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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Betfair punters make it about an evens chance that TMay will b

SystemSystem Posts: 11,007
edited September 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Betfair punters make it about an evens chance that TMay will be out next year – I’m not tempted

One of the great jobs of returning from a longish holiday is reviewing how things have changed while you’ve been away and the biggest move over the past three weeks is how the Chequers Brexit plan is gathering support. Maybe the Mail was following rather than leading. TMay’s big gamble might just succeed.

Read the full story here


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Comments

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    Unfortunately I tend to agree with OGH here. I'd chuck Chequers but for the reasons he gives something like it will probably be where we end up.
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    Second! Like Remain...
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,378

    Unfortunately I tend to agree with OGH here. I'd chuck Chequers but for the reasons he gives something like it will probably be where we end up.

    Yes, this ought not to be a particularly controversial thread.
    Although the B word was mentioned, so it will probably turn out like all the others for the past year or so...
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    AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    May is going nowhere.

    Have you seen the assortment of clowns, dipsticks and lunatics lining up to replace her?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,531
    Nigelb said:

    Unfortunately I tend to agree with OGH here. I'd chuck Chequers but for the reasons he gives something like it will probably be where we end up.

    Yes, this ought not to be a particularly controversial thread.
    Although the B word was mentioned, so it will probably turn out like all the others for the past year or so...
    Like the Scottish Neverendum, Brexit will run and run.

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    Agree with OGH.

    On the Brexiteers:

    Ten days ago, members of the European Research Group of Eurosceptic Conservative MPs were feeling upbeat about their prospects, believing the tide was turning away from Theresa May’s Chequers deal and towards their preference for a harder Canada-style Brexit. And then came the week from hell.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/brexiteer-mps-say-theyre-in-despair-after-their-challenge
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Anazina said:

    May is going nowhere.

    Have you seen the assortment of clowns, dipsticks and lunatics lining up to replace her?

    Sajid Javid is which?
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    FPT:

    Sajid Javid, the home secretary, has suggested to colleagues that he wants to introduce limits and visas for EU citizens after Brexit.

    In a move likely to cause tit-for-tat retaliation by Europe, the Home Office informed cabinet ministers last week of its intention to copy the existing migration system used to determine non-EU migration and apply it to Europeans who arrive in Britain after December 2020.

    The new system, which is still being agreed across government, will be sold as a “global” migration system, ending free movement for the EU.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3712652c-bac1-11e8-9e6e-515c1ae38369
  • Options
    How did Mrs May do on TV last night?

    I didn’t watch it as I was at the cinema watching the Mamma Mia 2 sing a long version.
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    Anazina said:

    May is going nowhere.

    Have you seen the assortment of clowns, dipsticks and lunatics lining up to replace her?

    Sajid Javid is which?
    Which makes his immigration pitch interesting......
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692
    We're heading for a Chequers+- ?
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    ..the woman who has by then delivered Brexit wants to stay put?

    Brexit will only be half delivered in March. There will still be the future trade agreement to negotiate - assuming we've successfully agreed a withdrawal agreement and made it to transition.

    If May successfully agrees an EU trade deal by the end of 2020 then perhaps the risk of a Johnson leadership will be reduced, she can resign with dignity, and the Party can choose a new leader with a couple of years to sell themselves to the electorate.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited September 2018
    OGH is right that the Brexiteers don't have the votes but no Conservative MP will want Theresa May leading them into GE2022 so it is a question of when she goes, not if. Evens 2019 does not appeal if the PM wants to hang on till 2021. Five years as PM and a sort-of GE win last year puts her close to John Major and she will be 65 which iirc is when Mrs Thatcher left Downing Street so it is possible to imagine Theresa May will have that year in mind.

    But if the Brexiteers do accidentally trigger a vote of no confidence next week or next year, the PM is toast.
  • Options

    How did Mrs May do on TV last night?

    I didn’t watch it as I was at the cinema watching the Mamma Mia 2 sing a long version.

    You've probably already seen most of the May clips on the news - much of it was Toenails talking and talking heads from Soubry, to Starmer to JRM and Davies. The funniest bit was Philip May complimenting the chrysanthemums in Chequers and Mrs May slightly testily pointing out they were dahlias......
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    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,924
    Personal positives are that she’s only 62, with a settled and supportive home life, therefore could reasonably be expected to be fit enough go on until her late 60’s. Against that she’s diabetic, but she takes holidays which require a good level of physical fitness. She also seems confident in herself, is a ‘practising Anglican’ and it doesn’t seem to worry her when she’s criticised.
    No reason therefore why, assuming she retains some sort of support from the Tory Party and the House of Commons why she shouldn’t go until after 2022. After the GE that year’ll see.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Why is OGH illustrating a thread about Theresa May with a picture of Noel Gallagher?
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    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    The hard right and the far left both see a hard Brexit/No Deal Brexit as a political opportunity. There is no doubt about that.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited September 2018
    Provided May gets a Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period she may well stay on as PM well past Brexit to try and use her Chequers Deal as the basis to negotiate a FTA during that transition period.

    She is also polling a lot better than Brown was 2 years into his premiership despite similar pressure to dump him in favour of a younger model like David Miliband and of course he did lead Labour in 2010, an election resulting in a hung parliament. Unless anti Boris MPs can be sure they could get something like a Javid v Hancock final 2 sent to the members they will also not want to risk Boris or Mogg getting on the ballot paper
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    Why is OGH illustrating a thread about Theresa May with a picture of Noel Gallagher?

    If we're talking about oil paintings, then your profile pic must be one of the better ones of your good self ... ;)
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,576
    edited September 2018
    She's snookered......

    https://twitter.com/business/status/1041942283355082752

    On the other hand....

    Some 85 percent of the academics said the U.K. would leave the EU as planned on March 29, and almost three quarters thought there’s unlikely to be a second referendum on Brexit. Pressure is mounting on opposition Labour Party Leader Jeremy Corbyn to support one, though fewer than a third of respondents thought the party would change its stance.
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    FPT:

    Sajid Javid, the home secretary, has suggested to colleagues that he wants to introduce limits and visas for EU citizens after Brexit.

    In a move likely to cause tit-for-tat retaliation by Europe, the Home Office informed cabinet ministers last week of its intention to copy the existing migration system used to determine non-EU migration and apply it to Europeans who arrive in Britain after December 2020.

    The new system, which is still being agreed across government, will be sold as a “global” migration system, ending free movement for the EU.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3712652c-bac1-11e8-9e6e-515c1ae38369

    In other words, he wants to make it much harder for UK citizens to live and work in Europe than it is currently. If you're rich you'll be fine; if not - then you're buggered.

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    FishingFishing Posts: 4,560
    OGH is right. I've often thought that TM could do a JM and remain for several years as PM. Hopefully it won't end the same way though.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    How did Mrs May do on TV last night?

    I didn’t watch it as I was at the cinema watching the Mamma Mia 2 sing a long version.

