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  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:




    Would only be an exact analogy if it were 20% of Quebec spoke French.

    The minority language in both places is spoken by 20 per cent of the people.
    Indeed. And my comment was not intended to be anti Welsh.
    But French is the majority language in Quebec.

    I was simply comparing the attitude of the English-speakers when they are in a majority as compared to when they are in a minority.

    The attitude is the same, everyone should speak English.

    The Quebecois routinely complain that the English in Quebec are the best treated minority in the world. I sympathise with the Quebecois.
  • Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:



    I don't believe in using government subsidy to prop up Welsh to a status beyond it's natural position. Its not an issue of cultural homogenisation, but fiscal rectitude.


    Hilarious .. "it's natural position" .. you seem to have enough difficulty with English.

    And then "Its not " fails to have an apostrophe!!
    As I’ve proved, English is a sufficiently difficult language to learn as it is.

    Incidentally, I don’t see Gaelic translations across Scotland. I wonder why Welsh is so fetishised across the nation?
    You've not been on ScotRail - virtually every station in the Central Belt and south of there has a Gaelic name on the platform signs.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:



    I don't believe in using government subsidy to prop up Welsh to a status beyond it's natural position. Its not an issue of cultural homogenisation, but fiscal rectitude.


    Hilarious .. "it's natural position" .. you seem to have enough difficulty with English.

    And then "Its not " fails to have an apostrophe!!
    As I’ve proved, English is a sufficiently difficult language to learn as it is.

    Incidentally, I don’t see Gaelic translations across Scotland. I wonder why Welsh is so fetishised across the nation?
    I had two Welsh teachers in my comprehensive school that were quite fanatical about it... one delighted in telling us a story about going to the bank and demanding a Welsh language teller to serve him "as was his right"

    Quite frankly the attitude from that and other incidents was just off putting.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835
    rpjs said:

    ]

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing I noted about signs - in wales the roads are doubled up STOP/ARAF, but in France it it not "arretez" used on stop signs, but STOP !

    I find it highly amusing that Quebec mandates "Arrêt" on its stop signs but France doesn't.
    But Quebeckers don't really speak French. They speak Quebecois.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:



    I don't believe in using government subsidy to prop up Welsh to a status beyond it's natural position. Its not an issue of cultural homogenisation, but fiscal rectitude.


    Hilarious .. "it's natural position" .. you seem to have enough difficulty with English.

    And then "Its not " fails to have an apostrophe!!
    As I’ve proved, English is a sufficiently difficult language to learn as it is.

    Incidentally, I don’t see Gaelic translations across Scotland. I wonder why Welsh is so fetishised across the nation?
    You've not been on ScotRail - virtually every station in the Central Belt and south of there has a Gaelic name on the platform signs.
    I suspect Mortimer has not left his Shropshire bunker for a long time.

    He will be quite shocked to learn that Queen Victoria has passed away.
  • shiney2shiney2 Posts: 672
    HYUFD said:

    shiney2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Portillo says May's Deal worse than remaining in the EU on This Week, says the Cabinet must remove her

    Actually he said it was a false choice, but don't let a verifiable fact stop you..
    It is not a false choice as that is the only Deal the EU will offer and No Deal is worse than both
    So: *he* didn't say " its a false choice" on recorded TV because of something else you believe.

    Just as well you don't believe in faeries or we'd all need to say magic exists.
  • TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:




    Would only be an exact analogy if it were 20% of Quebec spoke French.

    The minority language in both places is spoken by 20 per cent of the people.
    Indeed. And my comment was not intended to be anti Welsh.
    But French is the majority language in Quebec.

    I was simply comparing the attitude of the English-speakers when they are in a majority as compared to when they are in a minority.

    The attitude is the same, everyone should speak English.

    The Quebecois routinely complain that the English in Quebec are the best treated minority in the world. I sympathise with the Quebecois.
    Yes but us English speakers struggle with other languages, we need you clever bilingual sorts to put out a bit more than we would ;)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    dixiedean said:

    rpjs said:

    ]

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing I noted about signs - in wales the roads are doubled up STOP/ARAF, but in France it it not "arretez" used on stop signs, but STOP !

    I find it highly amusing that Quebec mandates "Arrêt" on its stop signs but France doesn't.
    But Quebeckers don't really speak French. They speak Quebecois.
    I once went interrailing with a lovely girl from Quebec. She'd dreamed all her life of going to France, and as we traveled through Italy she was getting more and more excited about finally arriving in France.

    In Nice, it was OK. She would speak to people in French, and they'd reply in English (which annoyed her), but she loved being there.

    And then we got to Paris. After about 12 hours she told me "I hate this place, we have to leave right now".
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,835

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:




    Would only be an exact analogy if it were 20% of Quebec spoke French.

    The minority language in both places is spoken by 20 per cent of the people.
    Indeed. And my comment was not intended to be anti Welsh.
    But French is the majority language in Quebec.

    I was simply comparing the attitude of the English-speakers when they are in a majority as compared to when they are in a minority.

    The attitude is the same, everyone should speak English.

    The Quebecois routinely complain that the English in Quebec are the best treated minority in the world. I sympathise with the Quebecois.
    Yep.They have a point . Don't tell my Western Canada family ...
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    rcs1000 said:

    dixiedean said:

    rpjs said:

    ]

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing I noted about signs - in wales the roads are doubled up STOP/ARAF, but in France it it not "arretez" used on stop signs, but STOP !

    I find it highly amusing that Quebec mandates "Arrêt" on its stop signs but France doesn't.
    But Quebeckers don't really speak French. They speak Quebecois.
    I once went interrailing with a lovely girl from Quebec. She'd dreamed all her life of going to France, and as we traveled through Italy she was getting more and more excited about finally arriving in France.

    In Nice, it was OK. She would speak to people in French, and they'd reply in English (which annoyed her), but she loved being there.

    And then we got to Paris. After about 12 hours she told me "I hate this place, we have to leave right now".
    That is correct. The French think the Quebecois speak some bastardised form of French.

    The Quebecois have never really forgiven the French for the Louisiana Purchase. Ils nous ont oubliés, as one of my Quebecois friend said. They forgot about us.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Scott_P said:

    When the story of Brexit is written, the change of editor at the Daily Mail may prove to be decisive

    And their circulation is up
    No that can't be right Big_G - because we were assured their editorial line would change back to headbanger Brexit as their circulation declined.


    Or could it just be that DM readers actually quite admire TMay and respect loyalty?
    The stocks were sold, the press was squared. The middle class was quite prepared
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    Hello from LA.

    Immediately after the referendum, Mrs May and her Ministers went on a charm offensive. They went to visit the car companies, they went to visit big financial services firms and other manufacturers.

    They told all and sundry that Britain remained open for business, that they could (and should) continue to have their European headquarters in Britain, and that the government would be extremely supportive of business's needs.

    Their concern was that large firms would defer investment decisions, or - in extremis - reduce their UK presence.

    This publicity drive was the reason that the government made no preparations for No Deal. They couldn't risk scaring the people they'd told there would be a deal.

    The government put themselves in a very difficult position. If they hadn't made the efforts with business, well maybe some people would have gone. Certainly, the possibility of an abrupt exit from the EU's rules on avoiding withholding taxes and double taxation would have had a negative effect on firms where the UK entity was the holding company for all the European assets.

    But in doing this, they made it very hard to walk away from the negotiating table with the EU. They'd committed themselves to a deal. They'd committed themselves to no preparation for No Deal. This wasn't an act of secret EU Remainers, it was the act of a government seeking to allay the concerns of business in the immediate post Brexit period.

