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  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    alex. said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Apparently DD is the USA freelancing a trade deal. He's gone full George Costanza.

    After his plan of negotiating a trade deal with Germany failed, he now wants to negotiate one with Oklahoma.

    https://twitter.com/owenpaterson/status/1063860778242109441?s=21
    Jesus wept.

    Presumably the Okies want to flog us hormone beef?

    Perhaps they are a good market for our innovative jams.

    It is unbelievable. Genuinely unbelievable. There they stand beneath the flag of Oklahoma seeking to be thought of as serious statesmen rather than the complete cretins they are.

    Someone needs to end this nonsense. It’s pathetic. David Davis is a fool.
    He worse than that. He is a danger to our whole economy
    May might be a very poor politician with a tin ear, no ability to convince people or unable to think on her feet - but, she is not actively dangerous like Davis who is mind bogglingly incompetant.
    Maybe tin ear against ERG is exactly what is needed
    Her tin ear is her downfall. You cannot adapt or convince if you do not listen.

    She has one argument and one technique stating ‘I am right’ over and over again in the hope people will just get bored. She used this on technical mattered in the home office, but on this others disagree and she is doing nothing to convince them.
    I think her real downfall is worse than than a tin ear - she goes behind peoples' backs and actively undermines them. It's the story of Brexit. People have a post, then discover she has agreed to something that comes out of the blue. Which might be fine, if everybody else in her party wasn't going "WTF???" at the stuff she concedes.
    She does seem to lack trust in Davis and Raab. On the basis of what we’ve seen I can’t say I blame her.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,963

    Don’t worry Jeremy, the rest of us do know how you’d vote....

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1064084069099683840?s=20

    Probably the same as last time - for both Leave and Remain, spoiling his ballot paper....
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited November 2018
    .

  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    felix said:

    daodao said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Apparently DD is the USA freelancing a trade deal. He's gone full George Costanza.

    ...with Oklahoma, apparently. You couldn't make it up. Though the idea floated in the Telegraph of JRM being the next Chancellor has good entertainment value too.

    My sympathies are not a secret. But does anyone feel that the Conservative Party is capable under ANY leader of offering coherent government for the country at the moment? If ever a party needed a period in opposition to sort itself out, isn't this a prime example? And if a Corbyn government (dependent on SNP and LibDem votes) would be as awful as they think - a coalition of chaos and all that - wouldn't that be an opportunity for the Tories to prepare a credible alternative?
    Some of us (especially those who are not Tories) happen to think Nick that destroying the Tories for good and all would actually be a small price to pay for keeping Corbyn out of power so somebody sane, intelligent and competent could take over Labour.

    I agree the Tories are unfit for office, but Labour are unfortunately much less fit for it.
    Why?

    The time is ripe for a radical change in both domestic and foreign policy. A UN expert has pointed out the extent of child poverty in the UK and acting as a Saudi poodle following the Khashoggi assassination is surely now untenable. The current Labour leadership would deliver this necessary change, with McDonnell as CoE. Corbyn has many friends overseas with whom the UK could seek cordial relations.
    Maduro, Putin, Assad to name nut three. :)
    Maduro has been incompetent, but Putin is a first-rate leader who has many positive achievements. Working with Assad, he has stopped the takeover of Syria by the Islamic fundamentalists backed by the criminal Saudi regime, one of the West's number one enemies. Post-Brexit, there needs to be a volte-face in relations with Russia, as there was on 22/6/1941, but one should always remember to sup with the bear at arms length.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172

    murali_s said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Apparently DD is the USA freelancing a trade deal. He's gone full George Costanza.

    After his plan of negotiating a trade deal with Germany failed, he now wants to negotiate one with Oklahoma.

    https://twitter.com/owenpaterson/status/1063860778242109441?s=21
    LOL! What a bunch of tools!

    How is Owen "full of sh*t" Patterson still an MP? The man is mad and stupid!
    I don’t agree with the lot that we should leave. Cleaerly on the current options we should remain. However the Brexit bunch were accused of not having a plan earlier in the week - now they do some work on one and they are all morons. I don’t agree with them but it’s a bit disingenuous.
    But, it looks like Bertie Wooster has been put in charge of the Brexiteer's trade policy.

    Bertie usually had a plan ...
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited November 2018

    alex. said:

    I think if there is. VonC and May wins then all options are on the table. At that point she can only be removed by the House of Commons, and it gives her free reign to work outside of party boundaries to gain a majority do whatever is needed to avert national disaster.

    She can still be removed by mass cabinet resignations
    No she can’t. It is a basic fundamental of the U.K. system that the PM serves on the basis of the confidence of the House of Commons. Technically she doesn’t even need to survive a Tory VoNC. Check out 1929 if you don’t believe me.



  • alex. said:

    alex. said:

    I think if there is. VonC and May wins then all options are on the table. At that point she can only be removed by the House of Commons, and it gives her free reign to work outside of party boundaries to gain a majority do whatever is needed to avert national disaster.

    She can still be removed by mass cabinet resignations
    No she can’t. It is a basic fundamental of the U.K. system that the PM serves on the basis of the confidence of the House of Commons. Check out 1929 if you don’t believe me.

    If her cabinet deserts her she would have to stand down but of course I do not expect that to happen
  • Bet Marr is upset TM and Corbyn gave interviews with Sophy Ridge on Sky and he is left with Raab, Chakrabarti and Sturgeon
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547

    Don’t worry Jeremy, the rest of us do know how you’d vote....

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1064084069099683840?s=20

    Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    Bet Marr is upset TM and Corbyn gave interviews with Sophy Ridge on Sky and he is left with Raab, Chakrabarti and Sturgeon

    Whoever made the decision to move Marr to 10am should have resigned last night.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911
    edited November 2018

    Mr. Pulpstar, the only way I can see it is if:
    1) the deal reaches the Commons
    2) it's defeated
    3) May proposes that no deal is not what people voted for and proposes a no deal/Remain referendum

    That is exactly how I see it playing out, Labour, Lib Dems, SNP and Greens will all be in favour by that point as well. She has started to hint that that is what she will do. I think she will delight in p*ssing on the ERG's chips at that point and who could blame her.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Bet Marr is upset TM and Corbyn gave interviews with Sophy Ridge on Sky and he is left with Raab, Chakrabarti and Sturgeon

    Sure he didn't get the PM but he's got both leaders of the opposition there.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Based on May's answer about Graham Brady I'd say the letters are in.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    The online Spectator is still leading with the Steerpike piece, burying the Downing Street rebuttal downpage. Is Andrew Neill still Spectator chairman?

    Have you read the "rebuttal" ? It mainly consists of a few "ah but we have to" and "that's only for the transition period (that we can't leave without permission)".

    If anything the rebuttal is scarier than the original list.

  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911
    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, the only way I can see it is if:
    1) the deal reaches the Commons
    2) it's defeated
    3) May proposes that no deal is not what people voted for and proposes a no deal/Remain referendum

    I know we all joke about the incompetent fools trying to depose her, but she really will get the sack if she proposes a second ref.
    Not if she has survived the VONC by then. Actually I think a majority of sensible Tories would back her at that point even if she hasn't.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    FF43 said:

    Don’t worry Jeremy, the rest of us do know how you’d vote....

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1064084069099683840?s=20

    Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
    Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    alex. said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Apparently DD is the USA freelancing a trade deal. He's gone full George Costanza.

    After his plan of negotiating a trade deal with Germany failed, he now wants to negotiate one with Oklahoma.

    https://twitter.com/owenpaterson/status/1063860778242109441?s=21
    Jesus wept.

    Presumably the Okies want to flog us hormone beef?

    Perhaps they are a good market for our innovative jams.

    It is unbelievable. Genuinely unbelievable. There they stand beneath the flag of Oklahoma seeking to be thought of as serious statesmen rather than the complete cretins they are.

    Someone needs to end this nonsense. It’s pathetic. David Davis is a fool.
    He worse than that. He is a danger to our whole economy
    May might be a very poor politician with a tin ear, no ability to convince people or unable to think on her feet - but, she is not actively dangerous like Davis who is mind bogglingly incompetant.
    Maybe tin ear against ERG is exactly what is needed
    Her tin ear is her downfall. You cannot adapt or convince if you do not listen.

    She has one argument and one technique stating ‘I am right’ over and over again in the hope people will just get bored. She used this on technical mattered in the home office, but on this others disagree and she is doing nothing to convince them.
    I think her real downfall is worse than than a tin ear - she goes behind peoples' backs and actively undermines them. It's the story of Brexit. People have a post, then discover she has agreed to something that comes out of the blue. Which might be fine, if everybody else in her party wasn't going "WTF???" at the stuff she concedes.
    She does seem to lack trust in Davis and Raab. On the basis of what we’ve seen I can’t say I blame her.
    She's either spectacularly failed at getting a reasonable deal or spectacularly failed at selling the deal to her own party, the opposition and the nation.

    Or more likely both.

