I see a couple of pb’ers spouses are nurturing naive delusions (I could use stronger language) about John McDonnell. Perhaps he’ll be compared to Obama and Mother Theresa next.
Let’s not beat around the bush: he’s pure filth. A shit of the first order.
He’s no worse than Dominic Raab and Esther McVey.
Those two heard the Health Secretary say in the event of no deal he couldn’t guarantee people wouldn’t die because of No Deal but they put ideology ahead of compromise and saving people’s lives.
Oh, he’s much worse. He’s argued for unifying Ireland through the bullet and the bomb, dog whistled about lynching leading female Tories and quipped about runs on the pound and a Marxist revolution.
Remarkable you’re defending him.
I’m not defending him, I’ll be emigrating for a bit if he becomes Chancellor or PM.
I’m just pointing out how the ERG/Brexit is legitimising/reducing the fear of him.
Boris is near certain to run, but he's very divisive. Davis may sit it out (he's knocking on a bit). McVey is likely to run, not sure about Raab.
There's also the likes of Hunt, Javid, Mordaunt to consider.
If May goes down she likely takes all the Cabinet Deal backers with her
I'm not at all sure that's right. The first electorate, the MPs, are going to give a lot of credit to those who showed loyalty and who tried against the odds to make the Prime Minister's plan work, especially if it would have been easier for them to duck out.
Who do you reckon are the contenders (or at least those not worth laying) if the PM resigns before Christmas? Gove Hunt Davis Javid Geoff Cox as a caretaker?
To be clear, are we talking next Prime Minister or next Conservative leader? It is looking increasingly likely that those might be different people.
Next PM. Indeed it’s quite possible they’re two different people.
Next Prime Minister - just possibly David Lidington if Theresa May deserts the post, as a stopgap. Otherwise I think the first four listed are the four who might be able to bridge the gap between the Conservative party and Parliament.
It's worth looking at some longshots who might be able to command the confidence of the House if the Conservative party insist on picking someone who cannot. Philip Hammond is perhaps the most obvious choice but Vince Cable might be surprisingly inoffensive to the largest number of people. It perhaps actively helps that he is not in one of the two main parties.
Thanks for that reply, and good call on Lidington as a caretaker. Will take a look look at my book on this as it looks like a change of PM could well be imminent now.
I hadn’t thought of your second scenario, but surely someone like Cable would see both Con and Lab seek to no-confidence him as soon as possible? Hammond as a caretaker PM while not actually leader of the party would close off the ‘22 route of getting rid of him, but could he see the same deal through with half his own party opposed to it?
He wouldn't be trying to see the same deal through. A non-main party leader Prime Minister would be steering a government to a second referendum.
Hmm, interesting. Lots of happy bookmakers if someone comes from absolutely nowhere to be next PM.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
Corbyn would not get a majority on that basis, Leavers would be almost all behind the Tories or UKIP and the DUP prefer No Deal.
More likely a general election and a Corbyn minority government propped up by the SNP for SM and CU
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
Boris is near certain to run, but he's very divisive. Davis may sit it out (he's knocking on a bit). McVey is likely to run, not sure about Raab.
There's also the likes of Hunt, Javid, Mordaunt to consider.
If May goes down she likely takes all the Cabinet Deal backers with her and the membership will almost certainly back whichever No Deal candidate of Davis, Boris, Raab or McVey ends in the final two
I hate to break it to you HYUFD, but if May is replaced then I can't see that we'd have time for a membership vote.
I hate to break it to you Mortimer but if May is replaced the ERG will only accept a coronation for a No Dealer otherwise they will put up a candidate and force a membership vote
And if that candidate is beaten in the HoC on these lines; 'Dealer' 298 ERG 17, or even 248;67, will it STILL go to the membership? Think there are two suspended Tories, aren't there?
Boris is near certain to run, but he's very divisive. Davis may sit it out (he's knocking on a bit). McVey is likely to run, not sure about Raab.
There's also the likes of Hunt, Javid, Mordaunt to consider.
If May goes down she likely takes all the Cabinet Deal backers with her and the membership will almost certainly back whichever No Deal candidate of Davis, Boris, Raab or McVey ends in the final two
I hate to break it to you HYUFD, but if May is replaced then I can't see that we'd have time for a membership vote.
I hate to break it to you Mortimer but if May is replaced the ERG will only accept a coronation for a No Dealer otherwise they will put up a candidate and force a membership vote
And if that candidate is beaten in the HoC on these lines; 'Dealer' 298 ERG 17, or even 248;67, will it STILL go to the membership? Think there are two suspended Tories, aren't there?
It’s schrodinger’s renegotiation: there absolutely isn’t one and is one at the same time.
It will just be called a “clarification” rather than a change.
But if there isn’t a substantial change to the actual legal text of the WA, it’s still not passing Parliament with 100 MPs on the government side opposed to it.
Do Labour abstain at the last minute to try and force a GE, or do the EU blink after a month of staring no-deal (and a hard Irish border) in the face?
A clarification is a change to the text.
Provided it’s in writing, of course. It could be a rider to the WA.
That’s not what Junker’s saying though, nor anyone else on the EU side. They’re up for talking about how Mrs May can better sell the WA to Parliament, but without actually modifying the text of it at all. They’ll happily modify the political statement that accompanies the WA, but that means precisely nothing in the grand scheme of things. A large number of MPs have no confidence in the EU to act in good faith after the day we formally leave.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
Have you a plan for that ?
