Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Salzburg: Betting across a range of relevant political markets

245

Comments

  • We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    As you are a national barometer of fair play, I think that is a profound shift in the nation's mood Mr _G.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    edited September 2018

    Jonathan said:

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    What has gender got to do with it? This is a failure of British diplomacy or a tin ear at no10, probably both.
    The pictures show a pack of men humiliating a lone woman and getting pleasure in it. The picture showing on Sky news is a dreadful look for the EU
    It is just the framing of the still shot photo. Following that photo, the group walked back to the security gate with May chatting to Macron on the way. She stopped at the door while the others walked through the security gate. It was all on the video clip on the news.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Jonathan said:

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
    It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
    The blame game. Brilliant. Well done. Is that the depths we’ve got to.
    What are you talking about 'depths'? Since when has politics at national or european level not involved a blame game?
  • kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    She misread the mood of them with her article and approach.

    A PM at the top of her game would have had her Foreign Secretary there with her.

    Was Raab there today?
    Raab is Brexit Sec.

    Hunt is Foreign Sec.
    I know, but we know Hunt is in Myanmar today.

    I don't know where Raab was today.
    Why was Hunt in Burma as opposed to Salzburg??
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well No Deal bequeathes Jeremy Corbyn as PM.

    Rejoice.

    If it does it would only be a Corbyn propped up by the LDs and SNP and bulldozed over by Brussels as he crawls back to the negotiating table and has to accept whatever they dictate to him while his economic policies wreck even more havoc on the economy and with Leader of the Opposition Boris Johnson sitting on a 15 point Tory lead within a year
    Why would Corbyn feel the need to negotiate with Brussels? He could simply take over in the wake of a No Deal Brexit and carry on with his domestic policies. Why would he want to be tied to any rules imposed by the EU?
    Great, if Corbyn wants full hard Brexit and implementing his tax and spend policies too we can probably add 5 points to the Boris lead I mentioned earlier to give a 20 point Tory lead within a year as we head for near bankruptcy and sky high inflation and a recession
    Taking pleasure in the prospect of lots of people - pensioners, the young, businesses, the poor etc - suffering just so that you can relish an opinion poll lead is why I currently despise the Tory party.

    God knows I loathe Corbyn and co who I think will do great harm to this country if ever put in power. But the Tories don't deserve it either. If only they could both lose.

    I feel much the same way about the Brexit negotiations. Both sides are behaving stupidly; both should lose. Sadly, it's the rest of us who will be the losers.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
    It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
    The blame game. Brilliant. Well done. Is that the depths we’ve got to.
    What are you talking about 'depths'? Since when has politics at national or european level not involved a blame game?
    There was me thinking that there was more to it. Naive fool. Half the UK will blame the EU, those left will blame the first half and the govt in particular. Brilliant
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    Has anyone considered the merits of a referendum in Northern Ireland, to allow the people to choose which side of the customs border they would like to be on?

    It seems inevitable now that there will either be customs border down the Irish Sea, or between Ulster and the Republic, so why not put it to a vote?

    There was a referendum in Ireland which forms the basis of the constitutional settlement there and it has broadly brought peace to what was a troubled part of these islands.
    Northern Ireland is going to end up being a massive drain on government resources, particularly in terms of the army and security services. It is a set of problems that were entirely foreseeable and avoidable.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    First thing should be to withdraw from NATO and spend the money on the NHS.

    If we withdraw Donald will be out quick as a flash...
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?

    Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?

    And TSE calls Leavers appeasers!!
    No, I said they'll be spoken in the same contemptuous way as the appeasers of the 1930s, who also wrought a humiliation on the country.
    Appeasers wanted a deal with the Nazis and to hand over control of the UK to Berlin, while I would not go as far as to compare the EU to Nazis (despite the heritage of Selmayr) diehard Remainers want to hand over democratic control within the UK to Brussels
    TSE = Lord Halifax?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    edited September 2018

    We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    Incroyable!

    Allongez-vous.

  • malcolmg said:

    Has anyone considered the merits of a referendum in Northern Ireland, to allow the people to choose which side of the customs border they would like to be on?

    It seems inevitable now that there will either be customs border down the Irish Sea, or between Ulster and the Republic, so why not put it to a vote?

    WE need one for Scotland for sure
    So the Scot Nats logic seems to be "Brexit is an absolute clusterf*ck of epic proportions....Lets repeat that process within the United Kingdom"?!
  • We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    I need to lie down.

    Has the Telegraph turned on Brexit?
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?

    Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?

    And TSE calls Leavers appeasers!!
    No, I said they'll be spoken in the same contemptuous way as the appeasers of the 1930s, who also wrought a humiliation on the country.
    Appeasers wanted a deal with the Nazis and to hand over control of the UK to Berlin, while I would not go as far as to compare the EU to Nazis (despite the heritage of Selmayr) diehard Remainers want to hand over democratic control within the UK to Brussels
    Thatcher signed up for it, greatest appeaser of them all? Don't think so somehow..
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited September 2018
    OchEye said:

    kle4 said:

    OchEye said:

    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    Selmayr spin, IIRC.

    Europe are not negotiating in good faith. No deal it is, then...
    The EU do not have to negotiate in anyone's good faith, we were the idiots who wanted out...
    It's in their interests to strike a deal too, they have been clear on that. If it weren't, they wouldn't negotiate at all, in good or bad faith. It isn't a favour to us to negotiate something. No they don't need to cross what they think is a red line to get a deal, but both sides will clearly be game playing (because it is a negotiation after all), and if they play it badly that isn't good for them either in the end.
    The EU works on a series of rules and laws which the UK is trying to circumvent. 28, soon to be 27, do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member, they all have enough problems of their own to deal with, that is why they instruct the EU Commission to deal with it under their instructions.
    This, once again, is one of those supposedly pro-EU arguments that make the EU look like idiots - they don't care about one of the largest countries in Europe on their doorstep? I give them more credit than that.

    You've also totally missed my point which was not that the EU should do us favours, clearly they won't, but that a deal happening is not doing us a favour. Clearly they do not want nor should they want a deal at any cost, but you are quite right they have plenty of other problems to deal with - a hostile ex member with a chaotic no deal relationship is a problem they might like to avoid, and possibly even compromise on some other things to get.

