To put claims of 100,000 at the march there's approximately a million people from EU countries who live in London:
' Of the 8.88 million people living in London at the time of the most recent UK estimates, 3.32 million (37%) were born outside of the United Kingdom. Of these, approximately a third were born within European Union countries, while the other two thirds were born outside of the European Union. '
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
My business is consolidating operations in Amsterdam. There will be no PR release, it is just happening.
This is also happening with several clients.
Not with a bang, but with a whimper. The tide of mediocrity comes in slowly.
Thanks DavidL, and all the gang.
I've seen a bit of movement. Nobody is upping sticks and leaving because of Brexit, but they are looking for European based suppliers and not starting projects in the UK.
Have the police or anybody not involved in organizing the march, given an estimate of the number of people? Not that is matters that much, I'm just curios.
I do not doubt for a moment that Brexit has coursed serious distress to some people, (my Facebook feed will attest to that) and if I could find ways of given reassurance, condolence or even workable compromise I would.
I don't think there is as wide spreed upset as it may at first appear: Anti Brexiters, are undoubtedly very highly motivated, indaviduales, and i try to respect that. They also include many prominent positions in society: The arch Bishop of Canntabrey, Governor of the Bank of England, Heads of international businesses, celebrates, not to mention politicians, Journalists (and commentators on PB!)
I would suggest that, there tern out to this protest shoes that it is not even close to the wide spread opposition to government policy demonstrated in the 'Stop the War' march, or the anti fox hunting ban march. May be the spirit of marching is not what it was 15 years ago? I don't know but with Facebook I would have thought that this would be easier to organise now.
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
(The other day, a rally against Erdogan before the upcoming election. Organisers say 2.5 million people; that seems unlikely, but it's a lot. The next few weeks in Turkey are going to be very interesting - and very worrying)
Erdogan looks to be physically struggling a bit too. At some point events will surely overtake him.
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
My business is consolidating operations in Amsterdam. There will be no PR release, it is just happening.
This is also happening with several clients.
Not with a bang, but with a whimper. The tide of mediocrity comes in slowly.
Thanks DavidL, and all the gang.
On a ferry to Amsterdam from Newcastle as we speak. Daughter finished her Erasmus year in Groningen and needs her stuff brought home.
(The other day, a rally against Erdogan before the upcoming election. Organisers say 2.5 million people; that seems unlikely, but it's a lot. The next few weeks in Turkey are going to be very interesting - and very worrying)
Erdogan looks to be physically struggling a bit too. At some point events will surely overtake him.
The same was said for a very long time about Mugabe.
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
In fairness we didn’t have the OBR seeking to reclaim the description of the dismal science for most of your adult life. But yes, the underlying strength of our economy is being consistently underestimated
Most Tories must be praying that the old Marxist Jezza doesn't fall under a bus. What an even vaguely pro-business Labour leader could do to them now is truly frightening.
In our topsy turvy world we may well have Business backing Jezza and John at the next election!
Vince and Jo maybe, even Brexit will not see business back Marxists like Corbyn and McDonnell
Labour would have to come up with something pretty bad for it to be worse for business than Brexit.
At least Brexit might offer the chance for reduced regulations for business, Corbynism just means higher taxes and more strikes
Regulations are necessary for business to run. In my experience EU regulations are no worse than, and generally rather clearer than regulations outside the EU. Higher taxes and more strikes are undesirable, but Brexit is worse. And my guess is that the cost of bringing a load of regulatory work back to the UK from the EU will exceed the cost of EU membership, so taxes will be going up anyway.
The Tories raised £25 million at the last general election, £1.5 million was their biggest donation from JCB.
Labour raised £9.5 million over £1 million of which came from the Unite Union. The LDs raised £4 million and the largest individual donation of £300 000 to the LDs from an entrepreneur exceeded the largest individual donation of £60 000 that Labour got. Large corporations and businesspeople won't touch Corbyn Labour with a barge pole whereas they were queuing up to open their chequebooks to Blair and Brown and New Labour. At the 2005 general election New Labour had over £13 million of donations
(The other day, a rally against Erdogan before the upcoming election. Organisers say 2.5 million people; that seems unlikely, but it's a lot. The next few weeks in Turkey are going to be very interesting - and very worrying)
Erdogan looks to be physically struggling a bit too. At some point events will surely overtake him.
That *may* be the case, but there is always the concern that the changes he has wrought to Turkey and its constitution may mean that his replacement is worse.
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
My business is consolidating operations in Amsterdam. There will be no PR release, it is just happening.
This is also happening with several clients.
Not with a bang, but with a whimper. The tide of mediocrity comes in slowly.
Thanks DavidL, and all the gang.
I've seen a bit of movement. Nobody is upping sticks and leaving because of Brexit, but they are looking for European based suppliers and not starting projects in the UK.
There's changes here and there and gains and losses:
' An Irish company will set up a Belfast base and create 124 jobs to "future-proof" the UK part of its business against a hard Brexit.
Eirtech Aviation Services is a manufacturing and aircraft repair firm headquartered in Shannon, County Clare.
It is the second company from the Republic of Ireland to recently expand north ahead of the UK's withdrawal from the European Union.
In May, IT firm Teamwork.com said it would hire 100 staff in Belfast. '
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
In fairness we didn’t have the OBR seeking to reclaim the description of the dismal science for most of your adult life. But yes, the underlying strength of our economy is being consistently underestimated
Sadly, 'the underlying strength of our economy' can be proved a mirage or vanish into dust. Never put too much faith in it politically. Gordon and his cheerleaders where similarly vainglorious all those years ago.
The economic record is no less staggering. Enthusiasts are beginning to talk of a British miracle, as the UK notches up low inflation, low unemployment and low interest rates, accompanied by high growth - all the envy of the G7 industrialised nations. While previous Labour governments were ousted amid economic disarray, this one has weathered the last five years better than most of Europe and even the US.
BBC Parliament should be compulsory viewing for Remainers demanding another referendum.
Similarly with Ireland. IMHO, the best way forward for those two communities would be to find a way of living together in mutual tolerance & respect. If a large majority of NI and RoI wanted to come together, that would be a cause of rejoicing, surely, not a reason for mourning the break-up of the UK.
Good evening, everybody.
