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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Daily Mail’s change of tone Brexit should help Mrs May sel

SystemSystem Posts: 6,666
edited September 14 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Daily Mail’s change of tone Brexit should help Mrs May sell her Brexit deal

Something feels different about the headlines in today's Daily Mail pic.twitter.com/LCFgwnOrlu

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • FPT, but more appropriate to this one:

    This is surprisingly interesting:

    TRIGGER WARNING: Leavers of a sensitive disposition should go to their designated Safe Space rather than click on the link.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/clegg-leads-pro-remain-grandees-on-diplomatic-mission-to-stop-brexit
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 46,447
    Be interesting to see what it does to sales.

    FPT: Mr. Eagles, go and check that map. You've started new threads twice today, right after I posted it.

    Honestly. Anyone would think you were doing it on purpose.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024

    Be interesting to see what it does to sales.

    FPT: Mr. Eagles, go and check that map. You've started new threads twice today, right after I posted it.

    Honestly. Anyone would think you were doing it on purpose.

    Sales of the Mail will drop sharply.

    That's a safe prediction, they've been dropping sharply for some time and there's no reason to expect the change of political direction to change this trend.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 46,447
    Mr. Meeks, that's true, however, rate of decline could still be affected.
  • Be interesting to see what it does to sales.

    FPT: Mr. Eagles, go and check that map. You've started new threads twice today, right after I posted it.

    Honestly. Anyone would think you were doing it on purpose.

    Thank you.

    See that’s what a truly great general looks like.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,254

    FPT, but more appropriate to this one:

    This is surprisingly interesting:

    TRIGGER WARNING: Leavers of a sensitive disposition should go to their designated Safe Space rather than click on the link.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/clegg-leads-pro-remain-grandees-on-diplomatic-mission-to-stop-brexit

    that line ups worth about 10% to Leave

  • Mr. Meeks, that's true, however, rate of decline could still be affected.

    Just looked down the right hand side of their web page.
    A lot fewer pics of female 'celebs' in bikinis too.
  • felixfelix Posts: 8,172

    Be interesting to see what it does to sales.

    FPT: Mr. Eagles, go and check that map. You've started new threads twice today, right after I posted it.

    Honestly. Anyone would think you were doing it on purpose.

    Sales of the Mail will drop sharply.

    That's a safe prediction, they've been dropping sharply for some time and there's no reason to expect the change of political direction to change this trend.
    As with most papers. I doubt very much if the editorial line has much impact on sales either way.
  • I have flagged this up over the last few days and doubt it will effect circulation or the on line paper we receive. The daily version has moved pro TM and the sunday version lessened it's remain stance

    As I said earlier my good wife has joined the conservative party today for the first time at 79

    So she has neutralised one of the entryist Ukippers
  • I’ve had my surgery and I’m still alive... So fantastic news!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 46,447
    Mr. Gate, huzzah!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,621

    I have flagged this up over the last few days and doubt it will effect circulation or the on line paper we receive. The daily version has moved pro TM and the sunday version lessened it's remain stance

    As I said earlier my good wife has joined the conservative party today for the first time at 79

    So she has neutralised one of the entryist Ukippers

    Will be good to get some young blood into the party... :D
  • I’ve had my surgery and I’m still alive... So fantastic news!

    Well done and great for you to be over your operation but take time to recover.

    When I had my bi-lateral hernia surgery last November I was back in hospital 10 days later with suspected problems which turned out to be fatigue due to impatience to be up and running (and posting on here) too soon
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024
    felix said:

    Be interesting to see what it does to sales.

    FPT: Mr. Eagles, go and check that map. You've started new threads twice today, right after I posted it.

    Honestly. Anyone would think you were doing it on purpose.

    Sales of the Mail will drop sharply.

    That's a safe prediction, they've been dropping sharply for some time and there's no reason to expect the change of political direction to change this trend.
    As with most papers. I doubt very much if the editorial line has much impact on sales either way.
    Since my dad died, my mum has cut down buying the Mail from seven days a week to Saturday and Sunday only. My dad used to love having it around to read it all day when he was ill. My mum, however, has decided she would just get it at the weekends for the bigger crosswords. I'm sure part of her decision was related to the tone of the paper which she definitely resents.
  • FPT, but more appropriate to this one:

    This is surprisingly interesting:

    TRIGGER WARNING: Leavers of a sensitive disposition should go to their designated Safe Space rather than click on the link.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/clegg-leads-pro-remain-grandees-on-diplomatic-mission-to-stop-brexit

    that line ups worth about 10% to Leave

    No - 20% - who do they think they are
  • RobD said:

    I have flagged this up over the last few days and doubt it will effect circulation or the on line paper we receive. The daily version has moved pro TM and the sunday version lessened it's remain stance

    As I said earlier my good wife has joined the conservative party today for the first time at 79

    So she has neutralised one of the entryist Ukippers

    Will be good to get some young blood into the party... :D
    Every little helps and she has had a personal message from Brendon.

