinciopath.
    Given the U

    Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.

    They do, Br

    This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to

    You really think mostst haven't been further at least once.
    Europe and norths the case.
    Google to the rescue again:


    "Aside from Europe, North America is the most popular holiday spot for Britons, with 44% of British adults saying they have been. Africa (30%) is the second most popular destination, and 27% of Britons have also been to Asia. 14% have been to Australia and 12% have been to South America."

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/

    So, unless the Britons going to Africa, Aisa, Australia and S. America are sub-sets of the 44% who have been to N America, it seems that well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).

    (It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split :wink:)
    So 56% of Britons have light costs principally so I was right.
    No. You were wrong.

    "Twenty-two percent of Britons have never travelled on a plane and one in four have never visited a capital city in Europe,while nearly a third (29 per cent) have never travelled outside of Europe, and a fifth have never been to a beach, according to new research.

    So 71% of Britons have travelled outside Europe.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/a-quarter-of-britons-have-never-been-on-a-plane-visited-a-beach-or-european-capital/

    I would be extremely dubious of that claim especially when it says only 42% have been to the USA unless it included Tenerife and Turkey etc.

    Indeed
    Yep, if you don't like the evidence, just ignore it.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    edited June 2018
    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    PClipp said:

    Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......

    yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.

    Perhaps they were not inspired by the Conservative leadership of the Remain campaign. I certainly wasn`t.
    Enjoy your day in the sun in London....
    Just leaving home with six neighbours for the #peoplesvotemarch. I suspect it will be big.

    Depends what you define as big,

    Tens of thousands of people are expected to descend on Westminster for an anti-Brexit demonstration on Saturday

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/22/peoples-vote-march-against-brexit-london-thousands-expected

    Is that big?
    Not big enough. It needs to be 100,000+.

    I'm not into expectation management.
    Remind me, how big was the stop the Iraq War march?

    And how did that work out?

    EDIT: and at least that march happened before Comical Ali was denying there were tanks in Baghdad.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,951
    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    PClipp said:

    Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......

    yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.

    Perhaps they were not inspired by the Conservative leadership of the Remain campaign. I certainly wasn`t.
    Enjoy your day in the sun in London....
    Just leaving home with six neighbours for the #peoplesvotemarch. I suspect it will be big.

    Depends what you define as big,

    Tens of thousands of people are expected to descend on Westminster for an anti-Brexit demonstration on Saturday

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/22/peoples-vote-march-against-brexit-london-thousands-expected

    Is that big?
    Not big enough. It needs to be 100,000+.

    I'm not into expectation management.
    Will it match the 'Brexit and Betrayal' Leave rally though, also in London today?

    https://twitter.com/gerardbattenmep/status/1008973459345608704

    Anyone going to both?

  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,917

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    .


    Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.
    Considerinciopath.
    Given the U

    Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.

    They do, Br

    This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to

    You really think mostst haven't been further at least once.
    Europe and norths the case.
    Google to the rescue again:


    "Aside from Europe, North America is thend 12% have been to South America."

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/

    So, unless the Britons going to Africa, Aisa, Australia and S. America are sub-sets of the 44% who have been to N America, it seems that well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).

    (It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split :wink:)
    So 56% of Britons have never been to North America even if that is lower than the 72% of Americans who have never been to Europe.

    70% of Britons have never been to Africa, 73% of Britons have never been to Asia and 86% of Britons have never been to Australia though over 90% have been to continental Europe.

    And yes most of those going to Asia, Australia and Africa will be subsets of those going to N America on travel and flight costs principally so I was right.
    No. You were wrong.

    "Twenty-two percent of Britons have never travelled on a plane and one in four have never visited a capital city in Europe,while nearly a third (29 per cent) have never travelled outside of Europe, and a fifth have never been to a beach, according to new research.

    So 71% of Britons have travelled outside Europe.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/a-quarter-of-britons-have-never-been-on-a-plane-visited-a-beach-or-european-capital/

    20% of Brits have never been to a beach? That’s over 10 million people. I find that impossible to believe.

    And 30% have been to Africa - seriosly???? That’s over 15 million. Really????
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,951
    edited June 2018

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    .


    Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.
    Considerinciopath.
    Given the U

    Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.

    They do, Br

    This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to

    You really think mostst haven't been further at least once.
    Europe and norths the case.
    Google to the rescue again:


    "Aside from Europe, North America is the most popular holiday spot for Britons, with 44% of British adults saying they have been. Africa (30%) is the second most popular destination, and 27% of Britons have also been to Asia. 14% have been to Australia and 12% have been to South America."

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/

    So, unless the Britons going to Africa, Aisa, Australia and S. America are sub-sets of the 44% who have been to N America, it seems that well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).

    (It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split :wink:)
    So 56% of Britons have light costs principally so I was right.
    No. You were wrong.

    opean-capital/

    I would be extremely dubious of td Turkey etc.

    Indeed
    Yep, if you don't like the evidence, just ignore it.
    The evidence is clear that the only continent the majority of Britons have travelled to is Europe, Turkey is technically in Asia though with just a slice in Europe and Tenerife is off Africa though technically part of Spain (which may confuse those sampled) which would distort the figures for those saying they 'have travelled outside Europe'
  • Options
    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435

    I think one of the mistakes the pro remain media did was not to give more air time to the Corbyn campaign to remain in. I believe that would have done far more to convince Labour voters than the Alan Johnson official Labour remain campaign. I think there was more interest in continuing the Labour civil war which intensified just after the vote than winning the vote itself.

    In the end the media were far more interested in the Tory fight anyway. For all the blame to go around I think the pro remain media has to look at itself as well as pointing the finger at others.

    You obviously didn't watch the Vice special on Jezza....he declined / made himself unavailable numerous times.
    I'm not talking about interviews with him, much in the same way as the election he's at his best campaigning to people rather than doing interviews. If journalists were shooting and covering that and Corbyn's remain message but getting stopped by Corbyn then fair enough, I suspect they had their own agenda/thoughts that guided how they covered things and it didn't produce the result they wanted.

    The problem, IMO, is with the group of people that voted in the referendum, the way things in the country were/are and how people felt about that combined with the Leave arguments and its media backing means that Leave wins unless the remain campaign is really good. With the benefit of hindsight...

    One way I can see of changing that is really driving up turnout among remain voters. Corbyn has an appeal to a section of people whereas I can't imagine Alan Johnson would have converted or brought out many voters for remain that weren't already secured for remain.
    You obviously didn't see it. They followed him around for months (until he spat his dummy because the self confessed Corbyn supporting journo asked one tough question) and it was shown he turned down opportunities to speak at rallies / events, and basically made it nearly impossible to get him to do anything.
    The Labour leadership's position on the EU referendum campaign was dreadful...no leadership was shown at all...
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,970
    Mr. Observer, does that include places like the Canaries, though? Probably increases the stats a fair bit.
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    I think one of the mistakes the pro remain media did was not to give more air time to the Corbyn campaign to remain in. I believe that would have done far more to convince Labour voters than the Alan Johnson official Labour remain campaign. I think there was more interest in continuing the Labour civil war which intensified just after the vote than winning the vote itself.

    In the end the media were far more interested in the Tory fight anyway. For all the blame to go around I think the pro remain media has to look at itself as well as pointing the finger at others.

    You obviously didn't watch the Vice special on Jezza....he declined / made himself unavailable numerous times.
    I'm not talking about interviews with him, much in the same way as the election he's at his best campaigning to people rather than doing interviews. If journalists were shooting and covering that and Corbyn's remain message but getting stopped by Corbyn then fair enough, I suspect they had their own agenda/thoughts that guided how they covered things and it didn't produce the result they wanted.

    The problem, IMO, is with the group of people that voted in the referendum, the way things in the country were/are and how people felt about that combined with the Leave arguments and its media backing means that Leave wins unless the remain campaign is really good. With the benefit of hindsight...

    One way I can see of changing that is really driving up turnout among remain voters. Corbyn has an appeal to a section of people whereas I can't imagine Alan Johnson would have converted or brought out many voters for remain that weren't already secured for remain.
    You obviously didn't see it. They followed him around for months and it was shown he turned down opportunities to speak at rallies / events, and basically made it nearly impossible to get him to do anything.
    He didn't want to be part of the official campaigns for good reason but he certainly did speak at rallies and meetings across the country, the fact some pro remain journalists were more interested in attacking/ignoring Corbyn than staying in the EU is something for them to consider as we leave.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2018

    I think one of the mistakes the pro remain media did was not to give more air time to the Corbyn campaign to remain in. I believe that would have done far more to convince Labour voters than the Alan Johnson official Labour remain campaign. I think there was more interest in continuing the Labour civil war which intensified just after the vote than winning the vote itself.

    In the end the media were far more interested in the Tory fight anyway. For all the blame to go around I think the pro remain media has to look at itself as well as pointing the finger at others.