That hasn’t happened for over a century, since Partition, which was precisely because the immigrant community, or to be more accurate, it’s descendants refused to consider living in a society they considered anethema. I suppose that just possible, now that RoI isn’t quite the theocracy it was under De Valera, that the next generation of Protestants might be prepared to consider some form of federation.
And yes I know De Valera’s long dead, but Irish memories, on both sides, tend to be long.
Ignoring Brexit for a moment I do hope that at some point in the not too distant future there is a majority in favour of reunification. As you say Eire is transformed politically and socially from what it was a few decades ago and I would hope that the Irish Government would be able to come up with the sorts of guarantees that would reassure most of the Protestant population they had nothing to fear.
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
In fairness we didn’t have the OBR seeking to reclaim the description of the dismal science for most of your adult life. But yes, the underlying strength of our economy is being consistently underestimated
True but pre-Brexit under Osborne the OBR was overestimating the public finances. Under Brown the public finances were consistently and often dramatically overestimated.
When was the last time our economy was consistently underestimated?
Most Tories must be praying that the old Marxist Jezza doesn't fall under a bus. What an even vaguely pro-business Labour leader could do to them now is truly frightening.
In our topsy turvy world we may well have Business backing Jezza and John at the next election!
Vince and Jo maybe, even Brexit will not see business back Marxists like Corbyn and McDonnell
Labour would have to come up with something pretty bad for it to be worse for business than Brexit.
At least Brexit might offer the chance for reduced regulations for business, Corbynism just means higher taxes and more strikes
Agreed! I which that the the government, the brexit negotiators or better still the Prime Minister were steadily announcing which bits of EU regulations will go the day we leave, but instead Her first/early statements that I remember where that all EU regulations would be transferred in to UK law so there would be no change, with the small caveat that we may get rid of some latter.
I do think it is worth noting that the UK regulatory althoratys (and government) would typically interpret and in force the rules in the most draconian way possible, especially compared to nations like the Netherlands.
I think there is/was a clash of cultures, in the UK less rules but tightly unforced, Europe rules for lots of things but only in-force where required. the UK in the EU meant we got the worst of both woulds!!! and its silly to blames the EU for this.
If we leave but only get rid of a token amount of the regulations the we risk being in the same disadvantageous position for a protracted period of time. (that could get a lot worse is Corben becomes PM)
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
In fairness we didn’t have the OBR seeking to reclaim the description of the dismal science for most of your adult life. But yes, the underlying strength of our economy is being consistently underestimated
True but pre-Brexit under Osborne the OBR was overestimating the public finances. Under Brown the public finances were consistently and often dramatically overestimated.
When was the last time our economy was consistently underestimated?
Not sure. Have the establishment lost a referendum before?
Most Tories must be praying that the old Marxist Jezza doesn't fall under a bus. What an even vaguely pro-business Labour leader could do to them now is truly frightening.
In our topsy turvy world we may well have Business backing Jezza and John at the next election!
Vince and Jo maybe, even Brexit will not see business back Marxists like Corbyn and McDonnell
Labour would have to come up with something pretty bad for it to be worse for business than Brexit.
At least Brexit might offer the chance for reduced regulations for business, Corbynism just means higher taxes and more strikes
Agreed! I which that the the government, the brexit negotiators or better still the Prime Minister were steadily announcing which bits of EU regulations will go the day we leave, but instead Her first/early statements that I remember where that all EU regulations would be transferred in to UK law so there would be no change, with the small caveat that we may get rid of some latter.
I do think it is worth noting that the UK regulatory althoratys (and government) would typically interpret and in force the rules in the most draconian way possible, especially compared to nations like the Netherlands.
I think there is/was a clash of cultures, in the UK less rules but tightly unforced, Europe rules for lots of things but only in-force where required. the UK in the EU meant we got the worst of both woulds!!! and its silly to blames the EU for this.
If we leave but only get rid of a token amount of the regulations the we risk being in the same disadvantageous position for a protracted period of time. (that could get a lot worse is Corben becomes PM)
Certainly Corbyn will keep all the regulations but add more strikes and higher taxes all while keeping the UK out of the single market, the worst possible outcome for business
100,000 turnout is not bad. Much better than Brexiters could manage, given most of them are morbidly obese.
LOL. The voice of bitter defeat. I am enjoying your pain.
Of course you are. You’re a depraved non-entity. Sadism is all you have.
Well that and the result he wanted in the biggest vote we have ever had.
Lies and stupidity are often very popular, as we see from history and indeed from light entertainment formats.
Perhaps we should ban democracy and X Factor phone votes?
Another person who doesn’t understand democracy.
I seem to be getting a constant stream of object lessons in "not understanding democracy" -from Remainers who want another roll of the Referendum dice.
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
In fairness we didn’t have the OBR seeking to reclaim the description of the dismal science for most of your adult life. But yes, the underlying strength of our economy is being consistently underestimated
Sadly, 'the underlying strength of our economy' can be proved a mirage or vanish into dust. Never put too much faith in it politically. Gordon and his cheerleaders where similarly vainglorious all those years ago.
The economic record is no less staggering. Enthusiasts are beginning to talk of a British miracle, as the UK notches up low inflation, low unemployment and low interest rates, accompanied by high growth - all the envy of the G7 industrialised nations. While previous Labour governments were ousted amid economic disarray, this one has weathered the last five years better than most of Europe and even the US.
True but our outperformance at that time was based on debt, both public (on and off the books) and private. Now it is based on us having strength in services and IT which are growing much more rapidly than goods. Things could still go wrong, there is a lot of problems needing dealt with, but I am optimistic.
Never mind, Remainers, always remember the old saying:
One door closes … another one shuts.
I fear you may be right. I didn’t go on the march; not up to very long walks, sadly, but I sincerely hope we won’t have to continue unravelling everything, especially all the commercial arrangements which had been sewn together over the pst 40 years. However, that’s hope, not expectation. I expect that we will leave, and I can only hope (again) that it’s not as messy as appears at the moment to be probable.
One thought. I don’t think, that if the vote had gone the other way, we’d have had the triumphalism from Remainers that we’re seeing from many Leavers. I suspect it there would have been a huge sigh of relief, with a fear that we’ve have to go through it all again before long, given some of the fanatic Leavers. However, we could have Parliament dealing with the problems of the country, rather than the poisonous situation (on all sides) we appear to have now.
Most Tories must be praying that the old Marxist Jezza doesn't fall under a bus. What an even vaguely pro-business Labour leader could do to them now is truly frightening.