    I don't know how the circle could be easily squared. Perhaps the post Brexit referendum resilience of the UK economy is at least partly due to the reassurances given to the business community, and perhaps it isn't that all.
  • HYUFD said:

    shiney2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    shiney2 said:

    This Week considers Brexit:.. there is no way yada yada.

    Perfect.

    The Peoples' LEAVE is coming..

    Portillo seemed to think it will play out as I suggested which is that the Cabinet, realizing that the deal is dead and the DUP are going to pull the plug, will then step in and tell May to resign as she's lost their confidence.
    And afterwards?

    The ERG pulled back today
    In what way?

    It appears they tried to launch a VONC and don't (yet) have the numbers to pass the first hurdle....
  • rcs1000 said:

    Hello from LA.

    Immediately after the referendum, Mrs May and her Ministers went on a charm offensive. They went to visit the car companies, they went to visit big financial services firms and other manufacturers.

    They told all and sundry that Britain remained open for business, that they could (and should) continue to have their European headquarters in Britain, and that the government would be extremely supportive of business's needs.

    Their concern was that large firms would defer investment decisions, or - in extremis - reduce their UK presence.

    This publicity drive was the reason that the government made no preparations for No Deal. They couldn't risk scaring the people they'd told there would be a deal.

    The government put themselves in a very difficult position. If they hadn't made the efforts with business, well maybe some people would have gone. Certainly, the possibility of an abrupt exit from the EU's rules on avoiding withholding taxes and double taxation would have had a negative effect on firms where the UK entity was the holding company for all the European assets.

    But in doing this, they made it very hard to walk away from the negotiating table with the EU. They'd committed themselves to a deal. They'd committed themselves to no preparation for No Deal. This wasn't an act of secret EU Remainers, it was the act of a government seeking to allay the concerns of business in the immediate post Brexit period.

    I don't know how the circle could be easily squared. Perhaps the post Brexit referendum resilience of the UK economy is at least partly due to the reassurances given to the business community, and perhaps it isn't that all.

    Well yes. May's Deal is the Nissan ' Comfort letter ' erected into an International Treaty. All else flows from there.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    shiney2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    shiney2 said:

    This Week considers Brexit:.. there is no way yada yada.

    Perfect.

    The Peoples' LEAVE is coming..

    Portillo seemed to think it will play out as I suggested which is that the Cabinet, realizing that the deal is dead and the DUP are going to pull the plug, will then step in and tell May to resign as she's lost their confidence.
    And afterwards?

    The ERG pulled back today
    In what way?

    It appears they tried to launch a VONC and don't (yet) have the numbers to pass the first hurdle....
    As they know May would win the main vote
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    shiney2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    shiney2 said:

    This Week considers Brexit:.. there is no way yada yada.

    Perfect.

    The Peoples' LEAVE is coming..

    Portillo seemed to think it will play out as I suggested which is that the Cabinet, realizing that the deal is dead and the DUP are going to pull the plug, will then step in and tell May to resign as she's lost their confidence.
    And afterwards?

    The ERG pulled back today
    In what way?

    It appears they tried to launch a VONC and don't (yet) have the numbers to pass the first hurdle....
    As they know May would win the main vote
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766

    HYUFD said:

    shiney2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    shiney2 said:

    This Week considers Brexit:.. there is no way yada yada.

    Perfect.

    The Peoples' LEAVE is coming..

    Portillo seemed to think it will play out as I suggested which is that the Cabinet, realizing that the deal is dead and the DUP are going to pull the plug, will then step in and tell May to resign as she's lost their confidence.
    And afterwards?

    The ERG pulled back today
    In what way?

    It appears they tried to launch a VONC and don't (yet) have the numbers to pass the first hurdle....
    It's notable that a number of ERG members are "reluctantly" backing the deal.
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    rcs1000 said:

    dixiedean said:

    rpjs said:

    ]

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing I noted about signs - in wales the roads are doubled up STOP/ARAF, but in France it it not "arretez" used on stop signs, but STOP !

    I find it highly amusing that Quebec mandates "Arrêt" on its stop signs but France doesn't.
    But Quebeckers don't really speak French. They speak Quebecois.
    I once went interrailing with a lovely girl from Quebec. She'd dreamed all her life of going to France, and as we traveled through Italy she was getting more and more excited about finally arriving in France.

    In Nice, it was OK. She would speak to people in French, and they'd reply in English (which annoyed her), but she loved being there.

    And then we got to Paris. After about 12 hours she told me "I hate this place, we have to leave right now".
    To be fair, there’s plenty of French people who’d say the same after 12 hours in Paris. (And English in London and Americans in New York.)
  • rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787

    rcs1000 said:

    dixiedean said:

    rpjs said:

    ]

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing I noted about signs - in wales the roads are doubled up STOP/ARAF, but in France it it not "arretez" used on stop signs, but STOP !

    I find it highly amusing that Quebec mandates "Arrêt" on its stop signs but France doesn't.
    But Quebeckers don't really speak French. They speak Quebecois.
    I once went interrailing with a lovely girl from Quebec. She'd dreamed all her life of going to France, and as we traveled through Italy she was getting more and more excited about finally arriving in France.

    In Nice, it was OK. She would speak to people in French, and they'd reply in English (which annoyed her), but she loved being there.

    And then we got to Paris. After about 12 hours she told me "I hate this place, we have to leave right now".
    That is correct. The French think the Quebecois speak some bastardised form of French.

    The Quebecois have never really forgiven the French for the Louisiana Purchase. Ils nous ont oubliés, as one of my Quebecois friend said. They forgot about us.
    Quebec number plates bear the provincial motto: “Je Me Souviens”.
  • HYUFD said:

    shiney2 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Portillo says May's Deal worse than remaining in the EU on This Week, says the Cabinet must remove her

    Actually he said it was a false choice, but don't let a verifiable fact stop you..
    It is not a false choice as that is the only Deal the EU will offer and No Deal is worse than both
    It would be really interesting to see some polling on what people support if they can't get their first choice - in particular, how many May-Barnier supporters prefer Remain to No Deal, and how many No Deal supporters prefer Remain to May-Barnier.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    shiney2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    shiney2 said:

    This Week considers Brexit:.. there is no way yada yada.

    Perfect.

    The Peoples' LEAVE is coming..

    Portillo seemed to think it will play out as I suggested which is that the Cabinet, realizing that the deal is dead and the DUP are going to pull the plug, will then step in and tell May to resign as she's lost their confidence.
    And afterwards?

    The ERG pulled back today
    In what way?

    It appears they tried to launch a VONC and don't (yet) have the numbers to pass the first hurdle....
    As they know May would win the main vote
    So why did JRM send his letter in and hold a press conference about it?

    If they can't get the numbers after the last two days they'll be a laughing stock.....
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    @Mortimer - it’s very depressing to read your posts about the Welsh language. I would hope that somebody with an interest in the history of this country would realise that the English/British government had policies for centuries designed to drive Welsh from the public sphere. It is hardly unreasonable that we now have government efforts to try to reverse some of the damage.

    Your comment about Welsh not being a live language is utterly wrong. I have Welsh relatives with ages from under 10 to over 90, and they can and do speak Welsh to each other.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    RoyalBlue said:

    @Mortimer - it’s very depressing to read your posts about the Welsh language. I would hope that somebody with an interest in the history of this country would realise that the English/British government had policies for centuries designed to drive Welsh from the public sphere. It is hardly unreasonable that we now have government efforts to try to reverse some of the damage.

    Your comment about Welsh not being a live language is utterly wrong. I have Welsh relatives with ages from under 10 to over 90, and they can and do speak Welsh to each other.