    She spent the end of it watching 'The Chase' on ITV with Philip in the Chequers Lounge while doing her red box
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,907
    I've been laying May to go between Oct - Dec of this year. Available at about 6.5 still I think on betfair.
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    So, we can add Ester McVey to the long list of right wing Tory Brexiteers that do not have the first idea about Brexit. How talentless must the Tory party be that so many of these people have risen to the top? Of course, you can say exactly the same thing about Labour - but at least Corbyn has made a positive decision to promote non-entities and half-wits to the shadow front benches.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Fishing said:

    OGH is right. I've often thought that TM could do a JM and remain for several years as PM. Hopefully it won't end the same way though.

    She is the best of a bad lot
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    ExiledInScotlandExiledInScotland Posts: 1,503
    edited September 2018
    HYUFD said:

    Provided May gets a Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period she may well stay on as PM well past Brexit to try and use her Chequers Deal as the basis to negotiate a FTA during that transition period.

    She is also polling a lot better than Brown was 2 years into his premiership despite similar pressure to dump him in favour of a younger model like David Miliband and of course he did lead Labour in 2010, an election resulting in a hung parliament. Unless anti Boris MPs can be sure they could get something like a Javid v Hancock final 2 sent to the members they will also not want to risk Boris or Mogg getting on the ballot paper

    I’m not sure likening May to Brown is a positive for her.
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    FPT:

    Sajid Javid, the home secretary, has suggested to colleagues that he wants to introduce limits and visas for EU citizens after Brexit.

    In a move likely to cause tit-for-tat retaliation by Europe, the Home Office informed cabinet ministers last week of its intention to copy the existing migration system used to determine non-EU migration and apply it to Europeans who arrive in Britain after December 2020.

    The new system, which is still being agreed across government, will be sold as a “global” migration system, ending free movement for the EU.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3712652c-bac1-11e8-9e6e-515c1ae38369

    In other words, he wants to make it much harder for UK citizens to live and work in Europe than it is currently. If you're rich you'll be fine; if not - then you're buggered.

    Given the concerns of voters (the overwhelming majority of who live/work in the UK) over immigration and given the EU sends us more than three times as many workers than we send them - do you not see the attraction of this to the 'average voter' rather than the completely atypical 'UK citizen who wants to work in Europe The EU'?

    Also many expat Brits already go to work/live in countries that require paperwork to work/settle. Why this fetishisation of the EU?
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    HYUFD said:

    Provided May gets a Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period she may well stay on as PM well past Brexit to try and use her Chequers Deal as the basis to negotiate a FTA during that transition period.

    She is also polling a lot better than Brown was 2 years into his premiership despite similar pressure to dump him in favour of a younger model like David Miliband and of course he did lead Labour in 2010, an election resulting in a hung parliament. Unless anti Boris MPs can be sure they could get something like a Javid v Hancock final 2 sent to the members they will also not want to risk Boris or Mogg getting on the ballot paper

    I’m not sure likening May to Brown is a positive for her.
    The grief I used to get for comparing Mrs May to Gordon Brown.
  • Options

    How did Mrs May do on TV last night?

    I didn’t watch it as I was at the cinema watching the Mamma Mia 2 sing a long version.

    You've probably already seen most of the May clips on the news - much of it was Toenails talking and talking heads from Soubry, to Starmer to JRM and Davies. The funniest bit was Philip May complimenting the chrysanthemums in Chequers and Mrs May slightly testily pointing out they were dahlias......

    Ta.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943
    edited September 2018

    HYUFD said:

    Provided May gets a Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period she may well stay on as PM well past Brexit to try and use her Chequers Deal as the basis to negotiate a FTA during that transition period.

    She is also polling a lot better than Brown was 2 years into his premiership despite similar pressure to dump him in favour of a younger model like David Miliband and of course he did lead Labour in 2010, an election resulting in a hung parliament. Unless anti Boris MPs can be sure they could get something like a Javid v Hancock final 2 sent to the members they will also not want to risk Boris or Mogg getting on the ballot paper

    I’m not sure likening May to Brown is a positive for her.
    Despite everything Brown prevented a Tory majority in 2010 and had he managed to do a deal with the LDs rather than Cameron would have remained PM or at least enabled a deal that a new Labour leader could have become PM.
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    The general election last year shows that Theresa May can do something different from what was previously advertised. When she does go, if she’s not pushed, it will be very sudden. Evens for next year looks about right to me.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    Why is OGH illustrating a thread about Theresa May with a picture of Noel Gallagher?

    If we're talking about oil paintings, then your profile pic must be one of the better ones of your good self ... ;)
    It was a bad hair day....
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    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,531
    FF43 said:

    We're heading for a Chequers+- ?

    Increasingly EEA minus.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,531

    Anazina said:

    May is going nowhere.

    Have you seen the assortment of clowns, dipsticks and lunatics lining up to replace her?

    Sajid Javid is which?
    Dipstick.
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    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
  • Options

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It would be interesting to see the top ten for current emigrants rather than the cumulative historical top ten. It may or may not look quite different.
  • Options

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
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    Foxy said:

    FF43 said:

    We're heading for a Chequers+- ?

    Increasingly EEA minus.
    Increasingly No Deal.

    Explain to me how you think May will sign up to the NI backstop when the DUP will no-confidence her if she does? You don't get a prize for just saying it will be 'fudged'.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    HYUFD said:

    Provided May gets a Withdrawal Agreement and Transition Period she may well stay on as PM well past Brexit to try and use her Chequers Deal as the basis to negotiate a FTA during that transition period.

    She is also polling a lot better than Brown was 2 years into his premiership despite similar pressure to dump him in favour of a younger model like David Miliband and of course he did lead Labour in 2010, an election resulting in a hung parliament. Unless anti Boris MPs can be sure they could get something like a Javid v Hancock final 2 sent to the members they will also not want to risk Boris or Mogg getting on the ballot paper

    I’m not sure likening May to Brown is a positive for her.
    The grief I used to get for comparing Mrs May to Gordon Brown.
    and fully deserved too.
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    Foxy said:

    FF43 said:

    We're heading for a Chequers+- ?

    Increasingly EEA minus.
    Increasingly No Deal.

    Explain to me how you think May will sign up to the NI backstop when the DUP will no-confidence her if she does? You don't get a prize for just saying it will be 'fudged'.
    I fear you are mistaking what you wish to happen with what will happen - a common mistake that afflicts most of us, and is rather dangerous for a bettor.

    For one thing, the DUP's position might be somewhat more flexible than you think, especially when the reality of a no-deal hits them.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,692

    How did Mrs May do on TV last night?

    I didn’t watch it as I was at the cinema watching the Mamma Mia 2 sing a long version.

    Basically May was saying,


    I wonder, it's frightening
    Leaving now, is that the right thing?
    I wonder, it scares me
    But who the the hell am I if I don't even try
    I'm not a coward
    Oh no, I'll be strong
    One chance in a lifetime
    Yes I will take it, it can't go wrong

  • Options

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    I already live with the consequences of a Corbyn Government. The Liberals are in power in Australia. There is really not much difference. Union control of almost all wages and conditions, curbs on freedom of speech, massive borrowing, bribes paid out to voters, no defence forces, political correctness run amok, schools with no competitive ethos spending their whole time teaching children left wing propaganda. JC would be right at home!
  • Options

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
    Just calling out the hypocrites.