    She has to go - she is simply not up to the job.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,004
    edited November 2018

    Based on May's answer about Graham Brady I'd say the letters are in.

    Opinion by paper reviewers on Marr is they haven't even though two more names have been added this week making it 25. Tom Newton Dunn doubts it is 40 yet, 8 short

    It was agreed that if the ERG do not achieve the vnoc they will be marginalised
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Corbyn is still sticking to the line that Labour’s six tests are a reasonable policy “because they are based on the promises the Govt made”. Because apparently the test of what is achievable is what the Government promises...
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Based on May's answer about Graham Brady I'd say the letters are in.

    Opinion by paper reviewers on Marr is they haven't even though two more names have been added this week making it 25. Tom Newton Dunn doubts it is 40 yet, 8 short

    It was agreed that if the ERG do not achieve the vnoc they will be marginalised
    Depends - if the Cons continue to plummet in the polls then wavering MPs may tip the scales.
  • alex. said:

    alex. said:

    I think if there is. VonC and May wins then all options are on the table. At that point she can only be removed by the House of Commons, and it gives her free reign to work outside of party boundaries to gain a majority do whatever is needed to avert national disaster.

    She can still be removed by mass cabinet resignations
    No she can’t. It is a basic fundamental of the U.K. system that the PM serves on the basis of the confidence of the House of Commons. Check out 1929 if you don’t believe me.

    If her cabinet deserts her she would have to stand down but of course I do not expect that to happen
    No she wouldn't. She would simply replace them with a new cabinet. In theory she could even lose a VONC in her own party and hence lose the leadership and still remain PM if by some strange quirk she could get the 326 votes (plus and minus for absentees) that she needed in Parliament.
  • TGOHF said:

    Based on May's answer about Graham Brady I'd say the letters are in.

    Opinion by paper reviewers on Marr is they haven't even though two more names have been added this week making it 25. Tom Newton Dunn doubts it is 40 yet, 8 short

    It was agreed that if the ERG do not achieve the vnoc they will be marginalised
    Depends - if the Cons continue to plummet in the polls then wavering MPs may tip the scales.
    No time to monitor polls. It is now a question of credibility for ERG
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited November 2018
    TGOHF said:

    The online Spectator is still leading with the Steerpike piece, burying the Downing Street rebuttal downpage. Is Andrew Neill still Spectator chairman?

    Have you read the "rebuttal" ? It mainly consists of a few "ah but we have to" and "that's only for the transition period (that we can't leave without permission)".

    If anything the rebuttal is scarier than the original list.

    Er, the transition period is something that WE wanted. It is the quid pro quo for the negatives in the withdrawal agreement, payments etc, and essentially retains the EU status quo whilst be prepare for full departure. The transition period automatically ends on March 31 2021 (although we have unilateral right to extend by six months). Then the backstop kicks in, should no alternative deal have been reached.

  • rcs1000 said:

    OK. On this site, I've mentioned that Switzerland and the EU/EC/EEC had constantly renegotiated their relationship since the initial free trade agreement was signed in 1972.

    I said that there had been "half a dozen" changes.

    I would like to apologise.

    In total there have been 210 separate treaties between the EU/EC/EEC*, meaning that - on average - the relationship between the two entities is changed approximately every four months.

    * Not all of these are trade related, but I'm trying to make a point here.

    Any sensible Leaver must support the Deal, or we won’t be leaving at all.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 15,547
    daodao said:

    FF43 said:

    Don’t worry Jeremy, the rest of us do know how you’d vote....

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1064084069099683840?s=20

    Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
    Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
    Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.

    Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
  • TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    alex. said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Apparently DD is the USA freelancing a trade deal. He's gone full George Costanza.

    After his plan of negotiating a trade deal with Germany failed, he now wants to negotiate one with Oklahoma.

    https://twitter.com/owenpaterson/status/1063860778242109441?s=21
    Jesus wept.

    Presumably the Okies want to flog us hormone beef?

    Perhaps they are a good market for our innovative jams.

    It is unbelievable. Genuinely unbelievable. There they stand beneath the flag of Oklahoma seeking to be thought of as serious statesmen rather than the complete cretins they are.

    Someone needs to end this nonsense. It’s pathetic. David Davis is a fool.
    He worse than that. He is a danger to our whole economy
    May might be a very poor politician with a tin ear, no ability to convince people or unable to think on her feet - but, she is not actively dangerous like Davis who is mind bogglingly incompetant.
    Maybe tin ear against ERG is exactly what is needed
    Her tin ear is her downfall. You cannot adapt or convince if you do not listen.

    She has one argument and one technique stating ‘I am right’ over and over again in the hope people will just get bored. She used this on technical mattered in the home office, but on this others disagree and she is doing nothing to convince them.
    I think her real downfall is worse than than a tin ear - she goes behind peoples' backs and actively undermines them. It's the story of Brexit. People have a post, then discover she has agreed to something that comes out of the blue. Which might be fine, if everybody else in her party wasn't going "WTF???" at the stuff she concedes.
    She does seem to lack trust in Davis and Raab. On the basis of what we’ve seen I can’t say I blame her.
    She has to go - she is simply not up to the job.
    Who is?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,237
    TGOHF said:

    The online Spectator is still leading with the Steerpike piece, burying the Downing Street rebuttal downpage. Is Andrew Neill still Spectator chairman?

    Have you read the "rebuttal" ? It mainly consists of a few "ah but we have to" and "that's only for the transition period (that we can't leave without permission)".

    If anything the rebuttal is scarier than the original list.

    Yes I have read it, and the original list, and I thought the rebuttal was right and some of the original list were truly ludicrous. I spent some time on here last night going thru some of them,
  • Foxy said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Mr. Pulpstar, the only way I can see it is if:
    1) the deal reaches the Commons
    2) it's defeated
    3) May proposes that no deal is not what people voted for and proposes a no deal/Remain referendum

    I know we all joke about the incompetent fools trying to depose her, but she really will get the sack if she proposes a second ref.
    If she survives a VONC then they cannot sack her. Not for 12 months anyway.

    Of the various ways out of this situation, the #peoplesvote is the best. Make Britain Sane Again!
    I would caveat that by saying cabinet could force her out
    When you have five members of Cabinet refusing to resign, but instead re-writing the deal she has negotiated, her inability to sack them shows her power as PM has all but gone.....
    And just how are they going to re-write the deal. Tweeks maybe but nothing else
    Hmm... can anyone think of a recent precedent when a senior Conservative promised a tough renegotiation of our relationship with the EU, came back touting a couple of disappointing tweaks as a revolution? How did the electorate respond that time?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    rcs1000 said:

    OK. On this site, I've mentioned that Switzerland and the EU/EC/EEC had constantly renegotiated their relationship since the initial free trade agreement was signed in 1972.

    I said that there had been "half a dozen" changes.

    I would like to apologise.

    In total there have been 210 separate treaties between the EU/EC/EEC*, meaning that - on average - the relationship between the two entities is changed approximately every four months.

    * Not all of these are trade related, but I'm trying to make a point here.

    Any sensible Leaver must support the Deal, or we won’t be leaving at all.
    Box ticking only. Deal doesn’t really achieve anything. It is EU membership without democratic participation. Less control.
  • Mr. T, suspect we're mostly on different sides of the fence when it comes to the EU situation, but it'd be interesting to see how things play out if we do end up with a second referendum.

    Most people want a resolution and an end to faffing about. Would a Remain vote provide that? To a large extent. However, both strong Leavers and those who think the original vote should not be simply discarded will have misgivings.

    From a purely party political perspective, there would be significant challenges for both sides. What would Corbyn do? His excellent 2017 campaign (aided by softballing from the media and the Conservatives trying to commit ritual suicide, but even so) means any lacklustre effort will stand out a mile.

    And how would May proceed? If the deal is an option she must back it, but what if it's No Deal/Remain?
  • Dura_Ace said:

    Apparently DD is the USA freelancing a trade deal. He's gone full George Costanza.

    ...with Oklahoma, apparently. You couldn't make it up. Though the idea floated in the Telegraph of JRM being the next Chancellor has good entertainment value too.

    My sympathies are not a secret. But does anyone feel that the Conservative Party is capable under ANY leader of offering coherent government for the country at the moment? If ever a party needed a period in opposition to sort itself out, isn't this a prime example? And if a Corbyn government (dependent on SNP and LibDem votes) would be as awful as they think - a coalition of chaos and all that - wouldn't that be an opportunity for the Tories to prepare a credible alternative?
    Yes, I think Javid would make a superb PM. So would Gove or Hunt, not that they’d be popular.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    alex. said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Apparently DD is the USA freelancing a trade deal. He's gone full George Costanza.

    After his plan of negotiating a trade deal with Germany failed, he now wants to negotiate one with Oklahoma.

    https://twitter.com/owenpaterson/status/1063860778242109441?s=21
    Jesus wept.

    Presumably the Okies want to flog us hormone beef?

    Perhaps they are a good market for our innovative jams.