In our topsy turvy world we may well have Business backing Jezza and John at the next election!
Vince and Jo maybe, even Brexit will not see business back Marxists like Corbyn and McDonnell
Labour would have to come up with something pretty bad for it to be worse for business than Brexit.
At least Brexit might offer the chance for reduced regulations for business, Corbynism just means higher taxes and more strikes
Agreed! I which that the the government, the brexit negotiators or better still the Prime Minister were steadily announcing which bits of EU regulations will go the day we leave, but instead Her first/early statements that I remember where that all EU regulations would be transferred in to UK law so there would be no change, with the small caveat that we may get rid of some latter.
I do think it is worth noting that the UK regulatory althoratys (and government) would typically interpret and in force the rules in the most draconian way possible, especially compared to nations like the Netherlands.
I think there is/was a clash of cultures, in the UK less rules but tightly unforced, Europe rules for lots of things but only in-force where required. the UK in the EU meant we got the worst of both woulds!!! and its silly to blames the EU for this.
If we leave but only get rid of a token amount of the regulations the we risk being in the same disadvantageous position for a protracted period of time. (that could get a lot worse is Corben becomes PM)
I do wonder if European governments were aware of how much more stringently regulations can be applied in this country and pushed for harder rules knowing they would be enforced less in their own countries.
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
In fairness we didn’t have the OBR seeking to reclaim the description of the dismal science for most of your adult life. But yes, the underlying strength of our economy is being consistently underestimated
True but pre-Brexit under Osborne the OBR was overestimating the public finances. Under Brown the public finances were consistently and often dramatically overestimated.
When was the last time our economy was consistently underestimated?
When was the last time that everyone involved in compiling the statistics was utterly opposed to the direction the government was taking, and determined to see every dataset in the most negative light possible?
Most Tories must be praying that the old Marxist Jezza doesn't fall under a bus. What an even vaguely pro-business Labour leader could do to them now is truly frightening.
In our topsy turvy world we may well have Business backing Jezza and John at the next election!
Vince and Jo maybe, even Brexit will not see business back Marxists like Corbyn and McDonnell
Labour would have to come up with something pretty bad for it to be worse for business than Brexit.
At least Brexit might offer the chance for reduced regulations for business, Corbynism just means higher taxes and more strikes
Agreed! I which that the the government, the brexit negotiators or better still the Prime Minister were steadily announcing which bits of EU regulations will go the day we leave, but instead Her first/early statements that I remember where that all EU regulations would be transferred in to UK law so there would be no change, with the small caveat that we may get rid of some latter.
I do think it is worth noting that the UK regulatory althoratys (and government) would typically interpret and in force the rules in the most draconian way possible, especially compared to nations like the Netherlands.
I think there is/was a clash of cultures, in the UK less rules but tightly unforced, Europe rules for lots of things but only in-force where required. the UK in the EU meant we got the worst of both woulds!!! and its silly to blames the EU for this.
If we leave but only get rid of a token amount of the regulations the we risk being in the same disadvantageous position for a protracted period of time. (that could get a lot worse is Corben becomes PM)
Good points though I think its sensible to blame the UK's membership of the EU for it. Our Common Law legal system is very different to their Napoleonic one and trying to mash the two together hasn't worked.
Its sensible to maintain the same rules from day 1 but retain the option to very it from day 2 onwards.
It’s finally dawning on the cult that Jeremy Corbyn can think of many better places to be today, than be at an anti-Brexit march in London.
The cult will convince themselves some nonsense that it was a scheduling issue and his trip to Jordan was books months ago yadda yadda yadda. AS surprising as boris having a meeting abroad when the Heathrow vote comes around.
Interesting view from Vernon Bogdanor on the Parliament channel.
He pointed out that it was up to a parliament with a Remain majority to implement Leave, because electoral sovereignty over-rules parliamentary sovereignty.
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
In fairness we didn’t have the OBR seeking to reclaim the description of the dismal science for most of your adult life. But yes, the underlying strength of our economy is being consistently underestimated
True but pre-Brexit under Osborne the OBR was overestimating the public finances. Under Brown the public finances were consistently and often dramatically overestimated.
When was the last time our economy was consistently underestimated?
When was the last time that everyone involved in compiling the statistics was utterly opposed to the direction the government was taking, and determined to see every dataset in the most negative light possible?
"True but pre-Brexit under Osborne the OBR was overestimating the public finances"
The ONS has been underestimating the strength of the British economy since about 2014. Not sure about the OBR but I suspect similar.
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
In fairness we didn’t have the OBR seeking to reclaim the description of the dismal science for most of your adult life. But yes, the underlying strength of our economy is being consistently underestimated
True but pre-Brexit under Osborne the OBR was overestimating the public finances. Under Brown the public finances were consistently and often dramatically overestimated.
When was the last time our economy was consistently underestimated?
When was the last time that everyone involved in compiling the statistics was utterly opposed to the direction the government was taking, and determined to see every dataset in the most negative light possible?
I can't say that in 2015 the civil service was that opposed?
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
In fairness we didn’t have the OBR seeking to reclaim the description of the dismal science for most of your adult life. But yes, the underlying strength of our economy is being consistently underestimated
Sadly, 'the underlying strength of our economy' can be proved a mirage or vanish into dust. Never put too much faith in it politically. Gordon and his cheerleaders where similarly vainglorious all those years ago.
The economic record is no less staggering. Enthusiasts are beginning to talk of a British miracle, as the UK notches up low inflation, low unemployment and low interest rates, accompanied by high growth - all the envy of the G7 industrialised nations. While previous Labour governments were ousted amid economic disarray, this one has weathered the last five years better than most of Europe and even the US.
If Labour had continued on the path it took in their first term they wouldn't have been too bad. Sadly from 2002 the spending taps were turned onto max and never turned off.
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
In fairness we didn’t have the OBR seeking to reclaim the description of the dismal science for most of your adult life. But yes, the underlying strength of our economy is being consistently underestimated
True but pre-Brexit under Osborne the OBR was overestimating the public finances. Under Brown the public finances were consistently and often dramatically overestimated.
When was the last time our economy was consistently underestimated?
If I remember right, the last time that GDP growth and government tax revenue exceeded predictions was in 97, 98 and I think 99. At the time Brown had just become canceler, but had promised to stick to the conservative planes, and not introduce anything new, and he largely kept that promise to start with.