    You obviously didn't watch the Vice special on Jezza....he declined / made himself unavailable numerous times.
    I'm not talking about interviews with him, much in the same way as the election he's at his best campaigning to people rather than doing interviews. If journalists were shooting and covering that and Corbyn's remain message but getting stopped by Corbyn then fair enough, I suspect they had their own agenda/thoughts that guided how they covered things and it didn't produce the result they wanted.

    The problem, IMO, is with the group of people that voted in the referendum, the way things in the country were/are and how people felt about that combined with the Leave arguments and its media backing means that Leave wins unless the remain campaign is really good. With the benefit of hindsight...

    One way I can see of changing that is really driving up turnout among remain voters. Corbyn has an appeal to a section of people whereas I can't imagine Alan Johnson would have converted or brought out many voters for remain that weren't already secured for remain.
    You obviously didn't see it. They followed him around for months and it was shown he turned down opportunities to speak at rallies / events, and basically made it nearly impossible to get him to do anything.
    He didn't want to be part of the official campaigns for good reason but he certainly did speak at rallies and meetings across the country, the fact some pro remain journalists were more interested in attacking/ignoring Corbyn than staying in the EU is something for them to consider as we leave.
    Keep trying, you might even convince yourself. They caught his team on camera doing exactly the opposite.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,925
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    .


    Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.
    Considerinciopath.
    Given the U

    Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.

    They do, Br

    This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to

    You really think mostst haven't been further at least once.
    Europe and norths the case.
    Google to the rescue again:


    "Aside from Europe, North America is the most popular holiday spot for Britons, with 44% of British adults saying they have been. Africa (30%) is the second most popular destination, and 27% of Britons have also been to Asia. 14% have been to Australia and 12% have been to South America."

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/

    So, unless the Britons going to Africa, Aisa, Australia and S. America are sub-sets of the 44% who have been to N America, it seems that well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).

    (It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split :wink:)
    So 56% of Britons have light costs principally so I was right.
    No. You were wrong.

    opean-capital/

    I would be extremely dubious of td Turkey etc.

    Indeed
    Yep, if you don't like the evidence, just ignore it.
    The evidence is clear that the only continent the majority of Britons have travelled to is Europe, Turkey is technically in Asia though with just a slice in Europe and Tenerife is off Africa though technically part of Spain (which may confuse those sampled) which would distort the figures for those saying they 'have travelled outside Europe'
    Is that first sentence surprising? We’re an offshore European island, there are dozens (probably hundreds in high summer) of cheap flights daily and hundreds of holiday offers.
  • Options
    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,827

    I think one of the mistakes the pro remain media did was not to give more air time to the Corbyn campaign to remain in. I believe that would have done far more to convince Labour voters than the Alan Johnson official Labour remain campaign. I think there was more interest in continuing the Labour civil war which intensified just after the vote than winning the vote itself.

    In the end the media were far more interested in the Tory fight anyway. For all the blame to go around I think the pro remain media has to look at itself as well as pointing the finger at others.

    You obviously didn't watch the Vice special on Jezza....he declined / made himself unavailable numerous times.
    I'm not talking about interviews with him, much in the same way as the election he's at his best campaigning to people rather than doing interviews. If journalists were shooting and covering that and Corbyn's remain message but getting stopped by Corbyn then fair enough, I suspect they had their own agenda/thoughts that guided how they covered things and it didn't produce the result they wanted.

    The problem, IMO, is with the group of people that voted in the referendum, the way things in the country were/are and how people felt about that combined with the Leave arguments and its media backing means that Leave wins unless the remain campaign is really good. With the benefit of hindsight...

    One way I can see of changing that is really driving up turnout among remain voters. Corbyn has an appeal to a section of people whereas I can't imagine Alan Johnson would have converted or brought out many voters for remain that weren't already secured for remain.
    You obviously didn't see it. They followed him around for months and it was shown he turned down opportunities to speak at rallies / events, and basically made it nearly impossible to get him to do anything.
    He didn't want to be part of the official campaigns for good reason but he certainly did speak at rallies and meetings across the country, the fact some pro remain journalists were more interested in attacking/ignoring Corbyn than staying in the EU is something for them to consider as we leave.
    Did a lot more than TM (the Submarine) though
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    I keep receiving emails from my local Labour PPC asking me to help with door knocking in Norwich North despite not having been a party member since the end of 1996 - though I did sign up as a supporter in order to vote in the 2015 Leadership Election.I have now replied to her directly informing her that I have no intention of supporting a gender-vetted candidate at the next election.
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    I think one of the mistakes the pro remain media did was not to give more air time to the Corbyn campaign to remain in. I believe that would have done far more to convince Labour voters than the Alan Johnson official Labour remain campaign. I think there was more interest in continuing the Labour civil war which intensified just after the vote than winning the vote itself.

    In the end the media were far more interested in the Tory fight anyway. For all the blame to go around I think the pro remain media has to look at itself as well as pointing the finger at others.

    You obviously didn't watch the Vice special on Jezza....he declined / made himself unavailable numerous times.
    I'm not talking about interviews with him, much in the same way as the election he's at his best campaigning to people rather than doing interviews. If journalists were shooting and covering that and Corbyn's remain message but getting stopped by Corbyn then fair enough, I suspect they had their own agenda/thoughts that guided how they covered things and it didn't produce the result they wanted.

    The problem, IMO, is with the group of people that voted in the referendum, the way things in the country were/are and how people felt about that combined with the Leave arguments and its media backing means that Leave wins unless the remain campaign is really good. With the benefit of hindsight...

    One way I can see of changing that is really driving up turnout among remain voters. Corbyn has an appeal to a section of people whereas I can't imagine Alan Johnson would have converted or brought out many voters for remain that weren't already secured for remain.
    And when Brexit has happened? And those who put their faith in Corbyn FINALLY see that he had no intention of getting in the way of delivering Brexit? Or of ever overturning it? What then, for that army of Remain-voting Corbynistas? Looks like a whole army of converts for the Can't Be Arsed Party next time around.....
    I don't know if you missed the original comments but the discussion is centred around the actual referendum rather than overturning the referendum via a general election. So it would be voting for remain rather than voting for Corbyn, although you might have inadvertently somewhat made my point for me. Being anti Corbyn was more important than pro remain, in the end they might not get their way on either.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,951
    edited June 2018

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    .


    Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.
    Considerinciopath.
    Given the U

    Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.

    They do, Br

    This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to

    You really think mostst haven't been further at least once.
    Europe and norths the case.
    Google to the rescue again:


    "Aside from Europe, North America is thend 12% have been to South America."

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/

    So, unless the Britons going to Africa, Aisa, Australia and S. America are sub-sets of the 44% who have been to N America, it seems that well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).

    (It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split :wink:)
    So 56% of Britons have never been to North America even if that is lower than the 72% of Americans who right.
    No. You were wrong.

    "Twenty-two percent of Britons have never travelled on a plane and one in four have never visited a capital city in Europe,while nearly a third (29 per cent) have never travelled outside of Europe, and a fifth have never been to a beach, according to new research.

    So 71% of Britons have travelled outside Europe.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/a-quarter-of-britons-have-never-been-on-a-plane-visited-a-beach-or-european-capital/

    20% of Brits have never been to a beach? That’s over 10 million people. I find that impossible to believe.

    And 30% have been to Africa - seriosly???? That’s over 15 million. Really????
    Africa includes Egypt, South Africa, Kenya, Morocco, Tunisia, Mauritius and the Seychelles so I could believe 30% have been there.

    The 20% who have never been to a beach are probably mainly from the inner cities
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/paulasherriff/status/1010458068038115330

    Now that the Tories have sacrificed fiscal responsibility and business on the altar of Brexit purity, what exactly can they pitch at the next election?
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,925

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    .


    Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.
    Considerinciopath.
    Given the U

    Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.

    They do, Br

    This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to

    You really think mostst haven't been further at least once.
    Europe and norths the case.
    Google to the rescue again:


    "Aside from Europe, North America is thend 12% have been to South America."

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/

    So, unless the Britons going to Africa, Aisa, Australia and S. America are sub-sets of the 44% who have been to N America, it seems that well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).

    (It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split :wink:)
    So 56% of Britons have never been to North America even if that is lower than the 72% of Americans who have never been to Europe.

    70% of Britons have never been to Africa, 73% of Britons have never been to Asia and 86% of Britons have never been to Australia though over 90% have been to continental Europe.


    No. You were wrong.


    So 71% of Britons have travelled outside Europe.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/a-quarter-of-britons-have-never-been-on-a-plane-visited-a-beach-or-european-capital/

    20% of Brits have never been to a beach? That’s over 10 million people. I find that impossible to believe.

