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  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955

    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future.

    PM Boris it is then.....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    PClipp said:

    HYUFD said:

    IanB2 said:

    kle4 said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    Boris must be going down a storm in the SW.....
    Well Cornwall voted 56.5% Leave, it probably is Boris country
    https://twitter.com/InFactsOrg/status/1027581124208480256?s=19
    That does not contradict the statement at all considering the South West as a whole ie including Remain voting areas like Bristol and Cheltenham only voted 52.6% Leave ie about 5% less than just Cornwall voted Leave.

    Indeed less than 50% back a 'People's Vote' even on the poll you linked to
    Labour is heading that way:

    https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/1027790689323704320?s=19
    I know Corbyn has not backed it before, but I think he will. Either hell be swayed by such pressure supporters, and it means labour does not need to pick an option , but it wrongfoot the tories and pleases his base.

    It's like his u turn on appearing in a tv debate if May wasn't coming. Very smart move, and no one cared that he had opposed doing so once he did it. Same here. Diehard remainers won't care he opposed it if he backs it later, his core cult won't care, and labour leavers might grumble but still get to vote leave.
    The moment when Labour swings fully behind the People's Vote will be key, and I hope their timing is good. With a few Tory rebels there is then a parliamentary majority for it, and they need to work out how best to bring this to bear.
    It will NEVER happen under Corbyn.

    Corbyn is not going to risk losing Leave voters to the Tories or UKIP and see his PM hopes go with them to appease a few upper middle class Remainers led by the likes of Umunna who hates Corbyn anyway.

    As Corbyn advisers made clear in the Sunday Times recently they do not give a toss about trying to reverse Brexit or stay in the single market they care about getting Corbyn into No 10 and for that they need working class Leave votes
    Absolutely, Mr HY! Did Corbyn brief you personally on this, or was it via an intermediary?
    No it was in an Adam Boulton article and he knows rather more Corbyn advisers than you do
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    To keep Remain voters on side, all Corbyn has to do, at the moment is offer a slightly better Brexit than the tories.

    The moment he gets in power, if he gets in power that dynamic changes.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    148grss said:

    I think if Labour end up supporting a "People's Vote" Jezza will be able to spin it as "we need a vote because Chequers deal is bad" without actually saying what a good deal would look like. This will mean he can get the middle-class Remainers to stay in the party, as well as appeal to the Leaving working-class traditional Labour voters.

    It isn't a sustainable position, but it is one that will provide cover for voting against a Chequers deal alongside the likes of JRM and BoJo, pushing the country closer to either a 2nd Ref or GE. The ultimate goal not being remaining (as I don't think Jezza really cares too much one way or t'other) but to just fracture the Tories irreversibly.

    Nope. Get it through your deluded diehard Remainer head Corbyn has one of the most anti EU voting records in the Commons and he will not back a second EU referendum plus as May remains PM we will have Brexited well before the next general election anyway.

    The choice will then be single market or Chequers Deal or No Deal and Corbyn unlike Umunna will never back the single market as it would block his nationalisation plans
  • FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    I've pissed people off on Twitter by pointing out that Boris has consistently called for an amnesty for illegal immigrants (something I agree with).

    Apparently he's only ever done that to win favour with the electorate?!?
  • CookieCookie Posts: 11,182
    Foxy said:

    matt said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    House of Fraser in administration

    Pity as they do the best teas in Oxford Street and you cannot get that in an Amazon warehouse
    I haven't been in one for years, and Leicesters HoF closed last year. I cannot see a future for department stores. Even John Lewis has faltered recently.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/27/john-lewis-to-close-five-waitrose-stores-after-warning-on-profits
    Leicester’s was tired, tatty and in the wrong place. The shopping heart of the city moved and Fenwick’s was on the periphery. JL in Leicester is performing very well.
    Leicesters HoF was too close to JL! I do miss Fenwicks though, as it used to cover ranges not sold elsewhere.

    I think this is going to be a tough winter for High St retail. We really do need to level the playing field in terms of tax with the internet.
    House of Fraser positioned itself as the high-end, John-Lewis-and-above price range but without the products that justified them. High end prices but mid-range-at-best products. Whenever I went there, on the rare occasions I spotted a product I might possibly want,ny reaction was invariably 'but not at that price'. It's no wonder people stopped shopping there.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,052
    edited August 2018
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, in (possibly) surprising news, I am off to the Great British Beer Festival later on today.

    If I find them sprinkling chocolate on novelty beers, well....

    There are some excellent (and some not so excellent) coffee stouts, but even I draw the line at chocolate in beer.
    Thornbridge Cocoa Wonderland is excellent, found in Waitrose sometimes:


    http://www.thornbridgebrewery.co.uk/product.php?s=cocoa-wonderland
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    The MOE on polls this size (YouGov, ICM) is about +/- 3%.

    Ascribing reasons such as Labour antisemitism or Boris antics to movements in individual polls is either confirmation bias (i.e. wishful thinking) or spin (i.e. political manoeuvring).

    To offset the MOE in individual polls you need to use a moving average that reduces the weighting the older the poll. An exponential moving average (EMA) does just that.

    The current EMA taking into account the latest YouGov and ICM polls is a dead heat with Con and Lab each on 39%.

    Electoral Calculus shows, on current polling that the Tories would be 30 short of a majority.

    Con 296
    Lab 276
    LD 16
    UKIP 0
    Green 1
    SNP 40
    PC 3
    NI 18

    Conservative would have most seats but there would be a hung parliament with a minority Labour government supported by a C&S from the nationalists and possibly from the LDs.