At the moment the government is obsessing about Brexit and stuck without of mayoralty in HofC and therefore doing less than normal in terms of new Law regulations, NEW spending taxis.
In both cases relative regulatory stability, meant privet secter planes can come to florition as planed and 'the would works', things get better! everybody winns!
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
Hardly surprising when the forecasts now come from the economic establishment convinced to the marrow of their bones that Brexit would cause an immediate downturn, rather than a CoE who just wants more room to play with.
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
In fairness we didn’t have the OBR seeking to reclaim the description of the dismal science for most of your adult life. But yes, the underlying strength of our economy is being consistently underestimated
True but pre-Brexit under Osborne the OBR was overestimating the public finances. Under Brown the public finances were consistently and often dramatically overestimated.
When was the last time our economy was consistently underestimated?
When was the last time that everyone involved in compiling the statistics was utterly opposed to the direction the government was taking, and determined to see every dataset in the most negative light possible?
"True but pre-Brexit under Osborne the OBR was overestimating the public finances"
The ONS has been underestimating the strength of the British economy since about 2014. Not sure about the OBR but I suspect similar.
There are quite good reasons for the OBR being cautious about our economy. The gross over optimism of Brown and, to a lesser extent, Osborne does us very little favour in the long run. I thought getting the deficit out by more than 10% in month 11 of the FY was overdoing it a bit though
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
Hardly surprising when the forecasts now come from the economic establishment convinced to the marrow of their bones that Brexit would cause an immediate downturn, rather than a CoE who just wants more room to play with.
Goes to show that the establishment are wrong though. Who could have forecast that?
It’s finally dawning on the cult that Jeremy Corbyn can think of many better places to be today, than be at an anti-Brexit march in London.
The cult will convince themselves some nonsense that it was a scheduling issue and his trip to Jordan was books months ago yadda yadda yadda. AS surprising as boris having a meeting abroad when the Heathrow vote comes around.
I don't imagine he deliberately planned it for the same day (though he could have) but people motivated enough to go out marching for the day (or a few hours anyway) would probably mostly know that Corbyn was not going to be there.
It's seems very unlikely they were singing it because they were genuinely surprised he wasn't there...
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
In fairness we didn’t have the OBR seeking to reclaim the description of the dismal science for most of your adult life. But yes, the underlying strength of our economy is being consistently underestimated
Sadly, 'the underlying strength of our economy' can be proved a mirage or vanish into dust. Never put too much faith in it politically. Gordon and his cheerleaders where similarly vainglorious all those years ago.
The economic record is no less staggering. Enthusiasts are beginning to talk of a British miracle, as the UK notches up low inflation, low unemployment and low interest rates, accompanied by high growth - all the envy of the G7 industrialised nations. While previous Labour governments were ousted amid economic disarray, this one has weathered the last five years better than most of Europe and even the US.
If Labour had continued on the path it took in their first term they wouldn't have been too bad. Sadly from 2002 the spending taps were turned onto max and never turned off.
+1.
If it weren’t for an annual £50bn of tax credits, we’d be running a surplus now and be £500bn better off.
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
Hardly surprising when the forecasts now come from the economic establishment convinced to the marrow of their bones that Brexit would cause an immediate downturn, rather than a CoE who just wants more room to play with.
Goes to show that the establishment are wrong though. Who could have forecast that?
We're just lucky to have a BoE Governor with the foresight and courage to save our economy with a mighty 0.25% rate cut. The sigh of relief that morning as he averted disaster will stay with me forever.
It’s finally dawning on the cult that Jeremy Corbyn can think of many better places to be today, than be at an anti-Brexit march in London.
The cult will convince themselves some nonsense that it was a scheduling issue and his trip to Jordan was books months ago yadda yadda yadda. AS surprising as boris having a meeting abroad when the Heathrow vote comes around.
I don't imagine he deliberately planned it for the same day (though he could have) but people motivated enough to go out marching for the day (or a few hours anyway) would probably mostly know that Corbyn was not going to be there.
It's seems very unlikely they were singing it because they were genuinely surprised he wasn't there...
There are a few options: *) He deliberately planned the trip to avoid the rally. *) He was incompetent and did not realise they were on the same day. *) He did realise, and judged the Palestinians are more important than his own countrymen.
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
Hardly surprising when the forecasts now come from the economic establishment convinced to the marrow of their bones that Brexit would cause an immediate downturn, rather than a CoE who just wants more room to play with.
Goes to show that the establishment are wrong though. Who could have forecast that?
We're just lucky to have a BoE Governor with the foresight and courage to save our economy with a mighty 0.25% rate cut. The sigh of relief that morning as he averted disaster will stay with me forever.
... or it could be that the signal helped trigger the large drop in sterling which saved the economy.
Labour would have to come up with something pretty bad for it to be worse for business than Brexit.
At least Brexit might offer the chance for reduced regulations for business, Corbynism just means higher taxes and more strikes
Agreed! I which that the the government, the brexit negotiators or better still the Prime Minister were steadily announcing which bits of EU regulations will go the day we leave, but instead Her first/early statements that I remember where that all EU regulations would be transferred in to UK law so there would be no change, with the small caveat that we may get rid of some latter.
I do think it is worth noting that the UK regulatory althoratys (and government) would typically interpret and in force the rules in the most draconian way possible, especially compared to nations like the Netherlands.
I think there is/was a clash of cultures, in the UK less rules but tightly unforced, Europe rules for lots of things but only in-force where required. the UK in the EU meant we got the worst of both woulds!!! and its silly to blames the EU for this.
If we leave but only get rid of a token amount of the regulations the we risk being in the same disadvantageous position for a protracted period of time. (that could get a lot worse is Corben becomes PM)
I do wonder if European governments were aware of how much more stringently regulations can be applied in this country and pushed for harder rules knowing they would be enforced less in their own countries.
I remember back in the days I worked in the EU Parliament, I think it was for transport committee that I did a lot of my work with there was, that a rules came out, it may have been for having brakes in driving when there were 2 drives in the cab so one could sleep wile the other drove, but I may miss-remembered the subject.
