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    Mr. Divvie, interesting stats. It does read a bit like the old formulation "I am in favour of higher taxes to fund public spending" where the taxes fall on other people, and the spending is on services the individual wants.

    You can never go wrong by assuming cake-ism will be popular.
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    This ties in with what others have been saying about European car makers betting the farm on diesel and ignoring electric cars while the Asian ones have been investing heavily in battery technology.
    I think it's more a story about the importance of proximity and regional hubs in manufacturing. They've made the decision to be close to their existing facilities in Singapore and Malaysia.
    I should probably have read the full story shouldn’t I?

    Dyson as many companies has followed the route it knows best. Singapore is not a good place to manufacture cars. Too expensive and short of skilled workers. It also has no basis of car manufacture. It is however close to the Asian market which is probably a better place to start than Europe for Dyson and close to his existing supplier base. If long term Dyson wants to break into Europe or USA then expect a new plant in that region. This is not a Brexit story.

    The one thing that it does show is that the idea that we will shift the products we manufacture from sales to Europe to global is already dead whatever trade deals we sign. Services and high end products sell globally but most bulk products are being produced closer to the end markets.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Mr. Eagles, be interesting to know if said polling included a definition of the customs union and that we couldn't make our own trade deals if we were a member.

    It upholds the vote, and is the plan of both Corbyn and May (Permanent vs indefinite).
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    That Tweet from Stewart Jackson is, quite simply, unbelievable.
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    That Tweet from Stewart Jackson is, quite simply, unbelievable.

    It's sadly too believable :(
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Divvie, I mostly agree, but some people won't even like cake. There's always one.

    Mr. Pulpstar, I suspect a great many people would disagree with that.
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    Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060
    edited October 2018

    That Tweet from Stewart Jackson is, quite simply, unbelievable.

    No, I believe it.

    It shows once again the wisdom of David Cameron’s dictum.

    Edit: by believe it, I mean I believe he said it, not that he was correct.
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    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited October 2018
    In other news China has built a 35 mile bridge to connect Hong Kong to mainland China. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-45937924

    Yet Boris is 'bonkers' for thinking we should invest in a bridge to connect GB to Ireland or France.

    The paucity of ambition for investment in infrastructure in our country compared to China shows why they will soon outclass us in all ways including ultimately per capita and not just on gross terms. The future is Chinese while we naval gaze wondering whether to build a new railway line or runway after decades.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Seems slightly surprising, but I'm sure our legal eagles can offer some insight:
    https://twitter.com/BBCDomC/status/1054665238258290689
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190

    That Tweet from Stewart Jackson is, quite simply, unbelievable.

    I also find it bizarre that someone would politicise their sick child.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Thompson, isn't the Irish bridge problematic due to the immensely deep water and high wind speeds? No idea if the conditions from China to Hong Kong are the same. (Also, China has a lot more cash to spend, and a desire to tighten its grip on Hong Kong).
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    eekeek Posts: 24,980

    Seems slightly surprising, but I'm sure our legal eagles can offer some insight:
    https://twitter.com/BBCDomC/status/1054665238258290689

    This may help explain https://twitter.com/JoshuaRozenberg/status/1054664134988574720
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    I recall a lot of Leavers eagerly tweeting upward movements in the FTSE. No doubt they will be stampeding to tweet this one too:

    https://twitter.com/econbartleby/status/1054654420334579712

    Indeed. From a quick bit of maths I think the inflation-adjusted FTSE100 is now where it was in 1995 and only 60% of where it was at the end of 1999. (That ignores dividend income of course.)
    Excluding either inflation or dividends is not realistic.

    Be interesting to see a divfidend-including, inflation-including analysis.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,097
    edited October 2018

    In other news China has built a 35 mile bridge to connect Hong Kong to mainland China. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-45937924

    Yet Boris is 'bonkers' for thinking we should invest in a bridge to connect GB to Ireland or France.

    The paucity of ambition for investment in infrastructure in our country compared to China shows why they will soon outclass us in all ways including ultimately per capita and not just on gross terms. The future is Chinese while we naval gaze wondering whether to build a new railway line or runway after decades.

    If only NI/Belfast was 'one of the world's most significant financial centres and commercial ports', and a gateway to our our bright global future.

    With 2 huge aircraft carriers for which we can't afford adequate escorts, I agree about the naval gazing (sorry, couldn't resist).
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667

    I recall a lot of Leavers eagerly tweeting upward movements in the FTSE. No doubt they will be stampeding to tweet this one too:

    https://twitter.com/econbartleby/status/1054654420334579712

    Indeed. From a quick bit of maths I think the inflation-adjusted FTSE100 is now where it was in 1995 and only 60% of where it was at the end of 1999. (That ignores dividend income of course.)
    Excluding either inflation or dividends is not realistic.

    Be interesting to see a divfidend-including, inflation-including analysis.
    It would. Let's hope someone with more time or a bigger spreadsheet than me can help. :smile:
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    This ties in with what others have been saying about European car makers betting the farm on diesel and ignoring electric cars while the Asian ones have been investing heavily in battery technology.
    I think it's more a story about the importance of proximity and regional hubs in manufacturing. They've made the decision to be close to their existing facilities in Singapore and Malaysia.
    I should probably have read the full story shouldn’t I?

    Dyson as many companies has followed the route it knows best. Singapore is not a good place to manufacture cars. Too expensive and short of skilled workers. It also has no basis of car manufacture. It is however close to the Asian market which is probably a better place to start than Europe for Dyson and close to his existing supplier base. If long term Dyson wants to break into Europe or USA then expect a new plant in that region. This is not a Brexit story.

    The one thing that it does show is that the idea that we will shift the products we manufacture from sales to Europe to global is already dead whatever trade deals we sign. Services and high end products sell globally but most bulk products are being produced closer to the end markets.
    Except isn't the value in services and high end products. In which case improving our share globally could be well worth it.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    edited October 2018

    Mr. Pulpstar, I suspect a great many people would disagree with that.

    The vote clearly said about "leaving the European union". The spirit of the vote was overwhemingly about reducing immigration. Note Corbyn did not mention the single market/continued freedom of movement in his reply yesterday - and May's talk was of a transition custom territory, which in practice and effect would be identical to Corbyn's customs union till a solution to the Irish border could be found (In practice this means the DUP not holding the balance of power).
    People don't really care about tariffs too much, unless they're paying them !
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    I recall a lot of Leavers eagerly tweeting upward movements in the FTSE. No doubt they will be stampeding to tweet this one too:

    https://twitter.com/econbartleby/status/1054654420334579712

    Indeed. From a quick bit of maths I think the inflation-adjusted FTSE100 is now where it was in 1995 and only 60% of where it was at the end of 1999. (That ignores dividend income of course.)
    Excluding either inflation or dividends is not realistic.

    Be interesting to see a divfidend-including, inflation-including analysis.
    It would. Let's hope someone with more time or a bigger spreadsheet than me can help. :smile:
    Than me too lol!
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    This ties in with what others have been saying about European car makers betting the farm on diesel and ignoring electric cars while the Asian ones have been investing heavily in battery technology.

    It also ties in with Dyson wanting to be close by his major markets and supply chains. Isn't one of the big Brexiteer arguments that in this day and age proximity is no longer important?

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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,667
    tlg86 said:

    That Tweet from Stewart Jackson is, quite simply, unbelievable.

    I also find it bizarre that someone would politicise their sick child.

    We don't know that do we? The child may have genuinely been upset at missing the march and suggested the photo to his parents.
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    I recall a lot of Leavers eagerly tweeting upward movements in the FTSE. No doubt they will be stampeding to tweet this one too:

    https://twitter.com/econbartleby/status/1054654420334579712

    Indeed. From a quick bit of maths I think the inflation-adjusted FTSE100 is now where it was in 1995 and only 60% of where it was at the end of 1999. (That ignores dividend income of course.)
    Excluding either inflation or dividends is not realistic.