    If Archer is so keen for a Hard Brexit/Corbyn government then he should move to the UK.

    Otherwise he’s as yellow as the Australian rugby/cricket shirt.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
    Just calling out the hypocrites.

    If Archer is so keen for a Hard Brexit/Corbyn government then he should move to the UK.

    Otherwise he’s as yellow as the Australian rugby/cricket shirt.
    your e spending too much time on Brexit bollocks, its clouding your judgement

    I recommend a week off PB to go shoe shopping
  • Options

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    I already live with the consequences of a Corbyn Government. The Liberals are in power in Australia. There is really not much difference. Union control of almost all wages and conditions, curbs on freedom of speech, massive borrowing, bribes paid out to voters, no defence forces, political correctness run amok, schools with no competitive ethos spending their whole time teaching children left wing propaganda. JC would be right at home!
    You’re just a cowardly kangaroo botherer.

    Man up and move to the UK.
  • Options

    Foxy said:

    FF43 said:

    We're heading for a Chequers+- ?

    Increasingly EEA minus.
    Increasingly No Deal.

    Explain to me how you think May will sign up to the NI backstop when the DUP will no-confidence her if she does? You don't get a prize for just saying it will be 'fudged'.
    I fear you are mistaking what you wish to happen with what will happen - a common mistake that afflicts most of us, and is rather dangerous for a bettor.

    For one thing, the DUP's position might be somewhat more flexible than you think, especially when the reality of a no-deal hits them.
    People have lost a lot of money betting that the DUP are bluffing over the years.

    Again, if you can come up with a scenario for an NI backstop feel free. But my position is based on analysis. No progress has been made at all in nine months. The EU are still talking about de-dramatising an Irish Sea border. The two sides are miles apart.
  • Options

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
    Just calling out the hypocrites.

    If Archer is so keen for a Hard Brexit/Corbyn government then he should move to the UK.

    Otherwise he’s as yellow as the Australian rugby/cricket shirt.
    your e spending too much time on Brexit bollocks, its clouding your judgement

    I recommend a week off PB to go shoe shopping
    I wish I could.

    I’m spending the week in Germany thanks to Brexit.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Without getting into the substance the part of the Times article that @carlottavance linked to is a great example of the really poor journalism that has confused the discussion of Brexit

    Javid has proposed applying the same immigration system we have globally to the EU. This is characterised as an attack on the EU which is worthy of “tit for tat retaliation”

    That’s simply not true.

    Either we agree a deal on visa rights with the EU in which case we have a bespoke arrangement with them

    Or we don’t in which case we apply the global approach

    But characterising a move from one to the other is not an attack worthy of retaliation. It’s the product of the failure of the EU and the U.K. to agree a deal that is attractive to both sides

    I don’t know if it’s poor journalism or sloppy subbing or unconscious bias but in any case it’s unworthy of the Times

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    I already live with the consequences of a Corbyn Government. The Liberals are in power in Australia. There is really not much difference. Union control of almost all wages and conditions, curbs on freedom of speech, massive borrowing, bribes paid out to voters, no defence forces, political correctness run amok, schools with no competitive ethos spending their whole time teaching children left wing propaganda. JC would be right at home!
    Australia spends about 35% of GDP, one of the lowest rates in the Western world and has lower taxes than us and is on most measures even closer to the USA .

    Even Australian Labor leader Bill Shorten is more Ed Miliband than Jeremy Corbyn
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
    Just calling out the hypocrites.

    If Archer is so keen for a Hard Brexit/Corbyn government then he should move to the UK.

    Otherwise he’s as yellow as the Australian rugby/cricket shirt.
    your e spending too much time on Brexit bollocks, its clouding your judgement

    I recommend a week off PB to go shoe shopping
    I wish I could.

    I’m spending the week in Germany thanks to Brexit.
    anywhere nice ?

    avoid Frankfurt :-)
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
    Just calling out the hypocrites.

    If Archer is so keen for a Hard Brexit/Corbyn government then he should move to the UK.

    Otherwise he’s as yellow as the Australian rugby/cricket shirt.
    your e spending too much time on Brexit bollocks, its clouding your judgement

    I recommend a week off PB to go shoe shopping
    I wish I could.

    I’m spending the week in Germany thanks to Brexit.
    You’ll enjoy the back to the future that is Peek & Cloppenburg and the delight that is Schweizer Strasse then. Be sure to visit the Anglo-Irish for a true taste of the sophisticated expat lifestyle.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,943

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It would be interesting to see the top ten for current emigrants rather than the cumulative historical top ten. It may or may not look quite different.
    Australia, New Zealand and Canada are the 3 most popular countries voters might move to post Brexit

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.pssremovals.com/blog/survey-reveals-australia-new-zealand-top-countries-britons-want-move-to-brexit/amp/
  • Options

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
    Just calling out the hypocrites.

    If Archer is so keen for a Hard Brexit/Corbyn government then he should move to the UK.

    Otherwise he’s as yellow as the Australian rugby/cricket shirt.
    your e spending too much time on Brexit bollocks, its clouding your judgement

    I recommend a week off PB to go shoe shopping
    I wish I could.

    I’m spending the week in Germany thanks to Brexit.
    anywhere nice ?

    avoid Frankfurt :-)
    Mostly München, Berlin, Bonn, and with a dash of Frankfurt.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,907
    edited September 2018

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It would be interesting to see the top ten for current emigrants rather than the cumulative historical top ten. It may or may not look quite different.
    According to this it's: USA (1), Australia (2), UAE (3), Canada (4), Spain (5), NZ (6), Germany (7), Ireland (8), France (9) and Singapore (10).

    https://www.movehub.com/blog/top-10-countries-brits-choose/
  • Options
    Just a wild thought. Is it possible for the No Confidence vote to be triggered by accident, say by one MP sending in a letter when one hasn't got around to removing one?
    Would the chairman of the 1922 committee check with all the letter senders that they still mean it? Is it common knowledge amongst Tory MPs as to the number submitted or does nobody know?
  • Options
    HYUFD said:

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    I already live with the consequences of a Corbyn Government. The Liberals are in power in Australia. There is really not much difference. Union control of almost all wages and conditions, curbs on freedom of speech, massive borrowing, bribes paid out to voters, no defence forces, political correctness run amok, schools with no competitive ethos spending their whole time teaching children left wing propaganda. JC would be right at home!
    Australia spends about 35% of GDP, one of the lowest rates in the Western world and has lower taxes than us and is on most measures even closer to the USA .

    Even Australian Labor leader Bill Shorten is more Ed Miliband than Jeremy Corbyn
    As with many things, you speak with a lot of authority but don't know what you are talking about. Australia's tax spend looks low because of the superannuation system but the overall impact is the same, the categorisation is different. But taxes here are just as high if not higher than elsewhere - for example the top marginal rate is 47%.

