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  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    TGOHF said:

    Anazina said:

    In

    Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    It is because he actually understands business. Proper business that is, where you make stuff and sell it, not the Jacob Rees-Mogg variety.
    Hammond is a sensible, measured and sane.
    and also

    Unispiring
    Staid
    Stale
    Boring
    Unimaginative
    Dull
    Reactive
    Cowardly
    Socialist

    Wow if you'd promoted Reactive to fourth in your list you'd have had a USSR acrostic!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Eagles, ha, I got on slightly slowly so 'only' got 50/1.

    A 101 winner would be something. Nearly half as good as my Verstappen tip ;)
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Scott_P said:
    Hunt's prison point was fine, his comparison to the USSR inadvisable
    The parallel drawn with a country completely unwilling to let its citizens choose to leave was apt. If you object to the Soviet Union and its satellites being chosen to illustrate the point, what other country or bloc of countries would you have cited instead?

    As for FCO mandarins, they are responsible for leading us down the garden path and straining every sinew to keep us there since.
    I wouldn't. Prison was enough of an analogy.

    The Polish are right, the EU hasn't brought tens of thousands of deaths or forty years of oppression to the UK.
    What is the world coming to if every time someone draws an analogy between A and B regarding point X, it is shot down because someone else contrives to imply that the analogy was drawn with regard to point Y and Z instead. It just closes down any rational discussion. Frankly I have better things to do than indulge you further.
    Ken and the concentration camp guard?
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Re: Ryder Cup scoring.

    Once a team has passed the winning margin, all other holes remaining across the slate should be declared A/S. This would end the fiasco of players having to play out dead rubbers when their mates are already out on the piss and the crowds are already celebrating.

    I guess you could play out any holes actually in play, then any remaining holes are effectively wiped off. So if Bill is 2UP on Ben thru 14 then Bill is declared to have won 2&1 (as he would have effectively got to Hole 17 and his notional lead would thereby have been unassailable).

    Not sure.

    It is a fair point but if I was playing Tiger Woods and had a chance of beating him I would want to play out the match.

    Mind you Woods abject failure was entirely predictable. He wins one competition and suddenly the US promote him to God like status when in truth he is long past it, as is Mickelson.

    Neither should have been in the US team
    If you were at least 1UP against Tiger you would have beaten him, that's my point. As long as you were leading at the cut-off point (once one team surpasses 14.5pts) the records will show you as having beaten him.

    P.S. Woods was poor in the Ryder Cup but I'm not sure he is past it as you say. He is never good in the Ryder Cup. I do think he (in stroke play tournaments) seems to have improved in recent months, and might yet win another major.
    As a former 9 handicap golfer, past captain and past president of a golf club and having played competitive golf for over 50 years before my ostearthritis stopped my playing days I can say that being 1 up with still holes to play would not have beaten him and would not have satisfied me
    Well that’s your opinion but the Ryder Cup is a brilliant *team* event. It does however have a structural flaw insofar as it continues after it has already ended!
    I just think that is integral to the competition. You do not get the real result by aborting it at 14.5% and letting on course scores become default
    You might just as well say you do not get the 'real result' by Mickelson conceding his match when he got wet yesterday. The real result is merely what's within the rules.

    I am suggesting a sensible rule change that would end the poor spectacle of players having to play to dead rubbers when everyone else on the course is celebrating victory.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,921

    Scott_P said:
    Hunt's prison point was fine, his comparison to the USSR inadvisable
    The parallel drawn with a country completely unwilling to let its citizens choose to leave was apt. If you object to the Soviet Union and its satellites being chosen to illustrate the point, what other country or bloc of countries would you have cited instead?

    As for FCO mandarins, they are responsible for leading us down the garden path and straining every sinew to keep us there since.
    I wouldn't. Prison was enough of an analogy.

    The Polish are right, the EU hasn't brought tens of thousands of deaths or forty years of oppression to the UK.
    What is the world coming to if every time someone draws an analogy between A and B regarding point X, it is shot down because someone else contrives to imply that the analogy was drawn with regard to point Y and Z instead. It just closes down any rational discussion. Frankly I have better things to do than indulge you further.
    Indeed.

    Debate is driven not by words now, but by disrespect for the opinions of others.
  • TGOHF said:

    Anazina said:

    In

    Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    It is because he actually understands business. Proper business that is, where you make stuff and sell it, not the Jacob Rees-Mogg variety.
    Hammond is a sensible, measured and sane.
    and also

    Unispiring
    Staid
    Stale
    Boring
    Unimaginative
    Dull
    Reactive
    Cowardly
    Socialist

    Socialist. Of course. Philip Hammond. Undoubtedly. Yep. For sure. Socialist.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Anazina said:

    TGOHF said:

    Anazina said:

    In

    Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    It is because he actually understands business. Proper business that is, where you make stuff and sell it, not the Jacob Rees-Mogg variety.
    Hammond is a sensible, measured and sane.
    and also

    Unispiring
    Staid
    Stale
    Boring
    Unimaginative
    Dull
    Reactive
    Cowardly
    Socialist

    Wow if you'd promoted Reactive to fourth in your list you'd have had a USSR acrostic!
    Phil wouldn't have lasted ten minutes in the USSR or modern Russia.

    Nevermind chess - tiddlywinks is more his level.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762

    Scott_P said:
    Hunt's prison point was fine, his comparison to the USSR inadvisable
    The parallel drawn with a country completely unwilling to let its citizens choose to leave was apt. If you object to the Soviet Union and its satellites being chosen to illustrate the point, what other country or bloc of countries would you have cited instead?

    As for FCO mandarins, they are responsible for leading us down the garden path and straining every sinew to keep us there since.
    I wouldn't. Prison was enough of an analogy.

    The Polish are right, the EU hasn't brought tens of thousands of deaths or forty years of oppression to the UK.
    Agreed. We should not forget how evil Corbyn's friends in Eastern Europe actually were nor should we trivilise the suffering they inflicted on their own people. These people were murderous, psychopathic, kleptomaniacs, or "friends" as Jeremy called them when visiting.
  • DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Customers as well as staff are being ripped off when restaurant owners pocket the tips given. Restaurant owners have been given years to get their houses in order on this. This is a small bit of populism that seems decent enough to me.

    +1

    The approach I generally take is to ask serving staff if they get all the tip. If not, get restaurants to remove ‘service charges’ from the bill and tip in cash.
    I once received a bill which was a bit more than I'd mentally totted my meal to... removed the 15% service charge from a bill and didn't leave a tip. Told the manager "£8 for two small cokes, that's your tip within the bill".
    'Enforced tipping' is an unwelcome US import in my opinion.
    Round these parts a pint of Coke is often the around the price of a pint of beer. Which is bonkers.

    Lime and Soda is much more refreshing and far cheaper!
    It was ~ 2011 in London, had never seen such cheek on a bill before.
    I can well imagine.

    Was in my old favourite Uni haunt last week, the Kings Arms; some chap ordered a pint of fizzy lager and it was over a fiver. Staggering....
    My son has just started at Dundee uni. He’s only paying £1.90 a pint on nights out. That compares to £5 a pint at home in Edinburgh. Result!
    I presume that this is at the Student Union? I don't think you will find many pubs in the town offering beer at those prices. I certainly don't.
    That’s what I thought - but no, it’s in a pub. I don’t know which though.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    Hunt's prison point was fine, his comparison to the USSR inadvisable
    His prison point was facile.

    If he wanted to make a point about the integrity of the United Kingdom, about its importance to the UK, in the same way that the integrity of the SM is important to the EU then he should have said just that. Not ruined a good point with nonsense about prisons and the Soviet Union.

    There is nothing wrong, in principle, with leaving the EU provided the country is willing to live with the consequences of so doing.

    What is wrong is leaving but expecting there to be no consequences and then blaming others for the fact that the country's position will be different outside an organisation to what it was inside.

    Even if you assume the absolute worst about the EU's approach to a departing member, all of this was pretty much foreseeable - or ought to have been - by those keenest on Brexit. And ought to have been prepared for. The EU's approach may be utterly regrettable but it was not - and is not - in our power to change. But the UK - if it was serious about Brexit - should have been prepared for the consequences of its decision, both good and ill. It is utterly childish to expect to make decisions and then moan about the consequences.