    Be interesting to see a divfidend-including, inflation-including analysis.
    It would. Let's hope someone with more time or a bigger spreadsheet than me can help. :smile:
    On a five year basis the FTSE 100 has returned a nominal 5% p.a. or so I believe.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,063

    The future is Chinese while we naval gaze wondering whether to build a new railway line or runway after decades.

    Or waste time retreating into a ghetto of sentimentality instead of embracing a leading role in European integration.
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    tlg86 said:

    That Tweet from Stewart Jackson is, quite simply, unbelievable.

    I also find it bizarre that someone would politicise their sick child.
    There are ways to express that without using the word cretin.
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    In other news China has built a 35 mile bridge to connect Hong Kong to mainland China. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-45937924

    Yet Boris is 'bonkers' for thinking we should invest in a bridge to connect GB to Ireland or France.

    The paucity of ambition for investment in infrastructure in our country compared to China shows why they will soon outclass us in all ways including ultimately per capita and not just on gross terms. The future is Chinese while we naval gaze wondering whether to build a new railway line or runway after decades.

    The project cost $20bn dollars and 18 lives. It probably ranks up there with the Montreal Olympics in terms of White Elephants.

    I'm all for infrastructure spending, but throwing money at daft projects like a bridge between Scotland and Northern Ireland just takes money away from the projects we really need like a decent road between Manchester and Sheffield for starters.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. eek, ah, cheers.

    Shame there wasn't more coverage of the actual gang of rapists, mind.

    Mr. Pulpstar, ha. If you think that's going to persuade hardline Leavers, I fear that optimism has overwhelmed you :)
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    The future is Chinese while we naval gaze wondering whether to build a new railway line or runway after decades.

    Or waste time retreating into a ghetto of sentimentality instead of embracing a leading role in European integration.
    Or retreating into a mawkish obsession with a continent whose best times are behind it while we could be stepping away from Europe and embracing the whole world.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,602

    This ties in with what others have been saying about European car makers betting the farm on diesel and ignoring electric cars while the Asian ones have been investing heavily in battery technology.
    I think it's more a story about the importance of proximity and regional hubs in manufacturing. They've made the decision to be close to their existing facilities in Singapore and Malaysia.
    I should probably have read the full story shouldn’t I?

    Dyson as many companies has followed the route it knows best. Singapore is not a good place to manufacture cars. Too expensive and short of skilled workers. It also has no basis of car manufacture. It is however close to the Asian market which is probably a better place to start than Europe for Dyson and close to his existing supplier base. If long term Dyson wants to break into Europe or USA then expect a new plant in that region. This is not a Brexit story.

    The one thing that it does show is that the idea that we will shift the products we manufacture from sales to Europe to global is already dead whatever trade deals we sign. Services and high end products sell globally but most bulk products are being produced closer to the end markets.
    Electric cars are a whole different ballgame to conventional vehicles, so the 'no basis of car manufacture' is pretty well irrelevant. Singapore has quite a significant aerospace industry, which is arguably far more relevant.
    The other attraction is that self-driving electric vehicles will roll out first in cities, and Singapore is pretty well ideal for this.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Mr. eek, ah, cheers.

    Shame there wasn't more coverage of the actual gang of rapists, mind.

    Mr. Pulpstar, ha. If you think that's going to persuade hardline Leavers, I fear that optimism has overwhelmed you :)

    Noone is going to persuade the hardline leavers that went on the Farage march, but the sensible middle ground that DavidL outlined today is a massive and quiet majority I believe.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,063

    The future is Chinese while we naval gaze wondering whether to build a new railway line or runway after decades.

    Or waste time retreating into a ghetto of sentimentality instead of embracing a leading role in European integration.
    Or retreating into a mawkish obsession with a continent whose best times are behind it while we could be stepping away from Europe and embracing the whole world.
    That's absurd doublethink. We are part of Europe so if you truly believe Europe's best times are behind it you are talking about Britain too, and leaving the EU will only make our relative situation worse.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    edited October 2018
    Nigelb said:

    This ties in with what others have been saying about European car makers betting the farm on diesel and ignoring electric cars while the Asian ones have been investing heavily in battery technology.
    I think it's more a story about the importance of proximity and regional hubs in manufacturing. They've made the decision to be close to their existing facilities in Singapore and Malaysia.
    I should probably have read the full story shouldn’t I?

    Dyson as many companies has followed the route it knows best. Singapore is not a good place to manufacture cars. Too expensive and short of skilled workers. It also has no basis of car manufacture. It is however close to the Asian market which is probably a better place to start than Europe for Dyson and close to his existing supplier base. If long term Dyson wants to break into Europe or USA then expect a new plant in that region. This is not a Brexit story.

    The one thing that it does show is that the idea that we will shift the products we manufacture from sales to Europe to global is already dead whatever trade deals we sign. Services and high end products sell globally but most bulk products are being produced closer to the end markets.
    Electric cars are a whole different ballgame to conventional vehicles, so the 'no basis of car manufacture' is pretty well irrelevant.

    Tesla's electric car difficulties and lack of profit show this to be untrue.

    Traditional car companies are good at mass production, product integration, cost control and timely delivery.

    The rest they can learn.
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    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    President of Exeter Conservative Association calls for a united Ireland.
    image

    He should not be in the Conservative and Unionist party then, even if I do agree with SM and CU for NI and FTA for GB
    So you're not a unionist and want to dissolve the union? Under your logic you shouldn't be in the Conservative and Unionist Party either.

    If your proposal goes ahead the union would already be dead. Which is why its opposed by unionists.
    Given NI outlaws gay marriage and abortion it hardly mirrors GB on everything now anyway
    That is their choice though. They could legalise it if they chose to.

    Under your proposal they would be a colony of the EU. Forced to maintain EU laws but given no say in them.

    NI is already in the EU, that hasn't forced them to legalise gay marriage and abortion to date.
    No but it does force them to obey EU laws and regulations. Currently they get a say in what those laws are but under the proposals they won't. They won't have any MEPs, votes in Council or anything else.

    I thought colonialism had been condemned to the past.
    Well there we have it - the joys of Brexit, eh? Turning us all from shared rule makers to disenfranchised rule takers.
    I know you're trying to be clever but yes exactly. These proposals are the worst of all worlds.

    Remain or leave, just make a bloody decision. Don't leave but then lampoon yourself into maintaining rules from outside.

    It's like leaving a train carriage but then trying to grip on from the outside and maintain momentum from outside with the train. Either be on board or get out, one or the other.
    To pick up your train analogy: The issue is we want to continue enjoying all the benefits of the train journey, without being on the train or paying the fare. It's just not going to happen and the Leave campaigners were either too stupid or too disingenuous to call that out.

    If we get completely off the train we will be left behind.
    Leavers said all along at the time we would leave the Single Union and Customs Market. So did Remainers at the time.

    Either stay on the train or get off completely not to be left behind but to go to a different destination. Choose a different path.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,602

    Mr. Thompson, isn't the Irish bridge problematic due to the immensely deep water and high wind speeds? No idea if the conditions from China to Hong Kong are the same. (Also, China has a lot more cash to spend, and a desire to tighten its grip on Hong Kong).

    Maximum water depth of 44.5m, versus 250m for the Beaufort Dyke.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    Mr. Glenn, it's possible. Western Europe's best time might be considered Rome under Vespasian and Titus. After that it bobbed about a bit then collapsed into the Dark Ages. Recently things have improved but there's every chance, either here or elsewhere, things can go backwards. Compare the Middle East to a couple of centuries ago.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,672
    The company stressed that Britain’s impending departure from the EU, a move supported by founder Sir James Dyson, was not a factor in its decision, which was announced on Tuesday morning to staff by Dyson chief executive Jim Rowan.