    Not even Jeremy Corbyn could imagine proposing a system where a bunch of ex-trade union bosses set wages and conditions for huge chunks of the economy without employers having any ability to negotiate their own terms and wages. Here, the Liberals fully support this.
  • Options
    mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    rkrkrk said:

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It would be interesting to see the top ten for current emigrants rather than the cumulative historical top ten. It may or may not look quite different.
    According to this it's: USA (1), Australia (2), UAE (3), Canada (4), Spain (5), NZ (6), Germany (7), Ireland (8), France (9) and Singapore (10).

    https://www.movehub.com/blog/top-10-countries-brits-choose/
    I suspect for working age population one can knock Spain off the list immediately (and perhaps so for France as well). Nobody in their right mind would retire to Sylt though. The list basically reflects dynamic English speaking economies which, as much as anything, shows our language skills and where we have cultural affinity to.
  • Options
    JohnRussellJohnRussell Posts: 297
    edited September 2018

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It would be interesting to see the top ten for current emigrants rather than the cumulative historical top ten. It may or may not look quite different.
    Of EU citizens who migrate, the UK has the lowest percentage who go to the EU.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/livingabroad/april2018#do-british-citizens-migrate-to-the-eu-more-or-less-than-other-eu-countries-citizens
  • Options

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It features very prominently in the minds of people who might want to live and work in Europe. If my maths is right, France, Germany and Spain combined comes to around 560,000. That looks like a pretty large number to me. Then there are 23 other European countries to factor in, which would probably take us to at least the Canadian figure.

  • Options
    FF43 said:

    How did Mrs May do on TV last night?

    I didn’t watch it as I was at the cinema watching the Mamma Mia 2 sing a long version.

    Basically May was saying,


    I wonder, it's frightening
    Leaving now, is that the right thing?
    I wonder, it scares me
    But who the the hell am I if I don't even try
    I'm not a coward
    Oh no, I'll be strong
    One chance in a lifetime
    Yes I will take it, it can't go wrong

    That should be set to music.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
    Just calling out the hypocrites.

    If Archer is so keen for a Hard Brexit/Corbyn government then he should move to the UK.

    Otherwise he’s as yellow as the Australian rugby/cricket shirt.
    your e spending too much time on Brexit bollocks, its clouding your judgement

    I recommend a week off PB to go shoe shopping
    I wish I could.

    I’m spending the week in Germany thanks to Brexit.
    anywhere nice ?

    avoid Frankfurt :-)
    Mostly München, Berlin, Bonn, and with a dash of Frankfurt.
    too much travel not enough tourism

    Bonn's even more boring than Frankfurt. Do a runner and spend the day at Burg Eltz then visit a vineyard on the Rhine or Mosel

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eltz_Castle

  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,907
    matt said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It would be interesting to see the top ten for current emigrants rather than the cumulative historical top ten. It may or may not look quite different.
    According to this it's: USA (1), Australia (2), UAE (3), Canada (4), Spain (5), NZ (6), Germany (7), Ireland (8), France (9) and Singapore (10).

    https://www.movehub.com/blog/top-10-countries-brits-choose/
    I suspect for working age population one can knock Spain off the list immediately (and perhaps so for France as well). Nobody in their right mind would retire to Sylt though. The list basically reflects dynamic English speaking economies which, as much as anything, shows our language skills and where we have cultural affinity to.
    Yes I agree. Exporting oldies is probably a good deal for the UK. Exporting young people to Singapore and UAE who plan to come back when they are less economically productive isn't such a great trade.
  • Options
    FPT
    rcs1000 said:

    Sorry to butt in, but I was gobsmacked by that question. Yes of course the years since 2010 have been good ones for the country and all its citizens - probably the best since Maggie rescued the country from the horrors of the 1970s. That's not to say everything is easy or wonderful, but compared with the utter disaster inherited in 2010, and the dire predictions of 5 million unemployed, and the experience of comparable countries, this has without doubt been a good period in the UK.

    Only to the believers that pray to the god of GDP.
    We have experienced the consequences of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.
    Crimes that people experience and may not be reported in the stats is trough the roof.
    The police can not be bothered to investigate.
    London seems to be a war zone, stabbings, acid and moped crimes, let alone the riots.
    Wages are stagnant, bosses are throwing 20 quid notes out of the window,
    We are plagued by nuisance calls for PFI, etc.
    The politicians are still clueless.
    Social housing has collapsed.
    The Govt has been sacking serving soldiers returning from active service,
    The Govt has paid for people to harass and investigate ex-service people without giving them legal representation.
    I could go on, but I will stop there.
    I'd be interested to know which golden age you are using as your baseline for comparison.
    The ultimate political answer of a question.
    But to answer your question the last time I think the UK felt comfortable with itslef was the end of Major and the early Blair years.
    It's true that Ken Clarke left a great economic legacy, which lasted for a bit before Brown started making his own decisions. But crime was higher then, and most of the other things you complain of date back to then.

    Clarke's great economic legacy being the total collapse of the Conservatives' economic policy on Black Wednesday followed by devaluation and a large fall in interest rates that had the previous Chancellor singing in the bath.
    I would argue that Kenneth Clarke was the last Chancellor to encourage saving, through ISAs, PEPs and the like. Remember that trade deficits and surpluses have nothing to do with exchange rates, and everything to do with savings rates.
    I think there's a close connection between savings rates and its imports but there has to be a relation between a country's exchange rate and its exports.

    There's certainly been a notable increase in British exports during the last two years:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/timeseries/ikbh/mret
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It features very prominently in the minds of people who might want to live and work (but mostly retire) in Europe. If my maths is right, France, Germany and Spain combined comes to around 560,000. That looks like a pretty large number to me. Then there are 23 other European countries to factor in, which would probably take us to at least the Canadian figure.

    Fixed that for you.
  • Options

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
    Just calling out the hypocrites.

    If Archer is so keen for a Hard Brexit/Corbyn government then he should move to the UK.

    Otherwise he’s as yellow as the Australian rugby/cricket shirt.
    your e spending too much time on Brexit bollocks, its clouding your judgement

    I recommend a week off PB to go shoe shopping
    I wish I could.

    I’m spending the week in Germany thanks to Brexit.
    anywhere nice ?

    avoid Frankfurt :-)
    Mostly München, Berlin, Bonn, and with a dash of Frankfurt.
    too much travel not enough tourism

    Bonn's even more boring than Frankfurt. Do a runner and spend the day at Burg Eltz then visit a vineyard on the Rhine or Mosel

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eltz_Castle

    Am going to be in München during Oktoberfest.

    I should fit right in.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It features very prominently in the minds of people who might want to live and work in Europe. If my maths is right, France, Germany and Spain combined comes to around 560,000. That looks like a pretty large number to me. Then there are 23 other European countries to factor in, which would probably take us to at least the Canadian figure.

    Spain and France are more likely retirees than workers.
  • Options

    FPT:

    Sajid Javid, the home secretary, has suggested to colleagues that he wants to introduce limits and visas for EU citizens after Brexit.

    In a move likely to cause tit-for-tat retaliation by Europe, the Home Office informed cabinet ministers last week of its intention to copy the existing migration system used to determine non-EU migration and apply it to Europeans who arrive in Britain after December 2020.