    The Brexiteers in government have been utterly childish throughout this process, are continuing to be so and it is a shame that Hunt, who appeared to be vaguely sane and seemed to be doing good things on his recent trip to the Far East, is joining them.

    He wants to be the Tory leader. He knows his audience. He has no interest in anything beyond that. He is not alone, of course.

  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Mr. Eagles, that wouldn't have anything to do with your 50/1 bet on Hunt to succeed May, would it?

    50/1?

    I tipped him at 100/1 and 66/1.

    Understand you might not remember as I seldom mention it.
    My advice would be to tip Hammond now at 66/1 so you can mention it when our esteemed Chancellor moves next door.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762
    TGOHF said:

    Anazina said:

    In

    Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    It is because he actually understands business. Proper business that is, where you make stuff and sell it, not the Jacob Rees-Mogg variety.
    Hammond is a sensible, measured and sane.
    and also

    Unispiring
    Staid
    Stale
    Boring
    Unimaginative
    Dull
    Reactive
    Cowardly
    Socialist

    The only one I would disagree with there is "socialist". He is a sound money Conservative and has clearly fought hard to ensure that the vast majority of any excess tax revenue is used for deficit reduction.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    Mr. Eagles, that wouldn't have anything to do with your 50/1 bet on Hunt to succeed May, would it?

    50/1?

    I tipped him at 100/1 and 66/1.

    Understand you might not remember as I seldom mention it.
    My advice would be to tip Hammond now at 66/1 so you can mention it when our esteemed Chancellor moves next door.
    Is he moonlighting for Pickfords?
  • Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Re: Ryder Cup scoring.

    Once a team has passed the winning margin, all other holes remaining across the slate should be declared A/S. This would end the fiasco of players having to play out dead rubbers when their mates are already out on the piss and the crowds are already celebrating.

    I guess you could play out any holes actually in play, then any remaining holes are effectively wiped off. So if Bill is 2UP on Ben thru 14 then Bill is declared to have won 2&1 (as he would have effectively got to Hole 17 and his notional lead would thereby have been unassailable).

    Not sure.

    It is a fair point but if I was playing Tiger Woods and had a chance of beating him I would want to play out the match.

    Mind you Woods abject failure was entirely predictable. He wins one competition and suddenly the US promote him to God like status when in truth he is long past it, as is Mickelson.

    Neither should have been in the US team
    If you were at least 1UP against Tiger you would have beaten him, that's my point. As long as you were leading at the cut-off point (once one team surpasses 14.5pts) the records will show you as having beaten him.

    P.S. Woods was poor in the Ryder Cup but I'm not sure he is past it as you say. He is never good in the Ryder Cup. I do think he (in stroke play tournaments) seems to have improved in recent months, and might yet win another major.
    As a former 9 handicap golfer, past captain and past president of a golf club and having played competitive golf for over 50 years before my ostearthritis stopped my playing days I can say that being 1 up with still holes to play would not have beaten him and would not have satisfied me
    Well that’s your opinion but the Ryder Cup is a brilliant *team* event. It does however have a structural flaw insofar as it continues after it has already ended!
    I just think that is integral to the competition. You do not get the real result by aborting it at 14.5% and letting on course scores become default
    You might just as well say you do not get the 'real result' by Mickelson conceding his match when he got wet yesterday. The real result is merely what's within the rules.

    I am suggesting a sensible rule change that would end the poor spectacle of players having to play to dead rubbers when everyone else on the course is celebrating victory.
    I do understand your point as yesterday only one match remained but Noren beating Dechambeau must have been a huge moment for him, especially as it went to the 18th
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762

    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Customers as well as staff are being ripped off when restaurant owners pocket the tips given. Restaurant owners have been given years to get their houses in order on this. This is a small bit of populism that seems decent enough to me.

    +1

    The approach I generally take is to ask serving staff if they get all the tip. If not, get restaurants to remove ‘service charges’ from the bill and tip in cash.
    I once received a bill which was a bit more than I'd mentally totted my meal to... removed the 15% service charge from a bill and didn't leave a tip. Told the manager "£8 for two small cokes, that's your tip within the bill".
    'Enforced tipping' is an unwelcome US import in my opinion.
    Round these parts a pint of Coke is often the around the price of a pint of beer. Which is bonkers.

    Lime and Soda is much more refreshing and far cheaper!
    It was ~ 2011 in London, had never seen such cheek on a bill before.
    I can well imagine.

    Was in my old favourite Uni haunt last week, the Kings Arms; some chap ordered a pint of fizzy lager and it was over a fiver. Staggering....
    My son has just started at Dundee uni. He’s only paying £1.90 a pint on nights out. That compares to £5 a pint at home in Edinburgh. Result!
    I presume that this is at the Student Union? I don't think you will find many pubs in the town offering beer at those prices. I certainly don't.
    That’s what I thought - but no, it’s in a pub. I don’t know which though.
    Fresher's week deal? Beer in Dundee is cheaper than Edinburgh but £3.50 a pint is usually a minimum in my experience.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Off-topic: Tesco Bank has just been fined £16 million for a data breach.
    On-topic: the Conservative Party might want to earmark £16 million if that is the going rate for leaking Boris's (and everyone else's) details.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Mr. Eagles, that wouldn't have anything to do with your 50/1 bet on Hunt to succeed May, would it?

    50/1?

    I tipped him at 100/1 and 66/1.

    Understand you might not remember as I seldom mention it.
    My advice would be to tip Hammond now at 66/1 so you can mention it when our esteemed Chancellor moves next door.
    Is he moonlighting for Pickfords?
    Pickfords let him keep the tips.
  • DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:

    Anazina said:

    In

    Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    It is because he actually understands business. Proper business that is, where you make stuff and sell it, not the Jacob Rees-Mogg variety.
    Hammond is a sensible, measured and sane.
    and also

    Unispiring
    Staid
    Stale
    Boring
    Unimaginative
    Dull
    Reactive
    Cowardly
    Socialist

    The only one I would disagree with there is "socialist". He is a sound money Conservative and has clearly fought hard to ensure that the vast majority of any excess tax revenue is used for deficit reduction.
    He's not cowardly either by any stretch of the imagination. He has shown a lot of backbone in telling things as they are, not as some in the party would like them to be.

    'Dull' I'll grant.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:

    Anazina said:

    In

    Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    It is because he actually understands business. Proper business that is, where you make stuff and sell it, not the Jacob Rees-Mogg variety.
    Hammond is a sensible, measured and sane.
    and also

    Unispiring
    Staid
    Stale
    Boring
    Unimaginative
    Dull
    Reactive
    Cowardly
    Socialist

    The only one I would disagree with there is "socialist". He is a sound money Conservative and has clearly fought hard to ensure that the vast majority of any excess tax revenue is used for deficit reduction.
    He's a tax raiser not a cutter.

    Which makes him extremely unsuitable to be a Conservative CoTE.

  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Anazina said:

    Re: Ryder Cup scoring.

    Once a team has passed the winning margin, all other holes remaining across the slate should be declared A/S. This would end the fiasco of players having to play out dead rubbers when their mates are already out on the piss and the crowds are already celebrating.

    I guess you could play out any holes actually in play, then any remaining holes are effectively wiped off. So if Bill is 2UP on Ben thru 14 then Bill is declared to have won 2&1 (as he would have effectively got to Hole 17 and his notional lead would thereby have been unassailable).

    snip
    If you were at least 1UP against Tiger you would have beaten him, that's my point. As long as you were leading at the cut-off point (once one team surpasses 14.5pts) the records will show you as having beaten him.

    P.S. Woods was poor in the Ryder Cup but I'm not sure he is past it as you say. He is never good in the Ryder Cup. I do think he (in stroke play tournaments) seems to have improved in recent months, and might yet win another major.
    As a former 9 handicap golfer, past captain and past president of a golf club and having played competitive golf for over 50 years before my ostearthritis stopped my playing days I can say that being 1 up with still holes to play would not have beaten him and would not have satisfied me
    Well that’s your opinion but the Ryder Cup is a brilliant *team* event. It does however have a structural flaw insofar as it continues after it has already ended!
    I just think that is integral to the competition. You do not get the real result by aborting it at 14.5% and letting on course scores become default
    You might just as well say you do not get the 'real result' by Mickelson conceding his match when he got wet yesterday. The real result is merely what's within the rules.

