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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Men of Honour?

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited August 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Men of Honour?

In Peter Hennessey’s Reflections radio series, Margaret Beckett was asked why she abandoned the Catholic faith of her childhood.  The event which crystallised her disenchantment was John Freeman asking Cardinal Heenan what one word summed up the Church.  Margaret waited, expecting something like “charity”or “love”. The Cardinal’s answer was “Authority”.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Super thread as usual.
  • Oh was that a primus inter pares.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,584
    edited August 2018

    Oh was that a primus inter pares.

    Probably because someone has messed up access to comments again.

    It's a vanilla kind of first.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    FPT -
    Scott_P said:
    Corbyn clearly has no honour.

    His unbelievable denial of the day is so inept

    The Labour Party spin machine has been issuing an obvious lie for the past day

    And if you want to pursue peaceful dialogue, you have to talk to both sides in a conflict. Not just your mates.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    edited August 2018
    “It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorist, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslim……."

    Really? That strikes me as an absurd thing to say.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    There's nothing to be gained politically from honourable behaviour. In politics, no good deed ever goes unpunished.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776

    There's nothing to be gained politically from honourable behaviour. In politics, no good deed ever goes unpunished.

    Do you think that is why our political class so rarely perform good deeds? Self preservation? Or are the do gooders simply weeded out?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,774

    There's nothing to be gained politically from honourable behaviour. In politics, no good deed ever goes unpunished.

    Being purely unprincipled is ultimately self-defeating. Being so principled that you can never compromise with bad people means that you will achieve nothing.

    The trick is to work out when your principles need to be compromised.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    DavidL said:

    “It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorist, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslim……."

    Really? That strikes me as an absurd thing to say.

    It is not me saying it but a leading Arab writer in an Egyptian publication. At the time he wrote it (in 2004) there had been a number of grotesque terrorist attacks, of which Beslan was the culmination. The whole article is well worth reading and, if you are interested, I can send you a copy. I do not know whether it is available online.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,774

    One good rule of thumb is always to distrust people in any organisation who are holier than thou, whether in the religious sense, or in the politically correct secular sense.

    They will always be compensating for something.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    I can't say too much for professional reasons, but lets just say i'm going somewhere tomorrow which is 'interesting' politicalwise.....
  • I can't say too much for professional reasons, but lets just say i'm going somewhere tomorrow which is 'interesting' politicalwise.....

    Trump Towers?
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704

    I can't say too much for professional reasons, but lets just say i'm going somewhere tomorrow which is 'interesting' politicalwise.....

    Trump Towers?
    No, this is work, much closer to home.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    As far as I can see from the photo, he is only one of two people holding the wreath. He then joined in some prayers. That's an odd way of not being involved in a ceremony.

    Still, as we see with him and Trump blatant lying is no bar to electoral success.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503

    I can't say too much for professional reasons, but lets just say i'm going somewhere tomorrow which is 'interesting' politicalwise.....

    The bunker from where Jezza will be directing our post neo-liberal economy?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    I can't say too much for professional reasons, but lets just say i'm going somewhere tomorrow which is 'interesting' politicalwise.....

    You're not laying a wreath in.....?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Good article, Miss Cyclefree. It reminds me a bit of King John. He often, especially as a prince, came to short term arrangements, frequently frittering away critical territory and fortresses in what today is France, in return for a temporary benefit and creating for himself the long term reputation of capitulation, cowardice and ill-judgement.

    [And that's before we get onto starving prisoners of war to death, extortion, and the odd spot of sexual molestation].
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704

    I can't say too much for professional reasons, but lets just say i'm going somewhere tomorrow which is 'interesting' politicalwise.....

    You're not laying a wreath in.....?
    I might be present for it...
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    “It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorist, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslim……."

    Really? That strikes me as an absurd thing to say.