    And personally I think the EU are smart enough to want to avoid such a problem. They might not be able to avoid that problem, due to their politics and our own of course, but the idea they 'do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member' makes them look very bad indeed. You should respect them more than that.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited September 2018

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    As you are a national barometer of fair play, I think that is a profound shift in the nation's mood Mr _G.
    Fair play is the very essence of the British character and it seems the EU ambushed TM today almost certainly aided and abetted by the peoples vote group who seem to have captured the EU when even they suggested we should have a second referendum

    I would be very surprised if a lot of voters are not very annoyed with the EU tonight
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    kle4 said:

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
    It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
    Though I think Mr Stodge was being atypically simplistic and harsh on May earlier I think he was right that the public, or a significant portion of it, would always be inclined to blame the EU for no deal, and that the government will do all it can to maximise that feeling. It will need to, if it is to get through the next few months.
    Lets be honest - they never wanted a deal.

    If we get away to easy others will follow.

    As several have said - fuck em
  • FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
    It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
    I agree with what you are saying. Except there’s lots of remainers and leavers who don’t like May. Tonight there will be Tories viewing the same thing as you yet wetting themselves in the same way as Alistair Campbell.

    And, more ominously, the EU have been preparing for the no deal++ blame game a lot longer than May, even tonight I don’t think the penny had dropped for everyone in Government, EU not negotiating properly until after at least EUref2 or UK GE as well.
  • We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    I need to lie down.

    Has the Telegraph turned on Brexit?
    Maybe, need to see the Mail front page.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960

    We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    No, what you need to do is get a grip, then take some responsibility for 40 years of an Establishment running away from democracy - because you feared it would have led to this point. Rejection. All the while we have been getting further enmeshed in a European superstate which we as a nation were never going to buy.

    You have not carried the people, and have hid the true intentions via a programme of deceit, subterfuge and basic lies.

    Man up, take the blame.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    malcolmg said:

    Has anyone considered the merits of a referendum in Northern Ireland, to allow the people to choose which side of the customs border they would like to be on?

    It seems inevitable now that there will either be customs border down the Irish Sea, or between Ulster and the Republic, so why not put it to a vote?

    WE need one for Scotland for sure
    So the Scot Nats logic seems to be "Brexit is an absolute clusterf*ck of epic proportions....Lets repeat that process within the United Kingdom"?!
    Nah, that separation would be sure to be simple and not at all bitter.

    Sarcasm aside, as horrendous as it would be, if that is what they choose I hope they are prepared for it and willing to accept that as the price rather than being surprised.
  • FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    As you are a national barometer of fair play, I think that is a profound shift in the nation's mood Mr _G.
    Fair play is the very essence of the British character and it seems the EU ambushed TM today almost certainly aided and abetted by the peoples vote group who seem to have captured the EU when even they suggested we should have a second referendum

    I would be very surprised if a lot of voters are not very annoyed with the EU tonight
    All they need now is for Obama to fly over and tell us to get to the back of the queue.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited September 2018
    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
    It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
    The blame game. Brilliant. Well done. Is that the depths we’ve got to.
    What are you talking about 'depths'? Since when has politics at national or european level not involved a blame game?
    There was me thinking that there was more to it. Naive fool. Half the UK will blame the EU, those left will blame the first half and the govt in particular. Brilliant
    I didn't say it was brilliant, I just don't see how the blame game is a new innovation related to Brexit, however sad that is.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    Has anyone considered the merits of a referendum in Northern Ireland, to allow the people to choose which side of the customs border they would like to be on?

    It seems inevitable now that there will either be customs border down the Irish Sea, or between Ulster and the Republic, so why not put it to a vote?

    There was a referendum in Ireland which forms the basis of the constitutional settlement there and it has broadly brought peace to what was a troubled part of these islands.
    But that settlement is based on both the UK and Ireland being members of the single market and customs union. This is about to be smashed to smithereens.

    I think there would be a strong majority in NI for staying in both of these arrangements, while also remaining part of the United Kingdom. In effect the EU backstop really does allow Ulster to 'have it's cake and eat it', just not the rest of the UK. If this passes by a referendum, the decision carries democratic weight.
    Yes but the DUP would veto such a referendum in a hot second.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697

    The words of an effeminate French midget are likely to have "back of the queue" type repercussions among the electorate.

    Indeed! That's why the Tele is splashing it all over their front page. :D
  • We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    I need to lie down.

    Has the Telegraph turned on Brexit?
    Maybe, need to see the Mail front page.
    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042885864450392065
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    kle4 said:

    OchEye said:

    kle4 said:

    OchEye said:

    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    Selmayr spin, IIRC.

    Europe are not negotiating in good faith. No deal it is, then...
    The EU do not have to negotiate in anyone's good faith, we were the idiots who wanted out...
    It's in their interests to strike a deal too, they have been clear on that. If it weren't, they wouldn't negotiate at all, in good or bad faith. It isn't a favour to us to negotiate something. No they don't need to cross what they think is a red line to get a deal, but both sides will clearly be game playing (because it is a negotiation after all), and if they play it badly that isn't good for them either in the end.
    The EU works on a series of rules and laws which the UK is trying to circumvent. 28, soon to be 27, do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member, they all have enough problems of their own to deal with, that is why they instruct the EU Commission to deal with it under their instructions.
    This, once again, is one of those supposedly pro-EU arguments that make the EU look like idiots - they don't care about one of the largest countries in Europe on their doorstep? I give them more credit than that.

    You've also totally missed my point which was not that the EU should do us favours, clearly they won't, but that a deal happening is not doing us a favour. Clearly they do not want nor should they want a deal at any cost, but you are quite right they have plenty of other problems to deal with - a hostile ex member with a chaotic no deal relationship is a problem they might like to avoid, and possibly even compromise on some other things to get.

    And personally I think the EU are smart enough to want to avoid such a problem. They might not be able to avoid that problem, due to their politics and our own of course, but the idea they 'do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member' makes them look very bad indeed. You should respect them more than that.
    Quite. They are thinking tactically over 0-3 years not strategically about 10-20.

    Just a thought, as a pebble in the pond, say we pulled out of NATO on the grounds so many of our “allies”, actually aren’t. Might concentrate some minds in the Baltics.
  • We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    My wife has just seen that headline and said

    'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'

    And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,960

    We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    I need to lie down.