    I am suggesting a sensible rule change that would end the poor spectacle of players having to play to dead rubbers when everyone else on the course is celebrating victory.
    I do understand your point as yesterday only one match remained but Noren beating Dechambeau must have been a huge moment for him, especially as it went to the 18th
    He was 1UP thru 14, so would have won the match 1UP in my scoring system without having to play the final four holes.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Customers as well as staff are being ripped off when restaurant owners pocket the tips given. Restaurant owners have been given years to get their houses in order on this. This is a small bit of populism that seems decent enough to me.

    +1

    The approach I generally take is to ask serving staff if they get all the tip. If not, get restaurants to remove ‘service charges’ from the bill and tip in cash.
    I once received a bill which was a bit more than I'd mentally totted my meal to... removed the 15% service charge from a bill and didn't leave a tip. Told the manager "£8 for two small cokes, that's your tip within the bill".
    'Enforced tipping' is an unwelcome US import in my opinion.
    Round these parts a pint of Coke is often the around the price of a pint of beer. Which is bonkers.

    Lime and Soda is much more refreshing and far cheaper!
    It was ~ 2011 in London, had never seen such cheek on a bill before.
    I can well imagine.

    Was in my old favourite Uni haunt last week, the Kings Arms; some chap ordered a pint of fizzy lager and it was over a fiver. Staggering....
    My son has just started at Dundee uni. He’s only paying £1.90 a pint on nights out. That compares to £5 a pint at home in Edinburgh. Result!
    I presume that this is at the Student Union? I don't think you will find many pubs in the town offering beer at those prices. I certainly don't.
    That’s what I thought - but no, it’s in a pub. I don’t know which though.
    Fresher's week deal? Beer in Dundee is cheaper than Edinburgh but £3.50 a pint is usually a minimum in my experience.
    Not a deal. It’s where the rugby club go. I suspect their ability to detect cheap beer may exceed the depths to which we may go
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Customers as well as staff are being ripped off when restaurant owners pocket the tips given. Restaurant owners have been given years to get their houses in order on this. This is a small bit of populism that seems decent enough to me.

    +1

    The approach I generally take is to ask serving staff if they get all the tip. If not, get restaurants to remove ‘service charges’ from the bill and tip in cash.
    I once received a bill which was a bit more than I'd mentally totted my meal to... removed the 15% service charge from a bill and didn't leave a tip. Told the manager "£8 for two small cokes, that's your tip within the bill".
    'Enforced tipping' is an unwelcome US import in my opinion.
    Round these parts a pint of Coke is often the around the price of a pint of beer. Which is bonkers.

    Lime and Soda is much more refreshing and far cheaper!
    It was ~ 2011 in London, had never seen such cheek on a bill before.
    I can well imagine.

    Was in my old favourite Uni haunt last week, the Kings Arms; some chap ordered a pint of fizzy lager and it was over a fiver. Staggering....
    My son has just started at Dundee uni. He’s only paying £1.90 a pint on nights out. That compares to £5 a pint at home in Edinburgh. Result!
    I presume that this is at the Student Union? I don't think you will find many pubs in the town offering beer at those prices. I certainly don't.
    That’s what I thought - but no, it’s in a pub. I don’t know which though.
    Fresher's week deal? Beer in Dundee is cheaper than Edinburgh but £3.50 a pint is usually a minimum in my experience.
    There was a pub near where I studied where beer was 1/- a pint. That was around 1960 though.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    matt said:




    Mr. NorthWales, I noticed that. Crass and self-absorbed effort to try and give broadcasters the whip hand, and the numbers are pretty damned small.

    Televised election debates are here to stay. An independent commission would seem an appropriate way to manage it and if the wave is coming is better to try and ride it.
    They have not arrived in a fixed given format. No consistency at al between the elections of 2010, 2015 and 2017. That fact alone makes it easier for party leaders to be obstructive should it suit them at a particular time.
  • Off-topic: Tesco Bank has just been fined £16 million for a data breach.
    On-topic: the Conservative Party might want to earmark £16 million if that is the going rate for leaking Boris's (and everyone else's) details.

    It was nothing like Tesco problems
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    Hunt's prison point was fine, his comparison to the USSR inadvisable
    His prison point was facile.

    If he wanted to make a point about the integrity of the United Kingdom, about its importance to the UK, in the same way that the integrity of the SM is important to the EU then he should have said just that. Not ruined a good point with nonsense about prisons and the Soviet Union.

    There is nothing wrong, in principle, with leaving the EU provided the country is willing to live with the consequences of so doing.

    What is wrong is leaving but expecting there to be no consequences and then blaming others for the fact that the country's position will be different outside an organisation to what it was inside.

    Even if you assume the absolute worst about the EU's approach to a departing member, all of this was pretty much foreseeable - or ought to have been - by those keenest on Brexit. And ought to have been prepared for. The EU's approach may be utterly regrettable but it was not - and is not - in our power to change. But the UK - if it was serious about Brexit - should have been prepared for the consequences of its decision, both good and ill. It is utterly childish to expect to make decisions and then moan about the consequences.

    The Brexiteers in government have been utterly childish throughout this process, are continuing to be so and it is a shame that Hunt, who appeared to be vaguely sane and seemed to be doing good things on his recent trip to the Far East, is joining them.

    He wants to be the Tory leader. He knows his audience. He has no interest in anything beyond that. He is not alone, of course.

    I really don't think he does know his audience, if he thinks that is what it takes to get members' votes....
  • Phil Hammond live now
  • Mr. Eagles, that wouldn't have anything to do with your 50/1 bet on Hunt to succeed May, would it?

    50/1?

    I tipped him at 100/1 and 66/1.

    Understand you might not remember as I seldom mention it.
    My advice would be to tip Hammond now at 66/1 so you can mention it when our esteemed Chancellor moves next door.
    In August I tipped Hammond at 66/1

    http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2018/08/05/history-suggests-one-of-philip-hammond-jeremy-hunt-and-sajid-javid-will-be-theresa-mays-successor-if-she-goes-before-the-next-election/
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Philip Hammond kicks off his speech with a reference to Instagram, and saying Liz Truss is "tight with money".
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Off-topic: Tesco Bank has just been fined £16 million for a data breach.
    On-topic: the Conservative Party might want to earmark £16 million if that is the going rate for leaking Boris's (and everyone else's) details.

    It was nothing like Tesco problems
    At least Tesco made the hackers work for it.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    Utter nonsense from Hammond. The moment the EU have an issue with something we take it off the table, even though they don’t actually need it, but it is fine for the EU to continually demand things that they know are totally against the UKs red lines.

    All he knows about negotiation is how to surrender. Not an issue since he wants the EU to force us to stay in the EEA despite the fact it is against Government policy.

    He must be so mad that Boris is leading the polls to be the next PM and he doesn’t even rate a mention. That is because Hammond is as talentless as he is dishonest.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    Hunt's prison point was fine, his comparison to the USSR inadvisable
    His prison point was facile.

    If he wanted to make a point about the integrity of the United Kingdom, about its importance to the UK, in the same way that the integrity of the SM is important to the EU then he should have said just that. Not ruined a good point with nonsense about prisons and the Soviet Union.

    There is nothing wrong, in principle, with leaving the EU provided the country is willing to live with the consequences of so doing.

    What is wrong is leaving but expecting there to be no consequences and then blaming others for the fact that the country's position will be different outside an organisation to what it was inside.

    Even if you assume the absolute worst about the EU's approach to a departing member, all of this was pretty much foreseeable - or ought to have been - by those keenest on Brexit. And ought to have been prepared for. The EU's approach may be utterly regrettable but it was not - and is not - in our power to change. But the UK - if it was serious about Brexit - should have been prepared for the consequences of its decision, both good and ill. It is utterly childish to expect to make decisions and then moan about the consequences.