Staying isnt just the status quo ante too much has moved on.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
The DUP don't care about "No deal", and are the hardest of all Brexiteers. They are absolute ideologues who get voted in even after almost literally setting fire to £50 notes (RHI). They have parliament precisely where they want it right now.
I see a couple of pb’ers spouses are nurturing naive delusions (I could use stronger language) about John McDonnell. Perhaps he’ll be compared to Obama and Mother Theresa next.
Let’s not beat around the bush: he’s pure filth. A shit of the first order.
He’s no worse than Dominic Raab and Esther McVey.
Those two heard the Health Secretary say in the event of no deal he couldn’t guarantee people wouldn’t die because of No Deal but they put ideology ahead of compromise and saving people’s lives.
That';s because "I can't guarantee X won't happen" translates as "X could happen", and "could" is a good indicator of scaremongering nonsense.
Corbyn would not get a majority on that basis, Leavers would be almost all behind the Tories or UKIP and the DUP prefer No Deal.
More likely a general election and a Corbyn minority government propped up by the SNP for SM and CU
I'm not predicting whether Lab would win the eventual GE, I'm more just gaming the current scenario.
The DUP's priority is to get rid of the backstop and to avoid a GE which will likely remove their disproportionate power. How can they do that other than by cutting a deal with Lab?
Making an assumption that (i) TM not changing plan and (ii) TM not deposed and (iii) No Deal not allowed to happen.
I see a couple of pb’ers spouses are nurturing naive delusions (I could use stronger language) about John McDonnell. Perhaps he’ll be compared to Obama and Mother Theresa next.
Let’s not beat around the bush: he’s pure filth. A shit of the first order.
In the same qay that BoJo is a shit but not quite on the scale.
Boris is near certain to run, but he's very divisive. Davis may sit it out (he's knocking on a bit). McVey is likely to run, not sure about Raab.
There's also the likes of Hunt, Javid, Mordaunt to consider.
If May goes down she likely takes all the Cabinet Deal backers with her and the membership will almost certainly back whichever No Deal candidate of Davis, Boris, Raab or McVey ends in the final two
I hate to break it to you HYUFD, but if May is replaced then I can't see that we'd have time for a membership vote.
I hate to break it to you Mortimer but if May is replaced the ERG will only accept a coronation for a No Dealer otherwise they will put up a candidate and force a membership vote
There isn’t time for a membership vote. If needs be, I fully suspect the party board will just change the rules.
Thinking about it, and remembering the last almost similar crisis, Suez, the big difference seems to be me that, as I recall, Hugh Gaitskell, then Labour leader, wasn't the hate figure among the Tories that Corbyn seems to be. Aneurin Bevan was, almost, but he wan't Leader. In other words, IF Labour had a Leader with a less 'horrifying' to the Tories, back story, we'd have a better chance of getting out of the mess.
If Labour had a less horrifying leader we wouldn't be here, because they would have got some scrutiny in the election leading to them either winning or losing decisively.
Tories always say the current Labour leader is the most horrifying ever. If Labour had a different leader we would be in exactly the same place.
That’s true about the Tories. They do go on monotonously and almost exclusively about how awful the current Labour leader is, no matter who that leader is. That said, it doesn’t mean it’s not true because in Corbyn’s case, partly because of who Corbyn is and partly because of McDonnell,I think it is true. Anyone reading Labour’s last manifesto would realise that Labour would destroy the economy.
Mrs Foxy isn't consumed by Brexit, she is more a Strictly and Apprentice fan, but she was saying very approving things about McDonnell the other night. She finds him rather charming. She is no Corbyn fan, blaming his lame and half-hearted Brexit campaigning for the mess we are in now.
I wasn't too fussed about Corbyn. I thought he was a bad choice - but in the absence of any good ones what the heck. I was originally very suspicious of McDonnell though. But now we've got to know him I am finding him quite interesting. He may well be just the man we need right now.
Interesting in the same way as Man in the High Castle on Netflix.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
The DUP don't care about "No deal", and are the hardest of all Brexiteers. They are absolute ideologues who get voted in even after almost literally setting fire to £50 notes (RHI). They have parliament precisely where they want it right now.
They do. Which is why they will not want a GE. And they would prefer an ultra soft Brexit with no backstop to the current plan. So if for the sake of argument we accept that No Deal is not a runner and that TM has no other plan and that she is not deposed, then the DUP might need to do a deal with Lab. That's where I'm coming from. It's not as unlikely as one might think.
It’s schrodinger’s renegotiation: there absolutely isn’t one and is one at the same time.
It will just be called a “clarification” rather than a change.
But if there isn’t a substantial change to the actual legal text of the WA, it’s still not passing Parliament with 100 MPs on the government side opposed to it.
Do Labour abstain at the last minute to try and force a GE, or do the EU blink after a month of staring no-deal (and a hard Irish border) in the face?
A clarification is a change to the text.
Provided it’s in writing, of course. It could be a rider to the WA.
That’s not what Junker’s saying though, nor anyone else on the EU side. They’re up for talking about how Mrs May can better sell the WA to Parliament, but without actually modifying the text of it at all. They’ll happily modify the political statement that accompanies the WA, but that means precisely nothing in the grand scheme of things. A large number of MPs have no confidence in the EU to act in good faith after the day we formally leave.
In which case, why are they trying to overturn the referendum result?