    There won't be a general election anytime soon.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,742
    edited August 2018
    IanB2 said:

    Iain Dale on Boris, just out: Sky had a poll which showed that 58 per cent of younger voters thought Boris should apologise, while 57 per cent of older voters did not. Given the age profile of the Tory membership, Boris’s remarks will have gone down well with many of them. However, apart from Nadine Dorries I have yet to hear a single Tory MP support Boris on the record. In terms of getting more support from the Parliamentary Party, I don’t think the last few days have done Boris any good at all. I still remain of the view that he will find it difficult to get into the final two, but it depends on the circumstances and political atmosphere at the time. It’s all very well being attracted by Boris’s undoubted stardust, but the questions surrounding his judgement will persist.

    Fwiw hasn't Andrew 'deep thinker' Bridgen come out in support of Boris?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,742
    edited August 2018

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    SeanT said:

    is it not worth discussing the biggest ideological challenge facing the West since the end of communism?


    FPT

    1. People can be offended, if they want. It does not follow that they therefore are entitled to ask for whatever offends them to be banned.

    2. The right to free speech & free thought are far more important than the right to dress in a particular way.

    I agree with 1, but 2 sets up a false choice. There's nothing wrong with saying both that people have a right to dress how they like and other people have a right not to like it. Forms of dress are partly an expresion of opinion, and this comes close to saying that we're all in favour of freedom of speech, so long as we agree with it.

    I think Boris was being simultaneously rude and frivolous about a difficult issue, but we shouldn't ban him saying what he thinks, just roll our eyes and ignore his tiresome attention-seeking.
    The issue is whether those women, and it is women, not men, who wear these costumes are expressing a right to dress how they would like.

    Many are, some are not. Now I may regard their free decision to don what I consider to be oppressive misogynistic clothing as evidence that they have Stockholm syndrome, but they will undoubtably see it differently.

    I more often see young women in Niqab than older, and not infrequently much more conservatively dressed than their parents. I think that at least in part this is second and third generation identity confusion, much like Rastafarianism in the Seventies and Eighties. These are often people who feel incompletely British, but also incompletely in touch with the old culture, and in investigating and seeking their true identity adopt a simalcrum of archaism. How genuine this spirituality is, as opposed to political, varies. It also varies whether it is a passing phase or a dissapearance down the rabbit hole.

    My own approach is unlike Boris, I do not insult the wearers but rather support them in their education and careers. That is their best hope of escape.
    It says something about the modern UK that Boris Johnson gets more grief for criticizing medieval dress than Tulip Siddiq gets for supporting an Islamist government that abducts, tortures and kills democracy protesters.

    Generations hence, they will look back and be astonished at how fawning liberals were over Islam.
    A stunning debut.

    PB definitely needs more of this kind of contrarian original thinking.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    SeanT said:







    My own approach is unlike Boris, I do not insult the wearers but rather support them in their education and careers. That is their best hope of escape.
    How can they be supported in their education when in some Islamic schools young girls have to wear clothing which inhibits their ability to play, to do sports, when they are made to sit at the back or not allowed to learn certain subjects or told that their only role is as wives and mothers? Let’s not be naive: the burqa is one of a range of meaures by which a particular strand of extreme Islam seeks to control the women (and men) in its commumity so that, despite being British citizens, they do not integrate into British society or participate fully in it and develop views and attitudes which are often hostile to it (and can turn into something more violent). That is damaging to social cohesion and is not something we can airily dismiss just by saying that people can wear what they like.

    There is, as you say, often something deeper going on. It may just be a passing phase. But it may also be a symptom of a politically motivated apartness which is harmful.
    Those are quite justifiable concerns, which I share.
    Attacking the women who wear the garments is divisive and counterproductive if you are really concerned about those kids in schools.
    Absolutely agree. Which is why I have strongly criticised Johnson for his bullying and juvenile remarks.

    I think we should also be concerned about adult women pressured into wearing such garments. Every time there is a rebellion against a conservative Islamic regime - see Iran, for instance - one of the first things we see is women throwing off these garments. Nor is it a coincidence that one of the first acts of such regimes is to severely restrict or eliminate womens’ rights. We should not here be on the side of Islamic reactionaries.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    Barnesian said:


    Electoral Calculus shows, on current polling that the Tories would be 30 short of a majority.

    Con 296
    Lab 276
    LD 16
    UKIP 0
    Green 1
    SNP 40
    PC 3
    NI 18

    Conservative would have most seats but there would be a hung parliament with a minority Labour government supported by a C&S from the nationalists and possibly from the LDs.

    There won't be a general election anytime soon.

    That would be a hugely weak government, but it's likely that anything's going to change anytime soon either way. Both parties struggling around the 40% level, but unable to move beyond that due to both of their weaknesses.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753
    Fenster said:

    I've pissed people off on Twitter by pointing out that Boris has consistently called for an amnesty for illegal immigrants (something I agree with).

    Apparently he's only ever done that to win favour with the electorate?!?

    Our current immigration system is overwhelmed, under resourced and dying because of an unclearable backlog of cases. Amnesty is the only solution I can see and I hope that Javid will be brave enough to push for it. I hoped it might come on the back of the Windrush nonsense but that moment seems to have passed.