We looked up how it was implements in different nations, it was sum thing like the UK needed 140 pages of UK regulation to make it fit our legal system, the nest highest was about 55 pages (less than half ours) most where 15-30 pages, but the Dutch managed to do it in 4 pages, yes 4 pages! Now imagen you are a owner of a small company trying to follow the rules 4 pages verses 140 pages, just trying to read and understand what you are meant to be doing! and supposedly the actual restrictions where the same.
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
I think people will go a decade without acknowledging underperformance connected with Brexit. A situation like Italy is likely IMO. The country sort of works but it's tiring for young people who scrabble for insecure and inconvenient jobs. Not great.
It’s finally dawning on the cult that Jeremy Corbyn can think of many better places to be today, than be at an anti-Brexit march in London.
The cult will convince themselves some nonsense that it was a scheduling issue and his trip to Jordan was books months ago yadda yadda yadda. AS surprising as boris having a meeting abroad when the Heathrow vote comes around.
I don't imagine he deliberately planned it for the same day (though he could have) but people motivated enough to go out marching for the day (or a few hours anyway) would probably mostly know that Corbyn was not going to be there.
It's seems very unlikely they were singing it because they were genuinely surprised he wasn't there...
There are a few options: *) He deliberately planned the trip to avoid the rally. *) He was incompetent and did not realise they were on the same day. *) He did realise, and judged the Palestinians are more important than his own countrymen.
Take your pick.
I don't think he planned on going on the march regardless of whether he was doing something or not, so he was free to do other things. Even things like taking time out for the evil Palestinians....
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
In fairness we didn’t have the OBR seeking to reclaim the description of the dismal science for most of your adult life. But yes, the underlying strength of our economy is being consistently underestimated
Sadly, 'the underlying strength of our economy' can be proved a mirage or vanish into dust. Never put too much faith in it politically. Gordon and his cheerleaders where similarly vainglorious all those years ago.
The economic record is no less staggering. Enthusiasts are beginning to talk of a British miracle, as the UK notches up low inflation, low unemployment and low interest rates, accompanied by high growth - all the envy of the G7 industrialised nations. While previous Labour governments were ousted amid economic disarray, this one has weathered the last five years better than most of Europe and even the US.
If Labour had continued on the path it took in their first term they wouldn't have been too bad. Sadly from 2002 the spending taps were turned onto max and never turned off.
I largely agree with that, But if I recall speeding started going up in slightly in 99 and more in 2000 just before the 01 election and then increasing more after the election so that we went form a budgetary surplussed to a £40 Billion deficit in 2005 (when there was another election)
Now I oppose Keynesian economics and 'Stimulus' spending, but the revers boosting government borrowing is just as bad if not worse!!!
Which is largely why I don't support the '£20 billion' extra for the NHS. (Unless it is accompanied by a cut to other speeding elsewhere by government, may be not locking people in prison for selling pot for starter)
It’s finally dawning on the cult that Jeremy Corbyn can think of many better places to be today, than be at an anti-Brexit march in London.
The cult will convince themselves some nonsense that it was a scheduling issue and his trip to Jordan was books months ago yadda yadda yadda. AS surprising as boris having a meeting abroad when the Heathrow vote comes around.
I don't imagine he deliberately planned it for the same day (though he could have) but people motivated enough to go out marching for the day (or a few hours anyway) would probably mostly know that Corbyn was not going to be there.
It's seems very unlikely they were singing it because they were genuinely surprised he wasn't there...
There are a few options: *) He deliberately planned the trip to avoid the rally. *) He was incompetent and did not realise they were on the same day. *) He did realise, and judged the Palestinians are more important than his own countrymen.
Take your pick.
I don't think he planned on going on the march regardless of whether he was doing something or not, so he was free to do other things. Even things like taking time out for the evil Palestinians....
Now, now. I've never said (and would not say) that the Palestinians are evil. Nice bit of projection there.
And why don't *you* think he planned to go on the march?
It’s finally dawning on the cult that Jeremy Corbyn can think of many better places to be today, than be at an anti-Brexit march in London.
The cult will convince themselves some nonsense that it was a scheduling issue and his trip to Jordan was books months ago yadda yadda yadda. AS surprising as boris having a meeting abroad when the Heathrow vote comes around.
I don't imagine he deliberately planned it for the same day (though he could have) but people motivated enough to go out marching for the day (or a few hours anyway) would probably mostly know that Corbyn was not going to be there.
It's seems very unlikely they were singing it because they were genuinely surprised he wasn't there...
There are a few options: *) He deliberately planned the trip to avoid the rally. *) He was incompetent and did not realise they were on the same day. *) He did realise, and judged the Palestinians are more important than his own countrymen.
Take your pick.
I don't think he planned on going on the march regardless of whether he was doing something or not, so he was free to do other things. Even things like taking time out for the evil Palestinians....
Indeed so. What most of the Faithful still don’t get is that he actively chooses to be somewhere else today. They think he should be front and centre of opposing Brexit, and don’t understand why he doesn’t care about the same things they do.
What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
For the first time in about 20+ years the public finances are consistently coming in better than officially forecast, I can't recall that happening year after year in my adult lifetime.
Hardly surprising when the forecasts now come from the economic establishment convinced to the marrow of their bones that Brexit would cause an immediate downturn, rather than a CoE who just wants more room to play with.
Goes to show that the establishment are wrong though. Who could have forecast that?
We're just lucky to have a BoE Governor with the foresight and courage to save our economy with a mighty 0.25% rate cut. The sigh of relief that morning as he averted disaster will stay with me forever.
... or it could be that the signal helped trigger the large drop in sterling which saved the economy.
There was a 30% fall in sterling in 2008/9 together with a 5% cut in interest rates and a massive increase in government borrowing but that didn't stop the biggest recession since the 1930s.
A recession that the Treasury didn't predict in March 2008.
What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
Still, at least they didn’t fall in behind xenophobic lies in order to win a referendum.
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
I think people will go a decade without acknowledging underperformance connected with Brexit. A situation like Italy is likely IMO. The country sort of works but it's tiring for young people who scrabble for insecure and inconvenient jobs. Not great.
If the government decided to regulate the economy like the Danish and Swedes with very few rules we will have an economy like the Danes and Swedes, if the government tryes to run the economy like the Greeks with big interventions, lots of rules and lots of things owned by the government we will have an economy like Greeks, both of these economy are in the EU but have very diffident outcomes become most of the governing comes from the national level not the EU level. Leaving the EU, on its own will have only the tineast of impact ether way. I supported/support leaving become we could (in theory) totally open up to foren trade and deregulation like Singapore, (or Litchinstine) and be as rich as Singapore, sadly I think there is a diminishing hope that Teresa May will do that.
