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  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037

    The Tories are becoming the British Sinn Féin.

    https://twitter.com/stevedouble/status/1043154733404323842

    Typical shallow minded response - not addressing the pertinent issues at hand. Who is this Steve Double anyway? - never heard of him!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    murali_s said:

    spudgfsh said:

    Foxy said:

    Fenster said:

    Nigelb said:

    Fenster said:

    Sounds like he's a bit worried he broke the EU....
    I suspect Tusk, Macron and others have been shocked by the reaction and I very much doubt many EU nations are happy with the reporting of their humiliation of TM

    I suspect the word 'cherry picking' may well cease to be used again
    The EU have every right to take the piss out of May. She's crap.

    And we shouldn't get tetchy about being humiliated. It's all par for the course. The French - particularly Macron - hate us.

    We'd be taking the piss out of them if the shoe was on the other foot.
    I don't think recommending that everyone revel in national humiliation is a winning political strategy.
    Why? The Remainers reckon they'll cruise a People's Vote after spending two years winning over voters with the exact same strategy.
    First lets have the #peoplesvote passed by Parliament, then the positive pro EU campaign.
    It's that kind of talk that got us in this mess in the first place. There have been no outlets in both the Media or Political Parties for the kind of positive message about the EU. There have certainly been none that got any traction (sorry LIb Dems). It became far to easy for politicians and the media to bash the EU and that made it possible for the Brexiteers to make the policy.

    Whatever happens I can't see anyone putting the Pro-EU case forward effectively because

    1) Nobody has been able to do it successfully before
    2) The people that would need to be convinced (the older folks who voted brexit) are still in favour of Brexit
    The EU is a hard-sell but no-one on the Remain side even tried. Lots of (good) things that we now take for granted started life in the EU. The narrative was set by the Leave campaign right through the campaign.
    The dream of the EU is a very easy sell, it is quite an attractive one. The reality is obviously not as attractive as that, but as the increased fervour since leaving has shown (discounting the 'pro' EU arguments which are really anti EU ones, about how ruthless they are, how difficult it is to leave and how they won't give a monkeys about things off their doorstep, making them look like idiots) it is easy to make a good case.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    murali_s said:

    The Tories are becoming the British Sinn Féin.

    https://twitter.com/stevedouble/status/1043154733404323842

    Typical shallow minded response - not addressing the pertinent issues at hand. Who is this Steve Double anyway? - never heard of him!
    Is there 2 of him?
  • The Tories are becoming the British Sinn Féin.

    https://twitter.com/stevedouble/status/1043154733404323842

    They are hard right English nationalists. You won’t have to put up with it too much longer! Hopefully, the break-up of the UK will finally help my fellow countrymen to understand it isn’t WW2 anymore and Cod Churchillism doesn’t solve 21st century problems. I doubt it, though.

    The Conservatives are neither hard right nor English Nationalists. This week we've had a fresh £2 billion announced for social housing, which bit of that is hard right? Possibly the main problem with the EU talks surrounds May wanting to keep the union together. Where's the English Nationalism in that?
  • JenSJenS Posts: 91
    His first point could be read as punishment Brexit.
    "...Brexit shows us one thing: it's not easy to leave the European Union, it's not without cost, it's not without consequences. That's the first point."
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    I think it would be fair to say that Mrs May is not a happy camper right now.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037

    The Tories are becoming the British Sinn Féin.

    https://twitter.com/stevedouble/status/1043154733404323842

    They are hard right English nationalists. You won’t have to put up with it too much longer! Hopefully, the break-up of the UK will finally help my fellow countrymen to understand it isn’t WW2 anymore and Cod Churchillism doesn’t solve 21st century problems. I doubt it, though.