    And 30% have been to Africa - seriosly???? That’s over 15 million. Really????
    There are lots of flights to North African holiday destinations and relatively cheap offers to South Africa. I do find the figure about the beach surprising, though, although I don’t think beach/sun holidays are as popular with the non-Europeans who have settled here as with European-type residents.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,951

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    .


    Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.
    Considerinciopath.
    Given the U

    Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.

    They do, Br

    This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to

    You really think mostst haven't been further at least once.
    Europe and norths the case.
    Google to the rescue again:


    "Aside from Europe, North America is at well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).

    (It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split :wink:)
    So 56% of Britons have light costs principally so I was right.
    No. You were wrong.

    opean-capital/

    I would be extremely dubious of td Turkey etc.

    Indeed
    Yep, if you don't like the evidence, just ignore it.
    The evidence is clear that the only continent the majority of Britons have travelled to is Europe, Turkey is technically in Asia though with just a slice in Europe and Tenerife is off Africa though technically part of Spain (which may confuse those sampled) which would distort the figures for those saying they 'have travelled outside Europe'
    Is that first sentence surprising? We’re an offshore European island, there are dozens (probably hundreds in high summer) of cheap flights daily and hundreds of holiday offers.
    Cost of flights is of course key, the longer the flight, the more the cost
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2018


    There are lots of flights to North African holiday destinations and relatively cheap offers to South Africa. I do find the figure about the beach surprising, though, although I don’t think beach/sun holidays are as popular with the non-Europeans who have settled here as with European-type residents.

    Before the terrorists attacks in North Africa, places like Tunisia and Egypt were very popular as much cheaper than Spain or Portugal. A quick google shows 1.5 million Brits went on vacation to Egypt in 2010.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    FF43 said:



    Checked the figures. Non eu trade is 33% of GDP for the UK and 35% for the EU as a whole So not a huge difference. Intra EU trade much higher for eurozone countries thanks to the EU breaking down barriers Brexit Britain wants to reinstate.

    Source: DG Trade statistical guide June 2018 p22

    No intra-EU trade is much higher for Eurozone nations for them physically bordering each other in a way we don't. For many EU nations trade going the distance of Edinburgh to London would class as INTRA-EU but it doesn't for us.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,694
    HYUFD said:

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    PClipp said:

    Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......

    yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.

    Perhaps they were not inspired by the Conservative leadership of the Remain campaign. I certainly wasn`t.
    Enjoy your day in the sun in London....
    Just leaving home with six neighbours for the #peoplesvotemarch. I suspect it will be big.

    Depends what you define as big,

    Tens of thousands of people are expected to descend on Westminster for an anti-Brexit demonstration on Saturday

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/22/peoples-vote-march-against-brexit-london-thousands-expected

    Is that big?
    Not big enough. It needs to be 100,000+.

    I'm not into expectation management.
    Will it match the 'Brexit and Betrayal' Leave rally though, also in London today?

    https://twitter.com/gerardbattenmep/status/1008973459345608704

    Anyone going to both?

    "Brexit and Betrayal"? Shouldn't hebe celebrating success on the second anniversary of independence day?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,951
    edited June 2018
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/paulasherriff/status/1010458068038115330

    Now that the Tories have sacrificed fiscal responsibility and business on the altar of Brexit purity, what exactly can they pitch at the next election?

    Regaining sovereignty and reducing immigration for the 17 million who voted Leave, keeping out Corbyn for the business community
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    MaxPB said:

    You obviously didn't see it. They followed him around for months and it was shown he turned down opportunities to speak at rallies / events, and basically made it nearly impossible to get him to do anything.
    Jez is, and always has been, a hard Brexit supporter. His 7/10 for remain comment was devastating. Much like the Queen's supposed "give me three good reasons why we should remain" was pretty difficult for the remain side to deal with.
    I've never understood the logic to this, if you are slightly eurosceptic or considering voting leave a bare faced lie claiming the EU is 10/10 isn't going to convince you, a more honest 7/10 assessment might not either but it is probably better.

    Although I wonder if this is part of why Corbyn appeals to younger people and not older people. I prefer the honesty, it wouldn't have changed my vote but Corbyn saying the EU is 10/10 would have just been a lie, I'm sure anyone who looks at it can come up with flaws with the EU. If I was wavering on a subject I'd more likely vote for something that someone honestly assessed as good even if they could see flaws rather than pretend it is perfect. I get the feeling older voters like more certainty though, either the EU must be great or terrible. It is either the Germans taking over again and we must get our independence back or I can't think of much here other than criticising someone for only calling it 7/10... most of the EU is great stuff seemed to centre around the absence of it being bad.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,694

    FF43 said:



    Checked the figures. Non eu trade is 33% of GDP for the UK and 35% for the EU as a whole So not a huge difference. Intra EU trade much higher for eurozone countries thanks to the EU breaking down barriers Brexit Britain wants to reinstate.

    Source: DG Trade statistical guide June 2018 p22

    No intra-EU trade is much higher for Eurozone nations for them physically bordering each other in a way we don't. For many EU nations trade going the distance of Edinburgh to London would class as INTRA-EU but it doesn't for us.
    The point is, less UK EU trade simply reflects our lower trade overall. It isn't because the EU is protectionist and holding us back. The opposite in fact.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    The US Navy is reportedly planning to build sprawling immigrant detention centres on military bases, amid a Trump crackdown at the US-Mexico border.

    A draft memo obtained by Time magazine outlines plans to build "austere" tent camps to house 25,000 migrants.

    The memo says the camps would be built on abandoned airfields in California, Alabama, and Arizona.

    Another camp near San Francisco is being designed for as many as 47,000 people, the memo says.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-44585716
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    That's a really good article, David - it manages to be topical yet looking at the roots of an issue, and also lightish-hearted but quite deep. You really are a very good writer. Many thanks.
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    PClipp said:

    Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......

    yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.

    Perhaps they were not inspired by the Conservative leadership of the Remain campaign. I certainly wasn`t.
    Enjoy your day in the sun in London....
    Just leaving home with six neighbours for the #peoplesvotemarch. I suspect it will be big.

    Depends what you define as big,

    Tens of thousands of people are expected to descend on Westminster for an anti-Brexit demonstration on Saturday

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/22/peoples-vote-march-against-brexit-london-thousands-expected

    Is that big?
    Not big enough. It needs to be 100,000+.

    I'm not into expectation management.
    Will it match the 'Brexit and Betrayal' Leave rally though, also in London today?

    https://twitter.com/gerardbattenmep/status/1008973459345608704

    Anyone going to both?

    "Brexit and Betrayal"? Shouldn't hebe celebrating success on the second anniversary of independence day?
    Quite impressive that the government have managed to upset both sides.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,951
    edited June 2018
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    PClipp said:

    Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......

    yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.

    Perhaps they were not inspired by the Conservative leadership of the Remain campaign. I certainly wasn`t.
    Enjoy your day in the sun in London....
    Just leaving home with six neighbours for the #peoplesvotemarch. I suspect it will be big.

    Depends what you define as big,

    Tens of thousands of people are expected to descend on Westminster for an anti-Brexit demonstration on Saturday

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/22/peoples-vote-march-against-brexit-london-thousands-expected

    Is that big?
    Not big enough. It needs to be 100,000+.

    I'm not into expectation management.
    Will it match the 'Brexit and Betrayal' Leave rally though, also in London today?

    https://twitter.com/gerardbattenmep/status/1008973459345608704

    Anyone going to both?

    "Brexit and Betrayal"? Shouldn't hebe celebrating success on the second anniversary of independence day?
    Today is a day for straight to WTO terms, no exit bill and transition period and slam the doors shut to immigrants on our way out diehard Brexiteers and straight back to the EU and the single market and customs union and maybe even add the Euro and Schengen too diehard Remainers, those in the middle will stay away from central London today on the Brexit anniversary
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,292

    At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.

    Which event should I go to to avoid elitists?
    Ascot.

    Judging by the sound and style of the majority of the people on my train, it’s popular with the masses too.
    Horrible people. I live in Windsor and Ascot week is dreaded. Imagine the most obnoxious drunken tw*ts from across the social spectrum descending upon one town and you'll get an idea. On Thursday I was abused by one 'racegoer' as I was walking home. A few years ago one attempted to rob me. Awful occasion. Awful drunken, nasty yobs.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,925
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    .


    Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.
    Considerinciopath.
    Given the U

    Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.

    They do, Br

    This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to

    You really think mostst haven't been further at least once.
    Europe and norths the case.
    Google to the rescue again:


    "Aside from Europe, North America is at well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).

    (It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split :wink:)
    So 56% of Britons have light costs principally so I was right.
    No. You were wrong.

    opean-capital/

    I would be extremely dubious of td Turkey etc.

