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  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961
    edited December 2018

    Fenman said:

    IanB2 said:

    If Westminster decides to can Brexit, it is going to be a glorious time subseuently to be a Brexiteer, as EVERYTHING that goes wrong in the UK gets blamed on the Remainers.

    It will be great sport, hounding each and every one of them from office....

    I don't think people are going to forget the fiasco of recent months as quickly as that. The Brexit hardnuts aren't going to be getting a hearing any time soon.
    The Brexit voters will die off. Or go back to abstaining, racing whippets or pidgeons and indulging in their usual hobbies of racism and homophobia while we remainers will be working hard to pay their benefits and pensions.
    You expect harmony post a remain brexit and produce bile like that

    I have a suggestion to make in the national interest cut out the insult and be magnanimous if we remain you will be the victor and there will be a huge amount of reconcillation needed
    I think we are long, long, LONG past the point where the Brexiteer dipshits that caused this omnishambles should expect ANY magnanimity.

    image
    That sums up you completely. However, I have faith in the decency of the general public
    If you think the Referendum minority remainers are on the whole content to just quietly let slide two years of needless social strife and political chaos that these utterly contemptible berks of a majority of the voters have wrought, I think you're in for a disappointment.

    “We should forgive our enemies, but not before they are hanged” - Heinrich Heine

    You may regret airing those words....
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047

    Fenman said:

    Floater said:

    Fenman said:

    IanB2 said:

    If Westminster decides to can Brexit, it is going to be a glorious time subseuently to be a Brexiteer, as EVERYTHING that goes wrong in the UK gets blamed on the Remainers.

    It will be great sport, hounding each and every one of them from office....

    I don't think people are going to forget the fiasco of recent months as quickly as that. The Brexit hardnuts aren't going to be getting a hearing any time soon.
    The Brexit voters will die off. Or go back to abstaining, racing whippets or pidgeons and indulging in their usual hobbies of racism and homophobia while we remainers will be working hard to pay their benefits and pensions.
    LOL - all that post does is show your own nastiness.
    In
    My nastiness? I'm a Remainer. Also, I'm told a Traitor, a Saboteur and a Quisling. And I'm the nasty one?
    Yep.
    I shall then wear it as a Badgo of Honour.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Donny43 said:

    IanB2 said:

    If Westminster decides to can Brexit, it is going to be a glorious time subseuently to be a Brexiteer, as EVERYTHING that goes wrong in the UK gets blamed on the Remainers.

    It will be great sport, hounding each and every one of them from office....

    I don't think people are going to forget the fiasco of recent months as quickly as that. The Brexit hardnuts aren't going to be getting a hearing any time soon.
    With respect that is naive and almost arrogant.

    I condemn the ultra brexiteers totally but they believe in their cause as much as you in the EU and they will continue, post a lost referendum, and possibly with growing support in leave areas as the EU continue to dominate the political agenda
    Doesn't matter though, because we'll be in the EU, the ECJ will be able to veto A50 in the future, no government will ever again even consider embarking on this shit show, and in a few years the mostly elderly and gammon Brexiteers will all have died of old age and heart disease.
    The next election, the Tory Party gets smashed by a huge strike by ex-supporters.

    Corbyn comes in, wrecks the economy whilst getting us mired even further into the EU. A whole new generation comes to hate him - and the EU.

    The election after that (which may not be very long), the EU dominates the agenda - and a whole new generation comes to blame the EU for the reason they have no job/house/hope....

    A new anti-EU party comes in, pledging just to walk away. Gets a majority. Honours its pledge....

    THAT is what the wreckers of Remain will have spawned.
    lol - Politics moves very quickly these days. I think the Tories are going to take a hit anyway, so they might as well do the right thing in terms of the economy and keep the UK in the EU to stop all the problems with the economy and Northern Ireland occurring in a hard Brexit.

    Brexit does NOT work, if the UK does a hard Brexit it will be a similar effect to the UK putting sanctions on its own economy for relations to the EU. I still cannot understand the sheer stupidity of the No Deal brigade, it is economic suicide. A deal would be reasonably alright but not as good as staying in the EU.
    This assumes that no damage would be done by abandoning democracy.
    The Tories are going to take a short-term hit whatever happens. MP expenses was even worse for politicians and political parties IMO. These things come and go. I think the population will be more exercised if medication and the NHS care they receive noticeably gets worse because of a Hard Brexit.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    Fenman said:

    Floater said:

    Fenman said:

    IanB2 said:

    If Westminster decides to can Brexit, it is going to be a glorious time subseuently to be a Brexiteer, as EVERYTHING that goes wrong in the UK gets blamed on the Remainers.

    It will be great sport, hounding each and every one of them from office....

    I don't think people are going to forget the fiasco of recent months as quickly as that. The Brexit hardnuts aren't going to be getting a hearing any time soon.
    The Brexit voters will die off. Or go back to abstaining, racing whippets or pidgeons and indulging in their usual hobbies of racism and homophobia while we remainers will be working hard to pay their benefits and pensions.
    LOL - all that post does is show your own nastiness.
    In
    My nastiness? I'm a Remainer. Also, I'm told a Traitor, a Saboteur and a Quisling. And I'm the nasty one?
    Nasty words have been thrown around on both sides. If people want to suggest one has been nastier than the other that is a debate that can be had, and frankly as the examples you reference suggest I don't think Leave will come out covered with glory in such a debate, but there is plenty of bitterness and nastiness to be found elsewhere, nor are such things really very relevant right at this moment in time - what are the choices before us and how can worst outcomes be avoided are the key. Who to yell at and blame can surely wait a few weeks while we await parliament hopefully finding a way through this mess - we'll have decades to persist with the nastiness and blame.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234


    You may regret airing those words....

    I'll be the first against the wall of Boris's Gammon Army I'm sure.


  • IanB2 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1071071316080517120

    Or, the vote will be pulled Sunday evening and we can all get back to writing xmas cards.

    Tezza can write her resignation speech instead.
    Hard to see any circumstance that May resigns of her own accord.

    The Conservative Party was always good at replacing their leaders when required.

    Not so sure they are as ruthless as they used to be.
    This is unique in some ways as there is a deadline and to replace TM requires a leadership race and member vote. In normal circumstances it would barely be over by Brexit

    As someone who has respect and admiration for TM persistance and ability to achieve a middle of the road Brexit, despite unprecedented levels of critiscm and indeed misogny, I am fairly certain she will want to see this through but events could overwhelm her

    Sadly for the Country, and notwithstanding TM faults, I do not see a replacement being able to take this forward without a referendum - indeed that must be heading for default position

    I do fear a second referendum, and it will not be a pleasant experience or resolve the issue in the medium term, but so be it
    It will never resolve the issue. It is pointless and dangerous.
    Whatever your personal preference, it certainly isn't pointless.

    If the eventual outcome is Remain, the point is that a people's vote gives this a legitimacy that a straightforward decision by parliament would never have, despite the arguments for the latter. Obviously a decisive margin would be better than another narrow result.

    If the eventual outcome is to leave with the transitional deal, or something similar, the point is that the people will have directed their representatives to put aside their quibbling with the detail and press ahead with leaving, recognising that the shape of the future settlement is still all to play for.
    Nope it is still illegitimate and will be regarded as such by a very large part of the population. The idea that this will just go away because you manage to stop Brexit this time (which is the only reason Remainers want a second referendum) is utter fantasy.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    The leader of the Conservative-led Kent county council has urged MPs to think “long and hard” about voting against Theresa May’s Brexit deal, warning that no-deal gridlock in Dover would spread chaos around the country at a cost of almost £1.75bn a week to the economy.

    After publishing stark no-deal contingency plans for the county on Thursday night, Paul Carter said Kent would need “boots on the ground” and government resources to ensure that the local and national economy kept moving.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,961


    You may regret airing those words....

    I'll be the first against the wall of Boris's Gammon Army I'm sure.


    It's the lot of the Lord of Misrule.....
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    kle4 said:


    Personally I'd rather we Brexited, but relatively softly to try to accomodate as many people as possible, but if MPs are that horrified by Brexit they should do as you suggest. Or refuse to have done it in the first place, but few MPs are that brave or had little to lose by doing so. But they should show some spine. Many have clearly been waiting for a chance to remain, and should just not have triggered A50 - abstain if they felt they could not support it but recognised the public vote.

    Parliament will try for Norway+, there might even be a charmingly short-lived moment of harmony before the EU emphatically says "No".
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325
    Despite the current aberration in the White House, I would far prefer to be working with the Americans for our defence than a Franco-German axis that has only a thinly disguised Anglophobia.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    More NC9 hilarity. There's a reciept for the election fraud.

    https://twitter.com/JoeBrunoWSOC9/status/1071055327595061249?s=19
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    IanB2 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1071071316080517120

    Or, the vote will be pulled Sunday evening and we can all get back to writing xmas cards.

    Tezza can write her resignation speech instead.
    Hard to see any circumstance that May resigns of her own accord.

    The Conservative Party was always good at replacing their leaders when required.

    Not so sure they are as ruthless as they used to be.
    This is unique in some ways as there is a deadline and to replace TM requires a leadership race and member vote. In normal circumstances it would barely be over by Brexit

    As someone who has respect and admiration for TM persistance and ability to achieve a middle of the road Brexit, despite unprecedented levels of critiscm and indeed misogny, I am fairly certain she will want to see this through but events could overwhelm her

    Sadly for the Country, and notwithstanding TM faults, I do not see a replacement being able to take this forward without a referendum - indeed that must be heading for default position

    I do fear a second referendum, and it will not be a pleasant experience or resolve the issue in the medium term, but so be it
    It will never resolve the issue. It is pointless and dangerous.
    Whatever your personal preference, it certainly isn't pointless.

    If the eventual outcome is Remain, the point is that a people's vote gives this a legitimacy that a straightforward decision by parliament would never have, despite the arguments for the latter. Obviously a decisive margin would be better than another narrow result.

    If the eventual outcome is to leave with the transitional deal, or something similar, the point is that the people will have directed their representatives to put aside their quibbling with the detail and press ahead with leaving, recognising that the shape of the future settlement is still all to play for.
    Nope it is still illegitimate and will be regarded as such by a very large part of the population. The idea that this will just go away because you manage to stop Brexit this time (which is the only reason Remainers want a second referendum) is utter fantasy.
    Even if we accept your premise, it is better done with a democratic vote than without. So the vote wouldn't be 'pointless', as I was saying.
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325

    IanB2 said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Floater said:

    https://twitter.com/IanDunt/status/1071071316080517120

    Or, the vote will be pulled Sunday evening and we can all get back to writing xmas cards.