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Good, but we could do without the national humiliation and being a laughing stock. That's one good thing about Trump; he keeps us away from being the worlds worst.
She just keeps doing the same things over and over again and gets nowhere.
The deal isn't going to pass, so she needs to either prepare for no deal, remain or an extension of A50 (perhaps by withdrawing it and invoking it again) followed by her resignation and let someone else have a go.
She has failed and needs to get out of the way now.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Good, but we could do without the national humiliation and being a laughing stock. That's one good thing about Trump; he keeps us away from being the worlds worst.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
Have you a plan for that ?
Staying isnt just the status quo ante too much has moved on.
I think that's right and there has been a paucity of thinking on that front. It's understandable given the needed to degrade the referendum result but if ' Remain ' were ever to come into view it couldn't be a Bobby Ewing senario. And given Cameron's deal was founded by EUCO after the referendum a lot of the offer would need to be domestic. I suspect there would need to be standing legislation for a further Brexit referendum with an established trigger as well as notification legislation. I think the Coalition's referendum lock could be strengthened to include some accessions ( Turkey ) and not using transitional controls on new member FoM. In essence I think Remain would have to accept it was on a 10 year probationary period with a settled mechanism for calling another referendum after that on the books if certain conditions met.
She just keeps doing the same things over and over again and gets nowhere.
The deal isn't going to pass, so she needs to either prepare for no deal, remain or an extension of A50 (perhaps by withdrawing it and invoking it again) followed by her resignation and let someone else have a go.
She has failed and needs to get out of the way now.
If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results ...
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
She just keeps doing the same things over and over again and gets nowhere.
The deal isn't going to pass, so she needs to either prepare for no deal, remain or an extension of A50 (perhaps by withdrawing it and invoking it again) followed by her resignation and let someone else have a go.
She has failed and needs to get out of the way now.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
Have you a plan for that ?
Staying isnt just the status quo ante too much has moved on.
And of course a 10 year Remain probationary period would have to be fundamentally different this time. Business would have to fund a serious permanent campaign and pro European politicians would need to be full throated in a way they've never really been. Of course their would be counter mobilisation on the Leave side. They might actually spend the 10 years coming up with a plan.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
Have you a plan for that ?
Staying isnt just the status quo ante too much has moved on.
I think that's right and there has been a paucity of thinking on that front. It's understandable given the needed to degrade the referendum result but if ' Remain ' were ever to come into view it couldn't be a Bobby Ewing senario. And given Cameron's deal was founded by EUCO after the referendum a lot of the offer would need to be domestic. I suspect there would need to be standing legislation for a further Brexit referendum with an established trigger as well as notification legislation. I think the Coalition's referendum lock could be strengthened to include some accessions ( Turkey ) and not using transitional controls on new member FoM. In essence I think Remain would have to accept it was on a 10 year probationary period with a settled mechanism for calling another referendum after that on the books if certain conditions met.
That sounds like a recipe for keeping the EU issue right at the forefront of politics permanently.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
Shush... you might blow the whole gaff and everyone realises that these types of renewables are an expensive Ponzi scheme
I wonder how Sturgeon might do if she formed a UK-wide Not Being Completely Fecking Useless Party.
Hatred of the English wouldn't play well in England.
Nah, she doesn't hate the English; she just loves Scotland, and who can blame her, it's a lovely country and could obviously thrive independently.
The UK is guilty of the same mistake with respect to Scotland as the EU has been wrt the UK - namely not offering enough positive reasons to want to remain in it.
Perhapds the future for the UK might be as a federation of equals with the HoC becoming a purely English parliament (alongside Holyrood and Cardiff) and the HoL being scrapped and replaced by an elected UK federal assembly to decide UK-wide matters (e.g. defence)?
"You probably have to be at least in your thirties to remember Harry Enfield’s TV character Tim Nice-But-Dim. If you add the description ‘upper class twit’ you probably have all you need to know about Tim, a desperately decent naïf moving through the world in a fog of bemusement and constantly outwitted by the baser creatures surrounding him.
Tim came to mind when I read the latest effusion of pro-SNP/pro-indy messages from people in England, this time related to Brexit."
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
As pensioners £6,000 invested in the panels is a great deal rather than in a savings account or premium bonds.
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
I'm looking at getting panels now. Eight year payback is OK and after that it's all free for up to 25 years. The panels are more efficient and cheaper than they were. I may not even bother with the feed In Tariff, you can get get them to heat water instead and that saves more. Besides, we need to do this sort of to lessen the effects of climate change.
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
Yep, there’s a 100MW solar park just opened in Dubai, and there’s a 250MW one using more efficient panels under construction next door to it. The biggest challenge is keeping them clean from sand and dust.
Solar in the UK is just adding extra capacity which mostly isn’t generated when it’s most needed.
Thinking about it, and remembering the last almost similar crisis, Suez, the big difference seems to be me that, as I recall, Hugh Gaitskell, then Labour leader, wasn't the hate figure among the Tories that Corbyn seems to be. Aneurin Bevan was, almost, but he wan't Leader. In other words, IF Labour had a Leader with a less 'horrifying' to the Tories, back story, we'd have a better chance of getting out of the mess.
If Labour had a less horrifying leader we wouldn't be here, because they would have got some scrutiny in the election leading to them either winning or losing decisively.
Tories always say the current Labour leader is the most horrifying ever. If Labour had a different leader we would be in exactly the same place.