    The Brexiteers in government have been utterly childish throughout this process, are continuing to be so and it is a shame that Hunt, who appeared to be vaguely sane and seemed to be doing good things on his recent trip to the Far East, is joining them.

    He wants to be the Tory leader. He knows his audience. He has no interest in anything beyond that. He is not alone, of course.

    I really don't think he does know his audience, if he thinks that is what it takes to get members' votes....
    It was designed to capture the Boris fans; the closest parallel is Johnson's "punishment beatings".
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Customers as well as staff are being ripped off when restaurant owners pocket the tips given. Restaurant owners have been given years to get their houses in order on this. This is a small bit of populism that seems decent enough to me.

    +1

    The approach I generally take is to ask serving staff if they get all the tip. If not, get restaurants to remove ‘service charges’ from the bill and tip in cash.
    I once received a bill which was a bit more than I'd mentally totted my meal to... removed the 15% service charge from a bill and didn't leave a tip. Told the manager "£8 for two small cokes, that's your tip within the bill".
    'Enforced tipping' is an unwelcome US import in my opinion.
    Round these parts a pint of Coke is often the around the price of a pint of beer. Which is bonkers.

    Lime and Soda is much more refreshing and far cheaper!
    It was ~ 2011 in London, had never seen such cheek on a bill before.
    I can well imagine.

    Was in my old favourite Uni haunt last week, the Kings Arms; some chap ordered a pint of fizzy lager and it was over a fiver. Staggering....
    My son has just started at Dundee uni. He’s only paying £1.90 a pint on nights out. That compares to £5 a pint at home in Edinburgh. Result!
    I presume that this is at the Student Union? I don't think you will find many pubs in the town offering beer at those prices. I certainly don't.
    That’s what I thought - but no, it’s in a pub. I don’t know which though.
    Fresher's week deal? Beer in Dundee is cheaper than Edinburgh but £3.50 a pint is usually a minimum in my experience.

    I still remember that a pint of Kronenbourg at the Birmingham students union in 1983 - my first year - was 60 pence.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762
    TGOHF said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:

    Anazina said:

    In

    Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    It is because he actually understands business. Proper business that is, where you make stuff and sell it, not the Jacob Rees-Mogg variety.
    Hammond is a sensible, measured and sane.
    and also

    Unispiring
    Staid
    Stale
    Boring
    Unimaginative
    Dull
    Reactive
    Cowardly
    Socialist

    The only one I would disagree with there is "socialist". He is a sound money Conservative and has clearly fought hard to ensure that the vast majority of any excess tax revenue is used for deficit reduction.
    He's a tax raiser not a cutter.

    Which makes him extremely unsuitable to be a Conservative CoTE.

    The point he is making, which is sound, is that if you want more money for the NHS then you have to pay tax to generate it. It is not just a matter of the government inventing the money out of thin air.

    If you are going to reduce the burden of that tax increase you need to grow the economy which involves a sensible deal on Brexit and safe reliable policies which encourage investment and make this a good place to do business. It is the essential message of the Tories throughout my life and the current phase for fantasy economics on both sides of the aisle does not mean we should forget it.

    Damn, you've got me supporting him now.
  • Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    Utter nonsense from Hammond. The moment the EU have an issue with something we take it off the table, even though they don’t actually need it, but it is fine for the EU to continually demand things that they know are totally against the UKs red lines.

    All he knows about negotiation is how to surrender. Not an issue since he wants the EU to force us to stay in the EEA despite the fact it is against Government policy.

    He must be so mad that Boris is leading the polls to be the next PM and he doesn’t even rate a mention. That is because Hammond is as talentless as he is dishonest.

    What do you mean "we"? Australia is not involved in these negotiations.

  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:

    Anazina said:

    In

    Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    It is because he actually understands business. Proper business that is, where you make stuff and sell it, not the Jacob Rees-Mogg variety.
    Hammond is a sensible, measured and sane.
    and also

    Unispiring
    Staid
    Stale
    Boring
    Unimaginative
    Dull
    Reactive
    Cowardly
    Socialist

    The only one I would disagree with there is "socialist". He is a sound money Conservative and has clearly fought hard to ensure that the vast majority of any excess tax revenue is used for deficit reduction.
    He's not cowardly either by any stretch of the imagination. He has shown a lot of backbone in telling things as they are, not as some in the party would like them to be.

    'Dull' I'll grant.
    Indeed. But being 'exciting' is a vastly overrated quality in politicians.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,741

    Morning all. A few thoughts on some of the topics discussed upthread:

    1. The proposal to ensure that restaurant tips go to the staff is a good one. Contrary to what some people have said, this is not some kind of socialist interference in business, it's a very simple case of honesty: the consumer has a reasonable expectation that tips are tips.

    2. Contrary to the cheap jibes about public schools, it is undeniable that Boris is a very talented and clever man. He's just not suited to high office or any role involving a serious grasp of detail, and should direct his considerable talents elsewhere.

    3. I really don't see what the objection to Jeremy Hunt's USSR comments were. He was simply making the uncontroversial point that the EU shouldn't have to use threats to ensure countries want to remain members, using the analogy of the USSR using force to ensure countries remained part of its bloc and people from emigrating if they wanted to.

    In response (from a non-Conservative perspective):

    1) Arguably it's something the Coalition should have resolved but the mood to use legislation within an apparently self-regulating industry wasn't there. Hospitality UK would argue the catering industry is self-regulating but then so (apparently) were people who sold private pensions in the 1980s and early 90s. At what point is self-regulation deemed to have failed and does legislation become the answer?

    2) I'm a public school product myself so I'm not the best person to judge. I received a good education but left knowing next to nothing about life.

    3) That's pretty desperate. The inference was obvious even if not overtly expressed. It was up there with the Lilley and Portillo gems from the 1990s - a crude attempt to curry favour with an electorate he is desperate to win over. The fact he stoops to do that makes him by definition unfit to be Prime Minister but then you are perhaps part of that electorate (or at least the second stage).
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:

    Anazina said:

    In

    Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    It is because he actually understands business. Proper business that is, where you make stuff and sell it, not the Jacob Rees-Mogg variety.
    Hammond is a sensible, measured and sane.
    and also

    Unispiring
    Staid
    Stale
    Boring
    Unimaginative
    Dull
    Reactive
    Cowardly
    Socialist

    The only one I would disagree with there is "socialist". He is a sound money Conservative and has clearly fought hard to ensure that the vast majority of any excess tax revenue is used for deficit reduction.
    He's not cowardly either by any stretch of the imagination. He has shown a lot of backbone in telling things as they are, not as some in the party would like them to be.

    'Dull' I'll grant.
    But has he Richard? He is the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Every studio is open to him any week he feels like turning up. And he has been mostly silent.
  • Mr. Eagles, ha, I got on slightly slowly so 'only' got 50/1.

    A 101 winner would be something. Nearly half as good as my Verstappen tip ;)

    It would be my biggest ever profit in any sport.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    A comedian Mr Hammond is not.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Hammond is averaging approximately 0.5 laughs per joke so far.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:

    Anazina said:

    In

    Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    It is because he actually understands business. Proper business that is, where you make stuff and sell it, not the Jacob Rees-Mogg variety.
    Hammond is a sensible, measured and sane.
    and also

    Unispiring
    Staid
    Stale
    Boring
    Unimaginative
    Dull
    Reactive
    Cowardly
    Socialist

    The only one I would disagree with there is "socialist". He is a sound money Conservative and has clearly fought hard to ensure that the vast majority of any excess tax revenue is used for deficit reduction.
    He's not cowardly either by any stretch of the imagination. He has shown a lot of backbone in telling things as they are, not as some in the party would like them to be.

    'Dull' I'll grant.
    But has he Richard? He is the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Every studio is open to him any week he feels like turning up. And he has been mostly silent.

    Presumably because he knows what he will be asked.

  • Very mature speech so far from Hammond
  • stodge said:

    In response (from a non-Conservative perspective):

    1) Arguably it's something the Coalition should have resolved but the mood to use legislation within an apparently self-regulating industry wasn't there. Hospitality UK would argue the catering industry is self-regulating but then so (apparently) were people who sold private pensions in the 1980s and early 90s. At what point is self-regulation deemed to have failed and does legislation become the answer?

    [.. snip...]