    Boris has shown himself unfit to be leader but he is right about an amnesty and he was equally right to explain why we disapprove of people choosing to live in our country but not in our society, even if that society is ultimately liberal enough to give them that choice.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    I'd imagine in 10-20 years , thriving cities will be far more pedestrianised than now as cars are kept out of the city centres. Dying cities will see empty high streets.

    One thing the US seems to do better is to allow towns and cities to die off as people move away to better things. In the Uk there is a reluctance and money is thrown at places which might be better off vacated.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Anyway, in (possibly) surprising news, I am off to the Great British Beer Festival later on today.

    If I find them sprinkling chocolate on novelty beers, well....

    There are some excellent (and some not so excellent) coffee stouts, but even I draw the line at chocolate in beer.
    Thornbridge Cocoa Wonderland is excellent, found in Waitrose sometimes:


    http://www.thornbridgebrewery.co.uk/product.php?s=cocoa-wonderland
    Ah, Jesus! I thought I was making a joke. What is it about the British wanting to turn every drink into bedtime cocoa - as if we are all secretly wanting to be Alan Bennett’s Mam?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730
    edited August 2018
    Barnesian said:

    Electoral Calculus shows, on current polling that the Tories would be 30 short of a majority.

    Con 296
    Lab 276
    LD 16
    UKIP 0
    Green 1
    SNP 40
    PC 3
    NI 18

    That Parliament would be better hung than a Greek god. There would barely be a viable three party never mind two party grouping.

    The problem is less that that would be the result however than the very high probability of an imminent second election that would produce a similar deadlock.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    In my experience, cities that tried to adapt to suit ‘the car’ in the 1960s are reversing these decisions.

    Examples being Coventry (building over the ring road in places) and Carlisle (who on earth decided to seperate the town from the castle with a huge dual carriageway??).

    Even in my own city of Newcastle, the central motorway split the city centre in half and has caused development problems for the area seperated from the main city centre because of it. (East Pilgrim Street - Manors for those who are interested.) it’s a good job they stopped when they did.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,080
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    Particularly the case in Los Angeles, which went from 100k or so population in 1890 to a couple of million by 1930 - depending slightly on whether it is City or County.

    Exactly at mass-production time.

    LA in the 1920s modelled a lot of the urban congestion found elsewhere.

    Fascinating subject :-).
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    I'd imagine in 10-20 years , thriving cities will be far more pedestrianised than now as cars are kept out of the city centres. Dying cities will see empty high streets.

    One thing the US seems to do better is to allow towns and cities to die off as people move away to better things. In the Uk there is a reluctance and money is thrown at places which might be better off vacated.
    Which UK cities are you proposing we vacate?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753
    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    I'd imagine in 10-20 years , thriving cities will be far more pedestrianised than now as cars are kept out of the city centres. Dying cities will see empty high streets.

    One thing the US seems to do better is to allow towns and cities to die off as people move away to better things. In the Uk there is a reluctance and money is thrown at places which might be better off vacated.
    Pedestrianised cities don't have shops selling bulky items. They may well have cafes, restaurants, cinemas, hairdressers etc. but it is a different experience and people will not go there for the bulk of what HoF was offering. FWIW I think that is largely the future of city centres, leisure rather than retail.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    First thing I noticed about LA, it has no 'centre'.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730

    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    I'd imagine in 10-20 years , thriving cities will be far more pedestrianised than now as cars are kept out of the city centres. Dying cities will see empty high streets.

    One thing the US seems to do better is to allow towns and cities to die off as people move away to better things. In the Uk there is a reluctance and money is thrown at places which might be better off vacated.
    Which UK cities are you proposing we vacate?
    If I suggest 'London' I wonder if Alastair and SeanT would be annoyed with me?
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753
    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    I'd imagine in 10-20 years , thriving cities will be far more pedestrianised than now as cars are kept out of the city centres. Dying cities will see empty high streets.

    One thing the US seems to do better is to allow towns and cities to die off as people move away to better things. In the Uk there is a reluctance and money is thrown at places which might be better off vacated.
    Which UK cities are you proposing we vacate?
    If I suggest 'London' I wonder if Alastair and SeanT would be annoyed with me?
    I thought Alastair was moving out?
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    I'd imagine in 10-20 years , thriving cities will be far more pedestrianised than now as cars are kept out of the city centres. Dying cities will see empty high streets.

    One thing the US seems to do better is to allow towns and cities to die off as people move away to better things. In the Uk there is a reluctance and money is thrown at places which might be better off vacated.
    Which UK cities are you proposing we vacate?
    None - I'd be against propping any up unnaturally.

    https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/feb/29/uk-10-of-12-most-declining-cities-are-in-north-england-rochdale-burnley-bolton

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    I'd imagine in 10-20 years , thriving cities will be far more pedestrianised than now as cars are kept out of the city centres. Dying cities will see empty high streets.

    One thing the US seems to do better is to allow towns and cities to die off as people move away to better things. In the Uk there is a reluctance and money is thrown at places which might be better off vacated.
    Pedestrianised cities don't have shops selling bulky items. They may well have cafes, restaurants, cinemas, hairdressers etc. but it is a different experience and people will not go there for the bulk of what HoF was offering. FWIW I think that is largely the future of city centres, leisure rather than retail.
    Maybe - HoF was mostly clothes though - and you can still browse then get your big screen TV delivered later.

    Nice GDP figure.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704

    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    I'd imagine in 10-20 years , thriving cities will be far more pedestrianised than now as cars are kept out of the city centres. Dying cities will see empty high streets.