    Has the Telegraph turned on Brexit?
    No, it is just raising the blood pressure meds of its readership....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712


    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?

    Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?

    And TSE calls Leavers appeasers!!
    No, I said they'll be spoken in the same contemptuous way as the appeasers of the 1930s, who also wrought a humiliation on the country.
    Appeasers wanted a deal with the Nazis and to hand over control of the UK to Berlin, while I would not go as far as to compare the EU to Nazis (despite the heritage of Selmayr) diehard Remainers want to hand over democratic control within the UK to Brussels
    TSE = Lord Halifax?
    I couldn't possibly comment!
  • We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    I need to lie down.

    Has the Telegraph turned on Brexit?
    Maybe, need to see the Mail front page.
    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042885864450392065
    cheers
  • FrankBoothFrankBooth Posts: 9,005
    It amazes me that May is stll Prime minister having said we were going to leave the Customs Union and Single Market and then told us Chequers was a great deal.

    I don't think our negotiating tactics have made a huge difference although if we had seemed better prepared for no deal we might have actually had some leverage. Everyone who actually knew the EU always thought it unlikely we could get a good deal in 2 years and so it has proved. So many Brexiters seemed to have little understanding of the EU but thought they could second guess them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    Hardly surprising, if there was a UK En Marche you would be at the front of the queue with Osborne and Clegg to sign up
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?

    Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?

    And TSE calls Leavers appeasers!!
    No, I said they'll be spoken in the same contemptuous way as the appeasers of the 1930s, who also wrought a humiliation on the country.
    Appeasers wanted a deal with the Nazis and to hand over control of the UK to Berlin, while I would not go as far as to compare the EU to Nazis (despite the heritage of Selmayr) diehard Remainers want to hand over democratic control within the UK to Brussels
    Err, No!

    The Appeasement policy of the Tory government in the 1930's was an attempt to placate what were legitimate objections to the Versailies Treaty of 1919. To hand over the Rhineland and Sudetenland, but most certainly not the UK. It was similtaneously accompanied by rearmament.

    Not sure that it is a helpful analogy for either side, but your summary is very poor history.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    kle4 said:

    Jonathan said:

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
    It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
    The blame game. Brilliant. Well done. Is that the depths we’ve got to.
    What are you talking about 'depths'? Since when has politics at national or european level not involved a blame game?
    There was me thinking that there was more to it. Naive fool. Half the UK will blame the EU, those left will blame the first half and the govt in particular. Brilliant
    I didn't say it was brilliant, I just don't see how the blame game is a new innovation related to Brexit, however sad that is.
    What’s new is that all we have left, to play to pin the blame. Raise the Union Jack. Land of hope and glory.
  • We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    My wife has just seen that headline and said

    'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'

    And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
    It shouldn't really come as any surprise given Macron's lecturing of that kid who called him by his nickname and the unemployed farmer.
  • F*ck the EU. F*ck them all.

    No deal it is. I don’t care about the “consequence” or if it leads to Corbyn or eventually to us rejoining, that will at least be our choice.

    No-one deserves that sort of treatment and public humiliation.

    I did try to warn you this process would be a completely unnecessary humiliation...
    Which one are you? Donald Tusk or Martin Selmayr?
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,211
    Let’s see what transpires in November or December. I think Drs Palmer and Nabavi have called this correctly. Alarums, tantrums, walk-outs, ultimatums over the next 8 weeks....leading to, well, who knows what?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited September 2018
    The Sun is definitely in Mrs May's corner (and I bet the next time she meets Macron she'll be in heels..):

    https://twitter.com/TheSun/status/1042886709946601472
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    The words of an effeminate French midget are likely to have "back of the queue" type repercussions among the electorate.

    Hey now, Macron is 173cm apparently, that's not short. Says someone at 170cm.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    HYUFD said:

    We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    Hardly surprising, if there was a UK En Marche you would be at the front of the queue with Osborne and Clegg to sign up

    Remember when TSE pretended to be a eurosceptic? :D

  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?

    Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?

    And TSE calls Leavers appeasers!!
    No, I said they'll be spoken in the same contemptuous way as the appeasers of the 1930s, who also wrought a humiliation on the country.
    Appeasers wanted a deal with the Nazis and to hand over control of the UK to Berlin, while I would not go as far as to compare the EU to Nazis (despite the heritage of Selmayr) diehard Remainers want to hand over democratic control within the UK to Brussels
    TSE = Lord Halifax?
    Sunil the half naked fakir or are you more Subhas Chandra Bose?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    JohnO said:

    Let’s see what transpires in November or December. I think Drs Palmer and Nabavi have called this correctly. Alarums, tantrums, walk-outs, ultimatums over the next 8 weeks....leading to, well, who knows what?

    So who will blink?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    No, what you need to do is get a grip, then take some responsibility for 40 years of an Establishment running away from democracy - because you feared it would have led to this point. Rejection. All the while we have been getting further enmeshed in a European superstate which we as a nation were never going to buy.

    You have not carried the people, and have hid the true intentions via a programme of deceit, subterfuge and basic lies.

    Man up, take the blame.
    +1000
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    Floater said:

    Lets be honest - they never wanted a deal.

    If we get away to easy others will follow.

    As several have said - fuck em

    I'd love to blame the EU for this, but honestly the Chequers plan does not make any sense. We are asking for something that we know (or we bloody well should have known) is very, very likely to be rejected.

    It's mystifying that May and co. have pursued this approach right to the wire.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Gavin Williamson doing his "I'm dead hard, me" act for a report in Ukraine on BBC News now.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited September 2018
    That is going to set some people off...if you can't ask to call off the dogs or talk about being whiter than whiter...calling the EU leaders dirty rats...I can see my twitter feed stuffed full off all the usual "the s#n" stuff.
  • OchEye said:

    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    Selmayr spin, IIRC.

    Europe are not negotiating in good faith. No deal it is, then...
    The EU do not have to negotiate in anyone's good faith, we were the idiots who wanted out...
    If the EU want to jeopardise their defence and financial stability continent-wide they’re going the right way about it.
  • JohnO said:

    Let’s see what transpires in November or December. I think Drs Palmer and Nabavi have called this correctly. Alarums, tantrums, walk-outs, ultimatums over the next 8 weeks....leading to, well, who knows what?