    Hear hear, too often we have seen the destruction of cultural diversity around the world and although I am English, everwhere I go it is steamrolling indigenous languages and cultures in its path.....everyone loses if we start ignoring heritages......
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    I wonder how the ERgGwill go down in history......I suspect in 3 years time no-one will have ever heard of them, whereas John Major's bastards - now that was a label with legs...
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited November 2018

    I wonder how the ERgGwill go down in history......I suspect in 3 years time no-one will have ever heard of them, whereas John Major's bastards - now that was a label with legs...
    How many times have they promised they're about to reach 48 letters? It seems like every other day.
  • RoyalBlue said:

    I have Welsh relatives with ages from under 10 to over 90, and they can and do speak Welsh to each other.

    My Scottish cousin has a Welsh wife - their household is fully bilingual as are their children.

    I have less sympathy for the Scottish government's teaching of Gaelic throughout Scotland as by the 14th century it had largely been replaced by Scots in all but the Highlands. My grandmother's generation had a very low opinion of Gaelic speakers. That's more of an exhumation than a revival.
  • Silent night, holy night
    All is calm and all is bright
    Round yon virgin, mother and child
    Holy infant, so tender and mild
    Sleep in heavenly peace, ooh
    Sleep, sleep in heaven, heavenly peace
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    AndyJS said:
    The rumours and accusations go deeper than that: why wasn't this new behaviour it in the manual?

    Allegedly, Boeing sold the 737 Max on the concept that no new training or simulator time would be required; pilots would just transition from the old-gen to the new-gen. This makes buying the new type cheaper and easier for airlines who currently have the 737.

    However if this new flight behaviour was disclosed, it is possible it may have forced pilots to have training and simulator work to learn how to cope with it.

    If true, that means Boeing kept the new behaviour out of the manuals because it may have affected sales. It's certainly a more interesting theory than their current excuse ...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    AndyJS said:
    The rumours and accusations go deeper than that: why wasn't this new behaviour it in the manual?

    Allegedly, Boeing sold the 737 Max on the concept that no new training or simulator time would be required; pilots would just transition from the old-gen to the new-gen. This makes buying the new type cheaper and easier for airlines who currently have the 737.

    However if this new flight behaviour was disclosed, it is possible it may have forced pilots to have training and simulator work to learn how to cope with it.

    If true, that means Boeing kept the new behaviour out of the manuals because it may have affected sales. It's certainly a more interesting theory than their current excuse ...
    Any idea the last time a major airline manufacturer was liable for a crash?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:
    The rumours and accusations go deeper than that: why wasn't this new behaviour it in the manual?

    Allegedly, Boeing sold the 737 Max on the concept that no new training or simulator time would be required; pilots would just transition from the old-gen to the new-gen. This makes buying the new type cheaper and easier for airlines who currently have the 737.

    However if this new flight behaviour was disclosed, it is possible it may have forced pilots to have training and simulator work to learn how to cope with it.

    If true, that means Boeing kept the new behaviour out of the manuals because it may have affected sales. It's certainly a more interesting theory than their current excuse ...
    Any idea the last time a major airline manufacturer was liable for a crash?
    Boeing has been circulating this chart: https://i2.wp.com/thepointsguy.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Boeing.jpg?fit=2048,2048px&ssl=1

    I suspect that the B737-Max number would look a lot worse if it was brought up to date.

    (On which note, I like the way that Boeing splits the 737 fleet up so it appears better than the A320 series.)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,517
    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:
    The rumours and accusations go deeper than that: why wasn't this new behaviour it in the manual?

    Allegedly, Boeing sold the 737 Max on the concept that no new training or simulator time would be required; pilots would just transition from the old-gen to the new-gen. This makes buying the new type cheaper and easier for airlines who currently have the 737.

    However if this new flight behaviour was disclosed, it is possible it may have forced pilots to have training and simulator work to learn how to cope with it.

    If true, that means Boeing kept the new behaviour out of the manuals because it may have affected sales. It's certainly a more interesting theory than their current excuse ...
    Any idea the last time a major airline manufacturer was liable for a crash?
    I don't know, but here's one where Airbus were found co-guilty in court:
    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-crash-trial/airbus-and-air-france-held-liable-for-1992-crash

    Perhaps the most famous one for Boeing was the incorrect repair that caused a JAL crash, although I think they just admitted liability and it never went to court:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_123
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435

    RobD said:

    AndyJS said:
    The rumours and accusations go deeper than that: why wasn't this new behaviour it in the manual?

    Allegedly, Boeing sold the 737 Max on the concept that no new training or simulator time would be required; pilots would just transition from the old-gen to the new-gen. This makes buying the new type cheaper and easier for airlines who currently have the 737.

    However if this new flight behaviour was disclosed, it is possible it may have forced pilots to have training and simulator work to learn how to cope with it.

    If true, that means Boeing kept the new behaviour out of the manuals because it may have affected sales. It's certainly a more interesting theory than their current excuse ...
    Any idea the last time a major airline manufacturer was liable for a crash?
    I don't know, but here's one where Airbus were found co-guilty in court:
    https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-france-crash-trial/airbus-and-air-france-held-liable-for-1992-crash

    Perhaps the most famous one for Boeing was the incorrect repair that caused a JAL crash, although I think they just admitted liability and it never went to court:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Airlines_Flight_123
    If this had been a European flight that had suffered this sort of malfunction.......there would be massive interest and questions in parliament etc, unfortunately Indonesian aircrashes/tpt disasters are too common for editors to become really interested......- well done for following up
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    I wonder what the odds on serial back-stabber Michael Gove changing the habits of a lifetime? Several hundred to one I'd guess. If he's not the next rat off this sinking ship it can only be because someone's beat him to it. This is nothing to do with Brexit and all to do with a Tory leadership contest
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    edited November 2018

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing I noted about signs - in wales the roads are doubled up STOP/ARAF, but in France it it not "arretez" used on stop signs, but STOP !

    It is Araf/Stop.

    Araf comes first.
    Not always:

    image
    Interesting. Where I live Araf comes first.
    Araf is first, assuming the car is driving on the left, and not in reverse.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    edited November 2018
    On the Cote d'Azur the number of French who speak English has reached epidemic proportions but what I didn't realize till last week-end was that it has now spread to Paris.

    It was difficult to order a drink in French without being answered in English.

    A pity really and one of the few downsides of the EU bringing us closer together.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    Roger said:

    On the Cote d'Azur the number of French who speak English has reached epidemic proportions but what I didn't realize till last week-end was that it has now spread to Paris.

    It was difficult to order a drink in French without being answered in English.

    A pity really and one of the few downsides of the EU bringing us closer together.

    Nah, they just know your English and are being accommodating.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing I noted about signs - in wales the roads are doubled up STOP/ARAF, but in France it it not "arretez" used on stop signs, but STOP !

    It is Araf/Stop.

    Araf comes first.
    Not always:

    image
    Interesting. Where I live Araf comes first.
    Araf is first, assuming the car is driving on the left, and not in reverse.
    Road markings are read top to bottom (see you nearest bus stop). The reverse is true in the US though.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    Don't let great be the enemy of good
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing I noted about signs - in wales the roads are doubled up STOP/ARAF, but in France it it not "arretez" used on stop signs, but STOP !

    It is Araf/Stop.

    Araf comes first.
    Not always:

    image
    Interesting. Where I live Araf comes first.
    Araf is first, assuming the car is driving on the left, and not in reverse.
    Road markings are read top to bottom (see you nearest bus stop). The reverse is true in the US though.
    Yeah, I hate that (in America ).