What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
Still, at least they didn’t fall in behind xenophobic lies in order to win a referendum.
You mean like the xenophobic lies about a jungle of foreigners in Kent if we voted to Leave?
What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
Still, at least they didn’t fall in behind xenophobic lies in order to win a referendum.
Neither did I.
As I’ve told you before, I didn’t deliver a single one of those leaflets during the referendum, just the five positive reasons to vote Leave, and I wrote to Matthew Elliot and Daniel Hannan on more than one occassion with my criticisms and suggestions for the campaign.
I also said on here I thought Vote Leave was disorganised and a poorly run campaign. I made my own arguments on my own blog.
I fought the campaign I wanted to run, and am happy to defend it on that basis.
It’s finally dawning on the cult that Jeremy Corbyn can think of many better places to be today, than be at an anti-Brexit march in London.
The cult will convince themselves some nonsense that it was a scheduling issue and his trip to Jordan was books months ago yadda yadda yadda. AS surprising as boris having a meeting abroad when the Heathrow vote comes around.
I don't imagine he deliberately planned it for the same day (though he could have) but people motivated enough to go out marching for the day (or a few hours anyway) would probably mostly know that Corbyn was not going to be there.
It's seems very unlikely they were singing it because they were genuinely surprised he wasn't there...
There are a few options: *) He deliberately planned the trip to avoid the rally. *) He was incompetent and did not realise they were on the same day. *) He did realise, and judged the Palestinians are more important than his own countrymen.
Take your pick.
I don't think he planned on going on the march regardless of whether he was doing something or not, so he was free to do other things. Even things like taking time out for the evil Palestinians....
Now, now. I've never said (and would not say) that the Palestinians are evil. Nice bit of projection there.
And why don't *you* think he planned to go on the march?
Because he doesn't support a people's vote.
Putting aside the question of whether we would win it or lose and end up with an even harder/worse Brexit...
We have to respect the vote in some way, if the Conservatives spend years messing it up and public opinion changes quite a bit then he may go for or be pressured into the idea. For all the complaints about him being Stalinist votes have gone against him (less often than for) he's pushed democracy in the party and would respect pressure from members which there would be in the circumstances that public opinion shifted.
F1: rain arrived too late for qualifying, but hit the F2 race afterwards. Ah well.
Got a small number of betting thoughts but the markets aren't up yet. Will wait a bit, but might post the article tomorrow instead if it takes too long.
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
You're sad
Nah. Like most normal people I’ve been out enjoying myself today.
In my case, enjoying a fortnum & masons picnic hamper and a bottle of wine at Royal Ascot, along with 70,000 other people.
It’s finally dawning on the cult that Jeremy Corbyn can think of many better places to be today, than be at an anti-Brexit march in London.
The cult will convince themselves some nonsense that it was a scheduling issue and his trip to Jordan was books months ago yadda yadda yadda. AS surprising as boris having a meeting abroad when the Heathrow vote comes around.
I don't imagine he deliberately planned it for the same day (though he could have) but people motivated enough to go out marching for the day (or a few hours anyway) would probably mostly know that Corbyn was not going to be there.
It's seems very unlikely they were singing it because they were genuinely surprised he wasn't there...
There are a few options: *) He deliberately planned the trip to avoid the rally. *) He was incompetent and did not realise they were on the same day. *) He did realise, and judged the Palestinians are more important than his own countrymen.
Take your pick.
I don't think he planned on going on the march regardless of whether he was doing something or not, so he was free to do other things. Even things like taking time out for the evil Palestinians....
Now, now. I've never said (and would not say) that the Palestinians are evil. Nice bit of projection there.
And why don't *you* think he planned to go on the march?
Because he doesn't support a people's vote.
Putting aside the question of whether we would win it or lose and end up with an even harder/worse Brexit...
We have to respect the vote in some way, if the Conservatives spend years messing it up and public opinion changes quite a bit then he may go for or be pressured into the idea. For all the complaints about him being Stalinist votes have gone against him (less often than for) he's pushed democracy in the party and would respect pressure from members which there would be in the circumstances that public opinion shifted.
Because he wants too leave, because (amongst other reasons) the EU gets in the way of changes he would like to bring in. Yet many (most?) of his supporters were remainers.
In this, he is being a typical charlatan politician.
Still, I'm looking forward to him meeting with the Israeli government soon ...
The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.
So if the U.K. outperforms the EZ over the next 5 or 10 years will you admit that you were wrong? Or will the argument be that we would have outperformed them even more?
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
I think people will go a decade without acknowledging underperformance connected with Brexit. A situation like Italy is likely IMO. The country sort of works but it's tiring for young people who scrabble for insecure and inconvenient jobs. Not great.
If the government decided to regulate the economy like the Danish and Swedes with very few rules we will have an economy like the Danes and Swedes, if the government tryes to run the economy like the Greeks with big interventions, lots of rules and lots of things owned by the government we will have an economy like Greeks, both of these economy are in the EU but have very diffident outcomes become most of the governing comes from the national level not the EU level. Leaving the EU, on its own will have only the tineast of impact ether way. I supported/support leaving become we could (in theory) totally open up to foren trade and deregulation like Singapore, (or Litchinstine) and be as rich as Singapore, sadly I think there is a diminishing hope that Teresa May will do that.
If both your examples (one good and one bad) are in the EU, leaving the EU won't help Britain. I am interested in Brexit outcomes, but I don't think you can definitively say what will happen and the extent to which that outcome is informed by Brexit. I would make two observations. There are virtually no known Brexit upsides or known unknowns with potential upsides. There are plenty of downsides. There may be unknown unknowns with upsides but by definition you can't model those. The other point is that the UK went suddenly from an economic outperformer to underperformer following the Brexit referendum. The two events are likely to be connected.
What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
Remember all those lectures dished out to Remainers after the referendum about how they were all elitist and didn’t understand the people of this country? Think of those while enjoying your hamper at Ascot and calling fellow citizens a disgrace for having a different opinion.
What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
You're sad
Nah. Like most normal people I’ve been out enjoying myself today.