    Tezza can write her resignation speech instead.
    Hard to see any circumstance that May resigns of her own accord.

    The Conservative Party was always good at replacing their leaders when required.

    Not so sure they are as ruthless as they used to be.
    This is unique in some ways as there is a deadline and to replace TM requires a leadership race and member vote. In normal circumstances it would barely be over by Brexit

    As someone who has respect and admiration for TM persistance and ability to achieve a middle of the road Brexit, despite unprecedented levels of critiscm and indeed misogny, I am fairly certain she will want to see this through but events could overwhelm her

    Sadly for the Country, and notwithstanding TM faults, I do not see a replacement being able to take this forward without a referendum - indeed that must be heading for default position

    I do fear a second referendum, and it will not be a pleasant experience or resolve the issue in the medium term, but so be it
    It will never resolve the issue. It is pointless and dangerous.
    Whatever your personal preference, it certainly isn't pointless.

    If the eventual outcome is Remain, the point is that a people's vote gives this a legitimacy that a straightforward decision by parliament would never have, despite the arguments for the latter. Obviously a decisive margin would be better than another narrow result.

    If the eventual outcome is to leave with the transitional deal, or something similar, the point is that the people will have directed their representatives to put aside their quibbling with the detail and press ahead with leaving, recognising that the shape of the future settlement is still all to play for.
    Nope it is still illegitimate and will be regarded as such by a very large part of the population. The idea that this will just go away because you manage to stop Brexit this time (which is the only reason Remainers want a second referendum) is utter fantasy.
    It took 40 years for a second referendum last time. If this one isn't given 5 it would be a disgrace.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    edited December 2018



    The Tories are going to take a short-term hit whatever happens. MP expenses was even worse for politicians and political parties IMO. These things come and go. I think the population will be more exercised if medication and the NHS care they receive noticeably gets worse because of a Hard Brexit.

    It is not the Tories I am concerned about. They can fall apart and I would shed no tears. It is basic faith in democracy that you will destroy. Why bother voting if they will just ignore you? That is the question that will be pushed at the public incessantly going forward. MPs expenses will be a walk in the park by comparison
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325


    You may regret airing those words....

    I'll be the first against the wall of Boris's Gammon Army I'm sure.


    In one post you claim your side isn't nasty, in the next you use racist attacks.
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325

    kle4 said:


    Personally I'd rather we Brexited, but relatively softly to try to accomodate as many people as possible, but if MPs are that horrified by Brexit they should do as you suggest. Or refuse to have done it in the first place, but few MPs are that brave or had little to lose by doing so. But they should show some spine. Many have clearly been waiting for a chance to remain, and should just not have triggered A50 - abstain if they felt they could not support it but recognised the public vote.

    Parliament will try for Norway+, there might even be a charmingly short-lived moment of harmony before the EU emphatically says "No".
    Norway+, which fails Labour's six tests? What hypocrites Labour Remainers are.

    Anyway, Norway has already ruled it out.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234


    Nope it is still illegitimate and will be regarded as such by a very large part of the population. The idea that this will just go away because you manage to stop Brexit this time (which is the only reason Remainers want a second referendum) is utter fantasy.

    Of course it will go away. The gammons will be FURIOUS. But they were furious before. And they'll be completely impotent from now on. ALL we have to do to fix this omnishambles is stitch up the Brexiteers, and let them know we're doing it. Let them know how totally, utterly and inescapably BEATEN they've been. Humiliated, beyond recovery, impotent beyond redemption.

    No UK government will ever contemplate leaving again having witnessed the shitshow it will unleash, and even if it did, the ECJ would be able to veto it.

    The problem will have gone away.

    If the worst impact the UK has to suffer from this omnishambles is gammons huffing ineffectually below the line on Mail Online stories, I think we can all pat ourselves on the back for a job well done.
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325
    Clearly the country is incredibly divided over Brexit. The only route forward can be one that addresses some of the concerns of both sides. That means repatriating some laws and immigration limits for Leavers and economic access and good relationships with our neighbours for Remainers.

    Those who don't want any compromise at all with the other side are people that will tear this country apart.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Theo said:

    It took 40 years for a second referendum last time. If this one isn't given 5 it would be a disgrace.

    No-one seemed to complain that Labour promised to take us out of the EEC in 1983 without a referendum.

    image
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Theo said:

    kle4 said:


    Personally I'd rather we Brexited, but relatively softly to try to accomodate as many people as possible, but if MPs are that horrified by Brexit they should do as you suggest. Or refuse to have done it in the first place, but few MPs are that brave or had little to lose by doing so. But they should show some spine. Many have clearly been waiting for a chance to remain, and should just not have triggered A50 - abstain if they felt they could not support it but recognised the public vote.

    Parliament will try for Norway+, there might even be a charmingly short-lived moment of harmony before the EU emphatically says "No".
    Norway+, which fails Labour's six tests? What hypocrites Labour Remainers are.

    Anyway, Norway has already ruled it out.
    No, it hasn't. But I suspect the proposal will never make it as far as the point where Norway could have a meaningful veto. The EU's refusal to extend A50 and re-open the WA will doom Norway+ far sooner than Norway could.
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325

    Theo said:

    It took 40 years for a second referendum last time. If this one isn't given 5 it would be a disgrace.

    No-one seemed to complain that Labour promised to take us out of the EEC in 1983 without a referendum.

    image
    I was an infant at the time so was too busy learning to walk. Apologies.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 47,789
    Theo said:

    Clearly the country is incredibly divided over Brexit. The only route forward can be one that addresses some of the concerns of both sides. That means repatriating some laws and immigration limits for Leavers and economic access and good relationships with our neighbours for Remainers.

    Those who don't want any compromise at all with the other side are people that will tear this country apart.

    May I suggest a better compromise: EU membership for Remainers, and humiliation of the political class for Leavers.

    A second referendum would deliver both.
  • VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,429
    Would Norway veto a Norway + deal?
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Theo said:

    Clearly the country is incredibly divided over Brexit. The only route forward can be one that addresses some of the concerns of both sides. That means repatriating some laws and immigration limits for Leavers and economic access and good relationships with our neighbours for Remainers.

    Those who don't want any compromise at all with the other side are people that will tear this country apart.

    There is only one way a civil war ends. With the utter obliteration of their enemy.

    Remainers now have the total, complete, final and irrevocable destruction of the Brexiteers within spitting distance. Of course they will take it.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    kle4 said:

    kle4 said:

    Fenman said:

    kle4 said:

    Fenman said:

    IanB2 said:

    If Westminster decides to can Brexit, it is going to be a glorious time subseuently to be a Brexiteer, as EVERYTHING that goes wrong in the UK gets blamed on the Remainers.

    They probably won't. Dismissing the concerns that are more popular with pensioners but which are significant minorities elsewhere though, because they are just ignorant racists, is hardly a recipe for resolving the problems we have.

    And if referenda are so silly there is no need for one to correct our current course. Yes that would be hard for MPs, but if they could not countenance the outcome people at the time wanted and which they legislated to make the default option, they should not have done so and if they have to cancel it without asking the people again to ensure we avoid catastrophe they should suck it up and do it.
    I think MPs should just Stop Brexit and take a hit!
    Personally I'd rather we Brexited, but relatively softly to try to accomodate as many people as possible, but if MPs are that horrified by Brexit they should do as you suggest. Or refuse to have done it in the first place, but few MPs are that brave or had little to lose by doing so. But they should show some spine. Many have clearly been waiting for a chance to remain, and should just not have triggered A50 - abstain if they felt they could not support it but recognised the public vote.
    Politicians are often spineless, they do as they are told. Awkward people don't really get on in politics and even Margret Thatcher did what she was told until she became leader, some might argue that she still did what she was told when leader i.e. ERM!

    In terms of Brexit I understand why some people are so enraged about any talk about abandoning Brexit but the truth is all of this is too late after decades of economic integration.

    People might not be getting their fair share and suffer because of inequality but that is not the EU's fault but the UK government or the UK political parties for not implementing policies that would enhance peoples lives.

    I think that the media in the UK is responsible for the misconception of the EU and I focus particularly on the print media or Tory press to be exact. If people in the UK are bothered about German or Continental power and influence over the UK then, neutering the UKs economy and diminishing the resources that will consequentially occur from Brexit for the Military is not going to positively change anything in the UKs favour.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited December 2018
    Yorkcity said:

    I am expecting May to call a referendum if her deal is defeated in parliament.

    As this seem the logic to her touring the country speaking to the public.

    Also her denials at such a course of action are not to be taken literally.

    Not convinced: her authority to do anything will be completely spent if the deal is voted down. I'm persuaded by Alastair Meeks' recent piece and think she's likely to resign, but even if she doesn't it'll probably just be to try to get her deal through at the second attempt - what's been nicknamed the TARP scenario in parts of the press - and then fall on her sword if it doesn't work.

    The Tories have two issues to deal with here, resolving Brexit and doing it without destroying their own party. I don't see how any successor to May will be able to win a leadership election on a platform that includes a second vote, and even if they conveniently changed their minds immediately after entering office - ensuring that nobody would trust their word ever again right from the outset - then they'd have a great deal of trouble getting through the legislative process (for which they would obviously be reliant on Opposition support,) let alone the referendum process, without both causing a formal split in the Conservative Party and losing the support of the DUP. A General Election would be highly likely to follow, in dire circumstances for the Right.

    I also maintain my assertion that a second referendum would be highly unlikely to deliver a decisive result, and that whichever way it went it would solve nothing in the long run regardless.
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325


    Nope it is still illegitimate and will be regarded as such by a very large part of the population. The idea that this will just go away because you manage to stop Brexit this time (which is the only reason Remainers want a second referendum) is utter fantasy.

    Of course it will go away. The gammons will be FURIOUS. But they were furious before. And they'll be completely impotent from now on. ALL we have to do to fix this omnishambles is stitch up the Brexiteers, and let them know we're doing it. Let them know how totally, utterly and inescapably BEATEN they've been. Humiliated, beyond recovery, impotent beyond redemption.

    No UK government will ever contemplate leaving again having witnessed the shitshow it will unleash, and even if it did, the ECJ would be able to veto it.