    “You can’t bring Brexit into the discussion,” Ian Robertson, a non-executive director on the operating board of Dyson, told the Financial Times.

    Singapore has trade agreements with China, the largest electric car market in the world, and Japan, and a pending free trade deal with the EU.

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    The future is Chinese while we naval gaze wondering whether to build a new railway line or runway after decades.

    Or waste time retreating into a ghetto of sentimentality instead of embracing a leading role in European integration.
    Or retreating into a mawkish obsession with a continent whose best times are behind it while we could be stepping away from Europe and embracing the whole world.
    That's absurd doublethink. We are part of Europe so if you truly believe Europe's best times are behind it you are talking about Britain too, and leaving the EU will only make our relative situation worse.
    Britain has always thrived best when it has been global and interested in the whole globe not just our continent. Our relative situation will only get worse if we stick our heads in the sand and pretend Europe is still what matters rather than embracing the real world and thriving Asia.

    Australia has a free trade agreement with China, Japan and the USA. We have a free trade agreement with none of them. Australians are wealthier per capita than Brits. It's time to move on, the age of Europe ended 73 years ago let's move on and embrace the world.
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    notmenotme Posts: 3,293

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    President of Exeter Conservative Association calls for a united Ireland.
    image

    He should not be in the Conservative and Unionist party then, even if I do agree with SM and CU for NI and FTA for GB
    So you're not a unionist and want to dissolve the union? Under your logic you shouldn't be in the Conservative and Unionist Party either.

    If your proposal goes ahead the union would already be dead. Which is why its opposed by unionists.
    Given NI outlaws gay marriage and abortion it hardly mirrors GB on everything now anyway
    That is their choice though. They could legalise it if they chose to.

    Under your proposal they would be a colony of the EU. Forced to maintain EU laws but given no say in them.

    NI is already in the EU, that hasn't forced them to legalise gay marriage and abortion to date.
    No but it does force them to obey EU laws and regulations. Currently they get a say in what those laws are but under the proposals they won't. They won't have any MEPs, votes in Council or anything else.

    I thought colonialism had been condemned to the past.
    Well there we have it - the joys of Brexit, eh? Turning us all from shared rule makers to disenfranchised rule takers.
    I know you're trying to be clever but yes exactly. These proposals are the worst of all worlds.

    Remain or leave, just make a bloody decision. Don't leave but then lampoon yourself into maintaining rules from outside.

    It's like leaving a train carriage but then trying to grip on from the outside and maintain momentum from outside with the train. Either be on board or get out, one or the other.
    To pick up your train analogy: The issue is we want to continue enjoying all the benefits of the train journey, without being on the train or paying the fare. It's just not going to happen and the Leave campaigners were either too stupid or too disingenuous to call that out.

    If we get completely off the train we will be left behind.
    Actually, no we never wanted to be on the train. We just wanted to sell coffee, snacks and newspapers at the station. We ended up having to buy first class tickets for a journey we never wanted and give out free sandwiches from the buffet for the privilege.
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited October 2018
    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Thompson, isn't the Irish bridge problematic due to the immensely deep water and high wind speeds? No idea if the conditions from China to Hong Kong are the same. (Also, China has a lot more cash to spend, and a desire to tighten its grip on Hong Kong).

    Maximum water depth of 44.5m, versus 250m for the Beaufort Dyke.
    It probably does not help that Beaufort's Dyke has been used to dump naval and chemical muntions into because it was nice and deep. It was the navy's primary dump area and occasionally the old munition wash up in Cumbria and Co Down.

    Boom! Boom!
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    edited October 2018

    The future is Chinese while we naval gaze wondering whether to build a new railway line or runway after decades.

    Or waste time retreating into a ghetto of sentimentality instead of embracing a leading role in European integration.
    Or retreating into a mawkish obsession with a continent whose best times are behind it while we could be stepping away from Europe and embracing the whole world.
    That's absurd doublethink. We are part of Europe so if you truly believe Europe's best times are behind it you are talking about Britain too, and leaving the EU will only make our relative situation worse.
    Britain has always thrived best when it has been global and interested in the whole globe not just our continent. Our relative situation will only get worse if we stick our heads in the sand and pretend Europe is still what matters rather than embracing the real world and thriving Asia.

    Australia has a free trade agreement with China, Japan and the USA. We have a free trade agreement with none of them. Australians are wealthier per capita than Brits. It's time to move on, the age of Europe ended 73 years ago let's move on and embrace the world.

    Can you explain how making it more time consuming and expensive to trade with our closest neighbours - who also happen to take more of our exports than anyone else - is going to help the UK trade more with the rest of the world?

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    tlg86 said:

    That Tweet from Stewart Jackson is, quite simply, unbelievable.

    I also find it bizarre that someone would politicise their sick child.
    There are ways to express that without using the word cretin.

    Why not just ignore it?

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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,063

    The future is Chinese while we naval gaze wondering whether to build a new railway line or runway after decades.

    Or waste time retreating into a ghetto of sentimentality instead of embracing a leading role in European integration.
    Or retreating into a mawkish obsession with a continent whose best times are behind it while we could be stepping away from Europe and embracing the whole world.
    That's absurd doublethink. We are part of Europe so if you truly believe Europe's best times are behind it you are talking about Britain too, and leaving the EU will only make our relative situation worse.
    Britain has always thrived best when it has been global and interested in the whole globe not just our continent. Our relative situation will only get worse if we stick our heads in the sand and pretend Europe is still what matters rather than embracing the real world and thriving Asia.

    Australia has a free trade agreement with China, Japan and the USA. We have a free trade agreement with none of them. Australians are wealthier per capita than Brits. It's time to move on, the age of Europe ended 73 years ago let's move on and embrace the world.

    Can you explain how making it more time consuming and expensive to trade with our closest neighbours - who also happen to take more of our exports than anyone else - is going to help the UK trade more with the rest of the world?

    And if so, presumably the same effect works in reverse. Being shorn of the UK will make the EU more global? If that seems absurd, it's because it is.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,097
    edited October 2018
    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Thompson, isn't the Irish bridge problematic due to the immensely deep water and high wind speeds? No idea if the conditions from China to Hong Kong are the same. (Also, China has a lot more cash to spend, and a desire to tighten its grip on Hong Kong).

    Maximum water depth of 44.5m, versus 250m for the Beaufort Dyke.
    There are also c.1m tons of munitions dumped around Beaufort's Dyke.
    A psychologist could have a field day with Boris's schemes (see also SS Richard Montgomery & Boris Island) and their explosive associations.

    Edit: I see Beverley_C beat me to it!
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited October 2018

    The future is Chinese while we naval gaze wondering whether to build a new railway line or runway after decades.

    Or waste time retreating into a ghetto of sentimentality instead of embracing a leading role in European integration.
    Or retreating into a mawkish obsession with a continent whose best times are behind it while we could be stepping away from Europe and embracing the whole world.
    That's absurd doublethink. We are part of Europe so if you truly believe Europe's best times are behind it you are talking about Britain too, and leaving the EU will only make our relative situation worse.
    Britain has always thrived best when it has been global and interested in the whole globe not just our continent. Our relative situation will only get worse if we stick our heads in the sand and pretend Europe is still what matters rather than embracing the real world and thriving Asia.

    Australia has a free trade agreement with China, Japan and the USA. We have a free trade agreement with none of them. Australians are wealthier per capita than Brits. It's time to move on, the age of Europe ended 73 years ago let's move on and embrace the world.
    The 3 largest economic blocks in the world today are the USA, China and the EU, together they comprise over 50% of nominal global GDP. Almost half of UK exports go to the EU, we may want to look to the rest of the world but we cannot turn our back on the EU either
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,602
    tlg86 said:

    Headline on the Guardian home page:

    'Explosive device' found in mailbox at philanthropist billionaire's home

    Does the Guardian describe all billionaires who give money away in such terms?