    The Conservatives are neither hard right nor English Nationalists. This week we've had a fresh £2 billion announced for social housing, which bit of that is hard right? Possibly the main problem with the EU talks surrounds May wanting to keep the union together. Where's the English Nationalism in that?
    You think Mrs May is acting to keep the UK together? This is the beginning of the end of the Union - better get used to it!
  • murali_s said:

    The Tories are becoming the British Sinn Féin.

    https://twitter.com/stevedouble/status/1043154733404323842

    They are hard right English nationalists. You won’t have to put up with it too much longer! Hopefully, the break-up of the UK will finally help my fellow countrymen to understand it isn’t WW2 anymore and Cod Churchillism doesn’t solve 21st century problems. I doubt it, though.

    The Conservatives are neither hard right nor English Nationalists. This week we've had a fresh £2 billion announced for social housing, which bit of that is hard right? Possibly the main problem with the EU talks surrounds May wanting to keep the union together. Where's the English Nationalism in that?
    You think Mrs May is acting to keep the UK together? This is the beginning of the end of the Union - better get used to it!
    Not sure I follow the logic here. Are you saying Scotland will vote to leave the union, so that they can then vote to join the Euro?
  • Anyway, I must be off. The sun is actually shining. May be able to walk the hound without getting wet. Maybe.

    Play nicely, mes amis.
  • John_MJohn_M Posts: 7,503
    murali_s said:

    The Tories are becoming the British Sinn Féin.

    https://twitter.com/stevedouble/status/1043154733404323842

    They are hard right English nationalists. You won’t have to put up with it too much longer! Hopefully, the break-up of the UK will finally help my fellow countrymen to understand it isn’t WW2 anymore and Cod Churchillism doesn’t solve 21st century problems. I doubt it, though.

    The Conservatives are neither hard right nor English Nationalists. This week we've had a fresh £2 billion announced for social housing, which bit of that is hard right? Possibly the main problem with the EU talks surrounds May wanting to keep the union together. Where's the English Nationalism in that?
    You think Mrs May is acting to keep the UK together? This is the beginning of the end of the Union - better get used to it!
    Scots Nats don't care about the Union; it's unsurprising that English Nats don't either.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037
    DavidL said:

    murali_s said:

    The Tories are becoming the British Sinn Féin.

    https://twitter.com/stevedouble/status/1043154733404323842

    Typical shallow minded response - not addressing the pertinent issues at hand. Who is this Steve Double anyway? - never heard of him!
    Is there 2 of him?
    After googling him and seeing his photo, I bloody well hope not!

    (Naughty step for me again I suppose!)
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,772
    JenS said:

    His first point could be read as punishment Brexit.
    "...Brexit shows us one thing: it's not easy to leave the European Union, it's not without cost, it's not without consequences. That's the first point."
    I find it really bizarre that anyone wants to remain in an organisation like this. Really, I just don’t understand it. Of course I get the economic pragmatists and the anything for a quiet life crowd. I even get those who remember the happy days when PB talked about other things.

    But I for one have gone from someone who thought the decision was finely balanced and was seriously concerned about losing Cameron to someone who just wants out at any price. These people increasingly make my skin crawl. I want nothing to do with them.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    As I said on here last night, a pathetically predictable response from elements of the Conservative heartland.

    The usual media suspects have gone overboard on their anti-European ranting pulling out all the old stereotypes and re-enforcing them because they dared not to strew rose petals on the path of the beloved Britannia.

    Do I feel "insulted" or "humiliated" ? Not in the least. May's a grown up - she's been in politics long enough to know how the game is played and the dance is danced. Yesterday was a reality check - we've heard nothing but the mantra of "hard work" from the Prime Minister since July 2016 but has that work been done? It seems not.

    We've gone there puffed up by our own a bad deal" once again.

    Of course if Blair had imposed transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 as he could have done the immigration problem would have been much less of an issue.

    As it is I think May will agree a stay in the single market and customs union through the transition period deal for the UK with a customs union backstop for NI but if that has not produced a FTA by the end of 2020 I think Boris will challenge on a Canada style FTA for GB platform
    Even if Blair had imposed a transition period that would have done nothing other than delay the inevitable. Free movement would still be there. The issues would still be there.