    The problem will have gone away.

    If the worst impact the UK has to suffer from this omnishambles is gammons huffing ineffectually below the line on Mail Online stories, I think we can all pat ourselves on the back for a job well done.
    This post just shows what a sad, pathetic individual you are, motivated by hatred and racism. What drives a person to be like this? A lack of a loving mother in childhood? Social ostracisation in your teens? Whichever it is, you have my pity.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Theo said:


    Nope it is still illegitimate and will be regarded as such by a very large part of the population. The idea that this will just go away because you manage to stop Brexit this time (which is the only reason Remainers want a second referendum) is utter fantasy.

    Of course it will go away. The gammons will be FURIOUS. But they were furious before. And they'll be completely impotent from now on. ALL we have to do to fix this omnishambles is stitch up the Brexiteers, and let them know we're doing it. Let them know how totally, utterly and inescapably BEATEN they've been. Humiliated, beyond recovery, impotent beyond redemption.

    No UK government will ever contemplate leaving again having witnessed the shitshow it will unleash, and even if it did, the ECJ would be able to veto it.

    The problem will have gone away.

    If the worst impact the UK has to suffer from this omnishambles is gammons huffing ineffectually below the line on Mail Online stories, I think we can all pat ourselves on the back for a job well done.
    This post just shows what a sad, pathetic individual you are, motivated by hatred and racism. What drives a person to be like this? A lack of a loving mother in childhood? Social ostracisation in your teens? Whichever it is, you have my pity.
    Look, I understand losing is hard. But don't struggle. It will only hurt more. It will all be over soon.
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Leavers are experts on everything . I mean what do the road hauliers know about Dover!

    It’s quite astonishing how people who work in a sector are derided constantly as project fear. The country is screwed !

    All common sense and logic has gone out of the window to be replaced by almost cult like devotion to Brexit .

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    edited December 2018


    You may regret airing those words....

    I'll be the first against the wall of Boris's Gammon Army I'm sure.


    It's the lot of the Lord of Misrule.....
    I'd be quite happy to be shot at by a firing party commanded by Boris. Not only would he struggle to come to a decision on when to fire, but he would point them at the wrong target and then change his mind about shooting me anyway.

    It would be like the Monty Python sketch only crazier.
  • Fenman said:

    kle4 said:

    Fenman said:

    IanB2 said:

    If Westminster decides to can Brexit, it is going to be a glorious time subseuently to be a Brexiteer, as EVERYTHING that goes wrong in the UK gets blamed on the Remainers.

    It will be great sport, hounding each and every one of them from office....

    I don't think people are going to forget the fiasco of recent months as quickly as that. The Brexit hardnuts aren't going to be getting a hearing any time soon.
    The Brexit voters will die off. Or go back to abstaining, racing whippets or pidgeons and indulging in their usual hobbies of racism and homophobia while we remainers will be working hard to pay their benefits and pensions.
    You have learned so much from the problems they led to a leave vote in the first place, thank goodness you are not being complacent about there still being issues. It's not like politics is complicated in anyway, the bad guys die off and it is just that easy.
    Politics is complicated, which is why it is best to leave it to professionals and experts and not hold silly referenda The problems we are facing include housing and inequality of opportunity These will not be solved by pandering to pensioners.
    They are not going to be solved by pandering to kids either.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,841
    Alistair said:

    More NC9 hilarity. There's a reciept for the election fraud.

    https://twitter.com/JoeBrunoWSOC9/status/1071055327595061249?s=19

    Quite right too. Can't be too careful. Don't want to give the IRS any reason to investigate your vote fixing business.
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325

    Theo said:

    Clearly the country is incredibly divided over Brexit. The only route forward can be one that addresses some of the concerns of both sides. That means repatriating some laws and immigration limits for Leavers and economic access and good relationships with our neighbours for Remainers.

    Those who don't want any compromise at all with the other side are people that will tear this country apart.

    May I suggest a better compromise: EU membership for Remainers, and humiliation of the political class for Leavers.

    A second referendum would deliver both.
    Between you and the racist grabcocque, we have on display the true mindset of Remainers. An attitude of no compromising contempt and hatred. Whether it takes on vote or two, let us see whether MPs embrace such a nasty view of the world.
  • Donny43Donny43 Posts: 634

    The Tories are going to take a short-term hit whatever happens. MP expenses was even worse for politicians and political parties IMO. These things come and go. I think the population will be more exercised if medication and the NHS care they receive noticeably gets worse because of a Hard Brexit.

    I'm not talking about the Tories, I'm talking about our society and by implication our economy.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    Fenman said:

    kle4 said:

    Fenman said:

    IanB2 said:

    If Westminster decides to can Brexit, it is going to be a glorious time subseuently to be a Brexiteer, as EVERYTHING that goes wrong in the UK gets blamed on the Remainers.

    It will be great sport, hounding each and every one of them from office....

    I don't think people are going to forget the fiasco of recent months as quickly as that. The Brexit hardnuts aren't going to be getting a hearing any time soon.
    The Brexit voters will die off. Or go back to abstaining, racing whippets or pidgeons and indulging in their usual hobbies of racism and homophobia while we remainers will be working hard to pay their benefits and pensions.
    You have learned so much from the problems they led to a leave vote in the first place, thank goodness you are not being complacent about there still being issues. It's not like politics is complicated in anyway, the bad guys die off and it is just that easy.
    Politics is complicated, which is why it is best to leave it to professionals and experts and not hold silly referenda The problems we are facing include housing and inequality of opportunity These will not be solved by pandering to pensioners.
    They are not going to be solved by pandering to kids either.
    TBH, if we'd let kids negotiate the withdrawal deal rather than Brexiteers, we'd probably be somewhat better off.

    At least children are mostly aware they have no idea what they're doing, unlike May and her merry band of Brexitwunts.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    Theo said:

    Clearly the country is incredibly divided over Brexit. The only route forward can be one that addresses some of the concerns of both sides. That means repatriating some laws and immigration limits for Leavers and economic access and good relationships with our neighbours for Remainers.

    Those who don't want any compromise at all with the other side are people that will tear this country apart.

    There is only one way a civil war ends. With the utter obliteration of their enemy.

    Remainers now have the total, complete, final and irrevocable destruction of the Brexiteers within spitting distance. Of course they will take it.
    I'd recommend your going away and doing a bit of studying on civil wars.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979



    The Tories are going to take a short-term hit whatever happens. MP expenses was even worse for politicians and political parties IMO. These things come and go. I think the population will be more exercised if medication and the NHS care they receive noticeably gets worse because of a Hard Brexit.

    It is not the Tories I am concerned about. They can fall apart and I would shed no tears. It is basic faith in democracy that you will destroy. Why bother voting if they will just ignore you? That is the question that will be pushed at the public incessantly going forward. MPs expenses will be a walk in the park by comparison
    I don't think you have ever canvassed opinion for a political party. Believe me MP expenses was far far worse! People forget, personally I don't care what happens to any political party. The main two will always survive. Political parties in government always lose support, it is part of the political cycle. So, in this case the Tories need to take a hit and cancel Brexit for the interests of the country.
  • Donny43Donny43 Posts: 634



    The Tories are going to take a short-term hit whatever happens. MP expenses was even worse for politicians and political parties IMO. These things come and go. I think the population will be more exercised if medication and the NHS care they receive noticeably gets worse because of a Hard Brexit.

    It is not the Tories I am concerned about. They can fall apart and I would shed no tears. It is basic faith in democracy that you will destroy. Why bother voting if they will just ignore you? That is the question that will be pushed at the public incessantly going forward. MPs expenses will be a walk in the park by comparison
    A large number of people who had given up voting because "it doesn't change anything" voted in the referendum.

    It astounds me that people can't see what will happen if they get proved right.
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325

    Theo said:


    Nope it is still illegitimate and will be regarded as such by a very large part of the population. The idea that this will just go away because you manage to stop Brexit this time (which is the only reason Remainers want a second referendum) is utter fantasy.

    Of course it will go away. The gammons will be FURIOUS. But they were furious before. And they'll be completely impotent from now on. ALL we have to do to fix this omnishambles is stitch up the Brexiteers, and let them know we're doing it. Let them know how totally, utterly and inescapably BEATEN they've been. Humiliated, beyond recovery, impotent beyond redemption.

    No UK government will ever contemplate leaving again having witnessed the shitshow it will unleash, and even if it did, the ECJ would be able to veto it.

    The problem will have gone away.

    If the worst impact the UK has to suffer from this omnishambles is gammons huffing ineffectually below the line on Mail Online stories, I think we can all pat ourselves on the back for a job well done.
    This post just shows what a sad, pathetic individual you are, motivated by hatred and racism. What drives a person to be like this? A lack of a loving mother in childhood? Social ostracisation in your teens? Whichever it is, you have my pity.
    Look, I understand losing is hard. But don't struggle. It will only hurt more. It will all be over soon.
    At the end of the day, while I want what is best for a democratic Britain, my life will be fine. I have a loving wife and children, a good circle of friends and a lucrative career. You, on the other hand, will always be a loser.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Clearly the country is incredibly divided over Brexit. The only route forward can be one that addresses some of the concerns of both sides. That means repatriating some laws and immigration limits for Leavers and economic access and good relationships with our neighbours for Remainers.

    Those who don't want any compromise at all with the other side are people that will tear this country apart.

    May I suggest a better compromise: EU membership for Remainers, and humiliation of the political class for Leavers.

    A second referendum would deliver both.
    Between you and the racist grabcocque, we have on display the true mindset of Remainers. An attitude of no compromising contempt and hatred. Whether it takes on vote or two, let us see whether MPs embrace such a nasty view of the world.
    I don't actually hate you. It's a waste of a fine emotion. It's not even anything personal, it's just that your side screwed up so big, so hard and so much. You were so incompetent, so stupid, so all-encompassingly omnishambolic, that you have to be utterly neutralised to ensure your utter, profound, titanic levels of ineptitude never harm the country again.

    But don't take it personally. I don't hate you. I don't see the point tbh.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Clearly the country is incredibly divided over Brexit. The only route forward can be one that addresses some of the concerns of both sides. That means repatriating some laws and immigration limits for Leavers and economic access and good relationships with our neighbours for Remainers.

    Those who don't want any compromise at all with the other side are people that will tear this country apart.

    May I suggest a better compromise: EU membership for Remainers, and humiliation of the political class for Leavers.