    Those who have given away two thirds of their net worth, perhaps ?
    In any event, I'm pretty sure Gates would be similarly described.
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    The future is Chinese while we naval gaze wondering whether to build a new railway line or runway after decades.

    Or waste time retreating into a ghetto of sentimentality instead of embracing a leading role in European integration.
    Or retreating into a mawkish obsession with a continent whose best times are behind it while we could be stepping away from Europe and embracing the whole world.
    That's absurd doublethink. We are part of Europe so if you truly believe Europe's best times are behind it you are talking about Britain too, and leaving the EU will only make our relative situation worse.
    Britain has always thrived best when it has been global and interested in the whole globe not just our continent. Our relative situation will only get worse if we stick our heads in the sand and pretend Europe is still what matters rather than embracing the real world and thriving Asia.

    Australia has a free trade agreement with China, Japan and the USA. We have a free trade agreement with none of them. Australians are wealthier per capita than Brits. It's time to move on, the age of Europe ended 73 years ago let's move on and embrace the world.

    Can you explain how making it more time consuming and expensive to trade with our closest neighbours - who also happen to take more of our exports than anyone else - is going to help the UK trade more with the rest of the world?

    7% of the globe live within the EU, 93% do not.

    Even if you make it 10% harder with the EU and only 5% easier with those outside, the overall effect is positive.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Thompson, isn't the Irish bridge problematic due to the immensely deep water and high wind speeds? No idea if the conditions from China to Hong Kong are the same. (Also, China has a lot more cash to spend, and a desire to tighten its grip on Hong Kong).

    Maximum water depth of 44.5m, versus 250m for the Beaufort Dyke.
    There are also c.1m tons of munitions dumped around Beaufort's Dyke.
    A psychologist could have a field day with Boris's schemes (see also SS Richard Montgomery & Boris Island) and their explosive associations.
    I've always assumed that Boris often feels that times get rough and that friends just can't be found.
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    HYUFD said:

    The future is Chinese while we naval gaze wondering whether to build a new railway line or runway after decades.

    Or waste time retreating into a ghetto of sentimentality instead of embracing a leading role in European integration.
    Or retreating into a mawkish obsession with a continent whose best times are behind it while we could be stepping away from Europe and embracing the whole world.
    That's absurd doublethink. We are part of Europe so if you truly believe Europe's best times are behind it you are talking about Britain too, and leaving the EU will only make our relative situation worse.
    Britain has always thrived best when it has been global and interested in the whole globe not just our continent. Our relative situation will only get worse if we stick our heads in the sand and pretend Europe is still what matters rather than embracing the real world and thriving Asia.

    Australia has a free trade agreement with China, Japan and the USA. We have a free trade agreement with none of them. Australians are wealthier per capita than Brits. It's time to move on, the age of Europe ended 73 years ago let's move on and embrace the world.
    The 3 largest economic blocks in the world today are the USA, China and the EU, together they comprise over 50% of nominal global GDP. Almost half of UK exports go to the EU, we may want to look to the rest of the world but we cannot turn our back on the EU either
    No need to turn our backs on the EU, we just don't need to be a part of it and can co-operate with a basic trade deal.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,063

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Thompson, isn't the Irish bridge problematic due to the immensely deep water and high wind speeds? No idea if the conditions from China to Hong Kong are the same. (Also, China has a lot more cash to spend, and a desire to tighten its grip on Hong Kong).

    Maximum water depth of 44.5m, versus 250m for the Beaufort Dyke.
    There are also c.1m tons of munitions dumped around Beaufort's Dyke.
    A psychologist could have a field day with Boris's schemes (see also SS Richard Montgomery & Boris Island) and their explosive associations.
    I've always assumed that Boris often feels that times get rough and that friends just can't be found.
    Like the way Liam Fox complains that the EU Trade Commissioner is shaking his confidence daily?
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    kingbongokingbongo Posts: 393

    I recall a lot of Leavers eagerly tweeting upward movements in the FTSE. No doubt they will be stampeding to tweet this one too:

    https://twitter.com/econbartleby/status/1054654420334579712

    Indeed. From a quick bit of maths I think the inflation-adjusted FTSE100 is now where it was in 1995 and only 60% of where it was at the end of 1999. (That ignores dividend income of course.)
    Excluding either inflation or dividends is not realistic.

    Be interesting to see a divfidend-including, inflation-including analysis.
    It would. Let's hope someone with more time or a bigger spreadsheet than me can help. :smile:
    On a five year basis the FTSE 100 has returned a nominal 5% p.a. or so I believe.
    The Barclays equity/gilts study is the usual source to find out this sort of thing - I started investing my own pension in 1996 and that's more than doubled with no extra contributions just reinvested dividends so that's about 5% - as the Barclays study shows it's dividends that make up the bulk of long term return not the stock price. Of course now all my spending is in Danish Kroner my UK assets are worth diddly squat!
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,063

    HYUFD said:

    The future is Chinese while we naval gaze wondering whether to build a new railway line or runway after decades.

    Or waste time retreating into a ghetto of sentimentality instead of embracing a leading role in European integration.
    Or retreating into a mawkish obsession with a continent whose best times are behind it while we could be stepping away from Europe and embracing the whole world.
    That's absurd doublethink. We are part of Europe so if you truly believe Europe's best times are behind it you are talking about Britain too, and leaving the EU will only make our relative situation worse.
    Britain has always thrived best when it has been global and interested in the whole globe not just our continent. Our relative situation will only get worse if we stick our heads in the sand and pretend Europe is still what matters rather than embracing the real world and thriving Asia.

    Australia has a free trade agreement with China, Japan and the USA. We have a free trade agreement with none of them. Australians are wealthier per capita than Brits. It's time to move on, the age of Europe ended 73 years ago let's move on and embrace the world.
    The 3 largest economic blocks in the world today are the USA, China and the EU, together they comprise over 50% of nominal global GDP. Almost half of UK exports go to the EU, we may want to look to the rest of the world but we cannot turn our back on the EU either
    No need to turn our backs on the EU, we just don't need to be a part of it and can co-operate with a basic trade deal.
    And where will the customs border with Ireland be? I hope you can give a straight answer.
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    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    Leavers said all along at the time we would leave the Single Union and Customs Market. So did Remainers at the time.
    Either stay on the train or get off completely not to be left behind but to go to a different destination. Choose a different path.

    Some did, Mr Thompson, and some didn`t. The EU Referendum was such a shambles from beginning to end, that nobody had any clear idea what they were voting for, If they had had, the Conservatives would not be so busy now fighting among themselves.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    HYUFD said:

    The future is Chinese while we naval gaze wondering whether to build a new railway line or runway after decades.

    Or waste time retreating into a ghetto of sentimentality instead of embracing a leading role in European integration.
    Or retreating into a mawkish obsession with a continent whose best times are behind it while we could be stepping away from Europe and embracing the whole world.
    That's absurd doublethink. We are part of Europe so if you truly believe Europe's best times are behind it you are talking about Britain too, and leaving the EU will only make our relative situation worse.
    Britain has always thrived best when it has been global and interested in the whole globe not just our continent. Our relative situation will only get worse if we stick our heads in the sand and pretend Europe is still what matters rather than embracing the real world and thriving Asia.