    It is unbelievable. Genuinely unbelievable. There they stand beneath the flag of Oklahoma seeking to be thought of as serious statesmen rather than the complete cretins they are.

    Someone needs to end this nonsense. It’s pathetic. David Davis is a fool.
    He worse than that. He is a danger to our whole economy
    May might be a very poor politician with a tin ear, no ability to convince people or unable to think on her feet - but, she is not actively dangerous like Davis who is mind bogglingly incompetant.
    Maybe tin ear against ERG is exactly what is needed
    Her tin ear is her downfall. You cannot adapt or convince if you do not listen.

    She has one argument and one technique stating ‘I am right’ over and over again in the hope people will just get bored. She used this on technical mattered in the home office, but on this others disagree and she is doing nothing to convince them.
    I think her real downfall is worse than than a tin ear - she goes behind peoples' backs and actively undermines them. It's the story of Brexit. People have a post, then discover she has agreed to something that comes out of the blue. Which might be fine, if everybody else in her party wasn't going "WTF???" at the stuff she concedes.
    She does seem to lack trust in Davis and Raab. On the basis of what we’ve seen I can’t say I blame her.
    She has to go - she is simply not up to the job.
    Who is?
    The PM.
  • Pulpstar said:

    The news cycle being led by the former Brexit Secretary saying the PM "has not stood up to the EUs bullies" is toxic to Theresa.

    Toxic to the Tories I think you mean, a sane brexiy probably could have got over the line if the Conservatives had rowed in behind May. Now we will either have no deal or no Brexit. All paths lead to Corbyn from here.
    The stupidity is absolutely astounding.

    It will lead to destruction of their own dream.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    alex. said:

    TGOHF said:

    The online Spectator is still leading with the Steerpike piece, burying the Downing Street rebuttal downpage. Is Andrew Neill still Spectator chairman?

    Have you read the "rebuttal" ? It mainly consists of a few "ah but we have to" and "that's only for the transition period (that we can't leave without permission)".

    If anything the rebuttal is scarier than the original list.

    Er, the transition period is something that WE wanted. It is the quid pro quo for the negatives in the withdrawal agreement, payments etc, and essentially retains the EU status quo whilst be prepare for full departure. The transition period automatically ends on March 31 2021 (although we have unilateral right to extend by six months). Then the backstop kicks in, should no alternative deal have been reached.

    When you mean "we" you mean the team lead by PM May ?

  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    alex. said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Apparently DD is the USA freelancing a trade deal. He's gone full George Costanza.

    After his plan of negotiating a trade deal with Germany failed, he now wants to negotiate one with Oklahoma.

    https://twitter.com/owenpaterson/status/1063860778242109441?s=21
    Jesus wept.

    Presumably the Okies want to flog us hormone beef?

    Perhaps they are a good market for our innovative jams.

    It is unbelievable. Genuinely unbelievable. There they stand beneath the flag of Oklahoma seeking to be thought of as serious statesmen rather than the complete cretins they are.

    Someone needs to end this nonsense. It’s pathetic. David Davis is a fool.
    He worse than that. He is a danger to our whole economy
    May might be a very poor politician with a tin ear, no ability to convince people or unable to think on her feet - but, she is not actively dangerous like Davis who is mind bogglingly incompetant.
    Maybe tin ear against ERG is exactly what is needed
    Her tin ear is her downfall. You cannot adapt or convince if you do not listen.

    She has one argument and one technique stating ‘I am right’ over and over again in the hope people will just get bored. She used this on technical mattered in the home office, but on this others disagree and she is doing nothing to convince them.
    I think her real downfall is worse than than a tin ear - she goes behind peoples' backs and actively undermines them. It's the story of Brexit. People have a post, then discover she has agreed to something that comes out of the blue. Which might be fine, if everybody else in her party wasn't going "WTF???" at the stuff she concedes.
    She does seem to lack trust in Davis and Raab. On the basis of what we’ve seen I can’t say I blame her.
    She has to go - she is simply not up to the job.
    Who is?
    The PM.
    Make your mind up!
  • alex. said:

    felix said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Apparently DD is the USA freelancing a trade deal. He's gone full George Costanza.

    ...with Oklahoma, apparently. You couldn't make it up. Though the idea floated in the Telegraph of JRM being the next Chancellor has good entertainment value too.

    My sympathies are not a secret. But does anyone feel that the Conservative Party is capable under ANY leader of offering coherent government for the country at the moment? If ever a party needed a period in opposition to sort itself out, isn't this a prime example? And if a Corbyn government (dependent on SNP and LibDem votes) would be as awful as they think - a coalition of chaos and all that - wouldn't that be an opportunity for the Tories to prepare a credible alternative?
    There is only one alternative worse than the current situation and of course you hit right on it.

    Oklahoma, Felix. Oklahoma. There is no alternative worse than the Buccaneers taking over.

    He doesn’t get an awful lot of positive feedback in his twitter responses....

    It strange how some ERGers twitter comments are full of sycophants (see eg. Nadine dorries) who cheer on their every pronouncement and in others full of critics. This man was a cabinet minister! His colleague is currently being promoted as the next Prime Minister!

    I guess former cabinet ministers have people of all shades in their twitter following. The hon member for Mid Bedfordshire, not so much. Sycophants and people who watched her eat kangaroo bollocks in I'm a Celeb.
  • Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OK. On this site, I've mentioned that Switzerland and the EU/EC/EEC had constantly renegotiated their relationship since the initial free trade agreement was signed in 1972.

    I said that there had been "half a dozen" changes.

    I would like to apologise.

    In total there have been 210 separate treaties between the EU/EC/EEC*, meaning that - on average - the relationship between the two entities is changed approximately every four months.

    * Not all of these are trade related, but I'm trying to make a point here.

    Any sensible Leaver must support the Deal, or we won’t be leaving at all.
    Box ticking only. Deal doesn’t really achieve anything. It is EU membership without democratic participation. Less control.
    No, it isn’t. That summary is just as inaccurate as the headbangers state.

    Read it, and the future political declaration too.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,697

    Don’t worry Jeremy, the rest of us do know how you’d vote....

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1064084069099683840?s=20

    Jezza's been for LEAVE for 40 years. We know how he'd vote! :D
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    alex. said:

    TGOHF said:

    TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    alex. said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Apparently DD is the USA freelancing a trade deal. He's gone full George Costanza.

    After his plan of negotiating a trade deal with Germany failed, he now wants to negotiate one with Oklahoma.

    https://twitter.com/owenpaterson/status/1063860778242109441?s=21
    Jesus wept.

    Presumably the Okies want to flog us hormone beef?

    Perhaps they are a good market for our innovative jams.

    It is unbelievable. Genuinely unbelievable. There they stand beneath the flag of Oklahoma seeking to be thought of as serious statesmen rather than the complete cretins they are.

    Someone needs to end this nonsense. It’s pathetic. David Davis is a fool.
    He worse than that. He is a danger to our whole economy
    May might be a very poor politician with a tin ear, no ability to convince people or unable to think on her feet - but, she is not actively dangerous like Davis who is mind bogglingly incompetant.
    Maybe tin ear against ERG is exactly what is needed
    Her tin ear is her downfall. You cannot adapt or convince if you do not listen.

    She has one argument and one technique stating ‘I am right’ over and over again in the hope people will just get bored. She used this on technical mattered in the home office, but on this others disagree and she is doing nothing to convince them.
    I think her real downfall is worse than than a tin ear - she goes behind peoples' backs and actively undermines them. It's the story of Brexit. People have a post, then discover she has agreed to something that comes out of the blue. Which might be fine, if everybody else in her party wasn't going "WTF???" at the stuff she concedes.
    She does seem to lack trust in Davis and Raab. On the basis of what we’ve seen I can’t say I blame her.
    She has to go - she is simply not up to the job.
    Who is?
    The PM.
    Make your mind up!
    Oh it quite clearly is.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,237

    Okla-fucking-homa!!!!!??????

    Are you serious?

    How on earth did these people get anywhere near the Houses of Parliament, let alone the Cabinet?

    The sheer, barking insanity of it is quite literally beyond comprehension.

    But there is a subtle message of optimism from David Davis's campaign to be PM in the lyrics from Oklahoma, the musical:

    "Oh, what a beautiful mornin'
    Oh, what a beautiful day
    I've got a beautiful feelin'
    Everything's goin' my way..."
    Given that Oklahoma City was the victim of the largest domestic terrorist bombing (and the largest period before 9/11), I would not be so quick to use the word "optimism"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing
  • FF43 said:

    daodao said:

    FF43 said:

    Don’t worry Jeremy, the rest of us do know how you’d vote....

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1064084069099683840?s=20

    Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
    Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
    Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.

    Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
    One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket

    He is as much an ultra brexiteer as any in ERG
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OK. On this site, I've mentioned that Switzerland and the EU/EC/EEC had constantly renegotiated their relationship since the initial free trade agreement was signed in 1972.

    I said that there had been "half a dozen" changes.

    I would like to apologise.