    Indeed
    Yep, if you don't like the evidence, just ignore it.
    The evidence is clear that the only continent the majority of Britons have travelled to is Europe, Turkey is technically in Asia though with just a slice in Europe and Tenerife is off Africa though technically part of Spain (which may confuse those sampled) which would distort the figures for those saying they 'have travelled outside Europe'
    Is that first sentence surprising? We’re an offshore European island, there are dozens (probably hundreds in high summer) of cheap flights daily and hundreds of holiday offers.
    Cost of flights is of course key, the longer the flight, the more the cost
    I wonder which category holidays in Ireland were?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2018

    At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.

    Which event should I go to to avoid elitists?
    Ascot.

    Judging by the sound and style of the majority of the people on my train, it’s popular with the masses too.
    Horrible people. I live in Windsor. Imagine the most obnoxious drunken tw*ts from across the social spectrum descending upon one town and you'll get an idea.
    Did the Royals and the hangers-on really get that our of hand at the wedding?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,280

    At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.

    Which event should I go to to avoid elitists?
    Ascot.

    Judging by the sound and style of the majority of the people on my train, it’s popular with the masses too.
    Horrible people. I live in Windsor and Ascot week is dreaded. Imagine the most obnoxious drunken tw*ts from across the social spectrum descending upon one town and you'll get an idea. On Thursday I was abused by one 'racegoer' as I was walking home. A few years ago one attempted to rob me. Awful occasion. Awful drunken, nasty yobs.
    Yes, unfortunately it does attract a few chavs. There is also quite a police presence here too.

    Thankfully, not in my enclosure.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2018

    At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.

    Which event should I go to to avoid elitists?
    Ascot.

    Judging by the sound and style of the majority of the people on my train, it’s popular with the masses too.
    Horrible people. I live in Windsor and Ascot week is dreaded. Imagine the most obnoxious drunken tw*ts from across the social spectrum descending upon one town and you'll get an idea. On Thursday I was abused by one 'racegoer' as I was walking home. A few years ago one attempted to rob me. Awful occasion. Awful drunken, nasty yobs.
    Yes, unfortunately it does attract a few chavs. There is also quite a police presence here too.

    Thankfully, not in my enclosure.
    It does seem like the various big race festivals have now become big chav magnets.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    .


    Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.
    Considerinciopath.
    Given the U

    Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.

    They do, Br

    This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to

    You really think mostst haven't been further at least once.
    Europe and norths the case.
    Google to the rescue again:


    "Aside from Europe, North America is the most popular holiday spot for Britons, with 44% of British adults saying they have been. Africa (30%) is the second most popular destination, and 27% of Britons have also been to Asia. 14% have been to Australia and 12% have been to South America."

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/

    So, unless the Britons going to Africa, Aisa, Australia and S. America are sub-sets of the 44% who have been to N America, it seems that well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).

    (It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split :wink:)
    So 56% of Britons have light costs principally so I was right.
    No. You were wrong.

    opean-capital/

    I would be extremely dubious of td Turkey etc.

    Indeed
    Yep, if you don't like the evidence, just ignore it.
    The evidence is clear that the only continent the majority of Britons have travelled to is Europe, Turkey is technically in Asia though with just a slice in Europe and Tenerife is off Africa though technically part of Spain (which may confuse those sampled) which would distort the figures for those saying they 'have travelled outside Europe'
    Turkey is not technically in Asia, it is in Asia. But I applaud the logic of excluding the bits of Asia which Britons have been to, from counting as evidence that Britons have been to Asia.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,583
    Ishmael_Z said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    .


    Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.
    Considerinciopath.
    Given the U

    Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.

    They do, Br

    This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to

    You really think mostst haven't been further at least once.
    Europe and norths the case.
    Google to the rescue again:


    "Aside from Europe, North America is the most popular holiday spot for Britons, with 44% of British adults saying they have been. Africa (30%) is the second most popular destination, and 27% of Britons have also been to Asia. 14% have been to Australia and 12% have been to South America."

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/

    So, unless the Britons going to Africa, Aisa, Australia and S. America are sub-sets of the 44% who have been to N America, it seems that well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).

    (It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split :wink:)
    So 56% of Britons have light costs principally so I was right.
    No. You were wrong.

    opean-capital/

    I would be extremely dubious of td Turkey etc.

    Indeed
    Yep, if you don't like the evidence, just ignore it.
    The evidence is clear that the only continent the majority of Britons have travelled to is Europe, Turkey is technically in Asia though with just a slice in Europe and Tenerife is off Africa though technically part of Spain (which may confuse those sampled) which would distort the figures for those saying they 'have travelled outside Europe'
    Turkey is not technically in Asia, it is in Asia. But I applaud the logic of excluding the bits of Asia which Britons have been to, from counting as evidence that Britons have been to Asia.
    :lol: If the facts don't fit, change or ignore them!
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,694
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/paulasherriff/status/1010458068038115330

    Now that the Tories have sacrificed fiscal responsibility and business on the altar of Brexit purity, what exactly can they pitch at the next election?

    Leaving aside the implications, "Fuck business" is a great slogan. Short, memorable.and differentiating.
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840


    You obviously didn't watch the Vice special on Jezza....he declined / made himself unavailable numerous times.
    I'm not talking about interviews with him, much in the same way as the election he's at his best campaigning to people rather than doing interviews. If journalists were shooting and covering that and Corbyn's remain message but getting stopped by Corbyn then fair enough, I suspect they had their own agenda/thoughts that guided how they covered things and it didn't produce the result they wanted.

    The problem, IMO, is with the group of people that voted in the referendum, the way things in the country were/are and how people felt about that combined with the Leave arguments and its media backing means that Leave wins unless the remain campaign is really good. With the benefit of hindsight...

    One way I can see of changing that is really driving up turnout among remain voters. Corbyn has an appeal to a section of people whereas I can't imagine Alan Johnson would have converted or brought out many voters for remain that weren't already secured for remain.
    You obviously didn't see it. They followed him around for months and it was shown he turned down opportunities to speak at rallies / events, and basically made it nearly impossible to get him to do anything.
    He didn't want to be part of the official campaigns for good reason but he certainly did speak at rallies and meetings across the country, the fact some pro remain journalists were more interested in attacking/ignoring Corbyn than staying in the EU is something for them to consider as we leave.
    Keep trying, you might even convince yourself. They caught his team on camera doing exactly the opposite.
    They caught him on camera doing the opposite to speaking at rallies and meetings?

    I wasn't claiming he was permanently talking at rallies and meetings, I imagine he slept and other things but video evidence of him not being at a rally or a meeting during the EU referendum doesn't prove he didn't attend one any more than video evidence of him not being at a rally or meeting during the election campaign proves he didn't attend one.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,951
    Ishmael_Z said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    .


    Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.
    Considerinciopath.
    Given the U

    Most Trump voters have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.

    They do, Br

    This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to

    You really think mostst haven't been further at least once.
    Europe and norths the case.
    Google to the rescue again:


    "Aside from Europe, North America is the most popular holiday spot for Britons, with 44% of British adults saying they have been. Africa (30%) is the second most popular destination, and 27% of Britons have also been to Asia. 14% have been to Australia and 12% have been to South America."

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/

    So, unless the Britons going to Africa, Aisa, Australia and S. America are sub-sets of the 44% who have been to N America, it seems that well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).

    (It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split :wink:)
    So 56% of Britons have light costs principally so I was right.
    No. You were wrong.

    opean-capital/

    I would be extremely dubious of td Turkey etc.

    Indeed
    Yep, if you don't like the evidence, just ignore it.
    The evidence is clear that the only continent the majority of Britons have travelled to is Europe, Turkey is technically in Asia though with just a slice in Europe and Tenerife is off Africa though technically part of Spain (which may confuse those sampled) which would distort the figures for those saying they 'have travelled outside Europe'
    Turkey is not technically in Asia, it is in Asia. But I applaud the logic of excluding the bits of Asia which Britons have been to, from counting as evidence that Britons have been to Asia.
    Istanbul is in Europe and in Turkey
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274


    You obviously didn't watch the Vice special on Jezza....he declined / made himself unavailable numerous times.
    I'm not talking about interviews with him, much in the same way as the election he's at his best campaigning to people rather than doing interviews. If journalists were shooting and covering that and Corbyn's remain message but getting stopped by Corbyn then fair enough, I suspect they had their own agenda/thoughts that guided how they covered things and it didn't produce the result they wanted.

    The problem, IMO, is with the group of people that voted in the referendum, the way things in the country were/are and how people felt about that combined with the Leave arguments and its media backing means that Leave wins unless the remain campaign is really good. With the benefit of hindsight...