    Australia has a free trade agreement with China, Japan and the USA. We have a free trade agreement with none of them. Australians are wealthier per capita than Brits. It's time to move on, the age of Europe ended 73 years ago let's move on and embrace the world.
    The 3 largest economic blocks in the world today are the USA, China and the EU, together they comprise over 50% of nominal global GDP. Almost half of UK exports go to the EU, we may want to look to the rest of the world but we cannot turn our back on the EU either
    No need to turn our backs on the EU, we just don't need to be a part of it and can co-operate with a basic trade deal.
    Yes and to get there... how do you propose to 'solve' Northern Ireland (Particularly with the DUP being part of the Gov't block) ?
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    volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    Nigelb said:

    And what sort of low life politician uses such language towards either the kid or his family, or assumes that they have any insight into the lives of a family they have never spoken to ?

    Oh, Stewart Jackson.
    Agreed,vicious disablist language has consequences which require sanction.
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/disability-hate-crime-rise-latest-figures-united-response-a8583751.html
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,672
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Thompson, isn't the Irish bridge problematic due to the immensely deep water and high wind speeds? No idea if the conditions from China to Hong Kong are the same. (Also, China has a lot more cash to spend, and a desire to tighten its grip on Hong Kong).

    Maximum water depth of 44.5m, versus 250m for the Beaufort Dyke.
    There are also c.1m tons of munitions dumped around Beaufort's Dyke.
    A psychologist could have a field day with Boris's schemes (see also SS Richard Montgomery & Boris Island) and their explosive associations.
    I've always assumed that Boris often feels that times get rough and that friends just can't be found.
    Like the way Liam Fox complains that the EU Trade Commissioner is shaking his confidence daily?
    It's a great sadness for me that North Somerset's boundaries are set as they are, because otherwise any constituency row that Liam Fox got involved in could be given the headline "Trouble over Bridgewater".
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    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Thompson, isn't the Irish bridge problematic due to the immensely deep water and high wind speeds? No idea if the conditions from China to Hong Kong are the same. (Also, China has a lot more cash to spend, and a desire to tighten its grip on Hong Kong).

    Maximum water depth of 44.5m, versus 250m for the Beaufort Dyke.
    There are also c.1m tons of munitions dumped around Beaufort's Dyke.
    A psychologist could have a field day with Boris's schemes (see also SS Richard Montgomery & Boris Island) and their explosive associations.
    I've always assumed that Boris often feels that times get rough and that friends just can't be found.
    Ha.
    I'm sure 50 Ways to Leave Your Lover also comes up frequently on his shuffle during those elephantine jogging sessions.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Salvini, Conte and Di Maio are quite popular in Italy (It's a multi party system so the ratings should be lower than say Trump's or May (They're higher)), and closer to Macron/Merkel. They're all around or over 50%.
    They have much political capital right now.
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    Scott_P said:
    Have you ever noticed that when a project starts to go badly, suddenly everything starts going wrong. Brexit is moving into the 'how do we get out of this mess?' phase.
    Reducing DD's chances of becoming PM in the next few months might be the single most useful thing Jackson has done in his political career.
    One of the reasons that I haven’t backed Gove heavily as next PM is that more than a few MPs are worried at the thought of Dom Cummings being Number 10 Chief of Staff.

    Stewart Jackson or Dom Cummings in number 10 is nearly as frightening as Corbyn as PM.
    Agreed. There are other reasons to pass over Gove but the idea of Cummings being given licence to go off on some Olympian reforming odyssey should fill anyone who recognises the need for continuity in delivery with dread. Still think that Gove would make a good Chancellor though.
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,999



    With 2 huge aircraft carriers for which we can't afford adequate escorts, I agree about the naval gazing (sorry, couldn't resist).

    We showed we are serious about projecting power in the new age of Global Britain with the phenomenal strike group we put together to escort QE on WESTLANT 18. It consisted of, er, HMS Monmouth.

    At least we don't have to send a tug with her everywhere like that Russian garbage scow the Kuznetsov.
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited October 2018

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Thompson, isn't the Irish bridge problematic due to the immensely deep water and high wind speeds? No idea if the conditions from China to Hong Kong are the same. (Also, China has a lot more cash to spend, and a desire to tighten its grip on Hong Kong).

    Maximum water depth of 44.5m, versus 250m for the Beaufort Dyke.
    There are also c.1m tons of munitions dumped around Beaufort's Dyke.
    A psychologist could have a field day with Boris's schemes (see also SS Richard Montgomery & Boris Island) and their explosive associations.

    Edit: I see Beverley_C beat me to it!
    You need more Porridge for breakfast. :D
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,817




    Or re-running a referendum if the wrong result was given last time.

    Mr Dancer, I've seen that statement made a few times, and while I think there's a little to it, I'm not sure it's a completely fair summary of the situation.
    There have been a few occasions of a "second referendum" coming about on EU-related issues in EU states, but it seems that in each case, the EU went away and changed the offering to reflect why the member state voted "no".
    (ie: "What's wrong with it?"
    "We don't want x in it and we do want y in it."
    "Okay, we've taken x out and added y in as a direct opt-out for you. Will that do?"
    "Wait a bit; we'll put it to the people again on that basis.... yup, they said yes this time"
    "Cool")

    It's also why I don't think a straight rerun of 2016 should occur. Yes, the campaigns lied and we know more now, but isn't it always that way? Any fresh referendum needs to be on a specific deal, and I favour a two-round referendum of "Take the deal, yes or no?" and, if no, "Leave with no deal or remain?"
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    Pulpstar said:

    HYUFD said:

    The future is Chinese while we naval gaze wondering whether to build a new railway line or runway after decades.

    Or waste time retreating into a ghetto of sentimentality instead of embracing a leading role in European integration.
    Or retreating into a mawkish obsession with a continent whose best times are behind it while we could be stepping away from Europe and embracing the whole world.
    That's absurd doublethink. We are part of Europe so if you truly believe Europe's best times are behind it you are talking about Britain too, and leaving the EU will only make our relative situation worse.
    Britain has always thrived best when it has been global and interested in the whole globe not just our continent. Our relative situation will only get worse if we stick our heads in the sand and pretend Europe is still what matters rather than embracing the real world and thriving Asia.

    Australia has a free trade agreement with China, Japan and the USA. We have a free trade agreement with none of them. Australians are wealthier per capita than Brits. It's time to move on, the age of Europe ended 73 years ago let's move on and embrace the world.
    The 3 largest economic blocks in the world today are the USA, China and the EU, together they comprise over 50% of nominal global GDP. Almost half of UK exports go to the EU, we may want to look to the rest of the world but we cannot turn our back on the EU either
    No need to turn our backs on the EU, we just don't need to be a part of it and can co-operate with a basic trade deal.
    Yes and to get there... how do you propose to 'solve' Northern Ireland (Particularly with the DUP being part of the Gov't block) ?
    Following the principle of power sharing I would say to Barnier we will only agree to an NI-specific deal that has the backing of Sinn Fein, the SDLP, Alliance, UUP and DUP. The DUP then have a veto on any deal and so being part of the government block is moot. I would insist the integrity of our union is as sacrosanct as the integrity of theirs.

    Alternatively we will leave on time but are prepared to discuss transitioning into a Free Trade Agreement that uses technology and goodwill to solve any border issues. If there is an EU-UK deal that works we make the NI border and Dover border issues moot.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,063

    It's also why I don't think a straight rerun of 2016 should occur. Yes, the campaigns lied and we know more now, but isn't it always that way? Any fresh referendum needs to be on a specific deal, and I favour a two-round referendum of "Take the deal, yes or no?" and, if no, "Leave with no deal or remain?"

    Leave with no deal is only something that can happen by accident, or that should be left in reserve by the government as a last resort. Putting it on a ballot paper would be completely irresponsible.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,602

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Thompson, isn't the Irish bridge problematic due to the immensely deep water and high wind speeds? No idea if the conditions from China to Hong Kong are the same. (Also, China has a lot more cash to spend, and a desire to tighten its grip on Hong Kong).