    She has joined due to her revulsion at Corbyn and those around him
  • FPT, but more appropriate to this one:

    This is surprisingly interesting:

    TRIGGER WARNING: Leavers of a sensitive disposition should go to their designated Safe Space rather than click on the link.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/clegg-leads-pro-remain-grandees-on-diplomatic-mission-to-stop-brexit

    that line ups worth about 10% to Leave

    No - 20% - who do they think they are
    They are patriots trying to stop the Brexit traitors that are the ERG.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 11,538

    FPT, but more appropriate to this one:

    This is surprisingly interesting:

    TRIGGER WARNING: Leavers of a sensitive disposition should go to their designated Safe Space rather than click on the link.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/clegg-leads-pro-remain-grandees-on-diplomatic-mission-to-stop-brexit

    that line ups worth about 10% to Leave

    The most important bit in that piece is the line about Barnier seeing his job as negotiating the withdrawal agreement rather than anything else. Once out, I strongly suspect there will be little appetite within the EU for negotiating any sort of long-term FTA with Britain. Certainly not as a priority. So we either stay in the transition stage indefinitely or end up in a No-Deal scenario two years later.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 23,410

    FPT, but more appropriate to this one:

    This is surprisingly interesting:

    TRIGGER WARNING: Leavers of a sensitive disposition should go to their designated Safe Space rather than click on the link.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/clegg-leads-pro-remain-grandees-on-diplomatic-mission-to-stop-brexit

    that line ups worth about 10% to Leave

    No - 20% - who do they think they are
    How do you know John Major isn’t acting as a back-channel for May?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,254

    I’ve had my surgery and I’m still alive... So fantastic news!

    Good news - wishing you a speedy recovery Mr G
  • felix said:

    Be interesting to see what it does to sales.

    FPT: Mr. Eagles, go and check that map. You've started new threads twice today, right after I posted it.

    Honestly. Anyone would think you were doing it on purpose.

    Sales of the Mail will drop sharply.

    That's a safe prediction, they've been dropping sharply for some time and there's no reason to expect the change of political direction to change this trend.
    As with most papers. I doubt very much if the editorial line has much impact on sales either way.
    Since my dad died, my mum has cut down buying the Mail from seven days a week to Saturday and Sunday only. My dad used to love having it around to read it all day when he was ill. My mum, however, has decided she would just get it at the weekends for the bigger crosswords. I'm sure part of her decision was related to the tone of the paper which she definitely resents.
    To be honest Alastair she would be better paying £9.99 per month and get the actual paper, including sundays, downloaded with all the daily puzzles. My wife loves them
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,254

    FPT, but more appropriate to this one:

    This is surprisingly interesting:

    TRIGGER WARNING: Leavers of a sensitive disposition should go to their designated Safe Space rather than click on the link.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/clegg-leads-pro-remain-grandees-on-diplomatic-mission-to-stop-brexit

    that line ups worth about 10% to Leave

    No - 20% - who do they think they are
    they've put Blair in charge of immigration

    it's like entrusting Boris with the keys to a chastity belt
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 11,538

    I’ve had my surgery and I’m still alive... So fantastic news!

    Well done! Enjoy the rest and take time to recover properly.
  • FPT, but more appropriate to this one:

    This is surprisingly interesting:

    TRIGGER WARNING: Leavers of a sensitive disposition should go to their designated Safe Space rather than click on the link.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/clegg-leads-pro-remain-grandees-on-diplomatic-mission-to-stop-brexit

    that line ups worth about 10% to Leave

    No - 20% - who do they think they are
    They are patriots trying to stop the Brexit traitors that are the ERG.
    Somewhere in the middle is the democratic position
  • I’ll be in hospital for up to 10 days so plenty of free time to argue about Brexit, pizza toppings and Palestine and Israel. :smiley:
  • FPT, but more appropriate to this one:

    This is surprisingly interesting:

    TRIGGER WARNING: Leavers of a sensitive disposition should go to their designated Safe Space rather than click on the link.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/clegg-leads-pro-remain-grandees-on-diplomatic-mission-to-stop-brexit

    that line ups worth about 10% to Leave

    No - 20% - who do they think they are
    How do you know John Major isn’t acting as a back-channel for May?
    Not sure what you are suggesting there William !!!!!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 46,447
    Mr. Gate, one hopes the nurses give you all due attention.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 18,254
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT, but more appropriate to this one:

    This is surprisingly interesting:

    TRIGGER WARNING: Leavers of a sensitive disposition should go to their designated Safe Space rather than click on the link.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/clegg-leads-pro-remain-grandees-on-diplomatic-mission-to-stop-brexit

    that line ups worth about 10% to Leave

    The most important bit in that piece is the line about Barnier seeing his job as negotiating the withdrawal agreement rather than anything else. Once out, I strongly suspect there will be little appetite within the EU for negotiating any sort of long-term FTA with Britain. Certainly not as a priority. So we either stay in the transition stage indefinitely or end up in a No-Deal scenario two years later.
    This is the bit I never get with remain, theres hardly a stream of nations begging us to come back. If this had been France whuch had voted leave the commission would be falling over itself to get a remain vote.