    And "PED XING". WTF does that mean?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    I think she's the best Tory leader since Heath. Always calm and always polite which is quite an achievement when faced with the nastiest bunch of self serving narcissists I can ever remember in all the time I've been interested in politics. How she has the energy and will is beyond me.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,569
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing I noted about signs - in wales the roads are doubled up STOP/ARAF, but in France it it not "arretez" used on stop signs, but STOP !

    It is Araf/Stop.

    Araf comes first.
    Not always:

    image
    Interesting. Where I live Araf comes first.
    Araf is first, assuming the car is driving on the left, and not in reverse.
    Road markings are read top to bottom (see you nearest bus stop). The reverse is true in the US though.
    Yeah, I hate that (in America ).

    And "PED XING". WTF does that mean?
    Obvious, surely ?

    In any event, the right turn on red is one of the glories of western civilisation.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    tlg86 said:

    Roger said:

    On the Cote d'Azur the number of French who speak English has reached epidemic proportions but what I didn't realize till last week-end was that it has now spread to Paris.

    It was difficult to order a drink in French without being answered in English.

    A pity really and one of the few downsides of the EU bringing us closer together.

    Nah, they just know your English and are being accommodating.
    I know but what's happened to their spiky arrogance? The wonderful thing that made Parisiennes Parisienne.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,738
    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing I noted about signs - in wales the roads are doubled up STOP/ARAF, but in France it it not "arretez" used on stop signs, but STOP !

    It is Araf/Stop.

    Araf comes first.
    Not always:

    image
    Interesting. Where I live Araf comes first.
    Araf is first, assuming the car is driving on the left, and not in reverse.
    Technically of course neither is correct because it should be 'arafwch.'
  • Roger said:

    How she has the energy and will is beyond me.
    David Allan Green made an interesting observation - what have been weaknesses up to now - detail orientation, stubbornness, determination - could now be great strengths in getting the UK out of the EU in an orderly manner next March. She knows this stuff inside out and back to front - and politely points out the flaws in the unicorn-chasers' "plans". She thinks she's got the best plan available under the circumstances - ending FOM without trashing the economy - which will deliver a Brexit deal most could live with, and by god she'll drive it through.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Roger said:

    On the Cote d'Azur the number of French who speak English has reached epidemic proportions but what I didn't realize till last week-end was that it has now spread to Paris.

    It was difficult to order a drink in French without being answered in English.

    A pity really and one of the few downsides of the EU bringing us closer together.

    It was like that when I worked in Paris over 10 years ago. You must live in a very odd bubble.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    Pulpstar said:

    One thing I noted about signs - in wales the roads are doubled up Slow/araf, but in France it it not "arretez" used on stop signs, but STOP !

    In Quebec they, unlike France, don’t use “Stop” as it’s too English. Unfortunately their French is like something put through a blender (and I speak French with a Marseilles accent so can hardly take the high moral ground). Plus the whole province smells of maple syrup and icing sugar. One’s teeth rot merely stepping outside.

    Much like the Unionists in Ulster long for a Britain which they are now completely distinct from, so it is with the Québécois and France.
  • rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    shiney2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    shiney2 said:

    This Week considers Brexit:.. there is no way yada yada.

    Perfect.

    The Peoples' LEAVE is coming..

    Portillo seemed to think it will play out as I suggested which is that the Cabinet, realizing that the deal is dead and the DUP are going to pull the plug, will then step in and tell May to resign as she's lost their confidence.
    And afterwards?

    The ERG pulled back today
    In what way?

    It appears they tried to launch a VONC and don't (yet) have the numbers to pass the first hurdle....
    It's notable that a number of ERG members are "reluctantly" backing the deal.
    Given the state of opinion in the country, and the preparedness of the UK, my view is that if we don’t back this we’ll end up back in the EU, either by Parliamentary mechanisms and a GE or as an inevitable outcome of No Deal, which simply doesn’t command enough support.

    I’m not happy about it but the imperative for me is for us to quit the EU’s political structures and institutions and for Brexit to take real effect in a sustainable way. The longer it is, the more normified it will be and the harder it will be to take us back in.

    Worth remembering too that nothing is forever, including this, and it can and will be superseded in the future if the politics demands it.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Hello from LA.

    Immediately after the referendum, Mrs May and her Ministers went on a charm offensive. They went to visit the car companies, they went to visit big financial services firms and other manufacturers.

    They told all and sundry that Britain remained open for business, that they could (and should) continue to have their European headquarters in Britain, and that the government would be extremely supportive of business's needs.

    Their concern was that large firms would defer investment decisions, or - in extremis - reduce their UK presence.

    This publicity drive was the reason that the government made no preparations for No Deal. They couldn't risk scaring the people they'd told there would be a deal.

    The government put themselves in a very difficult position. If they hadn't made the efforts with business, well maybe some people would have gone. Certainly, the possibility of an abrupt exit from the EU's rules on avoiding withholding taxes and double taxation would have had a negative effect on firms where the UK entity was the holding company for all the European assets.

    But in doing this, they made it very hard to walk away from the negotiating table with the EU. They'd committed themselves to a deal. They'd committed themselves to no preparation for No Deal. This wasn't an act of secret EU Remainers, it was the act of a government seeking to allay the concerns of business in the immediate post Brexit period.

    I don't know how the circle could be easily squared. Perhaps the post Brexit referendum resilience of the UK economy is at least partly due to the reassurances given to the business community, and perhaps it isn't that all.

    I don’t think it’s a conspiracy. I do think it’s symptomatic of the innate conservatism (small c) and risk aversion of the civil service, which rears itself in all aspects of Government policy.

    I think a braver leader would have told business they’d seriously prepare for no deal from the start, and to be prepared for that outcome but, that wasn’t what they wanted, and they were doing it to put maximum pressure on the EU for the best deal possible.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    Roger said:

    On the Cote d'Azur the number of French who speak English has reached epidemic proportions but what I didn't realize till last week-end was that it has now spread to Paris.

    It was difficult to order a drink in French without being answered in English.

    A pity really and one of the few downsides of the EU bringing us closer together.

    English is the first language in the western world with Spanish a close second. French does not come close.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    shiney2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    shiney2 said:

    This Week considers Brexit:.. there is no way yada yada.

    Perfect.

    The Peoples' LEAVE is coming..

    Portillo seemed to think it will play out as I suggested which is that the Cabinet, realizing that the deal is dead and the DUP are going to pull the plug, will then step in and tell May to resign as she's lost their confidence.
    And afterwards?

    The ERG pulled back today
    In what way?

    It appears they tried to launch a VONC and don't (yet) have the numbers to pass the first hurdle....
    It's notable that a number of ERG members are "reluctantly" backing the deal.
    Given the state of opinion in the country, and the preparedness of the UK, my view is that if we don’t back this we’ll end up back in the EU, either by Parliamentary mechanisms and a GE or as an inevitable outcome of No Deal, which simply doesn’t command enough support.

    I’m not happy about it but the imperative for me is for us to quit the EU’s political structures and institutions and for Brexit to take real effect in a sustainable way. The longer it is, the more normified it will be and the harder it will be to take us back in.