    In total there have been 210 separate treaties between the EU/EC/EEC*, meaning that - on average - the relationship between the two entities is changed approximately every four months.

    * Not all of these are trade related, but I'm trying to make a point here.

    Any sensible Leaver must support the Deal, or we won’t be leaving at all.
    Box ticking only. Deal doesn’t really achieve anything. It is EU membership without democratic participation. Less control.
    No, it isn’t. That summary is just as inaccurate as the headbangers state.

    Read it, and the future political declaration too.
    It’s inferior to Remain.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911

    Buccaneering Brexiteer latest ...
    * Dominic Raab has discovered Britain is an island off the coast of France.
    * Nadine Dorries has learned leaving the EU means having no MEPs
    * David Davis and Owen Paterson have tried to negotiate a trade deal with Oklahoma.

    As anger at the ERG and fellow loonies turns to mirth I think it's safe to say a No Deal Brexit is not going to happen.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    TGOHF said:

    Based on May's answer about Graham Brady I'd say the letters are in.

    Opinion by paper reviewers on Marr is they haven't even though two more names have been added this week making it 25. Tom Newton Dunn doubts it is 40 yet, 8 short

    It was agreed that if the ERG do not achieve the vnoc they will be marginalised
    Depends - if the Cons continue to plummet in the polls then wavering MPs may tip the scales.
    No time to monitor polls. It is now a question of credibility for ERG
    Not really - they aren't the one's who have failed to bring anyone on board for the May deal.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    GIN1138 said:

    Don’t worry Jeremy, the rest of us do know how you’d vote....

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1064084069099683840?s=20

    Jezza's been for LEAVE for 40 years. We know how he'd vote! :D
    So he's a duplicitous bastard as Gen Haig would have said.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    FF43 said:

    daodao said:

    FF43 said:

    Don’t worry Jeremy, the rest of us do know how you’d vote....

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1064084069099683840?s=20

    Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
    Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
    Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.

    Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
    One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket

    He is as much an ultra brexiteer as any in ERG
    This is probably a good summary of Corbynite thinking on it:
    https://twitter.com/graceblakeley/status/1063396631448600577
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    alex. said:

    Dura_Ace said:







    Someone needs to end this nonsense. It’s pathetic. David Davis is a fool.
    He worse than that. He is a danger to our whole economy
    May might be a very poor politician with a tin ear, no ability to convince people or unable to think on her feet - but, she is not actively dangerous like Davis who is mind bogglingly incompetant.
    Maybe tin ear against ERG is exactly what is needed
    Her tin ear is her downfall. You cannot adapt or convince if you do not listen.

    She has one argument and one technique stating ‘I am right’ over and over again in the hope people will just get bored. She used this on technical mattered in the home office, but on this others disagree and she is doing nothing to convince them.
    I think her real downfall is worse than than a tin ear - she goes behind peoples' backs and actively undermines them. It's the story of Brexit. People have a post, then discover she has agreed to something that comes out of the blue. Which might be fine, if everybody else in her party wasn't going "WTF???" at the stuff she concedes.
    She does seem to lack trust in Davis and Raab. On the basis of what we’ve seen I can’t say I blame her.
    She's either spectacularly failed at getting a reasonable deal or spectacularly failed at selling the deal to her own party, the opposition and the nation.

    Or more likely both.

    She has to go - she is simply not up to the job.
    She is more up to the job than any of the “extremist ninnies” (copyright: Alistair Meeks) who might replace her.

    At what point, I wonder, will it dawn on the Tories that the EU deal is a final offer and they couldn’t care less about the psychodramas that intellectually challenged Tory or Labour politicians are going through?
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,237
    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OK. On this site, I've mentioned that Switzerland and the EU/EC/EEC had constantly renegotiated their relationship since the initial free trade agreement was signed in 1972.

    I said that there had been "half a dozen" changes.

    I would like to apologise.

    In total there have been 210 separate treaties between the EU/EC/EEC*, meaning that - on average - the relationship between the two entities is changed approximately every four months.

    * Not all of these are trade related, but I'm trying to make a point here.

    Any sensible Leaver must support the Deal, or we won’t be leaving at all.
    Box ticking only. Deal doesn’t really achieve anything. It is EU membership without democratic participation. Less control.
    Yes. And it's temporary (<2 years if memory serves) so we can get our shit together and not go splat when we hit the wall on March 2019. Because of lack of preparation for No Deal, we need it.
  • rcs1000 said:

    OK. On this site, I've mentioned that Switzerland and the EU/EC/EEC had constantly renegotiated their relationship since the initial free trade agreement was signed in 1972.

    I said that there had been "half a dozen" changes.

    I would like to apologise.

    In total there have been 210 separate treaties between the EU/EC/EEC*, meaning that - on average - the relationship between the two entities is changed approximately every four months.

    * Not all of these are trade related, but I'm trying to make a point here.

    Any sensible Leaver must support the Deal, or we won’t be leaving at all.
    It is a very bad deal and I will never forgive May for getting us to this point. I certainly won't be voting for her at the next GE. But because of the risk of her engineering a Remain/No Deal vote if this falls and the risk of Remain winning that, I very reluctantly agree with you.

    May never understood Brexit. She didn't vote for it and, with all her other myriad faults, she was the worst person to be in charge these last 2 years. That is why this deal is so bad. But it is what we have for now so I would support it over the risk of Remain, which I genuinely believe would bring about a collapse in our democracy and decades of strife in this country.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038
    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OK. On this site, I've mentioned that Switzerland and the EU/EC/EEC had constantly renegotiated their relationship since the initial free trade agreement was signed in 1972.

    I said that there had been "half a dozen" changes.

    I would like to apologise.

    In total there have been 210 separate treaties between the EU/EC/EEC*, meaning that - on average - the relationship between the two entities is changed approximately every four months.

    * Not all of these are trade related, but I'm trying to make a point here.

    Any sensible Leaver must support the Deal, or we won’t be leaving at all.
    Box ticking only. Deal doesn’t really achieve anything. It is EU membership without democratic participation. Less control.
    Temporarily. What did you expect during the transition/implementation phase? The alternative would be to remain members during this phase, which would annoy Brexiters even more.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    rcs1000 said:

    OK. On this site, I've mentioned that Switzerland and the EU/EC/EEC had constantly renegotiated their relationship since the initial free trade agreement was signed in 1972.

    I said that there had been "half a dozen" changes.

    I would like to apologise.

    In total there have been 210 separate treaties between the EU/EC/EEC*, meaning that - on average - the relationship between the two entities is changed approximately every four months.

    * Not all of these are trade related, but I'm trying to make a point here.

    Any sensible Leaver must support the Deal, or we won’t be leaving at all.
    It is a very bad deal and I will never forgive May for getting us to this point. I certainly won't be voting for her at the next GE. But because of the risk of her engineering a Remain/No Deal vote if this falls and the risk of Remain winning that, I very reluctantly agree with you.

    May never understood Brexit. She didn't vote for it and, with all her other myriad faults, she was the worst person to be in charge these last 2 years. That is why this deal is so bad. But it is what we have for now so I would support it over the risk of Remain, which I genuinely believe would bring about a collapse in our democracy and decades of strife in this country.
    I don't see why you have a problem with it. It doesn't preclude Norway as the long term relationship.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Cyclefree said:



    TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    alex. said:

    Dura_Ace said:







    Someone needs to end this nonsense. It’s pathetic. David Davis is a fool.
    He worse than that. He is a danger to our whole economy
    May might be a very poor politician with a tin ear, no ability to convince people or unable to think on her feet - but, she is not actively dangerous like Davis who is mind bogglingly incompetant.
    Maybe tin ear against ERG is exactly what is needed
    Her tin ear is her downfall. You cannot adapt or convince if you do not listen.

    She has one argument and one technique stating ‘I am right’ over and over again in the hope people will just get bored. She used this on technical mattered in the home office, but on this others disagree and she is doing nothing to convince them.
    I think her real downfall is worse than than a tin ear - she goes behind peoples' backs and actively undermines them. It's the story of Brexit. People have a post, then discover she has agreed to something that comes out of the blue. Which might be fine, if everybody else in her party wasn't going "WTF???" at the stuff she concedes.
    She does seem to lack trust in Davis and Raab. On the basis of what we’ve seen I can’t say I blame her.
    She's either spectacularly failed at getting a reasonable deal or spectacularly failed at selling the deal to her own party, the opposition and the nation.

    Or more likely both.

    She has to go - she is simply not up to the job.
    She is more up to the job than any of the “extremist ninnies” (copyright: Alistair Meeks) who might replace her.

    At what point, I wonder, will it dawn on the Tories that the EU deal is a final offer and they couldn’t care less about the psychodramas that intellectually challenged Tory or Labour politicians are going through?
    When will it dawn on the wets in the Con party that their supporters not bothering to vote in the future is a big problem for them ?
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,311

    murali_s said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Apparently DD is the USA freelancing a trade deal. He's gone full George Costanza.