    We imposed the maximum possible transition controls on Romania, did that stop a surge in Romanian migrants? No of course it didn't. We now have more Romanians in this country than either Irish or Indians.

    Transition controls are not the answer.
    The lack of transition controls meant the largest number of the Eastern European migrants from Poland, Hungary etc flooded here rather than the rest of the EU for 7 years, after 7 years they were spread more evenly
    The UK is an attractive country transition controls or no transition controls. Especially given our native language is a common second language now across the globe.

    We imposed the transition controls on Romania. Didn't change migration one jot.
    We did not get 100s of thousands of new Eastern Europeans coming from the 2007 accession nations as we did from those coming in 2004
  • so this is interesting.... apols if already been covered... what could it mean....

    https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1043157504543338498
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    edited September 2018
    DavidL said:

    I find it really bizarre that anyone wants to remain in an organisation like this. Really, I just don’t understand it. Of course I get the economic pragmatists and the anything for a quiet life crowd. I even get those who remember the happy days when PB talked about other things.

    But I for one have gone from someone who thought the decision was finely balanced and was seriously concerned about losing Cameron to someone who just wants out at any price. These people increasingly make my skin crawl. I want nothing to do with them.

    I'm afraid we walk among you and we're not going anywhere.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712
    edited September 2018

    "The UK is an attractive country transition controls or no transition controls. Especially given our native language is a common second language now across the globe.

    We imposed the transition controls on Romania. Didn't change migration one jot"

    Good post Mr Thompson. What you may not like though, is that it is for this very reason that in the long term Brexit will not make "one jot" of difference to immigration to this country. We will simply get less Eastern Europeans and more people from the Indian sub-continent and places like Somalia. That should get a few eyes in suburban Brexitopia swivelling

    Perhaps but I'm OK with it.

    If we end discrimination in favour of Europeans and come up with a more sensible solution then all the better. The Migration Advisory Council recently advised ending discrimination combined with abolishing the cap on skilled migrants. That looks reasonable.
    Well it is a view I suppose, but considering a large number of people were voting for immigration control (or so we are told), then there are going to be a lot of very pissed off xenophobes when they realise immigration has just switched its focus
    Polling shows most voters have no problem with skilled migrants needed it is unskilled uncontrolled immigration they have a problem with
  • so this is interesting.... apols if already been covered... what could it mean....

    https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1043157504543338498

    Aren't they just neighbouring MPs? Probably the local business forum or some such.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    so this is interesting.... apols if already been covered... what could it mean....

    https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1043157504543338498

    David Davis coronation? Both Baker and Grieve are close to Davis and no confidence vote could be on the cards if May persists with Chequers even to No Deal
  • so this is interesting.... apols if already been covered... what could it mean....

    https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1043157504543338498

    Aren't they just neighbouring MPs? Probably the local business forum or some such.
    It does imply that Steve Baker is in the habit of texting Sun journalists though...
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    On topic, yes Labour should offer a second referendum. They can fudge on what exactly it will be on, and they may not even need to deliver depending on if the Tories collapse, precipitating a GE, or capitulate to the EU.
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195
    Feel free to pop into new thread :-)
  • ExiledInScotlandExiledInScotland Posts: 1,501
    edited September 2018
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    As I said on here last night, a pathetically predictable response from elements of the Conservative heartland.

    The usual media suspects have gone overboard on their anti-European ranting pulling out all the old stereotypes and re-enforcing them because they dared not to strew rose petals on the path of the beloved Britannia.

    Do I feel "insulted" or "humiliated" ? Not in the least. May's a grown up - she's been in politics long enough to know how the game is played and the dance is danced. Yesterday was a reality check - we've heard nothing but the mantra of "hard work" from the Prime Minister since July 2016 but has that work been done? It seems not.

    We've gone there puffed up by our own a bad deal" once again.

    Of course if Blair had imposed transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 as he could have done the immigration problem would have been much less of an issue.