In my case, enjoying a fortnum & masons picnic hamper and a bottle of wine at Royal Ascot, along with 70,000 other people.
Very generous of you to share a bottle of wine with 70,000 other people. Even Jesus would have struggled with that.
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
And has just banned “Billy Elliot” for being “gay propaganda”....
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
I wasn't being serious. Just having a dig at Alastair and his obsession with blaming Brexit on xenophobia and demanding that everyone else agree with him. It is more than a little sad.
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
And has just banned “Billy Elliot” for being “gay propaganda”....
If both your examples (one good and one bad) are in the EU, leaving the EU won't help Britain. I am interested in Brexit outcomes, but I don't think you can definitively say what will happen and the extent to which that outcome is informed by Brexit. I would make two observations. There are virtually no known Brexit upsides or known unknowns with potential upsides. There are plenty of downsides. There may be unknown unknowns with upsides but by definition you can't model those. The other point is that the UK went suddenly from an economic outperformer to underperformer following the Brexit referendum. The two events are likely to be connected.
Just because you can not think of any brexit benefits does not mean their are none. So to preempt your next question. Restricting the number of immigrants, could result in an investment boost to increase productivity. Brexit bonus.
Also on the economy slowing about a year ago Carney was warning about car finance and house prices. So he instructed the banks to cut back on lending. Result car sales down, house sales down especially in London. But of course it its 100% due to Brexit.
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
And has just banned “Billy Elliot” for being “gay propaganda”....
The wife heard something on the radio about the Hay Festival having an offshoot festival in Hungary. It went very well, and the Hungarians were happily planning for holding it again. Until they asked "but next year, can we have it without all the Jews and the homosexuals?"
F1: rain arrived too late for qualifying, but hit the F2 race afterwards. Ah well.
Got a small number of betting thoughts but the markets aren't up yet. Will wait a bit, but might post the article tomorrow instead if it takes too long.
The F2 race drizzle was very interesting, shook up the field completely as drivers went off, some incorrectly stopped for wet tyres etc. There’s a thunderstorm forecast for tomorrow around the 4pm (local) start time, we could well end up with a Singapore 2017 scenario.
What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.
What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.
I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.
You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.
I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
You're sad
Nah. Like most normal people I’ve been out enjoying myself today.
In my case, enjoying a fortnum & masons picnic hamper and a bottle of wine at Royal Ascot, along with 70,000 other people.
Very generous of you to share a bottle of wine with 70,000 other people. Even Jesus would have struggled with that.
Are you suggesting there is something fishy about his claim?
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
I wasn't being serious. Just having a dig at Alastair and his obsession with blaming Brexit on xenophobia and demanding that everyone else agree with him. It is more than a little sad.
What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
Remember all those lectures dished out to Remainers after the referendum about how they were all elitist and didn’t understand the people of this country? Think of those while enjoying your hamper at Ascot and calling fellow citizens a disgrace for having a different opinion.
Nah. I didn’t think of Brexit once whilst enjoying my hamper.
And, for what it’s worth, the average punter at Royal Ascot was far more representative of the general population than you’ll ever know.
It can only bind one half of the negotiating table. So what's the point? The EU's unlikely to say "Oh, you had a referendum? Well, we'd better offer you better terms then, hadn't we?"
What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.
I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.
You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.
I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
They can protest all they like. And I am free to call them sad naive losers. It’s fun.
If they want to end the division they can start by stopping trying to frustrate the result, and start helping to shape an inclusive one instead.
It can only bind one half of the negotiating table. So what's the point? The EU's unlikely to say "Oh, you had a referendum? Well, we'd better offer you better terms then, hadn't we?"
I hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that.
What is a success? How do we compare it to a failure?
For example, if the Euro collapses then the relative distance we have opened up with the EU may help insulate us from some of the shock. Therefore it would have been a success. But would that have been due to Brexit, or a coincidence?
My personal hope is that there is no noticeable change. As far as I am concerned, that would be a result. That would be the likeliest outcome if sane and intelligent people were in charge.
My hopes were shafted when Barnier and Davis were put in.
What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.
*still not sure I made the right decision.
Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.
What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
You're sad
Nah. Like most normal people I’ve been out enjoying myself today.
In my case, enjoying a fortnum & masons picnic hamper and a bottle of wine at Royal Ascot, along with 70,000 other people.
Very generous of you to share a bottle of wine with 70,000 other people. Even Jesus would have struggled with that.
What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.
I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.
*still not sure I made the right decision.
Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.
Pathetic.
Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.
I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.
Comments
' Of the 8.88 million people living in London at the time of the most recent UK estimates, 3.32 million (37%) were born outside of the United Kingdom. Of these, approximately a third were born within European Union countries, while the other two thirds were born outside of the European Union. '
http://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/london-population/
https://twitter.com/Holbornlolz/status/1010429133606850561?s=19
I think our growth exceeding theirs is more likely than not. But then I think that would have been the case if we had voted to remain too.
I do not doubt for a moment that Brexit has coursed serious distress to some people, (my Facebook feed will attest to that) and if I could find ways of given reassurance, condolence or even workable compromise I would.
I don't think there is as wide spreed upset as it may at first appear: Anti Brexiters, are undoubtedly very highly motivated, indaviduales, and i try to respect that. They also include many prominent positions in society: The arch Bishop of Canntabrey, Governor of the Bank of England, Heads of international businesses, celebrates, not to mention politicians, Journalists (and commentators on PB!)
I would suggest that, there tern out to this protest shoes that it is not even close to the wide spread opposition to government policy demonstrated in the 'Stop the War' march, or the anti fox hunting ban march. May be the spirit of marching is not what it was 15 years ago? I don't know but with Facebook I would have thought that this would be easier to organise now.
One door closes … another one shuts.
Labour raised £9.5 million over £1 million of which came from the Unite Union. The LDs raised £4 million and the largest individual donation of £300 000 to the LDs from an entrepreneur exceeded the largest individual donation of £60 000 that Labour got. Large corporations and businesspeople won't touch Corbyn Labour with a barge pole whereas they were queuing up to open their chequebooks to Blair and Brown and New Labour. At the 2005 general election New Labour had over £13 million of donations
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/24/uk-political-parties-received-record-40m-of-donations-before-election
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2006/jul/18/labour.uk1
(Note: I know very little about Ince).
' An Irish company will set up a Belfast base and create 124 jobs to "future-proof" the UK part of its business against a hard Brexit.