Dunno about ever, but surely it's hardly controversial to say that John Smith was better than Blair, who was massively better than Brown, who was nonetheless a more serious figure than Miliband, and that Corbyn, by any standard, is the most dangerous, incompetent and extreme Labour leader ever, by a large margin.
As for your second sentence; far from it. If Labour had a sensible, credible leader and some half-sane policies, it would be 25 points ahead in the polls against the current squabbling shambles of a Tory party, and very probably getting some defections.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
Have you a plan for that ?
Staying isnt just the status quo ante too much has moved on.
Third pillar would be two tax/es stream/s. One a Tobin tax/es on EU immigration. Two some sort of ' turnover levy ' on the section of the economy judged to be derived from EU membership. That would be academic and fudgible but would be allocated via a very Leave area heavy formula.
Or alternatively just pay it as part of Universal Credit labelled as European Credit.
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
As pensioners £6,000 invested in the panels is a great deal rather than in a savings account or premium bonds.
What about depreciation of the asset? At end of life you will only have scrap value/disposal cost - your capital will have vanished.
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
Yep, there’s a 100MW solar park just opened in Dubai, and there’s a 250MW one using more efficient panels under construction next door to it. The biggest challenge is keeping them clean from sand and dust.
Solar in the UK is just adding extra capacity which mostly isn’t generated when it’s most needed.
I don't agree.
Until two years ago, we were running coal in the summer.
Now only sparingly, and perhaps the year after next not at all.
Those are peak times for solar, and the reduction in demand helps us achieve that reduction.
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
Alistair, a word of warning - steer clear of leasing, it can make selling the house or re-mortgaging tricky. Also someone else is getting most of the benefit.
Our experience has been very similar to Big_G's. It was well-worth buying them at the time (2013) but I seem to recall that the subsidy has gone now for new installs (I could be wrong).
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
I'm looking at getting panels now. Eight year payback is OK and after that it's all free for up to 25 years. The panels are more efficient and cheaper than they were. I may not even bother with the feed In Tariff, you can get get them to heat water instead and that saves more. Besides, we need to do this sort of to lessen the effects of climate change.
I wish you were making energy efficiency investment decisions at some of our clients!
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
I'm looking at getting panels now. Eight year payback is OK and after that it's all free for up to 25 years. The panels are more efficient and cheaper than they were. I may not even bother with the feed In Tariff, you can get get them to heat water instead and that saves more. Besides, we need to do this sort of to lessen the effects of climate change.
I wish you were making energy efficiency investment decisions at some of our clients!
Don't forget to factor in the costs of servicing and maintenance.
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
Alistair, a word of warning - steer clear of leasing, it can make selling the house or re-mortgaging tricky. Also someone else is getting most of the benefit.
Our experience has been very similar to Big_G's. It was well-worth buying them at the time (2013) but I seem to recall that the subsidy has gone now for new installs (I could be wrong).
Yes, the feedin tariff has been cut and will now be abolished - so the householders' payback now depends mainly on reducing their own use (so it will make more sense if you are home during the day).
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
Yep, there’s a 100MW solar park just opened in Dubai, and there’s a 250MW one using more efficient panels under construction next door to it. The biggest challenge is keeping them clean from sand and dust.
Solar in the UK is just adding extra capacity which mostly isn’t generated when it’s most needed.
I don't agree.
Until two years ago, we were running coal in the summer.
Now only sparingly, and perhaps the year after next not at all.
Those are peak times for solar, and the reduction in demand helps us achieve that reduction.
If we had put the investment into thermal plant with CCS rather than solar, we would have low-carbon dispatchable generation that would be available 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.
Instead, we have to pay capacity payments to banks of diesel engines and other high-emissions plant to sit there doing nothing until it is cold, dark and windless in January.
Thinking about it, and remembering the last almost similar crisis, Suez, the big difference seems to be me that, as I recall, Hugh Gaitskell, then Labour leader, wasn't the hate figure among the Tories that Corbyn seems to be. Aneurin Bevan was, almost, but he wan't Leader. In other words, IF Labour had a Leader with a less 'horrifying' to the Tories, back story, we'd have a better chance of getting out of the mess.
If Labour had a less horrifying leader we wouldn't be here, because they would have got some scrutiny in the election leading to them either winning or losing decisively.
Tories always say the current Labour leader is the most horrifying ever. If Labour had a different leader we would be in exactly the same place.
Dunno about ever, but surely it's hardly controversial to say that John Smith was better than Blair, who was massively better than Brown, who was nonetheless a more serious figure than Miliband, and that Corbyn, by any standard, is the most dangerous, incompetent and extreme Labour leader ever, by a large margin.
As for your second sentence; far from it. If Labour had a sensible, credible leader and some half-sane policies, it would be 25 points ahead in the polls against the current squabbling shambles of a Tory party, and very probably getting some defections.
A key difference is that Labour now are not what you think they are. Momentum and Corbynites now hold the party committees and so it is a hard left core under a familiar exterior. Farage is odious but at least he had the guts to leave his party when the extremists took over.
She just keeps doing the same things over and over again and gets nowhere.
The deal isn't going to pass, so she needs to either prepare for no deal, remain or an extension of A50 (perhaps by withdrawing it and invoking it again) followed by her resignation and let someone else have a go.
She has failed and needs to get out of the way now.
If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results ...