    That sort of sums up our much vaunted "influence" in Europe tp me .
  • I’ll be in hospital for up to 10 days so plenty of free time to argue about Brexit, pizza toppings and Palestine and Israel. :smiley:

    Good for you but still take your time even after you have left hospital
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 22,024

    felix said:

    Be interesting to see what it does to sales.

    FPT: Mr. Eagles, go and check that map. You've started new threads twice today, right after I posted it.

    Honestly. Anyone would think you were doing it on purpose.

    Sales of the Mail will drop sharply.

    That's a safe prediction, they've been dropping sharply for some time and there's no reason to expect the change of political direction to change this trend.
    As with most papers. I doubt very much if the editorial line has much impact on sales either way.
    Since my dad died, my mum has cut down buying the Mail from seven days a week to Saturday and Sunday only. My dad used to love having it around to read it all day when he was ill. My mum, however, has decided she would just get it at the weekends for the bigger crosswords. I'm sure part of her decision was related to the tone of the paper which she definitely resents.
    To be honest Alastair she would be better paying £9.99 per month and get the actual paper, including sundays, downloaded with all the daily puzzles. My wife loves them
    She knows that but my mum is a very late adopter to the online world. She's only just got her own facebook account and she refuses point blank to do online banking.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,828
    edited September 14
    Regarding House of Fraser

    Are those owed refunds of goods by the company within their rights, morally, to walk into a store and simply take them?

  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,621

    I’ll be in hospital for up to 10 days so plenty of free time to argue about Brexit, pizza toppings and Palestine and Israel. :smiley:

    Glad it went well. I hope you have a restful convalescence.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,828
    The new editor is clearly sticking up for his core constituency – the middle classes. A house price crash suits them not.
  • FPT, but more appropriate to this one:

    This is surprisingly interesting:

    TRIGGER WARNING: Leavers of a sensitive disposition should go to their designated Safe Space rather than click on the link.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/clegg-leads-pro-remain-grandees-on-diplomatic-mission-to-stop-brexit

    that line ups worth about 10% to Leave

    No - 20% - who do they think they are
    they've put Blair in charge of immigration

    it's like entrusting Boris with the keys to a chastity belt
    Like The 13th Duke Of Wybourne from the Fast Show
  • felix said:

    Be interesting to see what it does to sales.

    FPT: Mr. Eagles, go and check that map. You've started new threads twice today, right after I posted it.

    Honestly. Anyone would think you were doing it on purpose.

    Sales of the Mail will drop sharply.

    That's a safe prediction, they've been dropping sharply for some time and there's no reason to expect the change of political direction to change this trend.
    As with most papers. I doubt very much if the editorial line has much impact on sales either way.
    Since my dad died, my mum has cut down buying the Mail from seven days a week to Saturday and Sunday only. My dad used to love having it around to read it all day when he was ill. My mum, however, has decided she would just get it at the weekends for the bigger crosswords. I'm sure part of her decision was related to the tone of the paper which she definitely resents.
    To be honest Alastair she would be better paying £9.99 per month and get the actual paper, including sundays, downloaded with all the daily puzzles. My wife loves them
    She knows that but my mum is a very late adopter to the online world. She's only just got her own facebook account and she refuses point blank to do online banking.
    My wife has her own facebook account and manages mail plus very well. You do not need to read the politics in it as otherwise it has lots of interesting content
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 23,410

    FPT, but more appropriate to this one:

    This is surprisingly interesting:

    TRIGGER WARNING: Leavers of a sensitive disposition should go to their designated Safe Space rather than click on the link.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/clegg-leads-pro-remain-grandees-on-diplomatic-mission-to-stop-brexit

    that line ups worth about 10% to Leave

    No - 20% - who do they think they are
    How do you know John Major isn’t acting as a back-channel for May?
    Not sure what you are suggesting there William !!!!!
    Lol! I’m suggesting that maybe she approves of what they’re doing and is being kept informed.
  • Anazina said:

    Regarding House of Fraser

    Are those owed refunds of goods by the company within their rights, morally, to walk into a store and simply take them?

    Isnt Mike Ashley's plan with House of Fraser to merge it with Sports Direct and Debenhams, of which he has a 30% stake
  • Anazina said:

    The new editor is clearly sticking up for his core constituency – the middle classes. A house price crash suits them not.