    After his plan of negotiating a trade deal with Germany failed, he now wants to negotiate one with Oklahoma.

    https://twitter.com/owenpaterson/status/1063860778242109441?s=21
    LOL! What a bunch of tools!

    How is Owen "full of sh*t" Patterson still an MP? The man is mad and stupid!
    I don’t agree with the lot that we should leave. Cleaerly on the current options we should remain. However the Brexit bunch were accused of not having a plan earlier in the week - now they do some work on one and they are all morons. I don’t agree with them but it’s a bit disingenuous.
    I just think we should all be more civil about it. The main warranted criticism of leave was that they were not prepared. Now at the start that was due to Cameron using the civil service for remain and more recently May has run a shadow Dexeu from number 10. Now they need to put forward concrete proposals on the opportunity for no deal.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    There is nothing in this deal for me. Nothing.

    Remain offers more democratic control and a stronger economy. I want a second vote. Remain is possible. No deal is not inevitable.

  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038

    TGOHF said:

    Based on May's answer about Graham Brady I'd say the letters are in.

    Opinion by paper reviewers on Marr is they haven't even though two more names have been added this week making it 25. Tom Newton Dunn doubts it is 40 yet, 8 short

    It was agreed that if the ERG do not achieve the vnoc they will be marginalised
    Depends - if the Cons continue to plummet in the polls then wavering MPs may tip the scales.
    No time to monitor polls. It is now a question of credibility for ERG
    Why should we care about ERG? Country shouldn't be held to ransom by these loons.
  • FF43 said:

    daodao said:

    FF43 said:

    Don’t worry Jeremy, the rest of us do know how you’d vote....

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1064084069099683840?s=20

    Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
    Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
    Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.

    Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.

    I think the way it plays out from here is that there will be no election and no referendum, and that Labour will be left with a choice of No Deal or May's deal. At that stage I think enough Labour MPs will back it. I also think that No Deal is only going to get even less popular the closer to Brexit day we get and the more people understand the implications of it. If Labour as a whole - rather than just some of its MPs disobeying the whip - is seen to prevent No Deal happening, it will reap significant rewards.

  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited November 2018

    rcs1000 said:

    OK. On this site, I've mentioned that Switzerland and the EU/EC/EEC had constantly renegotiated their relationship since the initial free trade agreement was signed in 1972.

    I said that there had been "half a dozen" changes.

    I would like to apologise.

    In total there have been 210 separate treaties between the EU/EC/EEC*, meaning that - on average - the relationship between the two entities is changed approximately every four months.

    * Not all of these are trade related, but I'm trying to make a point here.

    Any sensible Leaver must support the Deal, or we won’t be leaving at all.
    It is a very bad deal and I will never forgive May for getting us to this point. I certainly won't be voting for her at the next GE. But because of the risk of her engineering a Remain/No Deal vote if this falls and the risk of Remain winning that, I very reluctantly agree with you.

    May never understood Brexit. She didn't vote for it and, with all her other myriad faults, she was the worst person to be in charge these last 2 years. That is why this deal is so bad. But it is what we have for now so I would support it over the risk of Remain, which I genuinely believe would bring about a collapse in our democracy and decades of strife in this country.
    I don't see why you have a problem with it. It doesn't preclude Norway as the long term relationship.
    Wasn’t it Richard Nabavi in favour of Norway? Of course she does understand Brexit - no FOM, no CAP, CFP, no contributions.

    Just that’s not the long term Brexiteers Brexit, they just exploited those to win the vote.
  • rcs1000 said:

    OK. On this site, I've mentioned that Switzerland and the EU/EC/EEC had constantly renegotiated their relationship since the initial free trade agreement was signed in 1972.

    I said that there had been "half a dozen" changes.

    I would like to apologise.

    In total there have been 210 separate treaties between the EU/EC/EEC*, meaning that - on average - the relationship between the two entities is changed approximately every four months.

    * Not all of these are trade related, but I'm trying to make a point here.

    Any sensible Leaver must support the Deal, or we won’t be leaving at all.
    It is a very bad deal and I will never forgive May for getting us to this point. I certainly won't be voting for her at the next GE. But because of the risk of her engineering a Remain/No Deal vote if this falls and the risk of Remain winning that, I very reluctantly agree with you.

    May never understood Brexit. She didn't vote for it and, with all her other myriad faults, she was the worst person to be in charge these last 2 years. That is why this deal is so bad. But it is what we have for now so I would support it over the risk of Remain, which I genuinely believe would bring about a collapse in our democracy and decades of strife in this country.
    I don't see why you have a problem with it. It doesn't preclude Norway as the long term relationship.
    Norway is not in the customs union. This is a long way worse than Norway, which is what we should have gone for at the very start. I can support the deal because it is not a complete disaster and because it does get us outside the main institutions of the EU. But it is a sow's ear for sure.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,237
    Cyclefree said:



    TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    alex. said:

    Dura_Ace said:







    Someone needs to end this nonsense. It’s pathetic. David Davis is a fool.
    He worse than that. He is a danger to our whole economy
    May might be a very poor politician with a tin ear, no ability to convince people or unable to think on her feet - but, she is not actively dangerous like Davis who is mind bogglingly incompetant.
    Maybe tin ear against ERG is exactly what is needed
    Her tin ear is her downfall. You cannot adapt or convince if you do not listen.

    She has one argument and one technique stating ‘I am right’ over and over again in the hope people will just get bored. She used this on technical mattered in the home office, but on this others disagree and she is doing nothing to convince them.
    I think her real downfall is worse than than a tin ear - she goes behind peoples' backs and actively undermines them. It's the story of Brexit. People have a post, then discover she has agreed to something that comes out of the blue. Which might be fine, if everybody else in her party wasn't going "WTF???" at the stuff she concedes.
    She does seem to lack trust in Davis and Raab. On the basis of what we’ve seen I can’t say I blame her.
    She's either spectacularly failed at getting a reasonable deal or spectacularly failed at selling the deal to her own party, the opposition and the nation.

    Or more likely both.

    She has to go - she is simply not up to the job.
    She is more up to the job than any of the “extremist ninnies” (copyright: Alistair Meeks) who might replace her.

    At what point, I wonder, will it dawn on the Tories that the EU deal is a final offer and they couldn’t care less about the psychodramas that intellectually challenged Tory or Labour politicians are going through?
    If I may bang on about one of my repeated themes (I have so many of them at this point it's becoming a body of work), many of the people involved in the psychodrama are very wealthy or actively malevolent and can afford to ignore the facts ad absurdum
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    So May has said there is more negotiation taking place, undermining her own attempts to get more votes previously and at least partially vindicating the gutless five, and she has said the 48 letters have not been reached when it would surely be in her interest to not mention if it had, as people might be holding off thinking it will be reached without them - so she's just trying to get no confidenced right?
  • FF43 said:

    daodao said:

    FF43 said:

    Don’t worry Jeremy, the rest of us do know how you’d vote....

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1064084069099683840?s=20

    Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
    Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
    Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.

    Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
    One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket

    He is as much an ultra brexiteer as any in ERG
    This is probably a good summary of Corbynite thinking on it:
    https://twitter.com/graceblakeley/status/1063396631448600577

    What she is essentially advocating is No Deal. Like the moon-howlers on the hard right, those on the far left are completely removed from the consequences of a No Deal. They see ordinary people, their families and communities as collateral, nothing more. It is utterly contemptible.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    Shami Chakrabarti says Labour wants May to go back to the EU and negotiate something more in line with Labour's 6 tests ie permanent customs union and if not call a general election
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    FF43 said:

    daodao said:

    FF43 said:

    Don’t worry Jeremy, the rest of us do know how you’d vote....

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1064084069099683840?s=20

    Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
    Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
    Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.

    Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.

    I think the way it plays out from here is that there will be no election and no referendum, and that Labour will be left with a choice of No Deal or May's deal. At that stage I think enough Labour MPs will back it. I also think that No Deal is only going to get even less popular the closer to Brexit day we get and the more people understand the implications of it. If Labour as a whole - rather than just some of its MPs disobeying the whip - is seen to prevent No Deal happening, it will reap significant rewards.

    If the deal passes - which it could on the back of centrist Labour MPs - there could be the situation where both major parties fire their guns on each other and we end up with the Cons losing their right wing voters, the Labour party deselecting for fun it's centrist mums and dad MPs and there is a sizeable portion of the electorate left twiddling its thumbs.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    HYUFD said:

    Shami Chakrabarti says Labour wants May to go back to the EU and negotiate something more in line with Labour's 6 tests ie permanent customs union and if not call a general election

    If she wants Labour votes, she needs to give Labour something. It’s not hard.
  • alex. said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OK. On this site, I've mentioned that Switzerland and the EU/EC/EEC had constantly renegotiated their relationship since the initial free trade agreement was signed in 1972.

    I said that there had been "half a dozen" changes.

    I would like to apologise.

    In total there have been 210 separate treaties between the EU/EC/EEC*, meaning that - on average - the relationship between the two entities is changed approximately every four months.