The irony of course is that this quote is attributed to Einstein. Who on his theorising of Brownian Motion showed that actually, much of the universe is random chance, and with later quantum theory taking this idea much further than he would have ever done. That in actual fact you can do the same experiment over and over and end up with a different result each time.
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
Alistair, a word of warning - steer clear of leasing, it can make selling the house or re-mortgaging tricky. Also someone else is getting most of the benefit.
Our experience has been very similar to Big_G's. It was well-worth buying them at the time (2013) but I seem to recall that the subsidy has gone now for new installs (I could be wrong).
The Feed In Tariff has gone down and will be stopped at the end of March. However, the main advantage is in savings made by using your free electricity instead of the power company. Plus you can use any excess to heat your water which is more beneficial than the FIT.
She just keeps doing the same things over and over again and gets nowhere.
The deal isn't going to pass, so she needs to either prepare for no deal, remain or an extension of A50 (perhaps by withdrawing it and invoking it again) followed by her resignation and let someone else have a go.
She has failed and needs to get out of the way now.
If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results ...
The irony of course is that this quote is attributed to Einstein. Who on his theorising of Brownian Motion showed that actually, much of the universe is random chance, and with later quantum theory taking this idea much further than he would have ever done. That in actual fact you can do the same experiment over and over and end up with a different result each time.
See also - Chaos. However, not at all sure it applies to politics.
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
Yep, there’s a 100MW solar park just opened in Dubai, and there’s a 250MW one using more efficient panels under construction next door to it. The biggest challenge is keeping them clean from sand and dust.
Solar in the UK is just adding extra capacity which mostly isn’t generated when it’s most needed.
I don't agree.
Until two years ago, we were running coal in the summer.
Now only sparingly, and perhaps the year after next not at all.
Those are peak times for solar, and the reduction in demand helps us achieve that reduction.
If we had put the investment into thermal plant with CCS rather than solar, we would have low-carbon dispatchable generation that would be available 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.
Instead, we have to pay capacity payments to banks of diesel engines and other high-emissions plant to sit there doing nothing until it is cold, dark and windless in January.
If you want to oppose the good in place of the better, by all means make that case.
The reality is that supporting homeowners to reduce their own bills was sexy enough to get support that wasn't elsewhere.
Meanwhile renewables are up 20% y-o-y and continue to grow.
I worked for a renewable energy consultancy/design/install company for 2 years so I know quite a bit about them. In the north of England, the payback is pathetic on a 4kWp array with the curreny subsidies. You’d be looking at 20-25 year payback even with a 30 degree pitch south facing roof.
Much better off with a few panels heating a hot water cylinder.
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
As pensioners £6,000 invested in the panels is a great deal rather than in a savings account or premium bonds.
What about depreciation of the asset? At end of life you will only have scrap value/disposal cost - your capital will have vanished.
Under our scheme I will be 95 and my wife, God bless her, 101 so it is not too much on our mind to be honest
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
Yep, there’s a 100MW solar park just opened in Dubai, and there’s a 250MW one using more efficient panels under construction next door to it. The biggest challenge is keeping them clean from sand and dust.
Solar in the UK is just adding extra capacity which mostly isn’t generated when it’s most needed.
I don't agree.
Until two years ago, we were running coal in the summer.
Now only sparingly, and perhaps the year after next not at all.
Those are peak times for solar, and the reduction in demand helps us achieve that reduction.
Besides, if solar panels makes my electricity (and potentially gas via water heating) use smaller then cheaper for me and less need for the country to use coal and gas.
I see a couple of pb’ers spouses are nurturing naive delusions (I could use stronger language) about John McDonnell. Perhaps he’ll be compared to Obama and Mother Theresa next.
Let’s not beat around the bush: he’s pure filth. A shit of the first order.
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
I'm looking at getting panels now. Eight year payback is OK and after that it's all free for up to 25 years. The panels are more efficient and cheaper than they were. I may not even bother with the feed In Tariff, you can get get them to heat water instead and that saves more. Besides, we need to do this sort of to lessen the effects of climate change.
I wish you were making energy efficiency investment decisions at some of our clients!
Don't forget to factor in the costs of servicing and maintenance.
There are virtually no servicing or maintenance costs. To date we have not spent a penny on them
Just point out that Full Employment has just got a bit fuller and wage growth is 3.6%. Combined that with stead low inflation, low interest rates and low petrol costs, does this partly explain why despite the handling of Brexit the government is still level with the opposition eight years in?
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
Yep, there’s a 100MW solar park just opened in Dubai, and there’s a 250MW one using more efficient panels under construction next door to it. The biggest challenge is keeping them clean from sand and dust.
Solar in the UK is just adding extra capacity which mostly isn’t generated when it’s most needed.
I don't agree.
Until two years ago, we were running coal in the summer.
Now only sparingly, and perhaps the year after next not at all.
Those are peak times for solar, and the reduction in demand helps us achieve that reduction.
Besides, if solar panels makes my electricity (and potentially gas via water heating) use smaller then cheaper for me and less need for the country to use coal and gas.
It only reduces your useage if you are using the power during the day when the sun is out. If you work and are out of the house mostly during daylight hours all you are doing is feeding the grid.
You could install a battery, but then your payback is greater than the lifetime of the battery.
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
As pensioners £6,000 invested in the panels is a great deal rather than in a savings account or premium bonds.
What about depreciation of the asset? At end of life you will only have scrap value/disposal cost - your capital will have vanished.
