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  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html

    I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
    Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.

    I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.

    (Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
    I wasn't being serious. Just having a dig at Alastair and his obsession with blaming Brexit on xenophobia and demanding that everyone else agree with him. It is more than a little sad.
    'Sad' - Trump's favourite word.
    Thankfully for all his other myriad faults Trump has not yet hijacked the English language. As amply illustrated by Barnesian using exactly the same word to describe an opponent 20 minutes before I did. :)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Sandpit, ah, cheers. Harder getting weather forecasts for such places.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,742
    edited June 2018
    Foxy said:

    AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html

    I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.

    Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.

    I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.

    (Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
    It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it, but then the coalition came in and their policies were not so mean spirited or destructive.

    *still not sure I made the right decision.
    Slight adjustment to reflect the reality :smiley:

    (In all seriousness, my memories include Thatcher and I would certainly say Blair and Brown were more vicious, divisive, destructive and damaging than she was, which is not to praise Thatcher.)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.

    AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html

    I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
    Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.

    I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.

    (Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
    It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.

    *still not sure I made the right decision.
    Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.

    Pathetic.
    Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.

    I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.
    I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014
    So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.

    Interesting. Very interesting.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    Ref wants a German win.....
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.

    AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html

    I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
    Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.

    I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.

    (Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
    It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.

    *still not sure I made the right decision.
    Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.

    Pathetic.
    Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.

    I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.
    I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.
    Hmm. To be fair I can. And amazing as it might be to say something nice about him, to his credit so has Mr Meeks.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited June 2018

    Mr. Sandpit, ah, cheers. Harder getting weather forecasts for such places.

    Indeed. The F3 and F2 races are both in the morning, so I guess we’ll have to try and listen to what people at the track are saying on Twitter. Sky coverage of the track parade starts at T-100’

    BTW, Kimi for a podium at 3.5 might have a little value in the rain.
    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/motor-sport/event/28763238/market?marketId=1.144615488
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    BigRich said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.

    I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.

    You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.

    I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
    Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Sandpit, not so sure. The Mercedes has the new engine and the Red Bulls should be tasty in the wet. Plus, Bottas apparently did some wet weather testing at the circuit.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a

    Disgraceful.

    Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.

    AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html

    I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
    Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.

    I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.

    (Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
    It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.

    *still not sure I made the right decision.
    Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.

    Pathetic.
    Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.

    I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.
    I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.
    Hmm. To be fair I can. And amazing as it might be to say something nice about him, to his credit so has Mr Meeks.
    Mr Meeks, definitely. Foxy has been consistently retweeting and applauding every Remain meme going that I can recall.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    BigRich said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.

    I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.

    You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.

    I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
    Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.
    Xenophobia like this? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/feb/08/brexit-jungle-camp-england-calais
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517

    So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.

    Interesting. Very interesting.

    To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.

    *If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.

    I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014

    So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.

    Interesting. Very interesting.

    To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.

    *If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.

    I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.
    I couldn’t agree more.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    FF43 said:

    BigRich said:

    FF43 said:

    DavidL said:

    The way that British politics is going, business is indeed f**ked. With the anti-business extreme Brexiteers on the one side (who prudently are investing elsewhere to avoid the consequences of their advocated actions) and the anti-capitalist Corbynites on the other side, long term economic underperformance looks almost inevitable.

    o.
    t.
    at.
    If both your examples (one good and one bad) are in the EU, leaving the EU won't help Britain. I am interested in Brexit outcomes, but I don't think you can definitively say what will happen and the extent to which that outcome is informed by Brexit. I would make two observations. There are virtually no known Brexit upsides or known unknowns with potential upsides. There are plenty of downsides. There may be unknown unknowns with upsides but by definition you can't model those. The other point is that the UK went suddenly from an economic outperformer to underperformer following the Brexit referendum. The two events are likely to be connected.
    A few points there,

    The first, yes that is the point I was making, perhaps not clearly enough, but absolutely Domestic policy is far more important than in/out of the EU, and there are big examples to demonstrate this. agreed.

    Second, the most quoted advantage directly tied to leaving the EU is the '£350 million a week' or whatever the real number is, to me this is small but it is an advantage. The two areas that could make a big difference are International Traid, and deregulation, both of witch can now happen, but saying something can happen and will happen are very different.

    I am curese what you think are the defiant downsides? whether we can still trade with the EU tariff free is still to be determined, as is free movement/NI boarder and much more. I am not saying there are not any, but Like the 350 million a week they are IMO small and often overstated.

    the UK growth rate has been slightly less in the last year than it was in 15/16 while it is possible this is related to BREXIT, there are plenty of other reasons and its very difficult to say when the change is small, it is also possible that GDP Grouth rates are just wrong, based on the number of new jobs created, increase in tax revenue, new inward investment, the GDP fingers are not aligning.

    What we can say for defiant is that, if the predictions made by institutions run by Remainders and repeated by the remain campaign where correct then, the UK should be in a recession if the predictions, repeated by the remain side were right, they were wrong very wrong.

    To coin a phrase, 'Its not BREXIT, its what you do with it that relay counts'

    INBIWUDWITRC anybody?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    This movement is only going to grow in strength.
    image
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    This movement is only going to grow in strength.

    Only going to get even better at picking flattering camera angles?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001

    So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.

    Interesting. Very interesting.

    To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.

    *If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.

    I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.
    I agree with you though the hardcore remainers and Brexiteers are as bad as each other.