    A second referendum would deliver both.
    Between you and the racist grabcocque, we have on display the true mindset of Remainers. An attitude of no compromising contempt and hatred. Whether it takes on vote or two, let us see whether MPs embrace such a nasty view of the world.
    I don't actually hate you. It's a waste of a fine emotion. It's not even anything personal, it's just that your side screwed up so big, so hard and so much. You were so incompetent, so stupid, so all-encompassingly omnishambolic, that you have to be utterly neutralised to ensure your utter, profound, titanic levels of ineptitude never harm the country again.

    But don't take it personally. I don't hate you. I don't see the point tbh.
    You and Tyndall deserve each other.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Theo said:

    Theo said:


    Nope it is still illegitimate and will be regarded as such by a very large part of the population. The idea that this will just go away because you manage to stop Brexit this time (which is the only reason Remainers want a second referendum) is utter fantasy.

    Of course it will go away. The gammons will be FURIOUS. But they were furious before. And they'll be completely impotent from now on. ALL we have to do to fix this omnishambles is stitch up the Brexiteers, and let them know we're doing it. Let them know how totally, utterly and inescapably BEATEN they've been. Humiliated, beyond recovery, impotent beyond redemption.

    No UK government will ever contemplate leaving again having witnessed the shitshow it will unleash, and even if it did, the ECJ would be able to veto it.

    The problem will have gone away.

    If the worst impact the UK has to suffer from this omnishambles is gammons huffing ineffectually below the line on Mail Online stories, I think we can all pat ourselves on the back for a job well done.
    This post just shows what a sad, pathetic individual you are, motivated by hatred and racism. What drives a person to be like this? A lack of a loving mother in childhood? Social ostracisation in your teens? Whichever it is, you have my pity.
    Look, I understand losing is hard. But don't struggle. It will only hurt more. It will all be over soon.
    At the end of the day, while I want what is best for a democratic Britain, my life will be fine. I have a loving wife and children, a good circle of friends and a lucrative career. You, on the other hand, will always be a loser.
    This is good, go back to your loving wife and lucrative career. Live out your happy existence, safe in the knowledge you will never be allowed to screw up the nation again.
  • Donny43Donny43 Posts: 634

    Theo said:


    Nope it is still illegitimate and will be regarded as such by a very large part of the population. The idea that this will just go away because you manage to stop Brexit this time (which is the only reason Remainers want a second referendum) is utter fantasy.

    Of course it will go away. The gammons will be FURIOUS. But they were furious before. And they'll be completely impotent from now on. ALL we have to do to fix this omnishambles is stitch up the Brexiteers, and let them know we're doing it. Let them know how totally, utterly and inescapably BEATEN they've been. Humiliated, beyond recovery, impotent beyond redemption.

    No UK government will ever contemplate leaving again having witnessed the shitshow it will unleash, and even if it did, the ECJ would be able to veto it.

    The problem will have gone away.

    If the worst impact the UK has to suffer from this omnishambles is gammons huffing ineffectually below the line on Mail Online stories, I think we can all pat ourselves on the back for a job well done.
    This post just shows what a sad, pathetic individual you are, motivated by hatred and racism. What drives a person to be like this? A lack of a loving mother in childhood? Social ostracisation in your teens? Whichever it is, you have my pity.
    Look, I understand losing is hard. But don't struggle. It will only hurt more. It will all be over soon.
    It will. For Remainers. Unless they start being honest about what being in the EU really means.

    Go on. Call a referendum on joining the euro and Schengen vs leaving with no deal.
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325
    Donny43 said:



    The Tories are going to take a short-term hit whatever happens. MP expenses was even worse for politicians and political parties IMO. These things come and go. I think the population will be more exercised if medication and the NHS care they receive noticeably gets worse because of a Hard Brexit.

    It is not the Tories I am concerned about. They can fall apart and I would shed no tears. It is basic faith in democracy that you will destroy. Why bother voting if they will just ignore you? That is the question that will be pushed at the public incessantly going forward. MPs expenses will be a walk in the park by comparison
    A large number of people who had given up voting because "it doesn't change anything" voted in the referendum.

    It astounds me that people can't see what will happen if they get proved right.
    They don't care. As we have seen on today's thread, they don't care about democracy or bringing the country together. They are motivated by hatred of those who disagree with them.
  • Fenman said:

    kle4 said:

    Fenman said:

    IanB2 said:

    If Westminster decides to can Brexit, it is going to be a glorious time subseuently to be a Brexiteer, as EVERYTHING that goes wrong in the UK gets blamed on the Remainers.

    It will be great sport, hounding each and every one of them from office....

    I don't think people are going to forget the fiasco of recent months as quickly as that. The Brexit hardnuts aren't going to be getting a hearing any time soon.
    The Brexit voters will die off. Or go back to abstaining, racing whippets or pidgeons and indulging in their usual hobbies of racism and homophobia while we remainers will be working hard to pay their benefits and pensions.
    You have learned so much from the problems they led to a leave vote in the first place, thank goodness you are not being complacent about there still being issues. It's not like politics is complicated in anyway, the bad guys die off and it is just that easy.
    Politics is complicated, which is why it is best to leave it to professionals and experts and not hold silly referenda The problems we are facing include housing and inequality of opportunity These will not be solved by pandering to pensioners.
    They are not going to be solved by pandering to kids either.
    TBH, if we'd let kids negotiate the withdrawal deal rather than Brexiteers, we'd probably be somewhat better off.

    At least children are mostly aware they have no idea what they're doing, unlike May and her merry band of Brexitwunts.
    Brexiteers didn’t negotiate May’s deal; May and Robbins did that. Kids with no experience of anything but holding their hand out for their pocket money and whinging about how tough life is predominately voted Remain because they can’t be bothered to fill in a few forms to work overseas. Not the ideal qualifications.
  • Donny43Donny43 Posts: 634

    Fenman said:

    kle4 said:

    Fenman said:

    IanB2 said:

    If Westminster decides to can Brexit, it is going to be a glorious time subseuently to be a Brexiteer, as EVERYTHING that goes wrong in the UK gets blamed on the Remainers.

    It will be great sport, hounding each and every one of them from office....

    I don't think people are going to forget the fiasco of recent months as quickly as that. The Brexit hardnuts aren't going to be getting a hearing any time soon.
    The Brexit voters will die off. Or go back to abstaining, racing whippets or pidgeons and indulging in their usual hobbies of racism and homophobia while we remainers will be working hard to pay their benefits and pensions.
    You have learned so much from the problems they led to a leave vote in the first place, thank goodness you are not being complacent about there still being issues. It's not like politics is complicated in anyway, the bad guys die off and it is just that easy.
    Politics is complicated, which is why it is best to leave it to professionals and experts and not hold silly referenda The problems we are facing include housing and inequality of opportunity These will not be solved by pandering to pensioners.
    They are not going to be solved by pandering to kids either.
    TBH, if we'd let kids negotiate the withdrawal deal rather than Brexiteers, we'd probably be somewhat better off.

    At least children are mostly aware they have no idea what they're doing, unlike May and her merry band of Brexitwunts.
    If we'd had people who voted Leave in charge rather than May and Robbins, we'd be no worse off.
  • Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Clearly the country is incredibly divided over Brexit. The only route forward can be one that addresses some of the concerns of both sides. That means repatriating some laws and immigration limits for Leavers and economic access and good relationships with our neighbours for Remainers.

    Those who don't want any compromise at all with the other side are people that will tear this country apart.

    May I suggest a better compromise: EU membership for Remainers, and humiliation of the political class for Leavers.

    A second referendum would deliver both.
    Between you and the racist grabcocque, we have on display the true mindset of Remainers. An attitude of no compromising contempt and hatred. Whether it takes on vote or two, let us see whether MPs embrace such a nasty view of the world.
    I don't actually hate you. It's a waste of a fine emotion. It's not even anything personal, it's just that your side screwed up so big, so hard and so much. You were so incompetent, so stupid, so all-encompassingly omnishambolic, that you have to be utterly neutralised to ensure your utter, profound, titanic levels of ineptitude never harm the country again.

    But don't take it personally. I don't hate you. I don't see the point tbh.
    Your post are becoming increasingly pompous and absurd which is a great shame because when you are discussing your views in a professional manner you have much to contribute
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325

    Theo said:

    Theo said:


    Nope it is still illegitimate and will be regarded as such by a very large part of the population. The idea that this will just go away because you manage to stop Brexit this time (which is the only reason Remainers want a second referendum) is utter fantasy.

    Of course it will go away. The gammons will be FURIOUS. But they were furious before. And they'll be completely impotent from now on. ALL we have to do to fix this omnishambles is stitch up the Brexiteers, and let them know we're doing it. Let them know how totally, utterly and inescapably BEATEN they've been. Humiliated, beyond recovery, impotent beyond redemption.

    No UK government will ever contemplate leaving again having witnessed the shitshow it will unleash, and even if it did, the ECJ would be able to veto it.

    The problem will have gone away.

    If the worst impact the UK has to suffer from this omnishambles is gammons huffing ineffectually below the line on Mail Online stories, I think we can all pat ourselves on the back for a job well done.
    This post just shows what a sad, pathetic individual you are, motivated by hatred and racism. What drives a person to be like this? A lack of a loving mother in childhood? Social ostracisation in your teens? Whichever it is, you have my pity.
    Look, I understand losing is hard. But don't struggle. It will only hurt more. It will all be over soon.
    At the end of the day, while I want what is best for a democratic Britain, my life will be fine. I have a loving wife and children, a good circle of friends and a lucrative career. You, on the other hand, will always be a loser.
    This is good, go back to your loving wife and lucrative career. Live out your happy existence, safe in the knowledge you will never be allowed to screw up the nation again.
    I'm afraid I will continue to fight against government by nasty racist bigots like yourself.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Donny43 said:


    It will. For Remainers. Unless they start being honest about what being in the EU really means.

    Go on. Call a referendum on joining the euro and Schengen vs leaving with no deal.

    As if the UK will ever be allowed another referendum. Another great side effect of the Brexiteers ballsing up brexit on such a galactic scale is that Parliament will never be gulled by those dolts into giving them another referendum, ever again.
  • Donny43Donny43 Posts: 634



    The Tories are going to take a short-term hit whatever happens. MP expenses was even worse for politicians and political parties IMO. These things come and go. I think the population will be more exercised if medication and the NHS care they receive noticeably gets worse because of a Hard Brexit.