    One thing the US seems to do better is to allow towns and cities to die off as people move away to better things. In the Uk there is a reluctance and money is thrown at places which might be better off vacated.
    Which UK cities are you proposing we vacate?
    Dartford would be at the top of my list (although it's a town). Dreadful place.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    I'd imagine in 10-20 years , thriving cities will be far more pedestrianised than now as cars are kept out of the city centres. Dying cities will see empty high streets.

    One thing the US seems to do better is to allow towns and cities to die off as people move away to better things. In the Uk there is a reluctance and money is thrown at places which might be better off vacated.
    Pedestrianised cities don't have shops selling bulky items. They may well have cafes, restaurants, cinemas, hairdressers etc. but it is a different experience and people will not go there for the bulk of what HoF was offering. FWIW I think that is largely the future of city centres, leisure rather than retail.
    Or specialist retail eg good clothes shops - the sort where the owner has intelligently curated the stock, offers you a cup of tea, makes the experience pleasant. But buying in shops like HoF or M&S is a dismal experience on the whole.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    In my experience, cities that tried to adapt to suit ‘the car’ in the 1960s are reversing these decisions.

    Examples being Coventry (building over the ring road in places) and Carlisle (who on earth decided to seperate the town from the castle with a huge dual carriageway??).

    Even in my own city of Newcastle, the central motorway split the city centre in half and has caused development problems for the area seperated from the main city centre because of it. (East Pilgrim Street - Manors for those who are interested.) it’s a good job they stopped when they did.
    Glasgow is probably the worst example of that I have come across. The M8 is an abomination. But cities don't need motorways to be car friendly, they need parking close to the shops. The reluctance of planners to allow parking is a blight on our High Streets.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    In my experience, cities that tried to adapt to suit ‘the car’ in the 1960s are reversing these decisions.

    Examples being Coventry (building over the ring road in places) and Carlisle (who on earth decided to seperate the town from the castle with a huge dual carriageway??).

    Even in my own city of Newcastle, the central motorway split the city centre in half and has caused development problems for the area seperated from the main city centre because of it. (East Pilgrim Street - Manors for those who are interested.) it’s a good job they stopped when they did.
    Glasgow is probably the worst example of that I have come across. The M8 is an abomination. But cities don't need motorways to be car friendly, they need parking close to the shops. The reluctance of planners to allow parking is a blight on our High Streets.
    I'd disagree - car free city centres are the future.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730
    DavidL said:

    ydoethur said:

    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    I'd imagine in 10-20 years , thriving cities will be far more pedestrianised than now as cars are kept out of the city centres. Dying cities will see empty high streets.

    One thing the US seems to do better is to allow towns and cities to die off as people move away to better things. In the Uk there is a reluctance and money is thrown at places which might be better off vacated.
    Which UK cities are you proposing we vacate?
    If I suggest 'London' I wonder if Alastair and SeanT would be annoyed with me?
    I thought Alastair was moving out?
    I think it's more he'd say I was a typical chippy provincial sneering at London for being succcessful.

    Which isn't true, really. I've no objection to it being rich and successful. The only thing I've got against it is that it's such a horrible place.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,232
    I see Frank Field has penned an article in the Graun about Uber and the living wage.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/10/new-york-uber-uk-workers-living-wage-minimum-standards-gig-economy#comments

    BTL they're tearing him a new one.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,742
    SCons should probably collectively suspend all their social media accounts.

    'Scottish Tory councillor blasted after comparing Muslim women in burkas to PATIO UMBRELLAS'

    https://tinyurl.com/ybj6e8rm

    Puzzled why he thinks sharing a 'laugh at the foreigns' joke is supporting British troops.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,211
    UK GDP Growth in second quarter was 0.4%. Wasn't that Max's prediction?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    DavidL said:

    Fenster said:

    I've pissed people off on Twitter by pointing out that Boris has consistently called for an amnesty for illegal immigrants (something I agree with).

    Apparently he's only ever done that to win favour with the electorate?!?

    Our current immigration system is overwhelmed, under resourced and dying because of an unclearable backlog of cases. Amnesty is the only solution I can see and I hope that Javid will be brave enough to push for it. I hoped it might come on the back of the Windrush nonsense but that moment seems to have passed.

    Boris has shown himself unfit to be leader but he is right about an amnesty and he was equally right to explain why we disapprove of people choosing to live in our country but not in our society, even if that society is ultimately liberal enough to give them that choice.
    Until you see a politician who is 'brave' enough to talk about the Burqa who then follows it up with 'and so I support abolishing religiously segregated schooling' I'll keep ascribing it to courting the racist vote rather than wanting to do something about it.

    Of course, no politician will do so as it is a sure fire vote loser so they'll keep on allowing the foundation of non-integration and self-segregation to continue as they like being elected.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    In my experience, cities that tried to adapt to suit ‘the car’ in the 1960s are reversing these decisions.

    Examples being Coventry (building over the ring road in places) and Carlisle (who on earth decided to seperate the town from the castle with a huge dual carriageway??).

    Even in my own city of Newcastle, the central motorway split the city centre in half and has caused development problems for the area seperated from the main city centre because of it. (East Pilgrim Street - Manors for those who are interested.) it’s a good job they stopped when they did.
    Glasgow is probably the worst example of that I have come across. The M8 is an abomination. But cities don't need motorways to be car friendly, they need parking close to the shops. The reluctance of planners to allow parking is a blight on our High Streets.
    Agreed. They ought to allow free parking for, say, the first hour or so. So you can go shopping, have a coffee etc. Many older people and families might then be more willing to go there. Shopping without a car when you are older or have kids is a bit of a nightmare - one reason why big malls and online retailing have become popular. Making it difficult to go into town is not going to help and Tuscan-style pedestrianised urban centres don’t work everywhere.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    In my experience, cities that tried to adapt to suit ‘the car’ in the 1960s are reversing these decisions.