    One way I can see of changing that is really driving up turnout among remain voters. Corbyn has an appeal to a section of people whereas I can't imagine Alan Johnson would have converted or brought out many voters for remain that weren't already secured for remain.
    You obviously didn't see it. They followed him around for months and it was shown he turned down opportunities to speak at rallies / events, and basically made it nearly impossible to get him to do anything.
    He didn't want to be part of the official campaigns for good reason but he certainly did speak at rallies and meetings across the country, the fact some pro remain journalists were more interested in attacking/ignoring Corbyn than staying in the EU is something for them to consider as we leave.
    Keep trying, you might even convince yourself. They caught his team on camera doing exactly the opposite.
    They caught him on camera doing the opposite to speaking at rallies and meetings?

    I wasn't claiming he was permanently talking at rallies and meetings, I imagine he slept and other things but video evidence of him not being at a rally or a meeting during the EU referendum doesn't prove he didn't attend one any more than video evidence of him not being at a rally or meeting during the election campaign proves he didn't attend one.
    Go do your research.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,951

    At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.

    Which event should I go to to avoid elitists?
    Ascot.

    Judging by the sound and style of the majority of the people on my train, it’s popular with the masses too.
    Horrible people. I live in Windsor and Ascot week is dreaded. Imagine the most obnoxious drunken tw*ts from across the social spectrum descending upon one town and you'll get an idea. On Thursday I was abused by one 'racegoer' as I was walking home. A few years ago one attempted to rob me. Awful occasion. Awful drunken, nasty yobs.
    The posh go to Goodwood more than Ascot now and the polo at Cowdray Park
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,292

    At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.

    Which event should I go to to avoid elitists?
    Ascot.

    Judging by the sound and style of the majority of the people on my train, it’s popular with the masses too.
    Horrible people. I live in Windsor. Imagine the most obnoxious drunken tw*ts from across the social spectrum descending upon one town and you'll get an idea.
    Did the Royals and the hangers-on really get that our of hand at the wedding?
    Ha, ha! No, apparently the wedding party and the hordes of onlookers were well behaved as far as I'm aware, though I wasn't around that weekend. It's just Royal Ascot that attracts this unsavoury mix of wide boys and chinless wonders. I think that just because they're attending an event with 'Royal' in the title it gives them delusions of grandeur and a perceived licence to be an areshole. All rather sad really.
  • Options
    felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    Sandpit said:

    Nigelb said:

    .


    Edit: another thought that crossed my mind yesterday, what if ide.
    Considerinciopath.
    Given the U

    have absolutely no idea what Brexit is.

    They do, Br

    This is palpable nonsense. But I know you will dig in and refuse to

    You really think mostst haven't been further at least once.
    Europe and norths the case.
    Google to the rescue again:


    "Aside from Europe, North America is thend 12% have been to South America."

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/11/21/british-people-far-more-well-travelled-americans/

    So, unless the Britons going to Africa, Aisa, Australia and S. America are sub-sets of the 44% who have been to N America, it seems that well over 50% of Britons have travelled beyond Europe (unsurprisingly).

    (It'd be interesting to see that as a Leave/Remain split :wink:)
    So 56% of Britons have never been to North America even if that is lower than the 72% of Americans who have never been to Europe.

    70% of Britons have never been to Africa, 73% of Britons have never been to Asia and 86% of Britons have never been to Australia though over 90% have been to continental Europe.

    And yes most of those going to Asia, Australia and Africa will be subsets of those going to N America on travel and flight costs principally so I was right.
    No. You were wrong.

    "Twenty-two percent of Britons have never travelled on a plane and one in four have never visited a capital city in Europe,while nearly a third (29 per cent) have never travelled outside of Europe, and a fifth have never been to a beach, according to new research.

    So 71% of Britons have travelled outside Europe.

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/a-quarter-of-britons-have-never-been-on-a-plane-visited-a-beach-or-european-capital/

    20% of Brits have never been to a beach? That’s over 10 million people. I find that impossible to believe.

    And 30% have been to Africa - seriosly???? That’s over 15 million. Really????
    When you include the north African resorts it's believable.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,855
    edited June 2018

    At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.

    Which event should I go to to avoid elitists?
    Ascot.

    Judging by the sound and style of the majority of the people on my train, it’s popular with the masses too.
    Horrible people. I live in Windsor and Ascot week is dreaded. Imagine the most obnoxious drunken tw*ts from across the social spectrum descending upon one town and you'll get an idea. On Thursday I was abused by one 'racegoer' as I was walking home. A few years ago one attempted to rob me. Awful occasion. Awful drunken, nasty yobs.
    Yes, unfortunately it does attract a few chavs. There is also quite a police presence here too.

    Thankfully, not in my enclosure.
    It does seem like the various big race festivals have now become big chav magnets.
    One thing that racecourses are really good at is segregating attendees, with separate entrances and facilities. They never see each other all day until they get to the station in the evening.

    AIUI the old “Silver Ring” chav zone at Ascot has now been moved from the 4 furlong pole next to the grandstand, across the track into the middle. They’ll barely see a horse all day, let alone those who paid good money for grandstand tickets or the Royal Enclosure.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,544
    AnneJGP said:

    That's a really good article, David - it manages to be topical yet looking at the roots of an issue, and also lightish-hearted but quite deep. You really are a very good writer. Many thanks.

    I liked the subtle biblical allusion in the title. Brexit starts with genesis, and ends in the apocalypse :)
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Sandpit said:

    At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.

    Which event should I go to to avoid elitists?
    Ascot.

    Judging by the sound and style of the majority of the people on my train, it’s popular with the masses too.
    Horrible people. I live in Windsor and Ascot week is dreaded. Imagine the most obnoxious drunken tw*ts from across the social spectrum descending upon one town and you'll get an idea. On Thursday I was abused by one 'racegoer' as I was walking home. A few years ago one attempted to rob me. Awful occasion. Awful drunken, nasty yobs.
    Yes, unfortunately it does attract a few chavs. There is also quite a police presence here too.

    Thankfully, not in my enclosure.
    It does seem like the various big race festivals have now become big chav magnets.
    One thing that racecourses are really good at is segregating attendees, with separate entrances and facilities. They never see each other all day until they get to the station in the evening.

    AIUI the old “Silver Ring” chav zone at Ascot has now been moved from the 4 furlong pole next to the grandstand, across the track into the middle. They’ll barely see a horse all day.
    Surprised the Gruardian haven't been all over this setup...poor doors are totally unacceptable ;-)
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,583
    FF43 said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/paulasherriff/status/1010458068038115330

    Now that the Tories have sacrificed fiscal responsibility and business on the altar of Brexit purity, what exactly can they pitch at the next election?

    Leaving aside the implications, "Fuck business" is a great slogan. Short, memorable.and differentiating.
    Can you imagine the uproar if McDonnell had said it? :smile:
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,280

    At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.

    Which event should I go to to avoid elitists?
    Ascot.

    Judging by the sound and style of the majority of the people on my train, it’s popular with the masses too.
    Horrible people. I live in Windsor. Imagine the most obnoxious drunken tw*ts from across the social spectrum descending upon one town and you'll get an idea.
    Did the Royals and the hangers-on really get that our of hand at the wedding?
    Ha, ha! No, apparently the wedding party and the hordes of onlookers were well behaved as far as I'm aware, though I wasn't around that weekend. It's just Royal Ascot that attracts this unsavoury mix of wide boys and chinless wonders. I think that just because they're attending an event with 'Royal' in the title it gives them delusions of grandeur and a perceived licence to be an areshole. All rather sad really.
    There is some truth in that.

    Far too many people simply don’t know how to behave.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274

    FF43 said:

    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/paulasherriff/status/1010458068038115330

    Now that the Tories have sacrificed fiscal responsibility and business on the altar of Brexit purity, what exactly can they pitch at the next election?

    Leaving aside the implications, "Fuck business" is a great slogan. Short, memorable.and differentiating.
    Can you imagine the uproar if McDonnell had said it? :smile:
    I thought he said it in every speech he does?
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,280

    At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.

    Which event should I go to to avoid elitists?
    Ascot.

    Judging by the sound and style of the majority of the people on my train, it’s popular with the masses too.
    Horrible people. I live in Windsor and Ascot week is dreaded. Imagine the most obnoxious drunken tw*ts from across the social spectrum descending upon one town and you'll get an idea. On Thursday I was abused by one 'racegoer' as I was walking home. A few years ago one attempted to rob me. Awful occasion. Awful drunken, nasty yobs.
    Yes, unfortunately it does attract a few chavs. There is also quite a police presence here too.

    Thankfully, not in my enclosure.
    It does seem like the various big race festivals have now become big chav magnets.
    Yes. Gambling and alcohol can be a heady mix.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    Checked the figures. Non eu trade is 33% of GDP for the UK and 35% for the EU as a whole So not a huge difference. Intra EU trade much higher for eurozone countries thanks to the EU breaking down barriers Brexit Britain wants to reinstate.