    It is not the Tories I am concerned about. They can fall apart and I would shed no tears. It is basic faith in democracy that you will destroy. Why bother voting if they will just ignore you? That is the question that will be pushed at the public incessantly going forward. MPs expenses will be a walk in the park by comparison
    I don't think you have ever canvassed opinion for a political party. Believe me MP expenses was far far worse!
    Only because it hasn't seeped through to the average voter that MPs really are trying to overturn the result.
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325

    Donny43 said:


    It will. For Remainers. Unless they start being honest about what being in the EU really means.

    Go on. Call a referendum on joining the euro and Schengen vs leaving with no deal.

    As if the UK will ever be allowed another referendum. Another great side effect of the Brexiteers ballsing up brexit on such a galactic scale is that Parliament will never be gulled by those dolts into giving them another referendum, ever again.
    Because you don't believe in democracy. You want government by an oligarchy that agrees with you. You are an enemy of freedom and decency.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    edited December 2018
    https://twitter.com/patrickwintour/status/1071114914125803520

    If accurate, does not sound like report of a man getting ready to sing the praises of Remain, or attempt to re-run the referendum, or with any love for the EU in general.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,719
    edited December 2018

    In case you're wondering how May's tour of the UK to sell the deal is going, Ipsos Mori have some numbers.

    image

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/six-ten-think-withdrawal-deal-would-be-bad-uk-public-cant-agree-what-should-happen-next

    That Mori poll reveals nothing other than the public completely split.

    They may not love the Deal but only 20% back No Deal, only 20% want EUref2 on Leave v Remain, 19% want to ask the EU for a better Deal, 11% want to cancel Brexit, 10% want a general election, 10% a referendum on the Deal alone and 6% two Commons votes on the Deal.

    Yougov was far better as was Datapoll as they forced voters to choose head to head between the only options available, Deal, No Deal or Remain and on that basis the Deal did much better
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Theo said:

    Donny43 said:



    The Tories are going to take a short-term hit whatever happens. MP expenses was even worse for politicians and political parties IMO. These things come and go. I think the population will be more exercised if medication and the NHS care they receive noticeably gets worse because of a Hard Brexit.

    It is not the Tories I am concerned about. They can fall apart and I would shed no tears. It is basic faith in democracy that you will destroy. Why bother voting if they will just ignore you? That is the question that will be pushed at the public incessantly going forward. MPs expenses will be a walk in the park by comparison
    A large number of people who had given up voting because "it doesn't change anything" voted in the referendum.

    It astounds me that people can't see what will happen if they get proved right.
    They don't care. As we have seen on today's thread, they don't care about democracy or bringing the country together. They are motivated by hatred of those who disagree with them.
    I do care. I care very much about the average increase in intelligence of the average voter that a gammon strike would precipitate. It'd be almost noble, if they had any idea what the concept means.

    Gammons have clearly demonstrated they do not possess the wisdom or judgment to wield the sacred duty of voting carefully and wisely. When they choose not to vote in future, they should be thanked for that small amount of self-awareness.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Donny43 said:



    The Tories are going to take a short-term hit whatever happens. MP expenses was even worse for politicians and political parties IMO. These things come and go. I think the population will be more exercised if medication and the NHS care they receive noticeably gets worse because of a Hard Brexit.

    It is not the Tories I am concerned about. They can fall apart and I would shed no tears. It is basic faith in democracy that you will destroy. Why bother voting if they will just ignore you? That is the question that will be pushed at the public incessantly going forward. MPs expenses will be a walk in the park by comparison
    A large number of people who had given up voting because "it doesn't change anything" voted in the referendum.

    It astounds me that people can't see what will happen if they get proved right.
    A large number of people gave up voting because of MPs expenses. These things happen. Until the next issue!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    Donny43 said:



    The Tories are going to take a short-term hit whatever happens. MP expenses was even worse for politicians and political parties IMO. These things come and go. I think the population will be more exercised if medication and the NHS care they receive noticeably gets worse because of a Hard Brexit.

    It is not the Tories I am concerned about. They can fall apart and I would shed no tears. It is basic faith in democracy that you will destroy. Why bother voting if they will just ignore you? That is the question that will be pushed at the public incessantly going forward. MPs expenses will be a walk in the park by comparison
    A large number of people who had given up voting because "it doesn't change anything" voted in the referendum.

    It astounds me that people can't see what will happen if they get proved right.
    Ultimately this whole shambles is essentially a failure of Parliament. It has persistently abrogated its own responsibility by laying blame for unpopular decisions on Europe, it has refused to listen to reasonable concerns about the EU project, and it is now squabbling over which unavailable option they would prefer with all the fervour of two eunuchs trying to hide their shortcomings fighting over a packet of condoms.

    There is, sadly, no block prepared to accept that with Remain not an option and No Deal the default, it is necessary to accept what the EU have given us even if it isn't what they personally would have wanted.

    The only cold comfort on offer is that there is no political system on earth functioning noticeably better at the moment.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    edited December 2018

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Clearly the country is incredibly divided over Brexit. The only route forward can be one that addresses some of the concerns of both sides. That means repatriating some laws and immigration limits for Leavers and economic access and good relationships with our neighbours for Remainers.

    Those who don't want any compromise at all with the other side are people that will tear this country apart.

    May I suggest a better compromise: EU membership for Remainers, and humiliation of the political class for Leavers.

    A second referendum would deliver both.
    Between you and the racist grabcocque, we have on display the true mindset of Remainers. An attitude of no compromising contempt and hatred. Whether it takes on vote or two, let us see whether MPs embrace such a nasty view of the world.
    I don't actually hate you. It's a waste of a fine emotion. It's not even anything personal, it's just that your side screwed up so big, so hard and so much. You were so incompetent, so stupid, so all-encompassingly omnishambolic, that you have to be utterly neutralised to ensure your utter, profound, titanic levels of ineptitude never harm the country again.

    But don't take it personally. I don't hate you. I don't see the point tbh.
    Your post are becoming increasingly pompous and absurd which is a great shame because when you are discussing your views in a professional manner you have much to contribute
    Really?

    If I'm honest I always thought the only really interesting and aposite part of the poster in question was his name, which so perfectly sums up his character.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    HYUFD said:

    In case you're wondering how May's tour of the UK to sell the deal is going, Ipsos Mori have some numbers.

    image

    https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/six-ten-think-withdrawal-deal-would-be-bad-uk-public-cant-agree-what-should-happen-next

    That Mori poll reveals nothing other than the public completely split.
    It proves that 62% of people correctly realise that May's deal is terrible for the country, which is yet more evidence that maybe the electorate aren't yet completely beyond redemption.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074
    A foretaste of what is likely to happen to Britain’s financial sector, should we leave.

    A very interesting article, thank you @Dura_Ace.

    Given the activities of Russia, China and the US sharing defence with the rest of Europe seems to me to make sense.
  • mattmatt Posts: 3,789
    edited December 2018

    Theo said:

    Theo said:


    Nope it is still illegitimate and will be regarded as such by a very large part of the population. The idea that this will just go away because you manage to stop Brexit this time (which is the only reason Remainers want a second referendum) is utter fantasy.

    Of course it will go away. The gammons will be FURIOUS. But they were furious before. And they'll be completely impotent from now on. ALL we have to do to fix this omnishambles is stitch up the Brexiteers, and let them know we're doing it. Let them know how totally, utterly and inescapably BEATEN they've been. Humiliated, beyond recovery, impotent beyond redemption.

    No UK government will ever contemplate leaving again having witnessed the shitshow it will unleash, and even if it did, the ECJ would be able to veto it.

    The problem will have gone away.

    If the worst impact the UK has to suffer from this omnishambles is gammons huffing ineffectually below the line on Mail Online stories, I think we can all pat ourselves on the back for a job well done.
    This post just shows what a sad, pathetic individual you are, motivated by hatred and racism. What drives a person to be like this? A lack of a loving mother in childhood? Social ostracisation in your teens? Whichever it is, you have my pity.
    Look, I understand losing is hard. But don't struggle. It will only hurt more. It will all be over soon.
    At the end of the day, while I want what is best for a democratic Britain, my life will be fine. I have a loving wife and children, a good circle of friends and a lucrative career. You, on the other hand, will always be a loser.
    This is good, go back to your loving wife and lucrative career. Live out your happy existence, safe in the knowledge you will never be allowed to screw up the nation again.
    All the the evidence in your posts suggests you’ve never screwed anything.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Look, let's give the gammons a referendum on blue passports. Something to keep them occupied.

    The sort of thing the gammons really care about, and is within their intellectual range to actually understand.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Donny43 said:



    The Tories are going to take a short-term hit whatever happens. MP expenses was even worse for politicians and political parties IMO. These things come and go. I think the population will be more exercised if medication and the NHS care they receive noticeably gets worse because of a Hard Brexit.

    It is not the Tories I am concerned about. They can fall apart and I would shed no tears. It is basic faith in democracy that you will destroy. Why bother voting if they will just ignore you? That is the question that will be pushed at the public incessantly going forward. MPs expenses will be a walk in the park by comparison
    I don't think you have ever canvassed opinion for a political party. Believe me MP expenses was far far worse!
    Only because it hasn't seeped through to the average voter that MPs really are trying to overturn the result.
    If MPs were to go through with a NO Deal Brexit they would know about it!

    Brexit is intangible to most peoples lives at the moment. If it does not happen - it will cause no disruption to peoples lives. Things will move on, a hardcore of Brexiteers will always exist as will EU proponents.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    ydoethur said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Clearly the country is incredibly divided over Brexit. The only route forward can be one that addresses some of the concerns of both sides. That means repatriating some laws and immigration limits for Leavers and economic access and good relationships with our neighbours for Remainers.

    Those who don't want any compromise at all with the other side are people that will tear this country apart.

    May I suggest a better compromise: EU membership for Remainers, and humiliation of the political class for Leavers.

    A second referendum would deliver both.
    Between you and the racist grabcocque, we have on display the true mindset of Remainers. An attitude of no compromising contempt and hatred. Whether it takes on vote or two, let us see whether MPs embrace such a nasty view of the world.
    I don't actually hate you. It's a waste of a fine emotion. It's not even anything personal, it's just that your side screwed up so big, so hard and so much. You were so incompetent, so stupid, so all-encompassingly omnishambolic, that you have to be utterly neutralised to ensure your utter, profound, titanic levels of ineptitude never harm the country again.