    Worth remembering too that nothing is forever, including this, and it can and will be superseded in the future if the politics demands it.
    Agreed - and actually if Gove goes, which is likely, I think remain and a second referendum will be odds on as even Jeremy Corbyn PM would be unable to stop.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Exactly my point and reason for my incredulity.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1063218582174224384?s=19

    Had May not royally f###ed up an unscheduled and unnecessary election throwing away both Cameron's majority and an over 20% lead they would be in no place to make any demands. If the DUP demand May's head on a silver platter that is no more than karmic justice for what she did last year.
    Most Tory MPs will tell the DUP to sod off rather than having their leader dictated to them even if it requires a general election
    'Most Tory MPs' won't command the majority of the House of Commons.
    'All Tory MPs' won't either.
    Well if the DUP dictate who the Tory leader is they control not just the House of Commons but the Tory Party too and that is unacceptable for a party with just over a third of votes even in NI
    The DUP are the NI ERG but, unlike them, they follow through.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    shiney2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    shiney2 said:

    This Week considers Brexit:.. there is no way yada yada.

    Perfect.

    The Peoples' LEAVE is coming..

    Portillo seemed to think it will play out as I suggested which is that the Cabinet, realizing that the deal is dead and the DUP are going to pull the plug, will then step in and tell May to resign as she's lost their confidence.
    And afterwards?

    The ERG pulled back today
    In what way?

    It appears they tried to launch a VONC and don't (yet) have the numbers to pass the first hurdle....
    It's notable that a number of ERG members are "reluctantly" backing the deal.
    Given the state of opinion in the country, and the preparedness of the UK, my view is that if we don’t back this we’ll end up back in the EU, either by Parliamentary mechanisms and a GE or as an inevitable outcome of No Deal, which simply doesn’t command enough support.

    I’m not happy about it but the imperative for me is for us to quit the EU’s political structures and institutions and for Brexit to take real effect in a sustainable way. The longer it is, the more normified it will be and the harder it will be to take us back in.

    Worth remembering too that nothing is forever, including this, and it can and will be superseded in the future if the politics demands it.
    Why is it imperative? We've been in for decades and I've not noticed any particular drawback. If you think we would be better off out I am happy to listen. But it is now pretty obvious that rushing the leaving process is pretty sub optimal.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    edited November 2018
    Roger said:

    I think she's the best Tory leader since Heath. Always calm and always polite which is quite an achievement when faced with the nastiest bunch of self serving narcissists I can ever remember in all the time I've been interested in politics. How she has the energy and will is beyond me.
    Thatcher was far and away the best PM (and Tory leader) in my lifetime. Heath was the worst - he took the UK into the EEC in the first place. Eden was also a disaster, but I only read about Suez many years after it happened.
  • rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    shiney2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    shiney2 said:

    This Week considers Brexit:.. there is no way yada yada.

    Perfect.

    The Peoples' LEAVE is coming..

    Portillo seemed to think it will play out as I suggested which is that the Cabinet, realizing that the deal is dead and the DUP are going to pull the plug, will then step in and tell May to resign as she's lost their confidence.
    And afterwards?

    The ERG pulled back today
    In what way?

    It appears they tried to launch a VONC and don't (yet) have the numbers to pass the first hurdle....
    It's notable that a number of ERG members are "reluctantly" backing the deal.
    Given the state of opinion in the country, and the preparedness of the UK, my view is that if we don’t back this we’ll end up back in the EU, either by Parliamentary mechanisms and a GE or as an inevitable outcome of No Deal, which simply doesn’t command enough support.

    I’m not happy about it but the imperative for me is for us to quit the EU’s political structures and institutions and for Brexit to take real effect in a sustainable way. The longer it is, the more normified it will be and the harder it will be to take us back in.

    Worth remembering too that nothing is forever, including this, and it can and will be superseded in the future if the politics demands it.
    Why is it imperative? We've been in for decades and I've not noticed any particular drawback. If you think we would be better off out I am happy to listen. But it is now pretty obvious that rushing the leaving process is pretty sub optimal.
    I’m not debating Brexit with you all over again.

    I am stating my position on the deal. As a very strong Remainer, it’s obvious what your game is as it should be obvious to the purer eurosceptics who are letting emotion cloud their judgement.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821

    Roger said:

    How she has the energy and will is beyond me.
    David Allan Green made an interesting observation - what have been weaknesses up to now - detail orientation, stubbornness, determination - could now be great strengths in getting the UK out of the EU in an orderly manner next March. She knows this stuff inside out and back to front - and politely points out the flaws in the unicorn-chasers' "plans". She thinks she's got the best plan available under the circumstances - ending FOM without trashing the economy - which will deliver a Brexit deal most could live with, and by god she'll drive it through.
    The issue with the deal is that it will lead to a perpetual vassal status for the UK vis-a-vis the EU, and thus prevents independent freedom of action regarding commerce and trade deals.


  • felix said:

    Roger said:

    On the Cote d'Azur the number of French who speak English has reached epidemic proportions but what I didn't realize till last week-end was that it has now spread to Paris.

    It was difficult to order a drink in French without being answered in English.

    A pity really and one of the few downsides of the EU bringing us closer together.

    English is the first language in the western world with Spanish a close second. French does not come close.
    President Macron, while plugging La Francophonie, is also trying to improve English lessons in French schools.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/20/macron-launches-drive-to-boost-french-language-around-world

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/11/france-encourage-children-watch-cartoons-english-drive-improve/
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    shiney2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    shiney2 said:

    This Week considers Brexit:.. there is no way yada yada.

    Perfect.

    The Peoples' LEAVE is coming..

    Portillo seemed to think it will play out as I suggested which is that the Cabinet, realizing that the deal is dead and the DUP are going to pull the plug, will then step in and tell May to resign as she's lost their confidence.
    And afterwards?

    The ERG pulled back today
    In what way?

    It appears they tried to launch a VONC and don't (yet) have the numbers to pass the first hurdle....
    It's notable that a number of ERG members are "reluctantly" backing the deal.
    Given the state of opinion in the country, and the preparedness of the UK, my view is that if we don’t back this we’ll end up back in the EU, either by Parliamentary mechanisms and a GE or as an inevitable outcome of No Deal, which simply doesn’t command enough support.

    I’m not happy about it but the imperative for me is for us to quit the EU’s political structures and institutions and for Brexit to take real effect in a sustainable way. The longer it is, the more normified it will be and the harder it will be to take us back in.

    Worth remembering too that nothing is forever, including this, and it can and will be superseded in the future if the politics demands it.
    Which is why remainers should vote against the deal and sensible leavers support it.
  • Roger said:

    How she has the energy and will is beyond me.
    David Allan Green made an interesting observation - what have been weaknesses up to now - detail orientation, stubbornness, determination - could now be great strengths in getting the UK out of the EU in an orderly manner next March. She knows this stuff inside out and back to front - and politely points out the flaws in the unicorn-chasers' "plans". She thinks she's got the best plan available under the circumstances - ending FOM without trashing the economy - which will deliver a Brexit deal most could live with, and by god she'll drive it through.
    Ending FOM without curbing immigration is the plan.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080

    These resignations confirm a fundamental structural problem with the whole leave prospectus: it was a fantasy, and as such incompatible with the mundane fulfilment of ministerial responsibility. Raab has come to the same conclusion that David Davis and Boris Johnson reached earlier in the year: it is easier to be on the team that accuses the prime minister of failing to deliver majestic herds of unicorns than it is to be stuck with a portfolio that requires expertise in unicorn-breeding
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    Nigelb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing I noted about signs - in wales the roads are doubled up STOP/ARAF, but in France it it not "arretez" used on stop signs, but STOP !

    It is Araf/Stop.

    Araf comes first.
    Not always:

    image
    Interesting. Where I live Araf comes first.
    Araf is first, assuming the car is driving on the left, and not in reverse.
    Road markings are read top to bottom (see you nearest bus stop). The reverse is true in the US though.
    Yeah, I hate that (in America ).

    And "PED XING". WTF does that mean?
    Obvious, surely ?