    There's no hard-and-fast rule. If possible you try self-regulation first, which is what has happened in respect of tips in restaurants. It has partially worked, but not completely.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,958
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    Hunt's prison point was fine, his comparison to the USSR inadvisable
    His prison point was facile.

    If he wanted to make a point about the integrity of the United Kingdom, about its importance to the UK, in the same way that the integrity of the SM is important to the EU then he should have said just that. Not ruined a good point with nonsense about prisons and the Soviet Union.

    There is nothing wrong, in principle, with leaving the EU provided the country is willing to live with the consequences of so doing.

    What is wrong is leaving but expecting there to be no consequences and then blaming others for the fact that the country's position will be different outside an organisation to what it was inside.

    Even if you assume the absolute worst about the EU's approach to a departing member, all of this was pretty much foreseeable - or ought to have been - by those keenest on Brexit. And ought to have been prepared for. The EU's approach may be utterly regrettable but it was not - and is not - in our power to change. But the UK - if it was serious about Brexit - should have been prepared for the consequences of its decision, both good and ill. It is utterly childish to expect to make decisions and then moan about the consequences.

    The Brexiteers in government have been utterly childish throughout this process, are continuing to be so and it is a shame that Hunt, who appeared to be vaguely sane and seemed to be doing good things on his recent trip to the Far East, is joining them.

    He wants to be the Tory leader. He knows his audience. He has no interest in anything beyond that. He is not alone, of course.

    I really don't think he does know his audience, if he thinks that is what it takes to get members' votes....
    It was designed to capture the Boris fans; the closest parallel is Johnson's "punishment beatings".
    Boris is full-fat Brexit. From a herd of Guernseys.

    Hunt's Brexit is skimmed. Probably goats milk.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    TGOHF said:

    Anazina said:

    In

    Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    It is because he actually understands business. Proper business that is, where you make stuff and sell it, not the Jacob Rees-Mogg variety.
    Hammond is a sensible, measured and sane.
    and also

    Unispiring
    Staid
    Stale
    Boring
    Unimaginative
    Dull
    Reactive
    Cowardly
    Socialist

    The only one I would disagree with there is "socialist". He is a sound money Conservative and has clearly fought hard to ensure that the vast majority of any excess tax revenue is used for deficit reduction.
    He's not cowardly either by any stretch of the imagination. He has shown a lot of backbone in telling things as they are, not as some in the party would like them to be.

    'Dull' I'll grant.
    But has he Richard? He is the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Every studio is open to him any week he feels like turning up. And he has been mostly silent.

    Presumably because he knows what he will be asked.

    Yes and one of the things missing off that list is loyal. He has been loyal to May even when she was being a bit of a shit towards him.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    Utter nonsense from Hammond. The moment the EU have an issue with something we take it off the table, even though they don’t actually need it, but it is fine for the EU to continually demand things that they know are totally against the UKs red lines.

    All he knows about negotiation is how to surrender. Not an issue since he wants the EU to force us to stay in the EEA despite the fact it is against Government policy.

    He must be so mad that Boris is leading the polls to be the next PM and he doesn’t even rate a mention. That is because Hammond is as talentless as he is dishonest.

    What do you mean "we"? Australia is not involved in these negotiations.

    :):):)

    Someone had to say it. I must admit I find the daily spectacle of Union Jacked British Nationalists opining on their preferred form of extreme Brexit from their safe house in Australia utterly unedifying.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762
    Dadge said:
    Talk about incentivising your politicians to get on the take.....
  • Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    Utter nonsense from Hammond. The moment the EU have an issue with something we take it off the table, even though they don’t actually need it, but it is fine for the EU to continually demand things that they know are totally against the UKs red lines.

    All he knows about negotiation is how to surrender. Not an issue since he wants the EU to force us to stay in the EEA despite the fact it is against Government policy.

    He must be so mad that Boris is leading the polls to be the next PM and he doesn’t even rate a mention. That is because Hammond is as talentless as he is dishonest.
    You aren't a negotiator are you...

    The EU Red Lines existed before our red lines. The EU Red Lines protect an actual position rather than one we have arbitrarily drawn. The EU cannot give ground on the four freedoms. We can.

    To continue to make proposals so far beyond the other side's red line is to demonstrate that you cannot negotiate. To then stomp feet and complain the EU aren't showing respect is the same doubly so.
  • archer101auarcher101au Posts: 1,612

    Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    Utter nonsense from Hammond. The moment the EU have an issue with something we take it off the table, even though they don’t actually need it, but it is fine for the EU to continually demand things that they know are totally against the UKs red lines.

    All he knows about negotiation is how to surrender. Not an issue since he wants the EU to force us to stay in the EEA despite the fact it is against Government policy.

    He must be so mad that Boris is leading the polls to be the next PM and he doesn’t even rate a mention. That is because Hammond is as talentless as he is dishonest.

    What do you mean "we"? Australia is not involved in these negotiations.

    I accused you of being Theresa May’s jokewriter. I was wrong. You clearly work for Hammond.
  • Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    Utter nonsense from Hammond. The moment the EU have an issue with something we take it off the table, even though they don’t actually need it, but it is fine for the EU to continually demand things that they know are totally against the UKs red lines.

    All he knows about negotiation is how to surrender. Not an issue since he wants the EU to force us to stay in the EEA despite the fact it is against Government policy.

    He must be so mad that Boris is leading the polls to be the next PM and he doesn’t even rate a mention. That is because Hammond is as talentless as he is dishonest.

    What do you mean "we"? Australia is not involved in these negotiations.

    I accused you of being Theresa May’s jokewriter. I was wrong. You clearly work for Hammond.

    No, I work in a British company in the UK. Unlike you.

  • If we had seen more of this at the last GE TM would have won her majority
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    Hunt's prison point was fine, his comparison to the USSR inadvisable
    His prison point was facile.

    If he wanted to make a point about the integrity of the United Kingdom, about its importance to the UK, in the same way that the integrity of the SM is important to the EU then he should have said just that. Not ruined a good point with nonsense about prisons and the Soviet Union.

    There is nothing wrong, in principle, with leaving the EU provided the country is willing to live with the consequences of so doing.

    What is wrong is leaving but expecting there to be no consequences and then blaming others for the fact that the country's position will be different outside an organisation to what it was inside.

    Even if you assume the absolute worst about the EU's approach to a departing member, all of this was pretty much foreseeable - or ought to have been - by those keenest on Brexit. And ought to have been prepared for. The EU's approach may be utterly regrettable but it was not - and is not - in our power to change. But the UK - if it was serious about Brexit - should have been prepared for the consequences of its decision, both good and ill. It is utterly childish to expect to make decisions and then moan about the consequences.

    The Brexiteers in government have been utterly childish throughout this process, are continuing to be so and it is a shame that Hunt, who appeared to be vaguely sane and seemed to be doing good things on his recent trip to the Far East, is joining them.

    He wants to be the Tory leader. He knows his audience. He has no interest in anything beyond that. He is not alone, of course.

    I really don't think he does know his audience, if he thinks that is what it takes to get members' votes....
    It was designed to capture the Boris fans; the closest parallel is Johnson's "punishment beatings".
    Boris is full-fat Brexit. From a herd of Guernseys.

    Hunt's Brexit is skimmed. Probably goats milk.
    And May's is soya. Surprisingly good shelf life but tastes disgusting.
  • Anazina said:

    Hammond may well be the reincarnation of the Spitting Image John Major puppet (grey, dull, uninteresting). But he isn't wrong:

    "It isn’t about taking back control, it’s about fantasy world. The European Union have been very clear that as they negotiate with us they have their red lines, just as we have our red lines, and they are not prepared to negotiate for a free trade agreement which includes the whole of the United Kingdom because of the impact that would have on the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland.

    We can spend our time sitting at a table, banging it and demanding something that our negotiating partners have clearly told us is not on offer, or we can try to find a way through with a solution that works for Britain and will also be acceptable to them within their red lines." (Good Morning Britain interview)

    He speaks facts and practised negotiation strategy. No wonder so many Tories hate him.

    Utter nonsense from Hammond. The moment the EU have an issue with something we take it off the table, even though they don’t actually need it, but it is fine for the EU to continually demand things that they know are totally against the UKs red lines.