    But don't take it personally. I don't hate you. I don't see the point tbh.
    Your post are becoming increasingly pompous and absurd which is a great shame because when you are discussing your views in a professional manner you have much to contribute
    Really?

    If I'm honest I always thought the only really interesting and aposite part of the poster in question was his name, which so perfectly sums up his character.
    You see? That's a new insult. I knew you had it in you!

    Keep it up.
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325

    Theo said:

    Donny43 said:



    The Tories are going to take a short-term hit whatever happens. MP expenses was even worse for politicians and political parties IMO. These things come and go. I think the population will be more exercised if medication and the NHS care they receive noticeably gets worse because of a Hard Brexit.

    It is not the Tories I am concerned about. They can fall apart and I would shed no tears. It is basic faith in democracy that you will destroy. Why bother voting if they will just ignore you? That is the question that will be pushed at the public incessantly going forward. MPs expenses will be a walk in the park by comparison
    A large number of people who had given up voting because "it doesn't change anything" voted in the referendum.

    It astounds me that people can't see what will happen if they get proved right.
    They don't care. As we have seen on today's thread, they don't care about democracy or bringing the country together. They are motivated by hatred of those who disagree with them.
    I do care. I care very much about the average increase in intelligence of the average voter that a gammon strike would precipitate. It'd be almost noble, if they had any idea what the concept means.

    Gammons have clearly demonstrated they do not possess the wisdom or judgment to wield the sacred duty of voting carefully and wisely. When they choose not to vote in future, they should be thanked for that small amount of self-awareness.
    An illiberal bigot on clear display.

    And an overconfident one too, if you would only pay attention to Corbyn's speech right now.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    I do not there will be a second referendum. It is simpler just to cancel Brexit assuming the CJEU lets us.

    There will be an outcry no matter what happens.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Donny43 said:



    The Tories are going to take a short-term hit whatever happens. MP expenses was even worse for politicians and political parties IMO. These things come and go. I think the population will be more exercised if medication and the NHS care they receive noticeably gets worse because of a Hard Brexit.

    It is not the Tories I am concerned about. They can fall apart and I would shed no tears. It is basic faith in democracy that you will destroy. Why bother voting if they will just ignore you? That is the question that will be pushed at the public incessantly going forward. MPs expenses will be a walk in the park by comparison
    A large number of people who had given up voting because "it doesn't change anything" voted in the referendum.

    It astounds me that people can't see what will happen if they get proved right.
    They don't care. As we have seen on today's thread, they don't care about democracy or bringing the country together. They are motivated by hatred of those who disagree with them.
    I do care. I care very much about the average increase in intelligence of the average voter that a gammon strike would precipitate. It'd be almost noble, if they had any idea what the concept means.

    Gammons have clearly demonstrated they do not possess the wisdom or judgment to wield the sacred duty of voting carefully and wisely. When they choose not to vote in future, they should be thanked for that small amount of self-awareness.
    An illiberal bigot on clear display.

    And an overconfident one too, if you would only pay attention to Corbyn's speech right now.
    You know what the say, Theo. It's the hope that kills you.

    We're staying in the EU, you blew it. You and your gammon chums blew it. Sorry about that.
  • TheoTheo Posts: 325
    matt said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:


    Nope it is still illegitimate and will be regarded as such by a very large part of the population. The idea that this will just go away because you manage to stop Brexit this time (which is the only reason Remainers want a second referendum) is utter fantasy.

    Of course it will go away. The gammons will be FURIOUS. But they were furious before. And they'll be completely impotent from now on. ALL we have to do to fix this omnishambles is stitch up the Brexiteers, and let them know we're doing it. Let them know how totally, utterly and inescapably BEATEN they've been. Humiliated, beyond recovery, impotent beyond redemption.

    No UK government will ever contemplate leaving again having witnessed the shitshow it will unleash, and even if it did, the ECJ would be able to veto it.

    The problem will have gone away.

    If the worst impact the UK has to suffer from this omnishambles is gammons huffing ineffectually below the line on Mail Online stories, I think we can all pat ourselves on the back for a job well done.
    This post just shows what a sad, pathetic individual you are, motivated by hatred and racism. What drives a person to be like this? A lack of a loving mother in childhood? Social ostracisation in your teens? Whichever it is, you have my pity.
    Look, I understand losing is hard. But don't struggle. It will only hurt more. It will all be over soon.
    At the end of the day, while I want what is best for a democratic Britain, my life will be fine. I have a loving wife and children, a good circle of friends and a lucrative career. You, on the other hand, will always be a loser.
    This is good, go back to your loving wife and lucrative career. Live out your happy existence, safe in the knowledge you will never be allowed to screw up the nation again.
    All the the evidence in your posts suggests you’ve never screwed anything.
    Judging by his username and his personality, his right hand would likely disagree with you.
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905
    ydoethur said:

    Donny43 said:



    The Tories are going to take a short-term hit whatever happens. MP expenses was even worse for politicians and political parties IMO. These things come and go. I think the population will be more exercised if medication and the NHS care they receive noticeably gets worse because of a Hard Brexit.

    It is not the Tories I am concerned about. They can fall apart and I would shed no tears. It is basic faith in democracy that you will destroy. Why bother voting if they will just ignore you? That is the question that will be pushed at the public incessantly going forward. MPs expenses will be a walk in the park by comparison
    A large number of people who had given up voting because "it doesn't change anything" voted in the referendum.

    It astounds me that people can't see what will happen if they get proved right.
    Ultimately this whole shambles is essentially a failure of Parliament. It has persistently abrogated its own responsibility by laying blame for unpopular decisions on Europe, it has refused to listen to reasonable concerns about the EU project, and it is now squabbling over which unavailable option they would prefer with all the fervour of two eunuchs trying to hide their shortcomings fighting over a packet of condoms.

    There is, sadly, no block prepared to accept that with Remain not an option and No Deal the default, it is necessary to accept what the EU have given us even if it isn't what they personally would have wanted.

    The only cold comfort on offer is that there is no political system on earth functioning noticeably better at the moment.
    The Deal is also not an option. If by some miracle May got it to pass then the DUP would withdraw support and the Government would fall the following day. A General Election then follows, which in all likelihood would produce a Parliament almost identical to the current one. That's what the evidence of the previous election, and of the current state of public opinion, and of the opinion polls all suggests.

    And all the while, tick tock tick tock, and Leave is still the law.
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234

    I do not there will be a second referendum. It is simpler just to cancel Brexit assuming the CJEU lets us.

    There will be an outcry no matter what happens.

    Not from anyone that matters or we care about though, so that's fine.
  • I do not there will be a second referendum. It is simpler just to cancel Brexit assuming the CJEU lets us.

    There will be an outcry no matter what happens.

    The political class will not dare to cancel Brexit without the covering excuse of a referendum.
  • Cyclefree said:

    A foretaste of what is likely to happen to Britain’s financial sector, should we leave.

    A very interesting article, thank you @Dura_Ace.

    Given the activities of Russia, China and the US sharing defence with the rest of Europe seems to me to make sense.
    Should we leave?

    Haven't we already voted on whether we should leave?
  • grabcocquegrabcocque Posts: 4,234
    Slightly offtopic, but it's interesting that PB's gammon contingent do seem to prefer sexual-based insults. I wonder what that means? Hmmmmm.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    edited December 2018
    Cyclefree said:

    A foretaste of what is likely to happen to Britain’s financial sector, should we leave.

    A very interesting article, thank you @Dura_Ace.

    Given the activities of Russia, China and the US sharing defence with the rest of Europe seems to me to make sense.
    The problem with Europe all along is that a case can be made for it. That goes for everything up to full federalism. A major world power, commanding one of the world's most significant and prosperous continents, offering a stable polity and a balanced economy, could be a really good thing. Think how much more careful Russia would be in the Ukraine, for a start.

    There are two small problems:

    1) The people of Europe mostly don't want it, as they have made clear at every turn;

    2) As a result there are a number of politicians who have tried to impose it incrementally and by stealth, leaving us with a bunch of third rate nobodies in charge who we can't call mafia-style crooks because the Mafia would justifiably protest.

    The European Defence Force falls the same way, I'm afraid. Logical and maybe even in some ways desirable, but not want people want.

    And if anyone thinks I am overegging my response, ask the major transnational powers of yesteryear - British Empire, Soviet Union and Holy Roman Empire spring to mind.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Slightly offtopic, but it's interesting that PB's gammon contingent do seem to prefer sexual-based insults. I wonder what that means? Hmmmmm.

    You are SeanT and I claim my €5
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    I do not there will be a second referendum. It is simpler just to cancel Brexit assuming the CJEU lets us.

    There will be an outcry no matter what happens.

    The political class will not dare to cancel Brexit without the covering excuse of a referendum.
    I think they would dare. Look at Adonis. He is a technocrat. He has never stood for election, never had to defend his policies and certainly never had to speak to a voter. He is in power becuase of his mighty brain (just bear with me!) not democracy. Why should he worry about what such people think?

    I just think it would end badly for everyone.
  • Donny43Donny43 Posts: 634

    Theo said:

    Donny43 said:



    The Tories are going to take a short-term hit whatever happens. MP expenses was even worse for politicians and political parties IMO. These things come and go. I think the population will be more exercised if medication and the NHS care they receive noticeably gets worse because of a Hard Brexit.

    It is not the Tories I am concerned about. They can fall apart and I would shed no tears. It is basic faith in democracy that you will destroy. Why bother voting if they will just ignore you? That is the question that will be pushed at the public incessantly going forward. MPs expenses will be a walk in the park by comparison
    A large number of people who had given up voting because "it doesn't change anything" voted in the referendum.

    It astounds me that people can't see what will happen if they get proved right.
    They don't care. As we have seen on today's thread, they don't care about democracy or bringing the country together. They are motivated by hatred of those who disagree with them.
    I do care. I care very much about the average increase in intelligence of the average voter that a gammon strike would precipitate. It'd be almost noble, if they had any idea what the concept means.

    Gammons have clearly demonstrated they do not possess the wisdom or judgment to wield the sacred duty of voting carefully and wisely. When they choose not to vote in future, they should be thanked for that small amount of self-awareness.
    I think you need to go back to your day job working for the Democrats in the US. They too think the way to win friends and influence people who voted the wrong way is to dismiss them as stupid racists.
  • Theo said:

    Theo said:


    Nope it is still illegitimate and will be regarded as such by a very large part of the population. The idea that this will just go away because you manage to stop Brexit this time (which is the only reason Remainers want a second referendum) is utter fantasy.