    As it is I think May will agree a stay in the single market and customs union through the transition period deal for the UK with a customs union backstop for NI but if that has not produced a FTA by the end of 2020 I think Boris will challenge on a Canada style FTA for GB platform
    Even if Blair had imposed a transition period that would have done nothing other than delay the inevitable. Free movement would still be there. The issues would still be there.

    We imposed the maximum possible transition controls on Romania, did that stop a surge in Romanian migrants? No of course it didn't. We now have more Romanians in this country than either Irish or Indians.

    Transition controls are not the answer.
    The lack of transition controls meant the largest number of the Eastern European migrants from Poland, Hungary etc flooded here rather than the rest of the EU for 7 years, after 7 years they were spread more evenly
    The UK is an attractive country transition controls or no transition controls. Especially given our native language is a common second language now across the globe.

    We imposed the transition controls on Romania. Didn't change migration one jot.
    We did not get 100s of thousands of new Eastern Europeans coming from the 2007 accession nations as we did from those coming in 2004
    As they were EU citizens, they had a right to come legally. After we have left we can differentiate between legal and illegal immigration fairly to people from all over the World. Again I refer to rcs's excellent video on migration and how the Swiss apply demand side measures to reduce illegal immigration to almost zero.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    murali_s said:

    The Tories are becoming the British Sinn Féin.

    https://twitter.com/stevedouble/status/1043154733404323842

    They are hard right English nationalists. You won’t have to put up with it too much longer! Hopefully, the break-up of the UK will finally help my fellow countrymen to understand it isn’t WW2 anymore and Cod Churchillism doesn’t solve 21st century problems. I doubt it, though.

    The Conservatives are neither hard right nor English Nationalists. This week we've had a fresh £2 billion announced for social housing, which bit of that is hard right? Possibly the main problem with the EU talks surrounds May wanting to keep the union together. Where's the English Nationalism in that?
    You think Mrs May is acting to keep the UK together? This is the beginning of the end of the Union - better get used to it!
    Of course she is, and working very hard to do so too. It may not work, perhaps events are such that it is impossible, but she is clearly trying to keep the UK together. And people don't need to get used to it - there have not even been any votes to break it up yet - more are almost certainly coming, and I worry not all would be defeated, but it isn't dead yet.
  • The Tories are becoming the British Sinn Féin.

    https://twitter.com/stevedouble/status/1043154733404323842

    They are hard right English nationalists. You won’t have to put up with it too much longer! Hopefully, the break-up of the UK will finally help my fellow countrymen to understand it isn’t WW2 anymore and Cod Churchillism doesn’t solve 21st century problems. I doubt it, though.

    The Conservatives are neither hard right nor English Nationalists. This week we've had a fresh £2 billion announced for social housing, which bit of that is hard right? Possibly the main problem with the EU talks surrounds May wanting to keep the union together. Where's the English Nationalism in that?

    I refer you to the popularity of Johnson, Rees Mogg and co among the membership of the Conservative party. They are hard right English nationalists.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Yeah, you see that waffling, vacuous nonsense is what I think most people expected yesterday (treating Chequers as a step in the right direction, while still need a lot of work), which in a sense it is good we have been spared - if the EU won't accept our red lines, and won't compromise on theirs, it was good they did so in a tough fashion (even in his statement he seems to blame that on May being 'uncompromising', one of those words that only ever applies as a criticism to an opponent I notice) rather than that statement, which though not rude is still to say that the UK's plan is bollocks. A weaker statement would have given CHequers more hope, even though it stil lwon't be accepted.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,037
    kle4 said:

    On topic, yes Labour should offer a second referendum. They can fudge on what exactly it will be on, and they may not even need to deliver depending on if the Tories collapse, precipitating a GE, or capitulate to the EU.

    Labour's silence in all of this is quite frankly shocking. Sadly Labour has a leader, though a congenial man, is clearly not cut out to lead. His lack of intelligence and lack of political instinct is always going to hold him and Labour back.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    murali_s said:

    kle4 said:

    On topic, yes Labour should offer a second referendum. They can fudge on what exactly it will be on, and they may not even need to deliver depending on if the Tories collapse, precipitating a GE, or capitulate to the EU.