    * Not all of these are trade related, but I'm trying to make a point here.

    Any sensible Leaver must support the Deal, or we won’t be leaving at all.
    It is a very bad deal and I will never forgive May for getting us to this point. I certainly won't be voting for her at the next GE. But because of the risk of her engineering a Remain/No Deal vote if this falls and the risk of Remain winning that, I very reluctantly agree with you.

    May never understood Brexit. She didn't vote for it and, with all her other myriad faults, she was the worst person to be in charge these last 2 years. That is why this deal is so bad. But it is what we have for now so I would support it over the risk of Remain, which I genuinely believe would bring about a collapse in our democracy and decades of strife in this country.
    I don't see why you have a problem with it. It doesn't preclude Norway as the long term relationship.
    Wasn’t it Richard Nabavi in favour of Norway? Of course she does understand Brexit - no FOM, no CAP, CFP, no contributions.

    Just that’s not the long term Brexiteers Brexit, they just exploited those to win the vote.
    No, Richard N was for Remain. I have long advocated Norway.
  • Jonathan said:

    There is nothing in this deal for me. Nothing.

    Remain offers more democratic control and a stronger economy. I want a second vote. Remain is possible. No deal is not inevitable.

    Brexiteers should read and note this.

    Those rejecting the deal are the ultra-Remainers useful idiots.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    tlg86 said:

    Bet Marr is upset TM and Corbyn gave interviews with Sophy Ridge on Sky and he is left with Raab, Chakrabarti and Sturgeon

    Whoever made the decision to move Marr to 10am should have resigned last night.
    No Marr is better than a bad Marr.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    HYUFD said:

    Shami Chakrabarti says Labour wants May to go back to the EU and negotiate something more in line with Labour's 6 tests ie permanent customs union and if not call a general election

    Would the EU allow the Uk to stay in a customs union whilst switching to a massive state aid spending program ? I'm sceptical.
  • Rexel56Rexel56 Posts: 807
    edited November 2018
    Mildly amused by the nonsense in Oklahoma... but the surprise for me is that Oklahoma is able to enter into free trade agreements with other countries. In a minute I’m going to look at the WTO site to study Oklahoma’s default, most favoured nation, trade tariffs and work out an early negotiating strategy for Fox and his team.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OK. On this site, I've mentioned that Switzerland and the EU/EC/EEC had constantly renegotiated their relationship since the initial free trade agreement was signed in 1972.

    I said that there had been "half a dozen" changes.

    I would like to apologise.

    In total there have been 210 separate treaties between the EU/EC/EEC*, meaning that - on average - the relationship between the two entities is changed approximately every four months.

    * Not all of these are trade related, but I'm trying to make a point here.

    Any sensible Leaver must support the Deal, or we won’t be leaving at all.
    Box ticking only. Deal doesn’t really achieve anything. It is EU membership without democratic participation. Less control.
    No, it isn’t. That summary is just as inaccurate as the headbangers state.

    Read it, and the future political declaration too.
    It’s inferior to Remain.
    In your opinion.

    It brings an end to free movement, gets us out of the CAP and CFP and maintained frictionless trade. We will never ever be part of a superstate after this.

    It also gets us out of 80%+ of single market regulation and gives us near full freedom in services and digital technology, something which has been barely commented on at all in mainstream media.

    I am very, very interested in that and consider that a real prize.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Jonathan said:

    There is nothing in this deal for me. Nothing.

    Remain offers more democratic control and a stronger economy. I want a second vote. Remain is possible. No deal is not inevitable.

    Brexiteers should read and note this.

    Those rejecting the deal are the ultra-Remainers useful idiots.
    I'd suggest that wasn't a line to convince anyone to change their mind. As proved many times over the last 2 years.
  • OllyTOllyT Posts: 4,911

    Mr. T, suspect we're mostly on different sides of the fence when it comes to the EU situation, but it'd be interesting to see how things play out if we do end up with a second referendum.

    Most people want a resolution and an end to faffing about. Would a Remain vote provide that? To a large extent. However, both strong Leavers and those who think the original vote should not be simply discarded will have misgivings.

    From a purely party political perspective, there would be significant challenges for both sides. What would Corbyn do? His excellent 2017 campaign (aided by softballing from the media and the Conservatives trying to commit ritual suicide, but even so) means any lacklustre effort will stand out a mile.

    And how would May proceed? If the deal is an option she must back it, but what if it's No Deal/Remain?

    Mr Dancer, I think we can agree that the most likely scenario for a 2nd referendum is if May's deal fails, in which case it will be No Deal v Remain. I am pretty sure that the pressure on Corbyn for Labour to support remain would be far too great to ignore and I expect the Government, along with the SNP, Greens, Plaid and Lib Dems would be also aligned for remain with a large chunk of the Tories, and UKIP supporting no deal.

    Now you could argue that that is pretty much the same coalition on each side that resulted in the Brexit win in 2016. However I genuinely believe that the hard line leavers (ERG and UKIP) have been discredited in the eyes of many, including many leavers, in the meantime. I would put my money on a double-digit majority for remain in those circumstances

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited November 2018

    Jonathan said:

    There is nothing in this deal for me. Nothing.

    Remain offers more democratic control and a stronger economy. I want a second vote. Remain is possible. No deal is not inevitable.

    Brexiteers should read and note this.

    Those rejecting the deal are the ultra-Remainers useful idiots.
    I have lost faith in any of this. There is no good Brexit,Brexiteers are incompetent bufffoons pissing about in Oklahoma. The deal is an over complex technocratic fudge with a massive democratic deficit.

    I am not an ultra remainer. I am someone in despair. There is no good here. None at all.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    Jonathan said:

    HYUFD said:

    Shami Chakrabarti says Labour wants May to go back to the EU and negotiate something more in line with Labour's 6 tests ie permanent customs union and if not call a general election

    If she wants Labour votes, she needs to give Labour something. It’s not hard.
    Chakrabarti is struggling. You tell by her eyes. She has a dodgy brief to defend.

    On the other hand, Sturgeon was impressive and crystal clear earlier in the programme.

  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,136
    edited November 2018
    MaxPB said:


    Not saying it's likely, but:

    1) TMay gets challenged for the leadership and wins, so she's safe for a year
    2) ERG/DUP plan to vote down TMay's deal (or already did)
    3) SNP+LibDems+Centrist-Dad-Lab offer to vote for it on the condition the legislation makes it subject to a referendum, the other option being Remain
    4) TMay agrees, saying, "I totally didn't want to do this, but I had no option thanks to the disloyalty of the headbangers"

    Step 5 - Theresa uses step 4 to get enough headbangers and labour leavers in line, the bill passes.
    Yup, as long as the ERG are sensible, cold-headed rational actors they'll fall in line and there won't be a referendum.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OK. On this site, I've mentioned that Switzerland and the EU/EC/EEC had constantly renegotiated their relationship since the initial free trade agreement was signed in 1972.

    I said that there had been "half a dozen" changes.

    I would like to apologise.

    In total there have been 210 separate treaties between the EU/EC/EEC*, meaning that - on average - the relationship between the two entities is changed approximately every four months.

    * Not all of these are trade related, but I'm trying to make a point here.

    Any sensible Leaver must support the Deal, or we won’t be leaving at all.
    Box ticking only. Deal doesn’t really achieve anything. It is EU membership without democratic participation. Less control.
    No, it isn’t. That summary is just as inaccurate as the headbangers state.

    Read it, and the future political declaration too.
    It’s inferior to Remain.
    In your opinion.

    It brings an end to free movement, gets us out of the CAP and CFP and maintained frictionless trade. We will never ever be part of a superstate after this.

    It also gets us out of 80%+ of single market regulation and gives us near full freedom in services and digital technology, something which has been barely commented on at all in mainstream media.

    I am very, very interested in that and consider that a real prize.
    What do you think the chances are of the transition being extended beyond 2020?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    edited November 2018
    As mentioned on Marr too the Sunday Express this morning is reporting Boris and Davis are in talks to see who should run if May goes.

    Mogg is apparently ready to back Boris in return for being made Chancellor, while Steve Baker another ERG big beast will also get a Cabinet job. Davis is though also intending to run with the likely support of Raab.

    Gove is being lined up as a compromise in favour of 'the Norway EEA option' and staying in the single market and the customs union as well. Rudd, Morgan and Boles may back Gove but Philip Lee and Justine Greening could also run on an EUref2, pro Remain and 'reverse Brexit' ticket.


    Allies of May suggest if her Deal is rejected she may propose permanent Customs Union membership to get Labour support.


    The 48 letters figure is expected to be reached tomorrow now with a no confidence vote potentially as early as next week



    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1046795/brexit-news-theresa-may-confidence-vote-boris-johnson-jacob-rees-mogg-david-davis
  • Dadge said:

    TGOHF said:

    Based on May's answer about Graham Brady I'd say the letters are in.