    Unlike Archbishop Welby who must have enraged a lot of C of E members in the shires
  • FPT, but more appropriate to this one:

    This is surprisingly interesting:

    TRIGGER WARNING: Leavers of a sensitive disposition should go to their designated Safe Space rather than click on the link.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/clegg-leads-pro-remain-grandees-on-diplomatic-mission-to-stop-brexit

    that line ups worth about 10% to Leave

    No - 20% - who do they think they are
    How do you know John Major isn’t acting as a back-channel for May?
    Not sure what you are suggesting there William !!!!!
    Lol! I’m suggesting that maybe she approves of what they’re doing and is being kept informed.
    I know - I was teasing you
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,779

    I’ve had my surgery and I’m still alive... So fantastic news!

    Congratulations - best wishes for a speedy recovery (but as others have observed - give yourself time)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 46,447
    Miss Vance, that sounds like a plan to try and lose all the voters.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 4,378
    Anazina said:

    Regarding House of Fraser

    Are those owed refunds of goods by the company within their rights, morally, to walk into a store and simply take them?

    Morality has nothing to do with the law. The law will not provide protection to anyone seeking to assert their 'moral' rights by walking into a store and taking something without paying for it.

    People who did not receive their goods are creditors of the old company and have to proceed accordingly.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 10,360
    The USA Supreme Court nomination process has taken a dramatic twist.

    It turns out the Republicans just happen to have a letter lying around signed by 65 female high school acquaintances of Kavanaugh saying he didn't seem like a rapists when he was in high school.

    Amazing they had this letter ready and good to go.
  • Del Quentin Wilber

    @DelWilber
    !!! Prosecutor says that Manafort is cooperating with special counsel investigation !!!

    4:24 PM - Sep 14, 2018
  • I’ll be in hospital for up to 10 days so plenty of free time to argue about Brexit, pizza toppings and Palestine and Israel. :smiley:

    Hurrah.
  • Anazina said:

    Regarding House of Fraser

    Are those owed refunds of goods by the company within their rights, morally, to walk into a store and simply take them?

    Morality has nothing to do with the law. The law will not provide protection to anyone seeking to assert their 'moral' rights by walking into a store and taking something without paying for it.

    People who did not receive their goods are creditors of the old company and have to proceed accordingly.
    Consider whether the customer, who is owed their £29.99, is morally entitled to put themselves ahead of employees, the pension scheme, or supplies owed thousands (or millions)
  • Next they’ll be wanting to say Hannibal was the greatest military strategist in history.

  • That was discussed earlier and when the actual deal is agreed with a fanfare, as it will be, by TM and the EU 27 reality meet the the politics and the 'probably' she said today may well be very different.

    Lisa Nandy said yesterday she was inclined to vote for the deal

    And how she gets to a GE I have no idea
  • Anazina said:

    The new editor is clearly sticking up for his core constituency – the middle classes. A house price crash suits them not.

    A house price crash makes it easier to move up marker and/or a better area or even to London.
  • Anazina said:

    The new editor is clearly sticking up for his core constituency – the middle classes. A house price crash suits them not.

    A house price crash makes it easier to move up marker and/or a better area or even to London.
    Mortgage lender will collapse, so very unlikely.No-one is going to lend 70 LTV if prices are down 35% y-o-y
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,779

    That was discussed earlier and when the actual deal is agreed with a fanfare, as it will be, by TM and the EU 27 reality meet the the politics and the 'probably' she said today may well be very different.

    Lisa Nandy said yesterday she was inclined to vote for the deal

    And how she gets to a GE I have no idea
    There's many a slip twixt cup & lip - but I do hope we get a reasonable deal and the JRMs and Gina Millers of this world can retreat into their well deserved obscurity and the footnotes of history. There are so many dangerous nutters on the world stage it will be one less problem if the UK and EU can reach a sensible accommodation.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 70,941
    edited September 14

    Anazina said:

    The new editor is clearly sticking up for his core constituency – the middle classes. A house price crash suits them not.

    A house price crash makes it easier to move up marker and/or a better area or even to London.
    It doesn’t.

    It’ll lead to lenders asking for 50% plus deposits as LTVs decreasing sharply.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 8,666

    I’ve had my surgery and I’m still alive... So fantastic news!

    Much preferable to the alternative !
    I wish you an entirely satisfactory recovery, at your own speed.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 8,666

    Del Quentin Wilber

    @DelWilber
    !!! Prosecutor says that Manafort is cooperating with special counsel investigation !!!

    4:24 PM - Sep 14, 2018

    Mueller prosecutor Andrew Weissmann did not immediately expand on what cooperation is required under the deal.... according to Politico.