    Source: DG Trade statistical guide June 2018 p22

    No intra-EU trade is much higher for Eurozone nations for them physically bordering each other in a way we don't. For many EU nations trade going the distance of Edinburgh to London would class as INTRA-EU but it doesn't for us.
    The point is, less UK EU trade simply reflects our lower trade overall. It isn't because the EU is protectionist and holding us back. The opposite in fact.
    So we have a free trade agreement with the USA? Or China? Or Japan? In fact name one non-European nation with an economy larger than ours that we have a free trade agreement with.

    Or are you claiming free trade agreements don't matter, in which case why does our EU membership matter?

    Seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it.
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840


    You obviously didn't watch the Vice special on Jezza....he declined / made himself unavailable numerous times.
    You obviously didn't see it. They followed him around for months and it was shown he turned down opportunities to speak at rallies / events, and basically made it nearly impossible to get him to do anything.
    He didn't want to be part of the official campaigns for good reason but he certainly did speak at rallies and meetings across the country, the fact some pro remain journalists were more interested in attacking/ignoring Corbyn than staying in the EU is something for them to consider as we leave.
    Keep trying, you might even convince yourself. They caught his team on camera doing exactly the opposite.
    They caught him on camera doing the opposite to speaking at rallies and meetings?

    I wasn't claiming he was permanently talking at rallies and meetings, I imagine he slept and other things but video evidence of him not being at a rally or a meeting during the EU referendum doesn't prove he didn't attend one any more than video evidence of him not being at a rally or meeting during the election campaign proves he didn't attend one.
    Go do your research.
    I accepted your point, like the election he was certainly not at rallies and meetings at different times, with video evidence proof of it I imagine....

    I just don't accept your overall point that is proof that he didn't speak at rallies and meetings, for one he certainly did, for two filming him not doing so is not actually the equivalent of him not doing so. It only proves he wasn't at those moments.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,855
    F1: Absolutely p!ssing it down in the south of France. P3 session supposedly underway.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,970
    F1: third practice underway. Rain at turn five, contrary to earlier forecasts.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited June 2018


    You obviously didn't watch the Vice special on Jezza....he declined / made himself unavailable numerous times.
    You obviously didn't see it. They followed him around for months and it was shown he turned down opportunities to speak at rallies / events, and basically made it nearly impossible to get him to do anything.
    He didn't want to be part of the official campaigns for good reason but he certainly did speak at rallies and meetings across the country, the fact some pro remain journalists were more interested in attacking/ignoring Corbyn than staying in the EU is something for them to consider as we leave.
    Keep trying, you might even convince yourself. They caught his team on camera doing exactly the opposite.
    They caught him on camera doing the opposite to speaking at rallies and meetings?

    I wasn't claiming he was permanently talking at rallies and meetings, I imagine he slept and other things but video evidence of him not being at a rally or a meeting during the EU referendum doesn't prove he didn't attend one any more than video evidence of him not being at a rally or meeting during the election campaign proves he didn't attend one.
    Go do your research.
    I accepted your point, like the election he was certainly not at rallies and meetings at different times, with video evidence proof of it I imagine....

    I just don't accept your overall point that is proof that he didn't speak at rallies and meetings, for one he certainly did, for two filming him not doing so is not actually the equivalent of him not doing so. It only proves he wasn't at those moments.
    I never said he didn't speak at all. You are desperately spinning. He was asked to do more, much more, to be involved in a high energy campaign, to do a lot more with Alan Johnson, and he declined.

    It was caught in the Vice documentary, where they had a meeting to arrange all this and it was clear Jezza wasn't going to do it.

    And then you were moaning that why were the Remain media not giving more airtime to Jezza pitch, why concentrate on Johnson...its because Labour tried to get Jezza to be fully involved and he wouldn't do it.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,029

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    Checked the figures. Non eu trade is 33% of GDP for the UK and 35% for the EU as a whole So not a huge difference. Intra EU trade much higher for eurozone countries thanks to the EU breaking down barriers Brexit Britain wants to reinstate.

    Source: DG Trade statistical guide June 2018 p22

    No intra-EU trade is much higher for Eurozone nations for them physically bordering each other in a way we don't. For many EU nations trade going the distance of Edinburgh to London would class as INTRA-EU but it doesn't for us.
    The point is, less UK EU trade simply reflects our lower trade overall. It isn't because the EU is protectionist and holding us back. The opposite in fact.
    So we have a free trade agreement with the USA? Or China? Or Japan? In fact name one non-European nation with an economy larger than ours that we have a free trade agreement with.

    Or are you claiming free trade agreements don't matter, in which case why does our EU membership matter?

    Seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it.
    The EU is not a free trade agreement. It’s an integrated internal market.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Barnesian said:

    Barnesian said:

    PClipp said:

    Imagine if all those people marching in London today calling for a second referendum had only got off their arses and marched up to voters' front doors at the time of the first referendum and sold their pro-EU message......

    yeah, you're right. It would have been nearer to 55:45 remain.

    Perhaps they were not inspired by the Conservative leadership of the Remain campaign. I certainly wasn`t.
    Enjoy your day in the sun in London....
    Just leaving home with six neighbours for the #peoplesvotemarch. I suspect it will be big.

    Depends what you define as big,

    Tens of thousands of people are expected to descend on Westminster for an anti-Brexit demonstration on Saturday

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/22/peoples-vote-march-against-brexit-london-thousands-expected

    Is that big?
    Not big enough. It needs to be 100,000+.

    I'm not into expectation management.
    Will it match the 'Brexit and Betrayal' Leave rally though, also in London today?

    https://twitter.com/gerardbattenmep/status/1008973459345608704

    Anyone going to both?

    "Brexit and Betrayal"? Shouldn't hebe celebrating success on the second anniversary of independence day?
    Quite impressive that the government have managed to upset both sides.
    TMay is optimizing for keeping both sides in her cabinet, which in fairness is going better than you'd expect.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,390
    Another Republican says vote Democrat in the midterms:
    http://thehill.com/homenews/393728-george-will-argues-for-voting-against-the-gop-in-midterms

    On its own, of little significance, but it’s just possible the ‘vote against Trump’s enablers’ call will get som traction.
  • Options
    edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,141


    Thankfully, not in my enclosure.

    Not a lot of disturbances there nowadays, not since the Queen Mother passed away
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    Checked the figures. Non eu trade is 33% of GDP for the UK and 35% for the EU as a whole So not a huge difference. Intra EU trade much higher for eurozone countries thanks to the EU breaking down barriers Brexit Britain wants to reinstate.

    Source: DG Trade statistical guide June 2018 p22

    No intra-EU trade is much higher for Eurozone nations for them physically bordering each other in a way we don't. For many EU nations trade going the distance of Edinburgh to London would class as INTRA-EU but it doesn't for us.
    The point is, less UK EU trade simply reflects our lower trade overall. It isn't because the EU is protectionist and holding us back. The opposite in fact.
    So we have a free trade agreement with the USA? Or China? Or Japan? In fact name one non-European nation with an economy larger than ours that we have a free trade agreement with.

    Or are you claiming free trade agreements don't matter, in which case why does our EU membership matter?

    Seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it.
    The EU is not a free trade agreement. It’s an integrated internal market.
    Yet our proportion of trade with the EU has shrank year on year relative to the rest of the world. Funny that. Anyway do free trade agreements matter or not in your eyes?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,544

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    Checked the figures. Non eu trade is 33% of GDP for the UK and 35% for the EU as a whole So not a huge difference. Intra EU trade much higher for eurozone countries thanks to the EU breaking down barriers Brexit Britain wants to reinstate.

    Source: DG Trade statistical guide June 2018 p22

    No intra-EU trade is much higher for Eurozone nations for them physically bordering each other in a way we don't. For many EU nations trade going the distance of Edinburgh to London would class as INTRA-EU but it doesn't for us.
    The point is, less UK EU trade simply reflects our lower trade overall. It isn't because the EU is protectionist and holding us back. The opposite in fact.
    So we have a free trade agreement with the USA? Or China? Or Japan? In fact name one non-European nation with an economy larger than ours that we have a free trade agreement with.

    Or are you claiming free trade agreements don't matter, in which case why does our EU membership matter?

    Seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it.
    We have agreed an FTA with Japan (via the EU), awaiting sign off, as well as a good percentage of the RoW. The USA and China are the obvious big exceptions, but the former seems more keen on trade wars than agreements at present.

    We will of course dropout of the EU FTA's shortly.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,855

    Sandpit said:

    At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.

    Which event should I go to to avoid elitists?
    Ascot.

    Judging by the sound and style of the majority of the people on my train, it’s popular with the masses too.
    Horrible people. I live in Windsor and Ascot week is dreaded. Imagine the most obnoxious drunken tw*ts from across the social spectrum descending upon one town and you'll get an idea. On Thursday I was abused by one 'racegoer' as I was walking home. A few years ago one attempted to rob me. Awful occasion. Awful drunken, nasty yobs.
    Yes, unfortunately it does attract a few chavs. There is also quite a police presence here too.