    It is not me saying it but a leading Arab writer in an Egyptian publication. At the time he wrote it (in 2004) there had been a number of grotesque terrorist attacks, of which Beslan was the culmination. The whole article is well worth reading and, if you are interested, I can send you a copy. I do not know whether it is available online.
    I appreciate that this is a quote but the number of terrorist events in 2004 was remarkable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_2004

    Many were Muslim, especially the bigger events like Madrid, but many were not. Some are quite ambiguous. Eg Chechens blowing up the Moscow underground. They might have been Muslims but it is doubtful that was their motivation.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961

    There's nothing to be gained politically from honourable behaviour. In politics, no good deed ever goes unpunished.

    Ask Ma Beckett.....
  • FPT

    TOPPING said:

    Another great day on PB when PB's bien pensant (let's guess, largely) white, comfortable, millions of miles from seeing them every or indeed any day posters discuss the ins and outs and traditions of Islam and the UK's muslims.

    Tell me about it.

    I’m fully expecting Philip Thompson to be able recite the Shahada.
    Not at all. I am an atheist or what I believe from my understanding of Islam can be called a heretic or kafir. I don't care all that much about the ins and outs of fanatical medieval mythologies.

    I do care however about equality. Specifically I oppose equally any fundamentalist cults that say women, gays etc are second class citizens or chattel. Whether that be in the guise of Muslims, Christians (like Westboro Baptist Church) or any other medieval garbage.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    edited August 2018

    I can't say too much for professional reasons, but lets just say i'm going somewhere tomorrow which is 'interesting' politicalwise.....

    House of Commons and House of Lords.

    The buildings neeed repair. £bns of contracts to be had
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    DavidL said:

    Cyclefree said:

    DavidL said:

    “It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorist, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslim……."

    Really? That strikes me as an absurd thing to say.

    It is not me saying it but a leading Arab writer in an Egyptian publication. At the time he wrote it (in 2004) there had been a number of grotesque terrorist attacks, of which Beslan was the culmination. The whole article is well worth reading and, if you are interested, I can send you a copy. I do not know whether it is available online.
    I appreciate that this is a quote but the number of terrorist events in 2004 was remarkable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_2004

    Many were Muslim, especially the bigger events like Madrid, but many were not. Some are quite ambiguous. Eg Chechens blowing up the Moscow underground. They might have been Muslims but it is doubtful that was their motivation.
    The whole article is very interesting and moving. It is an attack on those whom he feels have perverted the gentle peaceful Islam he was brought up with resulting in some young men behaving in appallingly violent ways and a plea to go back to the religion he knows and loves. I did not include it to discuss terrorism but because his shame at how his religion had been perverted echoes my own feelings about how my religion has been abused by far too many priests for their own selfish and sadistic desires and that there was a similar culture of unchallengeable authority and denial which made matters so much worse.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    I'm with @Dura_Ace on this one.

    Ask 20 people on the street about the Munich Massacre and no one will have a clue what it was. Something about football, perhaps.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

    I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.
  • TOPPING said:

    I'm with @Dura_Ace on this one.

    Ask 20 people on the street about the Munich Massacre and no one will have a clue what it was. Something about football, perhaps.

    In our office when you ask the Millenials about the Munich massacre that’s to do when Manchester United had a team wiped out in a plane accident.

    As an aside those feckers don’t know how easy they have it.

    One of them looked at me blankly when I told them when I was texting at their age I had to press ‘7’
    four times to get an s.
  • The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited August 2018
    Corbyn - there really are no words for this guy. His actions today, and those who have attempted to defend him reminds me of this thread:
    https://twitter.com/gilofthepeople/status/1027473492109914112?s=21
    https://twitter.com/gilofthepeople/status/1027476710751698944?s=21
    https://twitter.com/gilofthepeople/status/1027477071784763392?s=21
    Meanwhile this is pretty interesting:
    https://twitter.com/pjtheeconomist/status/1028965888299548677?s=21
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    FPT

    TOPPING said:

    Another great day on PB when PB's bien pensant (let's guess, largely) white, comfortable, millions of miles from seeing them every or indeed any day posters discuss the ins and outs and traditions of Islam and the UK's muslims.