    Examples being Coventry (building over the ring road in places) and Carlisle (who on earth decided to seperate the town from the castle with a huge dual carriageway??).

    Even in my own city of Newcastle, the central motorway split the city centre in half and has caused development problems for the area seperated from the main city centre because of it. (East Pilgrim Street - Manors for those who are interested.) it’s a good job they stopped when they did.
    The road in Carlisle is not really grand enough to call it a dual carriageway. Sure its 4 lanes but it is not 70 miles an hour or anything like that. There is plenty of pedestrian access from the city centre to the castle.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753
    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    I'd imagine in 10-20 years , thriving cities will be far more pedestrianised than now as cars are kept out of the city centres. Dying cities will see empty high streets.

    One thing the US seems to do better is to allow towns and cities to die off as people move away to better things. In the Uk there is a reluctance and money is thrown at places which might be better off vacated.
    Pedestrianised cities don't have shops selling bulky items. They may well have cafes, restaurants, cinemas, hairdressers etc. but it is a different experience and people will not go there for the bulk of what HoF was offering. FWIW I think that is largely the future of city centres, leisure rather than retail.
    Maybe - HoF was mostly clothes though - and you can still browse then get your big screen TV delivered later.

    Nice GDP figure.
    Somewhat better than the EZ average. No doubt we will see lots of headlines about that.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    Fenster said:

    I've pissed people off on Twitter by pointing out that Boris has consistently called for an amnesty for illegal immigrants (something I agree with).

    Apparently he's only ever done that to win favour with the electorate?!?

    Our current immigration system is overwhelmed, under resourced and dying because of an unclearable backlog of cases. Amnesty is the only solution I can see and I hope that Javid will be brave enough to push for it. I hoped it might come on the back of the Windrush nonsense but that moment seems to have passed.

    Boris has shown himself unfit to be leader but he is right about an amnesty and he was equally right to explain why we disapprove of people choosing to live in our country but not in our society, even if that society is ultimately liberal enough to give them that choice.
    Until you see a politician who is 'brave' enough to talk about the Burqa who then follows it up with 'and so I support abolishing religiously segregated schooling' I'll keep ascribing it to courting the racist vote rather than wanting to do something about it.

    Of course, no politician will do so as it is a sure fire vote loser so they'll keep on allowing the foundation of non-integration and self-segregation to continue as they like being elected.
    I’m coming round to the idea that we will have to do something like this or be very much stricter about enforcing a national secular curriculum in all schools.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    SCons should probably collectively suspend all their social media accounts.

    'Scottish Tory councillor blasted after comparing Muslim women in burkas to PATIO UMBRELLAS'

    https://tinyurl.com/ybj6e8rm

    Puzzled why he thinks sharing a 'laugh at the foreigns' joke is supporting British troops.

    At this rate it would be easier to list the SCons councillors who don't have a racist/mysoginistic/religously-bigoted twitter account.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730
    edited August 2018
    Cyclefree said:

    Agreed. They ought to allow free parking for, say, the first hour or so. So you can go shopping, have a coffee etc. Many older people and families might then be more willing to go there. Shopping without a car when you are older or have kids is a bit of a nightmare - one reason why big malls and online retailing have become popular. Making it difficult to go into town is not going to help and Tuscan-style pedestrianised urban centres don’t work everywhere.

    Ten years ago one of the few advantages of Gloucester as a shopping centre was that the main park and ride car park at St Oswald's was within easy walking distance of the city centre if you took a couple of short cuts. As you only had to pay to go on the bus itself, it gave you free parking for as long as you wanted it.

    Then the council wondered why the P+R was running at a loss, and closed it down. As a result, you have to pay £2.40 to park at Blackfriars for an hour.

    And then the council were surprised to learn people were going to Cheltenham, or Tewkesbury, or even Cribb's Causeway in Bristol, where for the same parking price you get a much better range of shops.

    Lack of joined up thinking there.

    Edit - although come to think of it Cannock is no better. They match prices and then wonder why everyone goes to Stafford or particularly Lichfield, which has an excellent shopping centre literally 200 yards from two thousand parking spaces for 90p an hour.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:
    Actually the manufacturing fall was reduced by a sizeable rise of 0.4% in the last month of the period - June.

    Must try harder Scott..
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    TGOHF said:
    Did Johnson really intend it as a joke? Or is this Atkinson’s spin on it?
  • PaganPagan Posts: 259
    Foxy said:

    matt said:

    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    House of Fraser in administration

    Pity as they do the best teas in Oxford Street and you cannot get that in an Amazon warehouse
    I haven't been in one for years, and Leicesters HoF closed last year. I cannot see a future for department stores. Even John Lewis has faltered recently.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/jun/27/john-lewis-to-close-five-waitrose-stores-after-warning-on-profits
    Leicester’s was tired, tatty and in the wrong place. The shopping heart of the city moved and Fenwick’s was on the periphery. JL in Leicester is performing very well.
    Leicesters HoF was too close to JL! I do miss Fenwicks though, as it used to cover ranges not sold elsewhere.