    That's what I have thought all along though tonight I'm less certain on that. Certainly the grounds are there for a "f##k them all we're off regardless" diamond-hard Brexit after tonight.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Cyclefree said:

    HYUFD said:

    Well No Deal bequeathes Jeremy Corbyn as PM.

    Rejoice.

    If it does it would only be a Corbyn propped up by the LDs and SNP and bulldozed over by Brussels as he crawls back to the negotiating table and has to accept whatever they dictate to him while his economic policies wreck even more havoc on the economy and with Leader of the Opposition Boris Johnson sitting on a 15 point Tory lead within a year
    Why would Corbyn feel the need to negotiate with Brussels? He could simply take over in the wake of a No Deal Brexit and carry on with his domestic policies. Why would he want to be tied to any rules imposed by the EU?
    Great, if Corbyn wants full hard Brexit and implementing his tax and spend policies too we can probably add 5 points to the Boris lead I mentioned earlier to give a 20 point Tory lead within a year as we head for near bankruptcy and sky high inflation and a recession
    Taking pleasure in the prospect of lots of people - pensioners, the young, businesses, the poor etc - suffering just so that you can relish an opinion poll lead is why I currently despise the Tory party.

    God knows I loathe Corbyn and co who I think will do great harm to this country if ever put in power. But the Tories don't deserve it either. If only they could both lose.

    I feel much the same way about the Brexit negotiations. Both sides are behaving stupidly; both should lose. Sadly, it's the rest of us who will be the losers.
    I do not particularly want hard Brexit or Corbyn as PM but if we are to get both we Tories at least can enjoy Corbyn and McDonnell trying to cope with it all and failing miserably
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    kle4 said:

    OchEye said:

    kle4 said:

    OchEye said:

    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    Selmayr spin, IIRC.

    Europe are not negotiating in good faith. No deal it is, then...
    The EU do not have to negotiate in anyone's good faith, we were the idiots who wanted out...
    It's in their interests to strike a deal too, they have been clear on that. If it weren't, they wouldn't negotiate at all, in good or bad faith. It isn't a favour to us to negotiate something. No they don't need to cross what they think is a red line to get a deal, but both sides will clearly be game playing (because it is a negotiation after all), and if they play it badly that isn't good for them either in the end.
    The EU works on a series of rules and laws which the UK is trying to circumvent. 28, soon to be 27, do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member, they all have enough problems of their own to deal with, that is why they instruct the EU Commission to deal with it under their instructions.
    This, once again, is one of those supposedly pro-EU arguments that make the EU look like idiots - they don't care about one of the largest countries in Europe on their doorstep? I give them more credit than that.

    You've also totally missed my point which was not that the EU should do us favours, clearly they won't, but that a deal happening is not doing us a favour. Clearly they do not want nor should they want a deal at any cost, but you are quite right they have plenty of other problems to deal with - a hostile ex member with a chaotic no deal relationship is a problem they might like to avoid, and possibly even compromise on some other things to get.

    And personally I think the EU are smart enough to want to avoid such a problem. They might not be able to avoid that problem, due to their politics and our own of course, but the idea they 'do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member' makes them look very bad indeed. You should respect them more than that.
    We are not a great country. We are regarded, worldwide, as a criminal country with London as the centre of the enterprise. Our bankers, financiers, hedge funds, even estate agents and builders are recognised as being worse than any mafia. Why do you think the 29th of March, 2019, is so significant? On the 30th, if we were still members of the EU, we would have to divulge ownership of bank accounts and financial transactions through the UK - how embarrassing would that be....
  • I would have thought Telegraph could have made Macron look worse than that. The way they edited and photoshopped it it’s almost like a statesman making a firmly made hometruth.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,211
    Jonathan said:

    JohnO said:

    Let’s see what transpires in November or December. I think Drs Palmer and Nabavi have called this correctly. Alarums, tantrums, walk-outs, ultimatums over the next 8 weeks....leading to, well, who knows what?

    So who will blink?
    Hopefully both with elegant synchronised elan.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Predictable stuff, but really what is the plan now? Does May try to cave in further? She knows she cannot get that through. Does she bluff and go back in 4 weeks with the same proposal? I don't think the EU are bluffing on this. Does she chuck Chequers and swiftly go with a harder proposal? How can she do that when she has rubbished anything but her own plan?

    Most likely she tries to adjust her plan in a way that she can say is not really adjusting it, and hope the EU buy that and it still passes the Commons, no mean feat. But how do the EU sell that given today?

    My gut says a referendum is on its way somehow, despite all the protestations and the fiendishly awkward path that requires.
  • nielh said:

    F*ck the EU. F*ck them all.

    No deal it is. I don’t care about the “consequence” or if it leads to Corbyn or eventually to us rejoining, that will at least be our choice.

    No-one deserves that sort of treatment and public humiliation.

    +1
    bluster.
    Nah, walk.

    Sure it’ll be very disruptive and no fun for a good few months but the UK is big, bad and ugly enough to do ok by itself.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    OchEye said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    I have been saying for weeks EU preparing ground for no deal++ spin war, their strategy is actively seeking a 2nd in out vote in Britain, aided and abetted by PeoplesVote traitors and quislings here in UK. Is there anyone left who doubts this now?

    Have we been too soft on the EUs PeoplesVote quislings?

    And TSE calls Leavers appeasers!!
    No, I said they'll be spoken in the same contemptuous way as the appeasers of the 1930s, who also wrought a humiliation on the country.
    Appeasers wanted a deal with the Nazis and to hand over control of the UK to Berlin, while I would not go as far as to compare the EU to Nazis (despite the heritage of Selmayr) diehard Remainers want to hand over democratic control within the UK to Brussels
    Thatcher signed up for it, greatest appeaser of them all? Don't think so somehow..
    Thatcher signed up for the Common Market and the Single Market as it was, not free movement from Eastern Europe added on too (exacerbated by Blair's failure to introduce transition controls) and the Euro and Lisbon and Nice and the moves towards ever closer Union
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited September 2018
    Floater said:

    Lets be honest - they never wanted a deal.

    If we get away to easy others will follow.

    As several have said - fuck em

    image
  • FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    Throwing your son’s financial well-being under a bus due to a misplaced sympathy with a mendacious and incompetent politician is never a good look.
  • Danny565 said:

    Gavin Williamson doing his "I'm dead hard, me" act for a report in Ukraine on BBC News now.