    The media have been in their element today reporting the march but I do not see it making any difference.

    Just give TM space to negotiate
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    Well done Sweden so far
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    Ref won't be happy - nothing he could do there to help Germany!
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014

    So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.

    Interesting. Very interesting.

    To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.

    *If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.

    I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.
    I agree with you though the hardcore remainers and Brexiteers are as bad as each other.

    The media have been in their element today reporting the march but I do not see it making any difference.

    Just give TM space to negotiate
    +1

    That’s all I ask for.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    What odds on Germany and Merkel both out the same weekend
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787
    To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 48,917

    To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/10/18/the-nearest-run-thing/
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    Sandpit said:

    wow. just wow. this is the cult in action:

    ttps://twitter.com/ronanburtenshaw/status/1010545006497722368

    It's seems very unlikely they were singing it because they were genuinely surprised he wasn't there...
    There are a few options:
    *) He deliberately planned the trip to avoid the rally.
    *) He was incompetent and did not realise they were on the same day.
    *) He did realise, and judged the Palestinians are more important than his own countrymen.

    Take your pick. ;)
    I don't think he planned on going on the march regardless of whether he was doing something or not, so he was free to do other things. Even things like taking time out for the evil Palestinians....

    Now, now. I've never said (and would not say) that the Palestinians are evil. Nice bit of projection there. ;)

    And why don't *you* think he planned to go on the march?
    Because he wants too leave, because (amongst other reasons) the EU gets in the way of changes he would like to bring in. Yet many (most?) of his supporters were remainers.

    In this, he is being a typical charlatan politician.

    Still, I'm looking forward to him meeting with the Israeli government soon ... ;)
    I don't think it's his primary issue, trident is much closer to his heart and he was happy to keep it as Labour policy, I wouldn't be surprised if Labour members were on his side on that issue but he kept it for pragmatic reasons.

    I'm not sure you understand democracy if you think voting remain means you ignore a result that comes up otherwise.

    Labour members, me included, Corbyn and many Labour MPs voted remain. What none of us voted for was a second referendum, a people's vote or an attempt to ignore the referendum result.

    Didn't you say you voted remain but think we should carry out the referendum vote?

    Maybe the rest of us aren't allowed to respect votes for some strange reason...

    As soon as the Israeli government is fighting to survive against an occupation supplied by military super powers whilst being ostracised by the international community I'm sure he'll be there. As it is I'm not sure they need much help anyway, the Palestinians look through throughly beaten already.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    This movement is only going to grow in strength.
    image

    "movement" as in a stream of shit?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614

    So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.

    Interesting. Very interesting.

    To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.

    *If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.

    I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.
    Well said. Hopefully everyone will eventually come to the conclusion that, no matter what their own view of events of the last couple of years, we all need to work together to make a successful future.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    BigRich said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.

    I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.

    You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.

    I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
    Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.
    Please read my comment above, using insulted accusations of 'Xenophobia' is not nice, or persuasive.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,061
    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html

    I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.

    Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.

    I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.

    (Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
    It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it, but then the coalition came in and their policies were not so mean spirited or destructive.

    *still not sure I made the right decision.
    Slight adjustment to reflect the reality :smiley:

    (In all seriousness, my memories include Thatcher and I would certainly say Blair and Brown were more vicious, divisive, destructive and damaging than she was, which is not to praise Thatcher.)
    The first term of New Labour was pretty good. It was after 2001 that Blair went bonkers kissing Bush's arse and Brown went bonkers with the chequebook.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001

    To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?

    And achieving nothing
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?

    That there'd be a hardcore group of people that wouldn't accept the result of the referendum? I think that was nailed on.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?

    Yes, as Remainers have a limitless capacity to whine about losing the Referendum.....
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014

    To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?

    You are a zealot and a loon.

    If it hadn’t been this, you’d have found something else to hang your hat on.

    Maybe a picture of a “busy” pub meet in Hackney, or a choreographed protest outside Roland Rudd’s house.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    In footballing news come on Sweden!
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html

    I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.

    Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.

    I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.

    (Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
    It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it, but then the coalition came in and their policies were not so mean spirited or destructive.

    *still not sure I made the right decision.
    Slight adjustment to reflect the reality :smiley:

    (In all seriousness, my memories include Thatcher and I would certainly say Blair and Brown were more vicious, divisive, destructive and damaging than she was, which is not to praise Thatcher.)
    The first term of New Labour was pretty good. It was after 2001 that Blair went bonkers kissing Bush's arse and Brown went bonkers with the chequebook.
    Well, Blair/Brown spent their first term being Continuity Ken Clarke.....
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001

    In footballing news come on Sweden!

    +1
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489

    To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?


    Yes, well no, I thought there would be demonstrations on the scale of Fox hunting at lest and may be Stop the war'

    After Teresa messed up the start by coming out with the Silly 'Brexit means Brexit' trying not to have a vote in parliament i thought that it would spear massive opposition. I cant think of a single MP sinse Bonar Law, who could miss handle the PR, her own party, Parliament and the negotiations themselves as badly as she has No Leadership No vision, no Planing, and still only 100,000 on the streets.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,061
    Sandpit said:

    So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.

    Interesting. Very interesting.

    To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.

    *If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.