    Thankfully, not in my enclosure.
    It does seem like the various big race festivals have now become big chav magnets.
    One thing that racecourses are really good at is segregating attendees, with separate entrances and facilities. They never see each other all day until they get to the station in the evening.

    AIUI the old “Silver Ring” chav zone at Ascot has now been moved from the 4 furlong pole next to the grandstand, across the track into the middle. They’ll barely see a horse all day.
    Surprised the Gruardian haven't been all over this setup...poor doors are totally unacceptable ;-)
    Ha, they’d probably be writing about the people they can see across the track - from their nice seat in a grandstand hospitality box!
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,029

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    Checked the figures. Non eu trade is 33% of GDP for the UK and 35% for the EU as a whole So not a huge difference. Intra EU trade much higher for eurozone countries thanks to the EU breaking down barriers Brexit Britain wants to reinstate.

    Source: DG Trade statistical guide June 2018 p22

    No intra-EU trade is much higher for Eurozone nations for them physically bordering each other in a way we don't. For many EU nations trade going the distance of Edinburgh to London would class as INTRA-EU but it doesn't for us.
    The point is, less UK EU trade simply reflects our lower trade overall. It isn't because the EU is protectionist and holding us back. The opposite in fact.
    So we have a free trade agreement with the USA? Or China? Or Japan? In fact name one non-European nation with an economy larger than ours that we have a free trade agreement with.

    Or are you claiming free trade agreements don't matter, in which case why does our EU membership matter?

    Seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it.
    The EU is not a free trade agreement. It’s an integrated internal market.
    Yet our proportion of trade with the EU has shrank year on year relative to the rest of the world. Funny that. Anyway do free trade agreements matter or not in your eyes?
    They matter, but multilateral agreements are much better if the aim is to increase overall trade
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,925
    Sandpit said:

    At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.

    Which event should I go to to avoid elitists?
    Ascot.

    Judging by the sound and style of the majority of the people on my train, it’s popular with the masses too.
    Horrible people. I live in Windsor and Ascot week is dreaded. Imagine the most obnoxious drunken tw*ts from across the social spectrum descending upon one town and you'll get an idea. On Thursday I was abused by one 'racegoer' as I was walking home. A few years ago one attempted to rob me. Awful occasion. Awful drunken, nasty yobs.
    Yes, unfortunately it does attract a few chavs. There is also quite a police presence here too.

    Thankfully, not in my enclosure.
    It does seem like the various big race festivals have now become big chav magnets.
    One thing that racecourses are really good at is segregating attendees, with separate entrances and facilities. They never see each other all day until they get to the station in the evening.

    AIUI the old “Silver Ring” chav zone at Ascot has now been moved from the 4 furlong pole next to the grandstand, across the track into the middle. They’ll barely see a horse all day, let alone those who paid good money for grandstand tickets or the Royal Enclosure.
    We’re on an organised ‘welcome’ trip to Chelmsford City races in August. First time I’ve been for ages and I don’t think my wife’s ever been. We used to go to the dogs now and then when there was a track near where we lived.
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    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840


    You obviously didn't watch the Vice special on Jezza....he declined / made himself unavailable numerous times.
    You obviously didn't see it. They followed him around for months and it was shown he turned down opportunities to speak at rallies / events, and basically made it nearly impossible to get him to do anything.
    Keep trying, you might even convince yourself. They caught his team on camera doing exactly the opposite.
    They caught him on camera doing the opposite to speaking at rallies and meetings?

    I wasn't claiming he was permanently talking at rallies and meetings, I imagine he slept and other things but video evidence of him not being at a rally or a meeting during the EU referendum doesn't prove he didn't attend one any more than video evidence of him not being at a rally or meeting during the election campaign proves he didn't attend one.
    Go do your research.
    I accepted your point, like the election he was certainly not at rallies and meetings at different times, with video evidence proof of it I imagine....

    I just don't accept your overall point that is proof that he didn't speak at rallies and meetings, for one he certainly did, for two filming him not doing so is not actually the equivalent of him not doing so. It only proves he wasn't at those moments.
    I never said he didn't speak at all. You are desperately spinning. He was asked to do more, much more, to be involved in a high energy campaign, to do a lot more with Alan Johnson, and he declined.

    It was caught in the Vice documentary, where they had a meeting to arrange all this and it was clear Jezza wasn't going to do it.

    And then you were moaning that why were the Remain media not giving more airtime to Jezza pitch, why concentrate on Johnson...its because Labour tried to get Jezza to be fully involved and he wouldn't do it.
    To be fair you weren't making it exactly clear what you were getting at. He didn't attach himself to any of the official campaigns after the experience in Scotland, whilst getting a remain vote is/was important getting a future Labour government is the bigger consideration.

    I have far bigger complaints about the media if I just wanted to moan about them, I just feel when they are assigning blame they never seem to think about their own part, usually happy to acknowledge the influence of the Daily Mail though.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,029
    "A French woman visiting Canada was detained in the US for 2 weeks after accidentally crossing the border while jogging"

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/french-woman-visiting-canada-detained-in-u-s-crossing-border-while-jogging-2018-6
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,029
    edited June 2018
    Not sure what Trump is trying to say here.
    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1010486772541816834
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,161

    Not sure what Trump is trying to say here.
    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1010486772541816834

    Something to do with the world cup and VAR?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,544

    "A French woman visiting Canada was detained in the US for 2 weeks after accidentally crossing the border while jogging"

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/french-woman-visiting-canada-detained-in-u-s-crossing-border-while-jogging-2018-6

    Just as well she didnt have her kids with her!
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    Checked the figures. Non eu trade is 33% of GDP for the UK and 35% for the EU as a whole So not a huge difference. Intra EU trade much higher for eurozone countries thanks to the EU breaking down barriers Brexit Britain wants to reinstate.

    Source: DG Trade statistical guide June 2018 p22

    No intra-EU trade is much higher for Eurozone nations for them physically bordering each other in a way we don't. For many EU nations trade going the distance of Edinburgh to London would class as INTRA-EU but it doesn't for us.
    The point is, less UK EU trade simply reflects our lower trade overall. It isn't because the EU is protectionist and holding us back. The opposite in fact.
    So we have a free trade agreement with the USA? Or China? Or Japan? In fact name one non-European nation with an economy larger than ours that we have a free trade agreement with.

    Or are you claiming free trade agreements don't matter, in which case why does our EU membership matter?

    Seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it.
    The EU is not a free trade agreement. It’s an integrated internal market.
    Yet our proportion of trade with the EU has shrank year on year relative to the rest of the world. Funny that. Anyway do free trade agreements matter or not in your eyes?
    They matter, but multilateral agreements are much better if the aim is to increase overall trade
    So how many non-European nations with an economy larger than ours has the EU reached a multilateral agreement with?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,970
    Mr. Borough, no, he's clearly referring to the oil exploitation of the Russian region Wich Heynt, which is now full of rigs.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,029

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    Checked the figures. Non eu trade is 33% of GDP for the UK and 35% for the EU as a whole So not a huge difference. Intra EU trade much higher for eurozone countries thanks to the EU breaking down barriers Brexit Britain wants to reinstate.

    Source: DG Trade statistical guide June 2018 p22

    No intra-EU trade is much higher for Eurozone nations for them physically bordering each other in a way we don't. For many EU nations trade going the distance of Edinburgh to London would class as INTRA-EU but it doesn't for us.
    The point is, less UK EU trade simply reflects our lower trade overall. It isn't because the EU is protectionist and holding us back. The opposite in fact.
    So we have a free trade agreement with the USA? Or China? Or Japan? In fact name one non-European nation with an economy larger than ours that we have a free trade agreement with.

    Or are you claiming free trade agreements don't matter, in which case why does our EU membership matter?

    Seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it.
    The EU is not a free trade agreement. It’s an integrated internal market.
    Yet our proportion of trade with the EU has shrank year on year relative to the rest of the world. Funny that. Anyway do free trade agreements matter or not in your eyes?
    They matter, but multilateral agreements are much better if the aim is to increase overall trade
    So how many non-European nations with an economy larger than ours has the EU reached a multilateral agreement with?
    All of them. It's called the WTO.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    Checked the figures. Non eu trade is 33% of GDP for the UK and 35% for the EU as a whole So not a huge difference. Intra EU trade much higher for eurozone countries thanks to the EU breaking down barriers Brexit Britain wants to reinstate.

    Source: DG Trade statistical guide June 2018 p22

    No intra-EU trade is much higher for Eurozone nations for them physically bordering each other in a way we don't. For many EU nations trade going the distance of Edinburgh to London would class as INTRA-EU but it doesn't for us.
    The point is, less UK EU trade simply reflects our lower trade overall. It isn't because the EU is protectionist and holding us back. The opposite in fact.
    So we have a free trade agreement with the USA? Or China? Or Japan? In fact name one non-European nation with an economy larger than ours that we have a free trade agreement with.