    Maximum water depth of 44.5m, versus 250m for the Beaufort Dyke.
    There are also c.1m tons of munitions dumped around Beaufort's Dyke.
    A psychologist could have a field day with Boris's schemes (see also SS Richard Montgomery & Boris Island) and their explosive associations.
    I've always assumed that Boris often feels that times get rough and that friends just can't be found.
    'All lies and jests' is a more apposite S&G lyric where Boris is concerned.
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    Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    A surprising fact - we hear the German comparison all the time, but they are the outliers:
    https://twitter.com/M_PaulMcNamara/status/1054461013758799872
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,063

    Pulpstar said:

    Yes and to get there... how do you propose to 'solve' Northern Ireland (Particularly with the DUP being part of the Gov't block) ?

    Following the principle of power sharing I would say to Barnier we will only agree to an NI-specific deal that has the backing of Sinn Fein, the SDLP, Alliance, UUP and DUP. The DUP then have a veto on any deal and so being part of the government block is moot. I would insist the integrity of our union is as sacrosanct as the integrity of theirs.

    Alternatively we will leave on time but are prepared to discuss transitioning into a Free Trade Agreement that uses technology and goodwill to solve any border issues. If there is an EU-UK deal that works we make the NI border and Dover border issues moot.
    In other words, you'd negotiate in bad faith; they'd see you coming, and you'd end up with your head in your hands like the rest of them.

    image
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    I recall a lot of Leavers eagerly tweeting upward movements in the FTSE. No doubt they will be stampeding to tweet this one too:

    https://twitter.com/econbartleby/status/1054654420334579712

    Indeed. From a quick bit of maths I think the inflation-adjusted FTSE100 is now where it was in 1995 and only 60% of where it was at the end of 1999. (That ignores dividend income of course.)
    Never forget dividends. Comparing stock market value whilst ignoring dividends is a sure route to insanity.
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    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Going back to the size of the march, here's a pretty conclusive indication that it was massive and in line with the size the organisers' claimed.

    https://twitter.com/Aidan4Europe/status/1054104612570050561

    Anything comparable in the public domain for the other two big marches?
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    Pulpstar said:

    Yes and to get there... how do you propose to 'solve' Northern Ireland (Particularly with the DUP being part of the Gov't block) ?

    Following the principle of power sharing I would say to Barnier we will only agree to an NI-specific deal that has the backing of Sinn Fein, the SDLP, Alliance, UUP and DUP. The DUP then have a veto on any deal and so being part of the government block is moot. I would insist the integrity of our union is as sacrosanct as the integrity of theirs.

    Alternatively we will leave on time but are prepared to discuss transitioning into a Free Trade Agreement that uses technology and goodwill to solve any border issues. If there is an EU-UK deal that works we make the NI border and Dover border issues moot.
    In other words, you'd negotiate in bad faith; they'd see you coming, and you'd end up with your head in your hands like the rest of them.
    I'd negotiate in good faith and transparently. To negotiate a deal then say "oh no I can't get this past the DUP" is bad faith. Make it clear and transparent from the start the DUP have a veto on any deal, then any deal must satisfy them.
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    Dura_Ace said:



    With 2 huge aircraft carriers for which we can't afford adequate escorts, I agree about the naval gazing (sorry, couldn't resist).

    We showed we are serious about projecting power in the new age of Global Britain with the phenomenal strike group we put together to escort QE on WESTLANT 18. It consisted of, er, HMS Monmouth.

    At least we don't have to send a tug with her everywhere like that Russian garbage scow the Kuznetsov.
    I believe QE is currently in New York performing substitute HMY Britannia duties, allowing our Secretary of State for International Trade and President of the Board of Trade to schmooze with Trumpers. Anything with Liam Fox aboard could certainly be described as lethal.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,983
    edited October 2018
    Mr. Cooke, hmm. I'd want to check whether any changes were actually meaningful, to be honest, or more redrafting with the substance remaining the same.

    Edited extra bit: this segment links both that concept, and why so many were so disgruntled by the lack of a Lisbon referendum:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratification_of_the_Treaty_of_Lisbon#The_United_Kingdom
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,079
    Scott_P said:
    I guess because geographically, nothing is changing?
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,419

    For balance, Graham Allen, for many years Labour MP for Nottingham North, thought highly of IDS and took a certain amount of partisan flak for working with him on addressing the causes of poverty (Graham's big thing is early education). He reckoned that IDS was the genuine article of a Christian Democrat who genuinely worried about people at the bottom of the heap. Doesn't make IDS necessarily competent or right, but more complex than just a shrill right-winger.

    Were it not for IDS's Euroscepticism, it's much less likely that he'd be labelled as of the right of the Tory Party. It's a measure of how that issue has become so definitive to politicians and (even more so), to the media (who love tags and simplicity), that Duncan Smith's work and interests elsewhere has been largely ignored in any assessment of his overall ideology.
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    kjhkjh Posts: 10,631




    Or re-running a referendum if the wrong result was given last time.

    Mr Dancer, I've seen that statement made a few times, and while I think there's a little to it, I'm not sure it's a completely fair summary of the situation.
    There have been a few occasions of a "second referendum" coming about on EU-related issues in EU states, but it seems that in each case, the EU went away and changed the offering to reflect why the member state voted "no".
    (ie: "What's wrong with it?"
    "We don't want x in it and we do want y in it."
    "Okay, we've taken x out and added y in as a direct opt-out for you. Will that do?"
    "Wait a bit; we'll put it to the people again on that basis.... yup, they said yes this time"
    "Cool")

    It's also why I don't think a straight rerun of 2016 should occur. Yes, the campaigns lied and we know more now, but isn't it always that way? Any fresh referendum needs to be on a specific deal, and I favour a two-round referendum of "Take the deal, yes or no?" and, if no, "Leave with no deal or remain?"
    +1
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    The future is Chinese while we naval gaze wondering whether to build a new railway line or runway after decades.

    Or waste time retreating into a ghetto of sentimentality instead of embracing a leading role in European integration.
    Or retreating into a mawkish obsession with a continent whose best times are behind it while we could be stepping away from Europe and embracing the whole world.
    That's absurd doublethink. We are part of Europe so if you truly believe Europe's best times are behind it you are talking about Britain too, and leaving the EU will only make our relative situation worse.
    Britain has always thrived best when it has been global and interested in the whole globe not just our continent. Our relative situation will only get worse if we stick our heads in the sand and pretend Europe is still what matters rather than embracing the real world and thriving Asia.

    Australia has a free trade agreement with China, Japan and the USA. We have a free trade agreement with none of them. Australians are wealthier per capita than Brits. It's time to move on, the age of Europe ended 73 years ago let's move on and embrace the world.

    Can you explain how making it more time consuming and expensive to trade with our closest neighbours - who also happen to take more of our exports than anyone else - is going to help the UK trade more with the rest of the world?

    7% of the globe live within the EU, 93% do not.

    Even if you make it 10% harder with the EU and only 5% easier with those outside, the overall effect is positive.
    That is dangerously wrong and misleading. Distance matters. The gravity model of international trade shows that trade flows follow the same sort of laws as gravity in physics. In other words, the amount of international trade between countries varies according to distance (squared) and GDP (economic mass).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_model_of_trade

    RCS should do a video on it.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,966
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    Mr. Thompson, isn't the Irish bridge problematic due to the immensely deep water and high wind speeds? No idea if the conditions from China to Hong Kong are the same. (Also, China has a lot more cash to spend, and a desire to tighten its grip on Hong Kong).