    Of course it will go away. The gammons will be FURIOUS. But they were furious before. And they'll be completely impotent from now on. ALL we have to do to fix this omnishambles is stitch up the Brexiteers, and let them know we're doing it. Let them know how totally, utterly and inescapably BEATEN they've been. Humiliated, beyond recovery, impotent beyond redemption.

    No UK government will ever contemplate leaving again having witnessed the shitshow it will unleash, and even if it did, the ECJ would be able to veto it.

    The problem will have gone away.

    If the worst impact the UK has to suffer from this omnishambles is gammons huffing ineffectually below the line on Mail Online stories, I think we can all pat ourselves on the back for a job well done.
    This post just shows what a sad, pathetic individual you are, motivated by hatred and racism. What drives a person to be like this? A lack of a loving mother in childhood? Social ostracisation in your teens? Whichever it is, you have my pity.
    Look, I understand losing is hard. But don't struggle. It will only hurt more. It will all be over soon.
    At the end of the day, while I want what is best for a democratic Britain, my life will be fine. I have a loving wife and children, a good circle of friends and a lucrative career. You, on the other hand, will always be a loser.
    You're an anonymous bloke (I assume?) on the internet. Don't you thinks it's a teeny bit pitiful to be going on about your entirely hypothetical, lovely, non loser life?
  • ydoethur said:

    Theo said:

    Theo said:

    Clearly the country is incredibly divided over Brexit. The only route forward can be one that addresses some of the concerns of both sides. That means repatriating some laws and immigration limits for Leavers and economic access and good relationships with our neighbours for Remainers.

    Those who don't want any compromise at all with the other side are people that will tear this country apart.

    May I suggest a better compromise: EU membership for Remainers, and humiliation of the political class for Leavers.

    A second referendum would deliver both.
    Between you and the racist grabcocque, we have on display the true mindset of Remainers. An attitude of no compromising contempt and hatred. Whether it takes on vote or two, let us see whether MPs embrace such a nasty view of the world.
    I don't actually hate you. It's a waste of a fine emotion. It's not even anything personal, it's just that your side screwed up so big, so hard and so much. You were so incompetent, so stupid, so all-encompassingly omnishambolic, that you have to be utterly neutralised to ensure your utter, profound, titanic levels of ineptitude never harm the country again.

    But don't take it personally. I don't hate you. I don't see the point tbh.
    Your post are becoming increasingly pompous and absurd which is a great shame because when you are discussing your views in a professional manner you have much to contribute
    Really?

    If I'm honest I always thought the only really interesting and aposite part of the poster in question was his name, which so perfectly sums up his character.
    He does have some interesting opinions on procedures but recently his posts have descended into insulting and attacking other posters, that causes me great concern as we should all be able to argue our opinions in a robust manner but with respect. His repeated references to my age group and dying off is unnecessary

    He saddens me
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094

    Theo said:

    Theo said:


    Nope it is still illegitimate and will be regarded as such by a very large part of the population. The idea that this will just go away because you manage to stop Brexit this time (which is the only reason Remainers want a second referendum) is utter fantasy.

    Of course it will go away. The gammons will be FURIOUS. But they were furious before. And they'll be completely impotent from now on. ALL we have to do to fix this omnishambles is stitch up the Brexiteers, and let them know we're doing it. Let them know how totally, utterly and inescapably BEATEN they've been. Humiliated, beyond recovery, impotent beyond redemption.

    No UK government will ever contemplate leaving again having witnessed the shitshow it will unleash, and even if it did, the ECJ would be able to veto it.

    The problem will have gone away.

    If the worst impact the UK has to suffer from this omnishambles is gammons huffing ineffectually below the line on Mail Online stories, I think we can all pat ourselves on the back for a job well done.
    This post just shows what a sad, pathetic individual you are, motivated by hatred and racism. What drives a person to be like this? A lack of a loving mother in childhood? Social ostracisation in your teens? Whichever it is, you have my pity.
    Look, I understand losing is hard. But don't struggle. It will only hurt more. It will all be over soon.
    At the end of the day, while I want what is best for a democratic Britain, my life will be fine. I have a loving wife and children, a good circle of friends and a lucrative career. You, on the other hand, will always be a loser.
    You're an anonymous bloke (I assume?) on the internet. Don't you thinks it's a teeny bit pitiful to be going on about your entirely hypothetical, lovely, non loser life?
    Yes, where is SeanT nowadays?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    edited December 2018

    He does have some interesting opinions on procedures but recently his posts have descended into insulting and attacking other posters, that causes me great concern as we should all be able to argue our opinions in a robust manner but with respect. His repeated references to my age group and dying off is unnecessary

    He saddens me

    Did he?

    I always found his posts rather childish and lacking in intelligence (as well as having a crass username) so I tend to just ignore him. The infantile way he behaved when I did directly engage with him the other night didn't exactly suggest I was making a misjudgement.

    I mean, there are some odd posters on here. There's SeanT who's never knowingly posted sober. Or Dura Ace with his obsession with Yorkshire Terriers (of which the less said the better). Or Hyufd and his inability to ever admit a mistake. However, all of these can be interesting, or at least, entertaining. Even Hyufd can sometimes be insightful.

    But this one is something else. There really didn't seem to be anything redemptive about him at all.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited December 2018
    Huawei executive faces fraud charges over Iran, court hears

    Meng Wanzhou, chief financial officer of Chinese telecoms giant Huawei, is facing fraud charges relating to alleged breaking of US sanctions on Iran, a Canadian court has heard.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-46490053

    This is going to get tasty. China are not going to let this happen to one of their own without payback.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,094
    Don't feed the troll....
  • FloaterFloater Posts: 14,195

    I do not there will be a second referendum. It is simpler just to cancel Brexit assuming the CJEU lets us.

    There will be an outcry no matter what happens.

    Who cares about democracy eh?

  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979

    I do not there will be a second referendum. It is simpler just to cancel Brexit assuming the CJEU lets us.

    There will be an outcry no matter what happens.

    The political class will not dare to cancel Brexit without the covering excuse of a referendum.
    I am not so sure.

    1/ If the first referendum was tainted by Russian money for Leave and its affiliated network of organisations and individuals, given the extreme implications for the UK, would HM Government really pursue policies a hostile power had manipulated in their interests? A second vote could be ripe for Russian exploitation again as a Brexit supporter today on BBC 2 said they still have the campaign infrastructure in place and the personnel.

    2/ If credible, Independent political scientists will testify under oath to quantifiably assert that malevolent forces had stolen the referendum by subverting the rules through tainted money. Then again, a re-run is ill advised and MPs should take the hit and decide that being in the EU is least bad option.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    https://twitter.com/patrickwintour/status/1071114914125803520

    If accurate, does not sound like report of a man getting ready to sing the praises of Remain, or attempt to re-run the referendum, or with any love for the EU in general.

    It's just part of Labour's strategy - Corbyn talks up the need to respect the result but renegotiate while others play up the need for a referendum, while Starmer maneuvers the party into a position it can support remain from. Whether the party formally backs remain in a referendum or is officially neutral, they can all point to Corbyn's words as showing they wanted to leave but the Tories made it impossible through their ineptitude, while remainers get their opportunity to not leave at all and can look past that Corbyn himself did not seem keen on the prospect.

    Worst case scenario Corbyn really would prefer to leave, but even then he's in with a decent chance of being PM off the back of all this, so he can live with it. The very fact so many remainers back Labour when its official policy is to leave speaks to the fact Corbyn has not been as firm in that leave position as people think, as a leader he is more cautious than he used to be.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769

    Theo said:

    Theo said:


    Nope it is still illegitimate and will be regarded as such by a very large part of the population. The idea that this will just go away because you manage to stop Brexit this time (which is the only reason Remainers want a second referendum) is utter fantasy.

    Of course it will go away. The gammons will be FURIOUS. But they were furious before. And they'll be completely impotent from now on. ALL we have to do to fix this omnishambles is stitch up the Brexiteers, and let them know we're doing it. Let them know how totally, utterly and inescapably BEATEN they've been. Humiliated, beyond recovery, impotent beyond redemption.

    No UK government will ever contemplate leaving again having witnessed the shitshow it will unleash, and even if it did, the ECJ would be able to veto it.

    The problem will have gone away.

    If the worst impact the UK has to suffer from this omnishambles is gammons huffing ineffectually below the line on Mail Online stories, I think we can all pat ourselves on the back for a job well done.
    This post just shows what a sad, pathetic individual you are, motivated by hatred and racism. What drives a person to be like this? A lack of a loving mother in childhood? Social ostracisation in your teens? Whichever it is, you have my pity.
    Look, I understand losing is hard. But don't struggle. It will only hurt more. It will all be over soon.
    At the end of the day, while I want what is best for a democratic Britain, my life will be fine. I have a loving wife and children, a good circle of friends and a lucrative career. You, on the other hand, will always be a loser.
    You're an anonymous bloke (I assume?) on the internet. Don't you thinks it's a teeny bit pitiful to be going on about your entirely hypothetical, lovely, non loser life?
    We're all cweepy and pathetic and can't get girls. That's why we pway wobots!

    (And no Sunil, I do not intend to get into a nerdiness contest with you!)
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    I do not there will be a second referendum. It is simpler just to cancel Brexit assuming the CJEU lets us.

    There will be an outcry no matter what happens.

    The political class will not dare to cancel Brexit without the covering excuse of a referendum.
    Of course they would. Look at all the excuses....

    - Time is short
    - Last time it took 7 months
    - Nobody know what questions to use
    - Nobody know how to phrase the questions
    - Scheduling councils to count and get printing

    It also has the advantage that cancelling guarantees the "correct" answer. The public might pick the wrong one to "stick it to the politicians" as happened last time (there was then the spectacle of Voter Remorse and the second petition with 4m signatures wanting a re-run

    The politicians have all the cover they need.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    IanB2 said:

    Don't feed the troll....

    Feeding the troll rocks!

    *innocent face*
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    Would Norway veto a Norway + deal?

    Good point if I were Norway I'd want to switch to "plus".
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408

    Donny43 said:



    The Tories are going to take a short-term hit whatever happens. MP expenses was even worse for politicians and political parties IMO. These things come and go. I think the population will be more exercised if medication and the NHS care they receive noticeably gets worse because of a Hard Brexit.