Under our scheme I will be 95 and my wife, God bless her, 101 so it is not too much on our mind to be honest
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
As pensioners £6,000 invested in the panels is a great deal rather than in a savings account or premium bonds.
What about depreciation of the asset? At end of life you will only have scrap value/disposal cost - your capital will have vanished.
Under our scheme I will be 95 and my wife, God bless her, 101 so it is not too much on our mind to be honest
I hope you both see out the contract!
You are so kind - we do keep taking our pills !!!!!!!
Leadsom just lays into Bercow on R4..this is only going to get worse
I thought he was very fair yesterday.
It doesn't seem right to me that if the government is within it's rights to do something that it is his role to say they shouldn't. Isn't that the job of the opposition?
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
Have you a plan for that ?
Staying isnt just the status quo ante too much has moved on.
Third pillar would be two tax/es stream/s. One a Tobin tax/es on EU immigration. Two some sort of ' turnover levy ' on the section of the economy judged to be derived from EU membership. That would be academic and fudgible but would be allocated via a very Leave area heavy formula.
Or alternatively just pay it as part of Universal Credit labelled as European Credit.
Apols not ignoring you. looks like the house next door has been broken in to.
wrt your points this simply highlights the paucity of our thinking. The Brexit "debate" has become too much about stamping on the other sides face rather than looking at what it all means. Anyone looking to stay in still has to put forward that big missing chunk of the Remain campaign naemly what are the benefits. daft scaremongering still wont cut it.
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
Yep, there’s a 100MW solar park just opened in Dubai, and there’s a 250MW one using more efficient panels under construction next door to it. The biggest challenge is keeping them clean from sand and dust.
Solar in the UK is just adding extra capacity which mostly isn’t generated when it’s most needed.
I don't agree.
Until two years ago, we were running coal in the summer.
Now only sparingly, and perhaps the year after next not at all.
Those are peak times for solar, and the reduction in demand helps us achieve that reduction.
Besides, if solar panels makes my electricity (and potentially gas via water heating) use smaller then cheaper for me and less need for the country to use coal and gas.
If your motivation is environmental rather than economic then fair play. However, another way to achieve this is to buy your leccy on a Green Tariff and avoid an up-front capital outlay.
Dunno about ever, but surely it's hardly controversial to say that John Smith was better than Blair, who was massively better than Brown, who was nonetheless a more serious figure than Miliband, and that Corbyn, by any standard, is the most dangerous, incompetent and extreme Labour leader ever, by a large margin.
As for your second sentence; far from it. If Labour had a sensible, credible leader and some half-sane policies, it would be 25 points ahead in the polls against the current squabbling shambles of a Tory party, and very probably getting some defections.
Another post I can agree with in full. I would have voted for Smith without hesitation, and Blair would have been happily embraced by the Tory party if he had worn a blue rosette.
Corbyn is an entirely different beast. Corbyn is Britain's Trump. God help us if we end up with him running the country.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
My take is that in a referendum there will be a differential turnout in favour of Remainers.
She just keeps doing the same things over and over again and gets nowhere.
The deal isn't going to pass, so she needs to either prepare for no deal, remain or an extension of A50 (perhaps by withdrawing it and invoking it again) followed by her resignation and let someone else have a go.
She has failed and needs to get out of the way now.
If the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results ...
The irony of course is that this quote is attributed to Einstein. Who on his theorising of Brownian Motion showed that actually, much of the universe is random chance, and with later quantum theory taking this idea much further than he would have ever done. That in actual fact you can do the same experiment over and over and end up with a different result each time.
See also - Chaos. However, not at all sure it applies to politics.
I suppose chaos maybe not so, as it’s determinist. If you carry the *exact* same experiment out, you will,get the exact same result. Iirc (it’s been a while) the difficulty with chaos is that the tiniest value difference gets magnified the further away ait gets from the initial experiment.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
Andrea Leadsom’s cunning plan is to make the backstop not a backstop but subject to annual agreement. I mean, really.
She said annual agreement by each of Westminster and the European parliament. But the EU will always say they have a veto so it does not move things on at all.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
My take is that in a referendum there will be a differential turnout in favour of Remainers.
Im not convinced
currently what we are seeing is most likely the best the polling gets for Remanin since there is no organised counter narrative.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
Can you imagine the deal May would have come back with had the ERG stayed quiet for the last 18 months ?
It would probably involve Princes Harry and William personally carrying Juncker's sedan chair around Brussels.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
With all due respect it is May who is playing chicken with Parliament over ‘No Deal’. It is her who is running down the clock.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
My take is that in a referendum there will be a differential turnout in favour of Remainers.
Yes, it's easy to suppress turnout amongst your opposition if you make clear they won't be allowed to win even if they win.
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I have solar panels on my house here in London and they provide a nice tax free income as well as reducing my electricity bill quite considerably. In Cumbria they give us both electricity and hot water. We’ve had no problems with them at all. They should be much more widespread than they are.
I have solar panels on my house here in London and they provide a nice tax free income as well as reducing my electricity bill quite considerably. In Cumbria they give us both electricity and hot water. We’ve had no problems with them at all. They should be much more widespread than they are.
But I dont have them, or a second house in London and my electricity in Cumbria is more expensive on the one house i do have to fund your investment income.
I have solar panels on my house here in London and they provide a nice tax free income as well as reducing my electricity bill quite considerably. In Cumbria they give us both electricity and hot water. We’ve had no problems with them at all. They should be much more widespread than they are.