    Labour's silence in all of this is quite frankly shocking. Sadly Labour has a leader, though a congenial man, is clearly not cut out to lead. His lack of intelligence and lack of political instinct is always going to hold him and Labour back.
    It tactically makes plenty of sense, hence his 'masterly inactivity' being praised by some because, supposedly, most Labour members just don't care about the matter as much. I can recognise on a pure tactical sense that is perhaps a sound move, but as you say it is not even attempting to lead on what is one of the most important issues of our time. Wait and see and fudge it might work, but it isn't admirable.

    As Guy Verhofstadt once said

    Most of the political leaders [in continental Europe] are simply following nationalist and populist rhetoric, and that is for me not a democracy. A democracy, in my opinion, is a political leader developing a vision and then trying to convince the public opinion to follow his vision, and not what is happening now.
  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,785
    edited September 2018
    Strange how we comment endlessly on every last bit of UK political intrigue and faction on here and then just see the EU as if it is some monolith.

    My opinion is that the EU negotiators have been trying, in good faith, to see a way through Chequers, and that though they were liaising with their paymasters, the nation states, this did not get the amount of bandwidth with the heads of those states until this summit. The heads of state did not like what they saw. Tusk's tone at the press conference was not off the cuff, but reflected accurately the concensus of those sovereign nations to kill off Chequers.

    It is not like UK ministers never send their advisors scurrying back to think again on crucial matters and the EUs institutional limitations do not bad faith make.

    I expect Barnier's team to, in good faith, attempt to meet May's challenge of devising something of their own between FTA and SM - a kind of Chequeheures deal, if you like. But, in good faith, that cupboard may be bare.

    Where the EU can take blame yesterday is in two respects - Tusk's Instagram post was poor but more egregiously, and this is where my case for good faith is stretched, what the hell is all this '10 minutes at the end of dinner' rubbish? Cameron had it, now May. Is that the general rule for any national special pleading, like supplication is supposed to be a small part at the end of prayer, or is it just for us?


  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,712

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    As I said on here last night, a pathetically predictable bad deal" once again.

    Of course if Blair had imposed transition controls on free movement from the new accession countries in 2004 as he could have done the immigration problem would have been much less of an issue.

    As it is I think May will agree a stay in the single market and customs union through the transition period deal for the UK with a customs union backstop for NI but if that has not produced a FTA by the end of 2020 I think Boris will challenge on a Canada style FTA for GB platform
    Even if Blair had imposed a transition period that would have done nothing other than delay the inevitable. Free movement would still be there. The issues would still be there.

    We imposed the maximum possible transition controls on Romania, did that stop a surge in Romanian migrants? No of course it didn't. We now have more Romanians in this country than either Irish or Indians.

    Transition controls are not the answer.
    The lack of transition controls meant the largest number of the Eastern European migrants from Poland, Hungary etc flooded here rather than the rest of the EU for 7 years, after 7 years they were spread more evenly
    The UK is an attractive country transition controls or no transition controls. Especially given our native language is a common second language now across the globe.

    We imposed the transition controls on Romania. Didn't change migration one jot.
    We did not get 100s of thousands of new Eastern Europeans coming from the 2007 accession nations as we did from those coming in 2004
    As they were EU citizens, they had a right to come legally. After we have left we can differentiate between legal and illegal immigration fairly to people from all over the World. Again I refer to rcs's excellent video on migration and how the Swiss apply demand side measures to reduce illegal immigration to almost zero.
    We also had the right to impose transition controls on free movement from the 2004 accession nations but Blair refused to do so
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Floater said:

    TOPPING said:

    murali_s said:

    I am sorry if I have offended anyone - I will *try* to play nice from now on.

    Rubbish. PB is interesting because it has all flavours of debate and yours is just as valid as anyone else's. Keep at it.
    You ok with people lobbing insults at large sections of the population?
    Yep. It's an internet chat room.
This discussion has been closed.