    The new system, which is still being agreed across government, will be sold as a “global” migration system, ending free movement for the EU.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3712652c-bac1-11e8-9e6e-515c1ae38369

    In other words, he wants to make it much harder for UK citizens to live and work in Europe than it is currently. If you're rich you'll be fine; if not - then you're buggered.

    Given the concerns of voters (the overwhelming majority of who live/work in the UK) over immigration and given the EU sends us more than three times as many workers than we send them - do you not see the attraction of this to the 'average voter' rather than the completely atypical 'UK citizen who wants to work in Europe The EU'?

    Also many expat Brits already go to work/live in countries that require paperwork to work/settle. Why this fetishisation of the EU?

    I just find the framing interesting. What he is proposing is a system that will make it harder for people to live and work in Europe. It will also, of course, make it much harder for anyone who falls in love with an EU national to live with them in the UK. Rights of any kind are always theoretical until you wish to exercise them.

  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754
    edited September 2018

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
    Just calling out the hypocrites.

    If Archer is so keen for a Hard Brexit/Corbyn government then he should move to the UK.

    Otherwise he’s as yellow as the Australian rugby/cricket shirt.
    your e spending too much time on Brexit bollocks, its clouding your judgement

    I recommend a week off PB to go shoe shopping
    I wish I could.

    I’m spending the week in Germany thanks to Brexit.
    anywhere nice ?

    avoid Frankfurt :-)
    Mostly München, Berlin, Bonn, and with a dash of Frankfurt.
    too much travel not enough tourism

    Bonn's even more boring than Frankfurt. Do a runner and spend the day at Burg Eltz then visit a vineyard on the Rhine or Mosel

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eltz_Castle

    Am going to be in München during Oktoberfest.

    I should fit right in.
    nah its overrated.

    unless youre planning to mount a putsch from a beerhall and declare yourself dictator theres not much going for it
  • Options

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It would be interesting to see the top ten for current emigrants rather than the cumulative historical top ten. It may or may not look quite different.
    Of EU citizens who migrate, the UK has the lowest percentage who go to the EU.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/livingabroad/april2018#do-british-citizens-migrate-to-the-eu-more-or-less-than-other-eu-countries-citizens
    UN Migrant stock data for 2017 shows that 26% of migrants who were born in the UK and living abroad were living in another EU country (6% of which lived in Ireland). The UK had a smaller proportion of emigrants living in another EU country than any other EU country. By comparison, 44% of those born in Germany emigrate to another EU country, and 49% of those born in France.

    So 20% of UK emigrants might be affected by this - and ±75% are already used to work permits / visa restrictions when they do emigrate. A bigger issue in the minds of the Tuscan second home owning commentariat than in ordinary voters, I suspect.
  • Options

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
    Just calling out the hypocrites.

    If Archer is so keen for a Hard Brexit/Corbyn government then he should move to the UK.

    Otherwise he’s as yellow as the Australian rugby/cricket shirt.
    your e spending too much time on Brexit bollocks, its clouding your judgement

    I recommend a week off PB to go shoe shopping
    I wish I could.

    I’m spending the week in Germany thanks to Brexit.
    anywhere nice ?

    avoid Frankfurt :-)
    Mostly München, Berlin, Bonn, and with a dash of Frankfurt.
    too much travel not enough tourism

    Bonn's even more boring than Frankfurt. Do a runner and spend the day at Burg Eltz then visit a vineyard on the Rhine or Mosel

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eltz_Castle

    Am going to be in München during Oktoberfest.

    I should fit right in.
    nah its overrated.

    unless youre planning to mount a putsch from a beerhall and declare yourself dictator theres not much going for it
    Oh I don’t know.

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7207106/oktoberfest-beer-festival-backlash-sex-clothes/
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
    Just calling out the hypocrites.

    If Archer is so keen for a Hard Brexit/Corbyn government then he should move to the UK.

    Otherwise he’s as yellow as the Australian rugby/cricket shirt.
    your e spending too much time on Brexit bollocks, its clouding your judgement

    I recommend a week off PB to go shoe shopping
    I wish I could.

    I’m spending the week in Germany thanks to Brexit.
    anywhere nice ?

    avoid Frankfurt :-)
    Mostly München, Berlin, Bonn, and with a dash of Frankfurt.
    too much travel not enough tourism

    Bonn's even more boring than Frankfurt. Do a runner and spend the day at Burg Eltz then visit a vineyard on the Rhine or Mosel

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eltz_Castle

    Am going to be in München during Oktoberfest.

    I should fit right in.
    Word of advice: don’t go on the Big Drop after drinking a maast.

    I made that mistake once
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    FPT

    rcs1000 said:

    Sorry to butt in, but I was gobsmacked by that question. Yes of course the years since 2010 have been good ones for the country and all its citizens - probably the best since Maggie rescued the country from the horrors of the 1970s. That's not to say everything is easy or wonderful, but compared with the utter disaster inherited in 2010, and the dire predictions of 5 million unemployed, and the experience of comparable countries, this has without doubt been a good period in the UK.

    Only to the believers that pray to the god of GDP.
    We have experienced the consequences of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.
    Crimes that people experience and may not be reported in the stats is trough the roof.
    The police can not be bothered to investigate.
    London seems to be a war zone, stabbings, acid and moped crimes, let alone the riots.
    Wages are stagnant, bosses are throwing 20 quid notes out of the window,
    We are plagued by nuisance calls for PFI, etc.
    The politicians are still clueless.
    Social housing has collapsed.
    The Govt has been sacking serving soldiers returning from active service,
    The Govt has paid for people to harass and investigate ex-service people without giving them legal representation.
    I could go on, but I will stop there.
    I'd be interested to know which golden age you are using as your baseline for comparison.
    The ultimate political answer of a question.
    But to answer your question the last time I think the UK felt comfortable with itslef was the end of Major and the early Blair years.
    It's true that Ken Clarke left a to then.

    Clarke's great economic legacy being the total collapse of the Conservatives' economic policy on Black Wednesday followed by devaluation and a large fall in interest rates that had the previous Chancellor singing in the bath.
    I would argue that Kenneth Clarke was the savings rates.
    I think there's a close connection between savings rates and its imports but there has to be a relation between a country's exchange rate and its exports.

    There's certainly been a notable increase in British exports during the last two years:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/timeseries/ikbh/mret
    it;s since we got rid of Osborne :-)
  • Options

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It features very prominently in the minds of people who might want to live and work in Europe. If my maths is right, France, Germany and Spain combined comes to around 560,000. That looks like a pretty large number to me. Then there are 23 other European countries to factor in, which would probably take us to at least the Canadian figure.

    Spain and France are more likely retirees than workers.

    Without doubt. And in the future both will revert to being what they were previously: countries in which rich Brits could settle down and live out their twilight years, but which average punters could only visit. Unless, of course, they also have Irish passports ;-)

  • Options
    tlg86 said:

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It features very prominently in the minds of people who might want to live and work (but mostly retire) in Europe. If my maths is right, France, Germany and Spain combined comes to around 560,000. That looks like a pretty large number to me. Then there are 23 other European countries to factor in, which would probably take us to at least the Canadian figure.

    Fixed that for you.

    The rules will apply to retirees, too. They are not exempt. They also "live" in the countries they choose to retire to.