    I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.
    Well said. Hopefully everyone will eventually come to the conclusion that, no matter what their own view of events of the last couple of years, we all need to work together to make a successful future.
    Not going to happen. Politics is about choices, and we have made a bad one. There is no simple resolution to this divide, though EEA would probably be best fit.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    edited June 2018

    To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?

    Yes of course., There will always be those who refuse to accept the result of the referendum and the whole Article 50 process is designed to drag the process out over an extended period (for good reasons undoubtedly) and that gives the unreconciled hope that they can reverse it somehow.

    It is pointless but demonstrations are not anything that either side should get upset about.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Sandpit said:

    So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.

    Interesting. Very interesting.

    To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.

    *If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.

    I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.
    Well said. Hopefully everyone will eventually come to the conclusion that, no matter what their own view of events of the last couple of years, we all need to work together to make a successful future.
    There are unfortunately a hard core who want to see Britain crash and burn just to prove they were right.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    In footballing news come on Sweden!

    +1
    I am proudly sitting on my IKEA sofa yelling my head off for Sweden. I doubt I am alone.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,770
    BigRich said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    I see John Redwood is implicitly joining in the calls to nationalise Airbus.
    https://twitter.com/johnredwood/status/1010108010193211393?s=21

    Most Tories must be praying that the old Marxist Jezza doesn't fall under a bus. What an even vaguely pro-business Labour leader could do to them now is truly frightening.
    In our topsy turvy world we may well have Business backing Jezza and John at the next election!
    Vince and Jo maybe, even Brexit will not see business back Marxists like Corbyn and McDonnell
    Labour would have to come up with something pretty bad for it to be worse for business than Brexit.
    At least Brexit might offer the chance for reduced regulations for business, Corbynism just means higher taxes and more strikes
    Agreed! I which that the the government, the brexit negotiators or better still the Prime Minister were steadily announcing which bits of EU regulations will go the day we leave, but instead Her first/early statements that I remember where that all EU regulations would be transferred in to UK law so there would be no change, with the small caveat that we may get rid of some latter.

    I do think it is worth noting that the UK regulatory althoratys (and government) would typically interpret and in force the rules in the most draconian way possible, especially compared to nations like the Netherlands.

    I think there is/was a clash of cultures, in the UK less rules but tightly unforced, Europe rules for lots of things but only in-force where required. the UK in the EU meant we got the worst of both woulds!!! and its silly to blames the EU for this.

    If we leave but only get rid of a token amount of the regulations the we risk being in the same disadvantageous position for a protracted period of time. (that could get a lot worse is Corben becomes PM)
    I think - from a legislative journey perspective - the only way to go is to initially transfer everything across, and then remove stuff piecemeal over time. However, given the UK's history in this area - and the willingess to goldplate EU regulation - I suspect that there won't be much here that will have a dramatic effect.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,770
    welshowl said:

    In footballing news come on Sweden!

    +1
    I am proudly sitting on my IKEA sofa yelling my head off for Sweden. I doubt I am alone.
    Look around. Is there someone else in the room with you? If there is, then you are not alone, and no doubt is required.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    BigRich said:

    BigRich said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.

    I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.

    You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.

    I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
    Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.
    Please read my comment above, using insulted accusations of 'Xenophobia' is not nice, or persuasive.
    He says the same thing three times a day because it makes him feel special. Let him be.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    F1: hmm. No new markets up for about an hour. Will give it a little longer, otherwise the pre-race ramble will be up tomorrow.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.

    Interesting. Very interesting.

    To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.

    *If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.

    I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.
    Well said. Hopefully everyone will eventually come to the conclusion that, no matter what their own view of events of the last couple of years, we all need to work together to make a successful future.
    Not going to happen. Politics is about choices, and we have made a bad one. There is no simple resolution to this divide, though EEA would probably be best fit.
    Spectator has let drop in an article that Barnier has hardened his position to Ceta with NI in the customs union and that is it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,742
    Foxy said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html

    I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.

    Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.

    I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.

    (Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
    It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it, but then the coalition came in and their policies were not so mean spirited or destructive.

    *still not sure I made the right decision.
    Slight adjustment to reflect the reality :smiley:

    (In all seriousness, my memories include Thatcher and I would certainly say Blair and Brown were more vicious, divisive, destructive and damaging than she was, which is not to praise Thatcher.)
    The first term of New Labour was pretty good. It was after 2001 that Blair went bonkers kissing Bush's arse and Brown went bonkers with the chequebook.
    It was very nice for their supporters.

    If you were in a rural comp that went bankrupt due to their seizing all its money to give to their client groups, it wasn't quite so rosy.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,879

    To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?

    100,000+ people marching in favour of the EU is quite something anywhere in Europe, let alone the UK. I doubt it will have any direct effect, but it is something that can be cited should public opinion turn. If that does happen, some leading politicians who were not there will have cause to regret it.

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Sandpit said:

    So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.

    Interesting. Very interesting.

    To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.

    *If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.

    I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.
    Well said. Hopefully everyone will eventually come to the conclusion that, no matter what their own view of events of the last couple of years, we all need to work together to make a successful future.
    There are unfortunately a hard core who want to see Britain crash and burn just to prove they were right.
    Making excuses already.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    rcs1000 said:

    welshowl said:

    In footballing news come on Sweden!

    +1
    I am proudly sitting on my IKEA sofa yelling my head off for Sweden. I doubt I am alone.
    Look around. Is there someone else in the room with you? If there is, then you are not alone, and no doubt is required.
    Lol.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Elliot said:

    BigRich said:

    BigRich said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.