    Tell me about it.

    I’m fully expecting Philip Thompson to be able recite the Shahada.
    Not at all. I am an atheist or what I believe from my understanding of Islam can be called a heretic or kafir. I don't care all that much about the ins and outs of fanatical medieval mythologies.

    I do care however about equality. Specifically I oppose equally any fundamentalist cults that say women, gays etc are second class citizens or chattel. Whether that be in the guise of Muslims, Christians (like Westboro Baptist Church) or any other medieval garbage.
    @Topping also said: "You and David sound like your parents."

    Both my parents were immigrants. And knew something about what integration into British society means in practice, as do I as someone whose mother tongue is not English, who belongs to a minority religion (in Britain anyway) and who spent most of my childhood living in two countries and spending a lot of time in a third.

    On the previous thread, we were discussing the effect on our society [of practices by some Muslims], of which they are a part. No man being an island and all that. Or perhaps @Topping doesn't believe in that, which would be ironic, given the subject matter.

    The attitude of men to women's dress and what it says about their view of women is something that affects all women, whatever their religion or culture is.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,785

    I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

    I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.

    My BBC mobile app is simply not running the story, except in the newspaper review.
  • I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

    I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.

    The thing that gets me is that Corbyn wrote about it at the time in The Morning Star.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704

    I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

    I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.

    The thing that gets me is that Corbyn wrote about it at the time in The Morning Star.
    At that point Corbyn's support for terrorists was a feature, not a bug.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820

    I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

    I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.

    The thing that gets me is that Corbyn wrote about it at the time in The Morning Star.
    At that point Corbyn's support for terrorists was a feature, not a bug.
    It still is.
  • Pro_Rata said:

    I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

    I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.

    My BBC mobile app is simply not running the story, except in the newspaper review.
    Yes, knowing about this story seems to all depend on whether you read the Mail or watch Sky News.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    TOPPING said:

    I'm with @Dura_Ace on this one.

    Ask 20 people on the street about the Munich Massacre and no one will have a clue what it was. Something about football, perhaps.

    In our office when you ask the Millenials about the Munich massacre that’s to do when Manchester United had a team wiped out in a plane accident.

    As an aside those feckers don’t know how easy they have it.

    One of them looked at me blankly when I told them when I was texting at their age I had to press ‘7’
    four times to get an s.
    Tell them that it's the same as putting a wreath on the grave of the terrorists who shot 80 odd people at a pop concert in Paris (and were shot by the French police) and tried to blow people up at a football stadium. Or on the grave of men who killed a load of drinkers in Borough Market (and were killed by the British police). Would they like the Leader of the Opposition to do that?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited August 2018
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT

    TOPPING said:

    Aims.

    Tell me about it.

    I’m fully expecting Philip Thompson to be able recite the Shahada.
    Not at all. I am an atheist or what I believe from my understanding of Islam can be called a heretic or kafir. I don't care all that much about the ins and outs of fanatical medieval mythologies.

    I do care however about equality. Specifically I oppose equally any fundamentalist cults that say women, gays etc are second class citizens or chattel. Whether that be in the guise of Muslims, Christians (like Westboro Baptist Church) or any other medieval garbage.
    @Topping also said: "You and David sound like your parents."

    Both my parents were immigrants. And knew something about what integration into British society means in practice, as do I as someone whose mother tongue is not English, who belongs to a minority religion (in Britain anyway) and who spent most of my childhood living in two countries and spending a lot of time in a third.

    On the previous thread, we were discussing the effect on our society [of practices by some Muslims], of which they are a part. No man being an island and all that. Or perhaps @Topping doesn't believe in that, which would be ironic, given the subject matter.