    Maximum water depth of 44.5m, versus 250m for the Beaufort Dyke.
    There are also c.1m tons of munitions dumped around Beaufort's Dyke.
    A psychologist could have a field day with Boris's schemes (see also SS Richard Montgomery & Boris Island) and their explosive associations.
    I've always assumed that Boris often feels that times get rough and that friends just can't be found.
    'All lies and jests' is a more apposite S&G lyric where Boris is concerned.
    A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest?
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    Andy_CookeAndy_Cooke Posts: 4,817

    Mr. Cooke, hmm. I'd want to check whether any changes were actually meaningful, to be honest, or more redrafting with the substance remaining the same.

    Edited extra bit: this segment links both that concept, and why so many were so disgruntled by the lack of a Lisbon referendum:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratification_of_the_Treaty_of_Lisbon#The_United_Kingdom

    I was thinking of the Irish experience. They ran a second referendum after: "On 12 December 2008 the Taoiseach, Brian Cowen confirmed that a second referendum would be held, after an EU leaders summit agreed to keep 1 Commissioner per member state and to incorporate legally binding guarantees on abortion, taxation and military neutrality in the Croatian Accession Treaty."
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    kingbongokingbongo Posts: 393

    The future is Chinese while we naval gaze wondering whether to build a new railway line or runway after decades.

    Or waste time retreating into a ghetto of sentimentality instead of embracing a leading role in European integration.
    Or retreating into a mawkish obsession with a continent whose best times are behind it while we could be stepping away from Europe and embracing the whole world.
    That's absurd doublethink. We are part of Europe so if you truly believe Europe's best times are behind it you are talking about Britain too, and leaving the EU will only make our relative situation worse.
    Britain has always thrived best when it has been global and interested in the whole globe not just our continent. Our relative situation will only get worse if we stick our heads in the sand and pretend Europe is still what matters rather than embracing the real world and thriving Asia.

    Australia has a free trade agreement with China, Japan and the USA. We have a free trade agreement with none of them. Australians are wealthier per capita than Brits. It's time to move on, the age of Europe ended 73 years ago let's move on and embrace the world.

    Can you explain how making it more time consuming and expensive to trade with our closest neighbours - who also happen to take more of our exports than anyone else - is going to help the UK trade more with the rest of the world?

    7% of the globe live within the EU, 93% do not.

    Even if you make it 10% harder with the EU and only 5% easier with those outside, the overall effect is positive.
    That is dangerously wrong and misleading. Distance matters. The gravity model of international trade shows that trade flows follow the same sort of laws as gravity in physics. In other words, the amount of international trade between countries varies according to distance (squared) and GDP (economic mass).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_model_of_trade

    RCS should do a video on it.
    I am sure there is an effect but how does this explain Japan's rise or CHina's? they grew by exporting over large distances - it feels unconvincing and rather too deterministic - how will Nigeria become a major economy if it's richest continental neighbour, South Africa, is thousands of miles away?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,848
    O/T Two more US Senate races seem to be resolving themselves, with new polls showing Nelson 6% and 8% ahead in Florida, and Cramer 16% ahead in North Dakota.

    ND looks like a sure Republican gain, Florida and West Virginia sure Democratic holds.
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    Alistair said:

    I recall a lot of Leavers eagerly tweeting upward movements in the FTSE. No doubt they will be stampeding to tweet this one too:

    https://twitter.com/econbartleby/status/1054654420334579712

    Indeed. From a quick bit of maths I think the inflation-adjusted FTSE100 is now where it was in 1995 and only 60% of where it was at the end of 1999. (That ignores dividend income of course.)
    Never forget dividends. Comparing stock market value whilst ignoring dividends is a sure route to insanity.
    You'd never invest in the FTSE
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    Scott_P said:
    I guess because geographically, nothing is changing?
    Indeed. Last time I checked Singapore is neither in a political nor a customs union with its neighbouring nations whom it is trading with. Yet somehow it survives. Funny that!
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,848

    On topic, that's a really crass comment from Stewart Jackson.
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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    It's absolutely pathetic that adults use young kids to push their own political agenda and then splash them all over social media. I saw similar with Adonis and some offensive placard at the weekend. Just smacks of bad parenting.
    On the flipside as a former MP not sure Stewart Jackson should be calling the stepdad a cretin on social media. Too many tweets and all that...
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    OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143
    Alistair said:

    I recall a lot of Leavers eagerly tweeting upward movements in the FTSE. No doubt they will be stampeding to tweet this one too:

    https://twitter.com/econbartleby/status/1054654420334579712

    Indeed. From a quick bit of maths I think the inflation-adjusted FTSE100 is now where it was in 1995 and only 60% of where it was at the end of 1999. (That ignores dividend income of course.)
    Never forget dividends. Comparing stock market value whilst ignoring dividends is a sure route to insanity.
    Well, there are some synthetic index-tracker funds that do, but you'd have to be insane to buy into them. I hope my Aegon managed pension isn't.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    kingbongo said:

    7% of the globe live within the EU, 93% do not.

    Even if you make it 10% harder with the EU and only 5% easier with those outside, the overall effect is positive.

    That is dangerously wrong and misleading. Distance matters. The gravity model of international trade shows that trade flows follow the same sort of laws as gravity in physics. In other words, the amount of international trade between countries varies according to distance (squared) and GDP (economic mass).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_model_of_trade

    RCS should do a video on it.
    I am sure there is an effect but how does this explain Japan's rise or CHina's? they grew by exporting over large distances - it feels unconvincing and rather too deterministic - how will Nigeria become a major economy if it's richest continental neighbour, South Africa, is thousands of miles away?
    The gravity model of international trade is an empirical fact based on observed trade flows. Its weakness is there is no real theoretical basis for it, but it works. Nigeria has oil; China discovered capitalism. I'm not sure either is greatly relevant.

    Now, I am not an economist -- just one first year university course (which it turns out is all you need for a PPE, despite its name making it sound like it is one third of each subject) so do not claim to be an expert. This is (or appears to be) how international trade works. Even after Brexit, most of our trade will be with the EU because it is right next to us and Australia and America are bleeding miles away and Liam Fox can't alter that.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,216
    Interesting debate on the issue of actual number of letters:

    https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1054683594336157696
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    BromBrom Posts: 3,760

    Going back to the size of the march, here's a pretty conclusive indication that it was massive and in line with the size the organisers' claimed.

    https://twitter.com/Aidan4Europe/status/1054104612570050561

    Anything comparable in the public domain for the other two big marches?

    Though I somewhat doubt there were half the 700,000 the organisers suggested (judging by aerial shots) and indeed the fact the Police didnt back up the People's Vote figure suggests it was a very high estimate.
    What surprises me is why this march is so late, it feels like the 2nd referendum opportunity has almost sailed and that a big rally would have been far more productive 6 months ago. With a likely deal on the horizon it's hard to foresee anything other than deal or no deal unless you're the most optimistic remainer.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,848
    Sean_F said:

    O/T Two more US Senate races seem to be resolving themselves, with new polls showing Nelson 6% and 8% ahead in Florida, and Cramer 16% ahead in North Dakota.

    ND looks like a sure Republican gain, Florida and West Virginia sure Democratic holds.

    As a counterfactual, if Hilary Clinton had won in 2016, the Republicans would be on course to gain about 10 Senate seats.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929

    Alistair said:

    I recall a lot of Leavers eagerly tweeting upward movements in the FTSE. No doubt they will be stampeding to tweet this one too:

    https://twitter.com/econbartleby/status/1054654420334579712

    Indeed. From a quick bit of maths I think the inflation-adjusted FTSE100 is now where it was in 1995 and only 60% of where it was at the end of 1999. (That ignores dividend income of course.)
    Never forget dividends. Comparing stock market value whilst ignoring dividends is a sure route to insanity.
    Well, there are some synthetic index-tracker funds that do, but you'd have to be insane to buy into them. I hope my Aegon managed pension isn't.
    I bloody well hope my (equity) funds are busily reinvesting dividends. They are the big ones, ostensibly trackers with the names "Equity", "Overseas equity tracker", "SE OM Smaller Cos", "Emerging market tracker".
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    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Brom said:

    Going back to the size of the march, here's a pretty conclusive indication that it was massive and in line with the size the organisers' claimed.

    https://twitter.com/Aidan4Europe/status/1054104612570050561

    Anything comparable in the public domain for the other two big marches?