    I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.

    You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.

    I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
    Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.
    Please read my comment above, using insulted accusations of 'Xenophobia' is not nice, or persuasive.
    He says the same thing three times a day because it makes him feel special. Let him be.
    Says the man who casts doubt on a man’s integrity based on his parentage.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787

    To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?

    100,000+ people marching in favour of the EU is quite something anywhere in Europe, let alone the UK. I doubt it will have any direct effect, but it is something that can be cited should public opinion turn. If that does happen, some leading politicians who were not there will have cause to regret it.

    If we head into a ‘no deal’ stand-off this is laying the ground for a Euromaidan style protest.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,742
    BigRich said:

    To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?


    Yes, well no, I thought there would be demonstrations on the scale of Fox hunting at lest and may be Stop the war'

    After Teresa messed up the start by coming out with the Silly 'Brexit means Brexit' trying not to have a vote in parliament i thought that it would spear massive opposition. I cant think of a single MP sinse Bonar Law, who could miss handle the PR, her own party, Parliament and the negotiations themselves as badly as she has No Leadership No vision, no Planing, and still only 100,000 on the streets.
    Why pick on Bonar Law? 209 days in office didn't give him much chance to mess up. Were you thinking of Baldwin and the Tarriff Election of 1923?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    Sandpit said:

    So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.

    Interesting. Very interesting.

    To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.

    *If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.

    I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.
    Well said. Hopefully everyone will eventually come to the conclusion that, no matter what their own view of events of the last couple of years, we all need to work together to make a successful future.
    There are unfortunately a hard core who want to see Britain crash and burn just to prove they were right.
    Making excuses already.
    Not in the least. They are going to be disappointed and there is absolutely nothing they can do to change that.

    Just pointing out one of the facts you conveniently like to ignore.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    BigRich said:

    BigRich said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.

    I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.

    You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.

    I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
    Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.
    Please read my comment above, using insulted accusations of 'Xenophobia' is not nice, or persuasive.
    I’m not trying to persuade or be nice. Till Leavers confront their pandering to xenophobia, Britain is destined to be divided and decline.
  • surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    edited June 2018

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.

    AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html

    I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
    Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.

    I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.

    (Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
    It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.

    *still not sure I made the right decision.
    Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.

    Pathetic.
    Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.

    I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.
    I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.
    He has repeatedly. You are a Trumpian Brexiter. Insisting on something without any proof.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,765

    BigRich said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.

    I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.

    You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.

    I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
    Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.
    The Miners' Strike was far more bitter and divisive than Brexit, but over time, passions cooled.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,742
    Sean_F said:

    BigRich said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.

    I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.

    You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.

    I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
    Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.
    The Miners' Strike was far more bitter and divisive than Brexit, but over time, passions cooled.
    Have they?

    I think a great many ex-miners would not altogether agree...
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Sean_F said:

    BigRich said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.

    I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.

    You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.

    I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
    Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.
    The Miners' Strike was far more bitter and divisive than Brexit, but over time, passions cooled.
    Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.

    And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014
    surby said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.

    AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html

    I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UK, living in a country that has turned out to be filled with those he would describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
    Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.

    I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.

    (Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
    It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.

    *still not sure I made the right decision.
    Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.

    Pathetic.
    Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.

    I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.
    I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.
    He has repeatedly. You are a Trumpian Brexiter. Insisting on something without any proof.
    Look who’s talking.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014
    Sean_F said:

    BigRich said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.

    I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.

    You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.

    I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
    Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.
    The Miners' Strike was far more bitter and divisive than Brexit, but over time, passions cooled.
    Ah, but this time it’s the urban middle class who feel they’re on the losing side.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    ydoethur said:

    BigRich said:

    To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?


    Yes, well no, I thought there would be demonstrations on the scale of Fox hunting at lest and may be Stop the war'

    After Teresa messed up the start by coming out with the Silly 'Brexit means Brexit' trying not to have a vote in parliament i thought that it would spear massive opposition. I cant think of a single MP sinse Bonar Law, who could miss handle the PR, her own party, Parliament and the negotiations themselves as badly as she has No Leadership No vision, no Planing, and still only 100,000 on the streets.
    Why pick on Bonar Law? 209 days in office didn't give him much chance to mess up. Were you thinking of Baldwin and the Tarriff Election of 1923?
    Bonar Law is a man I 'like to dislike' if you know what I mean? (and is in some ways pertenant to Teresa May, bot became leaders of there partys when all the opposition doped out for other reasons.)

    he also sore no valuse in free trade, ( i am simplifying but his actions ended the time when the UK has almost complete free traded from the abolition of the corn laws till him the UK was THE training nation and became rich and powerful, since him we have got weather in absolute terms but less so relative to the rest of the would.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571

    surby said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.

    AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html

    I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UKwould describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
    Actually, I'm unsure that follows. It's perfectly possible to like/love a place, but not like the direction that place has taken politically or socially. For instance, if an extremist government took power in the UK, I doubt I would *love* the country any less, and probably wouldn't move except if things got really bad.

    I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.

    (Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
    It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.

    *still not sure I made the right decision.
    Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.

    Pathetic.
    Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.

    I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.
    I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.
    He has repeatedly. You are a Trumpian Brexiter. Insisting on something without any proof.
    Look who’s talking.
    Look who’s talking 2....

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,742

    Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.

    And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.

    The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).

    Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.

    If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.