    All he knows about negotiation is how to surrender. Not an issue since he wants the EU to force us to stay in the EEA despite the fact it is against Government policy.

    He must be so mad that Boris is leading the polls to be the next PM and he doesn’t even rate a mention. That is because Hammond is as talentless as he is dishonest.

    What do you mean "we"? Australia is not involved in these negotiations.

    :):):)

    Someone had to say it. I must admit I find the daily spectacle of Union Jacked British Nationalists opining on their preferred form of extreme Brexit from their safe house in Australia utterly unedifying.

    English Nationalists. But, yes, I agree.

  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    If we had seen more of this at the last GE TM would have won her majority

    LOL yeah, lightbulb analogies would've got people rushing to tick the Tory box.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038
    justin124 said:

    matt said:




    Mr. NorthWales, I noticed that. Crass and self-absorbed effort to try and give broadcasters the whip hand, and the numbers are pretty damned small.

    Televised election debates are here to stay. An independent commission would seem an appropriate way to manage it and if the wave is coming is better to try and ride it.
    They have not arrived in a fixed given format. No consistency at al between the elections of 2010, 2015 and 2017. That fact alone makes it easier for party leaders to be obstructive should it suit them at a particular time.
    What we saw at the last election was that a "party leader being obstructive" meant a percentage-point drop in support.

    At future elections there will be debates. Leaders will participate in them. The only question is whether they'll be organised by the TV stations or by eg. the Electoral Commission. And it hardly matters which.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    If we had seen more of this at the last GE TM would have won her majority

    It was May who marginalised Hammond
  • If we had seen more of this at the last GE TM would have won her majority

    It was May who marginalised Hammond
    I accept that
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Customers as well as staff are being ripped off when restaurant owners pocket the tips given. Restaurant owners have been given years to get their houses in order on this. This is a small bit of populism that seems decent enough to me.

    +1

    The approach I generally take is to ask serving staff if they get all the tip. If not, get restaurants to remove ‘service charges’ from the bill and tip in cash.
    I once received a bill which was a bit more than I'd mentally totted my meal to... removed the 15% service charge from a bill and didn't leave a tip. Told the manager "£8 for two small cokes, that's your tip within the bill".
    'Enforced tipping' is an unwelcome US import in my opinion.
    Round these parts a pint of Coke is often the around the price of a pint of beer. Which is bonkers.

    Lime and Soda is much more refreshing and far cheaper!
    It was ~ 2011 in London, had never seen such cheek on a bill before.
    I can well imagine.

    Was in my old favourite Uni haunt last week, the Kings Arms; some chap ordered a pint of fizzy lager and it was over a fiver. Staggering....
    My son has just started at Dundee uni. He’s only paying £1.90 a pint on nights out. That compares to £5 a pint at home in Edinburgh. Result!
    I presume that this is at the Student Union? I don't think you will find many pubs in the town offering beer at those prices. I certainly don't.
    That’s what I thought - but no, it’s in a pub. I don’t know which though.
    Fresher's week deal? Beer in Dundee is cheaper than Edinburgh but £3.50 a pint is usually a minimum in my experience.

    I still remember that a pint of Kronenbourg at the Birmingham students union in 1983 - my first year - was 60 pence.

    A pint of porter was widely available throughout the Black Country for 1 and 3/4 old pence, back in 1911.

    https://www.bclm.co.uk/media/learning/library/witr_costofliving1910.pdf
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    If we had seen more of this at the last GE TM would have won her majority

    It was May who marginalised Hammond
    The media marginalised him, as they do with literally every politician bar the party leaders, and the odd 'colourful character' (Boris Johnson, Diane Abbott).

    George Osborne got only slightly more media coverage in either the 2010 or 2015 campaigns, than Hammond did in 2017.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Eagles, although with a much lower return, it'd be one of my best too.

    I'd prefer Mordaunt, though. Got on her at 81.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,881
    Sort of on-topic, I just finished the shoemaker and his daughter. Would highly recommend for those interested in a fascinating personal story about one (Armenian) family's experience of the Soviet Union.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,545

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Customers as well as staff are being ripped off when restaurant owners pocket the tips given. Restaurant owners have been given years to get their houses in order on this. This is a small bit of populism that seems decent enough to me.

    +1

    The approach I generally take is to ask serving staff if they get all the tip. If not, get restaurants to remove ‘service charges’ from the bill and tip in cash.
    I once received a bill which was a bit more than I'd mentally totted my meal to... removed the 15% service charge from a bill and didn't leave a tip. Told the manager "£8 for two small cokes, that's your tip within the bill".
    'Enforced tipping' is an unwelcome US import in my opinion.
    Round these parts a pint of Coke is often the around the price of a pint of beer. Which is bonkers.

    Lime and Soda is much more refreshing and far cheaper!
    It was ~ 2011 in London, had never seen such cheek on a bill before.
    I can well imagine.

    Was in my old favourite Uni haunt last week, the Kings Arms; some chap ordered a pint of fizzy lager and it was over a fiver. Staggering....
    My son has just started at Dundee uni. He’s only paying £1.90 a pint on nights out. That compares to £5 a pint at home in Edinburgh. Result!
    I presume that this is at the Student Union? I don't think you will find many pubs in the town offering beer at those prices. I certainly don't.
    That’s what I thought - but no, it’s in a pub. I don’t know which though.
    Fresher's week deal? Beer in Dundee is cheaper than Edinburgh but £3.50 a pint is usually a minimum in my experience.

    I still remember that a pint of Kronenbourg at the Birmingham students union in 1983 - my first year - was 60 pence.

    I went to Uni, as we didn't call it then, in 1977. Beer 25p a pint, fags, 45p for 20.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    Yep. The Hammond Organ might not be the most exciting of instruments, but it plays a soothing tune.
  • TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    I have had my doubts about him but this is impressive.
  • Anazina said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Customers as well as staff are being ripped off when restaurant owners pocket the tips given. Restaurant owners have been given years to get their houses in order on this. This is a small bit of populism that seems decent enough to me.

    +1

    The approach I generally take is to ask serving staff if they get all the tip. If not, get restaurants to remove ‘service charges’ from the bill and tip in cash.
    I once received a bill which was a bit more than I'd mentally totted my meal to... removed the 15% service charge from a bill and didn't leave a tip. Told the manager "£8 for two small cokes, that's your tip within the bill".
    'Enforced tipping' is an unwelcome US import in my opinion.
    Round these parts a pint of Coke is often the around the price of a pint of beer. Which is bonkers.

    Lime and Soda is much more refreshing and far cheaper!
    It was ~ 2011 in London, had never seen such cheek on a bill before.
    I can well imagine.

    Was in my old favourite Uni haunt last week, the Kings Arms; some chap ordered a pint of fizzy lager and it was over a fiver. Staggering....
    My son has just started at Dundee uni. He’s only paying £1.90 a pint on nights out. That compares to £5 a pint at home in Edinburgh. Result!
    I presume that this is at the Student Union? I don't think you will find many pubs in the town offering beer at those prices. I certainly don't.
    That’s what I thought - but no, it’s in a pub. I don’t know which though.
    Fresher's week deal? Beer in Dundee is cheaper than Edinburgh but £3.50 a pint is usually a minimum in my experience.

    I still remember that a pint of Kronenbourg at the Birmingham students union in 1983 - my first year - was 60 pence.

    A pint of porter was widely available throughout the Black Country for 1 and 3/4 old pence, back in 1911.

    https://www.bclm.co.uk/media/learning/library/witr_costofliving1910.pdf

    Mild was what everyone drank in the Black Country when I was in those parts - they did a lovely pint at Molineux (though never say Brum is in the Black Country, of course!).

  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,393

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Customers as well as staff are being ripped off when restaurant owners pocket the tips given. Restaurant owners have been given years to get their houses in order on this. This is a small bit of populism that seems decent enough to me.