    In any event, the right turn on red is one of the glories of western civilisation.

    In a land where pedestrians don't matter.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    RobD said:

    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    One thing I noted about signs - in wales the roads are doubled up STOP/ARAF, but in France it it not "arretez" used on stop signs, but STOP !

    It is Araf/Stop.

    Araf comes first.
    Not always:

    image
    Interesting. Where I live Araf comes first.
    Araf is first, assuming the car is driving on the left, and not in reverse.
    Road markings are read top to bottom (see you nearest bus stop). The reverse is true in the US though.
    It's the same word in two different languages. People read whichever comes easier.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Foxy said:

    Alistair said:
    As a matter of interest, how does one do a recount from voting machines?
    Florida is scantron. Paper ballots counted by machine.
  • daodao said:

    Roger said:

    How she has the energy and will is beyond me.
    David Allan Green made an interesting observation - what have been weaknesses up to now - detail orientation, stubbornness, determination - could now be great strengths in getting the UK out of the EU in an orderly manner next March. She knows this stuff inside out and back to front - and politely points out the flaws in the unicorn-chasers' "plans". She thinks she's got the best plan available under the circumstances - ending FOM without trashing the economy - which will deliver a Brexit deal most could live with, and by god she'll drive it through.
    The issue with the deal is that it will lead to a perpetual vassal status for the UK vis-a-vis the EU, and thus prevents independent freedom of action regarding commerce and trade deals.


    That may be true but the Brexiteers never tell us, probably because they've not really thought about it, how these new freedoms are supposed to help us in any way. FTAs are not a panacea, nor are they necessary to trade, but ironically involve agreeing standards and foreign jurisdiction, which is what we are supposed to be escaping.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    On the Cote d'Azur the number of French who speak English has reached epidemic proportions but what I didn't realize till last week-end was that it has now spread to Paris.

    It was difficult to order a drink in French without being answered in English.

    A pity really and one of the few downsides of the EU bringing us closer together.

    English is the first language in the western world with Spanish a close second. French does not come close.
    President Macron, while plugging La Francophonie, is also trying to improve English lessons in French schools.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/20/macron-launches-drive-to-boost-french-language-around-world

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/11/france-encourage-children-watch-cartoons-english-drive-improve/
    Even here in rural SE Spain trying to learn Spanish which I've done since i arrived is difficult when most of the locals want to answer you in English!
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    shiney2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    shiney2 said:

    This Week considers Brexit:.. there is no way yada yada.

    Perfect.

    The Peoples' LEAVE is coming..

    Portillo seemed to think it will play out as I suggested which is that the Cabinet, realizing that the deal is dead and the DUP are going to pull the plug, will then step in and tell May to resign as she's lost their confidence.
    And afterwards?

    The ERG pulled back today
    In what way?

    It appears they tried to launch a VONC and don't (yet) have the numbers to pass the first hurdle....
    It's notable that a number of ERG members are "reluctantly" backing the deal.
    Given the state of opinion in the country, and the preparedness of the UK, my view is that if we don’t back this we’ll end up back in the EU, either by Parliamentary mechanisms and a GE or as an inevitable outcome of No Deal, which simply doesn’t command enough support.

    I’m not happy about it but the imperative for me is for us to quit the EU’s political structures and institutions and for Brexit to take real effect in a sustainable way. The longer it is, the more normified it will be and the harder it will be to take us back in.

    Worth remembering too that nothing is forever, including this, and it can and will be superseded in the future if the politics demands it.
    Which is why remainers should vote against the deal and sensible leavers support it.
    Correct. the level of sheer crass stupidity coming out of the mouths of the ERG is as painful for me as a Tory as it must be for a Labour supporter to listen to JC!
  • If Theresa May can survive to take this to the meaningful vote it will be defeated in the first instance. It then looks like there are a couple of alternatives.

    1. After failing with a vote of no confidence, the Labour frontbench adopts a second referendum as policy and the deal passes the Commons when May makes that concession. It's worth remembering that this is a concession she can offer, unlike many that will be demanded that would require a concession from the EU.

    2. In the face of the threat of a second referendum the ERG and Labour Leavers cave and support May's deal in a second Commons vote.

    This is why the ERG have made a move against May. If she survives then she finds a way to avoid a no-deal. If they can bring her down then they can create enough chaos and confusion for four months to achieve the no deal Brexit they want.

    There will be immense pressure on May to stand down when the Commons rejects her deal in the meaningful vote. But she seems to be the only hope for avoiding a no-deal Brexit.
  • I have a feeling OGH may be wrong this time, TMay could be out today.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,054

    Roger said:

    How she has the energy and will is beyond me.
    David Allan Green made an interesting observation - what have been weaknesses up to now - detail orientation, stubbornness, determination - could now be great strengths in getting the UK out of the EU in an orderly manner next March. She knows this stuff inside out and back to front - and politely points out the flaws in the unicorn-chasers' "plans". She thinks she's got the best plan available under the circumstances - ending FOM without trashing the economy - which will deliver a Brexit deal most could live with, and by god she'll drive it through.
    Ending FOM without curbing immigration is the plan.
    The HSJ does show what the sharp end of a labour shortage is:

    https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/1062967067685646336?s=19

    Though of course, increasing the pay negotiating power of British staff is the point of Brexit.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    felix said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    On the Cote d'Azur the number of French who speak English has reached epidemic proportions but what I didn't realize till last week-end was that it has now spread to Paris.

    It was difficult to order a drink in French without being answered in English.

    A pity really and one of the few downsides of the EU bringing us closer together.

    English is the first language in the western world with Spanish a close second. French does not come close.
    President Macron, while plugging La Francophonie, is also trying to improve English lessons in French schools.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/20/macron-launches-drive-to-boost-french-language-around-world

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/11/france-encourage-children-watch-cartoons-english-drive-improve/
    Even here in rural SE Spain trying to learn Spanish which I've done since i arrived is difficult when most of the locals want to answer you in English!
    The same in Italy. This summer one even said to me "it's easier", which I took as a judgement on my Italian rather than an evaluation of the respective languages.
  • felix said:

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    shiney2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    shiney2 said:

    This Week considers Brexit:.. there is no way yada yada.

    Perfect.

    The Peoples' LEAVE is coming..

    Portillo seemed to think it will play out as I suggested which is that the Cabinet, realizing that the deal is dead and the DUP are going to pull the plug, will then step in and tell May to resign as she's lost their confidence.
    And afterwards?

    The ERG pulled back today
    In what way?

    It appears they tried to launch a VONC and don't (yet) have the numbers to pass the first hurdle....
    It's notable that a number of ERG members are "reluctantly" backing the deal.
    Given the state of opinion in the country, and the preparedness of the UK, my view is that if we don’t back this we’ll end up back in the EU, either by Parliamentary mechanisms and a GE or as an inevitable outcome of No Deal, which simply doesn’t command enough support.

    I’m not happy about it but the imperative for me is for us to quit the EU’s political structures and institutions and for Brexit to take real effect in a sustainable way. The longer it is, the more normified it will be and the harder it will be to take us back in.

    Worth remembering too that nothing is forever, including this, and it can and will be superseded in the future if the politics demands it.
    Which is why remainers should vote against the deal and sensible leavers support it.
    Correct. the level of sheer crass stupidity coming out of the mouths of the ERG is as painful for me as a Tory as it must be for a Labour supporter to listen to JC!

    What unites the hard right ERG and the far left Momentum brigade is a craving for destruction followed by total reconstruction - and a willingness to let millions of ordinary people take a serious hit in order to achieve it. Under this model of politics people are collateral, their living standards and communities expendable. Given both main parties now seem to have been captured by the loons, it's hard to see how we get to the other side of this current spasm without some kind of major upheaval. It's going to get a whole lot worse before there is any chance of it getting better.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841

    rcs1000 said:

    Hello from LA.