    The attitude of men to women's dress and what it says about their view of women is something that affects all women, whatever their religion or culture is.
    Every immigrant who comes here has an effect on our society. Your parents, the Windrush generation, Jews, Huguenots, Muslims. That is how our society changes. Some Jews wear funny clothes, so do some Muslims, so will lorryload after lorryload of carnival goers in Notting Hill in a couple of weeks time.

    You don't like the niqab because it is a symbol of oppression. But confusingly (for some), it seems that some people choose to wear it. Because, and this relates to the nub of the issue on the previous thread, the people wearing it here are British Muslims. And they incorporate both the traditions of their parents' and grandparents' culture, and also modern British culture.

    And that is a continuum. Hence some young British Muslims wear the niqab out of choice, and some have atrocious taste in (modern, British) shoes, say.

    They are all British, but you take exception to one small segment. Now I don't disagree that some are forced to wear the niqab, just as other religions force their adherents to do or wear things. But if I were you I'd relax about it all. As the daughter of immigrants, you should know that it is very un-British to worry too much about what other people say, do or wear, if it is not harming you.

    Edit: alternatively, hence my "parents" comment, I suppose it is very British to do so. cf punks, mods, rockers, goths, etc.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

    I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.

    Who do you think might replace him, were that to happen?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Meeks, I'd like to believe Corbyn would be gone but I'll believe it when I see it.

    Knowing current trends he'll just be replaced with McDonnell.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Ms. Apocalypse, it's shocking if the BBC just aren't covering it, particularly given the substantial coverage they've given the oaf and his letterbox comments.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT

    TOPPING said:

    Aims.

    @Topping also said: "You and David sound like your parents."

    Both my parents were immigrants. And knew something about what integration into British society means in practice, as do I as someone whose mother tongue is not English, who belongs to a minority religion (in Britain anyway) and who spent most of my childhood living in two countries and spending a lot of time in a third.

    On the previous thread, we were discussing the effect on our society [of practices by some Muslims], of which they are a part. No man being an island and all that. Or perhaps @Topping doesn't believe in that, which would be ironic, given the subject matter.

    The attitude of men to women's dress and what it says about their view of women is something that affects all women, whatever their religion or culture is.
    Every immigrant who comes here has an effect on our society. Your parents, the Windrush generation, Jews, Huguenots, Muslims. That is how our society changes. Some Jews wear funny clothes, so do some Muslims, so will lorryload after lorryload of carnival goers in Notting Hill in a couple of weeks time.

    You don't like the niqab because it is a symbol of oppression. But confusingly (for some), it seems that some people choose to wear it. Because, and this relates to the nub of the issue on the previous thread, the people wearing it here are British Muslims. And they incorporate both the traditions of their parents' and grandparents' culture, and also modern British culture.

    And that is a continuum. Hence some young British Muslims wear the niqab out of choice, and some have atrocious taste in (modern, British) shoes, say.

    They are all British, but you take exception to one small segment. Now I don't disagree that some are forced to wear the niqab, just as other religions force their adherents to do or wear things. But if I were you I'd relax about it all. As the daughter of immigrants, you should know that it is very un-British to worry too much about what other people say, do or wear, if it is not harming you.

    Edit: alternatively, hence my "parents" comment, I suppose it is very British to do so. cf punks, mods, rockers, goths, etc.
    I do think extreme separateness does harm our society and misogynistic attitudes to women do harm other women. But will leave it there since there is another - and simply wonderful - header to comment on. :)

    And I have to pop out to the doctor's.

    Till later.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Mr. Meeks, I'd like to believe Corbyn would be gone but I'll believe it when I see it.

    Knowing current trends he'll just be replaced with McDonnell.

    I do hope so, I'm on him at 890-1 for next PM.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    Scott_P said:
    Corbyn is an IRA sympathiser as is well known. It's all priced in. People who were already repelled will stay repelled, those who aren't, won't be. Corbyn's history is both an asset and a liability.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,704
    Cyclefree said:

    I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

    I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.