    +1

    The approach I generally take is to ask serving staff if they get all the tip. If not, get restaurants to remove ‘service charges’ from the bill and tip in cash.
    I once received a bill which was a bit more than I'd mentally totted my meal to... removed the 15% service charge from a bill and didn't leave a tip. Told the manager "£8 for two small cokes, that's your tip within the bill".
    'Enforced tipping' is an unwelcome US import in my opinion.
    Round these parts a pint of Coke is often the around the price of a pint of beer. Which is bonkers.

    Lime and Soda is much more refreshing and far cheaper!
    It was ~ 2011 in London, had never seen such cheek on a bill before.
    I can well imagine.

    Was in my old favourite Uni haunt last week, the Kings Arms; some chap ordered a pint of fizzy lager and it was over a fiver. Staggering....
    My son has just started at Dundee uni. He’s only paying £1.90 a pint on nights out. That compares to £5 a pint at home in Edinburgh. Result!
    I presume that this is at the Student Union? I don't think you will find many pubs in the town offering beer at those prices. I certainly don't.
    That’s what I thought - but no, it’s in a pub. I don’t know which though.
    Fresher's week deal? Beer in Dundee is cheaper than Edinburgh but £3.50 a pint is usually a minimum in my experience.

    I still remember that a pint of Kronenbourg at the Birmingham students union in 1983 - my first year - was 60 pence.

    We must have overlapped - I started at Birmingham in 1985. However, I was drinking pints of mild or bottles of Newcastle Brown.

    I remember going to a pub at Five Ways one lunchtime where the lunchtime deal was 35p a pint. Same price as a bag of chips from the chippy round the corner.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    HYUFD said:

    Alistair said:

    HYUFD said:


    Labour won under 30s in 1987 and 1992, those voters are now in their 50s. Had those voters still been voting Labour and not voted Tory in 2017 Corbyn would be in No 10

    What percentage of under 30s votes in 1987 vs now? Maybe all the people. Who voted Labour then still do.
    As I said most under 30s then who voted voted Labour, most vote Tory now
    Dura_Ace said:

    Hunt's USSR comparison was toss because it's not leaving the EU we're having difficulty with; that would be very easy. It's trying to get some of the benefits of membership from the outside.

    Having said that it doesn't matter if it's right or wrong because it's aimed at the Werther's Original suckling legions of the tory membership. Wherein, I assume, it found a receptive if urine scented audience.

    It’s inadvisable and a sign of bad character to make personal attacks on your political opponents. But if you have to do it, that’s a very funny one.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Tapes of Mogadon Phil's speech should be available in GPs surgeries as a first-line treatment for insomnia.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Dadge said:

    justin124 said:

    matt said:




    Mr. NorthWales, I noticed that. Crass and self-absorbed effort to try and give broadcasters the whip hand, and the numbers are pretty damned small.

    Televised election debates are here to stay. An independent commission would seem an appropriate way to manage it and if the wave is coming is better to try and ride it.
    They have not arrived in a fixed given format. No consistency at al between the elections of 2010, 2015 and 2017. That fact alone makes it easier for party leaders to be obstructive should it suit them at a particular time.
    What we saw at the last election was that a "party leader being obstructive" meant a percentage-point drop in support.

    At future elections there will be debates. Leaders will participate in them. The only question is whether they'll be organised by the TV stations or by eg. the Electoral Commission. And it hardly matters which.
    The point is that there is no agreed format based on precedent. That opens the door to haggling between the parties and a failure to agree anything.
    There would also be the further issue next time as whether the smaller parties should be included given their poor performance in 2017. The LibDems could be particularly vulnerable- having done badly at both the 2015 and 2017 elections. No reasonable basis to justify giving them coverage to match Labour and the Tories - unlike in 2010. UKIP did well in terms of vote share in 2015 but collapsed in 2017. The Greens fell back sharply in 2017.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038
    Evolution over revolution.

    Clever from Hammond.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    I have had my doubts about him but this is impressive.
    I for one am all for #Hammond4Leader
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Danny565 said:

    If we had seen more of this at the last GE TM would have won her majority

    It was May who marginalised Hammond
    The media marginalised him, as they do with literally every politician bar the party leaders, and the odd 'colourful character' (Boris Johnson, Diane Abbott).

    George Osborne got only slightly more media coverage in either the 2010 or 2015 campaigns, than Hammond did in 2017.
    Sure he was never going to be getting huge amounts of airtime, but they could definitely have gotten his face on TV more if they had wanted to. And he was also marginalised behind the scenes
  • That was one very good speech
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762
    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    Yep. The Hammond Organ might not be the most exciting of instruments, but it plays a soothing tune.
    Where's @Ydoethur when you need him. So many possibilities there.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,933
    Mr. Pete, surely Horlicks Hammond?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164

    Evolution over revolution.

    Clever from Hammond.

    He's Tony Hayers and I claim my £5.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    Only if all LDs and lots of Labour Remainers moved to the Tories and no Tory Leavers moved to UKIP
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    DavidL said:

    Anazina said:

    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    Yep. The Hammond Organ might not be the most exciting of instruments, but it plays a soothing tune.
    Where's @Ydoethur when you need him. So many possibilities there.
    https://twitter.com/iainjwatson/status/1046719829154115584
  • HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    Only if all LDs and lots of Labour Remainers moved to the Tories and no Tory Leavers moved to UKIP
    Think it was a joke !!!!
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762

    Danny565 said:

    If we had seen more of this at the last GE TM would have won her majority

    It was May who marginalised Hammond
    The media marginalised him, as they do with literally every politician bar the party leaders, and the odd 'colourful character' (Boris Johnson, Diane Abbott).

    George Osborne got only slightly more media coverage in either the 2010 or 2015 campaigns, than Hammond did in 2017.
    Sure he was never going to be getting huge amounts of airtime, but they could definitely have gotten his face on TV more if they had wanted to. And he was also marginalised behind the scenes
    Pushing him up front and central would have made the economy and the (mainly) sensible plans of the Tories a part of the debate. Instead the economy (arguably the Tory's best single card) was neglected and Labour's fantasy "we'll just cancel all the debts and pay for it by taxing someone yet to be identified in Canary Wharf" got a free pass.
  • DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Customers as well as staff are being ripped off when restaurant owners pocket the tips given. Restaurant owners have been given years to get their houses in order on this. This is a small bit of populism that seems decent enough to me.

    +1

    The approach I generally take is to ask serving staff if they get all the tip. If not, get restaurants to remove ‘service charges’ from the bill and tip in cash.
    I once received a bill which was a bit more than I'd mentally totted my meal to... removed the 15% service charge from a bill and didn't leave a tip. Told the manager "£8 for two small cokes, that's your tip within the bill".
    'Enforced tipping' is an unwelcome US import in my opinion.
    Round these parts a pint of Coke is often the around the price of a pint of beer. Which is bonkers.

    Lime and Soda is much more refreshing and far cheaper!
    It was ~ 2011 in London, had never seen such cheek on a bill before.
    I can well imagine.

    Was in my old favourite Uni haunt last week, the Kings Arms; some chap ordered a pint of fizzy lager and it was over a fiver. Staggering....
    My son has just started at Dundee uni. He’s only paying £1.90 a pint on nights out. That compares to £5 a pint at home in Edinburgh. Result!
    I presume that this is at the Student Union? I don't think you will find many pubs in the town offering beer at those prices. I certainly don't.
    That’s what I thought - but no, it’s in a pub. I don’t know which though.
    Fresher's week deal? Beer in Dundee is cheaper than Edinburgh but £3.50 a pint is usually a minimum in my experience.

    I still remember that a pint of Kronenbourg at the Birmingham students union in 1983 - my first year - was 60 pence.

    I went to Uni, as we didn't call it then, in 1977. Beer 25p a pint, fags, 45p for 20.

    When I lived in Spain back in the late 80s, the exchange rate was around 200 pesetas to the pound. With 1,000 pesetas, you could get 20 Fortuna and nine bottles of San Miguel. Dangerous times.

  • stodgestodge Posts: 12,741

    That was one very good speech

    So that's Hunt, Raab and Hammond who have all made excellent speeches according to your good self.

    That likes Javid and May but has the bar been raised too high already? To be fair, after her catastrophic effort, simply standing up and reading pages from the Maidenhead phone book without coughing would be an improvement from the Prime Minister.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    Stocky said:

    "True Johnson now tops the regular next leader “surveys” at the hardline pro-Brexit website ConservativeHome but how representative of the membership is that?"