    Immediately after the referendum, Mrs May and her Ministers went on a charm offensive. They went to visit the car companies, they went to visit big financial services firms and other manufacturers.

    They told all and sundry that Britain remained open for business, that they could (and should) continue to have their European headquarters in Britain, and that the government would be extremely supportive of business's needs.

    Their concern was that large firms would defer investment decisions, or - in extremis - reduce their UK presence.

    This publicity drive was the reason that the government made no preparations for No Deal. They couldn't risk scaring the people they'd told there would be a deal.

    The government put themselves in a very difficult position. If they hadn't made the efforts with business, well maybe some people would have gone. Certainly, the possibility of an abrupt exit from the EU's rules on avoiding withholding taxes and double taxation would have had a negative effect on firms where the UK entity was the holding company for all the European assets.

    But in doing this, they made it very hard to walk away from the negotiating table with the EU. They'd committed themselves to a deal. They'd committed themselves to no preparation for No Deal. This wasn't an act of secret EU Remainers, it was the act of a government seeking to allay the concerns of business in the immediate post Brexit period.

    I don't know how the circle could be easily squared. Perhaps the post Brexit referendum resilience of the UK economy is at least partly due to the reassurances given to the business community, and perhaps it isn't that all.

    I don’t think it’s a conspiracy. I do think it’s symptomatic of the innate conservatism (small c) and risk aversion of the civil service, which rears itself in all aspects of Government policy.

    I think a braver leader would have told business they’d seriously prepare for no deal from the start, and to be prepared for that outcome but, that wasn’t what they wanted, and they were doing it to put maximum pressure on the EU for the best deal possible.
    The compromises on NI and inability to unilaterally escape the backstop do stick in my craw somewhat - so I can understand the DUP voting against the deal.
    However the Tories should be full square behind their party on this, to not expect some degree of compromise was very foolish; and all May's work will be undone by Labour if they don't at least try and get the deal over the line.
  • felix said:

    felix said:

    Roger said:

    On the Cote d'Azur the number of French who speak English has reached epidemic proportions but what I didn't realize till last week-end was that it has now spread to Paris.

    It was difficult to order a drink in French without being answered in English.

    A pity really and one of the few downsides of the EU bringing us closer together.

    English is the first language in the western world with Spanish a close second. French does not come close.
    President Macron, while plugging La Francophonie, is also trying to improve English lessons in French schools.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/20/macron-launches-drive-to-boost-french-language-around-world

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/09/11/france-encourage-children-watch-cartoons-english-drive-improve/
    Even here in rural SE Spain trying to learn Spanish which I've done since i arrived is difficult when most of the locals want to answer you in English!

    And their Spanish is incomprehensible! Going to Andalucia to learn Spanish is like going to Glasgow to learn English!!

  • Pro_RataPro_Rata Posts: 4,784
    IanB2 said:


    These resignations confirm a fundamental structural problem with the whole leave prospectus: it was a fantasy, and as such incompatible with the mundane fulfilment of ministerial responsibility. Raab has come to the same conclusion that David Davis and Boris Johnson reached earlier in the year: it is easier to be on the team that accuses the prime minister of failing to deliver majestic herds of unicorns than it is to be stuck with a portfolio that requires expertise in unicorn-breeding

    Oh, but no deal does deliver majestic herds of unicorns. We will know this by the kaleidoscopic turdage in our field.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:
    Indeed. I follow a twitter account that does expert evidence for gerrymandering cases (showing that gerrymandering is happenibg. He supplied evidence for this one. As he likes to point out though whilst both sides do Gerrymamder if you are counting it state by state then it is basically Maryland for the Dems and a metric fuck load for the GOP.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    edited November 2018
    https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/15/johnny-bobbitt-gofundme-scam-arrest-viral-gas-story-couple-charged

    Some questions on this - Why do people give after say $10,000 has arrived. Also isn't the whole "gofundme" just some high powered form of begging. What happened to the concept of just paying for stuff or going without if you can't afford stuff ?

    I know this one is being prosecuted but the whole 'I need money for xyz' industry seems a bit whiffy. Please note I'm not talking about say donations to Cancer Research or Guide Dogs for the Blind or Cat's Trust.
  • Good morning, everyone.

    Have we had any members of the Cabinet declare that they are not resigning?
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    daodao said:

    Roger said:

    How she has the energy and will is beyond me.
    David Allan Green made an interesting observation - what have been weaknesses up to now - detail orientation, stubbornness, determination - could now be great strengths in getting the UK out of the EU in an orderly manner next March. She knows this stuff inside out and back to front - and politely points out the flaws in the unicorn-chasers' "plans". She thinks she's got the best plan available under the circumstances - ending FOM without trashing the economy - which will deliver a Brexit deal most could live with, and by god she'll drive it through.
    The issue with the deal is that it will lead to a perpetual vassal status for the UK vis-a-vis the EU, and thus prevents independent freedom of action regarding commerce and trade deals.


    But there is no such thing as "perpetual".

    Hitler on the verge of invading France is interrupted by his lawyer. "Fuhrer! Disaster, we cannot invade France as we signed a treaty pledging peace."

    "Can we not rescind the treaty?"

    "Sadly there is no mechanism for that. We are stuck in perpetual peace with France."

    "Drat! But if that's what the treaty says..."

    The May deal does not leave us as a perpetual vassal state. It leaves us largely unable to make our own trade deals; but, realistically, the journey from where we are now to one where we have more - and more comprehensive - deals than the EU would be a very long one. It leaves the state of Northern Ireland compromised; but, then again, if the people of Northern Ireland got a vote on this, then they'd probably choose this semi-detached status.

    It gets rid of 80+% of EU regulation. It gets us out of the CAP and the CFP. It means we control our own laws on who votes and who enters the country. It gets us out of the political structure of the EU and perpetual integration.

    It is the deal that 50% of Remainers and 75% of Leavers are happy with. It is the deal that reflects the fact that the vote was a close one.
  • IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    shiney2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    shiney2 said:

    This Week considers Brexit:.. there is no way yada yada.

    Perfect.

    The Peoples' LEAVE is coming..

    Portillo seemed to think it will play out as I suggested which is that the Cabinet, realizing that the deal is dead and the DUP are going to pull the plug, will then step in and tell May to resign as she's lost their confidence.
    And afterwards?

    The ERG pulled back today
    In what way?

    It appears they tried to launch a VONC and don't (yet) have the numbers to pass the first hurdle....
    It's notable that a number of ERG members are "reluctantly" backing the deal.
    Given the state of opinion in the country, and the preparedness of the UK, my view is that if we don’t back this we’ll end up back in the EU, either by Parliamentary mechanisms and a GE or as an inevitable outcome of No Deal, which simply doesn’t command enough support.

    I’m not happy about it but the imperative for me is for us to quit the EU’s political structures and institutions and for Brexit to take real effect in a sustainable way. The longer it is, the more normified it will be and the harder it will be to take us back in.

    Worth remembering too that nothing is forever, including this, and it can and will be superseded in the future if the politics demands it.
    Which is why remainers should vote against the deal and sensible leavers support it.

    How many ideological Remainers are there, though? I do not like May's deal. It is sub-optimal. But it is the best we are going to get and in reality it will change nothing beyond the symbolic and it will give some more control over immigration, which is important to a lot of decent people (even if I think that most are not that concerned by EU immigration). We will become a rule-taker, but it will not be onerous. My sense is that if May can head off the moon-howlers, there is scope for the mood in the Commons to change as Tory MPs and others spend time in their constituencies and come to understand that No Deal would be a disaster from which this country would take many, many years to recover from.