  • Options
    eekeek Posts: 24,932

    Just a wild thought. Is it possible for the No Confidence vote to be triggered by accident, say by one MP sending in a letter when one hasn't got around to removing one?
    Would the chairman of the 1922 committee check with all the letter senders that they still mean it? Is it common knowledge amongst Tory MPs as to the number submitted or does nobody know?

    I suspect your answer depends on the mood of the chair of the 1922 committee. If he wants rid or to kill the discussions for a year he could just say I have the necessary letters so we need a vote but I suspect he would be calling every MP and doublechecking if their intentions still hold (I did say remain but that seemed rather inappropriate)..
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It features very prominently in the minds of people who might want to live and work in Europe. If my maths is right, France, Germany and Spain combined comes to around 560,000. That looks like a pretty large number to me. Then there are 23 other European countries to factor in, which would probably take us to at least the Canadian figure.

    Spain and France are more likely retirees than workers.

    Without doubt. And in the future both will revert to being what they were previously: countries in which rich Brits could settle down and live out their twilight years, but which average punters could only visit. Unless, of course, they also have Irish passports ;-)

    Well if France and Spain want to give up the FDI that's their business.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It features very prominently in the minds of people who might want to live and work in Europe. If my maths is right, France, Germany and Spain combined comes to around 560,000. That looks like a pretty large number to me. Then there are 23 other European countries to factor in, which would probably take us to at least the Canadian figure.

    Spain and France are more likely retirees than workers.

    Without doubt. And in the future both will revert to being what they were previously: countries in which rich Brits could settle down and live out their twilight years, but which average punters could only visit. Unless, of course, they also have Irish passports ;-)

    thats sort of the state of play today though. Only well off brits can buy a second house or afford to move out there. Eveybody else just visits for a holiday.

    Cant your wife get a paddy passport ?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
    Just calling out the hypocrites.

    If Archer is so keen for a Hard Brexit/Corbyn government then he should move to the UK.

    Otherwise he’s as yellow as the Australian rugby/cricket shirt.
    your e spending too much time on Brexit bollocks, its clouding your judgement

    I recommend a week off PB to go shoe shopping
    I wish I could.

    I’m spending the week in Germany thanks to Brexit.
    anywhere nice ?

    avoid Frankfurt :-)
    Mostly München, Berlin, Bonn, and with a dash of Frankfurt.
    too much travel not enough tourism

    Bonn's even more boring than Frankfurt. Do a runner and spend the day at Burg Eltz then visit a vineyard on the Rhine or Mosel

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eltz_Castle

    Am going to be in München during Oktoberfest.

    I should fit right in.
    nah its overrated.

    unless youre planning to mount a putsch from a beerhall and declare yourself dictator theres not much going for it
    Don't give him ideas....
  • Options

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
    Just calling out the hypocrites.

    If Archer is so keen for a Hard Brexit/Corbyn government then he should move to the UK.

    Otherwise he’s as yellow as the Australian rugby/cricket shirt.
    your e spending too much time on Brexit bollocks, its clouding your judgement

    I recommend a week off PB to go shoe shopping
    I wish I could.

    I’m spending the week in Germany thanks to Brexit.
    anywhere nice ?

    avoid Frankfurt :-)
    Mostly München, Berlin, Bonn, and with a dash of Frankfurt.
    too much travel not enough tourism

    Bonn's even more boring than Frankfurt. Do a runner and spend the day at Burg Eltz then visit a vineyard on the Rhine or Mosel

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eltz_Castle

    Am going to be in München during Oktoberfest.

    I should fit right in.
    The problem I found with drinking beer from those huge steins is that unless you drink it really quickly, it gets warm. Give me a smaller glass so that I can drink at a more sedate pace.
  • Options

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It features very prominently in the minds of people who might want to live and work in Europe. If my maths is right, France, Germany and Spain combined comes to around 560,000. That looks like a pretty large number to me. Then there are 23 other European countries to factor in, which would probably take us to at least the Canadian figure.

    Spain and France are more likely retirees than workers.

    Without doubt. And in the future both will revert to being what they were previously: countries in which rich Brits could settle down and live out their twilight years, but which average punters could only visit. Unless, of course, they also have Irish passports ;-)

    Which will, of course, add to the pressure on the NHS.
  • Options
    eek said:

    Just a wild thought. Is it possible for the No Confidence vote to be triggered by accident, say by one MP sending in a letter when one hasn't got around to removing one?
    Would the chairman of the 1922 committee check with all the letter senders that they still mean it? Is it common knowledge amongst Tory MPs as to the number submitted or does nobody know?

    I suspect your answer depends on the mood of the chair of the 1922 committee. If he wants rid or to kill the discussions for a year he could just say I have the necessary letters so we need a vote but I suspect he would be calling every MP and doublechecking if their intentions still hold (I did say remain but that seemed rather inappropriate)..
    Is it really likely just 1 letter would tip the balance? I've always assumed that if there were to be a putsch it would be more organised than that. Dozens of letters going in on the same day.
  • Options

    tlg86 said:

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It features very prominently in the minds of people who might want to live and work (but mostly retire) in Europe. If my maths is right, France, Germany and Spain combined comes to around 560,000. That looks like a pretty large number to me. Then there are 23 other European countries to factor in, which would probably take us to at least the Canadian figure.

    Fixed that for you.

    The rules will apply to retirees, too. They are not exempt. They also "live" in the countries they choose to retire to.

    So be it. More than twice as many manage to get into Australia. I'm sure they can manage.
  • Options
    FeersumEnjineeyaFeersumEnjineeya Posts: 3,896
    edited September 2018

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
    Just calling out the hypocrites.

    If Archer is so keen for a Hard Brexit/Corbyn government then he should move to the UK.

    Otherwise he’s as yellow as the Australian rugby/cricket shirt.
    your e spending too much time on Brexit bollocks, its clouding your judgement

    I recommend a week off PB to go shoe shopping
    I wish I could.

    I’m spending the week in Germany thanks to Brexit.
    anywhere nice ?

    avoid Frankfurt :-)
    Mostly München, Berlin, Bonn, and with a dash of Frankfurt.
    too much travel not enough tourism

    Bonn's even more boring than Frankfurt. Do a runner and spend the day at Burg Eltz then visit a vineyard on the Rhine or Mosel

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eltz_Castle

    Am going to be in München during Oktoberfest.

    I should fit right in.
    The problem I found with drinking beer from those huge steins is that unless you drink it really quickly, it gets warm. Give me a smaller glass so that I can drink at a more sedate pace.
    You should go to Cologne, then, where they traditionally drink their beer from tiny 200ml glasses. Also, I'm pretty sure the word "Stein" meaning a large beer glass doesn't actually exist in Germany. At least, I've never heard it used there.
  • Options

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It would be interesting to see the top ten for current emigrants rather than the cumulative historical top ten. It may or may not look quite different.
    Of EU citizens who migrate, the UK has the lowest percentage who go to the EU.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/livingabroad/april2018#do-british-citizens-migrate-to-the-eu-more-or-less-than-other-eu-countries-citizens
    UN Migrant stock data for 2017 shows that 26% of migrants who were born in the UK and living abroad were living in another EU country (6% of which lived in Ireland). The UK had a smaller proportion of emigrants living in another EU country than any other EU country. By comparison, 44% of those born in Germany emigrate to another EU country, and 49% of those born in France.