    I think this is going to be a tough winter for High St retail. We really do need to level the playing field in terms of tax with the internet.
    Why must we level the playing field? If people dont want to use their high street shops then that is just too tough for high street shops and they should be allowed to die. The high street problem is far far greater than just prices and largely down to councils making
    1) parking difficult
    2) bleeding businesses dry from high business rates

    High streets need a new direction and should orientate towards services, hairdressing, coffee shops etc. Make high streets more a social space and people may wish to go there.

    Personally havent been to my high street in years and frankly I am glad npt to have to. A view shared by many. Why the hell should we have to pay more just so people like you who have a nostalgia for a 1950's model of retail can feel good?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    TGOHF said:

    Actually the manufacturing fall was reduced by a sizeable rise of 0.4% in the last month of the period - June.

    Must try harder Scott..

    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1027841600158920705
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,879

    I see Frank Field has penned an article in the Graun about Uber and the living wage.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/aug/10/new-york-uber-uk-workers-living-wage-minimum-standards-gig-economy#comments

    BTL they're tearing him a new one.

    It's a good piece IMO. The state needs to start grappling with some of these issues.
    Current rules on self-employment need updating for the modern world.

    Uber is a special case in that they are prepared to run their company at an enormous loss. Personally I don't think there is much chance of them becoming profitable, but in the meantime they are totally distorting the market, in the hope that they can establish some kind of monopoly (also undesirable).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,753
    Cyclefree said:

    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    Fenster said:

    I've pissed people off on Twitter by pointing out that Boris has consistently called for an amnesty for illegal immigrants (something I agree with).

    Apparently he's only ever done that to win favour with the electorate?!?

    Our current immigration system is overwhelmed, under resourced and dying because of an unclearable backlog of cases. Amnesty is the only solution I can see and I hope that Javid will be brave enough to push for it. I hoped it might come on the back of the Windrush nonsense but that moment seems to have passed.

    Boris has shown himself unfit to be leader but he is right about an amnesty and he was equally right to explain why we disapprove of people choosing to live in our country but not in our society, even if that society is ultimately liberal enough to give them that choice.
    Until you see a politician who is 'brave' enough to talk about the Burqa who then follows it up with 'and so I support abolishing religiously segregated schooling' I'll keep ascribing it to courting the racist vote rather than wanting to do something about it.

    Of course, no politician will do so as it is a sure fire vote loser so they'll keep on allowing the foundation of non-integration and self-segregation to continue as they like being elected.
    I’m coming round to the idea that we will have to do something like this or be very much stricter about enforcing a national secular curriculum in all schools.
    I think we should be looking more carefully at what the French have done in this area.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    TGOHF said:
    Did Johnson really intend it as a joke? Or is this Atkinson’s spin on it?
    ydoethur said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Agreed. They ought to allow free parking for, say, the first hour or so. So you can go shopping, have a coffee etc. Many older people and families might then be more willing to go there. Shopping without a car when you are older or have kids is a bit of a nightmare - one reason why big malls and online retailing have become popular. Making it difficult to go into town is not going to help and Tuscan-style pedestrianised urban centres don’t work everywhere.

    Ten years ago one of the few advantages of Gloucester as a shopping centre was that the main park and ride car park at St Oswald's was within easy walking distance of the city centre if you took a couple of short cuts. As you only had to pay to go on the bus itself, it gave you free parking for as long as you wanted it.

    Then the council wondered why the P+R was running at a loss, and closed it down. As a result, you have to pay £2.40 to park at Blackfriars for an hour.

    And then the council were surprised to learn people were going to Cheltenham, or Tewkesbury, or even Cribb's Causeway in Bristol, where for the same parking price you get a much better range of shops.

    Lack of joined up thinking there.

    Edit - although come to think of it Cannock is no better. They match prices and then wonder why everyone goes to Stafford or particularly Lichfield, which has an excellent shopping centre literally 200 yards from two thousand parking spaces for 90p an hour.
    I was in Lichfield a couple of days ago. Went to see Shugborough on my way down to London for a meeting.

    One of the many advantages of my freelance lifestyle is that I can visit more bits of the country because I have time, rather than rush everywhere. Next week, I’m planning to visit somewhere in Derbyshire en route to the Lakes. Kedleston Hall maybe? Any recommendations welcome!
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    TGOHF said:

    Actually the manufacturing fall was reduced by a sizeable rise of 0.4% in the last month of the period - June.

    Must try harder Scott..

    https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1027841600158920705
    Lucky the last month of the quarter saw an uptick then isn't it ? Well done June.

  • New Thread

  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    I'd imagine in 10-20 years , thriving cities will be far more pedestrianised than now as cars are kept out of the city centres. Dying cities will see empty high streets.

    One thing the US seems to do better is to allow towns and cities to die off as people move away to better things. In the Uk there is a reluctance and money is thrown at places which might be better off vacated.
    Pedestrianised cities don't have shops selling bulky items. They may well have cafes, restaurants, cinemas, hairdressers etc. but it is a different experience and people will not go there for the bulk of what HoF was offering. FWIW I think that is largely the future of city centres, leisure rather than retail.
    Maybe - HoF was mostly clothes though - and you can still browse then get your big screen TV delivered later.

    Nice GDP figure.
    Somewhat better than the EZ average. No doubt we will see lots of headlines about that.
    EZ GDP growth for 2nd Q was 0.3% compared with 0.4% for the UK.
    EZ GDP growth for 1st H was 0.7% compared with 0.5% for the UK.