    Who do you think might replace him, were that to happen?
    question is if the remaining inner circle could rally behind a single name, or if it descends into a free for all.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Pulpstar, I hope your bet fails (but you make lots of money on other bets which are less harmful to the nation).
  • NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758
    BBC silence is shocking. I believe that if they gave it 50% of the Boris covrage then Corbyn would be finished. If they don't cover this properly I think they have crossed some sort of line.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Scott_P said:
    What's fascinating about that picture is how none of the actual Arabs in that photo have their hands anywhere near that wreath. Only Corbyn. As if it was really important to have him holding it - and photographed doing so.

    Maybe the next excuse will be that he was set up....... by you know who......
  • I'm surprised that Boris didn't hear of the massive, angry backlash to a 2015 independent film called Letterbox, about a muslim girl who goes to Glastonbury in her Mum's Niqab. He may have been more careful.

    What? There wasn't a massive angry backlash to that film, which in its title is clearly referencing the visual similarity between the niqab slit and a letterbox? How can that be so?

    http://www.letterboxfilm.co.uk/
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    Mr. Pulpstar, I hope your bet fails (but you make lots of money on other bets which are less harmful to the nation).

    I'll probably sell him if he becomes Labour leader before the Tory contest since he should collpase into 7-1ish or perhaps shorter if May has clung on for dear life too. The profit on the bet will be going towards increased tax if he makes it I suspect.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Meeks, I'd like to believe Corbyn would be gone but I'll believe it when I see it.

    Knowing current trends he'll just be replaced with McDonnell.

    I do hope so, I'm on him at 890-1 for next PM.
    I'm on him at 50/1 for next Prime Minister. @Tissue_Price would not be happy.
  • @Morris_Dancer I’m not surprised, they haven’t covered many Corbyn stories on the app.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842

    BBC silence is shocking. I believe that if they gave it 50% of the Boris covrage then Corbyn would be finished. If they don't cover this properly I think they have crossed some sort of line.

    Are the BBC too pro-Corbyn or anti-Corbyn at the moment ?
    I get confused.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,776
    O/t but the Scottish High Court has today quashed the conviction of Mark Lundy for murder. Unbelievably, that is the second time this has happened. His first conviction was quashed by the Privy Council on human rights grounds relating to the admissibility of certain evidence. The second time, today, the conviction was quashed because of an intemperate and inaccurate speech to the Jury by the AD which the trial judge did not adequately correct.

    The victim was stabbed 4x. It is not in dispute that Lundy did it. What is in dispute is whether it was self defence or not. He is to be retried. I just cannot imagine what it will be like for the victims family going through this yet again.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited August 2018
    To be fair, the BBC usually waits to see what the Guardian thinks is newsworthy. Corbyn's wreath-laying hobby is currently the top story on the Guardian website, so I expect the BBC will get round to it eventually (probably with something along the lines of "Jeremy Corbyn was present at a ceremony for the perpetrators of the Munich Olympics massacre, a BBC investigation has revealed").
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,037
    Sean_F said:


    One good rule of thumb is always to distrust people in any organisation who are holier than thou, whether in the religious sense, or in the politically correct secular sense.

    They will always be compensating for something.

    There are quite a few of those.
  • DavidL said:

    O/t but the Scottish High Court has today quashed the conviction of Mark Lundy for murder. Unbelievably, that is the second time this has happened. His first conviction was quashed by the Privy Council on human rights grounds relating to the admissibility of certain evidence. The second time, today, the conviction was quashed because of an intemperate and inaccurate speech to the Jury by the AD which the trial judge did not adequately correct.

    The victim was stabbed 4x. It is not in dispute that Lundy did it. What is in dispute is whether it was self defence or not. He is to be retried. I just cannot imagine what it will be like for the victims family going through this yet again.

    What does "quashed by the Privy Council" mean in practice?

    Somehow I'm doubting Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson etc sat together and quashed the verdict.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Ms. Apocalypse, doesn't appear to be on the BBC Politics page either.
  • I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

    I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.