    I thought that the ConservativeHome monthly was a survey of a sample of the whole membership. But Mike implies that this cannot be relied upon as a true guide?

    ConHome surveys are not polls where a representative sample is used.
    ConHome Surveys of Tory members tend to match Yougov surveys of Tory members and ConHome got the 2005 Tory leadership result spot on, the last time members were consulted
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038

    That was one very good speech

    Back in the running?

    He has given up on being leader one of the papers said at the weekend.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    If we had seen more of this at the last GE TM would have won her majority

    It was May who marginalised Hammond
    Rightly after the pigs ear he made of the April budget pre election.

    He's a competent middle manager - not PM or CoTE.

  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited October 2018
    DavidL said:

    Danny565 said:

    If we had seen more of this at the last GE TM would have won her majority

    It was May who marginalised Hammond
    The media marginalised him, as they do with literally every politician bar the party leaders, and the odd 'colourful character' (Boris Johnson, Diane Abbott).

    George Osborne got only slightly more media coverage in either the 2010 or 2015 campaigns, than Hammond did in 2017.
    Sure he was never going to be getting huge amounts of airtime, but they could definitely have gotten his face on TV more if they had wanted to. And he was also marginalised behind the scenes
    Pushing him up front and central would have made the economy and the (mainly) sensible plans of the Tories a part of the debate. Instead the economy (arguably the Tory's best single card) was neglected and Labour's fantasy "we'll just cancel all the debts and pay for it by taxing someone yet to be identified in Canary Wharf" got a free pass.
    But surely it's not within a party's control who is "front and centre" in a modern election campaign - it largely depends on who the media wants, doesn't it?

    Plus, as a matter of strategy, I think you're overlooking that your traditionally Tory "it's the economy stupid"/"don't take a risk"/"the sums don't add up" strategy failed when the Remain Campaign tried it.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Scott_P said:
    Hunt's prison point was fine, his comparison to the USSR inadvisable
    His prison point was facile.

    If he wanted to make a point about the integrity of the United Kingdom, about its importance to the UK, in the same way that the integrity of the SM is important to the EU then he should have said just that. Not ruined a good point with nonsense about prisons and the Soviet Union.

    There is nothing wrong, in principle, with leaving the EU provided the country is willing to live with the consequences of so doing.

    What is wrong is leaving but expecting there to be no consequences and then blaming others for the fact that the country's position will be different outside an organisation to what it was inside.

    Even if you assume the absolute worst about the EU's approach to a departing member, all of this was pretty much foreseeable - or ought to have been - by those keenest on Brexit. And ought to have been prepared for. The EU's approach may be utterly regrettable but it was not - and is not - in our power to change. But the UK - if it was serious about Brexit - should have been prepared for the consequences of its decision, both good and ill. It is utterly childish to expect to make decisions and then moan about the consequences.

    The Brexiteers in government have been utterly childish throughout this process, are continuing to be so and it is a shame that Hunt, who appeared to be vaguely sane and seemed to be doing good things on his recent trip to the Far East, is joining them.

    He wants to be the Tory leader. He knows his audience. He has no interest in anything beyond that. He is not alone, of course.

    I really don't think he does know his audience, if he thinks that is what it takes to get members' votes....
    It was designed to capture the Boris fans; the closest parallel is Johnson's "punishment beatings".
    Boris is full-fat Brexit. From a herd of Guernseys.

    Past its sell-by date, and increasingly sour.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,571
    TGOHF said:

    If we had seen more of this at the last GE TM would have won her majority

    It was May who marginalised Hammond
    Rightly after the pigs ear he made of the April budget pre election.

    He's a competent middle manager - not PM or CoTE.

    A competent middle manager would be a vast improvement on the current incumbent, and most of the alternatives.
  • Hammond from his speech talking about Labour: "Run out of money? Just borrow more."

    He'd know. £800bn in borrowing in 8 years. Borrowed and burned as front line services get cut to the bone.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    Danny565 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    I have had my doubts about him but this is impressive.
    I for one am all for #Hammond4Leader
    He is several strata of intelligence higher than most of our political class nowadays. As I have said before, 'exciting' personalities and wit are vastly overrated qualities in politics.
  • stodge said:

    That was one very good speech

    So that's Hunt, Raab and Hammond who have all made excellent speeches according to your good self.

    That likes Javid and May but has the bar been raised too high already? To be fair, after her catastrophic effort, simply standing up and reading pages from the Maidenhead phone book without coughing would be an improvement from the Prime Minister.
    They were good speeches and I am not a Hammond fan but I am so pleased he has his hands on the country's purse
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    Anazina said:

    Danny565 said:

    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    I have had my doubts about him but this is impressive.
    I for one am all for #Hammond4Leader
    He is several strata of intelligence higher than most of our political class nowadays. As I have said before, 'exciting' personalities and wit are vastly overrated qualities in politics.
    You should avoid confusing dullness for competence.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Phil Hammond live now

    Four words to conjure up a mood of eldritch dread in any heart.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    HYUFD said:

    TOPPING said:

    Bloody hell if Hammo was in charge and no Brexit the Cons would be ahead by 100 pts (rounded up as I’m sure Diane, John and Jeremy would continue to vote Labour).

    If, if, if....

    Only if all LDs and lots of Labour Remainers moved to the Tories and no Tory Leavers moved to UKIP
    That is very true, HYUFD, that is very true. Also, I think Mrs Babcock of No.73 The Avenue, Hythe, might not move to vote for the Tories either.
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,545

    Evolution over revolution.

    Clever from Hammond.

    True. But with Brexit the Tories have chosen revolution.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    edited October 2018

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mortimer said:

    Customers as well as staff are being ripped off when restaurant owners pocket the tips given. Restaurant owners have been given years to get their houses in order on this. This is a small bit of populism that seems decent enough to me.

    +1

    The approach I generally take is to ask serving staff if they get all the tip. If not, get restaurants to remove ‘service charges’ from the bill and tip in cash.
    I once received a bill which was a bit more than I'd mentally totted my meal to... removed the 15% service charge from a bill and didn't leave a tip. Told the manager "£8 for two small cokes, that's your tip within the bill".
    'Enforced tipping' is an unwelcome US import in my opinion.
    Round these parts a pint of Coke is often the around the price of a pint of beer. Which is bonkers.

    Lime and Soda is much more refreshing and far cheaper!
    It was ~ 2011 in London, had never seen such cheek on a bill before.
    I can well imagine.

    Was in my old favourite Uni haunt last week, the Kings Arms; some chap ordered a pint of fizzy lager and it was over a fiver. Staggering....
    My son has just started at Dundee uni. He’s only paying £1.90 a pint on nights out. That compares to £5 a pint at home in Edinburgh. Result!
    I presume that this is at the Student Union? I don't think you will find many pubs in the town offering beer at those prices. I certainly don't.
    That’s what I thought - but no, it’s in a pub. I don’t know which though.
    Fresher's week deal? Beer in Dundee is cheaper than Edinburgh but £3.50 a pint is usually a minimum in my experience.

    I still remember that a pint of Kronenbourg at the Birmingham students union in 1983 - my first year - was 60 pence.

    I went to Uni, as we didn't call it then, in 1977. Beer 25p a pint, fags, 45p for 20.
    Pricey.

    You could buy a full steak dinner, with bread AND beer, and still have enough left to tip the waitress for just one shilling... back in 1800.

    http://footguards.tripod.com/08HISTORY/08_costofliving.htm
  • HYUFD said:

    Stocky said:

    "True Johnson now tops the regular next leader “surveys” at the hardline pro-Brexit website ConservativeHome but how representative of the membership is that?"

    I thought that the ConservativeHome monthly was a survey of a sample of the whole membership. But Mike implies that this cannot be relied upon as a true guide?

    ConHome surveys are not polls where a representative sample is used.
    ConHome Surveys of Tory members tend to match Yougov surveys of Tory members and ConHome got the 2005 Tory leadership result spot on, the last time members were consulted
    You need to understand it is conservative voters that matter and members do not reflect the wider conservative support
This discussion has been closed.