    Passions cooling? Not for decades.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,014
    Nigelb said:

    surby said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.

    AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html

    I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UKwould describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
    Actually, I'm unsure


    I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.

    (Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
    It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.

    *still not sure I made the right decision.
    Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.

    Pathetic.
    Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.

    I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.
    I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.
    He has repeatedly. You are a Trumpian Brexiter. Insisting on something without any proof.
    Look who’s talking.
    Look who’s talking 2....

    Awful sequel.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    To be serious for a moment, did any Brexit supporter seriously expect that two years after the vote, this would be the sight on the streets of London?

    Yes. Losers don't like admitting defeat especially when that defeat hasn't been implemented. There have been much bigger marches before doesn't make them anything special.

    See the protests that follow any Tory government. Though the biggest protests I can think of ironically were under Blair and they dwarf today.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,614
    edited June 2018

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.

    Interesting. Very interesting.

    To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.

    *If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.

    I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.
    Well said. Hopefully everyone will eventually come to the conclusion that, no matter what their own view of events of the last couple of years, we all need to work together to make a successful future.
    Not going to happen. Politics is about choices, and we have made a bad one. There is no simple resolution to this divide, though EEA would probably be best fit.
    Spectator has let drop in an article that Barnier has hardened his position to Ceta with NI in the customs union and that is it.
    The EU position really does seem to be either the annexation of Northern Ireland or No Deal where the planes stop flying.
    Where do they honestly expect us to go from here, except to call their bluff?
  • tysontyson Posts: 6,049

    Nigelb said:

    surby said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.

    AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html

    I have often think the man doth protest too much. Remember he was happy to spend much of his time, when not in the UKwould describe as racists and xenophobes who have elected a Government that is considered extremist by the rest of the EU.
    Actually, I'm unsure


    I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.

    (Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
    It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.

    *still not sure I made the right decision.
    Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.

    Pathetic.
    Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.

    I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.
    I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.
    He has repeatedly. You are a Trumpian Brexiter. Insisting on something without any proof.
    Look who’s talking.
    Look who’s talking 2....

    Awful sequel.
    Number 1 was shocking enough

  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Foxy said:

    Sandpit said:

    So over 99% of those who voted Remain two years ago either couldn’t be bothered to march today, or didn’t want to, because they either didn’t care or had better things to do.

    Interesting. Very interesting.

    To be fair, I think that's the way it should really be. I'm a little fed up with the way everything is being subsumed by Brexit, and that massive issues that face the country are being ignored, with Brexit being used as an excuse.

    *If* Brexit end up badly for the country (and I hasten to add I hope it does not), then it won't be as bad as any number of things a government could do themselves - just look at Venezuela.

    I'd like both sides (and especially the hardcore Brexiteers) to calm down a little and look at the other things that need fixing in the country. Brexit and the EU are important, but so are many other things.
    Well said. Hopefully everyone will eventually come to the conclusion that, no matter what their own view of events of the last couple of years, we all need to work together to make a successful future.
    Not going to happen. Politics is about choices, and we have made a bad one. There is no simple resolution to this divide, though EEA would probably be best fit.
    Spectator has let drop in an article that Barnier has hardened his position to Ceta with NI in the customs union and that is it.
    https://i.imgflip.com/139rfe.jpg
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571

    Nigelb said:

    surby said:

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Nope, just marching for an inclusive internationalist future for Britain. Good luck to them. Femi is convincing me that we really do need a Peoples Vote on the deal.

    AlastairMeeks was happy to have these xenophobic lies on his side. Beware the jungle of migrants if leave wins. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12146463/David-Cameron-says-Brexit-would-bring-a-migrant-Jungle-to-Kent-what-are-the-facts.html

    I have often think the man doth protest tooU.
    Actually, I'm unsure


    I don't know why Alastair has a place in Hungary, or his attachment to the place (and it's really no business of ours). But he *might* despair of what's happening there as much as we do, but still feel an attachment to the place.

    (Or not. I don't want to speak for Alastair, but I'm just pointing out your comment doesn't necessarily follow.)
    It is certainly true, it was when I was living as an expat in NZ, and thinking about staying for ever*, that I decided that despite a mean spirited government with destructive policies, I cared enough to return and campaign for a better Britain. For a while under New Labour we had it.

    *still not sure I made the right decision.
    Like you ever needed “Femi” to convince you to make a decision you’d already made.

    Pathetic.
    Nope. I have opposed a second vote consistently for the last 2 years on PB.

    I challenge you to cite me saying anything different.
    I think that’s nonsense. I can’t recall you ever saying anything of the sort.
    He has repeatedly. You are a Trumpian Brexiter. Insisting on something without any proof.
    Look who’s talking.
    Look who’s talking 2....

    Awful sequel.
    Pretty well my point.
    :smile:
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    BigRich said:

    BigRich said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.

    I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.

    You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.

    I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
    Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.
    Please read my comment above, using insulted accusations of 'Xenophobia' is not nice, or persuasive.
    I’m not trying to persuade or be nice. Till Leavers confront their pandering to xenophobia, Britain is destined to be divided and decline.
    Yet you are pointedly ignoring remain's even worse pandering to xenophobia.

    Leave quoted the government own policy and its pandering to xenophobia.
    Remain claimed a jungle of migrants would come to the UK if we voted to leave and total silence from you.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,061
    ydoethur said:

    Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.

    And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.

    The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).

    Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.