    Opinion by paper reviewers on Marr is they haven't even though two more names have been added this week making it 25. Tom Newton Dunn doubts it is 40 yet, 8 short

    It was agreed that if the ERG do not achieve the vnoc they will be marginalised
    Depends - if the Cons continue to plummet in the polls then wavering MPs may tip the scales.
    No time to monitor polls. It is now a question of credibility for ERG
    Why should we care about ERG? Country shouldn't be held to ransom by these loons.
    I agree and I have no time whatsover for them
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,724
    Thought provoking article on the Guardian site. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/18/brexit-delusional-conmen-britain-never-never-land-eu
    Sub-heading is:Looking to our past for guidance is a big mistake – we’re no longer the nation of the Second World War or Suez

    The first paragraph is, I suggest, worthy of thought.
    After 40 years in the EEC/EU, the economy has changed radically again. London is where world capitalism does business, no longer one where British capitalism did the world’s business, as before 1914. Foreign capitalists own the infrastructures and factories of the UK, rather than the other way around. The world owed the British rich a living – they now depend on the capital of foreigners. Politics have changed radically, too. The Conservatives were once the party aiming and failing to create a common market of the British empire. Yet in government at the head of the largest and most efficient economy in Europe, they turned decisively in 1961 into the party that applied for accession to the Common Market, having failed to get the EEC even then to budge an inch on its policies. Labour was the party of economic nationalism and of most anti-marketeers. Since then those positions have reversed.
  • Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    There is nothing in this deal for me. Nothing.

    Remain offers more democratic control and a stronger economy. I want a second vote. Remain is possible. No deal is not inevitable.

    Brexiteers should read and note this.

    Those rejecting the deal are the ultra-Remainers useful idiots.
    I have lost faith in any of this. There is no good Brexit,Brexiteers are incompetent bufffoons pissing about in Oklahoma. The deal is an over complex technocratic fudge with a massive democratic deficit.

    I am not an ultra remainer. I am someone in despair. There is no good here. None at all.
    Sorry Jonathan but you have been a Remainer from the very start. To try and claim you have 'lost faith' now is more than a mite disingenuous.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Bang

    FF43 said:

    daodao said:

    FF43 said:

    Don’t worry Jeremy, the rest of us do know how you’d vote....

    https://twitter.com/MattChorley/status/1064084069099683840?s=20

    Corbyn turns out to be the most cynical politician of them all.
    Until the questions are set, Corbyn gave the most appropriate answer.
    Having followed up the news item, I agree his comments were taken out of context and I was responding to those.

    Nevertheless Corbyn's approach to Brexit remains highly cynical. He will just let disorder and inaction achieve what he wants - an exit - against the wishes of his party. He's dishonest in other respects - that wreath business for example. Meanwhile he and his supporters claim be is a breath of fresh air compared with other politicians.
    One of his first objections was to the limit of state aid in the deal. Says it all really, this deal or remain puts him in a straightjacket

    He is as much an ultra brexiteer as any in ERG
    This is probably a good summary of Corbynite thinking on it:
    https://twitter.com/graceblakeley/status/1063396631448600577
    Corbyn, the ERG and quite a lot of thick Tories are for no deal. All for their own stupid and/or malicious reasons, none of which have the interests of voters as their first priority.
  • swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    HYUFD said:

    As mentioned on Marr too the Sunday Express this morning is reporting Boris and Davis are in talks to see who should run if May goes.

    Mogg is apparently ready to back Boris in return for being made Chancellor, while Steve Baker another ERG big beast will also get a Cabinet job. Davis is though also intending to run with the likely support of Raab.

    Gove is being lined up as a compromise in favour of 'the Norway EEA option' and staying in the single market and the customs union as well. Rudd, Morgan and Boles may back Gove but Philip Lee and Justine Greening could also run on a pro Remain and 'reverse Brexit' ticket.


    Allies of May suggest if her Deal is rejected she may propose permanent Customs Union membership to get Labour support.


    The 48 letters figure is expected to be reached tomorrow now with a no confidence vote potentially as early as next week



    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1046795/brexit-news-theresa-may-confidence-vote-boris-johnson-jacob-rees-mogg-david-davis

    is this the best they can do

    to think that the Conservative party used to have a reputation for ruthlessness with its leaders when the time has come............
  • anothernickanothernick Posts: 3,547
    edited November 2018

    MaxPB said:


    Not saying it's likely, but:

    1) TMay gets challenged for the leadership and wins, so she's safe for a year
    2) ERG/DUP plan to vote down TMay's deal (or already did)
    3) SNP+LibDems+Centrist-Dad-Lab offer to vote for it on the condition the legislation makes it subject to a referendum, the other option being Remain
    4) TMay agrees, saying, "I totally didn't want to do this, but I had no option thanks to the disloyalty of the headbangers"

    Step 5 - Theresa uses step 4 to get enough headbangers and labour leavers in line, the bill passes.
    Yup, as long as the ERG are sensible, cold-headed rational actors they'll fall in line and there won't be a referendum.
    Sensible, cold headed and rational are not adjectives that would normally be used to describe the ERG. Idiotic angry cultists might perhaps be more appropriate.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,165

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    rcs1000 said:

    OK. On this site, I've mentioned that Switzerland and the EU/EC/EEC had constantly renegotiated their relationship since the initial free trade agreement was signed in 1972.

    I said that there had been "half a dozen" changes.

    I would like to apologise.

    In total there have been 210 separate treaties between the EU/EC/EEC*, meaning that - on average - the relationship between the two entities is changed approximately every four months.

    * Not all of these are trade related, but I'm trying to make a point here.

    Any sensible Leaver must support the Deal, or we won’t be leaving at all.
    Box ticking only. Deal doesn’t really achieve anything. It is EU membership without democratic participation. Less control.
    No, it isn’t. That summary is just as inaccurate as the headbangers state.

    Read it, and the future political declaration too.
    It’s inferior to Remain.
    In your opinion.

    It brings an end to free movement, gets us out of the CAP and CFP and maintained frictionless trade. We will never ever be part of a superstate after this.

    It also gets us out of 80%+ of single market regulation and gives us near full freedom in services and digital technology, something which has been barely commented on at all in mainstream media.

    I am very, very interested in that and consider that a real prize.
    Raab on Marr suggesting that what you say is far from certain.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,842
    Rexel56 said:

    Mildly amused by the nonsense in Oklahoma... but the surprise for me is that Oklahoma is able to enter into free trade agreements with other countries. In a minute I’m going to look at the WTO site to study Oklahoma’s default, most favoured nation, trade tariffs and work out an early negotiating strategy for Fox and his team.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbrnXl2gO_k
  • HYUFD said:

    As mentioned on Marr too the Sunday Express this morning is reporting Boris and Davis are in talks to see who should run if May goes.

    Mogg is apparently ready to back Boris in return for being made Chancellor, while Steve Baker another ERG big beast will also get a Cabinet job. Davis is though also intending to run with the likely support of Raab.

    Gove is being lined up as a compromise in favour of 'the Norway EEA option' and staying in the single market and the customs union as well. Rudd, Morgan and Boles may back Gove but Philip Lee and Justine Greening could also run on a pro Remain and 'reverse Brexit' ticket.


    Allies of May suggest if her Deal is rejected she may propose permanent Customs Union membership to get Labour support.


    The 48 letters figure is expected to be reached tomorrow now with a no confidence vote potentially as early as next week



    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1046795/brexit-news-theresa-may-confidence-vote-boris-johnson-jacob-rees-mogg-david-davis

    is this the best they can do

    to think that the Conservative party used to have a reputation for ruthlessness with its leaders when the time has come............
    The rules have changed and the risks involved are now far higher than they were in the past. A failure leaves May untouchable and able to do what she wants policy wise for the next year. Given that the ERG aim is to get rid of the policy not the person, they have to be a lot more cautious about strengthening May's hand.
  • Raab on Marr - Boris is not an ally and I support TM and will not be submitting a letter. Warfare in ERG
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,590

    rcs1000 said:

    OK. On this site, I've mentioned that Switzerland and the EU/EC/EEC had constantly renegotiated their relationship since the initial free trade agreement was signed in 1972.

    I said that there had been "half a dozen" changes.

    I would like to apologise.

    In total there have been 210 separate treaties between the EU/EC/EEC*, meaning that - on average - the relationship between the two entities is changed approximately every four months.

    * Not all of these are trade related, but I'm trying to make a point here.

    Any sensible Leaver must support the Deal, or we won’t be leaving at all.
    It is a very bad deal and I will never forgive May for getting us to this point. I certainly won't be voting for her at the next GE. But because of the risk of her engineering a Remain/No Deal vote if this falls and the risk of Remain winning that, I very reluctantly agree with you.