    It is not the Tories I am concerned about. They can fall apart and I would shed no tears. It is basic faith in democracy that you will destroy. Why bother voting if they will just ignore you? That is the question that will be pushed at the public incessantly going forward. MPs expenses will be a walk in the park by comparison
    A large number of people who had given up voting because "it doesn't change anything" voted in the referendum.

    It astounds me that people can't see what will happen if they get proved right.
    A large number of people gave up voting because of MPs expenses.
    Turnout has increased 4 General Elections in a row, albeit marginally at times. If large numbers of people gave up voting because of MPs expenses then they were replaced and exceeded by others. (though still being below historic levels)
  • TOPPING said:

    Would Norway veto a Norway + deal?

    Good point if I were Norway I'd want to switch to "plus".
    Why? They could have had the + if they wanted it. They've rejected it time and again as it's really a -
  • ydoethur said:

    He does have some interesting opinions on procedures but recently his posts have descended into insulting and attacking other posters, that causes me great concern as we should all be able to argue our opinions in a robust manner but with respect. His repeated references to my age group and dying off is unnecessary

    He saddens me

    Did he?

    I always found his posts rather childish and lacking in intelligence (as well as having a crass username) so I tend to just ignore him. The infantile way he behaved when I did directly engage with him the other night didn't exactly suggest I was making a misjudgement.

    I mean, there are some odd posters on here. There's SeanT who's never knowingly posted sober. Or Dura Ace with his obsession with Yorkshire Terriers (of which the less said the better). Or Hyufd and his inability to ever admit a mistake. However, all of these can be interesting, or at least, entertaining. Even Hyufd can sometimes be insightful.

    But this one is something else. There really didn't seem to be anything redemptive about him at all.
    It is not for me to judge but all those posters in your paragraph do not compare to his recent spiral into unacceptable confrontation with some of our fellow posters
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,841
    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/patrickwintour/status/1071114914125803520

    If accurate, does not sound like report of a man getting ready to sing the praises of Remain, or attempt to re-run the referendum, or with any love for the EU in general.

    It's just part of Labour's strategy - Corbyn talks up the need to respect the result but renegotiate while others play up the need for a referendum, while Starmer maneuvers the party into a position it can support remain from. Whether the party formally backs remain in a referendum or is officially neutral, they can all point to Corbyn's words as showing they wanted to leave but the Tories made it impossible through their ineptitude, while remainers get their opportunity to not leave at all and can look past that Corbyn himself did not seem keen on the prospect.

    Worst case scenario Corbyn really would prefer to leave, but even then he's in with a decent chance of being PM off the back of all this, so he can live with it. The very fact so many remainers back Labour when its official policy is to leave speaks to the fact Corbyn has not been as firm in that leave position as people think, as a leader he is more cautious than he used to be.
    Indeed. People do insist he's thick though.
  • I do not there will be a second referendum. It is simpler just to cancel Brexit assuming the CJEU lets us.

    There will be an outcry no matter what happens.

    The political class will not dare to cancel Brexit without the covering excuse of a referendum.
    Of course they would. Look at all the excuses....

    - Time is short
    - Last time it took 7 months
    - Nobody know what questions to use
    - Nobody know how to phrase the questions
    - Scheduling councils to count and get printing

    It also has the advantage that cancelling guarantees the "correct" answer. The public might pick the wrong one to "stick it to the politicians" as happened last time (there was then the spectacle of Voter Remorse and the second petition with 4m signatures wanting a re-run

    The politicians have all the cover they need.
    There was no evidence of voter remorse. Sore losers signing a petition is meaningless.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Floater said:

    I do not there will be a second referendum. It is simpler just to cancel Brexit assuming the CJEU lets us.

    There will be an outcry no matter what happens.

    Who cares about democracy eh?

    To a certain extent, we lack the luxury of a democratic decision. Time is short and getting shorter. If was going to be done properly (democracy etc) then they should have addressed this 6 months ago when it was as obvious that Brexit was a slow-motion car crash and we had the luxury of time.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,769
    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/patrickwintour/status/1071114914125803520

    If accurate, does not sound like report of a man getting ready to sing the praises of Remain, or attempt to re-run the referendum, or with any love for the EU in general.

    It's just part of Labour's strategy - Corbyn talks up the need to respect the result but renegotiate while others play up the need for a referendum, while Starmer maneuvers the party into a position it can support remain from. Whether the party formally backs remain in a referendum or is officially neutral, they can all point to Corbyn's words as showing they wanted to leave but the Tories made it impossible through their ineptitude, while remainers get their opportunity to not leave at all and can look past that Corbyn himself did not seem keen on the prospect.

    Worst case scenario Corbyn really would prefer to leave, but even then he's in with a decent chance of being PM off the back of all this, so he can live with it. The very fact so many remainers back Labour when its official policy is to leave speaks to the fact Corbyn has not been as firm in that leave position as people think, as a leader he is more cautious than he used to be.
    Indeed. People do insist he's thick though.
    I wonder if people are mistaking indecision and lethargy for strategy?
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    I do not there will be a second referendum. It is simpler just to cancel Brexit assuming the CJEU lets us.

    There will be an outcry no matter what happens.

    The political class will not dare to cancel Brexit without the covering excuse of a referendum.
    Of course they would. Look at all the excuses....

    - Time is short
    - Last time it took 7 months
    - Nobody know what questions to use
    - Nobody know how to phrase the questions
    - Scheduling councils to count and get printing

    It also has the advantage that cancelling guarantees the "correct" answer. The public might pick the wrong one to "stick it to the politicians" as happened last time (there was then the spectacle of Voter Remorse and the second petition with 4m signatures wanting a re-run

    The politicians have all the cover they need.
    There was no evidence of voter remorse. Sore losers signing a petition is meaningless.
    This would be the remorse that there is no evidence of.... "In the voting booth, Shaw finally made her choice: she voted leave. “To be quite frank, I did not believe it would happen,” she says. “I thought I’d put in a protest vote. The impact of my stupidity!” "

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/25/protest-vote-regret-voting-leave-brexit
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 91,408
    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/patrickwintour/status/1071114914125803520

    If accurate, does not sound like report of a man getting ready to sing the praises of Remain, or attempt to re-run the referendum, or with any love for the EU in general.

    It's just part of Labour's strategy - Corbyn talks up the need to respect the result but renegotiate while others play up the need for a referendum, while Starmer maneuvers the party into a position it can support remain from. Whether the party formally backs remain in a referendum or is officially neutral, they can all point to Corbyn's words as showing they wanted to leave but the Tories made it impossible through their ineptitude, while remainers get their opportunity to not leave at all and can look past that Corbyn himself did not seem keen on the prospect.

    Worst case scenario Corbyn really would prefer to leave, but even then he's in with a decent chance of being PM off the back of all this, so he can live with it. The very fact so many remainers back Labour when its official policy is to leave speaks to the fact Corbyn has not been as firm in that leave position as people think, as a leader he is more cautious than he used to be.
    Indeed. People do insist he's thick though.
    Might well be the case, but nevertheless he is an experienced member of the political establishment (sorry Corbynites out there, being an MP, even an unconventional backbench one, for 30+ years means you are establishment all the way through in my book) who has at least a level of nous and cunning, and even if we assume he does not, he can play his part for Labour, believing entirely what he is saying, but if he cannot get what he wants, well, he never quit the party when it was doing all manner of things he really did not like, would he really stand in the way of that party doing what it wants, particularly when him being PM is on the line? Being PM has not been a career long goal for him, but he's been leader for long enough to grow into the role to some extent, and this is part of that.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    edited December 2018

    Theo said:

    Theo said:


    Nope it is still illegitimate and will be regarded as such by a very large part of the population. The idea that this will just go away because you manage to stop Brexit this time (which is the only reason Remainers want a second referendum) is utter fantasy.

    Of course it will go away. The gammons will be FURIOUS. But they were furious before. And they'll be completely impotent from now on. ALL we have to do to fix this omnishambles is stitch up the Brexiteers, and let them know we're doing it. Let them know how totally, utterly and inescapably BEATEN they've been. Humiliated, beyond recovery, impotent beyond redemption.

    No UK government will ever contemplate leaving again having witnessed the shitshow it will unleash, and even if it did, the ECJ would be able to veto it.

    The problem will have gone away.

    If the worst impact the UK has to suffer from this omnishambles is gammons huffing ineffectually below the line on Mail Online stories, I think we can all pat ourselves on the back for a job well done.
    This post just shows what a sad, pathetic individual you are, motivated by hatred and racism. What drives a person to be like this? A lack of a loving mother in childhood? Social ostracisation in your teens? Whichever it is, you have my pity.
    Look, I understand losing is hard. But don't struggle. It will only hurt more. It will all be over soon.
    At the end of the day, while I want what is best for a democratic Britain, my life will be fine. I have a loving wife and children, a good circle of friends and a lucrative career. You, on the other hand, will always be a loser.
    You're an anonymous bloke (I assume?) on the internet. Don't you thinks it's a teeny bit pitiful to be going on about your entirely hypothetical, lovely, non loser life?
    Have you not met Theo IRL? Women want him. Men want to be him.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,841
    ydoethur said:

    dixiedean said:

    kle4 said:

    https://twitter.com/patrickwintour/status/1071114914125803520

    If accurate, does not sound like report of a man getting ready to sing the praises of Remain, or attempt to re-run the referendum, or with any love for the EU in general.

    It's just part of Labour's strategy - Corbyn talks up the need to respect the result but renegotiate while others play up the need for a referendum, while Starmer maneuvers the party into a position it can support remain from. Whether the party formally backs remain in a referendum or is officially neutral, they can all point to Corbyn's words as showing they wanted to leave but the Tories made it impossible through their ineptitude, while remainers get their opportunity to not leave at all and can look past that Corbyn himself did not seem keen on the prospect.

    Worst case scenario Corbyn really would prefer to leave, but even then he's in with a decent chance of being PM off the back of all this, so he can live with it. The very fact so many remainers back Labour when its official policy is to leave speaks to the fact Corbyn has not been as firm in that leave position as people think, as a leader he is more cautious than he used to be.
    Indeed. People do insist he's thick though.
    I wonder if people are mistaking indecision and lethargy for strategy?
    Perhaps. But managing to be on both sides of the most devisive split of our times, without either side figuring out which side he is on, is extremely fortunate.
This discussion has been closed.