    The other day it dawned on me, in the near future both parties could be led by Gavin Williamson and Chris Williamson.

    And we thought no deal Brexit was bad.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    JohnO said:

    Let’s see what transpires in November or December. I think Drs Palmer and Nabavi have called this correctly. Alarums, tantrums, walk-outs, ultimatums over the next 8 weeks....leading to, well, who knows what?

    That's what I have thought all along though tonight I'm less certain on that. Certainly the grounds are there for a "f##k them all we're off regardless" diamond-hard Brexit after tonight.
    Yes I agree. We’ll probably still “get there”, but this game of chicken is high risk for a “ back of the queue” gaffe, and an Agincourt two fingered response, which either or both sides may stumble into because, let’s face it, they just don’t “get” each other.
  • Jonathan said:

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    I honestly am finding this point of view hard to understand. Would it really have been better for anyone if the EU had kept stringing May along with a false hope that Chequers would work, until they rejected it in November?
    It was the way they did it and to be honest I cannot see the public accepting anything other than the EU are to blame if we no deal
    The blame game. Brilliant. Well done. Is that the depths we’ve got to.
    Are you impressed by how the EU has handled this?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    edited September 2018

    We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    My wife has just seen that headline and said

    'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'

    And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
    Please tell Mrs G that we cannot 'have nothing to do with them' - geography dictates that we are part of Europe. Isolating ourselves will have dire economic consequences as you yourself have pointed out on numerous occasions.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    Hardly surprising, if there was a UK En Marche you would be at the front of the queue with Osborne and Clegg to sign up

    Remember when TSE pretended to be a eurosceptic? :D
    TSE is now almost as EUphile as William Glenn
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited September 2018
    glw said:

    Floater said:

    Lets be honest - they never wanted a deal.

    If we get away to easy others will follow.

    As several have said - fuck em

    I'd love to blame the EU for this, but honestly the Chequers plan does not make any sense. We are asking for something that we know (or we bloody well should have known) is very, very likely to be rejected.

    It's mystifying that May and co. have pursued this approach right to the wire.
    I keep saying it but David Davis told Theresa it was a bad idea.

    That said, the EU could've pulled the plug on Chequers rather more kindly than the abject humiliation the dolled out to Theresa May today...

    Not that I really care about Theresa being humiliated (hey this is the woman who was threatening to make her Cabinet walk down the Chequers drives and get taxi's home if they resigned on 6th July) but Theresa is basically representing the British people at these summits so when they humiliate her they humiliate the people and the country she is representing.

    And that's just not the done thing IMO.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    edited September 2018
    OchEye said:

    kle4 said:

    OchEye said:

    This, once again, is one of those supposedly pro-EU arguments that make the EU look like idiots - they don't care about one of the largest countries in Europe on their doorstep? I give them more credit than that.

    You've also totally missed my point which was not that the EU should do us favours, clearly they won't, but that a deal happening is not doing us a favour. Clearly they do not want nor should they want a deal at any cost, but you are quite right they have plenty of other problems to deal with - a hostile ex member with a chaotic no deal relationship is a problem they might like to avoid, and possibly even compromise on some other things to get.

    And personally I think the EU are smart enough to want to avoid such a problem. They might not be able to avoid that problem, due to their politics and our own of course, but the idea they 'do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member' makes them look very bad indeed. You should respect them more than that.
    We are not a great country. We are regarded, worldwide, as a criminal country with London as the centre of the enterprise. Our bankers, financiers, hedge funds, even estate agents and builders are recognised as being worse than any mafia. Why do you think the 29th of March, 2019, is so significant? On the 30th, if we were still members of the EU, we would have to divulge ownership of bank accounts and financial transactions through the UK - how embarrassing would that be....
    Were you attempting to reply to someone else, as I don't see the connection to what I said? I didn't say we were great (I happen to think we have our good points, but that was irrelevant). I said we are one of the biggest countries in Europe and we are on their doorstep. That is absolutely true even if we are, indeed, regarded worldwide as a criminal country. In fact if we are regarded so that makes my point even more true - they absolutely should give a monkey's about the large soon to be ex member on their doorstep if that ex member is a criminal country.

    What idiots in the EU don't care about how they will interact with a huge criminal country next door?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    It amazes me that May is stll Prime minister having said we were going to leave the Customs Union and Single Market and then told us Chequers was a great deal.

    I don't think our negotiating tactics have made a huge difference although if we had seemed better prepared for no deal we might have actually had some leverage. Everyone who actually knew the EU always thought it unlikely we could get a good deal in 2 years and so it has proved. So many Brexiters seemed to have little understanding of the EU but thought they could second guess them.

    Yes, the failure to make preparations for No Deal, or even to see it as a possibility was the Tories central error.

    May certainly has a tin ear and is devoid of people skills, but even the suave and emmoliative Cameron could not convince the EU to break up the Single Market.

    May's folly was not in her lack of negotiating skill* but in her rigidity that prevented her from exploring other options.

    *demonstrated not only in Salzburg, but also in Chequers itself, where she presented her cabinet with a fait accompli, with the alternative of walking home. No way to treat your own colleagues.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    kle4 said:

    Predictable stuff, but really what is the plan now? Does May try to cave in further? She knows she cannot get that through. Does she bluff and go back in 4 weeks with the same proposal? I don't think the EU are bluffing on this. Does she chuck Chequers and swiftly go with a harder proposal? How can she do that when she has rubbished anything but her own plan?

    Most likely she tries to adjust her plan in a way that she can say is not really adjusting it, and hope the EU buy that and it still passes the Commons, no mean feat. But how do the EU sell that given today?

    My gut says a referendum is on its way somehow, despite all the protestations and the fiendishly awkward path that requires.
    If we don't want to remain, or hard Brexit, then EFTA makes more sense than anything else. That should have been what Cameron pursued after the worthless renegotiations.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    kle4 said:

    Predictable stuff, but really what is the plan now? Does May try to cave in further? She knows she cannot get that through. Does she bluff and go back in 4 weeks with the same proposal? I don't think the EU are bluffing on this. Does she chuck Chequers and swiftly go with a harder proposal? How can she do that when she has rubbished anything but her own plan?