    May never understood Brexit. She didn't vote for it and, with all her other myriad faults, she was the worst person to be in charge these last 2 years. That is why this deal is so bad. But it is what we have for now so I would support it over the risk of Remain, which I genuinely believe would bring about a collapse in our democracy and decades of strife in this country.
    I don't see why you have a problem with it. It doesn't preclude Norway as the long term relationship.
    Norway is not in the customs union. This is a long way worse than Norway, which is what we should have gone for at the very start. I can support the deal because it is not a complete disaster and because it does get us outside the main institutions of the EU. But it is a sow's ear for sure.
    Would there ever have been a majority for Norway ?
    Certainly not among the Tories, and a large percentage of Leavers would have rejected it.

    While I agree that Norway would be a desirable Brexit outcome, I think those who voted leave thinking it possible were deluding themselves.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,590

    Raab on Marr - Boris is not an ally and I support TM and will not be submitting a letter. Warfare in ERG

    More like fission in the Tory party.
    Are they bent on self-destruction ?

  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    HYUFD said:

    As mentioned on Marr too the Sunday Express this morning is reporting Boris and Davis are in talks to see who should run if May goes.

    Mogg is apparently ready to back Boris in return for being made Chancellor, while Steve Baker another ERG big beast will also get a Cabinet job. Davis is though also intending to run with the likely support of Raab.

    Gove is being lined up as a compromise in favour of 'the Norway EEA option' and staying in the single market and the customs union as well. Rudd, Morgan and Boles may back Gove but Philip Lee and Justine Greening could also run on a pro Remain and 'reverse Brexit' ticket.


    Allies of May suggest if her Deal is rejected she may propose permanent Customs Union membership to get Labour support.


    The 48 letters figure is expected to be reached tomorrow now with a no confidence vote potentially as early as next week



    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1046795/brexit-news-theresa-may-confidence-vote-boris-johnson-jacob-rees-mogg-david-davis

    is this the best they can do

    to think that the Conservative party used to have a reputation for ruthlessness with its leaders when the time has come............
    The rules have changed and the risks involved are now far higher than they were in the past. A failure leaves May untouchable and able to do what she wants policy wise for the next year. Given that the ERG aim is to get rid of the policy not the person, they have to be a lot more cautious about strengthening May's hand.
    Do you personally claim much if any alignment with where the ERG want to apparently go on Brexit?
  • HYUFD said:

    As mentioned on Marr too the Sunday Express this morning is reporting Boris and Davis are in talks to see who should run if May goes.

    Mogg is apparently ready to back Boris in return for being made Chancellor, while Steve Baker another ERG big beast will also get a Cabinet job. Davis is though also intending to run with the likely support of Raab.

    Gove is being lined up as a compromise in favour of 'the Norway EEA option' and staying in the single market and the customs union as well. Rudd, Morgan and Boles may back Gove but Philip Lee and Justine Greening could also run on an EUref2, pro Remain and 'reverse Brexit' ticket.


    Allies of May suggest if her Deal is rejected she may propose permanent Customs Union membership to get Labour support.


    The 48 letters figure is expected to be reached tomorrow now with a no confidence vote potentially as early as next week



    https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1046795/brexit-news-theresa-may-confidence-vote-boris-johnson-jacob-rees-mogg-david-davis

    All in the Express of course
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,901
    edited November 2018

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    There is nothing in this deal for me. Nothing.

    Remain offers more democratic control and a stronger economy. I want a second vote. Remain is possible. No deal is not inevitable.

    Brexiteers should read and note this.

    Those rejecting the deal are the ultra-Remainers useful idiots.
    I have lost faith in any of this. There is no good Brexit,Brexiteers are incompetent bufffoons pissing about in Oklahoma. The deal is an over complex technocratic fudge with a massive democratic deficit.

    I am not an ultra remainer. I am someone in despair. There is no good here. None at all.
    Sorry Jonathan but you have been a Remainer from the very start. To try and claim you have 'lost faith' now is more than a mite disingenuous.
    Not quite. I voted remain on the basis that the EU was more reformable than Westminster/Whitehall. I stand by that.

    Having lost, as a democrat I was fully prepared to accept a new direction. Weirdly for democratic reasons I am more attracted to the more independent version of Brexit if that could be made to work economically.

    What I cannot accept is the current utter chaos and incompetence. I also cannot accept a situation where the EU gets to vote on our laws and we don’t and a deal tha potentially we cannot escape. One day in an extreme unlikely scenario , God forbid, AFD and FN could run Europe and under some scenarios talked about today we could do nothing. At least in the EU we can leave unilaterally.

    In the light of all this. We are better off back in. We need a vote to do it and should make arrangements now.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    When will it dawn on the Tories that th
    TGOHF said:

    Cyclefree said:



    TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    alex. said:

    Dura_Ace said:







    Someone needs to end this nonsense. It’s pathetic. David Davis is a fool.
    He worse than that. He is a danger to our whole economy
    May might be a very poor politician with a tin ear, no ability to convince people or unable to think on her feet - but, she is not actively dangerous like Davis who is mind bogglingly incompetant.
    Maybe tin ear against ERG is exactly what is needed
    Her tin ear is her downfall. You cannot adapt or convince if you do not listen.

    She has one argument and one technique stating ‘I am right’ over and over again in the hope people will just get bored. She used this on technical mattered in the home office, but on this others disagree and she is doing nothing to convince them.
    I think her real downfall is worse than than a tin ear - she goes behind peoples' backs and actively undermines them. It's the story of Brexit. People have a post, then discover she has agreed to something that comes out of the blue. Which might be fine, if everybody else in her party wasn't going "WTF???" at the stuff she concedes.
    She does seem to lack trust in Davis and Raab. On the basis of what we’ve seen I can’t say I blame her.
    She's either spectacularly failed at getting a reasonable deal or spectacularly failed at selling the deal to her own party, the opposition and the nation.

    Or more likely both.

    She has to go - she is simply not up to the job.
    She is more up to the job than any of the “extremist ninnies” (copyright: Alistair Meeks) who might replace her.

    At what point, I wonder, will it dawn on the Tories that the EU deal is a final offer and they couldn’t care less about the psychodramas that intellectually challenged Tory or Labour politicians are going through?
    When will it dawn on the wets in the Con party that their supporters not bothering to vote in the future is a big problem for them ?
    When will it dawn on the Tories that losing votes from the uncommitted middle, those who want a modicum of competence, is a big problem for them?
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 12,884

    Jonathan said:

    There is nothing in this deal for me. Nothing.

    Remain offers more democratic control and a stronger economy. I want a second vote. Remain is possible. No deal is not inevitable.

    Brexiteers should read and note this.

    Those rejecting the deal are the ultra-Remainers useful idiots.
    It's over. The T-34s are grinding down the Unter den Linden.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Makes one wonder how many are in the ERG because their constituency parties demand it...

  • Nigelb said:

    Raab on Marr - Boris is not an ally and I support TM and will not be submitting a letter. Warfare in ERG

    More like fission in the Tory party.
    Are they bent on self-destruction ?

    Raab positioning towards the centre and attacking Boris does him no harm
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    Nigelb said:

    Raab on Marr - Boris is not an ally and I support TM and will not be submitting a letter. Warfare in ERG

    More like fission in the Tory party.
    Are they bent on self-destruction ?

    I could not care less if the Tories destroy themselves. Just so long as they don’t destroy the country with them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719

    Raab on Marr - Boris is not an ally and I support TM and will not be submitting a letter. Warfare in ERG

    Raab is apparently backing Davis not Boris in the Express report. He also made clear he will vote against the Deal
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,590
    Cyclefree said:

    When will it dawn on the Tories that th

    TGOHF said:

    Cyclefree said:



    TGOHF said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Jonathan said:

    Foxy said:

    alex. said:

    Dura_Ace said:







    Someone needs to end this nonsense. It’s pathetic. David Davis is a fool.
    He worse than that. He is a danger to our whole economy
    May might be a very poor politician with a tin ear, no ability to convince people or unable to think on her feet - but, she is not actively dangerous like Davis who is mind bogglingly incompetant.
    Maybe tin ear against ERG is exactly what is needed
    Her tin ear is her downfall. You cannot adapt or convince if you do not listen.

    She has one argument and one technique stating ‘I am right’ over and over again in the hope people will just get bored. She used this on technical mattered in the home office, but on this others disagree and she is doing nothing to convince them.
    "WTF???" at the stuff she concedes.
    She does seem to lack trust in Davis and Raab. On the basis of what we’ve seen I can’t say I blame her.
    She's either spectacularly failed at getting a reasonable deal or spectacularly failed at selling the deal to her own party, the opposition and the nation.

    Or more likely both.

    She has to go - she is simply not up to the job.
    She is more up to the job than any of the “extremist ninnies” (copyright: Alistair Meeks) who might replace her.

    At what point, I wonder, will it dawn on the Tories that the EU deal is a final offer and they couldn’t care less about the psychodramas that intellectually challenged Tory or Labour politicians are going through?
    When will it dawn on the wets in the Con party that their supporters not bothering to vote in the future is a big problem for them ?
    When will it dawn on the Tories that losing votes from the uncommitted middle, those who want a modicum of competence, is a big problem for them?
    After losing an election, perhaps.

This discussion has been closed.