    If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.

    Passions cooling? Not for decades.
    Indeed the former coalfields map well to the areas that voted Leave. Bringing down Cameron and London was their revenge served cold.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Sean_F said:

    BigRich said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.

    I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.

    You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.

    I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
    Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.
    The Miners' Strike was far more bitter and divisive than Brexit, but over time, passions cooled.
    Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.

    And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.
    Nobody said conspiring that I noticed.

    More that Remain-leaning statisticians are allowing their own bias to cloud their judgement.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    BigRich said:

    BigRich said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.

    I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.

    You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.

    I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
    Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.
    Please read my comment above, using insulted accusations of 'Xenophobia' is not nice, or persuasive.
    I’m not trying to persuade or be nice. Till Leavers confront their pandering to xenophobia, Britain is destined to be divided and decline.
    Yet you are pointedly ignoring remain's even worse pandering to xenophobia.

    Leave quoted the government own policy and its pandering to xenophobia.
    Remain claimed a jungle of migrants would come to the UK if we voted to leave and total silence from you.
    1) you’re talking bollocks. Leave’s campaign was based around xenophobia. In response you cite one instance from Remain which it has taken even you two years to recall.

    2) Leave won. Britain has to deal with its success, not Remain’s failures.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    ydoethur said:

    Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.

    And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.

    The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).

    Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.

    If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.

    Passions cooling? Not for decades.
    We were never going to wrest control from them because they are the product of the EU not its progenitors. Politicians have spent 40 years claiming the EU could be moulded into something that was acceptable to the British and have failed both because in their arrogance they failed to understand the nature of the EU.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    This movement is only going to grow in strength.
    image

    And irrelevance...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571
    ydoethur said:

    Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.

    And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.

    The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).

    Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.

    If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.

    Passions cooling? Not for decades.
    There are miners kids who weren’t born at the time of the strike still bitter about it.

    No doubt a small but significant proportion of the electorate aren’t going to let go of Brexit, either. And if it were to coincide with an economic downturn (for whatever reason), not so small.

  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    Logs on, hoping to see some witty banter about the footie...oh ffs, not this bollocks yet again...
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Trying to get my head round how Boating is worth £45 million. His positional sense is shocking for a defender
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,545
    BigRich said:

    <
    ....

    Second, the most quoted advantage directly tied to leaving the EU is the '£350 million a week' or whatever the real number is, to me this is small but it is an advantage. The two areas that could make a big difference are International Traid, and deregulation, both of witch can now happen, but saying something can happen and will happen are very different.

    I am curese what you think are the defiant downsides? whether we can still trade with the EU tariff free is still to be determined, as is free movement/NI boarder and much more. I am not saying there are not any, but Like the 350 million a week they are IMO small and often overstated.

    the UK growth rate has been slightly less in the last year than it was in 15/16 while it is possible this is related to BREXIT, there are plenty of other reasons and its very difficult to say when the change is small, it is also possible that GDP Grouth rates ar, based on the number of new jobs created, increase in tax revenue, new inward investment, the GDP fingers are not aligning.

    ...

    In general international trade comes with costs applied: compliance with regulation, certification, national treatment, import duties, quotas etc. Then you try to facilitate trade with preferential trade agreements, customs unions, common regulatory systems, supranational legal systems to enforce a level playing field and the like. In the world trade system only the European Union combines all four pillars, although Australia / New Zealand trade gets closest.

    That means a Brexited UK is a guaranteed a downgrade on facilitation of half its trade. The extent of the downgrade is up for negotiation and depends on the extent to which the UK is willing to accept being a rule taker, supranational courts and other EU demands such as freedom of movement. One thing is certain - there can't be MORE facilitation on that trade. We're talking about degrees of damage limitation.

    Turning to the other half of trade. Through the EU, the UK benefits from the most comprehensive set of preferential trade agreements anywhere in the world. The UK will aim to retain as much of that system of existing PTAs as it can, but it will do so from a position of weakness with partners that will look to squeeze concessions out of the UK and get more access to UK markets while giving away less access to their own. Again it's about the extent of the downside. There is no potential upside here.

    The only possible upside is if the UK negotiates trade deals with countries that don't currently have one with the EU. While this is certainly possible (I expect one with China), the potential upside is a lot smaller than the downsides I have already mentioned. In practice these deals will be very one sided in favour of the other party.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787

    ydoethur said:

    Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.

    And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.

    The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).

    Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.

    If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.

    Passions cooling? Not for decades.
    We were never going to wrest control from them because they are the product of the EU not its progenitors. Politicians have spent 40 years claiming the EU could be moulded into something that was acceptable to the British and have failed both because in their arrogance they failed to understand the nature of the EU.
    Was Roy Jenkins one of them or one of us? How about Arthur Cockfield, Leon Brittan, Chris Patten or Peter Mandelson? Perhaps you’re the one who’s out of step with the British.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,061

    Logs on, hoping to see some witty banter about the footie...oh ffs, not this bollocks yet again...

    Swedes playing too deep now, and giving the Germans too much time on the ball.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571

    F1: hmm. No new markets up for about an hour. Will give it a little longer, otherwise the pre-race ramble will be up tomorrow.

    If it were to rain, Ricciardo is rather well placed, with what otherwise was a misguided high downforce setup.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    BigRich said:

    BigRich said:

    What a bunch of sad naive losers on the pro-EU march in London.