    It will be a while before we know how significant it might be.
  • Nigelb said:

    Del Quentin Wilber

    @DelWilber
    !!! Prosecutor says that Manafort is cooperating with special counsel investigation !!!

    4:24 PM - Sep 14, 2018

    Mueller prosecutor Andrew Weissmann did not immediately expand on what cooperation is required under the deal.... according to Politico.

    It will be a while before we know how significant it might be.
    Tick tock goes the clock
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 31,779


    Why do they keep trying to slide in 'Trade Deal' things like 'GIs' when we're not allowed to talk about trade until we've left?
  • Anazina said:

    The new editor is clearly sticking up for his core constituency – the middle classes. A house price crash suits them not.

    A house price crash makes it easier to move up marker and/or a better area or even to London.
    It doesn’t.

    It’ll lead to lenders asking for 50% plus deposits as LTVs decreasing sharply.
    Exactly
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 5,316
    edited September 14
    Interesting intervention from a darling of the left.
    Although that is shortly to be ex-darling when the hate machine kicks into action.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 4,378
    Nigelb said:

    Del Quentin Wilber

    @DelWilber
    !!! Prosecutor says that Manafort is cooperating with special counsel investigation !!!

    4:24 PM - Sep 14, 2018

    Mueller prosecutor Andrew Weissmann did not immediately expand on what cooperation is required under the deal.... according to Politico.

    It will be a while before we know how significant it might be.
    All of these plea bargains means that evidence is not being tested in court and the 'cooperation' being 'required' means that what emerges from that process is tainted.

    This is not how justice should work.
  • felixfelix Posts: 8,172

    felix said:

    Be interesting to see what it does to sales.

    FPT: Mr. Eagles, go and check that map. You've started new threads twice today, right after I posted it.

    Honestly. Anyone would think you were doing it on purpose.

    Sales of the Mail will drop sharply.

    That's a safe prediction, they've been dropping sharply for some time and there's no reason to expect the change of political direction to change this trend.
    As with most papers. I doubt very much if the editorial line has much impact on sales either way.
    Since my dad died, my mum has cut down buying the Mail from seven days a week to Saturday and Sunday only. My dad used to love having it around to read it all day when he was ill. My mum, however, has decided she would just get it at the weekends for the bigger crosswords. I'm sure part of her decision was related to the tone of the paper which she definitely resents.
    Living abroad I read all my news on-line apart from a few freebies occasionally.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,621
    Is anyone actually going to be tried and convicted? :p
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 2,828

    Anazina said:

    Regarding House of Fraser

    Are those owed refunds of goods by the company within their rights, morally, to walk into a store and simply take them?

    Morality has nothing to do with the law. The law will not provide protection to anyone seeking to assert their 'moral' rights by walking into a store and taking something without paying for it.

    People who did not receive their goods are creditors of the old company and have to proceed accordingly.
    Not the question I asked. I am aware that morality and the law are different.
  • felixfelix Posts: 8,172

    Anazina said:

    The new editor is clearly sticking up for his core constituency – the middle classes. A house price crash suits them not.

    A house price crash makes it easier to move up marker and/or a better area or even to London.
    Yes - price crashes only really harm those cashing in their bricks so to speak. In 1980 I lost 20K on my flat and gained 25k on the house I wanted to buy. Pretty much a wash.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 4,378
    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Regarding House of Fraser

    Are those owed refunds of goods by the company within their rights, morally, to walk into a store and simply take them?

    Morality has nothing to do with the law. The law will not provide protection to anyone seeking to assert their 'moral' rights by walking into a store and taking something without paying for it.

    People who did not receive their goods are creditors of the old company and have to proceed accordingly.
    Not the question I asked. I am aware that morality and the law are different.
    The answer to your question is a no. I was just putting it into a broader context.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 8,666

    Nigelb said:

    Del Quentin Wilber

    @DelWilber
    !!! Prosecutor says that Manafort is cooperating with special counsel investigation !!!

    4:24 PM - Sep 14, 2018

    Mueller prosecutor Andrew Weissmann did not immediately expand on what cooperation is required under the deal.... according to Politico.

    It will be a while before we know how significant it might be.
    All of these plea bargains means that evidence is not being tested in court and the 'cooperation' being 'required' means that what emerges from that process is tainted.

    This is not how justice should work.
    Manafort has already been found guilty by a jury on multiple counts.

    As for 'tainted' evidence, defences are well versed in making exactly that point, as we saw in Manafort's own trial - which is why it would need corroborating, as it was in Manafort's own case.

    Are you saying that the criminal justice system ought never to be allowed to obtain evidence from confessed criminals in return for a degree of sentencing leniency ? That is how the justice system woks in many countries, including to some degree our own.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 4,378
    RobD said:

    Is anyone actually going to be tried and convicted? :p
    It would appear not. It is a very coercive system.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,621
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Del Quentin Wilber

    @DelWilber
    !!! Prosecutor says that Manafort is cooperating with special counsel investigation !!!