    Most likely she tries to adjust her plan in a way that she can say is not really adjusting it, and hope the EU buy that and it still passes the Commons, no mean feat. But how do the EU sell that given today?

    My gut says a referendum is on its way somehow, despite all the protestations and the fiendishly awkward path that requires.
    She could likely still get a stay in the single market and customs union until December 2020 transition deal as originally planned through Parliament which would buy her time to work on amending Chequers for a FTA
  • We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    Traitor. No Englishman should agree with the French head of state.

    Nothing will unite Britons behind the PM faster than being bullied by the French.
  • JenSJenS Posts: 91
    It's obvious the EU is not negotiating in good faith because it is not complying with Article 50. Article 50 requires the withdrawal negotiations to be based on "the framework for its future relationship with the Union." Also, it's been pointed out before that the EU style (which is not in itself in bad faith) is not to negotiate at all but to present a carefully calculated offer which is not-negotiable. So there's been no good faith on the EU side AND no negotiation. The UK assumed good faith and also capitulated in the first stage of the talks (by accepting the EU offer on sequencing, NI etc) in order to make room for proper negotiation to follow. It hasn't followed.

    So it's no deal. It's stupid, but the EU isn't nimble enough to change course. I voted remain but this whole business has shown why the EU is doomed. It can't adapt, it can't steer out of trouble once it has set a course, and it has demonstrated terrible judgment. I can't understand why the officials who failed to give Cameron a deal he could sell to the UK electorate (which really wouldn't have taken much) are still in post. That too shows how dysfunctional the whole juggernaut is. It's all very sad and everyone will lose by it.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    JohnO said:

    Jonathan said:

    JohnO said:

    Let’s see what transpires in November or December. I think Drs Palmer and Nabavi have called this correctly. Alarums, tantrums, walk-outs, ultimatums over the next 8 weeks....leading to, well, who knows what?

    So who will blink?
    Hopefully both with elegant synchronised elan.
    You have to competent or lucky to pull that off. Something has to change.
  • We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    My wife has just seen that headline and said

    'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'

    And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
    Please tell Mrs G that we cannot 'have nothing to do with them' - geography dictates that we are part of Europe. Isolating ourselves will have dire economic consequences as you yourself have pointed out on numerous occasions.
    Geography dictators that Japan are neighbours to China. So what?

    Hunt's gaffe aside does that make the Japanese Chinese?
  • HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    Hardly surprising, if there was a UK En Marche you would be at the front of the queue with Osborne and Clegg to sign up

    Remember when TSE pretended to be a eurosceptic? :D
    TSE is now almost as EUphile as William Glenn
    William is a very good proxy for exactly how the EU institutions and their ideologues think, however.

    It seems they are either staffed or advised (or both) by people exactly like him.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697
    edited September 2018
    Foxy said:



    Yes, the failure to make preparations for No Deal, or even to see it as a possibility was the Tories central error.

    Blame that waste of space Hammond for that one...
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    edited September 2018

    We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    Traitor. No Englishman should agree with the French head of state.

    Nothing will unite Britons behind the PM faster than being bullied by the French.
    So is believing the French head of state is telling the truth going to be a traitorous thought-crime in the brave new post-Brexit world?
  • OchEye said:

    kle4 said:

    OchEye said:

    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    Selmayr spin, IIRC.

    Europe are not negotiating in good faith. No deal it is, then...
    The EU do not have to negotiate in anyone's good faith, we were the idiots who wanted out...
    It's in their interests to strike a deal too, they have been clear on that. If it weren't, they wouldn't negotiate at all, in good or bad faith. It isn't a favour to us to negotiate something. No they don't need to cross what they think is a red line to get a deal, but both sides will clearly be game playing (because it is a negotiation after all), and if they play it badly that isn't good for them either in the end.
    The EU works on a series of rules and laws which the UK is trying to circumvent. 28, soon to be 27, do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member, they all have enough problems of their own to deal with, that is why they instruct the EU Commission to deal with it under their instructions.
    EU rules and laws like those on vehicle emissions which were conveniently ignored ?

    ' When American authorities revealed that Volkswagen used software to trick pollution tests, it spurred widespread outrage. Documents obtained by SPIEGEL show that European officials knew about the deception for years -- but didn't act on it. '

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/business/volkswagen-how-officials-ignored-years-of-emissions-evidence-a-1108325.html

    Conveniently ignored that is for German carmakers but not for the thousands of people who have died as a result.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    My wife has just seen that headline and said

    'What an insulting bunch - we should have nothing to do with them'

    And she like me until today expected the EU to negotiate in good faith
    Please tell Mrs G that we cannot 'have nothing to do with them' - geography dictates that we are part of Europe. Isolating ourselves will have dire economic consequences as you yourself have pointed out on numerous occasions.
    This about freedom, self determination, and democracy, not economics. Remain still have not twigged that.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    I need to lie down.

    Has the Telegraph turned on Brexit?
    Maybe, need to see the Mail front page.
    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042885864450392065
    Hmm......there is something about the way that skirt hangs on her that suggests ..... I could be wrong of course........she is expecting.
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    GIN1138 said:

    I keep saying it but David Davis told Theresa it was a bad idea.

    That said, the EU could've pulled the plug on Chequers rather more kindly than the abject humiliation the dolled out to Theresa May today...

    Not that I really care about Theresa being humiliated (hey this is the woman who was threatening to make her Cabinet walk down the Chequers drives and get taxi home if they resigned on 6th July) but Theresa is basically representing the British people at these summits so when they humiliate her they humiliate the people and the country she is representing.

    And that's just not the done thing IMO.

    I agree with the optics, but the rejection itself was foreseeable. May's judgement is terrible. This is a self-inflicted blow second only to the general election. May will have to go quite soon I think, she's really not up to the job of cooking up a workable Plan B.
  • kle4 said:

    OchEye said:

    kle4 said:

    OchEye said:

    Mortimer said:

    kle4 said:

    Reading between the lines, it appears Mrs May's (lack of) people skills caused this.

    I don't buy that. Complex, high level technical points failed because May is not a chummy person?
    Selmayr spin, IIRC.