    So 20% of UK emigrants might be affected by this - and ±75% are already used to work permits / visa restrictions when they do emigrate. A bigger issue in the minds of the Tuscan second home owning commentariat than in ordinary voters, I suspect.

    If they own a second home in Tuscany, they will be fine - they have the money. So the likes of Lord Lawson will be able to continue to live in their French chateaux while insisting that they cannot be joined by the riff-raff. Phew. No, it will be ordinary people who have saved for years in the hope of retiring to the sun who will be affected.
  • Options

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
    Just calling out the hypocrites.

    If Archer is so keen for a Hard Brexit/Corbyn government then he should move to the UK.

    Otherwise he’s as yellow as the Australian rugby/cricket shirt.
    your e spending too much time on Brexit bollocks, its clouding your judgement

    I recommend a week off PB to go shoe shopping
    I wish I could.

    I’m spending the week in Germany thanks to Brexit.
    anywhere nice ?

    avoid Frankfurt :-)
    Mostly München, Berlin, Bonn, and with a dash of Frankfurt.
    too much travel not enough tourism

    Bonn's even more boring than Frankfurt. Do a runner and spend the day at Burg Eltz then visit a vineyard on the Rhine or Mosel

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eltz_Castle

    Am going to be in München during Oktoberfest.

    I should fit right in.
    The problem I found with drinking beer from those huge steins is that unless you drink it really quickly, it gets warm. Give me a smaller glass so that I can drink at a more sedate pace.
    You should go to Cologne, then, where they traditionally drink their beer from tiny 200ml glasses. Also, I'm pretty sure the word "Stein" meaning a large beer glass doesn't actually exist in German. At least, I've never heard it used there.
    Ok, I got the name wrong, whatever those large glasses are called.
    A bog standard pint glass suits me fine.
  • Options

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It would be interesting to see the top ten for current emigrants rather than the cumulative historical top ten. It may or may not look quite different.
    Of EU citizens who migrate, the UK has the lowest percentage who go to the EU.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/livingabroad/april2018#do-british-citizens-migrate-to-the-eu-more-or-less-than-other-eu-countries-citizens
    UN Migrant stock data for 2017 shows that 26% of migrants who were born in the UK and living abroad were living in another EU country (6% of which lived in Ireland). The UK had a smaller proportion of emigrants living in another EU country than any other EU country. By comparison, 44% of those born in Germany emigrate to another EU country, and 49% of those born in France.

    So 20% of UK emigrants might be affected by this - and ±75% are already used to work permits / visa restrictions when they do emigrate. A bigger issue in the minds of the Tuscan second home owning commentariat than in ordinary voters, I suspect.

    If they own a second home in Tuscany, they will be fine - they have the money. So the likes of Lord Lawson will be able to continue to live in their French chateaux while insisting that they cannot be joined by the riff-raff. Phew. No, it will be ordinary people who have saved for years in the hope of retiring to the sun who will be affected.
    Why would you have to save for years to retire to Spain?
  • Options

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
    Just calling out the hypocrites.

    If Archer is so keen for a Hard Brexit/Corbyn government then he should move to the UK.

    Otherwise he’s as yellow as the Australian rugby/cricket shirt.
    your e spending too much time on Brexit bollocks, its clouding your judgement

    I recommend a week off PB to go shoe shopping
    I wish I could.

    I’m spending the week in Germany thanks to Brexit.
    anywhere nice ?

    avoid Frankfurt :-)
    Mostly München, Berlin, Bonn, and with a dash of Frankfurt.
    too much travel not enough tourism

    Bonn's even more boring than Frankfurt. Do a runner and spend the day at Burg Eltz then visit a vineyard on the Rhine or Mosel

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eltz_Castle

    Am going to be in München during Oktoberfest.

    I should fit right in.
    The problem I found with drinking beer from those huge steins is that unless you drink it really quickly, it gets warm. Give me a smaller glass so that I can drink at a more sedate pace.
    If they serve Pepsi in those glasses I’m going to die.

    I’m going to be like a nun in a whorehouse there.
  • Options

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It features very prominently in the minds of people who might want to live and work in Europe. If my maths is right, France, Germany and Spain combined comes to around 560,000. That looks like a pretty large number to me. Then there are 23 other European countries to factor in, which would probably take us to at least the Canadian figure.

    Spain and France are more likely retirees than workers.

    Without doubt. And in the future both will revert to being what they were previously: countries in which rich Brits could settle down and live out their twilight years, but which average punters could only visit. Unless, of course, they also have Irish passports ;-)

    thats sort of the state of play today though. Only well off brits can buy a second house or afford to move out there. Eveybody else just visits for a holiday.

    Cant your wife get a paddy passport ?

    I am a wealthy Brit. I am going to be fine. In any case, I am aiming for somewhere by the sea here when I finally stop funding the next generation and helping to look after my mother-in-law, who shows every sign of living to 100!

    My guess is that the average retiree in Spain does not own a second home there. Instead, they will have sold their home in the UK to raise the funds to buy a place on the Costa.



  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It would be interesting to see the top ten for current emigrants rather than the cumulative historical top ten. It may or may not look quite different.
    Of EU citizens who migrate, the UK has the lowest percentage who go to the EU.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/livingabroad/april2018#do-british-citizens-migrate-to-the-eu-more-or-less-than-other-eu-countries-citizens
    UN Migrant stock data for 2017 shows that 26% of migrants who were born in the UK and living abroad were living in another EU country (6% of which lived in Ireland). The UK had a smaller proportion of emigrants living in another EU country than any other EU country. By comparison, 44% of those born in Germany emigrate to another EU country, and 49% of those born in France.

    So 20% of UK emigrants might be affected by this - and ±75% are already used to work permits / visa restrictions when they do emigrate. A bigger issue in the minds of the Tuscan second home owning commentariat than in ordinary voters, I suspect.

    If they own a second home in Tuscany, they will be fine - they have the money. So the likes of Lord Lawson will be able to continue to live in their French chateaux while insisting that they cannot be joined by the riff-raff. Phew. No, it will be ordinary people who have saved for years in the hope of retiring to the sun who will be affected.
    Brits are far more likely to dream of a life in Sydney or N York than Milan or Vienna.

    Yes, the second home owners of Tuscany will be fine anyway, as you say, but from these stats how many ordinary electricians and plasterers or estate agents for that matter are actually availing themselves of the right to work in the EU? Not that many it appears.

    Look at TSE's rather telling groan down thread that he's spending a week in Germany. His words don't seem to me to be leaping off the page with joy and anticipation.

    The EU just ain't sexy.


  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,754

    On topic never misunderestimate the idiocy of some Tory Eurosceptics/Leavers.

    I suspect Corbyn favours a harder Brexit than May and the ERG will ally with him.