    Any other leader would be sunk by this but Corbyn seems to be as teflon as Trump. I can't see Corbyn voluntarily resigning (or being allowed to resign) and the moderates have already shot their bolt in trying to oust him.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    edited August 2018
    TOPPING said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT

    TOPPING said:

    Aims.

    Tell me about it.

    I’m fully expecting Philip Thompson to be able recite the Shahada.
    Not at all. I am an atheist or what I believe from my understanding of Islam can be called a heretic or kafir. I don't care all that much about the ins and outs of fanatical medieval mythologies.

    I do care however about equality. Specifically I oppose equally any fundamentalist cults that say women, gays etc are second class citizens or chattel. Whether that be in the guise of Muslims, Christians (like Westboro Baptist Church) or any other medieval garbage.
    @Topping also said: "You and David sound like your parents."

    Both my parents were immigrants. And k so will lorryload after lorryload of carnival goers in Notting Hill in a couple of weeks time.

    You don't like the niqab because it is a symbol of oppression. But confusingly (for some), it seems that some people choose to wear it. Because, and this relates to the nub of the issue on the previous thread, the people wearing it here are British Muslims. And they incorporate both the traditions of their parents' and grandparents' culture, and also modern British culture.

    And that is a continuum. Hence some young British Muslims wear the niqab out of choice, and some have atrocious taste in (modern, British) shoes, say.

    They are all British, but you take exception to one small segment. Now I don't disagree that some are forced to wear the niqab, just as other religions force their adherents to do or wear things. But if I were you I'd relax about it all. As the daughter of immigrants, you should know that it is very un-British to worry too much about what other people say, do or wear, if it is not harming you.

    Edit: alternatively, hence my "parents" comment, I suppose it is very British to do so. cf punks, mods, rockers, goths, etc.
    Dear Dr Topping

    I find that if I wear an innocent orange neckband round parts of Belfast policemen try to stop me and ask me to remove my fashion choice. Why is that ?

  • DavidL said:

    O/t but the Scottish High Court has today quashed the conviction of Mark Lundy for murder. Unbelievably, that is the second time this has happened. His first conviction was quashed by the Privy Council on human rights grounds relating to the admissibility of certain evidence. The second time, today, the conviction was quashed because of an intemperate and inaccurate speech to the Jury by the AD which the trial judge did not adequately correct.

    The victim was stabbed 4x. It is not in dispute that Lundy did it. What is in dispute is whether it was self defence or not. He is to be retried. I just cannot imagine what it will be like for the victims family going through this yet again.

    What does "quashed by the Privy Council" mean in practice?

    Somehow I'm doubting Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson etc sat together and quashed the verdict.
    https://www.jcpc.uk/
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    BBC silence is shocking. I believe that if they gave it 50% of the Boris covrage then Corbyn would be finished. If they don't cover this properly I think they have crossed some sort of line.

    If it wasnt for Boris helping him out, this really must be the highpoint for the PLP who have flirted with the idea that they cant stay in a Corbyn led Labour Party. This is big, the mail article initially seemed like it was maybe over egging it, then squakbox went out of their way to denounce it all as fake, setup by the right wing MSM. But this has now got to the point of, yes, he actually did do what the Mail accused him of.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 113,972
    edited August 2018
    How long before those Commonwealth nations decide to take back control from a foreign court?

    #CANZUK
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    How on earth decent Labour MPs, those that haven't already drifted off, can in all conscience remain in the party is a complete mystery.

    Not that this story is anything new, of course. Anyone who's being paying attention for the last thirty years, or even the last four years, should know how vile Corbyn is.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    How on earth decent Labour MPs, those that haven't already drifted off, can in all conscience remain in the party is a complete mystery.

    Not that this story is anything new, of course. Anyone who's being paying attention for the last thirty years, or even the last four years, should know how vile Corbyn is.

    Maybe, just maybe, they are calculating the point of maximum leverage.