    4:24 PM - Sep 14, 2018

    Mueller prosecutor Andrew Weissmann did not immediately expand on what cooperation is required under the deal.... according to Politico.

    It will be a while before we know how significant it might be.
    All of these plea bargains means that evidence is not being tested in court and the 'cooperation' being 'required' means that what emerges from that process is tainted.

    This is not how justice should work.
    Manafort has already been found guilty by a jury on multiple counts.

    As for 'tainted' evidence, defences are well versed in making exactly that point, as we saw in Manafort's own trial - which is why it would need corroborating, as it was in Manafort's own case.

    Are you saying that the criminal justice system ought never to be allowed to obtain evidence from confessed criminals in return for a degree of sentencing leniency ? That is how the justice system woks in many countries, including to some degree our own.
    It was a more general comment. Plea bargaining is used to settle 90% of court cases.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 10,360
    RobD said:

    Is anyone actually going to be tried and convicted? :p
    Manafort already has.
  • RobD said:

    Is anyone actually going to be tried and convicted? :p
    It would appear not. It is a very coercive system.
    The trial tax
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 8,666
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Del Quentin Wilber

    @DelWilber
    !!! Prosecutor says that Manafort is cooperating with special counsel investigation !!!

    4:24 PM - Sep 14, 2018

    Mueller prosecutor Andrew Weissmann did not immediately expand on what cooperation is required under the deal.... according to Politico.

    It will be a while before we know how significant it might be.
    All of these plea bargains means that evidence is not being tested in court and the 'cooperation' being 'required' means that what emerges from that process is tainted.

    This is not how justice should work.
    Manafort has already been found guilty by a jury on multiple counts.

    As for 'tainted' evidence, defences are well versed in making exactly that point, as we saw in Manafort's own trial - which is why it would need corroborating, as it was in Manafort's own case.

    Are you saying that the criminal justice system ought never to be allowed to obtain evidence from confessed criminals in return for a degree of sentencing leniency ? That is how the justice system woks in many countries, including to some degree our own.
    It was a more general comment. Plea bargaining is used to settle 90% of court cases.
    I'd agree that it is used excessively in the US - usually against defendants who don't have the wherewithal to fund their own defence.
    That really isn't the case here.

    Interestingly, it would seem that Manafort's guilty plea is effectively pardon-proof:
    https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/09/14/the-manafort-plea-is-pardon-proof/

    And incidentally, the Mueller investigation has now paid for itself.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,621
    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Del Quentin Wilber

    @DelWilber
    !!! Prosecutor says that Manafort is cooperating with special counsel investigation !!!

    4:24 PM - Sep 14, 2018

    Mueller prosecutor Andrew Weissmann did not immediately expand on what cooperation is required under the deal.... according to Politico.

    It will be a while before we know how significant it might be.
    All of these plea bargains means that evidence is not being tested in court and the 'cooperation' being 'required' means that what emerges from that process is tainted.

    This is not how justice should work.
    Manafort has already been found guilty by a jury on multiple counts.

    As for 'tainted' evidence, defences are well versed in making exactly that point, as we saw in Manafort's own trial - which is why it would need corroborating, as it was in Manafort's own case.

    Are you saying that the criminal justice system ought never to be allowed to obtain evidence from confessed criminals in return for a degree of sentencing leniency ? That is how the justice system woks in many countries, including to some degree our own.
    It was a more general comment. Plea bargaining is used to settle 90% of court cases.
    I'd agree that it is used excessively in the US - usually against defendants who don't have the wherewithal to fund their own defence.
    That really isn't the case here.

    Interestingly, it would seem that Manafort's guilty plea is effectively pardon-proof:
    https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/09/14/the-manafort-plea-is-pardon-proof/

    And incidentally, the Mueller investigation has now paid for itself.
    Isn’t he already bankrupt?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,621
    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Is anyone actually going to be tried and convicted? :p
    Manafort already has.
    For this charge? What’s the plea bargain about then?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 8,666
    edited September 14
    RobD said:

    Alistair said:

    RobD said:

    Is anyone actually going to be tried and convicted? :p
    Manafort already has.
    For this charge? What’s the plea bargain about then?
    Manafort had a charge list as long as your arm.

    He himself opted to split the trial venues (a tactical decision which appears to have been badly misjudged) in the hope that he'd be found innocent in the first trial.

    He wasn't.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 4,378
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Del Quentin Wilber

    @DelWilber
    !!! Prosecutor says that Manafort is cooperating with special counsel investigation !!!

    4:24 PM - Sep 14, 2018

    Mueller prosecutor Andrew Weissmann did not immediately expand on what cooperation is required under the deal.... according to Politico.