Eirtech Aviation Services is a manufacturing and aircraft repair firm headquartered in Shannon, County Clare.
It is the second company from the Republic of Ireland to recently expand north ahead of the UK's withdrawal from the European Union.
In May, IT firm Teamwork.com said it would hire 100 staff in Belfast. '
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-44563979
But the overall effect is minimal.
How many of that squad in the present team ?
The economic record is no less staggering. Enthusiasts are beginning to talk of a British miracle, as the UK notches up low inflation, low unemployment and low interest rates, accompanied by high growth - all the envy of the G7 industrialised nations. While previous Labour governments were ousted amid economic disarray, this one has weathered the last five years better than most of Europe and even the US.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2002/may/01/uk.fiveyearsoflabour
When was the last time our economy was consistently underestimated?
I do think it is worth noting that the UK regulatory althoratys (and government) would typically interpret and in force the rules in the most draconian way possible, especially compared to nations like the Netherlands.
I think there is/was a clash of cultures, in the UK less rules but tightly unforced, Europe rules for lots of things but only in-force where required. the UK in the EU meant we got the worst of both woulds!!! and its silly to blames the EU for this.
If we leave but only get rid of a token amount of the regulations the we risk being in the same disadvantageous position for a protracted period of time. (that could get a lot worse is Corben becomes PM)
However, that’s hope, not expectation. I expect that we will leave, and I can only hope (again) that it’s not as messy as appears at the moment to be probable.
One thought. I don’t think, that if the vote had gone the other way, we’d have had the triumphalism from Remainers that we’re seeing from many Leavers. I suspect it there would have been a huge sigh of relief, with a fear that we’ve have to go through it all again before long, given some of the fanatic Leavers.
However, we could have Parliament dealing with the problems of the country, rather than the poisonous situation (on all sides) we appear to have now.
Its sensible to maintain the same rules from day 1 but retain the option to very it from day 2 onwards.
He pointed out that it was up to a parliament with a Remain majority to implement Leave, because electoral sovereignty over-rules parliamentary sovereignty.
But then we all knew that, didn't we?
The ONS has been underestimating the strength of the British economy since about 2014. Not sure about the OBR but I suspect similar.
At the moment the government is obsessing about Brexit and stuck without of mayoralty in HofC and therefore doing less than normal in terms of new Law regulations, NEW spending taxis.
In both cases relative regulatory stability, meant privet secter planes can come to florition as planed and 'the would works', things get better! everybody winns!
Less government meddling = People do better!
Controversial, I know, but this is PB
The difference is that we're used to losing, many Remainers are not.
So I think we're allowed a little teasing.
I do wonder, though, what will happen when Grieg takes over the Mail from Dacre!
It's seems very unlikely they were singing it because they were genuinely surprised he wasn't there...
If it weren’t for an annual £50bn of tax credits, we’d be running a surplus now and be £500bn better off.
*) He deliberately planned the trip to avoid the rally.
*) He was incompetent and did not realise they were on the same day.
*) He did realise, and judged the Palestinians are more important than his own countrymen.
Take your pick.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/23/brexit-protest-two-years-after-referendum
LOL....he obviously missed all the anti-EU articles for the past 10 years.
We looked up how it was implements in different nations, it was sum thing like the UK needed 140 pages of UK regulation to make it fit our legal system, the nest highest was about 55 pages (less than half ours) most where 15-30 pages, but the Dutch managed to do it in 4 pages, yes 4 pages! Now imagen you are a owner of a small company trying to follow the rules 4 pages verses 140 pages, just trying to read and understand what you are meant to be doing! and supposedly the actual restrictions where the same.
Now I oppose Keynesian economics and 'Stimulus' spending, but the revers boosting government borrowing is just as bad if not worse!!!
Which is largely why I don't support the '£20 billion' extra for the NHS.
(Unless it is accompanied by a cut to other speeding elsewhere by government, may be not locking people in prison for selling pot for starter)
And why don't *you* think he planned to go on the march?
Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.
Disgraceful.
A recession that the Treasury didn't predict in March 2008.
As I’ve told you before, I didn’t deliver a single one of those leaflets during the referendum, just the five positive reasons to vote Leave, and I wrote to Matthew Elliot and Daniel Hannan on more than one occassion with my criticisms and suggestions for the campaign.
I also said on here I thought Vote Leave was disorganised and a poorly run campaign. I made my own arguments on my own blog.
I fought the campaign I wanted to run, and am happy to defend it on that basis.
Putting aside the question of whether we would win it or lose and end up with an even harder/worse Brexit...
We have to respect the vote in some way, if the Conservatives spend years messing it up and public opinion changes quite a bit then he may go for or be pressured into the idea. For all the complaints about him being Stalinist votes have gone against him (less often than for) he's pushed democracy in the party and would respect pressure from members which there would be in the circumstances that public opinion shifted.
Got a small number of betting thoughts but the markets aren't up yet. Will wait a bit, but might post the article tomorrow instead if it takes too long.
In my case, enjoying a fortnum & masons picnic hamper and a bottle of wine at Royal Ascot, along with 70,000 other people.
In this, he is being a typical charlatan politician.
Still, I'm looking forward to him meeting with the Israeli government soon ...
I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.
(Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
Also on the economy slowing about a year ago Carney was warning about car finance and house prices. So he instructed the banks to cut back on lending. Result car sales down, house sales down especially in London. But of course it its 100% due to Brexit.
It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.
*still not sure I made the right decision.
I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.
You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.
I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
And, for what it’s worth, the average punter at Royal Ascot was far more representative of the general population than you’ll ever know.
It can only bind one half of the negotiating table. So what's the point? The EU's unlikely to say "Oh, you had a referendum? Well, we'd better offer you better terms then, hadn't we?"
If they want to end the division they can start by stopping trying to frustrate the result, and start helping to shape an inclusive one instead.
There's no intention of getting a better deal.
For example, if the Euro collapses then the relative distance we have opened up with the EU may help insulate us from some of the shock. Therefore it would have been a success. But would that have been due to Brexit, or a coincidence?
My personal hope is that there is no noticeable change. As far as I am concerned, that would be a result. That would be the likeliest outcome if sane and intelligent people were in charge.
My hopes were shafted when Barnier and Davis were put in.
From here, a success is 'not all out war.'
Pathetic.
I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.