    Or not.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Meeks, I'd like to believe Corbyn would be gone but I'll believe it when I see it.

    Knowing current trends he'll just be replaced with McDonnell.

    I do hope so, I'm on him at 890-1 for next PM.
    I'm on him at 50/1 for next Prime Minister. @Tissue_Price would not be happy.
    Next Labour Leader, shurely? Good bet.

    In a more normal world today's lies and contortions would surely be the end for the Grim Wreather.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    I have a feeling that whatever the rights and wrongs of whatever the latest thing Corbyn is supposed to have done is, most people will very sensibly not take too much notice of what his opponents say about it.

    In the meantime, there are Israelis who support Corbyn, and more who disagree but respect his position.

    https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-jeremy-corbyn-for-u-k-prime-minister-1.6362301


  • Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Meeks, I'd like to believe Corbyn would be gone but I'll believe it when I see it.

    Knowing current trends he'll just be replaced with McDonnell.

    I do hope so, I'm on him at 890-1 for next PM.
    I'm on him at 50/1 for next Prime Minister. @Tissue_Price would not be happy.
    Next Labour Leader, shurely? Good bet.

    In a more normal world today's lies and contortions would surely be the end for the Grim Wreather.
    Grim Wreather?

    Chapeau Sir. CHAPEAU.
  • RhubarbRhubarb Posts: 359
    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    What's fascinating about that picture is how none of the actual Arabs in that photo have their hands anywhere near that wreath. Only Corbyn. As if it was really important to have him holding it - and photographed doing so.

    Maybe the next excuse will be that he was set up....... by you know who......
    The truth of the matter is that Mr Corbyn is desperately trying to get away from a floating wreath that's chasing him down like the balloon from The Prisoner. Can't you see the fear in his eyes?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    The implosion of Corbyn at this point would be a huge "unknown unknown" in British politics. Who knows where it would end up?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited August 2018

    How on earth decent Labour MPs, those that haven't already drifted off, can in all conscience remain in the party is a complete mystery.

    Not that this story is anything new, of course. Anyone who's being paying attention for the last thirty years, or even the last four years, should know how vile Corbyn is.

    We have heard from @RochdalePioneers, in a very eloquent post, about how the Labour Party, in the form for example, of Labour Councils, continues to do good things and that overall Corbyn does and should not detract from those good things and that good work.

    Now there is no one on this board who seems to dislike Corbyn more than @RochdalePioneers who I understand is a Labour Councillor.

    But answer to my question of how do you look your Jewish residents in the face, as a member of today's Labour Party, came there none.
  • notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    I have a feeling that whatever the rights and wrongs of whatever the latest thing Corbyn is supposed to have done is, most people will very sensibly not take too much notice of what his opponents say about it.


    Pure Trumpism, blended and rendered down into a concentrated essence.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    notme said:

    BBC silence is shocking. I believe that if they gave it 50% of the Boris covrage then Corbyn would be finished. If they don't cover this properly I think they have crossed some sort of line.

    If it wasnt for Boris helping him out, this really must be the highpoint for the PLP who have flirted with the idea that they cant stay in a Corbyn led Labour Party. This is big, the mail article initially seemed like it was maybe over egging it, then squakbox went out of their way to denounce it all as fake, setup by the right wing MSM. But this has now got to the point of, yes, he actually did do what the Mail accused him of.
    It shouldn't matter a damn what Boris has said, this issue should be judged on its own merits - that 160 Labour MPs tell Corbyn to resign as Leader, or else they resign the Labour Whip.

    Using Boris as cover is playing the CCHQ tune, of keeping Corbyn in place.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Meeks, I'd like to believe Corbyn would be gone but I'll believe it when I see it.

    Knowing current trends he'll just be replaced with McDonnell.

    I do hope so, I'm on him at 890-1 for next PM.
    I'm on him at 50/1 for next Prime Minister. @Tissue_Price would not be happy.
    Next Labour Leader, shurely? Good bet.