    Statistics - it's the way you spin them.

  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    Fenster said:

    I've pissed people off on Twitter by pointing out that Boris has consistently called for an amnesty for illegal immigrants (something I agree with).

    Apparently he's only ever done that to win favour with the electorate?!?

    Our current immigration system is overwhelmed, under resourced and dying because of an unclearable backlog of cases. Amnesty is the only solution I can see and I hope that Javid will be brave enough to push for it. I hoped it might come on the back of the Windrush nonsense but that moment seems to have passed.

    Boris has shown himself unfit to be leader but he is right about an amnesty and he was equally right to explain why we disapprove of people choosing to live in our country but not in our society, even if that society is ultimately liberal enough to give them that choice.
    Until you see a politician who is 'brave' enough to talk about the Burqa who then follows it up with 'and so I support abolishing religiously segregated schooling' I'll keep ascribing it to courting the racist vote rather than wanting to do something about it.

    Of course, no politician will do so as it is a sure fire vote loser so they'll keep on allowing the foundation of non-integration and self-segregation to continue as they like being elected.
    I’m coming round to the idea that we will have to do something like this or be very much stricter about enforcing a national secular curriculum in all schools.
    I think we should be looking more carefully at what the French have done in this area.
    Not sure about that. Their laicite policy has not really avoided issues with aggressive Islamist ghettoisation, though there may be specific French issues for why that is so. We should study what they have done but not assume that theirs is the model to copy.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    Cyclefree said:

    TGOHF said:
    Did Johnson really intend it as a joke? Or is this Atkinson’s spin on it?
    I don't believe Johnson really thought that a Burka could be mistaken for a letterbox! He picked an amusing image. It was a joke. People laughed because it resonated. That's how jokes work.
  • 148grss148grss Posts: 3,630
    HYUFD said:

    148grss said:

    I think if Labour end up supporting a "People's Vote" Jezza will be able to spin it as "we need a vote because Chequers deal is bad" without actually saying what a good deal would look like. This will mean he can get the middle-class Remainers to stay in the party, as well as appeal to the Leaving working-class traditional Labour voters.

    It isn't a sustainable position, but it is one that will provide cover for voting against a Chequers deal alongside the likes of JRM and BoJo, pushing the country closer to either a 2nd Ref or GE. The ultimate goal not being remaining (as I don't think Jezza really cares too much one way or t'other) but to just fracture the Tories irreversibly.

    Nope. Get it through your deluded diehard Remainer head Corbyn has one of the most anti EU voting records in the Commons and he will not back a second EU referendum plus as May remains PM we will have Brexited well before the next general election anyway.

    The choice will then be single market or Chequers Deal or No Deal and Corbyn unlike Umunna will never back the single market as it would block his nationalisation plans
    I don't think Corbyn wants to stay in the EU or the SM. I think he wants to be in government. And the best way to do that is to fracture the Tories. And the best way to do that is to foil any Brexit deal by the government. Which he can do without annoying Leave voting Labour leaning voters by saying "Chequers is bad", and by pandering to Remainers by saying "we should have a people's vote on the terms of leaving and/or remaining".
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Alistair said:

    DavidL said:

    Fenster said:

    I've pissed people off on Twitter by pointing out that Boris has consistently called for an amnesty for illegal immigrants (something I agree with).

    Apparently he's only ever done that to win favour with the electorate?!?

    Our current immigration system is overwhelmed, under resourced and dying because of an unclearable backlog of cases. Amnesty is the only solution I can see and I hope that Javid will be brave enough to push for it. I hoped it might come on the back of the Windrush nonsense but that moment seems to have passed.

    Boris has shown himself unfit to be leader but he is right about an amnesty and he was equally right to explain why we disapprove of people choosing to live in our country but not in our society, even if that society is ultimately liberal enough to give them that choice.
    Until you see a politician who is 'brave' enough to talk about the Burqa who then follows it up with 'and so I support abolishing religiously segregated schooling' I'll keep ascribing it to courting the racist vote rather than wanting to do something about it.

    Of course, no politician will do so as it is a sure fire vote loser so they'll keep on allowing the foundation of non-integration and self-segregation to continue as they like being elected.
    I’m coming round to the idea that we will have to do something like this or be very much stricter about enforcing a national secular curriculum in all schools.
    I think we should be looking more carefully at what the French have done in this area.
    I totally agree.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603
    edited August 2018
    Barnesian said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    I'd imagine in 10-20 years , thriving cities will be far more pedestrianised than now as cars are kept out of the city centres. Dying cities will see empty high streets.

    One thing the US seems to do better is to allow towns and cities to die off as people move away to better things. In the Uk there is a reluctance and money is thrown at places which might be better off vacated.
    Pedestrianised cities don't have shops selling bulky items. They may well have cafes, restaurants, cinemas, hairdressers etc. but it is a different experience and people will not go there for the bulk of what HoF was offering. FWIW I think that is largely the future of city centres, leisure rather than retail.
    Maybe - HoF was mostly clothes though - and you can still browse then get your big screen TV delivered later.

    Nice GDP figure.
    Somewhat better than the EZ average. No doubt we will see lots of headlines about that.
    EZ GDP growth for 2nd Q was 0.3% compared with 0.4% for the UK.
    EZ GDP growth for 1st H was 0.7% compared with 0.5% for the UK.

    Statistics - it's the way you spin them.