    Fine, it doesn't matter how we get hard Brexit. After all, we can change the Government later but we won't be able to change the agreement with the EU (sorry Gove, but you are talking rubbish).
    Spoken like a true patriot albeit a traitorous patriot who won’t have to live with the consequences of a Corbyn government, nor Brexit in fact.

    If you want your kind of Brexit come to the UK otherwise shut up.
    oooh tetchy Mr Eagles
    Just calling out the hypocrites.

    If Archer is so keen for a Hard Brexit/Corbyn government then he should move to the UK.

    Otherwise he’s as yellow as the Australian rugby/cricket shirt.
    your e spending too much time on Brexit bollocks, its clouding your judgement

    I recommend a week off PB to go shoe shopping
    I wish I could.

    I’m spending the week in Germany thanks to Brexit.
    anywhere nice ?

    avoid Frankfurt :-)
    Mostly München, Berlin, Bonn, and with a dash of Frankfurt.
    too much travel not enough tourism

    Bonn's even more boring than Frankfurt. Do a runner and spend the day at Burg Eltz then visit a vineyard on the Rhine or Mosel

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eltz_Castle

    Am going to be in München during Oktoberfest.

    I should fit right in.
    The problem I found with drinking beer from those huge steins is that unless you drink it really quickly, it gets warm. Give me a smaller glass so that I can drink at a more sedate pace.
    If they serve Pepsi in those glasses I’m going to die.

    I’m going to be like a nun in a whorehouse there.
    Is this one of those cosutmes you wear at the Oktoberfest ?
  • Options
    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    Scott_P said:

    Really does sound like they're very close now.

    Wouldn't have believed that at the start of the year.
  • Options

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It would be interesting to see the top ten for current emigrants rather than the cumulative historical top ten. It may or may not look quite different.
    Of EU citizens who migrate, the UK has the lowest percentage who go to the EU.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/livingabroad/april2018#do-british-citizens-migrate-to-the-eu-more-or-less-than-other-eu-countries-citizens
    UN Migrant stock data for 2017 shows that 26% of migrants who were born in the UK and living abroad were living in another EU country (6% of which lived in Ireland). The UK had a smaller proportion of emigrants living in another EU country than any other EU country. By comparison, 44% of those born in Germany emigrate to another EU country, and 49% of those born in France.

    So 20% of UK emigrants might be affected by this - and ±75% are already used to work permits / visa restrictions when they do emigrate. A bigger issue in the minds of the Tuscan second home owning commentariat than in ordinary voters, I suspect.

    If they own a second home in Tuscany, they will be fine - they have the money. So the likes of Lord Lawson will be able to continue to live in their French chateaux while insisting that they cannot be joined by the riff-raff. Phew. No, it will be ordinary people who have saved for years in the hope of retiring to the sun who will be affected.
    Why would you have to save for years to retire to Spain?

    To buy somewhere to live, perhaps? Look, if you want to pretend that a lot of very ordinary people do not dream of retiring to the south of Europe, then so be it.

  • Options
    Andrew said:

    Scott_P said:

    Really does sound like they're very close now.

    Wouldn't have believed that at the start of the year.
    I would presume that the timing of the November meeting is driven by the Article 50 deadline rather than by any sense of negotiations nearing completion.
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    welshowl said:

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:


    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    .
    Of EU citizens who migrate, the UK has the lowest percentage who go to the EU.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/livingabroad/april2018#do-british-citizens-migrate-to-the-eu-more-or-less-than-other-eu-countries-citizens
    UN Migrant stock data for 2017 shows that 26% of migrants who were born in the UK and living abroad were living in another EU country (6% of which lived in Ireland). The UK had a smaller proportion of emigrants living in another EU country than any other EU country. By comparison, 44% of those born in Germany emigrate to another EU country, and 49% of those born in France.


    If they own a second home in Tuscany, they will be fine - they have the money. So the likes of Lord Lawson will be able to continue to live in their French chateaux while insisting that they cannot be joined by the riff-raff. Phew. No, it will be ordinary people who have saved for years in the hope of retiring to the sun who will be affected.
    Brits are far more likely to dream of a life in Sydney or N York than Milan or Vienna.

    Yes, the second home owners of Tuscany will be fine anyway, as you say, but from these stats how many ordinary electricians and plasterers or estate agents for that matter are actually availing themselves of the right to work in the EU? Not that many it appears.

    Look at TSE's rather telling groan down thread that he's spending a week in Germany. His words don't seem to me to be leaping off the page with joy and anticipation.

    The EU just ain't sexy.


    Exactly. Given that EU manual workers come to the UK in the expectation of better wages, why would it make sense for unskilled UK labour to travel in the other direction? It doesn't, which is why it doesn't happen. I would imagine the profile of a British worker in the EU was quite different to that of the average EU migrant to the UK.

    The argument that the nasty oldies voted to stop the youngsters enjoying the wonders of working in the EU has been shot to pieces, so now the sympathy extends to older people who cant retire there! But they are the people who generally voted Leave, so they obviously aren't that bothered
  • Options
    welshowl said:

    Most popular destinations for UK expatriates:

    Australia: 1,277,474
    USA: 758,919
    Canada: 674,371
    Spain: 381,025
    New Zealand: 313,850
    South Africa: 305,660
    Ireland: 253,605
    France: 172,806
    Germany: 96,938
    Channel Islands: 73,030

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/british-expats-most-population-destinations-2015-9

    So, of the top 10 expat destinations, 6 already require paperwork, one will be unaffected by any immigration change and three will be affected.

    This 'people who want to go and work in Europe' figures more highly in some minds than it does in the minds of expats.

    It would be interesting to see the top ten for current emigrants rather than the cumulative historical top ten. It may or may not look quite different.
    Of EU citizens who migrate, the UK has the lowest percentage who go to the EU.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/articles/livingabroad/april2018#do-british-citizens-migrate-to-the-eu-more-or-less-than-other-eu-countries-citizens
    UN Migrant stock data for 2017 s, and 49% of those born in France.

    So 20% of UK emigrants might be affected by this - and ±75% are already used to work permits / visa restrictions when they do emigrate. A bigger issue in the minds of the Tuscan second home owning commentariat than in ordinary voters, I suspect.

    If they own a second home in Tuscany, they will be fine - they have the money. So the likes of Lord Lawson will be able to continue to live in their French chateaux while insisting that they cannot be joined by the riff-raff. Phew. No, it will be ordinary people who have saved for years in the hope of retiring to the sun who will be affected.
    Brits are far more likely to dream of a life in Sydney or N York than Milan or Vienna.

    Yes, the second home owners of Tuscany will be fine anyway, as you say, but from these stats how many ordinary electricians and plasterers or estate agents for that matter are actually availing themselves of the right to work in the EU? Not that many it appears.

    Look at TSE's rather telling groan down thread that he's spending a week in Germany. His words don't seem to me to be leaping off the page with joy and anticipation.

    The EU just ain't sexy.

    There is no need to emigrate to Europe to work in Europe, you can jump on an Easyjet or Ryanair flight, do your job and then come home again. The issue with this kind of short-term contracting is much more about a trade deal that includes (or doesn't include) services, than around work permits.

This discussion has been closed.