What FIT and Generation Tariff rate do you get? It is very easy to reccomend them when your rate is x4 higher than what people now get. It changes the economics massively.
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
Yep, there’s a 100MW solar park just opened in Dubai, and there’s a 250MW one using more efficient panels under construction next door to it. The biggest challenge is keeping them clean from sand and dust.
Solar in the UK is just adding extra capacity which mostly isn’t generated when it’s most needed.
I don't agree.
Until two years ago, we were running coal in the summer.
Now only sparingly, and perhaps the year after next not at all.
Those are peak times for solar, and the reduction in demand helps us achieve that reduction.
Besides, if solar panels makes my electricity (and potentially gas via water heating) use smaller then cheaper for me and less need for the country to use coal and gas.
It only reduces your useage if you are using the power during the day when the sun is out. If you work and are out of the house mostly during daylight hours all you are doing is feeding the grid.
You could install a battery, but then your payback is greater than the lifetime of the battery.
Feeding the grid used to be profitable, and now much less so. So I think we are talking about two worlds. In the new world, it's people who are at home during the day that will benefit the most.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
My take is that in a referendum there will be a differential turnout in favour of Remainers.
Yes, it's easy to suppress turnout amongst your opposition if you make clear they won't be allowed to win even if they win.
Vote again in another once in a lifetime referendum - if you win we won't hold another one to try and overturn it for at least 18 months.
I have solar panels on my house here in London and they provide a nice tax free income as well as reducing my electricity bill quite considerably. In Cumbria they give us both electricity and hot water. We’ve had no problems with them at all. They should be much more widespread than they are.
Sorry to be something of a broken record, but what is the payback period on investment for both installations? (If you don't mind me asking)
It becomes clear that TM has no plan other than her deal and will not be ditched by the tories, so Lab + oppo parties + DUP combine and bring down the govt in a VONC.
They do a deal whereby Corbyn becomes PM in a minority Lab govt. Mandate ONLY to do Brexit since they won't support him on much else.
Lab extend art 50 and negotiate a very very soft Brexit. They commit to CU and SM and are able to drop the backstop. We leave on that basis.
Corbyn now calls GE with support from all parties and goes for a majority.
We may as well remain
That will be what happens at this rate.
Listening to Crispin Blunt just now he is another one for WTO and not paying any money
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The ERG need to fuck off and form their own party. They are the Militant tendency of the Tory party. Steve Baker sounded utterly odious on the Today programme this morning.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
I normally consider you one of our more balanced psoters. You now have Brexit fever,
I think we are all #brexitfever now. With maybe Theresa May being the exception.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
My take is that in a referendum there will be a differential turnout in favour of Remainers.
Yes, it's easy to suppress turnout amongst your opposition if you make clear they won't be allowed to win even if they win.
You seem to be missing the point - Remainers will be out in bulk because it's essential for them not to leave, leavers do not seem so worried so may not go out and vote....
I'll have nothing bad said about EdM. I retired in 2010 with a small lump sum, made into a larger lump sum by Ed 'Santa' Miliband who allowed me to fit solar panels at an outrageous financial advantage. Feeble-minded, he may have been, but I'll be forever grateful.
Do you own those panels outright or are.you leasing them from a company?
In my case I bought my panels 3 years ago and are a fantastic investment. They cost £6,000 and return about £700 pa. Of course I paid cash so have no borrowing costs and the income is index linked, tax free and guaranteed for 20 years
A simple payback period of over 8 years. By contrast, most businesses will not invest in energy efficiency projects with a payback of over 2 years.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
Yep, there’s a 100MW solar park just opened in Dubai, and there’s a 250MW one using more efficient panels under construction next door to it. The biggest challenge is keeping them clean from sand and dust.
Solar in the UK is just adding extra capacity which mostly isn’t generated when it’s most needed.
I don't agree.
Until two years ago, we were running coal in the summer.
Now only sparingly, and perhaps the year after next not at all.
Those are peak times for solar, and the reduction in demand helps us achieve that reduction.
Besides, if solar panels makes my electricity (and potentially gas via water heating) use smaller then cheaper for me and less need for the country to use coal and gas.
It only reduces your useage if you are using the power during the day when the sun is out. If you work and are out of the house mostly during daylight hours all you are doing is feeding the grid.
You could install a battery, but then your payback is greater than the lifetime of the battery.
Feeding the grid used to be profitable, and now much less so. So I think we are talking about two worlds. In the new world, it's people who are at home during the day that will benefit the most.
Agreed. I’ve ran thousands of ROI calculations on solar PV for domestic and commercial. I know what I’m talking about.
Have I stumbled on to a Green web site by mistake?
No. A website that is that over represented by wealthier people who are able to use capital to generate an investment income that drives up everyone else’s energy bills and masquerade that as some kind of virtuous eneviromental statement.
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
Are you misreading the chart? The yellow spot is on the left size of the zero mark for the Suez Crisis, Great Depression and Cuban Missile Crisis as well as WWI/WWII.
Comments
I’m just pointing out how the ERG/Brexit is legitimising/reducing the fear of him.
More likely a general election and a Corbyn minority government propped up by the SNP for SM and CU
Think there are two suspended Tories, aren't there?
https://twitter.com/alexmassie/status/1072422045626060800
https://twitter.com/alexmassie/status/1072422601392316416
Staying isnt just the status quo ante too much has moved on.
They have parliament precisely where they want it right now.