    0.6% for the UK for H1.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,080
    MaxPB said:

    Barnesian said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    These cities are basically built around the car. Our cities are not (which causes problems of course). We will have serious legacy issues in our town centres from these shops.
    I'd imagine in 10-20 years , thriving cities will be far more pedestrianised than now as cars are kept out of the city centres. Dying cities will see empty high streets.

    One thing the US seems to do better is to allow towns and cities to die off as people move away to better things. In the Uk there is a reluctance and money is thrown at places which might be better off vacated.
    Pedestrianised cities don't have shops selling bulky items. They may well have cafes, restaurants, cinemas, hairdressers etc. but it is a different experience and people will not go there for the bulk of what HoF was offering. FWIW I think that is largely the future of city centres, leisure rather than retail.
    Maybe - HoF was mostly clothes though - and you can still browse then get your big screen TV delivered later.

    Nice GDP figure.
    Somewhat better than the EZ average. No doubt we will see lots of headlines about that.
    EZ GDP growth for 2nd Q was 0.3% compared with 0.4% for the UK.
    EZ GDP growth for 1st H was 0.7% compared with 0.5% for the UK.

    Statistics - it's the way you spin them.

    0.6% for the UK for H1.
    But but but we are the sick man of Europe with the slowest growing economy of all the G7 and .. but but but we are going off a Cliff and all going to starve and the diabetics are all going to die.

    Henny-Penny and Goosey-Loosey and the Rabbithole Remainers all said so, so it must be true and anybody who disagrees must be deranged, thick racist people.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    .

    ydoethur said:

    felix said:

    ydoethur said:

    Foxy said:

    Jezza is crap.

    Sleazy, broken Labour on the slide.
    Will May return from prostrating herself in front of Macron in order to call a snap election?
    https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1025478178163380224?s=19
    That's a really corny joke.
    Ever swift with your rye comments.

    Oops I seed you beet me to it.
    It's sweet of you to take it graciously. I eared you might be upset.
    You are a cereal offender when it comes to competitive punning, but it would go against the grain to take offence.
    It’s good to harvest all the compliments you can before you are forced to prune your ambition. But I think you’ve threshed him this time.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    DavidL said:

    matt said:

    DavidL said:

    In other news this is another significant blow to the High Street: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45140874

    In many towns and cities the last of the large, slightly old fashioned general department stores are run by HoF. The HoF store in Dundee High Street closed 20+ years ago. It is still not fully reoccupied.

    You have to be very good to survive and exceptional to prosper as a general goods store. House of Fraser is/was neither. In Nottingham for example in the same tired Intu one has both. The differences were stark.

    People had the same nostalgia about Woolworths. Nostalgia is the key word though.
    I think latterly they lived on the pop up franchise/concessions within them which didn't do a lot to disperse the general perception of chaos and disorganisation. Way more than half their staff were working on concessions.

    It can be done, Debenhams seem to do it quite well, but they tend to have purpose built modern accommodation as opposed to these old behemoths from the last century or even the one before. What will we do with these buildings? It can really bring the whole street down.
    A glance at the US is often a guide to our future. Some cities like LA don't really have identifiable centers (sic). In my limited experience, the idea of a high street seems fairly foreign there - instead, there are still lots of smallish shops sprawled around, plus some luxury malls.
    That’s because of the way they sprawled rapidly rather than growing organically.

    Our future is Basingstoke
  • MattWMattW Posts: 18,080
    Nigelb said:
    Bank robbers below. There is a more serious point about full face coverings in security settings .... which is precisely the same as motorcycle helmets and balaclavas in banks. Jack Straw was right on that.

    There is also a serious point about the various bombers who have dressed up in Burkhas.

    As I see it, the "letter box" image was provocative, but a good vivid illustration of what a Burkha can do to limit others' perception of a human being who wears, or is made to wear, one.

    IMO The Tory enquiry will fall flat, because May and Lewis have already compromised the required objectivity. The stuff from Soubry et al is just tactical backstabbing - most of them have recent very similar skeletons in their cupboards. They should all shut up and let the attention stay on Corbyn's collapse.

    https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/robbers-dressed-up-burkas-steal-13003217
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    148grss said:

    HYUFD said:

    148grss said:

    I think if Labour end up supporting a "People's Vote" Jezza will be able to spin it as "we need a vote because Chequers deal is bad" without actually saying what a good deal would look like. This will mean he can get the middle-class Remainers to stay in the party, as well as appeal to the Leaving working-class traditional Labour voters.

    It isn't a sustainable position, but it is one that will provide cover for voting against a Chequers deal alongside the likes of JRM and BoJo, pushing the country closer to either a 2nd Ref or GE. The ultimate goal not being remaining (as I don't think Jezza really cares too much one way or t'other) but to just fracture the Tories irreversibly.

    Nope. Get it through your deluded diehard Remainer head Corbyn has one of the most anti EU voting records in the Commons and he will not back a second EU referendum plus as May remains PM we will have Brexited well before the next general election anyway.

    The choice will then be single market or Chequers Deal or No Deal and Corbyn unlike Umunna will never back the single market as it would block his nationalisation plans
    I don't think Corbyn wants to stay in the EU or the SM. I think he wants to be in government. And the best way to do that is to fracture the Tories. And the best way to do that is to foil any Brexit deal by the government. Which he can do without annoying Leave voting Labour leaning voters by saying "Chequers is bad", and by pandering to Remainers by saying "we should have a people's vote on the terms of leaving and/or remaining".
    Which would fracture Labour just as much as the Tories
This discussion has been closed.