  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    I see that TMay invoked the name of the great Sir Geoffrey Boycott .
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Indeed. I follow a twitter account that does expert evidence for gerrymandering cases (showing that gerrymandering is happenibg. He supplied evidence for this one. As he likes to point out though whilst both sides do Gerrymamder if you are counting it state by state then it is basically Maryland for the Dems and a metric fuck load for the GOP.
    Absolutely. But gerrymandering is wrong.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    edited November 2018

    IanB2 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    shiney2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    shiney2 said:

    This Week considers Brexit:.. there is no way yada yada.

    Perfect.

    The Peoples' LEAVE is coming..

    Portillo seemed to think it will play out as I suggested which is that the Cabinet, realizing that the deal is dead and the DUP are going to pull the plug, will then step in and tell May to resign as she's lost their confidence.
    And afterwards?

    The ERG pulled back today
    In what way?

    It appears they tried to launch a VONC and don't (yet) have the numbers to pass the first hurdle....
    It's notable that a number of ERG members are "reluctantly" backing the deal.
    Given the state of opinion in the country, and the preparedness of the UK, my view is that if we don’t back this we’ll end up back in the EU, either by Parliamentary mechanisms and a GE or as an inevitable outcome of No Deal, which simply doesn’t command enough support.

    I’m not happy about it but the imperative for me is for us to quit the EU’s political structures and institutions and for Brexit to take real effect in a sustainable way. The longer it is, the more normified it will be and the harder it will be to take us back in.

    Worth remembering too that nothing is forever, including this, and it can and will be superseded in the future if the politics demands it.
    Which is why remainers should vote against the deal and sensible leavers support it.

    How many ideological Remainers are there, though? I do not like May's deal. It is sub-optimal. But it is the best we are going to get and in reality it will change nothing beyond the symbolic and it will give some more control over immigration, which is important to a lot of decent people (even if I think that most are not that concerned by EU immigration). We will become a rule-taker, but it will not be onerous. My sense is that if May can head off the moon-howlers, there is scope for the mood in the Commons to change as Tory MPs and others spend time in their constituencies and come to understand that No Deal would be a disaster from which this country would take many, many years to recover from.

    One rather hopes that if MPs take a break this weekend from talking to each other and to journalists they will understand the precariousness of the approach being taken. This applies across the board.

    Edit: it don’t count Ulster MPs in this but perhaps they should reflect on the RHI corruption and SF’s requirement for Foster to go before resuming Stormont.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 50,762

    If Theresa May can survive to take this to the meaningful vote it will be defeated in the first instance. It then looks like there are a couple of alternatives.

    1. After failing with a vote of no confidence, the Labour frontbench adopts a second referendum as policy and the deal passes the Commons when May makes that concession. It's worth remembering that this is a concession she can offer, unlike many that will be demanded that would require a concession from the EU.

    2. In the face of the threat of a second referendum the ERG and Labour Leavers cave and support May's deal in a second Commons vote.

    This is why the ERG have made a move against May. If she survives then she finds a way to avoid a no-deal. If they can bring her down then they can create enough chaos and confusion for four months to achieve the no deal Brexit they want.

    There will be immense pressure on May to stand down when the Commons rejects her deal in the meaningful vote. But she seems to be the only hope for avoiding a no-deal Brexit.

    Its a plausible scenario (but let's face it, we are in a position where the apparently necessary unicorns arriving in formation as pegasuses is starting to seem all too possible) but I am not entirely sure that even the limpet May could survive (a) the first defeat and (b) the offer of a second referendum.
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Exactly my point and reason for my incredulity.

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1063218582174224384?s=19

    Had May not royally f###ed up an unscheduled and unnecessary election throwing away both Cameron's majority and an over 20% lead they would be in no place to make any demands. If the DUP demand May's head on a silver platter that is no more than karmic justice for what she did last year.
    Most Tory MPs will tell the DUP to sod off rather than having their leader dictated to them even if it requires a general election
    'Most Tory MPs' won't command the majority of the House of Commons.
    'All Tory MPs' won't either.
    Well if the DUP dictate who the Tory leader is they control not just the House of Commons but the Tory Party too and that is unacceptable for a party with just over a third of votes even in NI
    Blame May, she threw away Cameron's majority and an over 20% poll lead in an unscheduled election.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    shiney2 said:

    GIN1138 said:

    shiney2 said:

    This Week considers Brexit:.. there is no way yada yada.

    Perfect.

    The Peoples' LEAVE is coming..

    Portillo seemed to think it will play out as I suggested which is that the Cabinet, realizing that the deal is dead and the DUP are going to pull the plug, will then step in and tell May to resign as she's lost their confidence.
    And afterwards?

    The ERG pulled back today
    In what way?

    It appears they tried to launch a VONC and don't (yet) have the numbers to pass the first hurdle....
    It's notable that a number of ERG members are "reluctantly" backing the deal.
    Given the state of opinion in the country, and the preparedness of the UK, my view is that if we don’t back this we’ll end up back in the EU, either by Parliamentary mechanisms and a GE or as an inevitable outcome of No Deal, which simply doesn’t command enough support.

    I’m not happy about it but the imperative for me is for us to quit the EU’s political structures and institutions and for Brexit to take real effect in a sustainable way. The longer it is, the more normified it will be and the harder it will be to take us back in.

    Worth remembering too that nothing is forever, including this, and it can and will be superseded in the future if the politics demands it.
    Why is it imperative? We've been in for decades and I've not noticed any particular drawback. If you think we would be better off out I am happy to listen. But it is now pretty obvious that rushing the leaving process is pretty sub optimal.
    I’m not debating Brexit with you all over again.

    I am stating my position on the deal. As a very strong Remainer, it’s obvious what your game is as it should be obvious to the purer eurosceptics who are letting emotion cloud their judgement.
    I think the Euro skeptics have spotted the trap you are missing. I am quite happy with May's deal. As long as we are in the Customs Union the route back into the EU is short and simple. We can save a lot of trouble by simply stopping the process now.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841


    How many ideological Remainers are there, though?

    Southam, have you seen Twitter recently :) ?
  • stjohn said:

    HYUFD said:

    Portillo says May's Deal worse than remaining in the EU on This Week, says the Cabinet must remove her

    Wonderful how these armchair Generals always have easy answers. And yet enacting them ....<


    Not hard to understand that. The HoC is full of Remainers who want nothing to do with Brexit and don’t respect the referendum
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,880
    rcs1000 said:


    But there is no such thing as "perpetual".

    rcs1000 said:


    It gets us out of the political structure of the EU and perpetual integration.

    Ok.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,080
    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:

    rcs1000 said:
    Indeed. I follow a twitter account that does expert evidence for gerrymandering cases (showing that gerrymandering is happenibg. He supplied evidence for this one. As he likes to point out though whilst both sides do Gerrymamder if you are counting it state by state then it is basically Maryland for the Dems and a metric fuck load for the GOP.
    Absolutely. But gerrymandering is wrong.
    If the voting system were fair then it would be hugely less of a problem. The fact that FPTnP depends so heavily on where you draw the boundaries is yet another of its fatal flaws.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    Dura_Ace said:

    rcs1000 said:


    But there is no such thing as "perpetual".

    rcs1000 said:


    It gets us out of the political structure of the EU and perpetual integration.

    Ok.
    Ah, but it doesn't get us perpetually outside the political structure.
This discussion has been closed.