    In a more normal world today's lies and contortions would surely be the end for the Grim Wreather.
    Yes, Labour leader. Phew, someone is not as dopey as me.

    The Grim Wreather is a fantastic coinage.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Dear Dr Topping

    I find that if I wear an innocent orange neckband round parts of Belfast policemen try to stop me and ask me to remove my fashion choice. Why is that ?

    Jeez Alan I even have to sort out your blockquoting.

    I am genuinely not sure what point you are trying to make.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Another less-than-honourable member has been sent for trial:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-labour-mp-fiona-onasanya-13076412

    How on earth can such a simple case require 7 days of trial???
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    notme said:

    I have a feeling that whatever the rights and wrongs of whatever the latest thing Corbyn is supposed to have done is, most people will very sensibly not take too much notice of what his opponents say about it.


    Pure Trumpism, blended and rendered down into a concentrated essence.
    No - critical thinking.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Meeks, I'd like to believe Corbyn would be gone but I'll believe it when I see it.

    Knowing current trends he'll just be replaced with McDonnell.

    I do hope so, I'm on him at 890-1 for next PM.
    I'm on him at 50/1 for next Prime Minister. @Tissue_Price would not be happy.
    Next Labour Leader, shurely? Good bet.

    In a more normal world today's lies and contortions would surely be the end for the Grim Wreather.
    Yes, Labour leader. Phew, someone is not as dopey as me.

    The Grim Wreather is a fantastic coinage.
    I reckon I’m the first person on twitter to call Jeremy Corbyn the Grim Wreather.

    Ahem.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311
    Scott_P said:
    This is what I was talking about earlier. I do think the BBC has a difficult job with impartiality but they clearly hate Boris and it shows in their output. Remember 60% of the population agree with Boris but any crisis involving the Tories is only eclipsed by a BBC in crisis story - they love them!
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,401
    Outstanding piece. Many thanks.
  • Sky News just reported Corbyn's wreath laying fairly comprehensively.

    Whilst the BBC gave some coverage to the wreath laying but with caveats such as that the palestinians' graves were of those who were "alleged by some" to be the terrorists responsible for the killing of Israelis at Munich.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    edited August 2018
    Scott_P said:
    In other news:

    Hitler: "I was present at Nuremburg rally, but I don't think I was actually involved in it..."
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    https://twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/1028995016914620417

    In the thick of it was satire, then Corbyn turned up.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    edited August 2018

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Meeks, I'd like to believe Corbyn would be gone but I'll believe it when I see it.

    Knowing current trends he'll just be replaced with McDonnell.

    I do hope so, I'm on him at 890-1 for next PM.
    I'm on him at 50/1 for next Prime Minister. @Tissue_Price would not be happy.
    Next Labour Leader, shurely? Good bet.

    In a more normal world today's lies and contortions would surely be the end for the Grim Wreather.
    Yes, Labour leader. Phew, someone is not as dopey as me.

    The Grim Wreather is a fantastic coinage.
    I reckon I’m the first person on twitter to call Jeremy Corbyn the Grim Wreather.

    Ahem.
    Ninsense

    youre a South Asian man

    your mum did it for you
  • Another less-than-honourable member has been sent for trial:

    https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-labour-mp-fiona-onasanya-13076412

    How on earth can such a simple case require 7 days of trial???

    3 defendants and multiple charges, 7 days sounds fair

    Or perhaps you’ll be off to Bristol to berate the judge in the trial of Ben Stokes and others?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,559
    TOPPING said:

    Dear Dr Topping

    I find that if I wear an innocent orange neckband round parts of Belfast policemen try to stop me and ask me to remove my fashion choice. Why is that ?

    Jeez Alan I even have to sort out your blockquoting.

    I am genuinely not sure what point you are trying to make.
    just out for an afternoon troll Topping
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 5,831
    Surprised that Corbyn didn't try the 'I don't speak Arabic so didn't understand what was going on' line...
This discussion has been closed.