    It will be a while before we know how significant it might be.
    All of these plea bargains means that evidence is not being tested in court and the 'cooperation' being 'required' means that what emerges from that process is tainted.

    This is not how justice should work.
    Manafort has already been found guilty by a jury on multiple counts.

    As for 'tainted' evidence, defences are well versed in making exactly that point, as we saw in Manafort's own trial - which is why it would need corroborating, as it was in Manafort's own case.

    Are you saying that the criminal justice system ought never to be allowed to obtain evidence from confessed criminals in return for a degree of sentencing leniency ? That is how the justice system woks in many countries, including to some degree our own.
    Manafort has been subject to two different legal processes. The first trial in Virginia did, indeed, lead to a conviction rather than a guilty plea - but only on some of the charges. A mistrial was declared on the others.

    Today's plea bargain is in relation to the case being considered by courts in DC as well as some of the outstanding charges in Virginia.

    It is a very complicated picture and it is not easy to unpick it to fully see how today's plea bargain was agreed.

    On cases of this complexity and importance to the understanding of how Trump's campaign operated, I still maintain that it is better for these things to be fully explored in open court. I know people are entitled to plead guilty. But the preponderance of plea bargains in these particular cases is not good at achieving real insight into the issues that concern people.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 9,596
    WTF are the BBC and Sky giving so much time to Hurricane Florence?
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,256
    All the best Mr Gallowgate and a full recovery.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 8,666
    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    RobD said:

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Del Quentin Wilber

    @DelWilber
    !!! Prosecutor says that Manafort is cooperating with special counsel investigation !!!

    4:24 PM - Sep 14, 2018

    Mueller prosecutor Andrew Weissmann did not immediately expand on what cooperation is required under the deal.... according to Politico.

    It will be a while before we know how significant it might be.
    All of these plea bargains means that evidence is not being tested in court and the 'cooperation' being 'required' means that what emerges from that process is tainted.

    This is not how justice should work.
    Manafort has already been found guilty by a jury on multiple counts.

    As for 'tainted' evidence, defences are well versed in making exactly that point, as we saw in Manafort's own trial - which is why it would need corroborating, as it was in Manafort's own case.

    Are you saying that the criminal justice system ought never to be allowed to obtain evidence from confessed criminals in return for a degree of sentencing leniency ? That is how the justice system woks in many countries, including to some degree our own.
    It was a more general comment. Plea bargaining is used to settle 90% of court cases.
    I'd agree that it is used excessively in the US - usually against defendants who don't have the wherewithal to fund their own defence.
    That really isn't the case here.

    Interestingly, it would seem that Manafort's guilty plea is effectively pardon-proof:
    https://www.emptywheel.net/2018/09/14/the-manafort-plea-is-pardon-proof/

    And incidentally, the Mueller investigation has now paid for itself.
    Isn’t he already bankrupt?
    Yes, but there are different states of bankruptcy.
    His assets have been forfeited to the state, which I guess means that a few dodgy banks are going to be SOL getting back some of their cash.

    Given some of the ones he was dealing with, I'm not entirely sympathetic.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,247
    Love it!

    The biggest c*nt in British politics!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 46,447
    Just over halfway into the podcast.

    Given the centre-left likes the centre but the centre-right does not seem to, that suggests a 'centrist' party would just be soft left, rather than balanced (as the term implies).
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 8,666
    edited September 14

    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Del Quentin Wilber

    @DelWilber
    !!! Prosecutor says that Manafort is cooperating with special counsel investigation !!!

    4:24 PM - Sep 14, 2018

    Mueller prosecutor Andrew Weissmann did not immediately expand on what cooperation is required under the deal.... according to Politico.

    It will be a while before we know how significant it might be.
    All of these plea bargains means that evidence is not being tested in court and the 'cooperation' being 'required' means that what emerges from that process is tainted.

    This is not how justice should work.
    Manafort has already been found guilty by a jury on multiple counts.

    As for 'tainted' evidence, defences are well versed in making exactly that point, as we saw in Manafort's own trial - which is why it would need corroborating, as it was in Manafort's own case.

    Are you saying that the criminal justice system ought never to be allowed to obtain evidence from confessed criminals in return for a degree of sentencing leniency ? That is how the justice system woks in many countries, including to some degree our own.
    Manafort has been subject to two different legal processes. The first trial in Virginia did, indeed, lead to a conviction rather than a guilty plea - but only on some of the charges. A mistrial was declared on the others.

    Today's plea bargain is in relation to the case being considered by courts in DC as well as some of the outstanding charges in Virginia.

    It is a very complicated picture and it is not easy to unpick it to fully see how today's plea bargain was agreed.