The DUP's priority is to get rid of the backstop and to avoid a GE which will likely remove their disproportionate power. How can they do that other than by cutting a deal with Lab?
Making an assumption that (i) TM not changing plan and (ii) TM not deposed and (iii) No Deal not allowed to happen.
Well, quite.
She just keeps doing the same things over and over again and gets nowhere.
The deal isn't going to pass, so she needs to either prepare for no deal, remain or an extension of A50 (perhaps by withdrawing it and invoking it again) followed by her resignation and let someone else have a go.
She has failed and needs to get out of the way now.
I think she'd be better than Boris, Raab and Davis in all fairness too.
You also have to consider the opportunity cost of the up-front investment, which then majes the payback look even less attractive.
Plus, of course, in a country like the UK solar generates when we don't need it and stops generating when we do need it. It is best suited to locations where the peak power demand is for air conditioning in summer, not keeping the lights on in the depths of winter.
It is clear that the ERG have moved away from the backstop to a clear WTO from day 1
They need to be put back in their box and best way is a referendum on the deal - remain
The sort of swivel-eyed loon that I would strongly welcome as next Tory leader.
The UK is guilty of the same mistake with respect to Scotland as the EU has been wrt the UK - namely not offering enough positive reasons to want to remain in it.
Perhapds the future for the UK might be as a federation of equals with the HoC becoming a purely English parliament (alongside Holyrood and Cardiff) and the HoL being scrapped and replaced by an elected UK federal assembly to decide UK-wide matters (e.g. defence)?
https://mercinon.wordpress.com/2018/12/09/tim-nice-but-dim-and-scottish-nationalism-a-very-english-phenomenon/
"You probably have to be at least in your thirties to remember Harry Enfield’s TV character Tim Nice-But-Dim. If you add the description ‘upper class twit’ you probably have all you need to know about Tim, a desperately decent naïf moving through the world in a fog of bemusement and constantly outwitted by the baser creatures surrounding him.
Tim came to mind when I read the latest effusion of pro-SNP/pro-indy messages from people in England, this time related to Brexit."
Besides, we need to do this sort of to lessen the effects of climate change.
Solar in the UK is just adding extra capacity which mostly isn’t generated when it’s most needed.
As for your second sentence; far from it. If Labour had a sensible, credible leader and some half-sane policies, it would be 25 points ahead in the polls against the current squabbling shambles of a Tory party, and very probably getting some defections.
Or alternatively just pay it as part of Universal Credit labelled as European Credit.
Until two years ago, we were running coal in the summer.
Now only sparingly, and perhaps the year after next not at all.
Those are peak times for solar, and the reduction in demand helps us achieve that reduction.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jan/31/leasehold-solar-panels-lease-mortgage-house-sale
Our experience has been very similar to Big_G's. It was well-worth buying them at the time (2013) but I seem to recall that the subsidy has gone now for new installs (I could be wrong).
Instead, we have to pay capacity payments to banks of diesel engines and other high-emissions plant to sit there doing nothing until it is cold, dark and windless in January.
The irony of course is that this quote is attributed to Einstein. Who on his theorising of Brownian Motion showed that actually, much of the universe is random chance, and with later quantum theory taking this idea much further than he would have ever done. That in actual fact you can do the same experiment over and over and end up with a different result each time.
However, not at all sure it applies to politics.
May loses Cons. VoC. Lobby discussions result her advising Queen to send for Vince/Ed.
The reality is that supporting homeowners to reduce their own bills was sexy enough to get support that wasn't elsewhere.
Meanwhile renewables are up 20% y-o-y and continue to grow.
Much better off with a few panels heating a hot water cylinder.
You could install a battery, but then your payback is greater than the lifetime of the battery.
wrt your points this simply highlights the paucity of our thinking. The Brexit "debate" has become too much about stamping on the other sides face rather than looking at what it all means. Anyone looking to stay in still has to put forward that big missing chunk of the Remain campaign naemly what are the benefits. daft scaremongering still wont cut it.
Corbyn is an entirely different beast. Corbyn is Britain's Trump. God help us if we end up with him running the country.
https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2018/12/what-should-happen-next-what-really-matters-and-how-bad-is-this-crisis-my-new-brexit-deal-poll/
Lots of data. But what caught my eye, towards the bottom under the heading "Don't Panic", is the question "Do you think Brexit is more serious or less serious than each of the following?"
The financial crisis, winter of discontent, miners' strike, Suez etc.
Remainers think Brexit is much more serious than Leavers compared with all previous crises (except WW1 and WW2 which everyone accepts were more serious).
My take is that in a referendum there will be a differential turnout in favour of Remainers.
Any MP who by their shenanigans now lands us in a No Deal Brexit is an utter disgrace. Tarring, feathering and being sent to some remote Atlantic island to count weeds is what they deserve.
She said annual agreement by each of Westminster and the European parliament. But the EU will always say they have a veto so it does not move things on at all.
currently what we are seeing is most likely the best the polling gets for Remanin since there is no organised counter narrative.
Once a campaign begins those numbers will shift.
It would probably involve Princes Harry and William personally carrying Juncker's sedan chair around Brussels.
If we win - see you in 2040.
Was Thatcher a swivel-eyed loon in your view then?
No. A website that is that over represented by wealthier people who are able to use capital to generate an investment income that drives up everyone else’s energy bills and masquerade that as some kind of virtuous eneviromental statement.