    Though I somewhat doubt there were half the 700,000 the organisers suggested (judging by aerial shots) and indeed the fact the Police didnt back up the People's Vote figure suggests it was a very high estimate.
    What surprises me is why this march is so late, it feels like the 2nd referendum opportunity has almost sailed and that a big rally would have been far more productive 6 months ago. With a likely deal on the horizon it's hard to foresee anything other than deal or no deal unless you're the most optimistic remainer.
    The police wisely declined to get involved so you can't take their silence as evidence that things were how you would like them to be. It is fairly easy from that video to make ones own estimate - mine came out 670,00 passing the lens.
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    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,989
    edited October 2018
    There are two big tribes of Leavers who are immune to argument and won't change their minds.

    They are
    a) "Keep British Values" - old, Tory/UKIP anti-immigration types and
    b) "Sod the lot of them" - younger, Labour, working class types.

    There are also two big tribes of Remainers who are immune to argument and won't change their minds.

    They are:
    a) "We know best" - older, university-educated, liberal, well-off insulated types (I'm one) and
    b) "It's our future" - young, urban, politically engaged, internationally minded types.

    The two groups who might change their mind (but are least likely to vote and are disengaged and bored with Brexit) and hold the key to any future referendum are:
    a) "I voted Leave because everyone else did" - more rural, low skilled jobs, left school at 16 types and
    b) "I voted Remain because everyone else did" - young, uneducated, city dwellers

    If they do vote, they will follow the local trend. The march will have had some effect on them because its newsworthy and visual. The political ins and outs, - less so. You can be sure they don't read PB. We are all in the tribes who are immune to argument.
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    FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047

    Scott_P said:
    I guess because geographically, nothing is changing?
    Indeed. Last time I checked Singapore is neither in a political nor a customs union with its neighbouring nations whom it is trading with. Yet somehow it survives. Funny that!
    Its citizens are hard working, intelligent and well-educated. I rest my case.
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    Going back to the size of the march, here's a pretty conclusive indication that it was massive and in line with the size the organisers' claimed.

    https://twitter.com/Aidan4Europe/status/1054104612570050561

    Anything comparable in the public domain for the other two big marches?

    Actually it’s prety hard to estimate the crowd because they are moving too fast to count. Is there any footage at normal speed?
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    eekeek Posts: 24,980

    Going back to the size of the march, here's a pretty conclusive indication that it was massive and in line with the size the organisers' claimed.

    https://twitter.com/Aidan4Europe/status/1054104612570050561

    Anything comparable in the public domain for the other two big marches?

    Actually it’s prety hard to estimate the crowd because they are moving too fast to count. Is there any footage at normal speed?
    The test someone else used was how long it took for a football stadium to clear. Based on that 700,000 is possible...
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited October 2018

    kingbongo said:

    7% of the globe live within the EU, 93% do not.

    Even if you make it 10% harder with the EU and only 5% easier with those outside, the overall effect is positive.

    That is dangerously wrong and misleading. Distance matters. The gravity model of international trade shows that trade flows follow the same sort of laws as gravity in physics. In other words, the amount of international trade between countries varies according to distance (squared) and GDP (economic mass).
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_model_of_trade

    RCS should do a video on it.
    I am sure there is an effect but how does this explain Japan's rise or CHina's? they grew by exporting over large distances - it feels unconvincing and rather too deterministic - how will Nigeria become a major economy if it's richest continental neighbour, South Africa, is thousands of miles away?
    The gravity model of international trade is an empirical fact based on observed trade flows. Its weakness is there is no real theoretical basis for it, but it works. Nigeria has oil; China discovered capitalism. I'm not sure either is greatly relevant.

    Now, I am not an economist -- just one first year university course (which it turns out is all you need for a PPE, despite its name making it sound like it is one third of each subject) so do not claim to be an expert. This is (or appears to be) how international trade works. Even after Brexit, most of our trade will be with the EU because it is right next to us and Australia and America are bleeding miles away and Liam Fox can't alter that.
    I won't dispute an evidence-based model that is successfully predictive (assuming this model is, rather than purely explanatory of historical data - as one can create a model to fit any historical data set).

    However, it does beg all sorts of questions, such as do the historical factors (e.g. cost of transport, does the data set bias towards goods over services) that made the historical data set fit this model still hold? Are there new disruptive technologies that will break the model? How would things like internet sales of services, bespoke production of high value goods such as genes/personalized medicines etc... impact this model going forward?

    I strikes me that the model is intuitively true for bulky items and items that spoil. It is not so intuitive for things that are cheap/free to transport, are very high value-added, or have high IP content, i.e. the products of the knowledge economy.

    But then, there is a model to explain where IP gets created, and that, too, is local.

    PS One final thought, I guess what it comes down to is what is distance in an internet age? Is it miles, or is it accessibility to others sharing the same interests and needs?
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    Fenman said:

    Scott_P said:
    I guess because geographically, nothing is changing?
    Indeed. Last time I checked Singapore is neither in a political nor a customs union with its neighbouring nations whom it is trading with. Yet somehow it survives. Funny that!
    Its citizens are hard working, intelligent and well-educated. I rest my case.
    Dyson said the decision was based on the availability of engineering talent, regional supply chains and proximity to some key target markets.

    However, it seems his plan was to have solid state batteries but the technology is not sufficiently developed and he will just have the same lihium batteries as everyone else - so no competitive advantage.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited October 2018
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    O/T Two more US Senate races seem to be resolving themselves, with new polls showing Nelson 6% and 8% ahead in Florida, and Cramer 16% ahead in North Dakota.

    ND looks like a sure Republican gain, Florida and West Virginia sure Democratic holds.

    As a counterfactual, if Hilary Clinton had won in 2016, the Republicans would be on course to gain about 10 Senate seats.
    Indeed, if Hillary had won the Democrats would likely be facing a thumping defeat in the midterms rather than likely taking the House and even making gains in the Senate
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    El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 3,870

    Following the principle of power sharing I would say to Barnier we will only agree to an NI-specific deal that has the backing of Sinn Fein, the SDLP, Alliance, UUP and DUP. The DUP then have a veto on any deal and so being part of the government block is moot. I would insist the integrity of our union is as sacrosanct as the integrity of theirs.

    The SDLP and UUP should be given a veto? Interesting idea. Any other dead parties that ought to have their say? The SDP? The Whigs? The People's Front of Judea?
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,005
    edited October 2018
    Brom said:

    Going back to the size of the march, here's a pretty conclusive indication that it was massive and in line with the size the organisers' claimed.

    https://twitter.com/Aidan4Europe/status/1054104612570050561

    Anything comparable in the public domain for the other two big marches?

    Though I somewhat doubt there were half the 700,000 the organisers suggested (judging by aerial shots) and indeed the fact the Police didnt back up the People's Vote figure suggests it was a very high estimate.
    What surprises me is why this march is so late, it feels like the 2nd referendum opportunity has almost sailed and that a big rally would have been far more productive 6 months ago. With a likely deal on the horizon it's hard to foresee anything other than deal or no deal unless you're the most optimistic remainer.
    If No Deal and negotiations collapse in November I could easily see 2 million marching in the New Year for another referendum and the 'People's Vote' march overtaking the anti Iraq War march as the biggest march in post War UK history.

    I might even march myself were that the case
This discussion has been closed.