    Willing to march for a foreign anti-democratic unaccountable and dismissive bureaucracy, rather than to enhance the democracy and freedom of themselves and their own country.

    Disgraceful.

    Please don't use personal insults towards people who you disagree with.

    I may support BREXIT, but I also respect peoples right to protest, which is all they are doing.

    You and I may disagree with the Remain supporters on here, but they are not Sad, or Naive or Losers. They are people who see things differently to us, and tha'ts fine we both what this to be a free country.

    I hope that hope that one day this division will be behind us and they change their mind and see that BREXIT has been a big success, (I hope) perhaps you agree with that. But insulted are a counter productive means of perspiration I know, think of Hillary Basket of deplorables comment.
    Brexit is already a disaster because those people who hated the EU passionately decided that it was worth pandering to xenophobia to win the referendum. The country has not recovered from that, nor will it till that is acknowledged. The divisions will endure indefinitely.
    Please read my comment above, using insulted accusations of 'Xenophobia' is not nice, or persuasive.
    I’m not trying to persuade or be nice. Till Leavers confront their pandering to xenophobia, Britain is destined to be divided and decline.
    Yet you are pointedly ignoring remain's even worse pandering to xenophobia.

    Leave quoted the government own policy and its pandering to xenophobia.
    Remain claimed a jungle of migrants would come to the UK if we voted to leave and total silence from you.
    1) you’re talking bollocks. Leave’s campaign was based around xenophobia. In response you cite one instance from Remain which it has taken even you two years to recall.

    2) Leave won. Britain has to deal with its success, not Remain’s failures.
    1: Leave's campaign wasn't based around xenophobia, this is your pet peeve and yours alone. Plenty of other Remain-backers aren't obsessed about it like you. You only cite one instance too from the official Vote Leave, quoting the government's own official policy of admitting Turkey into the EU. The one instance quoted from Remain was simply pure xenophobia it wasn't quoting the other side's own proposal.

    2: Yes we do have to deal with its success, by dealing with Brexit like other Remain backers are proposing not to deal with your imagined xenophobia.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,770
    Assuming Germany v Sweden ends in a draw, I would be staggered if Sweden v Mexico ends up as anything other than a draw.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Foxy said:

    Logs on, hoping to see some witty banter about the footie...oh ffs, not this bollocks yet again...

    Swedes playing too deep now, and giving the Germans too much time on the ball.
    Swedes are looking good at the counter-attack though and are still favourites surely to progress with a draw. Germany need a victory to control their own fate in the last game.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    edited June 2018

    ydoethur said:

    Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.

    And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.

    The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).

    Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.

    If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.

    Passions cooling? Not for decades.
    We were never going to wrest control from them because they are the product of the EU not its progenitors. Politicians have spent 40 years claiming the EU could be moulded into something that was acceptable to the British and have failed both because in their arrogance they failed to understand the nature of the EU.
    Was Roy Jenkins one of them or one of us? How about Arthur Cockfield, Leon Brittan, Chris Patten or Peter Mandelson? Perhaps you’re the one who’s out of step with the British.
    Nope I can safely say it is you. Even many of those who voted Remain didn't particularly like the EU. They were just afraid of the alternative.

    You really are in a tiny minority of people in Britain who actually like the EU.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,770

    Foxy said:

    Logs on, hoping to see some witty banter about the footie...oh ffs, not this bollocks yet again...

    Swedes playing too deep now, and giving the Germans too much time on the ball.
    Swedes are looking good at the counter-attack though and are still favourites surely to progress with a draw. Germany need a victory to control their own fate in the last game.
    Tempting fate here, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Sweden got a "against the run of play" goal.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,061
    rcs1000 said:

    Assuming Germany v Sweden ends in a draw, I would be staggered if Sweden v Mexico ends up as anything other than a draw.

    Korea will not want to go home pointless. I reckon that they will not be a pushover for the Germans.
  • BigRichBigRich Posts: 3,489
    ydoethur said:

    Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.

    And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.

    The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).

    Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.

    If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.

    Passions cooling? Not for decades.
    This will not totals die for a long time, look at Norway many/most of the political class want to Join as do a good minority of the people, (I think 30-40%) but not majority and this has gone on for some time, I think Switzerland is the same, or simmiler. But it may get talked about a bit less,.

    However I think you may be less accurate about the importance, the EU is 7% of would population and 14% of GDP, both of tese % as decreasing, and distance is becoming less important as Planes get faster, ships get bigger broadband internet gets Broader(?) new harbors roads railways and airports are opening up the would would so quickly.

    I can see trade with the EU falling below 20% in the next 10 - 15 years.

  • VinnyVinny Posts: 48
    Thank heaven! At last somebody who can talk straight. Boris gets my vote!
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,387
    rcs1000 said:

    Assuming Germany v Sweden ends in a draw, I would be staggered if Sweden v Mexico ends up as anything other than a draw.

    Like, er, Germany v Austria
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,770

    rcs1000 said:

    Assuming Germany v Sweden ends in a draw, I would be staggered if Sweden v Mexico ends up as anything other than a draw.

    Like, er, Germany v Austria
    Indeed: a famously dodgy game.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    That’s a serious beard!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,770
    BigRich said:

    ydoethur said:

    Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.

    And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.

    The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).

    Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.

    If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.

    Passions cooling? Not for decades.
    This will not totals die for a long time, look at Norway many/most of the political class want to Join as do a good minority of the people, (I think 30-40%) but not majority and this has gone on for some time, I think Switzerland is the same, or simmiler. But it may get talked about a bit less,.