    On cases of this complexity and importance to the understanding of how Trump's campaign operated, I still maintain that it is better for these things to be fully explored in open court. I know people are entitled to plead guilty. But the preponderance of plea bargains in these particular cases is not good at achieving real insight into the issues that concern people.
    The large majority of criminal cases in this country involve guilty pleas as well. You don't get to send people to trial for administrative convenience of they prefer the alternative.

    As for the two jurisdictions, opting for separate trials was entirely Manafort's choice.
  • tysontyson Posts: 4,461
    RobD said:

    Is anyone actually going to be tried and convicted? :p
    Erghh...Paul Manafort.....

  • RobDRobD Posts: 34,621
    murali_s said:

    Love it!

    The biggest c*nt in British politics!
    Encouraging violence against politicians. What could possibly go wrong?
  • murali_s said:

    Love it!

    The biggest c*nt in British politics!
    Boris doesn't have the depth nor the warmth.
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 4,378
    RobD said:

    murali_s said:

    Love it!

    The biggest c*nt in British politics!
    Encouraging violence against politicians. What could possibly go wrong?
    It really is an inappropriate idea.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 8,666
    RobD said:

    murali_s said:

    Love it!

    The biggest c*nt in British politics!
    Encouraging violence against politicians. What could possibly go wrong?
    There is strong scientific support for the safety and efficacy of giving effigies a good pasting:
    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/sep/14/voodoo-doll-and-cannibalism-studies-triumph-at-ig-nobels
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 2,247

    murali_s said:

    Love it!

    The biggest c*nt in British politics!
    Boris doesn't have the depth nor the warmth.
    +1

    Haha! True!
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,061
    edited September 14

    Anazina said:

    The new editor is clearly sticking up for his core constituency – the middle classes. A house price crash suits them not.

    A house price crash makes it easier to move up market and/or a better area or even to London.
    Mortgage lender will collapse, so very unlikely.No-one is going to lend 70 LTV if prices are down 35% y-o-y
    If you have £400,000 equity in a £500,000 house you can buy an £800,000 house with a £400,000 mortgage, only 50% LTV.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 46,447
    Mr. B, recall reading a news article about a psychological study into using a punching bag to blow off steam. Found that it worked, initially, to relieve stress, but getting that same release required increasing workout intensity and ended up creating more anger than it relieved.

    Quote I had at the start of Journey to Altmortis is by Marcus Aurelius:
    How much more grievous are the consequences of anger than the causes of it.
  • RobD said:

    murali_s said:

    Love it!

    The biggest c*nt in British politics!
    Encouraging violence against politicians. What could possibly go wrong?
    It really is an inappropriate idea.
    Don't be such a snowflake, it is just like when Kenny Everett told the Tory conference to kick Michael Foot's cane.

    Just a bit of fun in the best possible taste
  • Just over halfway into the podcast.

    Given the centre-left likes the centre but the centre-right does not seem to, that suggests a 'centrist' party would just be soft left, rather than balanced (as the term implies).

    Evidence for the assertions about centres left and right?
  • oxfordsimonoxfordsimon Posts: 4,378

    RobD said:

    murali_s said:

    Love it!

    The biggest c*nt in British politics!
    Encouraging violence against politicians. What could possibly go wrong?
    It really is an inappropriate idea.
    Don't be such a snowflake, it is just like when Kenny Everett told the Tory conference to kick Michael Foot's cane.

    Just a bit of fun in the best possible taste
    In the current climate, encouraging violence against politicians is not something I can condone - even if it can be viewed as 'just a bit of fun'

    That is not about being a snowflake, it is about not wanting to further add to the febrile atmosphere that exists at the moment.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 10,360
    We had an MP assassinated a couple of years ago. I wouldn't make a habit of encouraging violence against them at the mo.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 46,447
    Mr. Evershed, in the polling, the centre-left tends to quite like the centre, but the centre-right prefers the right.

    There's also the current political landscape to consider. Sane Labour types would be the most obvious potential members. They can still be pretty left yet far to the right of Comrade Corbyn.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 20,287
    edited September 14
    I can't help feeling that it would have been a lot less trouble for Paul Manafort to have registered as a lobbyist and paid the 37% tax on his foreign income, all things considered.
  • Anazina said:

    The new editor is clearly sticking up for his core constituency – the middle classes. A house price crash suits them not.

    A house price crash makes it easier to move up market and/or a better area or even to London.
    Mortgage lender will collapse, so very unlikely.No-one is going to lend 70 LTV if prices are down 35% y-o-y
    If you have £400,000 equity in a £500,000 house you can buy an £800,000 house with a £400,000 mortgage, only 50% LTV.
    But if say house values have been wiped by at least 35% in a short space of time then lenders will be wary about lending to high value properties.

    They don't wish to be ones without a chair when the music stops.
This discussion has been closed.