    Europe are not negotiating in good faith. No deal it is, then...
    The EU do not have to negotiate in anyone's good faith, we were the idiots who wanted out...
    It's in their interests to strike a deal too, they have been clear on that. If it weren't, they wouldn't negotiate at all, in good or bad faith. It isn't a favour to us to negotiate something. No they don't need to cross what they think is a red line to get a deal, but both sides will clearly be game playing (because it is a negotiation after all), and if they play it badly that isn't good for them either in the end.
    The EU works on a series of rules and laws which the UK is trying to circumvent. 28, soon to be 27, do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member, they all have enough problems of their own to deal with, that is why they instruct the EU Commission to deal with it under their instructions.
    This, once again, is one of those supposedly pro-EU arguments that make the EU look like idiots - they don't care about one of the largest countries in Europe on their doorstep? I give them more credit than that.

    You've also totally missed my point which was not that the EU should do us favours, clearly they won't, but that a deal happening is not doing us a favour. Clearly they do not want nor should they want a deal at any cost, but you are quite right they have plenty of other problems to deal with - a hostile ex member with a chaotic no deal relationship is a problem they might like to avoid, and possibly even compromise on some other things to get.

    And personally I think the EU are smart enough to want to avoid such a problem. They might not be able to avoid that problem, due to their politics and our own of course, but the idea they 'do not give a monkeys about a soon to be ex-member' makes them look very bad indeed. You should respect them more than that.
    It’s remarkable that anyone British wants to stay in this organisation.
  • The Leavers are particularly batshit mental tonight. Next step will be dynamiting the Channel Tunnel.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,069

    We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    Traitor. No Englishman should agree with the French head of state.

    Nothing will unite Britons behind the PM faster than being bullied by the French.
    Yes, but the quote that is on the front page of the Telegraph is undeniably true. If you think that is bullying, then you should perhaps get out in the real world more.


  • We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    Traitor. No Englishman should agree with the French head of state.

    Nothing will unite Britons behind the PM faster than being bullied by the French.
    A very strange worldview indeed.
  • Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    Sorry, time zone meant that I only just saw this as well as last night’s outcome.

    I agree with you that the attitude displayed by the EU is deeply disrespectful to TM. She clearly didn’t make her Chequers plan without a lot of consultation behind the scenes so she has a right to be very disappointed with the way they treated her. I don’t like Chequers but I do recognise that if she wanted to meet the EU demands in NI it was one of the few ways that this could be done that would be politically possible. If there is a crisis it is incumbent on both sides to suggest a resolution. The EU have consistently demanded that May come up with solutions without offering anything at their end and then mocked every suggestion she has made. Despite my dislike of May’s approach, I am not at all happy to see her being humiliated and at the end of the day she is the British PM and will get a lot of support for her dignity.

    Brexit is one of the most contentious issues in UK political history and although I see the ability to choose and discuss this as a great thing for political engagement I think we all get carried away at times and I am certainly just as guilty of this as anyone. However, I respect your deeply held views and in fact I think that politics should be about conviction, argument as well as wanting what is best for your country and family. All my family are in the UK so we so share the same objective even if we have different views on how to achieve it.

    Of course, if May responds by making more concessions then it will be back to a state of war again ;)
  • The Sun is definitely in Mrs May's corner (and I bet the next time she meets Macron she'll be in heels..):

    https://twitter.com/TheSun/status/1042886709946601472

    That’s more like it. :)

    And put the EUs useful idiots and quislings, Corbyn, Greening, Lineker etc on as real rats tommorow.

    Nobody likes rats or gangsters.

    Well maybe some Gangsters are much loved. Perhaps even in Urban it’s a term of endearment. But there’s nothing likeable about a rat!

    Except maybe ratty from Wind In The Willows. Or was he really rat, or more an honorary vowle?
  • HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    Hardly surprising, if there was a UK En Marche you would be at the front of the queue with Osborne and Clegg to sign up

    Remember when TSE pretended to be a eurosceptic? :D
    TSE is now almost as EUphile as William Glenn
    William is a very good proxy for exactly how the EU institutions and their ideologues think, however.

    It seems they are either staffed or advised (or both) by people exactly like him.
    I'm considered quite the Eurosceptic by my friends, given my rampant Francophilia and my opposition to the UK ever joining the Euro.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    edited September 2018

    The Leavers are particularly batshit mental tonight. Next step will be dynamiting the Channel Tunnel.

    Well apparently when it was built, I believe there are provisions for just such an event.

    Seriously, not going to happen though.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697

    The Leavers are particularly batshit mental tonight. Next step will be dynamiting the Channel Tunnel.

    No you just need to brick it up surely? :D
  • glwglw Posts: 9,535
    JenS said:

    So it's no deal. It's stupid, but the EU isn't nimble enough to change course. I voted remain but this whole business has shown why the EU is doomed. It can't adapt, it can't steer out of trouble once it has set a course, and it has demonstrated terrible judgment. I can't understand why the officials who failed to give Cameron a deal he could sell to the UK electorate (which really wouldn't have taken much) are still in post. That too shows how dysfunctional the whole juggernaut is. It's all very sad and everyone will lose by it.

    It's exactly that lack of ability to be flexible and willing to change course that pushed a lot of us relucatant Leavers over the edge in the first place.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    As you are a national barometer of fair play, I think that is a profound shift in the nation's mood Mr _G.
    BigG is inclined to put the interests of the Conservative Party above all else. If he's now quite happy at the prospect of Airbus moving out of N Wales because Mrs May has been outmanoeuvred yet again then so be it but I seriously doubt the country will be following his lead.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,211
    Jonathan said:

    JohnO said:

    Jonathan said:

    JohnO said:

    Let’s see what transpires in November or December. I think Drs Palmer and Nabavi have called this correctly. Alarums, tantrums, walk-outs, ultimatums over the next 8 weeks....leading to, well, who knows what?

    So who will blink?
    Hopefully both with elegant synchronised elan.
    You have to competent or lucky to pull that off. Something has to change.
    But assuredly that will be the basis of any deal despite today’s events. But will it be credible in the sense that Cameron’s palpably wasn’t? That by definition we can’t know now. More immediately it’s not clear whether the latest fiasco helps or hinders Mrs May in the run-up to the Tory conference.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    glw said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I keep saying it but David Davis told Theresa it was a bad idea.

    That said, the EU could've pulled the plug on Chequers rather more kindly than the abject humiliation the dolled out to Theresa May today...