    Or are you claiming free trade agreements don't matter, in which case why does our EU membership matter?

    Seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it.
    The EU is not a free trade agreement. It’s an integrated internal market.
    Yet our proportion of trade with the EU has shrank year on year relative to the rest of the world. Funny that. Anyway do free trade agreements matter or not in your eyes?
    They matter, but multilateral agreements are much better if the aim is to increase overall trade
    So how many non-European nations with an economy larger than ours has the EU reached a multilateral agreement with?
    All of them. It's called the WTO.
    So WTO terms are good enough?
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,951
    Nigelb said:

    Another Republican says vote Democrat in the midterms:
    http://thehill.com/homenews/393728-george-will-argues-for-voting-against-the-gop-in-midterms

    On its own, of little significance, but it’s just possible the ‘vote against Trump’s enablers’ call will get som traction.

    Of the last 10 midterms in a President's first term, the President's party has lost seats in 9 of them and control of at least one chamber of Congress in 4 of them so he is really just going with the tide which will be anti GOP in November anyway and Trump or no Trump that would likely still be the case
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    A very good article . However, he understates the extent of grade inflation because the analysis only begins with the early 1990s. By that thime there was already a great deal of inflation built into the system when compared to the 60s and 70s .In that earlier period circa 60% of students graduated with a 2.2 and Third class degrees were much common than Firsts.At many Russell Group universities , discursive subjects such as English - History - Politics - Philosophy et al saw no Firsts awarded in most academic years.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,855
    edited June 2018

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    Checked the figures. Non eu trade is 33% of GDP for the UK and 35% for the EU as a whole So not a huge difference. Intra EU trade much higher for eurozone countries thanks to the EU breaking down barriers Brexit Britain wants to reinstate.

    Source: DG Trade statistical guide June 2018 p22

    No intra-EU trade is much higher for Eurozone nations for them physically bordering each other in a way we don't. For many EU nations trade going the distance of Edinburgh to London would class as INTRA-EU but it doesn't for us.
    The point is, less UK EU trade simply reflects our lower trade overall. It isn't because the EU is protectionist and holding us back. The opposite in fact.
    So we have a free trade agreement with the USA? Or China? Or Japan? In fact name one non-European nation with an economy larger than ours that we have a free trade agreement with.

    Or are you claiming free trade agreements don't matter, in which case why does our EU membership matter?

    Seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it.
    The EU is not a free trade agreement. It’s an integrated internal market.
    Yet our proportion of trade with the EU has shrank year on year relative to the rest of the world. Funny that. Anyway do free trade agreements matter or not in your eyes?
    They matter, but multilateral agreements are much better if the aim is to increase overall trade
    So how many non-European nations with an economy larger than ours has the EU reached a multilateral agreement with?
    All of them. It's called the WTO.
    Fantastic! So let’s take up our seat at the WTO and argue for free trade on a global scale - as opposed to the protectionist tariff regime of the EU.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300


    There are lots of flights to North African holiday destinations and relatively cheap offers to South Africa. I do find the figure about the beach surprising, though, although I don’t think beach/sun holidays are as popular with the non-Europeans who have settled here as with European-type residents.

    Before the terrorists attacks in North Africa, places like Tunisia and Egypt were very popular as much cheaper than Spain or Portugal. A quick google shows 1.5 million Brits went on vacation to Egypt in 2010.
    The Gulf states are popular too now, and add in people born in Africa, but probably the biggest factor that may skew the results through poor sampling is muslims going to Mecca (Hajj).
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,029

    FF43 said:

    FF43 said:



    Checked the figures. Non eu trade is 33% of GDP for the UK and 35% for the EU as a whole So not a huge difference. Intra EU trade much higher for eurozone countries thanks to the EU breaking down barriers Brexit Britain wants to reinstate.

    Source: DG Trade statistical guide June 2018 p22

    No intra-EU trade is much higher for Eurozone nations for them physically bordering each other in a way we don't. For many EU nations trade going the distance of Edinburgh to London would class as INTRA-EU but it doesn't for us.
    The point is, less UK EU trade simply reflects our lower trade overall. It isn't because the EU is protectionist and holding us back. The opposite in fact.
    So we have a free trade agreement with the USA? Or China? Or Japan? In fact name one non-European nation with an economy larger than ours that we have a free trade agreement with.

    Or are you claiming free trade agreements don't matter, in which case why does our EU membership matter?

    Seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it.
    The EU is not a free trade agreement. It’s an integrated internal market.
    Yet our proportion of trade with the EU has shrank year on year relative to the rest of the world. Funny that. Anyway do free trade agreements matter or not in your eyes?
    They matter, but multilateral agreements are much better if the aim is to increase overall trade
    So how many non-European nations with an economy larger than ours has the EU reached a multilateral agreement with?
    All of them. It's called the WTO.
    So WTO terms are good enough?
    They're progress compared with what went before but they apply between political entities, not within them. WTO rules are no more appropriate for trade between England and France than they are for trade between England and Scotland.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,970
    Mr. Glenn, the UK* and France. England doesn't make trade deals separately from Scotland, nor vice versa.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,390
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Another Republican says vote Democrat in the midterms:
    http://thehill.com/homenews/393728-george-will-argues-for-voting-against-the-gop-in-midterms

    On its own, of little significance, but it’s just possible the ‘vote against Trump’s enablers’ call will get som traction.

    Of the last 10 midterms in a President's first term, the President's party has lost seats in 9 of them and control of at least one chamber of Congress in 4 of them so he is really just going with the tide which will be anti GOP in November anyway and Trump or no Trump that would likely still be the case
    Unusual for retiring Congressmen to be making the same argument, though...
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/i-wasnt-trump-enough-in-the-age-of-trump-so-i-lost/2018/06/22/56949d5a-7653-11e8-9780-b1dd6a09b549_story.html

    The Republican Party is going through an identity crisis. We need to decide who we are. I believe we are meant to be the party of individual freedom, and I believe in the building blocks of what will get you there — ranging from limited government, taxes and spending to open markets and free trade.

    I have all the merit badges and hard-fought votes to demonstrate my allegiance to those ideals. But voters in this election did not value this as much as they did fidelity to our president. In fact, on election night, my opponent proclaimed in her victory speech that “we are the party of Donald J. Trump.”...
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,970
    F1: rain possible for both qualifying and the race. Would certainly be a good thing if track concerns are accurate.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,029

    Mr. Glenn, the UK* and France. England doesn't make trade deals separately from Scotland, nor vice versa.

    Neither does the UK make trade deals so it's a moot point. ;)
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,390

    F1: rain possible for both qualifying and the race. Would certainly be a good thing if track concerns are accurate.

    They really ought to hold preseason testing at Paul Richard next year - they could then try out which of the 180 odd possible layouts works best for F1....

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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Sandpit said:

    At Aldershot station this morning: one lonely middle aged guy wearing an EU t-shirt with his resigned wife; twenty people all dressed up in suits and fascinators going to Royal Ascot.

    Which event should I go to to avoid elitists?
    Ascot.

    Judging by the sound and style of the majority of the people on my train, it’s popular with the masses too.
    Horrible people. I live in Windsor and Ascot week is dreaded. Imagine the most obnoxious drunken tw*ts from across the social spectrum descending upon one town and you'll get an idea. On Thursday I was abused by one 'racegoer' as I was walking home. A few years ago one attempted to rob me. Awful occasion. Awful drunken, nasty yobs.
    Yes, unfortunately it does attract a few chavs. There is also quite a police presence here too.

    Thankfully, not in my enclosure.
    It does seem like the various big race festivals have now become big chav magnets.
    One thing that racecourses are really good at is segregating attendees, with separate entrances and facilities. They never see each other all day until they get to the station in the evening.

    AIUI the old “Silver Ring” chav zone at Ascot has now been moved from the 4 furlong pole next to the grandstand, across the track into the middle. They’ll barely see a horse all day, let alone those who paid good money for grandstand tickets or the Royal Enclosure.
    We’re on an organised ‘welcome’ trip to Chelmsford City races in August. First time I’ve been for ages and I don’t think my wife’s ever been. We used to go to the dogs now and then when there was a track near where we lived.
    Good luck but I fear they'll try to bore you with a lot of uninteresting behind-the-scenes detail about stabling, drug testing and so on. The appeal of racing, indeed most sport, is that it is pretty obvious what is happening and that every now and then, you will see something jaw-dropping as God sets foot on a racecourse, football pitch or running track.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    Not sure what Trump is trying to say here.
    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1010486772541816834

    Russia is such a surveillance society, they already know where all the witches are?
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,970
    Mr. B, it does seem remarkable that with so many configurations they managed to pick a bad one.
This discussion has been closed.