    However I think you may be less accurate about the importance, the EU is 7% of would population and 14% of GDP, both of tese % as decreasing, and distance is becoming less important as Planes get faster, ships get bigger broadband internet gets Broader(?) new harbors roads railways and airports are opening up the would would so quickly.

    I can see trade with the EU falling below 20% in the next 10 - 15 years.

    Absent a collapse, I think that's wishful thinking. The impact of distance on manufacturing has barely budged over time, as lean supply chains have become more important. Not an issue for services, of course.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    ydoethur said:

    Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.

    And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.

    The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).

    Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.

    If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.

    Passions cooling? Not for decades.
    We were never going to wrest control from them because they are the product of the EU not its progenitors. Politicians have spent 40 years claiming the EU could be moulded into something that was acceptable to the British and have failed both because in their arrogance they failed to understand the nature of the EU.
    Was Roy Jenkins one of them or one of us? How about Arthur Cockfield, Leon Brittan, Chris Patten or Peter Mandelson? Perhaps you’re the one who’s out of step with the British.
    Nope I can safely say it is you. Even many of those who voted Remain didn't particularly like the EU. They were just afraid of the alternative.

    You really are in a tiny minority of people in Britain who actually like the EU.
    Indeed a great many who backed Remain did so because they were afraid of the economic consequences of Leaving - something Remainers still insist will cost us dearly.

    I think if everyone agreed that we would be no better or worse off whether we remained or left so decide on the politics/culture element then Leave would have won a landslide.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,770
    edited June 2018
    @Bigrich

    Also, planes have gotten slower rather than faster...

    Edit to add: (Although they have got much more efficient.)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,742
    edited June 2018
    BigRich said:

    However I think you may be less accurate about the importance, the EU is 7% of would population and 14% of GDP, both of tese % as decreasing, and distance is becoming less important as Planes get faster, ships get bigger broadband internet gets Broader(?) new harbors roads railways and airports are opening up the would would so quickly.

    I can see trade with the EU falling below 20% in the next 10 - 15 years.

    Who do I get on with best - my next door neighbour or my friends in Cardiff? Easily the latter.

    Who do I speak to more often? Definitely the former, because they live next door.

    While the trade issue may become less pressing, it's not going to vanish and geography will dictate that Europe, as it has for three millennia, will continue to be vital to us and central to our interests.
  • ralphmalphralphmalph Posts: 2,201
    edited June 2018



    I’m not trying to persuade or be nice. Till Leavers confront their pandering to xenophobia, Britain is destined to be divided and decline.



    1) you’re talking bollocks. Leave’s campaign was based around xenophobia. In response you cite one instance from Remain which it has taken even you two years to recall.

    2) Leave won. Britain has to deal with its success, not Remain’s failures.

    The remain campaign also had the "NHS will collapse if the Eastern European nurses and doctors leave."
    Which begs the question of why are white doctors and nurses more important than doctors and nurses from other parts of the world because the implication is if they left or all the Brit doctors and Nurses left then the NHS would just carry on as normal.
    This is simply a white immigration is better than brown immigration argument from the remain campaign. "Who do you want to be treated by in hospital a whitey or other?" Vote Remain.

    The real issue here is Farage and his nasty poster was not an official campaign, I accept the Turkish stuff was. But it was the Prime Minister of the country coming out with the above stuff and the Calais stuff and that to me is really disappointing.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,787

    ydoethur said:

    Have you noticed passions cooling? Leavers seem to be getting steadily more deranged. On this thread Leavers have been speculating without foundation that Remain-leaning statisticians have been conspiring to show Britain in its worst light.

    And 100,000 Remainers have marched today in pursuit of an entirely forlorn cause.

    The problem is short of a total collapse (which would be orders of magnitude worse for us) the EU is still going to be there, a massive part of our lives and dominating our economic activity through the simple geographical fact that it's an economic superpower bang next to us. So the join/stay out issue will remain (no pun intended).

    Just as the continued pit closure programme and economic devastation of mining areas that followed have allowed no time for passions to cool.

    If we had remained it is possible we could have wrested control from the Junckers, Selmayrs, Barniers and Giscards. By leaving, we hand it to them. Their mendacity in negotiations has already shown with brutal clarity where that is likely to lead.

    Passions cooling? Not for decades.
    We were never going to wrest control from them because they are the product of the EU not its progenitors. Politicians have spent 40 years claiming the EU could be moulded into something that was acceptable to the British and have failed both because in their arrogance they failed to understand the nature of the EU.
    Was Roy Jenkins one of them or one of us? How about Arthur Cockfield, Leon Brittan, Chris Patten or Peter Mandelson? Perhaps you’re the one who’s out of step with the British.
    Nope I can safely say it is you. Even many of those who voted Remain didn't particularly like the EU. They were just afraid of the alternative.

    You really are in a tiny minority of people in Britain who actually like the EU.
    Indeed a great many who backed Remain did so because they were afraid of the economic consequences of Leaving - something Remainers still insist will cost us dearly.

    I think if everyone agreed that we would be no better or worse off whether we remained or left so decide on the politics/culture element then Leave would have won a landslide.
    That you even pose the hypothetical highlights one of the central delusions of Brexit - the idea that politics can be separated from economics and that we can leave without consequences.
This discussion has been closed.