    Not that I really care about Theresa being humiliated (hey this is the woman who was threatening to make her Cabinet walk down the Chequers drives and get taxi home if they resigned on 6th July) but Theresa is basically representing the British people at these summits so when they humiliate her they humiliate the people and the country she is representing.

    And that's just not the done thing IMO.

    May will have to go quite soon I think, she's really not up to the job of cooking up a workable Plan B.
    Indeed. Today is in fact good in a way, as it should mean we have been spared the pretense that all was pretty much hunky dorey until the dotted line was signed in November, and then in the days and weeks after it is clear it is all an unacceptable fudge. It means other options have to be tried, significant departures from what is currently being offered.

    That could be significant in terms of concessions or significant in terms of no deal or hard brexit preparation. Either way May is not in a position to do either. Unless she somehow shunts the choice of which to try to a referendum, which is still implausible even though my gut thinks it could happen, she can't change direction given rubbishing the other scenarios.
    Cyclefree said:

    We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    I need to lie down.

    Has the Telegraph turned on Brexit?
    Maybe, need to see the Mail front page.
    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042885864450392065
    Hmm......there is something about the way that skirt hangs on her that suggests ..... I could be wrong of course........she is expecting.
    Surely not, all the glossy magazines I pass by at the newsagents would have been shouting 'PREG MEG?!' at me if that were so.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited September 2018
    Great line on Palin on N Korea on C5 asking what some schoolchildren want to be when they grow up one said 'I want to be a teacher, loyal to the great Marshall Kim.'


  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    Hardly surprising, if there was a UK En Marche you would be at the front of the queue with Osborne and Clegg to sign up

    Remember when TSE pretended to be a eurosceptic? :D
    TSE is now almost as EUphile as William Glenn
    William is a very good proxy for exactly how the EU institutions and their ideologues think, however.

    It seems they are either staffed or advised (or both) by people exactly like him.
    I'm considered quite the Eurosceptic by my friends, given my rampant Francophilia and my opposition to the UK ever joining the Euro.

    I thought I saw you fantasizing about us joining the euro in this morning's thread? ;)
  • The Sun has an 'interesting' take on the day's events:

    Euro mobsters ambush May

    WE can’t wait to shake ourselves free of the two-bit mobsters who run the European Union.

    EU leaders promised a fair hearing on our future relationship at yesterday’s crunch Salzburg summit. Instead, Mrs May was ambushed with a cack-handed attempt to sign us up to Brussels’ unacceptable terms there and then. The PM refused to budge on the UK’s red lines, and she’s absolutely right to do so. This lot are more Bugsy Malone than Al Capone. Yesterday the leaders of the undemocratic European Union showed their true colours. This isn’t some grand project, designed to bring the peoples of Europe together in one happy union. It’s a protection racket.


    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/7309816/the-sun-says-eu-brexit-mobsters/
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,281
    Foxy said:

    It amazes me that May is stll Prime minister having said we were going to leave the Customs Union and Single Market and then told us Chequers was a great deal.

    I don't think our negotiating tactics have made a huge difference although if we had seemed better prepared for no deal we might have actually had some leverage. Everyone who actually knew the EU always thought it unlikely we could get a good deal in 2 years and so it has proved. So many Brexiters seemed to have little understanding of the EU but thought they could second guess them.

    Yes, the failure to make preparations for No Deal, or even to see it as a possibility was the Tories central error.

    May certainly has a tin ear and is devoid of people skills, but even the suave and emmoliative Cameron could not convince the EU to break up the Single Market.

    May's folly was not in her lack of negotiating skill* but in her rigidity that prevented her from exploring other options.

    *demonstrated not only in Salzburg, but also in Chequers itself, where she presented her cabinet with a fait accompli, with the alternative of walking home. No way to treat your own colleagues.
    Agreed. She made a fundamental error at the start in setting such strict criteria for Brexit. Had she simply gone for a Norway option she could have satisfied the mandate of the EU-ref without all this angst. But no, for some reason she felt she had to comitti to a cake-and-eat-it Brexit that the EU would have been crazy to sign-up to.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    OllyT said:

    FPT

    Today has been a deeply depressing day where a group of men in the main set out to humiliate the elected female Prime Minister of a Country that has democratically voted to leave and a Prime Minister who up until now has been warm and generous in seeking a deep friendship in the future.

    They are an absolute disgrace and they have lost me today. I gave the EU the benefit of believing they would negotiate in good faith and that has been trashed.

    To Aussie Archer I apologise if at times I came over as over protective of our jobs and backed TM deal or a second referendum. The EU has convinced me I want out unless they give a deal to TM and I do not want a second referendum

    As you are a national barometer of fair play, I think that is a profound shift in the nation's mood Mr _G.
    BigG is inclined to put the interests of the Conservative Party above all else. If he's now quite happy at the prospect of Airbus moving out of N Wales because Mrs May has been outmanoeuvred yet again then so be it but I seriously doubt the country will be following his lead.
    BigG has criticised the tory party on numerous occasions. He's loyal, but not putting it above all else.

    Though I think in a few days after the predictable manic reaction we all have to such events plenty of people will once gain contemplate previously unthinkable alternatives rather than the bleakness of no deal.
  • We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    Traitor. No Englishman should agree with the French head of state.

    Nothing will unite Britons behind the PM faster than being bullied by the French.
    A very strange worldview indeed.
    Nah, is the birthright of every Englishman to be rude about the French.

    Heck my ancestors came from the Indian subcontinent and it was ingrained into me.

    Actually my derision towards the French stems from the time I visited Normandy as part of the 50th anniversary of D-Day.

    Not realising I could speak French, I could hear just how bitter the French were that they were liberated by Les Rosbifs and the Anglos.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    We live in a messed up world.

    I agree with the President of France.

    https://twitter.com/AllieHBNews/status/1042881914326200320

    I need to lie down.

    Hardly surprising, if there was a UK En Marche you would be at the front of the queue with Osborne and Clegg to sign up

    Remember when TSE pretended to be a eurosceptic? :D
    TSE is now almost as EUphile as William Glenn
    William is a very good proxy for exactly how the EU institutions and their ideologues think, however.

    It seems they are either staffed or advised (or both) by people exactly like him.
    I'm considered quite the Eurosceptic by my friends, given my rampant Francophilia and my opposition to the UK ever joining the Euro.
    Not what you were posting this morning
This discussion has been closed.